Only post if your engine is BONE stock.

PS I'd also like to suggest if your car is pinging you take it to the dealer. DO NOT leave it with them. They will return the car to you saying "we couldn't hear it".

Instead take the shop foreman or chief tech out for a ride. Allow them to plug in the SSM assuming they have the cartridge that covers the STi. Show them the problem. Ask them to report formally report it as an issue to the tech line.

REMINDER: THIS POLL ALLOWS VOTING FOR MULTIPLE OPTIONS, DON'T FORGET THE LAST 3 OPTIONS RE ETHANOL, AND ECU BEHAVIOUR DURING/AFTER DETONATION.

On 93-octane it powers through the small stuff (det can only stuff), but reacts to the big detonation.

My assumption also is that people are using the water spray when the ambient temp is high or the engine is heat soaked.

I could have asked about temps, mileage etc but hard to correlate with the way polls work.

I am still breaking my STi and I haven't noticed any detonation yet. Now, if there is a problem, can we remedy it with an ECU flash from the dealer or aftermarket?

For anyone posting that their car is smooth, please be sure that you are someone who knows what detonation on a turbo engine sounds like. (ok, so it doesn't sound that different from a N/A engine but anyway).

If you DONT KNOW what detonation sounds like, please DON'T post that your car is running fine.

Also, if you car is running fine AND on 91-92, please post a quick note here.

Glenn;

My STi did ping on hills and mild acceleration up to 4K. It doesn't ping now at 650 miles.

My conclusion is that the dealer gave me the "free" first fillup using regular gas. They probably use the same gas for every new car and being in business myself, they likely use the lowest cost at a single pump for all the car deliveries.

At about half a tank on the dealer gas, I put in a octane booster, the kind that will not affect sensors. The pinging quite right then. QED.

Two tanks later and since then, there has been no pinging. Thats on Cal 91 alcohol mix smog fighter stuff. For me, the problem is over.

Mike McBride

I am running on 91 octane, 1200 miles on the motor, and it has been aroud 80F to 95F around here recently, and I haven't heard any pinging at all.

Now, this is my first Subaru and I am not sure if it sounds any different than pinging on any other car. But on most cars, it sounds like "tapping" sound, like someone took the head of a nail and taps it against a cast iron frying pan rapidly. Is that about accurate?

Originally posted by strangerq


Perhaps someone getting det. with their STI could record and post a link to a wav file.

Originally posted by hatchy
I am running on 91 octane, 1200 miles on the motor, and it has been aroud 80F to 95F around here recently, and I haven't heard any pinging at all.

Now, this is my first Subaru and I am not sure if it sounds any different than pinging on any other car. But on most cars, it sounds like "tapping" sound, like someone took the head of a nail and taps it against a cast iron frying pan rapidly. Is that about accurate?



That may be pre ignition, detonation sounds more like a bb being dropped into a coffee can. Sharp clicks or "plinks" as the car pulls though the power band.

http://www.turboxs.com/_images/12%20gear%20steep%20hill.wav

This was recorded on a WRX with a stock ECU running just an aftermarket boost controller though a knock sensor.

-Nathan

thanks nathan! geez, that really scares me. i have a stage 1 wrx and i just hope i'm not having that pinging going on in my motor. this is the silent pinging right? i would need some sort of listening device hooked up to my motor in order to hear it right? would it still occur if my car was running a bit rich?

I'm in CA so running 91. I'm pretty sure I know what pinging sounds like and so far mine's clean. I'm still running in so haven't tried laboring the engine much.

What does pulling the plugs prove?

If it does it every now and then you're unlikely to see a huge amount of evidence and besides they're iridium.

A recording from an acoustical/mechanical sensor is the best "proof".

Glenn

Hey Guys,

I think I am getting pinging on mine.
4th gear with the pedal to the floor, I hear whats sounds like tapping on a sheet of aluminum. Its a very light sound, but its there. The temps are @ about 88-95 deg F and the elevation is 5000 ft. Gas is Chevron 91 octane.
1050 miles on the odo.

(It actually makes the sound in just about every gear. Only in certain rev ranges though.)

Am I crazy?

I have 900 miles on my car and have been running 93 since day one. I have not had det or pinging. My car seems alot stronger at 900 miles than it did at 8 miles when I picked it up.

-justin

Originally posted by nmyeti


That may be pre ignition, detonation sounds more like a bb being dropped into a coffee can. Sharp clicks or "plinks" as the car pulls though the power band.

http://www.turboxs.com/_images/12%20gear%20steep%20hill.wav

This was recorded on a WRX with a stock ECU running just an aftermarket boost controller though a knock sensor.

-Nathan

Nathan I just built some det cans. Was there only one det in there or was there det at the end of the run right before you let off? Reason I ask is that at the higher RPMs the cans nearly blow my head off as everthing gets clumped together. Was there any other det in the high rpms there? The crackling like sound- det?

Originally posted by MP5


Nathan I just built some det cans. Was there only one det in there or was there det at the end of the run right before you let off? Reason I ask is that at the higher RPMs the cans nearly blow my head off as everthing gets clumped together. Was there any other det in the high rpms there? The crackling like sound- det?



That’s one of the reasons that using a knock sensor and a noise filter is my preference for listening to detonation.

There was a major event right at about the 2-second mark, and then the crackling in the high RPM was also detonation.

Play it in windows media player. Use the plenoptic: smoky lines or the spikes: spike visuals so you can actually SEE the knock that way as well as hear it.

The best way to tell Subaru about it is to take the pinging car to a dealer and show them.

Maybe the knock sensor is just deaf...

And what if, in order to fix this the car winds up with less than 300BHP even on 94? I'd rather have reliability than performance but I could imagine many people would feel cheated by not getting the advertised power on 94....

And don't forget that many of the west coast states don't have 93-94, just 91-92. My dealer was good enough to put 92 in, but my point is not every STi owner is running 93-94.

REMINDER: THIS POLL ALLOWS VOTING FOR MULTIPLE OPTIONS, DON'T FORGET THE LAST 3 OPTIONS RE ETHANOL, AND ECU BEHAVIOUR DURING/AFTER DETONATION.

I am told this is a good "repro case" for the pinging.

Drive uphill in 4th gear, around 3000-4000, hit WOT.



For the guy at 5000ft running 91 and ambient 85-95, I'd be leaning on the IC spray most of the time!

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
I am told this is a good "repro case" for the pinging.

Drive uphill in 4th gear, around 3000-4000, hit WOT.



For the guy at 5000ft running 91 and ambient 85-95, I'd be leaning on the IC spray most of the time!

Glenn, is the pinging very audible or do I need to do something to hear it? I just tried what you said to do and I did not hear any signs of pinging and this is with no ac or audio on. Do you have to listen very carefully and know what to listen for or is it pretty obvious? TIA

Glenn, is the pinging very audible or do I need to do something to hear it? I just tried what you said to do and I did not hear any signs of pinging and this is with no ac or audio on. Do you have to listen very carefully and know what to listen for or is it pretty obvious? TIA

I am told it is pretty obvious, sounds like a dwarf in your engine with a small hammer, or perhaps sounds like someone dropped a few ball bearings in a tin can.

The noise of the turbo can mask it, too.

If you're not sure, then just vote "not sure" on the survey.

A lot of the people here have had turbo cars prior to this (or even the WRX) and can readily spot det even with the turbo spooling.

IMHO pinging is not a big issue. It is what the ECM does in response to it that I care about. It should be able to learn that you're running 91 or 92 (or whatever) and be slightly less aggressive with timing and boost.

This thing could also be as simple as a bad batch of knock sensors, or misaligned knock sensors (they need to be installed at a specific rotational angle -- though I suspect misaligning them makes them pick up even more noise and false signals, I could be wrong)

Glenn

Originally posted by sube151
Hey Guys,

I think I am getting pinging on mine.
4th gear with the pedal to the floor, I hear whats sounds like tapping on a sheet of aluminum. Its a very light sound, but its there. The temps are @ about 88-95 deg F and the elevation is 5000 ft. Gas is Chevron 91 octane.
1050 miles on the odo.

(It actually makes the sound in just about every gear. Only in certain rev ranges though.)

Am I crazy?

Same thing happens with my car... but its in the low gears (1+2+3) where I usually notice it... I have the 1st phase 2.5L DOHC motor though (no turbo), and I know that the new EJ25t is totally different than the engine found in the 98rs, but maybe its a normal sound in the 2.5L DOHC motors? I dunno, since ive never been in an STi to hear it...

And no, I don't have a blown head gasket :cool:

How about we all chip in and fly Bob Rawle out here to sort it out for Subaru, eh?

Bob (of BRD, mentioned in the links above) was the guy who went for a run with me when RSquire's 22B was detting. Later he remapped the car (using Link stuff, of which he is the king).

So I guess that is a good option for those who want the ultimate solution and are willing to pay. :)

When it comes to mapping, there is no one else in Bob's class.

Been using 93 Mobil/Exxon....no problems here.

Reprogramming the ECU would invalidate the warranty.

FYI

Its interesting that there are more people with pinging with 93 octane than 92 or 91. Is it possible that with the slightly higher octane, the ECU does *too* much advance? I am running on 91 octane, with about 1300 miles, temps have been between 75-95 mostly, and no issues at all. Pulls hard in every gear, even with a full car on a sunny day (90F outside).

The poll data is inconsistant, I wonder if it *is* a faulty knock sensor.

Since we are trying to get to the root of this, I have some additional questions.

1)How much of the pinging/detonation is on a dyno? If it's mainly being seen on a dyno, what kind of fans are being run where?

I ask because heat soak with the TMIC is an issue when the car is sitting, and I don't know what methods the tuners use for keeping the TMIC cool, especially between dyno runs. The STi ecu may be a bit aggressive on advance, but it may be doing so on the assumption the car is on the road, not on a dyno. I've kept an eye on the tuning of my car, and dyno tuning vs. on road conditions crop up constantly.

2) Is anybody keeping track of which gas stations they are using and then getting ping/det afterwards?

Gas quality is always an issue here. Not just because of octane, but because of what is mixed into the gas as well. It's more than octane that separates gas in Japan vs. America. I have a feeling the STi runs better on relatively pure 91 octane vs. a 93-94 octane with lots of other agents in it.

Also, the sky hasn't fallen yet. :)

Seriously. There most certainly can be some initial run issues with a new engine, but let's not panic quite yet. This may actually be a relatively minor issue with the knock sensor, or a major one. It doesn't help anybody to state that it's already major, though, until it's proved to be.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Originally posted by shirokuma
Since we are trying to get to the root of this, I have some additional questions.

1)How much of the pinging/detonation is on a dyno? If it's mainly being seen on a dyno, what kind of fans are being run where?

I ask because heat soak with the TMIC is an issue when the car is sitting, and I don't know what methods the tuners use for keeping the TMIC cool, especially between dyno runs. The STi ecu may be a bit aggressive on advance, but it may be doing so on the assumption the car is on the road, not on a dyno. I've kept an eye on the tuning of my car, and dyno tuning vs. on road conditions crop up constantly.


We noticed detonation on the road during 2nd and 3rd gear pulls before we ever put the car on the dyno. Once we put the car on the dyno it was considerably easier to detect detonation as we were only hearing the larger events on the road.

Our fans are admittedly not adequate to simulate true road speeds, however coolant temperatures are always monitored and the intercooler is usually given a chance to actually cool after every dyno run.

As a side note to the TMIC vs. FMIC debate, the TMIC seems to work quite well even in "dyno room" conditions. We make what amount to 19-second pulls at full load and at the end of a dyno run the TMIC is hot on the inlet side, and cool on the outlet side.

93 Octane, about 700 miles and no pings yet. Tested a few times going up hill (at about 7000ft) in 4th, 5th.

TRS

Originally posted by ToddStratton
93 Octane, about 700 miles and no pings yet. Tested a few times going up hill (at about 7000ft) in 4th, 5th.


Did you keep track of which gas company? Thanks!

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

How much of a problem is this going to be?will Subaru take responsibility for this?will this be a hard problem to fix?Just want to get some opinions thanks.:D

I have well over 800 miles logged this past week. Tonight I decided to do a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gear pull. It was on an inclined freeway on ramp. I was short-shifting around 5k and when I got on it in 3rd gear (around 4000 rpm) I heard what sounded like a constant tapping of 2 marbles together. It sounded very similar to the 12 gear steep hill wav file. I let up I'm guessing 1/2 a second later when the tapping noise didn't go away. Is this det?? I'm using crappy SoCal 91 octane fuel from Chevron. Outside temps were 68 degrees. Now I'm scared to floor the car! :(

g_dejesus: yes, your description sounds exactly like what my car is doing.

To Paul's post:
1)How much of the pinging/detonation is on a dyno? If it's mainly being seen on a dyno, what kind of fans are being run where?

Other than "the tuners" everyone else seems to be on the street.

I'll tell you what my car is doing. My car was pinging in 4th pretty much since I picked it up. I watched the mechanic put 92 in it (Texaco). I have a log of the gas stations I have visitied (4 tanks worth I think). They are all "known good" stations that I frequent - ie they've caused me no problems with other turbo cars I've had.

My car pings mostly at WOT under heavy load (e.g. up hill). If I am using more revs rather than "short shifting" (to keep under the break limit) it seems to run just fine, or at least I can't hear the pinging.

So pretty much in 3rd, 4th or 5th at 3000-4000 RPM, WOT will produce it. AFAIK is is just a combination of too much boost and timing for the crappy west coast gas.

It doesn't ping in 1st or 2nd, there just isn't enough load on the engine to produce it.

This was all with ambient temps in the 60-70 range and me leaning on the IC spray pretty much all the time.

2) Is anybody keeping track of which gas stations they are using and then getting ping/det afterwards?

Yes. My car has pretty much given consistent pinging -- I've tried a few different brands/locations.

Some of the gas stations here say "may contain up to 10% ethanol". (hence the option in the poll)

Seriously. There most certainly can be some initial run issues with a new engine, but let's not panic quite yet. This may actually be a relatively minor issue with the knock sensor, or a major one. It doesn't help anybody to state that it's already major, though, until it's proved to be.

Agreed.

Well det isn't a good thing, but we haven't heard of a melted piston yet.

The common sense thing to do is use the dealer network in the way it was designed which is to report these issues (with a tech watching/listening) and let it get back to Subaru to figure out.

They're not going to launch a major investigation into it based on a BB thread.

To sum up my own feelings, this is an annoyance. It means maybe I exercise caution in driving the car or using its full potential until I hear more on the issue. Maybe I have to drive 30 miles to get some of this mythical 94 octane (with 10% ethanol...!) that is sold here.

By big concern is that it pretty much ignores the knock sensor.

We obviously expected detonation on anything less than 94. I expected the ECU would learn from that and get less aggressive and I'd wind up with a 285 BHP on 92 octane everyday kind of car.

I was angrier about my Saab dealer who messed up a brake job last week. (new rotors but used old pads from warped rotors...!)

And I still think the car is the cat's ass, bees knees, dogs b... well you get the idea.

Glenn

For those that are having pinging / det problems, what are you doing about it? Have you contacted Subaru or brought it up to your dealer? Has anyone checked to see if the knock sensor is working? Has anyone tried retarding base timing to see if it would go away?

Subaru designed this engine specifically for the US market. The percentage of people reporting pinging and det is pretty high. At least the EVO's ECU responds to knock by pulling timing. They are running higher compression and more boost. They're running 135 hp/liter. Our motors are loafing at only 120 hp/liter. This is frustrating having a brand new car where whenever I floor it I have to turn down the radio to listen for det so I know to let up.

The way I understand it, the "typical" ECU pulls timing once it experiences det. Each time you accelerate, the computer re-does the calc, comparing the factory advance map averaged with what it has had to do in the past. Each time it pulls back, it records what it did, and adjusts it for the next time. So, the timing and detonation problems "should" smooth out over time, as the ECU learns how to react to the fuel in your area.

In this case you may experience det for a little while after getting the car, but less and less as time goes on. Is this what people are seeing, or is there no improvement over time?

So, the timing and detonation problems "should" smooth out over time, as the ECU learns how to react to the fuel in your area.

In this case you may experience det for a little while after getting the car, but less and less as time goes on. Is this what people are seeing, or is there no improvement over time?


This is pretty much the nugget of it. How much time should take for the correction to occur?

2 tanks? 4 tanks? 6 tanks?

Glenn

ive got ~450 miles so far...and ive pulled up to 140 in 6th on the hwy. (pulls strong at 140 i might add)...but i havent heard any weird noises. no ticking. no tapping. i still dont have the stereo in there either, so i think i wouldve heard it.

btw, ive been using 93 octane...first fill up with shell (gas used to get up to 130 2x)...second with mobil (gas used to get to 140). hope you guys find some resolve for this...

Good article on clubwrx on detonation:

Detonation Indicators

The best indication of detonation is the pinging sound that cars, particularly old models, make at low speeds and under load. It is very difficult to hear the sound in well insulated luxury interiors of today's cars. An unmuffled engine running straight pipes or a propeller turning can easily mask the characteristic ping. The point is that you honestly don't know that detonation is going on. In some cases, the engine may smoke but not as a rule. Broken piston ring lands are the most typical result of detonation but are usually not spotted. If the engine has detonated visual signs like broken spark plug porcelains or broken ground electrodes are dead giveaways and call for further examination or engine disassembly.

It is also very difficult to sense detonation while an engine is running in a remote and insulated dyno test cell. One technique seems almost elementary but, believe it or not, it is employed in some of the highest priced dyno cells in the world. We refer to it as the "Tin Ear". You might think of it as a simple stethoscope applied to the engine block. We run a ordinary rubber hose from the dyno operator area next to the engine. To amplify the engine sounds we just stick the end of the hose through the bottom of a Styrofoam cup and listen in! It is common for ride test engineers to use this method on development cars particularly if there is a suspicion out on the road borderline detonation is occurring. Try it on your engine; you will be amazed at how well you can hear the different engine noises.

The other technique is a little more subtle but usable if attention is paid to EGT (Exhaust Gas Temperature). Detonation will actually cause EGTs to drop. This behavior has fooled a lot of people because they will watch the EGT and think that it is in a low enough range to be safe, the only reason it is low is because the engine is detonating.

The only way you know what is actually happening is to be very familiar with your specific engine EGT readings as calibrations and probe locations vary. If, for example, you normally run 1500 degrees at a given MAP setting and you suddenly see 1125 after picking up a fresh load of fuel you should be alert to possible or incipient detonation. Any drop from normal EGT should be reason for concern. Using the "Tin Ear" during the early test stage and watching the EGT very carefully, other than just plain listening with your ear without any augmentation, is the only way to identify detonation. The good thing is, most engines will live with a fairly high level of detonation for some period of time. It is not an instantaneous type failure.

Good stuff thanks. I have not heard anything unusual out of mine. I am still breaking it in so I have not been above 4000 RPM. We usually have pretty decent gas in this area so hopefully this will not be an issue. I don't know if this has been mentioned but I avoid gas with Ethanol in it at all costs, every car I have ever put it in, runs like crap. Anyway this thread has been very informative so far keep it up.

Thanks,

CoreySTi04

I contacted my dealer and they spoke with their GM. They said they're contacting SOA about this and want to schedule a time I can drop off my car. We'll see what happens..

I have 1167 miles, use Shell 93 only(will drive to find even with the light on), Houston Tx, Temps have been in the high 90's and low 100's and I have not had a problem at all. And, believe me I know what pinging sounds like. My 1970 Mustang would knock on anything all the time unless I ran Shell 93. I have also talked to one the the gasoline enginers here in Houston that works for Shell and he said what they sell in Texas as 93 runs about 95-98 oct. I also refused the fill up by the Dealership and put the good stuff in.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


This is pretty much the nugget of it. How much time should take for the correction to occur?

2 tanks? 4 tanks? 6 tanks?

Glenn

It isn't really dependent on the number of tanks you fill up. It is dependent on the amount of timing it has to pull, and the number of times you push through the detonation. To put the least amount of strain on the internals, you should get it accustomed to lower loads (level ground or shallow hills) before pushing it through higher loads (mountains). But lifting through the detonation, when you hear it, will actually make the learning process take longer. Personally, I am not going to push it too hard until I get 3000 mi or more.

But that is just because we are going to have kids soon, and I probably won't get another toy for 18-20 years.

Interesting point. I broke in properly and no pings on 91 octane gas. Kept it under 5K until about 900 miles, and didn't visit redline until about 1100 miles. Hit the rev limiter for the first time yesterday :rolleyes:

We've posted a small write up on our website about this issue that you guys might want to read.

http://www.turboxs.com/turboxs_tech_101.htm


-Nathan

Has anyone with pinging tried a bottle of octane booster?

STP and NOS blue or red label should be fine to test with.

Just wondering :confused:

Originally posted by urs4


My Scoobynoob question of the day, how is the UTEC going to help the ping go away without retarding the timing to reduce power?
My take on this situation, and correct me if I'm wrong here and I hope that I am, is that timing is too advanced and the knock sensors are not communicating properly with the ECM in order to pull back timing enough to avoid the ping.

I've never heard detonation on an Audi w/dual knock sensors. Does the UTEC use a more sensitive knock sensor?

Even with a UTEC you will not be able to run the same calibrations as the stock ECU. In fact if you follow the same tuning strategy as the stock car for boost and fuel settings and then you lower the timing advance you’ll end up with less power.

I suspect most of the problem comes from the hump at 4000rpms. I’d run a more conventional EJ20ish timing curve in this area and try to maximize the power elsewhere. It's my real hope that Subaru will tune this out with a re-flash.

I asked SOA about the detonation issues that some of you are experiencing (providing this link to them) and here is what they said:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your e-mail inquiry regarding technical information on Subaru vehicles. Our records do not indicate a common concern with detonation on 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX STi models. Unfortunately, we cannot rely on information found on the internet forums as the accuracy of the information cannot be verified.

Informal internet polls do not have any statistical validity, as typically, people who do not have problems tend not to report their experience. Tt is typically only those who have problems (or think they have problems) who report their concerns. These concerns must be verified by a Subaru dealer in order to be validated.

The link you provided indicated most people have not had a concern with this issue. If you purchase a 2004 STi you are covered by the same 3/36 and 5/60 factory warranty all other Subaru vehicles are sold with. Provided that you are using fuel of the correct octane and quality, detonation will not occur in a properly functioning vehicle..

If this should become a common problem, which we do not anticipate, Subaru would issue a recall, service campaign, or service bulletin in regards to it. Thus far, there are no known issues with the STi models. If you have further questions or if you would like to discuss your concerns in more detail, please do not hesitate to contact me directly at 1-800-SUBARU3. Thank you!

Samir Hasan
Case #506772-----------------------------------------------------------

So, I am interested in what the dealer says if any of you with pinging who brought their cars to the dealer. What is their remedy? de-tune the car? new ecu flash?

Why doesn't anyone have reports back from dealers yet on whats being done about the pinging?

That email from SOA does not make me feel anymore comfortable going out and buying a STI this year in California.

Originally posted by gills
How much will it take for them to actually do a ECU reflash for all STi owners and is this the only option that you can think of to fix this detting problem?

This here is the problem. ECU reflash for all STi owners. Why???

The poll so far has indicated that it is not a 100% problem. In fact, the email reply from SOA is quite correct in pointing out that mainly people with problems will be replying to the poll. This is similar to the transmission complaints for the WRX - when you look at the threads, it seemed like an enormous problem, but when you started actually counting heads, it wasn't nearly as widespread as people believed.

We are still in the break-in period of a high-performance sports vehicle. At least on this side of the pond, STi's and other 280hp Subaru's usually take a good 3000-5000miles to be fully broken in and past the reallly green phase. Just as the chances are that there is a real problem, there's equal chances that the det/ping will fade when the engines loosen up, when the ecu gets some miles under it's belt, etc. A lot of this seems to be "det/ping in relation to the WRX turbo", which is a different beast with a very conservative map.

If this is a major problem, then the fastest way to a solution is to keep a level head about it and get clear data. Going to the dealership to have them take a look at the problem is mandatory - a good paper trail always helps.

The very fact that some people, who do know what to listen for, are not having problems even on 91 octane points towards there being some specific factor in this issue that's not inherent in every STi. Whether it's bad gas, bad break-in habits, mis-aligned knock sensors, minor engine calibration issues, or worse, the only way we'll find out is by keeping clear data and by having Subaru service departments deal with it till a solution is found.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Originally posted by gills


Nathan,

I read earlier that you were given contact information to talk to a representative from subaru. Have you discussed anything with them yet and if so, how are they responding to the situation? How much will it take for them to actually do a ECU reflash for all STi owners and is this the only option that you can think of to fix this detting problem?
Also, from what i gather on your technical short story there, the turboback exhaust actually relieved the detting problems? If so, i'm ordering one before i even pick my car up.

tom

Tom,
2 things;

1. I gave contact information… contact information has not been given to me, nor have I been contacted by anyone at SOA, STI, or any other organization that may have interests here.
2. The Turbo back exhaust system did NOT cause the detonation to go away. The Scatter-shot dyno results were still very much there, and the ECU still would take full advantage of it's ignition timing advance authority range every so often. The car did run a few more "happy" passes on the dyno, but the detonation is still very much there every few dyno runs.

Paul,
We are dealing with an ECU that is supposed to have a certain degree of detonation learning. Our dyno experience is showing that the ECU's memory is very short indeed. The detonation we experience on our STI is almost always at the same RPM at full load. The ECU will retard timing for about 4-5 dyno runs and then the cycle starts all over again.

The issue isn't that the motor is tight, it's that the ECU is displaying no propensity to learn it's way around rough spots. As far as I know no amount of “break-in” is going to change the software in the ECU that deals with ignition advance learning.

Out of curiosity....
Has anybody reset the ecu to trigger
the "learning mode" again? Perhaps a reset with some hard driving may cause the ecu to react differently.


On a side note, I borrowed the Subaru service monitor. The 2004 cartridge has 2 monitor functions that I found for the knock sensor. The first is the "knock correction" function. It shows the advance/retard of the timing. The second is the knock on/off switch, which I am assuming changes when the sensor hears knock.

I only got to borrow the scanner during the evening. With lower temps, I havent been hearing any dets from the car. The scan tool showed (assuming I read it correctly) that for knock correction, the ecu was being advanced 6+. The knock switch was reported as being off for the whole time I used it( mainly guessing that if it detected knock, the scan tool would show the switch as "on".)

I'm going to grab the scanner at lunch tomorrow to see if I read things differently.

People, go to your dealer and have them listen if you seriously know or even think you have a problem. Make sure the car has been run for some time and then take a tech for a spin. Writing SOA and complaining does nothing to help your situation immediately, how do they know who you are or if you even own the car. You could be some jealous EVO owner trying to to get the STi detuned ;) I wouldn't be suprised if the ECU had a more advanced learning method (AKA - long term) than people are giving it credit for.

Like Eric said, use your warranty, its there for a reason. You are scaring people including myself, and I have no det, or do I now?

Originally posted by wolverine


Uhh... I think you are wrong.... That wav file is dated March 10, 2003 at 13:55.



The file was generated in Australia on a 2.0WRX. I'll check the circumstances of the actual run, but iirc it was a stock ecu and a boost controller run up a hill at WOT in 2nd gear. I don't remember if the car was fed piss-poor AUS gas before the run, but Jon's timeframe of the recording is fairly accurate.

The file is not meant to be an STI knock file, but rather a demonstration as to what knock sounds like. As I’ve said before when I get the STI back up on the dyno I’ll try to make a few recordings off the STI's knock sensor and an aftermarket knock sensor.

As for us talking to Subaru about the problem, our dealership people have been made aware, but they act as if we know much more about the problem than they do. I have not pushed this up the chain of command with them because frankly I don’t expect or desire warrantee coverage. I intend to solve this problem myself rather than wait for Subaru to address my concerns. If Subaru gets there first so be it. I suspect they are aware of the problem.

Originally posted by VVVV


You can take this one step further. If you read the detailed account of what the guys at TurboXS did, you will see why they don't take it back to SOA. They state that they picked it up from the dealership, drove it once, then put it on the dyno for WOT runs. Unless that first drive was from Chicago to California, they did not do a break in at all, much less the proper break in. The cylinders are probably full of metal shards sticking out of the burnt glazed oil on the cylinder walls.




We can argue about break-in procedures another day, but I’ve had far more trouble with WRXs that were not run hard in the first 1000 miles than WRX's that were run hard first thing.

The statement "Metal shards sticking out the burnt glazed oil on the cylinder walls" is more than a little dramatic. The car had 350 miles before it ran on the dyno. It now has over 700 miles on it and as of today the detonation still hasn't gone away.

What exactly is going to change in another 800 miles? Are the rings going to seat further? Won’t that cause HIGHER cylinder pressures which in turn will lead to MORE detonation?

My main concern with the det is the effect it has on the engine and the implications it has for the longevity of the engine.

How are you going to be able to prove that your engine failure on the day after the warranty expires was due to detonation during the first few months of ownership?

I guess a history of detonation complaints and follow up through your dealer would be a good start to your case. So if you are having this problem why wouldn’t you bring it in to the dealer?

I’m not surprised that SOA issued the statement they did. They can’t make statements that would affect the whole company light-heartedly. I also think they ARE doing something about it but can’t let on yet for the same reason.

The cause of the det and Subaru’s response will effect my decision to buy. I have an STi on order but I have been thinking of getting my deposit back until this gets sorted out. I don’t want to buy a new car unless I have complete control over its durability otherwise I might as well buy a used one and save some cash.

I would just like to add that after reading this thread I decided to test my STi out and see if I could get it to detonate. Well sure enough in 4th or 5th gear around 3-4k rpms at wot I get pinging.

This is in California with 91 octane gas. I will be taking it the dealer after I fill up again from a better gas station and still experience detonation.

Originally posted by VVVV

I have been watching this thread for three weeks, and the percentage of people experiencing det keeps going down as more people answer the poll. I attribute it to all of the abusive tuners getting the first installment of cars. If there is a problem inherent in the design, SOA better fix it.




This thread hasn't been live for 3 weeks, and in the last week or so the percentage of people reporting detonation has increased about 5%. In fact 21 of 79 respondents have reported detonation for their STI.

Now on to your other concerns;

1. Have you ever torn down a Subaru motor that had a "hard break-in" on the dyno or on the street? If not you are really not qualified to testify as to what happens in such a case. Phil's car for instance has had the hardest life of any WRX I’ve known to date (with the possible exception of mine). We've broken and torn down Phil’s motor in the name of science. His cylinder walls were in excellent shape. On my motor when I popped the head gasket testing out a new Garrett T3/T4 hybrid turbo my cylinder walls were clean, smooth and you could still see the "factory fresh" cross hatches. I had a Subaru master tech comment to me that my motor looked far better than those of some of his customers that were far less abusive. It is also no coincidence that on the dyno and at the track our "broken in hard" motors tend to far out perform those that had a much easier life.

2. Latent heat is always a problem and the dyno presents a "worse case" scenario when dealing with heat loads on the intercooler, radiator, and oil cooler. The STI coolant system seems to be quite effective. The coolant temps will heat up to the mid 90 degree range at the end of a dyno pull demonstrating effective heat transfer, and then cools down quite quickly to normal "idle" temperature demonstrating the ability to dissipate heat in an efficient manor. Coolant temperatures are monitored at all points in every dyno run and the car is cooled down after every dyno run to its standard idle temperature.

The STI intercooler is a relatively low mass unit that dumps latent heat very quickly. The intercooler tank on the inlet side is usually fairly warm at the end of a dyno run, but the outlet side is still quite cool after the dyno pull. Before the next run both the outlet and inlet is cool/cold to the touch.

If we were only experiencing this detonation on the dyno I’d agree that it might be solely to the higher loads and higher heat issues of running the car at wide open throttle in door

3. I am not posting this information to sell parts. I was asked by one of the guys if the exhaust "cured" the problems, and I flatly told him "no, our car still has detonation issues." If i were posting this information to sell parts, i would, as i pointed out in my write up, use or lower baseline number coupled with our higher exhaust plot to show a 40+hp gain by installing the exhaust system. That's not how we operate.

If you personally choose to believe that we are to blame for our detonation issues, or that this is not an issue with which you should be concerned, that's fine with me, but in doing so you have to call into question some of the most experienced Subaru guys on this board from Dan at Godspeed, Shiv at Vishnu, Glen Wallace, and many more that clearly know what to listen to and have reported detonation.

The last thing everyone needs to understand is that we are not implying that EVERY car suffers from this problem. I managed to get a ride in another STI today, and it had some small crackles of detonation at the start of the test drive, but clearly the ECU learned its way around the problems because by the end of drive the knock headset was all quite.

Please post if y ou've been to a dealer. It would be appreciated if you'd indicate it in your subject line so we don't have to read the rest of this. :rolleyes:

And you really don't have to let the dealer detune the car if you don't want him to.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=369666
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=369685&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

Just thought I’d throw these 2 links into the discussion.

Posts by both Shiv and CT are relevant to this thread.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Ok, here's my story. Today is the hottest day since I got my car. 83 on the factory outside temp gauge and 81 acording to Accuweather.com

1600 miles on the car.
93 Octane from the same Mobil, except one tank at 1200 miles from an EXXON.

Normal driving with out sitting for extended periods = NO Pinging

With the car up to temp, sat in heavy traffic at a light for about 7 minutes. = PINGS AT 4000RPM, but that's it.

Instantly after winding out that gear I hit the IC sprayer, decelerate and perform the same "test" = NO PINGING

So, yes my car pings, but only if the IC is heat soaked.

I will bring it up with the service manager at my dealership saturday and see what he says.

Keith

What I think would be a fair test to check for ping/det in their STi is to do five or more 3rd or 4th gear pulls from 2.5k to around 6k and listen for knock around the 4k regions, making sure between each run to let the car cool down and hit the IC spray. This test should see which cars are prone to pinging and if the ECU can adapt to occurances of pinging/det.

Agreed.

I talked with Ross of AVO about the situation. He couldn't give a definite answer, not being at ground zero himself. He said that the dyno queens may be pinging/detting if they are already getting blowbye. Otherwise, it's probably a problem with gas.

He's been working on the JDM STi's, and the latest one he worked on, he had to pull 8 degrees of timing off the top end after leaning it out from it's ultra-rich standard environment and tuning in the exhaust and other components added. From his POV, the first thing to go on a USDM STi that'd going to be modded is a computer of some sort to address these and other potential issues. Over here they run with some pretty aggressive timing ("it advances +20 over there? That's pretty normal" is what he said) and real rich a/f ratios, and feels that unless you have some method of pulling timing it's going to det after modding.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Garret, make sure you take it to the dealer service dept and show them. How many miles do you have?

Will be going to the dealer very shortly.

I can't wait for an ignition controll device.

Currently there are 515 miles on the vehicle. Vehicle has had nothing be Chevron 92.

I am very interested to find out what the service department has to say about this. I sincerely doubt that they will have a solution. Last time I called and spoke to a service rep, I had to explain to him what detonation was.

We will see how this plays out and I will update this thread as things unravel.

Thanks Glen.

Originally posted by shirokuma

What I was trying to point out though was that heat soak from stop n go traffic will probably lead itself to det/ping. While a FMIC would possibly help here, even it gets heatsoak. Water spray is there for a reason.


Paul,

Water spray is there to cool the intercooler and produce more power via a denser, cooler flow of air.

It is not there to keep the car from detonating. You can't rely on water for that, particularly when there is no automatic mode! You should be able to rely on sane timing advance to keep detonation away on an 8.something:1 compression engine running only 14.5 psi of boost, though.

Originally posted by VVVV


Thank you for posting your sources. Now I can say for certainty that you are the ONLY tuner who seems to believe that the ECU is not learning properly.

Shiv didn't mention anything about the ECU having problems. He said yes to det, nothing more.

Did you read different threads than I did?

If the ECU is causing the engine to detonate with 24 degrees of advance (24 degrees!) at 4000RPM, it isn't doing the right thing, period.

Hell, I run 24 degrees of advance with 117 octane, not with 93.

Originally posted by VVVV

.

Also in one of those threads, you claim that you don't care how hard you are on the engine during break in, because in 40k miles, you will have a different engine in there anyway.



You must enjoy making things up. First it was three weeks, and then it was “the % of the poll reporting detonating decreasing” now it’s this.

Below is every post I made in those 2 threads.



CT,
Have you guys gotten a set of det-cans on the STI yet? I am more than a little concerned about ours even in bone stock form.

-Nathan





Ours is similar, but it doesn't fall off nearly as bad as some of the dyno plots I’ve seen, but then again Subaru clearly decided that 14.5psi wasn't enough boost for our little car either. I am very concerned about people running this car in stock form on even 93-octane, much more so concerned with people turning up the boost. Once Ecutek is live on the new ECU, I may have to use one of our licenses just to make this thing drivable on pump gas, but I’d sure like to have some of the UTEC’s knock control on this motor asap, as clearly Subaru once again missed the boat. I’ve taken to calling the STI “big bang;” what did they expect from a 22-25 degree at peak torque?
-Nathan




Ours seems to like 15.8-16psi totally stock. It does the "STI slow spool" at low RPMs and makes peak boost around 4k iirc when it finally wants to make peak torque. The car then will hold almost 14psi to redline. Peak power is made at around 5800 then it drops 26hp to redline. Oddly enough, our A/F at redline is pretty consistent with our readings at 5800rpms. Timing advance is also ramping up a bit more than I expected as well for one that drops almost 100ft/lbs in the last 2000rpms of its power band.





CT,
I just wanted to bring this thread to your attention.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...408#post4016408

-Nathan


I don't think you are a reliable source of information as you are putting words in my mouth that were not there.

In any case, I really think you, and some of the other people here, need to stop taking this personal. I am not saying “the STI sucks and you were stupid for thinking of buying one” I am not saying that this issue is the “end of the world.” Or that every STI owner is suffering from this problem. I am not suggesting that everyone buy TurboXS products and their problems will go away. I am simply stating that our car detonates. Glens' car detonates, CT's car detonates, Dan’s car detonates, Garret's car detonates, g_deJesus' car detonates... On and on it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

Originally posted by nmyeti




The file was generated in Australia on a 2.0WRX. I'll check the circumstances of the actual run, but iirc it was a stock ecu and a boost controller run up a hill at WOT in 2nd gear.

The .wav file was made on a "Stock Car, stock ECU, stock exhaust, no UTEC, no Unichip, no BC, standard boost. Using standard unleaded petrol (91 octane). Steep Hill WOT"

-Nathan

no one would purposely release a calibration which had detonation under expected operating conditions, to suggest otherwise is just alarmist & silly.

resolving an issue like this is not something which will happen instantly & it will not be done by dealers or anyone who works for SoA. remember that SoA is a _marketing_ organization & their dealers will be the conduit thru which the technical solution comes from FHI.

I am confident that FHI will come up with a resolution to the problem. if the experienced tuners here are able to point to what they believe the ECU is doing wrong, it would seem a relatively simple thing for FHI to see the same thing & to eliminate the problem, giving us an engine that doesn't have the problem.

I wonder whether the problem won't have it's root cause in the combination of an overly agressive calibration (the adding of timing advance when it's not the correct thing to do) and knock sensors (or knock sensor installation) which does not let the ECU know that the problem is there to correct for.



Ben

Has anyone gottin a CEL from this problem?

J

I agree with Ben. Let's hope SOA alerts FHI to the issue, so that the problem can be corrected (likely by a reflash of the ECU) on forthcoming STI shipments. It would be nice if only the first couple of allottments had this as an issue, so the goodwill of Subaru is not compromised unduly and customers feel that their concerns are dealt with promptly. Assuming the problem is real, in an odd way this problem provides Subaru with an opportunity to enhance their reputation among enthusiasts if they find a solution quickly.

well, here is what we should do, we should have a vey well known mechanic or maybe Nick (or whoever is president of NASIOC) write up a letter in behalf of all NASIOC members (that own a STi) explaining the detonation issue on a TOTALLY STOCK STi and the fact that is just plain unaceptable to have a car detonating right out of the dealer. Then we can discuss their answers.

On another note, I am not really concern with this mild pinging simply because ECUtek will have their re-flashing software up in 3-4 months. After which the proper tuner can correct the flaws in timing and fuel and even improve overall ECU maping like Shiv has done with its Stage Sub-Zero while retaining factory parts and warranty. And of course for the aggressive upgraders.... you will have the doors open for crazy maps but that's another thread.

Besides once we can tap into the STi's ECU it will be possible to pinpoint with GREATER accuracy the cause of this detonation and put pressure on SOA if we find that there is more to this than just a mild correction of timing or other cause.

now.... if there was just a way to measure how bad that detonation is...

Something that might help with all this pinging stuff and worries about proper break-in and warantee denial. A company called Davis makes a gizmo called the CarChip. It's a little solid state recording tool that plugs into the car's OBD-II port. The E/X model records your choice or 4 of the following: RPM, throttle position, engine load, fuel pressure, fuel system status, short-term fuel trim, long-term fuel trim, battery voltage, timing advance, coolant temperature, air flow rate, intake air temperature, intake manifold pressure, and oxygen sensor voltage. It does this every 5 seconds, and holds 300 hours of data (12.5 days of drive time). You then download the data to a computer and can save it and plot it. With one of these, you can:

1. PROVE that you have not abused the car and PROVE that you followed the break-in instructions.

2. Record all instances of pinging (as long as the ECU throws a code). This can also be correlated with timing advance.

Costs $180.

http://www.davisnet.com/drive/products/list_drive.asp?grp=c1

ps: I don't work for these people or anything, I just think it would be a useful tool.

Originally posted by nmyeti


I don't think you are a reliable source of information as you are putting words in my mouth that were not there.

In any case, I really think you, and some of the other people here, need to stop taking this personal. I am not saying “the STI sucks and you were stupid for thinking of buying one” I am not saying that this issue is the “end of the world.” Or that every STI owner is suffering from this problem. I am not suggesting that everyone buy TurboXS products and their problems will go away. I am simply stating that our car detonates. Glens' car detonates, CT's car detonates, Dan’s car detonates, Garret's car detonates, g_deJesus' car detonates... On and on it goes, where it stops, nobody knows.

Sorry. I'll stop talking out of my ass. I am counting the minutes until my STi gets here, and I did take it personal. I just didn't want to believe that the ECU may have serious short term memory problems. Now I see that I should worry more about my own short term memory.

After waiting so long for this moment, I am in denial that the STi is any less perfect than the image in my head. And the det problem hit too close to home, since here in Colorado, 91 octane is the best we can get. I sincerely apologise for all the snide comments I made.

Originally posted by Austin
It's been stated in this thread before - any fix will be a result of complaints to dealers, which will be forwarded to SOA. SOA will, in turn, forward the information to FHI, who will tell SOA what to do/how to do it. SOA will inform the dealers, and the dealers will perform the work within their technical mandate.


Amen to that! If youve got a problem take it to the dealer.Even if they do nothing make sure it's documented so SOA can at least recognize their mite be a problem.

Rudy :D

I just took the STi for a spin up some hills in 4th. I think I heard some pinging between 2000-2500rpm. i did it a few times and every time I heard it. So this afternoon I'm going to get my friend to ride in the car with me to make sure I'm not going crazy. I'm scheduled at the dealer on monday for an alinement so I'll take a tech out with me and see what he says.

I've got the pinging/det for sure. I'm going to run this tank out and try 100 octane and work my way down to 91 octane.

Detonation can be a serious. Pinging is a lighter form of detonation so to speak, but turning a blind eye to this can be very costly.

What I'm wondering is why not all of us are being effected by this problem. We may need to isolate this problem futher.

This is what I think we need to do.

If your not getting the det/pinging please post your ECU revision and the type of fuel that your using. We can then track the different ECU's and identify ECU types with/without the problem.
The guys with the problem need to research your type of ECU and post it.

Now after that we will know where we stand. The ECU's revision will have a release date and we'll be able to match it to our car's release date. With this information we will know if map changes were made and then the guys with the earlier ECU can try to have this issue addressed.

The solution may be in a re-flashing to get the permanent fix. Trying to mix the fuel (for the rest of our lives) is probally not the most effective way of handling this problem.

The question is how do we get the re-flash if this is the case and who will pay for this. I think we can deal with this after we isolate the problem.

I hope that some one from SOA is seeing this, so they can aid us in resolving this issue. Because the Det problem can be fatal, they are already indication that they (SOA) will activate the abuse clause in the warranty if deem so, but mind you this Det problem is not abuse from us and that we are noticing this during the break in period. I myshelf have be adhering to the breakin policy and just started to increase the RPM's/Boost and then noticed the deting. This is not abuse. So lets jump on it while it's fresh.

Here is a side note, also have a EVO and its not deting, but it is a gas HOG. It's fuel/timing map may rich enough to prevent it.

WRXzard

There's only been very few shipment of the car... do you think
they will have diff ECU revisions in the same shipment??

Also, someone mentioned that spark plugs... should the owners
report the plugs that came with their car as well??

What gas are your STi and EVO running?
91s???



Originally posted by WRXzard
I've got the pinging/det for sure. I'm going to run this tank out and try 100 octane and work my way down to 91 octane.

Detonation can be a serious. Pinging is a lighter form of detonation so to speak, but turning a blind eye to this can be very costly.

What I'm wondering is why not all of us are being effected by this problem. We may need to isolate this problem futher.

This is what I think we need to do.

If your not getting the det/pinging please post your ECU revision and the type of fuel that your using. We can then track the different ECU's and identify ECU types with/without the problem.
The guys with the problem need to research your type of ECU and post it.

Now after that we will know where we stand. The ECU's revision will have a release date and we'll be able to match it to our car's release date. With this information we will know if map changes were made and then the guys with the earlier ECU can try to have this issue addressed.

The solution may be in a re-flashing to get the permanent fix. Trying to mix the fuel (for the rest of our lives) is probally not the most effective way of handling this problem.

The question is how do we get the re-flash if this is the case and who will pay for this. I think we can deal with this after we isolate the problem.

I hope that some one from SOA is seeing this, so they can aid us in resolving this issue. Because the Det problem can be fatal, they are already indication that they (SOA) will activate the abuse clause in the warranty if deem so, but mind you this Det problem is not abuse from us and that we are noticing this during the break in period. I myshelf have be adhering to the breakin policy and just started to increase the RPM's/Boost and then noticed the deting. This is not abuse. So lets jump on it while it's fresh.

Here is a side note, also have a EVO and its not deting, but it is a gas HOG. It's fuel/timing map may rich enough to prevent it.

WRXzard

So much speculation.

The best course of action at this stage is to take the car to your dealer and complain and give them a chance to log it with SOA, take readings from the Select monitor etc.

This kind of thing can be caused by something as simple as the brass restrictor in the boost pipe controling the waste gate being 0.1mm too small, it could be nothing at all to do with the ECU map.

You guys could be going round in circles and getting nowhere for months, go through the proper chanells if you want a rectification, otherwise you are never going to have a satisfactory fix.

Dear johnfelstead

I'm not speculation anything. I have Dets and its apparent that other people are from other area's as well. From East Coast 93 octane to west coast 91 there is no speculation in that. This is something real.

In regards to the ECU. From 2002 to 2003 there are 9 different
ECU revisions. (I speak from fact. I have access to them.)

You can say go through proper channels! but it seems that the channel on not in service.

If you notice that some people are being told that its an octane issue, which we know. But I won't waste time bantering back and forth. SOA will address this issue when enough complaints are made, but there is no way you can deny that this is the forum to collect data from and that if one can collect useful information, to be used in addressing this issue.

Point in case.

This thread. If it were not for this thread I would be thinking that
I had an isolated issue and would think that its octane ect....

So please dont discourage the people from this thread to collect useful information concerning this problem.

It is very difficult for manfg to even think re-call.

Also
Yes, 91 Octane for both EVO and STi, Same gas station.

It was talk that this was an concern that that changes were made. I have the tendency to beleive this because not all STi's are having this problem.

Just trying to fault isolate. part of that is collecting data to perform trend analysis.

As someone said.

You can be part of the problem or part of the solution.

I rather be part of a solution. Lets just get it fixed and then we can commend each other on a job well done.

WRXzard

there will only be a job well done when EVERY OWNER with an STI WITH A PINGING OR DET PROBLEM BRINGS IT TO THE DEALER TO COMPLAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!we need ACTION then you will get REACTION.:D

I did not say there isnt a problem, i said people are specualting on what the cause of the problem is.

The facts are quite simple, unless you take your car back to the dealer and complain, NOTHING will be done by SOA to rectify the problem because they wont see a problem exists.

It's not people on this thread who will get this fixed, it's people going to their dealer and screeming bloody murder about buying a $31K car that is in danger of blowing itself up for whatever reason that may be.

People playing amateur detective, which the majority of people on this thread are doing, will achieve nothing.

If this thread was full of people saying they went to the dealer and the dealer did nothing, then this aproach would be more understandable and valid, but that isnt the case so far.

I know Glenn Wallace very well and i believe him when he says there is a det issue, so dont confuse what i am saying with not believeing there is a problem, i just think you guys need to focus your energies in areas where you may get some action/ a solution.

Originally posted by essogas
I have made my dealer aware of this issue and they have said they delivered 4 Stis so far and not one has come back with any kind of problem or complaint (so far).

Never have wiser or truer words been spoken! And until the dealers start telling SOA that there is a problem, there will be NO problem. Because there is no problem until it is validated by the dealer. Time to just start skipping over posts that don't begin with something like "I went into the dealer today and...."

does ping only happen when the engine is running? I hear sound's after I trun off my car from my engine...like gravel falling...is that ping?

Pinging, or detonation, only happens when they are running, usually at high throttle positions near the engine's torque peak and under load (going up hill, starting low in RPM range for a given gear). The tinking you hear after driving are just the various metals cooling down.

---- My test experience today to see if my STi will ping ----

I finally passed my break-in today so I changed the oil and went out for a spin on one of my favortite mountain roads. I finished my break in staying under 4000 rpms (except a few times briefly up to 4500 or so). I never went WOT during break-in, but steadily started using more and more throttle. I have used 93 octane since the original tank of 91 (I assume) was gone. I averaged about 24.5 mpg during break-in with one tank at 26.

Ambient temp was 70-76 and the altitude was 6600-9000 feet, with most hard driving below 7500ft. After about 30 miles of pretty hard driving with the rev limiter set to 5500 rpm, I did some standing starts up through 4th. (even with short-shifting---Wow)

On the trip back up the "valley" (constantly up hill) I put the windows up and did 7 runs basically back-to-back from 2500-3000 rpm up to 5500 rpm in 4th at WOT. I never heard anything abnormal, just a lot of nice induction sounds. No use of the intercooler spray during the test runs. I haven't used the intercooler spray much at all seeing as I still haven't had to fill it up since I got the car.

I also did some 5th gear pulls and some from 6th going about 60. I never heard any pinging at any point in the day. The coolant temp stayed in the lower portion of the normal range the entire time.

My car was built in March 03 but I haven't pulled the carpet up to see what ECU version I have.

TRS

Punk - Yep, I use FarmCrest up here in Woodland Park. It is 10% ethanol and I used it exclusively in my wagon until I took the unichip out, but I had over 53K miles with it and no problems. I did get a misfire cel once (~20K miles), but SOA had the ECU reflashed and it never happened again.

By the way, your car looked great the other day, too bad I wasn't in the STi at the time.

TRS

- Just a word -
I'm pretty sure I heard pinging in my STi today.
I just filled up with Sunoco 93 last night. This morning on the way to work I was driving in 4th gear, at around 3K rpm up a hill. The turbo sounded like it was spooling quite nicely. So I hit the gas, and at around 3.5K to 4K, I heard what sounded like popcorn poping. I've driven an old Honda, that pinged all the time, and It didn't sound like that, but didn't sound "right" either.
I am at 750 miles on the car, and for the most part keep it below 4K rpm, (every once in a while to 4.5K accidently). I have had the car WOT, but not for long, as I only would do that between 3K and 4K. The outside tempurature was a muggy 72 degrees.
I'm not sure yet if I'll tell my dealer, but I will test it again, and see if it does it again, if so I'll take it to the dealer. BTW: it has never pinged before this, so it could be the Sunoco 93 fuel I just put in it. (although I usually regard Sunoco as being very good fuel) (previously I voted as "running smooth as glass" but now I would change my vote to pinging on 93 octane)

*UPDATE* -> I tried to reproduce the pinging 2 times now, doing the exact same thing. The First (of the 2 times retrying) I didn't hear any pining at all, very smooth. The next time, down low, at 2K (light throtle) I heard a bit of rubling, but then all the way up to 4.5K (I'm still at 800 Miles) I diden't hear anything to speak of, very clean. So, I don't know. Weird, maybee its learning, maybee not, don't know. Btw: All outside temps were between 65- and 70 degrees.

I went into my delaer today....

Nah, that was just to make sure you didn't skip me. :lol:

My car (1600 miles now) generally runs ping-free on 93 here in MD. If I let it get real warm (sitting in traffic, for example) and then while pulling uphil or on level ground with 2 passengers, at around 3-4K I can sometimes hear one (or maybe 2) pings. They don't sound like the life-threatening variety.

I am not concerned about this behavior. I think the ECU is reacting appropriately.

If it should become worse as the outside temps increase (hottest day so far during this "testing" was around 86F) then I will see if adding Toluene makes it go away.

If it gets any worse, I will report it to the dealer so as to "make a mark" in the SOA log on this issue.

I have to say that if I had a stereo in the car I would *never* have heard this. It's even hard to hear if the windows are open. I almost *never* use the water spray, so I can't say if it would have helped. I have not yet installed my intelligent spray controller, and I think the average driver (me) has no hope of deciding when it is *actually* appropriate to spray.

I did not vote in the poll because all of the selections sound much more serious than what I am experiencing. There wasn't a selection for "an occasional, almost inaudible and seemingly non-impactive ping occurs at 3-4K under load when heat soaked but otherwise no issue on 93 octane".

Mine pings slightly on Sunoco Ultra 94.
Temps: 76 degrees
Humidity: 50%


The ping is easily reproducible and happens around 3K-4K. The IC spray don’t seem to help much and it seems to power right through. The ping goes away after 4K and the car will pull to redline. So the ECU seems to power right through. I will try a different brand of gas on the next fill-up to see if anything changes. If not, I will contact my dealer.


Since the car powers through the ping at 3-4K and goes away till redline, maybe the ECU is changing the timing? I cannot reproduce the ping after 4K.

Well, it's 80 degrees in Michigan today, and my STi, properly broken in, currently at 1300 miles, running 93 octane had problems with detonation today. full throttle in 2nd gear, between 3-4k rpms..... big time bummer... calling the dealer right now

orthojoe

OK folks, I went through and cleaned the crap out of this thread also. There are a few of you that I noticed had about 20 or so replies and not one usable piece of info at all, just flames, name calling, and general "bad-form."

I don't want to have to spend another 3 hours "cleaning" here, post unecessary flames or BS with caution. ;)

Emailed Subaru and got this reply from them:

Thank you for your recent message to Subaru of America, Inc. We appreciate
your comments and feedback. We would not know why you may be encountering
knock or ping noise concerns with your 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX Sti. We rely
on the expertise of the factory trained technicians at authorized Subaru
dealerships to inspect, diagnose, and repair our vehicles. Therefore we
would have to refer you to a dealer for your concern. If you do go to an
authorized Subaru dealer and would like us to follow up while your vehicle
is there, please let us know the name of servicing Subaru dealership and
date of the appointment.

Please also refer to page 7-14 of your Owner's Manual: "The engine may, on
rare ocasions, knock when the vehicle rapidly accelerates or rapidly pulls
away from a standstill. This phenomenon is not an indication of a problem in
your vehicle."

We have documented your concern in our customer service system. We use such
data from customers to log and track dealer and product performance. Please
contact our Customer/Dealer Services Center either by email or telephone
(1-800-SUBARU3) and refer to case number 508581, if you have further
questions. Thank you again for allowing us the opportunity to address this
matter.

Sincerely,

Petra Douglas
Subaru of America, Inc.


You know, I did take the car to the dealer, but they couldnt do anything... they don't know anything about the car. Just have to sit back and pray they do something I guess

orthojoe

Hmm... they document it...
For those that still hasn't visit the dealer just yet.. maybe just
shoot SOA an email first?
:)


Originally posted by orthojoe
Emailed Subaru and got this reply from them:

Thank you for your recent message to Subaru of America, Inc. We appreciate
your comments and feedback. We would not know why you may be encountering
knock or ping noise concerns with your 2004 Subaru Impreza WRX Sti. We rely
on the expertise of the factory trained technicians at authorized Subaru
dealerships to inspect, diagnose, and repair our vehicles. Therefore we
would have to refer you to a dealer for your concern. If you do go to an
authorized Subaru dealer and would like us to follow up while your vehicle
is there, please let us know the name of servicing Subaru dealership and
date of the appointment.

Please also refer to page 7-14 of your Owner's Manual: "The engine may, on
rare ocasions, knock when the vehicle rapidly accelerates or rapidly pulls
away from a standstill. This phenomenon is not an indication of a problem in
your vehicle."

We have documented your concern in our customer service system. We use such
data from customers to log and track dealer and product performance. Please
contact our Customer/Dealer Services Center either by email or telephone
(1-800-SUBARU3) and refer to case number 508581, if you have further
questions. Thank you again for allowing us the opportunity to address this
matter.

Sincerely,

Petra Douglas
Subaru of America, Inc.


You know, I did take the car to the dealer, but they couldnt do anything... they don't know anything about the car. Just have to sit back and pray they do something I guess

orthojoe

Yeah, everybody that has heard knock, goto Subaru's website and send them an email so they can document the issue... the more documentation they have, the more likely they'll do something about this issue

http://www.subaru.com/contact/contact/middle.jsp

Let's do it!

orthojoe

Originally posted by orthojoe
If you do go to an
authorized Subaru dealer and would like us to follow up while your vehicle
is there, please let us know the name of servicing Subaru dealership and
date of the appointment.


You know, I did take the car to the dealer, but they couldnt do anything... they don't know anything about the car. Just have to sit back and pray they do something I guess

orthojoe

Can i suggest you take them up on their offer, in other words arange another apointment at the dealer and ask for a SOA rep to attend. That way SOA will see first hand the dealer staff cant diagnose this/deal with it and you will get a more likely response from SOA.

leaving it as you just have achieves nothing.

yep, I concurr. Email SOA and take you car to the dealer. DO NOT FORGET to email back SOA with the details of your Dealer and Incident report number (or case number) to SOA so they will exactly know which dealers have proof of pinging!

quote from SOA's reply:
"...If you do go to an
authorized Subaru dealer and would like us to follow up while your vehicle
is there, please let us know the name of servicing Subaru dealership and
date of the appointment."

If SOA has given us hints of things to do as a starting point lets not waste it. Lets do something about it NOW.

also, a bit of info for you. there seems to be some confusion over your octane numbers. In the USA you dont use RON to measure your fuel at the pumps, you use PON (Pump Octane Number), the table bellow explains what that means.

RON MON PON
90 83 86.6
92 85 88.5
95 87 91
96 88 92
98 90 94
100 91.5 95.8
105 95 100
110 99 104.5

So the japanese spec fuel of 100RON is actually your 95.8PON
The super unleaded in the UK is 98RON which is your 94PON
the normal unleaded in the UK is 95RON which is your 91PON

My STi5 is mapped for 100RON, i cant get that so use 98RON plus NF octane booster and dont have any det problems. Run this on 95RON and the engine will melt.

The P1 was suposed to be safe on 95RON, the reality is it is very suseptable to det problems with such low octane fuel and is best served with 98RON. (the P1 was an STi5 engine/map with slightly more sensitive knock control than the equivilent Japanese spec ECU, the map is identical to the Japanese spec)

The 22B TypeUK was suposed to be safe on 95RON also, the reality was it dets badly on 97RON and requires an octane booster to be safe.

Subaru has a history of producing STi based cars that det on low octane fuels, it is not surprising at all to find your engines are detting on 91PON.

interesting posting about the Octanage measurements. However I am pretty sure SOA is extremelly well aware of this things and specially fuel differences & requirements. I mean, they even opted for a 2.5L engine specifically because the High Performance 2.0L STi engine would not perform as expected on U.S. 91 octane fuel (PON).

Can we get some hard evidence, like proof that the ECU is aware of this pinging.... or even better, proof that the ECU is pulling timing as a result of this. Must be a TOTALLY stock STi on 91 octane. DeltaDASH users, please?

Here's an interesting EPA "Dear Manufacturer" letter from 1997: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/vpcd9701.pdf. It seem that, nowadays, if the manufacturer clearly states that the vehicle should not be operated with "regular" gasoline, then there is no need to comply with the "91 RON" requirements of the letter.

Yeah, everybody that has heard knock, goto Subaru's website and send them an email so they can document the issue... the more documentation they have, the more likely they'll do something about this issue

NO. Waste of time and energy. All you'll do is get an email saying what I've already said....

MAKE A SERVICE APPOINTMENT, TAKE THE CAR TO YOUR DEALER, TAKE THE TECHNICIAN FOR A TEST DRIVE.

They can't confirm your pinging from an email!

I don't see the reason for this post, Glenn. What do you suggest we do? Sit here and complain? Speculate as to the cause? What if the dealer says "I don't know what to do." as some just noted? Someone else should hear about it.

As the post previously said, if dealer are selling STis and only 1 in 4 is complaining of the problem, how do the dealers know it's a problem? If the dealers don't know it's a problem, they sure aren't going to notify SOA. Maybe....just maybe, they might check up on this as they said they would.

Even if an aftermarket solution pops up, I'm sure as hell going to make sure my dealer/SOA customer relations has a folder an inch thick with complaints or inquiries about this problem. Otherwise, consider yourself SOL. Some dealers (maybe most dealers) don't take people seriously when complaining about this stuff. Should a warranty claim come up, it sure would be nice to have a few complaints in a dealer record and also sitting in an SOA customer database.

Speculate as to the cause? What if the dealer says "I don't know what to do." as some just noted?

Read the earlier threads: make sure the dealer calls the Subaru techline and opens a case on it.

If they wan't call, talk to the service manager.

This is the official way for them to take notice. I guarantee an email to Subaru (someone already sent one) will result in you being guided back to your dealer.

Subaru takes action based on what the dealers report as issues, especially via the techline. If the dealer can't resolve it, but the issue remains, it is in Subaru's court to resolve it.

Look at it from Subaru's point of view. Which are you most likely to take action on?

a) an email from someone saying "my STi is pinging"
b) an STi at a dealer, the technician has heard the pinging and is now on the phone to your tier 2 support team telling them about it?

I'll tell you the answer, b.

Glenn

PS by the way, just having a service invoice for warranty that says "customer states engine pings" and the mileage could be helpful in covering you if sometime later you wind up with a melted piston. (just ask why they call me Mr Lemon at the local Saab dealer)

Yeah, I understand all of that....but I'm saying there may be other sources of documentation available. Read the response received from SOA


Therefore we would have to refer you to a dealer for your concern. If you do go to an authorized Subaru dealer and would like us to follow up while your vehicle is there, please let us know the name of servicing Subaru dealership and date of the appointment.

Sure....why not? Is there a good reason that you shouldn't take the 2 minutes to do this?

And how bout this part?


We have documented your concern in our customer service system. We use such data from customers to log and track dealer and product performance. Please contact our Customer/Dealer Services Center either by email or telephone (1-800-SUBARU3) and refer to case number 508581, if you have further questions. Thank you again for allowing us the opportunity to address this
matter.

Again...how is this bad? From looking at the make up of the VIN numbers for STis, that case number could be the # of the STi being serviced. Maybe it won't amount to much being done BY SOA, but it sure as heck acts as another record of your concern early in the vehicle's life.

Since nothing is being done by SOA yet, I and others will take any avenue possible to get documentation of the problem down, whether it be for "SOA fix this" reasons or "my engine is toast and I told you something was wrong" reasons.

I completely see what you are saying about going to the dealer. I've read every post here. I don't see why you are poo pooing another avenue that appears to be open to us.

Glenn,

This is a good thread, for sure!:disco: At least for me, it provides me with what issues are being seen out there, under what variables, what is being done to address it, and, hopefully, soon, how SOA/FHI is going to address it. Thanks.

Saw the service guy at the dealer I bought the car from yesterday. They know I have pinging and he assured me that he would talk to one of subaru's engineers and get back to me, and that he would bring up the issue at the 'ride and drive' or whatever it's called.

Glenn, have you talked to your service guy? what did he say?

orthojoe

(we gotta do anything and everything to bring up this issue... attack from multiple sides/angles, right?)

I visited my dealer today and had a service technician ride with me. This tech was sent to school to work specifically on the STi. My ping is very slight and intermittent and had him listen to it. He can actually her it, but don't think its much of a problem and sounds normal. I asked if its a possible fuel det issue and said he doesn't think so. They have the problem logged and he will run this issue by the regional rep to see if he knows anything about this.

Now we're talking!

Let's get techs like this all over the company calling "up the ladder" about this problem.....

I don't see why you are poo pooing another avenue that appears to be open to us.

The person who suggested it said we all should do it. They didn't mention dealer visits. If you want to do it AS WELL AS or AFTER a dealer visit, then fine.

My point is : let's not rely on it. As much as I like the kind folk that work in the cust service dept at SOA the path that gets most directly back to the engineering staff and is most valued is the dealer escalation process.

Glenn

PS talk about the pot calling the kettle black, I have yet to get my car to the dealer (busy work week) to show them. Perhaps tomorrow.

They have the problem logged and he will run this issue by the regional rep to see if he knows anything about this.

Having the DTM (district tech mgr) involved is a good step but also get them to call the techline. They actually write this stuff down.

Glenn

Hey guys, check out this email I got from Subaru. I'm actually fairly impressed with how prompt they are in getting back to you and with the steps they've taken so far.

Thank you for your recent message to Subaru of America, Inc. We
appreciate
your comments and feedback. Please understand that we cannot provide
any
technical diagnosis via e-mail. We contacted Dwyer & Sons on your
behalf and
spoke with Service Manager XXXXX XXXXX. The Service Manager advised
that
he would contact the Subaru dealer technical line for assistance.

So there you go... I agree with Glenn that going to the dealer is the most effective... but not everybody has loads of time to go to the dealer right away. If you're short on time and have detonation... get the first ball rolling with an email. Push from all sides!

orthojoe

I have an appointment with a SOA rep this monday @ 11AM to go over det issues.

Have any of you guys isolated the dets to a specific cylinder?
Just curious.


BTW, the ecu is not aware of the knock. I would get a flag once in a great while using the Subaru service monitor. Knock correction was never retarded.

Originally posted by sube151
Knock correction was never retarded.

hmm...i would have to disagree and say that the knock correction IS retarded. lol.

LOL

So there is no indication that the ECU knows there is a 'knock' problem? Obviously it senses something is wrong if it does turn back the timining for 4-5 runs.

Is there something else other than the knock itself that the ECU is sensing, causing the timing retard? Maybe something wasn't programmed right and there is no knock control.

Hmmm....again....all wild speculation....this bites...

Some more speculation for you guys.

Since this is painfully obvious that there is a det. problem with the car i would always try to isolate the root of the causes. I don't think (guess) that the sensors has anything to do with the pinging... I would guess that the only thing absolutely new is the ECU in this subaru. Since the ECU is a brand new and first time design (i beleive it is made from a different mfg from older ECUs) it may be that is the root of the problem. Just trying to throw ideas around. Good luck guys... and BTW trust me LISTEN to Glenn, if you have pinging GOTO .dealer /now
fill out a formal report and whole nine yards... spend the whole day if you have to... :(

After voting “smooth as glass” in the poll, I have noticed that my STi is also pinging at about 3-4k under load and in the heat. Sometimes it is quite loud. It does not happen all the time. I brought the car to the shop and told the service manager and the service rep (who has also been trained specifically to work on the STi). They called the Tech Line and logged the problem.

The Teach Line folks referred me to page 7-14 and they assured the service manager that this was quite normal and would not be a problem. I told him that I always let off when I noticed it and he told me it was OK to accelerate right through it! I (semi) jokingly told the service manager that I would like to make an appointment right now to rebuild my bottom end when I hole a piston ;)

I think that part of the reason that the poll is heavily weighed towards the “smooth as glass” category is that people (like me) voted before their rings had a chance to seat much at all. With the additional blow by lowering the cylinder pressures combined with the quite natural tendency for owners to take it easy on their cars when new, the det was probably not present, or perhaps not noticeable. Also, people naturally become more “attuned” to their vehicles after a couple weeks and they are much more likely to recognize subtle cues that may go unnoticed before. But in my case, the pinging was quite loud and most easily recognized.

BTW, 93 octane, ambient air temp in the high 80's.

Did the tech hear the pinging too, or did they just dial the phone for you? Since this is logged, and told you basically ignore it, if your motor blows up, you are basically covered.

Originally posted by bcblues
After voting “smooth as glass” in the poll, I have noticed that my STi is also pinging at about 3-4k under load and in the heat. Sometimes it is quite loud. It does not happen all the time. I brought the car to the shop and told the service manager and the service rep (who has also been trained specifically to work on the STi). They called the Tech Line and logged the problem.

The Teach Line folks referred me to page 7-14 and they assured the service manager that this was quite normal and would not be a problem. I told him that I always let off when I noticed it and he told me it was OK to accelerate right through it! I (semi) jokingly told the service manager that I would like to make an appointment right now to rebuild my bottom end when I hole a piston ;)

I think that part of the reason that the poll is heavily weighed towards the “smooth as glass” category is that people (like me) voted before their rings had a chance to seat much at all. With the additional blow by lowering the cylinder pressures combined with the quite natural tendency for owners to take it easy on their cars when new, the det was probably not present, or perhaps not noticeable. Also, people naturally become more “attuned” to their vehicles after a couple weeks and they are much more likely to recognize subtle cues that may go unnoticed before. But in my case, the pinging was quite loud and most easily recognized.

BTW, 93 octane, ambient air temp in the high 80's.

While I agree that pinging isn't a good thing, but it feels like everyone just panics when they hear an isolated ping or maybe a couple of pings. I have heard my car ping, but it pinged twice and then stopped. This is not an unusual occurance on any engine I have owned (none of them have needed rebuiling either). I remember back about 10-12 years ago when my parents old Oldsmobile used to ping going up 6%+ grades. My dad brought it into the dealer and they said don't worry, it will knock under heavy load. I have heard that same statement over and over again since then (including the statement in the STi Owners Manual) and I am convinced that occasional knock will not blow an engine. Why are people so paranoid about knock at this level? I understand that there may be some that have more severe knock, but for those hearing a couple of pings, relax a little, document it by bringing it to the dealer, and then move on with life. When Subaru has a fix, it will become public knowledge real quick.

Just my $0.02 because I can't believe the panic mode people are in.

Christian

Originally posted by Chin
While I agree that pinging isn't a good thing, but it feels like everyone just panics when they hear an isolated ping or maybe a couple of pings. I have heard my car ping, but it pinged twice and then stopped. This is not an unusual occurance on any engine I have owned (none of them have needed rebuiling either). I remember back about 10-12 years ago when my parents old Oldsmobile used to ping going up 6%+ grades. My dad brought it into the dealer and they said don't worry, it will knock under heavy load. I have heard that same statement over and over again since then (including the statement in the STi Owners Manual) and I am convinced that occasional knock will not blow an engine. Why are people so paranoid about knock at this level? I understand that there may be some that have more severe knock, but for those hearing a couple of pings, relax a little, document it by bringing it to the dealer, and then move on with life. When Subaru has a fix, it will become public knowledge real quick.

Just my $0.02 because I can't believe the panic mode people are in.

Christian

Besides, a Cobb Tuning short block is ONLY 6 grand! ;-)
Due to the slight perfomance disparity between your daddy's Oldsmobils and the Sti, I'd say that a high strung 4 cyl is more prone to throw a rod than a misfiring lazy 8 cylinder.
Needless to say, once the car is picked up and broken in, I'm seeking alternative engine management.

Due to the slight perfomance disparity between your daddy's Oldsmobils and the Sti, I'd say that a high strung 4 cyl is more prone to throw a rod than a misfiring lazy 8 cylinder.

Disregarding the enormous amount of technology difference between the two (does the Olds have the same quality pistons and rods?) your point is valid. However, there was more to the statement. I have driven various cars that have pinged on occasion and never had a problem with the resultant effects. When just about every manufacturer (can't speak to all of them as I haven't researched it) states that some pinging under certain conditions is normal, how can one of us say that it is so destructive? Are we designing the engine? Do we know how resistant it is to the damage incurred by knock? Again, I am not saying that everyones car falls into the category of "light knock", but from many of the responses it would appear to me that most are.

Christian

I have knock link install on my STI. I use toluene to change my octane levels just like I used to in my old Stage 4 WRX.

Between 3700rpm and 4200rpm

91oct lights up all the orange with 1 hit at the big light:eek:

92oct lights up the both oranges and nothing else

93oct still lights up the both oranges

94oct lights up the first orange now and then

95oct lights up the second green now and then

96oct first green changes to bright green

FWIW
I used to have UTEC and knock Link hooked up to my old car. When UTEC pulled timing at just one knock the knock link used to light up the second green for just an instant and the UTEC would pull timing. What I'm saying is if the Knock link goes passed the first green the UTEC was pulling timing. I now run toluene mixed to 96oct and hopeing the STI UTEC isn't going to take long to come out. I'm the 1st on the list :D

I'm in Canada BTW.
Subaru made a mistake plain and simple.

FWIW
On 96oct the cars pretty fast but only in 5th and 6th the turbo at 5500rpm falls flat on its face here at 3600ft in the first 4 gears.

Good info, thanks. Does the knock link use the stock knock sensor? What gear are you in? Are you just going WOT at 3K? Does this also happen during "normal" driving?

I have a SCES installed on my STI, and I've never seen it pull timing, and I am on 91 octane. This is REALLY weird. When was your car made? Mine was made in march.


Originally posted by Wombat North
I have knock link install on my STI. I use toluene to change my octane levels just like I used to in my old Stage 4 WRX.

Between 3700rpm and 4200rpm

91oct lights up all the orange with 1 hit at the big light:eek:

92oct lights up the both oranges and nothing else

93oct still lights up the both oranges

94oct lights up the first orange now and then

95oct lights up the second green now and then

96oct first green changes to bright green

FWIW
I used to have UTEC and knock Link hooked up to my old car. When UTEC pulled timing at just one knock the knock link used to light up the second green for just an instant and the UTEC would pull timing. What I'm saying is if the Knock link goes passed the first green the UTEC was pulling timing. I now run toluene mixed to 96oct and hopeing the STI UTEC isn't going to take long to come out. I'm the 1st on the list :D

I'm in Canada BTW.
Subaru made a mistake plain and simple.

FWIW
On 96oct the cars pretty fast but only in 5th and 6th the turbo at 5500rpm falls flat on its face here at 3600ft in the first 4 gears.

Hi..can you explain a little on what the green/yellow/red lights
mean? (or point me to a link)

Thanks,

Originally posted by Wombat North
I have knock link install on my STI. I use toluene to change my octane levels just like I used to in my old Stage 4 WRX.

Between 3700rpm and 4200rpm

91oct lights up all the orange with 1 hit at the big light:eek:

92oct lights up the both oranges and nothing else

93oct still lights up the both oranges

94oct lights up the first orange now and then

95oct lights up the second green now and then

96oct first green changes to bright green

Originally posted by Wombat North
I use toluene to change my octane levels just like I used to in my old Stage 4 WRX.

Do you have a link to a site or an instruction that describes how to mix to a certain octane level? Is there a certain purity grade of Toluene that's necessary, or is it normally sold at 99.9% pure?

****

Sorry, just found these two informative links in another thread that has the answers. I thought this sounded familiar!

Toluene LINKS:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/mis...eexplained.html
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/sho...=Octane+Booster

Today in Chicago was a hot and not humid day. I had to get through traffic ASAP to be on time. I am sure I heard pinging a couple of times when running WOT around 4K. :) My temperature sensor was showing 73 for most of the time. It's on 93 octane fuel.

i've never owned a 0 mile brand new car, so call me crazy but i am following the suggested break in. i've been working on turbos in japan for the last 4 years, and i know what detonation is :) so far, I have not heard a peep out of her, never went wot yet, runnin 92 octane. hopefully i'll have an answer in the next few days, wife is keeping me from driving as much as i'd like. i am gonna keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best on this one, but i suspect it will sound like metal rain the first time i romp on it

A couple of things

The tests I did were under WOT in any gear with different loads(hills)from 2500rpm through to redline. I'm using a bosch sensor which is placed on the intake manifold on the drivers side ontop of the ground using a longer bolt. This was suggested to me by Nathan and works well IMHO.

Knock link has 2 green that go to 2 orange(caution) to one big bright led(OH S***)

The SECS is great but if the stock sensor/ecu is not up to record knock accurately its no good.

My car was made march 3rd

I used to have UTEC and knock link on my old stage 4 WRX and when the UTEC pulled timing the knock link would only light up the second green for a fraction of a second. By then the UTEC had pulled timing.:eek:

This is interesting. The tuners are saying that the ECU does see the knocks and *does* pull timing (see the "good" vs "bad" timing that someone posted). This isn't what I am seeing--I am not seeing it pull timing at all, and I don't hear it knock at all.
Granted, I am nearly at sea level but I am on 91 octane. From what you have described, the ECU does see the knock, and pulls timing (pls confirm).

Do you actually hear it knock--would you know your car was knocking if you didn't have your knock link?

Thanks... keep the info coming!


Originally posted by Wombat North

Knock link has 2 green that go to 2 orange(caution) to one big bright led(OH S***)

The SECS is great but if the stock sensor/ecu is not up to record knock accurately its no good.

Originally posted by hatchy
This is interesting. The tuners are saying that the ECU does see the knocks and *does* pull timing (see the "good" vs "bad" timing that someone posted). This isn't what I am seeing--I am not seeing it pull timing at all, and I don't hear it knock at all.
Granted, I am nearly at sea level but I am on 91 octane. From what you have described, the ECU does see the knock, and pulls timing (pls confirm).

Do you actually hear it knock--would you know your car was knocking if you didn't have your knock link?

Thanks... keep the info coming!




A couple of things
If I didn't have the Knock Link I would not know my car was knocking.

I have no way of knowing if ecu pulled timing. My butts not that accurate anymore. It did however feel flat for awhile when on 91oct and I had the knock link light up all the lights. I had my son drive the car while I watched the rpm's and knock link.

During my test I drove over 200 miles in the country trying different levels of octane. The toluene I mixed into the fuel was a best guess. Remember you do a few runs then have to guess how much fuel you have left in the tank and mix from that. Scientific no.

I have since filled my tank from almost empty twice and mixed 91 octane with toluene to get 94 octane. I still get the same results with the knock link as I did on my test day. I still had to mix more toluene to remove knock. BTW I used two different companies of 91 0ct.

I make no claims on the accuracy of my tests, just what I have observed. I hope some others will get a chance to do the same tests to get a better average of what's happening to these cars.

FWIW
The only thing I can say which I feel is accurate is the UTEC has way better detection and control over knock than stock. As always others will argue but I know what I'm waiting for to be released.

I had an appointment this morning to have my car checked out for my pinging/det problem. Well the service rep told me that during their Sti training last week, it was said the car was designed to run on 93 octane gas and with lower octane that some 'pinging and detonation would not be detrimental to the engine'. Basically they said there was nothing they can do, since that's what Subaru told them. He said I can leave the car if I still wanted to, so that the tech can listen to it, but they won't be able to do anything about it. Not exactly the response I wanted to hear.. :(

That's BS...considering people running 94 octane are also getting det.

Point them in the right direction....the ECU isn't doing what it's supposed to!

it was said the car was designed to run on 93 octane gas and with lower octane that some 'pinging and detonation would not be detrimental to the engine'.

And I pretty much expected the engine would learn what octane you were using over a tank or two and be less aggressive (with resulting drop in HP, which is fine by me).

Glenn

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


And I pretty much expected the engine would learn what octane you were using over a tank or two and be less aggressive (with resulting drop in HP, which is fine by me).

Glenn

I'm really curious how much less hp STi will be running on 91s...
once SOA fixed the ping/det problems...

Well, the Subaru guy that emailed me back the other day called my dealer and asked them to take a look at my car. So I took it in today. 90 degree weather, so it was perfect knock demonstration weather. The tech took a drive with me, and sure enough you could hear pinging at 4k. He took note of it and is going to call the subaru tech line and get back to me about what they say. Why do I get the feeling they're gonna refer the tech to page 7-14? Man, I hope Subaru fixes this issue SOON

orthojoe

ok, i replied in the other det sticky thread about the possibility of my car pinging on 94 octane. I was unsure if it was or not because i'm not experienced with detting or turbocharged cars. Well, to make a long story short, i went down to Adam(Z1 performance) to take him for a ride in my car last week. It was raining and about 65 degrees. He didn't hear anything. Told him i would be back on a hot sunny day which was today so i stopped by to take him for another spin. 86 degrees, A/C on full boil and WOT and adam didn't hear a peep. I'm running on 94 octane sunoco ultra. I'm going to vote smooth as glass on the thread since i had a someone with plenty of experience listen for it. I feel relieved to say the least. I hope everything works out for the rest of you guys.

Tom

I'm really curious how much less hp STi will be running on 91s... once SOA fixed the ping/det problems...

Shiv -- if you're reading care to guess? 285BHP?

Ok, for those of us not familiar with detonation in turbo'd cars, how BIG of a real-world (daily driver + some limited track time & AutoX) deal is this?

In my area only 91 octane is common as "premium", 93 octane is rare, and 94 is unheard of.

My STi should be in *this week*, is the detonation problem something serious enough to put off getting it and waiting either a few months or next year?

Thanks.

Well, I took my STi to the dealer, the tech took a ride with me. I easily reproduced detonation for him, he called the tech line, and they fed him the same BS that they've been feeding everybody else. Use 93 octane and refer to page 7-14 of your manual. The manual states that knock will occur RARELY... I donk think that getting knock whenever you drive aggressively in >80 degree weather RARE.... this is REALLY disappointing. If they're not going to do anything about this, I think that's complete garbage. I'm regretting my decision to choose an STi over an EVO these days.

orthojoe

For those of you that already own the STi, would you have bought the car if you heard detonation during the test drive?

Wombat North- what indication level on the knock link do you actually hear the detonation?

J

Well, I took my STi to the dealer, the tech took a ride with me. I easily reproduced detonation for him, he called the tech line, and they fed him the same BS that they've been feeding everybody else. Use 93 octane and refer to page 7-14 of your manual. The manual states that knock will occur RARELY... I donk think that getting knock whenever you drive aggressively in >80 degree weather RARE.... this is REALLY disappointing. If they're not going to do anything about this, I think that's complete garbage. I'm regretting my decision to choose an STi over an EVO these days.

Now that you've done step 1 and have had it reproduced by your dealer and reported to the tech line, you should call 1800SUBARU3 and tell them how disappointed you are and how concerned you are about the issue. Being told that it will occur rarely and having it happen frequently is some cause for concern.

Ask them to open a case on it.

Glenn

yup I agree, but it will take more persistance to make SOA do something about it. We need more people to take their STi's into the dealer to erport the problem. And then always follow up with SOA with your case.

Originally posted by J-rod
For those of you that already own the STi, would you have bought the car if you heard detonation during the test drive?
J

No.

For what it's worth I had my car out yesterday in what the factory temp gauge said was 92 degrees. Normal driving (Intercooler not heat soaked) there was NO Pinging. This is running 93 octance from the same mobil with 2600 miles on the car. Never had a chance to sit and let the IC heat soak, but never the less I tried and listen about 24 times and I never once heard it.

For those that don't remember I reported that in 83 degree weather with a hat soaked IC I was able to reproduce it, but once I hit the IC spray it immediately stopped.

Conclusion: The IC spray is there for a reason, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with the car for my climate (Which should be abour 96 degrees if I go out over lunch today)

Keith

I previously reported only getting one or two pings when running WOT uphill. Now that the sun has come out here in MD (it's been raining for weeks) and the temp is up things have changed.

Now I get a string (4, maybe 5) of mild sounding dets, and it seems to be happening not only at WOT, but at partial opening as well (near WOT). The temp was 96 yesterday (per the dash gauge) and it was relatively easy to reproduce pining while driving through the hilly New Market terrain.

So, I finally voted "pinging on 93".

It still does not sound like anything that would be destructive, and I don't notice any power decrease when it occurs, the car still runs like a scalded dog.

Well I wasn't pinging before , but now since the temperatures are climbing I am now pinging intermidiantly on 93 octane. Sucks. I hope there is an easy fix for this. Love my car but I would be a lot more at peace if they resolved this issue.

Originally posted by rallykeith


For those that don't remember I reported that in 83 degree weather with a hat soaked IC I was able to reproduce it, but once I hit the IC spray it immediately stopped.

Conclusion: The IC spray is there for a reason, and I don't feel there is anything wrong with the car for my climate (Which should be abour 96 degrees if I go out over lunch today)

Keith

Exactly. I still have not had the first ping from mine yet, but I make sure to hit the spray once or twice if I think the IC could be a little too hot. It has been in the upper 80's here this week, should be 91 as a high today.

This is a modification of a question asked earlier.

For those who have pinging now, after seeing initially what Subaru has done (refer to the manual), would you still buy your car if it was sitting at the dealer's lot awaiting the paperwork to be completed. I guess what i'm asking is is this issue serious enough to change your mind on buying the car. I realize what pinging is and the potential dangers of it, but do you people have enough faith in Subaru to take care of it.

I personally feel this issue will be resolved by Subaru but it will take some time and a lot of complaining. On the other hand I have no experience with Subaru so I'm just speculating.

Well if past experience is indicative of future performance, Subaru of America will blame the user for a few more months, quiety issue a TSB to its' main dealers and not tell the little guys, and instruct them on how to blame it on abuse and scare away the meeker customers, and only apply the fix to the tenacious ones. :rolleyes:

If I were waiting on a line for a 32k sports cars and knew of this problem, I would wait or look elsewhere.

Here's an update on my ongoing ping saga:

I got my car on June 7, and after about a week and >500 miles I began to notice on >mid throttle a rapid pinging or tapping sound from the engine between 2.5-4k RPM (wasn't going above that back then). Was this knock? It happened alot and it didn't take much to set it off, so I was sure hoping it was something else. I have never owned a turbo car before so it was hard to know. I have been running on 93 gas.

On the 16th I stopped by the dealer to get my plate and a mechanic and I went for a drive. With 900 miles on the car I pushed it a little more, but the response from the mechanic was not helpful : "I don't know what that sound is, but I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think it is knock. I haven't been trained on the car yet."

A friend who is also a car nut (although w/o turbo experience) took a ride and had the same answer: "Don't know what it is; doesn't sound like knock"

Took it too Chicago and took fellow nasioc member kyledooley for a ride, but it was raining pretty hard and the sound was washed out. Kyle thought from my description it sounded like the operation of the boost controller, where a solenoid rapidly cycles on and off to enable the boost pressure to operate the waste gate. I agreed that that could be it, which was great, but as I continue to listen to the car I may be getting other sounds too. So I decided that I'm going to have to get some toluene and mix up some 96-97 octane and see what that does. Any sounds that remain MUST be normal! I then will be able to vote in the poll, cause I am going to vote either "pinging on 93 :mad:" or "smooth as glass :)"

One other thought for those who have not got your car, or are still on the fence, or have decided to get a different car instead: Do us owners a favor and let the subaru salesperson know that this is an important issue to you and you are monitoring the situation. If you are going to get a different car let subaru know that the knock issue was a concern. Many times salespeople care more about the next customer than the last; I would think a few lost sales would get the salesmanager's attention.

SDC

Maybe someone people are confusing the valvetrain noise with knocking? If I drive next to a sound wall with the window down, I do hear "ticking" and I know my car isnt knocking.

FYI.. the intercooler sprayer controller in the SECS works great! I have it kick on at 2.9psi of boost and it basically starts spraying as soon as I start driving a little more aggressively. Refill the tank about 1-2 times a week.

I got it from Mark at Quantum-Racing. Excellent service!

Originally posted by mtb_dude

If I were waiting on a line for a 32k sports cars and knew of this problem, I would wait or look elsewhere.

That's exactly what I've done. I got a call from the dealer yesterday stating that my car would be in stock in July, a couple months earlier than his previous estimate. It sounds like a lot of people have dropped of the list. And I had to do the same, I was dissapointed to do so, but as soon as all these detonation concerns get resolved, I'll likely jump right back onboard.

I had a VW Gulf that had a ping problem but it did not start until I had 40k miles on it. I was told that pinging gets worse because carbon deposits start to build up on the valves and cylinder walls. I would be concerned if I was experiencing pinging in a new engine. I hope Subaru is looking in to this and comes up with a satisfactory solution.

Originally posted by hatchy
Maybe someone people are confusing the valvetrain noise with knocking? If I drive next to a sound wall with the window down, I do hear "ticking" and I know my car isnt knocking.

FYI.. the intercooler sprayer controller in the SECS works great! I have it kick on at 2.9psi of boost and it basically starts spraying as soon as I start driving a little more aggressively. Refill the tank about 1-2 times a week.

I got it from Mark at Quantum-Racing. Excellent service!

Any install pics? How does it hook up?

Thanks.

Sorry, no pics, but it was very easy. Just two wires off the back of the SECS unit to a $4 relay. Wire the relay to 2 wires off the intercooler sprayer switch and you are done! Takes about 30 mins.

Originally posted by Hummer


Any install pics? How does it hook up?

Thanks.

Mark @ Quantum shoud have some literature on how to do this, they should actually make a kit for the STi that taps into the manual switch to make it a breazee. I'll bring it up into the SECS tread.

Originally posted by sethtasy

One other thought for those who have not got your car, or are still on the fence, or have decided to get a different car instead: Do us owners a favor and let the subaru salesperson know that this is an important issue to you and you are monitoring the situation. If you are going to get a different car let subaru know that the knock issue was a concern. Many times salespeople care more about the next customer than the last; I would think a few lost sales would get the salesmanager's attention.

SDC [/B]

My car was scheduled to come in June 24th.
I got the call around mid afternoon.

When I told the salsewoman I was concerned about the possible knock/detonation issue and asked if I could speak to their Service manager. A few minutes later and he calls me to say that he's never heard of such a thing and that as far as he knows, there *is* no such problem.

Either he was simply trying to push the sale, or no one at that dealership who had a STi had problems, or no one reported the problems they had with their STi...

Regardless, I thanked him and my sales rep, and declined the STi.

I don't think the IC sprayer should have to be *the* solution,
it should be necessary only under high-demand low-speed operations (AutoX) not mere daily driving--that's the job of the IC itself.

My friend has an S4, and it never had a problem on 91 octane, when it was brand new, in the heat, and even on the track.

For $32k I expect Subaru to have done it's homework enough for this to have NOT been a problem--it gets HOT in Japan (go to Kyoto in the summer and you'll see real heat) and they don't all run 94+ Octane, so the excuse that Subaru didn't count on those factors (heat and 91 octane) is simply unacceptable.



I'm still interested, but I will wait and see what happens with this problem.

I will do likewise when my car comes in next month, if Subaru does not even acknowledge this issue.

You "cancelling" guys will be missing out on a nice car.

I tried everything possible to try an get mine to ping and it never did. The weather has been in the 90s for the last week here (Montreal). I was in NY state during the last weekend and even filled up with Sunoco 91 (to try and see if US gas would make a diference) ... not a peep... I otherwise use 94.

What will you guys do ? Buy your "second choice" car ?.:confused:

I'm pretty sure if we put that much energy trying to get any other car to ping we'd probably get as many pinging cars. I guess drivers of other brands are just driving and not spending all their free time trying to get the car to ping !!:lol:

Darthdiggler. I think it's a matter of some folks not willing to risk parting with 32 big ones on a car that may have a significant motor longivity issue, especially with Subaru's track record on warranty issues. Others will assume the risk to be among the first to have the current latest and greatest car. I predict this won't be fixed until next year's model. I think a lot of people that buy this car will plan on keeping it a long time and just want to be sure the major components are solid. I think if a lot of WRX owners really knew about the weak tranny in the WRX and Subaru's response to complaints, they might not have bought one. Just my thoughts.

Originally posted by Oldnslow
Darthdiggler. I think it's a matter of some folks not willing to risk parting with 32 big ones on a car that may have a significant motor longivity issue, especially with Subaru's track record on warranty issues. Others will assume the risk to be among the first to have the current latest and greatest car. I predict this won't be fixed until next year's model. I think a lot of people that buy this car will plan on keeping it a long time and just want to be sure the major components are solid. I think if a lot of WRX owners really knew about the weak tranny in the WRX and Subaru's response to complaints, they might not have bought one. Just my thoughts.

My feelings exactly,,,,,,,,,Im very close with my dealership and have had 1st crack on the 3 different STi's that they have recieved so far.(at MSRP,black,silver,white).
My 1st consideration was that i have NEVER paid MSRP for any of my previous Subarus(5) and wasnt about to begin now.I told them I was gonna wait till the hype wore off and then we would talk.They and I know, I will buy one eventually.
Now this situation(detonation) comes along and im more convinced the ever not to buy at the present time.My dealer is mod friendly and has never hassled me about my heavily modified WRX whatsoever.But this is an SOA problem not a dealer problem and given Subarus track record fr factorys fixes im rather reluctant to buy the STi and then wait however long it takes for SOA to come up with a solution or even admit there is a problem.
So for now im in a holding pattern,and i'll be checking this thread regularly to check for updates.

Rudy:D

Originally posted by darthdiggler

What will you guys do ? Buy your "second choice" car ?.:confused:




So for now im in a holding pattern,and i'll be checking this thread regularly to check for updates.

Rudy


I don't really have a second choice car, but I'm also not in a *rush* to get an STi.

I've already owned a car that was SUCH a lemon that I eventually had to get it lemon-lawed and get the dealership to take it back.

I can and will wait until this problem is taken care of by SoA, mainly because I *have* read the warranty problems forum, and I have no desire to rush into buying a car to put up with headaches that my current (if old) vehicle doesn't have.

There will be STis next year, it's not like they'll just make them this one time, so hopefully the next batch will be better.

Just a quick summary of the poll results. Because of the extra options, it has diluted the %s. Like most things, you can make the numbers prove any point you want to make. :)

145 people voted through the first set of choices (smooth, not sure, dets on xx AKI).

Definitely not, smooth as glass 55 37.93%
Not sure 38 26.21%
Pinging 52 35.86%

If we ignore the people that weren't sure, almost 49% of respondents that were sure, (52/107) say their STi pings.

By far pinging on <94 AKI was most common though without asking those people without pinging what octane they are running I am not sure you can draw too many conclusions that running 94 is ok (you'd really need to look at the ratio of pinging/not at each octane level though of course common sense dictates the people running 91-92 are more likely to have it).

My car is still wildly intermittent. WOT to redline seems to work just fine but every now and then I'll hit the gas (even after an IC water shot) and I'll get a big series of loud pings. In fact the other day in 2nd gear it pinged the entire way through the gear (couldn't back off quick enough) but then yesterday it didn't ping once.

I'm pretty much in agreement with the Shiv and Nathan that it just feels like the advance around 4k is too aggressive. More surprising is that the ECM just seems to ignore the detonation when it happens.

As before, I'm nervous about the long term effects on the motor, but I'm also pretty confident that Subaru (who have such a strong engineering focus inside the company) will address it.

I'm still happy I have the car.

Glenn

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
I'm still happy I have the car.

YES !

I love my STI despite the occasional pings. It's still a killer car. I think there's a bit mre being made of this issue than it warrants, and like you I expect it will be sorted out.

Thanks for the summary.

To the comments that this is a transient issue related to engine temp I have to report that on my drive in to work today, on a 78 degree morning, at less than 5 minutes running time I (again) experienced det accelerating hard out of 4th.
(Against my better judgement but I had to try!)

I'm *pretty sure* the IC wasn't heat soaked, nor was any wheel slip was occuring, or so on and so on.

I've definitely experienced it on 95-100+ degree days as well, usually at highway speed (5th or 6th) but always only under aggressive acceleration (eg passing).

Of course I'm in CA 91 octane hell :( but has anyone running higher oct. had similar (temp independent) findings?

Originally posted by darthdiggler

What will you guys do ? Buy your "second choice" car ?.:confused:



hmmm.... I'm gonna wait until they fix the problem and if not to much (HP) is compromised, I'll buy it then.

Sounds Crazy don't it.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


Shiv -- if you're reading care to guess? 285BHP?

Should keep on making a full 300hp since the pinging problem is happening around peak torque, not peak hp. Torque output @ 4000rpm, however, may fall a bit once remapped.

Cheers,
shiv

I took mine to the dealer yesterday to let them hear the ping. They heard it and will be reporting it to subaru.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
If we ignore the people that weren't sure, almost 49% of respondents that were sure, (52/107) say their STi pings.



Except for the fact that people are capable of checking all four octane levels, or more likely, are capable of checking 93, 92, and 91, if their car pings on 93. So many votes may be repeated.

I have said it before, the results of this poll do not say anything accurately, and should have been reworked to allow only one check box per vote. It should also have been split into three different polls, one regarding octane, one regarding ethanol, and a third regarding how the ECU reacts to the pinging.

4v: You can only vote once. At least, I have not been able to vote a second time. And since my response has changed from "smooth" to "pinging on 93" (once I started getting on it a bit in warm weather), and I have no way of changing my vote, I assume that others are in the same situation.

OK some more data.

I`m from Montreal and I own an STi. IT`s on a steady diet of Petro-Canada 94 or Sunoco 94 (when I'm in the states). It had never pinged. I have 2700 KM.

Today I was in NY State and on the way back I topped the last half of my tank with Mobil 93 before crossing the border. I had to wait for 30 minutes with engine on at the border. The weather was 30 celcius. Right after being cleared by the border guard, I did 3 or 4 WOT runs between 3000-5000 RPM in third gear. The first two runs gave me what I think is pinging @4000 . It was like 50 little tic-tic-tics coming from the engine for 1-2 seconds. Not very loud but pretty distinct. I guess after two runs the ram air just cooled whatever got hot during the border wait because I have never been able to reproduce it afterwards. No hills involved.

So for me it was two new factors: doing WOT runs after waiting 30 minutes with engine on and Mobil 93.

----

On another note, today I learned that octane levels is also known as AKI (Anti Knock Index) and if I understand well octane is basically there just for it's anti knock capabilties. As per the Sti Owners manual, the car REQUIRES fuel with an AKI of 93. Which brings the question : how can we expect the car not to knock if we feed it with fuel with an AKI of 91 :confused:

2.5 Liter (Turbo) models
Use premium unleaded gasoline with an octane
rating of 94 AKI or higher. If premium unleaded
gasoline with an octane rating of 93 AKI
is not available, premium unleaded gasoline
with octane rating of 91 AKI or higher may be
temporarily used. For optimum engine performance
and driveability, it is recommended that
you use premium grade unleaded gasoline
with an octane rating of 93 AKI or higher.
the container.

This quote is from a PDF version of the Sti Owners manual downloaded at http://techinfo.subaru.com (is that 94 a typo?)

Some Octane stuff for newbs like me: http://ubermensch.org/Cars/Technical/Octane

I wonder if you guys have ended up with a crappy tune just like the first batch of Oz STi's got

Theirs was worse - LOTS of dead engines with blown pistons fixed under warranty

From memory, the tune was not fixed correctly for the gas/temp combination

I posted a full article on the STi Australia debacle some time ago --- the issue was running at high RPM WOT (det is harder to hear there too).

Thankfully my car is fine at higher RPM --- it is just right around 4000 that the pinging shows up. From what Shiv and NMyeti say, this is a common malady at least with the cars they've seen.

But you think Subaru would have learned from their prior mistakes.

Glenn

Heaven forbid anyone would want to run an STI at high rpm wide open throttle.......like what the hell else would you do with this kind of car. Whole thing is kinda disappointing and speaks very poorly of Subaru's vaunted engineering prowess IMHO.

Don't mix up Subaru and SOA. Subaru=good...

;)

SOA, I assume, had nothing to do with the ECU or tuning the 2.5 liter motor. I believe that would have been done by those folks at FHI in the land of the Rising Sun......

To be precise, all modern internal combustion engines pre-detonate. Ignition timing is designed for the purpose of building intracylinder pressure just as the piston passes top-dead-center. Back in the old days, we used to tune our race cars by advancing the timing until we heard the noises of excessive pre-detonation and then backing off until they ALMOST went away.

The key is not whether there is pre-detonation or whether you can hear it, the key is knowing whether the increase in cylinder pressures and heat resulting from the pre-detonation is more than the structure of the motor can handle. Without a doubt, a motor can be built to withstand MASSIVE pre-detonation. In fact, there are simply millions of these motors in common use. And they are the most reliable internal combustion engines available.

From a purely engineering standpoint, pinging is not always the sign of something going terribly wrong. The right amount of audible pre-detonation can be the sign of a perfectly tuned motor.

From the consumer perspective, we don't like the noise. It worries us. We think we have bad gasoline. We want it to go away and be quiet. I find it amusing that people are seeking higher and higher octane to blunt the noise and the STi ECU is just lapping it up by advancing the timing more and more to keep the engine on the noisy edge of predetonation.

Remember that this engine has a knock sensor (or maybe two) and that the engineers have tuned this monster for power not subtlety. I think it's entirely possible that the Subie engineers are tearing their hair out over this incredibly ignorant thread of discussion, knowing that all this bitching and threatening legal action is going to force them to detune the motor just to satisfy a few neophytes.

When you bring an uncompromised car like this to the street, you hope the buyers are smart enough to understand the whirrs, the clunks, the knocks and bangs that come with the territory.

I encourage all of you to go drive a real race car sometime... one with straight cut gears, dog clutches and a locker rear axle. One with a MoTec engine management system in it. One that whines like a banshee, goes BANG BANG like you dropped a metal tool box full of wrenches when you shift gears, knocks like a diesel everytime you open the throttle at 3K rpm. Ahh... I can smell the amsoil now!

So, will you children please put good gas in your cars and shut up before you force Subaru's lawyers to make this car all sweet and boring?

Audible detonation is definitely not good. Detonation that is too faint to hear except with a stethoscope is where you want to be, once you can hear it over the engine at WOT, you are already knocking hard. I'd like my car to last a long time. Race engines don't last 80k+ miles.

Also, there is no such thing as pre-detonation. There's pre-ignition, but that's a whole different set of problems and on cars with over 100hp/l, you won't pre-ignite for long until your engine sounds like 100 potato chip bags getting crushed. :eek:


OldnSlow: SOA does have some input, but mostly from a marketing side. For instance, what if this engine should really be making 290, but SOA wanted to hit 300 for the magazines? That's a guess, but I'm sure this is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

MTB... your point is well taken. I haven't had any pre-ignition (predetonation... semantics) noise in my STi on 93 in 100F 60% rel humidity of Houston. So i'm the the group that doesn't have the problem... yet.

Your point about blowing motors is just as valid as my comment about the fact that a motor CAN be engineered to handle it. Diesel engines are all about ignition prior to TDC. Cylinder pressures in a diesel would make most gas engines turn to silvery confetti. But even regular gas engine blocks can make good diesels with the right rods, bearings, pistons (obviously), etc.

So.... it comes back to whether the Subie geeks have made the knock sensor pull the timing back enough or drop the boost enough (if the ECU does that) to provide the RIGHT amount of pre-ignition for the block, the rods, the pistons, etc.

I must admit, I don't really expect this motor to go 80k....

Konekiller. Well, I'll defer to your race experience, but my race/street 911 motor I'm told was good for about 40hours on the track before a rebuild would be needed. That's a little less than what I got out of it before rod bearing failure (that actually was quite a few years of track and race days, along with street driving, of course). It is a twin plug/ high compression tuned to NOT detonate and to my knowledge it never did detonate (although that would be difficult to hear over the exhaust). You may be right that 80K miles is all folks will get out of the STI, but I would expect a car driven only on the street should get more than that before needing a rebuild since you won't reach the sustained high revs of track driving. I agree that folks that do a lot of road course events should not expect as long a life on their STI motor. Since it is such a new motor we don't really having any baseline for longivity.

My STi was built in 03-03. I have followed the break in procedure to a T and use 93 octane gas. I have about 1700 miles on it and since 1001 miles have been occasionally driving it hard. Even on hot, close to 90 degree days, I have still not heard any pining or detonation.

It has been in the hight 90's for several days here in Portland and I haven't noticed any pinging. But, I am still in the break in period and I do not get the turbo kicking in much. I also don't get above 4k so it will be interesting to see what happens when I can open it up.

Trust me if my car is pinging and I have to be tenacious about it to get service...well lets just say I can be a D*&k if I have to. But Carr Subaru should treat me right (they did on my last two cars). You hear me Carr? Don't make a liar out of me.

i would expect at least 100,000 miles on this engine if maintained correctly. There is no reason for it not to last, its a production engine that isnt highly stressed.

I installed a SECS data display unit in my STI. It has parameters that you can monitor straight from the ECU. One of them is Knock Correction. I watched, (or had a passenger watch), during different scenarios to see what was going on.

I have not experienced audible pinging/det. I'm not a trained ear, but I haven't heard anything out of the ordinary.

In almost all situations, uphill downhill, WOT, just cruising, etc. where I am running boost (> 0psi), the KC (knock correction) parameter shows values going from zero with no throttle to around 5 or more degrees. What does this mean? am i getting knock and the ECU is correcting it all the time? Is this normal?

A few more notes on my observations of the values I've gotten off the unit. The road speed reads 2-3 mph lower on the ECU(SECS unit) than on the Speedo. Also my peak boost under heavy acceleration is 15.1psi!!! thats with only a few pulls, it seems a bit high.

Also I'm getting an oil temperature alarm, (user presets alarm value), i didn't know the ECU read oil temp I thought a probe kit was required to get this?

If anyone can help me clear a few of these things up it would be appreciated. Sorry for some OT, just rambling

Originally posted by johnfelstead
i would expect at least 100,000 miles on this engine if maintained correctly. There is no reason for it not to last, its a production engine that isnt highly stressed.

Cousin had over 230,000 on his old 1st gen Mitsu Eclipse AWD turbo, and that was probably a more stressed engine.
Had to rebuild the turbo, but that's to be expected.

80,000 is insanely low, that's only ~5yrs @ 15k/yr

I have the same unit on my STI. Mark at Quantum-Racing and Simon at PSI3 both confirmed that KC shows the timing advance or retard the ECU is making. Unless you see a negative number, you are not knocking (unless your ears tell you otherwise).

There is no oil temp or oil pressure sensor (idiot light doesn't count), so you can ignore those alarms.

Hope this helps.


Originally posted by StealthWagon
I installed a SECS data display unit in my STI. It has parameters that you can monitor straight from the ECU. One of them is Knock Correction. I watched, (or had a passenger watch), during different scenarios to see what was going on.

I have not experienced audible pinging/det. I'm not a trained ear, but I haven't heard anything out of the ordinary.

In almost all situations, uphill downhill, WOT, just cruising, etc. where I am running boost (> 0psi), the KC (knock correction) parameter shows values going from zero with no throttle to around 5 or more degrees. What does this mean? am i getting knock and the ECU is correcting it all the time? Is this normal?

A few more notes on my observations of the values I've gotten off the unit. The road speed reads 2-3 mph lower on the ECU(SECS unit) than on the Speedo. Also my peak boost under heavy acceleration is 15.1psi!!! thats with only a few pulls, it seems a bit high.

Also I'm getting an oil temperature alarm, (user presets alarm value), i didn't know the ECU read oil temp I thought a probe kit was required to get this?

If anyone can help me clear a few of these things up it would be appreciated. Sorry for some OT, just rambling

hi gang
no pinging on my sti
but i have a uk spec and we have
decent gas over here...98 ron
andy

Originally posted by mtb_dude
OldnSlow: SOA does have some input, but mostly from a marketing side. For instance, what if this engine should really be making 290, but SOA wanted to hit 300 for the magazines? That's a guess, but I'm sure this is a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Actually, it was originally making 310. They thought 300 gave it a bit more margin to work in.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Originally posted by scoobieblue
98 ron
andy [/B]

Drool.....

Still pinging on 91. Visited the dealer last week and had them check the pinging as well as fixing the inop trunk release. I spoke with the one STI trained tech there and explained that i've been a mechanic for 9 years and I know what I've been hearing is pinging. He went on to give me the old "the car was designed for 93 octane minimum" line. He seemed to agree with me that the ecu will probably get a re-flash eventually, but when?
How long do we have to wait just to have the proper programming for no-ping running on 91 octane?! Also all you people running 93 with pinging! I don't want to have to drive 45 minutes and pay 4 dollars a gallon for 100+octane just to avoid this software mistake! Time for e-mail #2 to SOA....

So if Subaru remaps the ECU and the car makes less power than advertised, will we be compensated for it? Rebates maybe? I'll gladly pay $28K for a car with only 280HP :).

Originally posted by wolverine


Drool.....

Quit drooling. 98 RON is equal to 93 R+M/2, which is the measuring system we use here.

broke 1k miles, first opportunity to run wot i did... 2nd gear, 4kish, louder than i imagined in my worst case scenario book. this is not a casual, acceptable, or normal ping. I have not reproduced it, since anything that bad would be extremely detrimental to my engine. i did not have the balls to "power through it" and "let the ecu correct it". i'm on my way to subaru for a complimentary 1k mile inspection this week.

93 octane in northern Alabama. Temp. has varied from 75-95, humidity has gone from dry to raining hard. 500 miles so far and no audible detonation.

RN

Originally posted by shin
broke 1k miles, first opportunity to run wot i did... 2nd gear, 4kish, louder than i imagined in my worst case scenario book. this is not a casual, acceptable, or normal ping. I have not reproduced it, since anything that bad would be extremely detrimental to my engine. i did not have the balls to "power through it" and "let the ecu correct it". i'm on my way to subaru for a complimentary 1k mile inspection this week.

What kind of gas?

Originally posted by Tanman
So if Subaru remaps the ECU and the car makes less power than advertised, will we be compensated for it? Rebates maybe? I'll gladly pay $28K for a car with only 280HP :).

So far the ping/det is in the 4000 to 5000rpm range. Your peak hp point is higher than that. If Subaru needed to "detune" the car, it would be at that range, but not higher up in the range, thus while you may lose a tad bit of mid-range grunt, you wouldn't lose the advertised 300hp.

IMO, it seems more a problem with the knock detection and resulting compensation than anything, given that there are people running just fine on 91 octane.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

I heard some kind of hiccup but it didn't sound like recordings of detonation I've heard and it was at low RPM too.

RN

I would like to know how many of these "smooth as glass" people actually know what pinging sounds like. I'm guessing the majority of them are just not driving the car hard enough to experience the pinging. Unless this really is not as wide spread of a problem, although I think it now could be. I would think the same goes for the people who voted "not sure". Conclusion.. go drive your car the way it should be driven and find out!

Originally posted by Noodles
I would like to know how many of these "smooth as glass" people actually know what pinging sounds like. I'm guessing the majority of them are just not driving the car hard enough to experience the pinging. Unless this really is not as wide spread of a problem, although I think it now could be. I would think the same goes for the people who voted "not sure". Conclusion.. go drive your car the way it should be driven and find out!

Even one of the tuners noted that while his car pinged/detted, a customers car did not, or more accurately, it did once and the ECU did it's job and corrected for it.

I won't venture a guess on how widespread this is - not every owner of the STi is on this site, and owners that don't have problems are less likely to be posting - but I can say it's not a 100% problem so far.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Well I will say that I have about 1400 miles on mine and although I dont necessaraly know execatly what audible det sounds like I did vote smooth as glass. However I have been driving the car hard and have carefully listened for any noises and I havent heard the slightest ping.

For all those who say ping or not ping, could you please specify the octane and gas station that they are using? Thanks.

Originally posted by wolverine
For all those who say ping or not ping, could you please specify the octane and gas station that they are using? Thanks.

Dealer filled at Shell, 93 octane. My next fill-up was at a Shell, I believe, 93 octane. Last fill-up was Conoco, 93 octane. Today I know I'm filling up at Shell or Exxon, 93 octane.

RN

Originally posted by urs4


What kind of gas?

without detective work, the best i can track down is 92. been filling up at the same gas station since day one. wish i could find better :)

I haven't voted yet, because I want to monitor my findings more. I broke 1,000 miles today and did my first WOT push...detonation, right at 4K rpms as per usual. Got it a couple times. Today was about 85º and I was using Unocal 76 91 octane. I've got xylene handy for my Grand National, so I threw in 1.25 gallons to the ~ 8 gallons in the tank (+ 1 oz Marvels Mystery Oil). After about 10 or so WOT blasts, zero detonation. Oh btw, the mofo is MBF'n quick!!! The octane now is ~ 94.5 +/- 0.5.

I keep reading posts of people saying that they've got 500 or 700 miles on their car and haven't heard any knock. Are you stating this in regards to WOT blasts? I still feel there are some out there that don't know what detonation is, and more importantly, realize that you will only hear it at WOT, if you hear it. So I'm guessing that those with less than 1K miles don't know what it is, think they might hear it with only "spirited" driving, or have forgone the break in.

I forget where I saw the thread, but somewhere (possibly posted by God @ godspeed.com), I saw some timing graphs, which show a trippy spike (advance) in the timing right at 4K rpms. I'm willing to bet large that this is the reason for the det. Anyone remember where that thread (and the posted graphs) are?

Originally posted by shirokuma
So far the ping/det is in the 4000 to 5000rpm range. Your peak hp point is higher than that. If Subaru needed to "detune" the car, it would be at that range, but not higher up in the range, thus while you may lose a tad bit of mid-range grunt, you wouldn't lose the advertised 300hp.

A "tad bit" :rolleyes:

The ad also says 300 ft/lbs...

Bad news guys, check out the reply I got from Subaru today:

> I reviewed you concern with a field service engineer. At this time
we do
> not have a counter-measure for your concern. I report that during
our
test
> drive, I heard a pinging noise for about 1-2 seconds at approximately
4,000
> rpm with at least 80% throttle opening.
>
> The field service engineer agreed with me that what you heard was
probably
> trace engine pinging and not detonation. I mention the websites and
that
> independent testing was performed and the conclusion of ignition
timing
was
> a suspect.
>
> I did attend a New Model Class and discovered that the STI does not
have
an
> EGR valve. Usually the EGR will permit exhaust gases to re-circulate
into
> the engine cylinders which decreases the action of ignition.
However,
your
> vehicle is equipped with variable valve timing. The action of the
variable
> valve timing in one sense acts like an EGR valve by having the
exhaust and
> intake valve open at the same time.
>
> The field engineer only suggestion is to continue to try different
brands
of
> gasoline but the likelihood of reducing trace pinging is slim. We
will
> continue to monitor this condition and determine if we can provide a
> counter-measure. I would like to test drive your vehicle again is
the
> pinging increases in intensity or if a different noise starts to
occur.
>

Reducing trace pinging is SLIM.....

orthojoe

EGR is not open when you are at wide open throttle. And I doubt that the variable cam phasing would try and operate in such a manner at wide open throttle.

Looks like they are feeding you crap and are not going to do anything about it, then, just like in other countries...

I hope you do not have any modifications on your car as to not invalidate the warranty...

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
EGR is not open when you are at wide open throttle. And I doubt that the variable cam phasing would try and operate in such a manner at wide open throttle.

I thought more agressive cams always had more overlap. Not that it would make much difference at WOT with a turbo.

I would think the best and easiest solution would be to install a water/alcohol injection system. Of course, if Subaru won't acknowledge that there's a problem, they sure as hell won't allow water injection under warranty. If you have the problem, and plan to add any type of boost control, or just don't care about the warranty, water injection would be a good solution.

You've said this in 2 posts now. Got any facts and specifics to back it up?

Originally posted by FYI
Looks like they are feeding you crap and are not going to do anything about it, then, just like in other countries...

Originally posted by STiBro
I keep reading posts of people saying that they've got 500 or 700 miles on their car and haven't heard any knock. Are you stating this in regards to WOT blasts? I still feel there are some out there that don't know what detonation is, and more importantly, realize that you will only hear it at WOT, if you hear it. So I'm guessing that those with less than 1K miles don't know what it is, think they might hear it with only "spirited" driving, or have forgone the break in.


I have only 500 miles on mine; so, I haven't done any WOT nor gone over the 4K limit. Therefore, I haven't voted. Also, I haven't heard any pinging at all. All I hear is just the turbo whine and the boxer sound. Just a reminder, please don't vote "smooth as glass" if you haven't gone over 4K and WOT. BTW, I'm on California 91.

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
EGR is not open when you are at wide open throttle. And I doubt that the variable cam phasing would try and operate in such a manner at wide open throttle.

Under WOT, the Subaru VVT system increases cam overlap. Jon in CT posted this article quite some time back which gives a very good explanation of the system.

http://jon.in.ct.home.att.net/2004AVCS.pdf


-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Originally posted by hatchy
You've said this in 2 posts now. Got any facts and specifics to back it up?

Sure. Why dont you read the internet and find out by yourself instead of doubting my every post?

Allrighty Hatchy and FYI, you were two of the reasons that I had to spend half a day cleaning this thread out. In case you two had trouble reading my explanation, these threads are about real pertinent info, snide snotty comments and flame wars will not be tolerated. :mad:

If you have a problem with someone take it off the board, don't show your ego in here.

Exactly. Where is the "pertinent" info? Can you just post whatever "facts" you want to this thead?

Originally posted by deadbolt
In case you two had trouble reading my explanation, these threads are about real pertinent info, snide snotty comments and flame wars will not be tolerated. :mad:

If you have a problem with someone take it off the board, don't show your ego in here.

Hello All, :)

There has been some concern that 'fixing' the 'detonation' problem on the STiez will cause some sort of power 'loss.'

I would like to state that detonation is itself a power loss, and by (probably) retarding the ignition just a tad to solve the problem, would might produce a power gain at the detonation spot on the STi, but I wouldn't expect a power loss.

In the mean time, I wish Subaru would come out with an official statement concerning this detonation issue. Perhaps with some technical data behind it.

Yes...the owner's manual states that STi owners should run a consistent 93 octane, but SOA should be wise enough to know most of the cars won't be able to find 93 octane that easily...

Cheers,

jcnel.

this is just plain DUMB, they KNOW PERFECTLY we only get 91 in CALIFORNIA, that is just a horrible blunder :mad:

this is just plain DUMB, they KNOW PERFECTLY we only get 91 in CALIFORNIA, that is just a horrible blunder :mad:

Originally posted by zacek
this is just plain DUMB, they KNOW PERFECTLY we only get 91 in CALIFORNIA, that is just a horrible blunder :mad:

No. It is plain dumb that the rest of us have to accept less than we should just because California has too many tree huggers up their ass. I wish more manufacturers would build cars like my '95 SE-R, that are not legal in California, rather than bend over backwards for a miniscule percent of the population.

And if those same tree huggers have their way, California will pass even stricter emissions laws that include CO2. Personally, I would prefer that they stop talking so much if they are worried about CO2, but then I am not a registered voter in California, so I can't do anything about it. It's just hard to believe that if all of those car enthusiasts I am always hearing about in California are all voting against these measures, and writing their state congress about how these laws suck, that they continue to pass. I sure hope everyone in California complaining about pinging on 91 has done everything in their power to try to stop or change the continuous progression of fanatical environmentalism. Otherwise, I don't want to hear it.

I have 1200 miles on my car. The temp here is in the lower 90s every day and we frequently have humidity at 100%. I have made several wot runs in 1,2,3,4, and 5 gear (although I did not redline in 5th took it up to 5700 rpm). The outside temp has never been lower than 80 degrees. I run 93 octane only. I still have had no audible det. I have been listening HARD for pinging after reading the various threads about this problem and so far so good. My ABS light is still on however. :rolleyes:

You'll only hear knock when going WOT from lower rpm (2500-3000) up through 4k... you'll hear it ping at 4k... if you go WOT through 1st and shift at high rpms, you wont be in the rpm range to detonate... the car will run smoothly if you drive it that way. That being said, it seems some people dont get detonation at all no matter what... so something is different about the cars that detonate.

What about the issue of boost pressure? It seems stock boost levels are ranging from 14-17psi. Could that be an issue? Those running boost high stock are getting det? I dont have a boost gauge yet, so I can't tell you what I'm running. What about the issue with people noticing that the silicone hose connecting the TMIC to the throttle body having a loose connection? I noticed that my coupler was loose and tightened down on it several weeks ago....am I running higher boost now b/c of it and that's why i'm detonating? Maybe I'll try loosening it like it was before....

Anyway, I'm still pretty darn disappointed with the response I got from Subaru the other day... I'm kind of at a loss on what to do next.... I really don't see Subaru doing anything about this issue. Do I wait for the aftermarket people to fix it? Do I sell the car and get an EVO and take a loss? Tough choice... I really do like the Subaru better, but I don't know if I can deal with this knock.

orthojoe

I have gone WOT from a dead stop in 1st and also just ran the car from 2000 rpm up in 2,3,4 still no det.

Originally posted by VVVV


No. It is plain dumb that the rest of us have to accept less than we should just because California has too many tree huggers up their ass. I wish more manufacturers would build cars like my '95 SE-R, that are not legal in California, rather than bend over backwards for a miniscule percent of the population.

And if those same tree huggers have their way, California will pass even stricter emissions laws that include CO2. Personally, I would prefer that they stop talking so much if they are worried about CO2, but then I am not a registered voter in California, so I can't do anything about it. It's just hard to believe that if all of those car enthusiasts I am always hearing about in California are all voting against these measures, and writing their state congress about how these laws suck, that they continue to pass. I sure hope everyone in California complaining about pinging on 91 has done everything in their power to try to stop or change the continuous progression of fanatical environmentalism. Otherwise, I don't want to hear it.

One day you will regret your blinkered thinking. I am not a "tree hugger" but i do see the benefits for us long term for more eficient use fo fuel and reductions in greenhouse gas emisions, (i think the Catalitic convertor is a huge mistake and we should have gone down the lean burn technology route too). it's a shame that people like you only care about yourself and what happens to you now. Its people like you that force the USA to withdraw from any agreements to save the long term future of our envirnment. In the US, an average person consumes more than four times as much fuel as the rest of the world, and more than twice as much as in Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furniture/in_depth/world/2000/cost_of_fuel/oil_use_b.gif

Probably because of the 2 stroke lawn trimmers, mowers and blowers and trucks and SUVs that have to meet drastically relaxed emissions standards.....

I have made several wot runs in 1,2,3,4, and 5 gear (although I did not redline in 5th took it up to 5700 rpm).

That's not the way to get it to ping. By taking it near redline you'll be > 4000 RPM in the next gear after your shift.

Instead, try cruising at 3000-3500 RPM in 3rd or 4th and then floor it.

Glenn

Lets see. I have tried to make this car ping. Driving along at 2000 rpm and punching it in 2,3,4 gear.Brought the car up to about 3000 rpm in 4th and punched it. I think you are missing the point my car does not ping. :banana: I guess I finally had a stroke of good luck.

Originally posted by johnfelstead
In the US, an average person consumes more than four times as much fuel as the rest of the world, and more than twice as much as in Europe.
The reason for it is a style of life in US not performance cars. Count all these overweight SUVs carrying one person to and from work. Another problem is a lack of good public transportation. I live in Chicago metro where I heard it's one of the best in country. Well, if I would try to use it I'll be going to work about 1.5 hours. In a car it's between 30-45 minutes. If I could take a train and be sure I'll get in about an hour I'd switch ASAP.

Originally posted by CANAILLE
I think you are missing the point my car does not ping. :banana: I guess I finally had a stroke of good luck.
I thought the same untill a hot day and city traffic. It pings when IC is heat soaked and I push more then half of the throttle.

I just returned from dealership and meeting with the Shop Foreman. He hooked up the Select Monitor and we went for a long ride. I was easily able to induce the crackling/rattling sound under hard acceleration, mainly between 4-5K RPMs. The Shop Foreman agreed the sound was due to detonation and the monitor recorded the retarding of the timing (2-5.5 degrees). Each episode of detonation lasted less than 2 seconds, then resolved despite my continued acceleration.

He explained that the car is doing this by design, continually seeking max power and efficiency within the ever changing variables such as temp., hummidity, etc. The detonation is being compensated for by retarding the timing each time it occurs, apparently well before any damage is actually done. He said the use of higher octane gas will not prevent the computer from maximizing power to the point of detonation, followed by timing retard and resolution of the detonation.

I asked why some STi's have audible detonation and other don't. He suggested the variences between each car may account for that in some way. The eample given was that there are slight difference in amount of compression, the electrical hardware may vary slightly in terms of performance etc. etc.

I was reassured that everything is working within specs and that I should not be concerned unless the detonation persisted beyond the initial 1-2 second of hard acceleration. If detonation becomes more pronounced then drive it gently and take into dealership.

Does anyone have any more information to support this, ideally from an unbiased source?

Got my car yesterday. 7.5 Miles on it and today have 270 mile, no pings, knocks, slams or weird noises. Is a a sweet car :banana:

Hi, I'm new here and I don't have an STi, but I am planning to get a 2005.

Just thought I'd mention a few things. Regarding gas consumption, it makes sense that americans use 4 times more gas b/c our gas is usually 1/4 the price of anywhere else in the world. Most other countries are $1-2 per LITER. And long run, we do need to keep watching out for the environment. I think it's a great testament to technology that we can even GET a 300 HP car with all the laws we have now. 20 years ago, heck 10 years ago, it would be unthinkable!

On the honda Accord, they actually released a different engine (technically just some head changes) in California so that it would be ULEV and 148HP instead of the standard LEV 150HP. Too bad Subaru couldn't do something like that for you poor CA people with only 91 octane gas, but considering the limited production, I guess it's not easy. Hopefully by the time I'm ready to buy next year, things will have been settled with this whole pinging thing. Hope you guys who already have STis find some solutions!

Originally posted by filbert
it makes sense that americans use 4 times more gas b/c our gas is usually 1/4 the price of anywhere else in the world.

:huh::) : :eek: :banana: :furious:

Originally posted by DRE1
I was reassured that everything is working within specs and that I should not be concerned unless the detonation persisted beyond the initial 1-2 second of hard acceleration. If detonation becomes more pronounced then drive it gently and take into dealership.BS. Every single ping you hear is doing damage. Not much, but some. Continued pinging (even light pinging) over time will severely shorten engine life.

Americans use more gas before we drive a lot more.
This country is HUGE compared to the European countries and the transit system is based on personal transport like cars.
Public transport in the US cities totally suck compared to the ones in Europe.
So, that's why everyone drives and increase the gas consumption.

Originally posted by JDMTEG98
Got my car yesterday. 7.5 Miles on it and today have 270 mile, no pings, knocks, slams or weird noises. Is a a sweet car :banana:

Are you flooring it? You do realize that you'll only hear detonation at WOT, I hope. And if so, you're thrashing your incredible new motor by not breaking it in properly.

Originally posted by RA29
Public transport in the US cities totally suck compared to the ones in Europe.
So, that's why everyone drives and increase the gas consumption.

Actually, it's the other way around. Public transport sucks b/c everyone drives. It was the big three that pushed to get rid of trains and replace them with busses and they pushed the idea of driving and everyone owning a car into the culture. Now it's just snowballing.

Originally posted by Austin
BS. Every single ping you hear is doing damage. Not much, but some. Continued pinging (even light pinging) over time will severely shorten engine life.

Austin, please... there really is a matter of degree here. You sound almost hysterical. You could just as easily and correctly make the statement that... "every time you use Wide Open Throttle it is doing some damage. Not much, but some. Continued use of WOT over time will severely shorten engine life" and it would be true. So what? I didn't buy this car to last forever, I bought it to race on the track and enjoy on the street until it goes BOOM!

That said, there are engines out there that are designed to 'ping' constantly and drive over 300,000 miles without a rebuild.

It all depends on what is engineered into the motor. I don't know the degree of pinking you are experiencing, but I know what I've heard in my STi and it's not alarming.

I also don't know how stout the design of this motor is, but my impression is that it is stout. Closed decks, short stiff forged crank... what more could you want? If Subaru is telling me that the motor can handle a few pings or even knocks, I'm going to accept that for now.

If we start seeing a bunch of holed pistons or broken rods in UNMODDED motors (if there are any left), then I'll start asking more questions.

That having been said, if you have severe continued knocking that is repeatable on good gas, then you may have a defective knock sensor or ECU. I do not doubt the possibility that individual cars have defects that might cause pinging, but I do reject (at this point) that there is a global design flaw.

I'm actually more concerned that SOA will reflash the ECU to quiet the squawking on these message boards and leave me with less power when the motor was actually perfectly fine all along. Be careful what you ask for. You might just get it.

Originally posted by KoneKiller
I don't know the degree of pinking you are experiencing, but I know what I've heard in my STi and it's not alarming.
I've driven 2 STi's, both of which pinged and cracked very badly. The 3rd STi I have experience with I was only a passenger in, and it pinged only a couple times... but he was wrapping it out to redline, so as to not induce pinging.

I drove the STi of WorldOnePerformance. Pinging for at least 2 solid seconds everytime you drove through 4K rpm @ or close to max boost. Absolutely horrid. Pinging would echo off the sidewalk curbs, ehco off of bushes on the side of the road. Usually I like to turn the stereo and AC off and roll up the windows to carefully listen for any pinging sounds... No need in this STi. You could still hear cracking from the motor at 50mph with all the windows down and the stereo playing.

Wanna know what his dealer told him? "Go back out to your car, get your owner's manual, and we'll read together from page 7. IT"S NORMAL!" I think if my service guy ever talked to me that way I'd reach over the counter, grab his ears & let him kiss the counter.

It's not normal, and it's not right. A few pings every tank of gas I'm fine with. The ECU is testing the octane and advance limits of the fuel - good. 2 solid seconds of pinging every time the motor runs through 4Krpm is very bad, 'mmmkay?

Originally posted by KoneKiller
If Subaru is telling me that the motor can handle a few pings or even knocks, I'm going to accept that for now.
Sure, any motor can handle a few pings and knocks. It can handle years and years of a few pings and knocks. But every ping and every knock pits the piston or cylinder wall - just a little bit, but it's still a pressure spike that causes damage.

Austin,

That pinging sounds horrible! What gas?

92 Octane. WorldOne said he's tried nearly every different brand he can find, with no change in det levels. Car is stock, except for a muffler.

Sounds like Konekiller has different expectations than many folks on this board about the longivity of cars he buys. He likely drives them hard, probably changes performance cars often, and may not be as concerned with long term reliability. I think most folks, who consider $32 lots of money, will be very concerned about long term effects of detonation. Austin doesn't sound like an alarmist to me. Rather, he reflects the general concerns of most STI owners on this issue, and he's very knowledgeable as well. This whole thing just smacks at a rushed development process to get this car out to compete with the EVO on Subaru's part. The test will be how Subaru responds to the issue, and how honestly they deal with the power rating of the motor after they change the ECU. Sometimes you do get what you pay for. The moral of the story to me: A $32 supercar, which is what the STI performance envelope surely is, is not a Porsche.

Originally posted by Austin


It's not normal, and it's not right. A few pings every tank of gas I'm fine with. The ECU is testing the octane and advance limits of the fuel - good. 2 solid seconds of pinging every time the motor runs through 4Krpm is very bad, 'mmmkay?


I really do not intend to sound insulting or start a flame here, but I feel you are oversimplifying this to the extreme.

First of all, I know of no ECU that keeps track of when you fill up and then actively 'tests' the fuel. It would be irrelevant anyway, because...

Second, and most importantly: pre-ignition is not simply a factor of octane. I won't try to go into all of the factors here, because I'll forget 20 or 30 of them and/or bore everyone to sleep. The ECU actively changes the boost, fuel and ignition mapping based on inputs from multiple sensors, including an accelerometer designed to detect knock.

Originally posted by Oldnslow
The test will be how Subaru responds to the issue, and how honestly they deal with the power rating of the motor after they change the ECU. Sometimes you do get what you pay for. The moral of the story to me: A $32 supercar, which is what the STI performance envelope surely is, is not a Porsche.

Slow... your point is well-taken. I have no doubt Subaru can pull the pre-ignition out of the motor by pulling a bit of advance and/or boost at about 4k rpm. I'll even bet that it won't change the BHP or torque numbers either.

What it will likely do is narrow the powerband a bit, which will make the car a bit slower on course and on the street. They can show the numbers, but it won't translate into the same performance. The HP number could stay at 300, the torque number could stay at 300, but the range of usable power could narrow, if that's what they wanted to do.

It's a matter of tinkering with the map and all about which set of compromises you wish to accept.

Originally posted by Austin

Wanna know what his dealer told him? "Go back out to your car, get your owner's manual, and we'll read together from page 7. IT"S NORMAL!" I think if my service guy ever talked to me that way I'd reach over the counter, grab his ears & let him kiss the counter.



I had to go look.... Page 7:

... the driver should always sit upright and well back in the seat as far from the steering wheel as practical......

It talks about the airbag and child safety.

Austin, what does it say on Page 7 of your STi manual?

Originally posted by KoneKiller


Slow... your point is well-taken. I have no doubt Subaru can pull the pre-ignition out of the motor by pulling a bit of advance and/or boost at about 4k rpm. I'll even bet that it won't change the BHP or torque numbers either.

What it will likely do is narrow the powerband a bit, which will make the car a bit slower on course and on the street. They can show the numbers, but it won't translate into the same performance. The HP number could stay at 300, the torque number could stay at 300, but the range of usable power could narrow, if that's what they wanted to do.

It's a matter of tinkering with the map and all about which set of compromises you wish to accept.

I wonder if that timing spike is intentional, designed specifically to momentarily challenge the motor to detonate, so that the ECU can learn where det. occurs. Otherwise, why would that funky spike be there?

DO NOT CALL OTHER MEMBERS NAMES, THIS IS A DOCUMENTED PROBLEM, GROW UP.

dude, you need to chill out with that.

Originally posted by mj13young
DO NOT CALL OTHER MEMBERS NAMES, THIS IS A DOCUMENTED PROBLEM, GROW UP.

Who are you referring to? Or was the post deleted?

deleted post. trust me, youre better off not reading what was written. would just cause anger. haha.

VVT may be the noise some of you are hearing. Any engine with some sort of variable valve timing will have a niosy valve train unless they use roller rockers and lifters (F20C S2000 engine's valvetrain is much quieter than an H22A Prelude motor) .

If the ECU programming is like the WRX, the engine will run lean for the 1st 60 seconds after you turn on the car. If you try and go WOT from low RPM, it will detonate. I ran a boost controller at 16 PSI on my WRX for 30K miles. While running very close to the limit, I would have to baby the engine for 60 seconds after turning it on and would often watch partial throttle high load situations. If I didn't, then the engine would fart like a bad boy (my expression). If you don't know what detonation is, then just listen to any FI car from the 80's or early 90's going up a steep hill. Still, the engines would last long.

The V6 from the turbo Regal's, TA's etc pinged often and it is a very strong and long lasting engine.

Has anyone heard a Turbo 2.5RS that is posting here? I have and talk about pinging and noisy! But still, the motor runs fine with the turbo.

Since no one has a known blown motor from this yet, it makes more sense that this amount of detonation is acceptable. You should follow the problems with the F20C. If there is a real problem where rods are thrown or pistons are getting holes in them, then Subaru will do something about it.

All this seems add up to is that the STI is a noisy car. Everything is going to be subjective until people start blowing motors. My WRX engine was fine even till its death (I hated waiting 60 seconds).

;)

A bad tank pf gas made me have to set the boost in my WRX to 9PSI (the turbo's wastegate spring rate) and it still detonated. That was one long 250 miles on that tank... :devil: :huh:

I too have heard pinging last weekend. I have an appointment with the dealer tommorrow to document this problem. Case# 516481. They have an STi specialist there and I will try to talk to him and see what he thinks.

Originally posted by gabedude
VVT may be the noise some of you are hearing. Any engine with some sort of variable valve timing will have a niosy valve train unless they use roller rockers and lifters (F20C S2000 engine's valvetrain is much quieter than an H22A Prelude motor) .

I've owned several VTEC Honda's, both H22 and B18C, and I never heard anything that remotely sounded like pinging from my motors. Under the right circumstances it was possible to hear the pin from the 3rd cam lobe engaging, but that was clearly not a pinging sound either. I have heard several VTEC Honda's pinging on the dyno, mostly they were JR supercharged with raised boost levels.


Since no one has a known blown motor from this yet, it makes more sense that this amount of detonation is acceptable.

The only problem I have with this is that the manual states that the engine may knock on rare occasions. It appears that many STi owners are experience this frequently not rarely.

Hi there...

I have tried to observe this conversation from afar for a while now. It has been interested to say the least. However since Austin has spoken of "PINGER" as a like to call her, I will be more than happy to see if i can contrbute to the goings on here

As Austin mentioned the pinging in my STi is quite pronounced. However the my STi also sufflers from increased stock boost levels as clearly indicated by exhibit A:

http://user937480.sf1000.registeredsite.com/Sti/PICT0011.JPG

Submitted for the jury is my boost gauge pegged at a peak 1.2kg/cm^2 or 17.0 PSi Before anyone cries foul on my boost gauge install let me assert that this is a Greddy PWH electronic warning gauge and it functions quite well. Secondly I have confirmed these boost levels with both another electrical and a mechanical gauge. These boost levels are actual barring any other anomaly in the boost control system.

This is not the level of boost that the car peaks at in all circumstances. Normal throttle inputs yield peak boost of about 1.1 kg/cm^2 which is still higher than stock levels. In order to achieve the pictured 1.2kg/cm^2 you have input 100% throttle and not let up. However the problem with the STi is that driving in the manner I described has the tendency to become normal very quickly.

My post however is not to say that if you do not achieve higher than stock (14.5psi) boost levels that I don't think that you have to worry about detonation. Believe if or not, more and more ping is not occuring any where near peak boost.

Detonation occurs at any point between 4 and 5K at anything above 70% throttle. We are not talking about single pings, We aer talking rapid fire. Think automatic pellet gun unloading into a coffee can and your not far off.

Fuel is 92 octane chevron, and sometimes texaco.

I hope this in some way builds to the body of evidense that already exists. And finally, I am persuing resolutions to this matter with all available channels.

Give us a call if you want to give me a call and chat about this or any other Sti concerns and we will do all that we can to shed some light.

Thanks

Garret
World One
www.worldoneperformance.com