Everything on my 'oo rs is stock. I can get an 18mm sway bar for around $90 or an adjustable one for 120. I have heard that with a stock suspension it is a good idea to go with an 18mm bar. My suspension probably will stay stock.

suspension has nothing to do with it.

your front sway bar = 19mm

your oem rear = 13mm

yikes... that = UNDERSTEER LIKE A PIG
(doesnt want to turn/pushes)

add a 18mm rear = neutral handling.
very little understeer/ very little oversteer = predictable

add a 20mm or larger bar = OVERSTEER
OR.... tail happy :) back end wants to come around...


all depends on your driving style, and preferences.

I prefer the 18mm STi bar myself...
and have had that on my RS since the first week
I owned it.... Neutral = so easy to drive....

my $.02....
Jamie http://www.subiegal.com/rallysmiley.gif

www.subiegalracing.com

I have an 18 mm Cusco rear sway bar. I also have a set of Whiteline endlinks on all four corners. On stock suspension, this makes a huge difference and takes a lot of the push/plow out of the front end. I also leave Florida frequently and don't want a larger rear sway bar because I drive in snow and some offroad situations and don't need to worry about oversteer. :)

Get rid of those crap plastic endlinks! Those plus an 18mm sway bar will really transform your RS. I'm amazed at the difference and its really worth it.

what makes you think the OEM end links are crap?

i've NEVER swapped mine... not on any of my cars..
including the rally cars.....

and i've seen whiteline steel end links snap like a twig...
not to mention they're a tick noisy... :)

so what makes the OEM ones so bad? :)

Jamie

yeah, why are the stock endlink are bad???

as for the sway bars, I got whiteline 18-22 adjustable and I actually feel more comfortable with 22 setting that 18 setting, the car feels more predictable on 22 also. Never did my car got overly tail happy, however I do have Yokohamas AVS 100s on and I have hard time breaking traction even in the rain.

I have an adjustable rear bar on my L. I like it at the setting which is equivilent to a 20mm bar, very nuetral although if loaded up in a turn the car will rotate nicely when you liftoff the throttle. Very predictable and stable. I do notice when i stiffen my settings on my struts on the track that the lift throttle oversteer is reduced unless i set the sway bar one notch stiffer. ill bet youde be happy with an 18mm bar, it will be an improvement over what you have.

i just recently swapped my 13mm rear to an 18mm rear and i feel very little difference...but i dont really drive roads that would feel the difference

on a stock suspension i had a 18mm which was great. then as i upgraded the springs ad shocks i bought a 20mm which felt even better. maybe get a whiteline adjustable from 18mm,19mm,20mm and try each position to see what fits your driving style.

must...get...sway bar. yeah i really dont like how much the stock rear sway bar makes the car want to plow *cough*hitcurbreallyhardinfourwheelslideandbentfro ntleftrimbecauseiwasstupidbutstillthecarhadsomefau lt*cough*

want to go 18mm STi but dont have the cash :(

Originally posted by Subie Gal
what makes you think the OEM end links are crap?

i've NEVER swapped mine... not on any of my cars..
including the rally cars.....

and i've seen whiteline steel end links snap like a twig...
not to mention they're a tick noisy... :)

so what makes the OEM ones so bad? :)

Jamie

I wasn't the one that said they were crap, but I can tell you my impressions...

I have a 20mm and whitelines all around on an otherwise stock suspension. Endlinks pretty much do what they're advertised and give you more bar eariler. With the endlinks, I noticed that at low-speeds the car just feels like it sticks to the road better. For example, there's a slight twisty downhill that I go down everyday to get to the freeway. I usually take it around 35mph, but the car seems more willing to turn with the endlinks.

Basically my upgrade path was this:
18mm bar = > :)
added rear endlinks => :D
added front endlinks => :( [understeered again]
swap 18 -> 20mm bar => :D

As for whitelines snapping, well, they were fairly cheap and easy to install. My thinking is that better those break before anything more expensive breaks/bends. I haven't noticed too much noise with them either, though I probably can't hear it over my stromung or stereo. ;)

For rallycars, I've heard that it's sometimes better to remove swaybars all together since they limit independant motion of the wheels.

Originally posted by Subie Gal
what makes you think the OEM end links are crap?

i've NEVER swapped mine... not on any of my cars..
including the rally cars.....

and i've seen whiteline steel end links snap like a twig...
not to mention they're a tick noisy... :)

so what makes the OEM ones so bad? :)

Jamie

Well said DoorKnob. I was the person who said that the stock links are garbage.

I tested my car on the same autocross course with stock endlinks versus replacements. I bought these long before Kartboy models were available--those will be my replacement if the Whitelines snap at some point. I had stock suspension, except for a 18mm rear sway bar. The car would exhibit a wicked push from the front end on the course with a set of newish Kumho 712s. After adding the front endlinks, the push was just about gone and the car became much more stable without the typical body roll. Turn in is also faster. I can live with the creak/clunk sound--it adds character. Its also allowed me to run RE92s without complaint as well. Due to my travels, I need something I can get at least 30000 miles out of that can deal with bitter cold and high heat. The endlinks make the car much more stable and allow me to explore its limits at events much faster...plus slightly used RE92s are also super cheap these days.


I've driven the car over 40000 miles on the Whitelines without a problem. They've been in weather from below zero F to over 100F. The car has been driven through rally stages, Jeep trails, long trips, and some of the best roads east of the Mississippi river and I've yet to break one.

Give it a try if you'd like and let us know what you think. The results on the RS will be suprising, that's what my findings have been. I haven't been in such a hurry to upgrade the struts and springs, however those will be coming soon.

Subie Gal: The swaybar engages smoothly. Thats the best way for me to describe it. The stock links torque under load, especially the bushings, which caused the swaybar to have a delayed effect (kind of all of a sudden engages rather than just operating properly the whole time you are cornering)

18mm, and the OE links work great. This setup gets me through the esses at VIR at 100mph+ easily. Very neutral.
Rob

I think the OEM links are crap! :D

For daily driving the are fine and quite comfortable to live with. But for agressive driving (auto-x) the OEM links are just too flexible. They are literally so soft that they absorb most of the tension before the sway bars start to do anything.

After installing a set of AGX struts and SPT springs, my suspension upgrade followed the path most recommended when I got my RS to rid the dreaded PUSH. I installed a STi 20mm rear bar first, the car felt better, but the push was still there. Next I added polyurethane bushings on both the front and rear swaybars, car again felt a little better but still exhibited a push. I then upgraded the rear bar again, this time installing an SPO adjustable rear bar set at 21mm, the bar also came with with the solid rear body mounts and solid metal endlinks w/poly bushings. This made the car feel almost perfect but there was still a definite push in the front. I also found out that the solid rear end links that came with the SPO kit were binding under full suspension travel, so I went and installed a set of Whiteline End links on both the front and the rear. The car immeadiately became very, very neutral. In addition the steering response was quicker and the car was just all around easier to drive fast, very tossable.

I thought the car was set up pretty good. In May of 2002 I found out just how good it was. At the Petersburg ProSolo Eric Kriemelmeyer ran into some car trouble during his Saturday runs, on Sunday I let him drive my car to complete his runs. Eric was able to beat his Saturday times in my car on Sunday, he also beat Richard West's times on the right course and was just a few tenths behind on the left course. Eric commented on how he was surprised at just how neutral my car was to drive and how it felt very similar to his. Now mind you, Eric was running full coilovers, camberplates, end links, etc. and his car had been cornerbalanced and professionally tuned...and my car felt almost as neutral as his.

Speaks volumes for how good some simple upgrades can be.

all IMHO of course.

so they're good for aggressive driving??? :lol:
and rally is for sissies right? :D

IMHO again....

i've just never seen the need to add the bling to my car.
that's all it is IMHO... bling.... eye candy.. another mod...

we're all entitled to an opinion right?
my experience on driving AGGRESSIVELY ....
many differently modded cars...
is that the OEM end links are just fine -

aftermarket end links look puuuuurty.. and make lots of noise
i noticed no real "difference" in performance when thrashing cars fitted with such vs those that had good suspension and a nice beefy sway bar with stock end links.... :)


it's all a matter of driving style maybe?
I prefer OEM... on all my cars...


side note .... dont the newer cars have
steel/alloy end links as OEM now?
:) maybe i'm missing something afterall.. :lol:

good discussion fellas... thanks!
Jamie

oh.. and Matt... yes i know it was you that said that they are no good.. i just didnt quote you.... DoorKnob... :p

:cool: :D

No problem. :)

Interesting point about the new Imprezas....I need to climb under the missus ;02 OBS and find out.

I do know that it does need a bigger rear sway bar...but it seems to have a lot less push at the limit. I guess the new Imprezas are better than I think. ;)

Originally posted by Subie Gal
so they're good for aggressive driving??? :lol:
and rally is for sissies right? :D

:lol: LOL, that's why I said (auto-x) behind it! :D
Never meant to imply that rally wasn't agressive, it's just a different type of aggressive than auto-x.

I think what it really comes down to is "feel". Everybody has a different opinion on how a well set up car should "feel". Some people like the way solid end links feel, some like the OEM links.
;)

I would go with a 20mm bar to start, just take your time to get used the the new "feel" before you go out and get crazy! :D

"aftermarket end links look puuuuurty.. and make lots of noise"

Kartboys make zero noise.

Going from 13mm to 18mm rear = huge difference. Add the endlinks and I don't see how anyone could not notice the additional improvement. It was night and day on my RS.