Originally posted by g_dejesus
It was a pretty painless process. The dealer didn't need to drive the car to test for pinging. 2 day turn around. And now no more pinging for me. :) Can't tell if power was affected as I had 2 people in the car with me.

g_dejesus,

Congrats! Where did you get yours done? I am looking for a "painless" place. THanks!

Hey guys, my STi has been reflashed! 6 days later and still havent heard any pinging. As far as effects, it seems like there's less of a sudden strong pull at 4k, but the car pulls a bit stronger all the way through instead. No complaints so far. I'm happy that Subaru came out with a fix. I asked my customer service rep what was changed in the reflash, but she said that we may never know..... mysterious. Hopefully we'll find out someday soon

orthojoe

Originally posted by darthdiggler


You can reflash your governor on october 7th :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Originally posted by wolverine


Congrats! Where did you get yours done? I am looking for a "painless" place. THanks!

Irvine Subaru. Unfortunately it's kind of far from you..

Did irvine subaru provide you with a free loaner?


otherwise it's kinda far for me too:confused:

Originally posted by darthdiggler


You can reflash your governor on october 7th :lol: lol we will see what going to happen.:D

does california have a reflash? has anybody got theres is cali yet?:D

Originally posted by ERIC DRAVEN
does california have a reflash? has anybody got theres is cali yet?:D

dejesus got his at Irvine Subaru. I am looking for someone in North Cali, around the Sac area...:D

Originally posted by STiBro


Myself, I bought the car specifically because it has all of 300 hp.




Move to a state where you can get sunoco 94 at the pump or fill up with a mixture of 100oct at the pump or run a mixture of toluene, as stated many times in this very thread.

You want 300hp? You run the required octane to give you the detonation protection that you need for 300hp. Its that simple.

Am I the only one that gives props to subaru for putting out an aggressive ecu in the usdm STi? Would you all be bitching MORE if it was the other way around? Yup!

Originally posted by RichQY
Did irvine subaru provide you with a free loaner?


otherwise it's kinda far for me too:confused:

Yup. I got a Neon that goes from 0 to 60 in 3 days. :lol:

Originally posted by mlambert

Am I the only one that gives props to subaru for putting out an aggressive ecu in the usdm STi? Would you all be bitching MORE if it was the other way around? Yup!

I agree fully with you with the exception of one thing. I like the fact they gave us an aggressive ECU, but honestly I think they could get 300+hp with a little different tuning ie more boost and a tad less aggressive timing.

Don't get me wrong I am not complaining but it seems that I knew of quite a few tuners/people who could get 300hp out of their 2.0L WRX with the same components that the STi has [shrug].

Originally posted by mlambert





Move to a state where you can get sunoco 94 at the pump or fill up with a mixture of 100oct at the pump or run a mixture of toluene, as stated many times in this very thread.

You want 300hp? You run the required octane to give you the detonation protection that you need for 300hp. Its that simple.


Wake up mlambert. Every merchant in the US is required advertise accurately. If they're selling a car in CA and stating that it has 300 hp, then it goes without saying that it has to run on the available fuel in CA. Unless there's a blurb and an asterick in their specs that state CA cars are making less than 300 hp, then it's misrepresenation.

Anyone around the Sacramento area doing/done a reflash? BTW, I am bringing my car into Maita for a reflash on 9/9, as I will be out of town for the next 2 weeks.

Every merchant in the US is required advertise accurately. If they're selling a car in CA and stating that it has 300 hp, then it goes without saying that it has to run on the available fuel in CA. Unless there's a blurb and an asterick in their specs that state CA cars are making less than 300 hp, then it's misrepresenation.

Look in the owners manual, it says 93 is required. There is no misrepresentation if 91 doesn't produce 300hp. ...my$0.02 anyway.

Christian

Originally posted by g_dejesus


Yup. I got a Neon that goes from 0 to 60 in 3 days. :lol: oh crap

i thought they at least will give you a WRX

Originally posted by Chin


Look in the owners manual, it says 93 is required. There is no misrepresentation if 91 doesn't produce 300hp. ...my$0.02 anyway.

Christian but you don't get the manual untill you buy the car.

on their advertisement, they dont' tell you it's 93 AKI required

plus in Cali we don't get that.. it's same as saying. this baby makes 400 hp.. only running 110 octane.

"caveat emptor" let the buyer beware.

Or my own favorite, "ignorance is not an excuse"

you're the consumer, it's your job to do your research before you buy.

Originally posted by RichQY
but you don't get the manual untill you buy the car.

on their advertisement, they dont' tell you it's 93 AKI required

plus in Cali we don't get that.. it's same as saying. this baby makes 400 hp.. only running 110 octane.

Exactly...I almost used the same example. Let's not get into some lame argument as to whether or not it should produce 300 or hp or not. Plain and simple, SOA PROMOTES and SELLS a car IN CALIFORNIA that makes 300 hp. Period.

Am I the only one here that doesn't want to do the reflash until the dyno results are out? Has anyone taken their reflashed STi to the dyno!?! If there is any dyno links, please let me know.

-wrxrallymt

Originally posted by wrxrallymt
Am I the only one here that doesn't want to do the reflash until the dyno results are out? Has anyone taken their reflashed STi to the dyno!?! If there is any dyno links, please let me know.

-wrxrallymt

No you are not. Mine pinged on 91. I'm now running a 94 mix and have no pinging. I'm happy to continue mixing up 94 if we learn that the reflash show negative results.

What if the car makes 300-300 on 91 after reflash? :huh: This will probably get you a bit more HP and torque on 94 :confused: Are you CA guys still gonna whine to get the 305-305 like other states then? :furious: OMG my car makes 299 :mad:

Originally posted by filbert
"caveat emptor" let the buyer beware.

Or my own favorite, "ignorance is not an excuse"

you're the consumer, it's your job to do your research before you buy.


its the seller's responsibility to back up waht they claim.

do you know this car would detonate before you buy it?

what if you are the FIRST STi owner in the US?

there is no way you can tell.

we are the consumer, it's our job to let them know they can't lie and get away with it

Originally posted by darthdiggler
What if the car makes 300-300 on 91 after reflash? :huh: This will probably get you a bit more HP and torque on 94 :confused: Are you CA guys still gonna whine to get the 305-305 like other states then? :furious: OMG my car makes 299 :mad: no one is whining.

just that 30 hp loose after reflash is ridiculous.

Originally posted by RichQY
no one is whining.

just that 30 hp loose after reflash is ridiculous.

There is no 30 hp lost. Everybody that got the reflash have said that they feel the same power. Can we wait for dyno comparos before using baseless random numbers.:furious:

Originally posted by filbert
"caveat emptor" let the buyer beware.

Or my own favorite, "ignorance is not an excuse"

you're the consumer, it's your job to do your research before you buy.

Dude, how lame are you? What a stupid comment. No flames intended. Are you in sales? If so, you sound like a crook.

Yeah your right, next time I go to buy a car, I'm going to take and dyno it during the test drive, thereby trashing an unbroken-in motor.

Originally posted by STiBro
Yeah your right, next time I go to buy a car, I'm going to take and dyno it during the test drive, thereby trashing an unbroken-in motor.
Alternatively, you could take a look in the owner's manual. Subaru will be more than happy to mail you one if you'd like, too.

Originally posted by RichQY
no one is whining.

just that 30 hp loose after reflash is ridiculous. Rich, you're out in left field. Aunt Bea is calling you for dinner. She wanted to know what you did with her 30 imaginary horsepower.

Originally posted by Cabal

Alternatively, you could take a look in the owner's manual. Subaru will be more than happy to mail you one if you'd like, too.

Tell me you're implying that if one reads the OM, it'll say to use 93 or 94 octane...go ahead, tell me that's why you said that.

I am pinging on 93. So, screw 93, like Subaru said...

Originally posted by Porter
Rich, you're out in left field. Aunt Bea is calling you for dinner. She wanted to know what you did with her 30 imaginary horsepower. i didn't come up w/ that number.

ppl are calling me whining for loosing some hp..

10 hp is nothing.. 30 will be unacceptable

Originally posted by RichQY
10 hp is nothing.. 30 will be unacceptable

Remember, Ford had a class-action lawsuit thrown at them (not to mention the horrible PR that went with it all) over 15 hp, I think it was, in the Cobra...!

The grounds for the suit, which ended up getting settled out of court IIRC, is that the horsepower difference between advertised and actual was tantamount to false advertising....

Zen

exactly thats why hyundai had to recliam their Tiburon's hp to 170 from 220.

Without any dyno graphs of before and after all this discussion about hp loss is moot. Lets wait till we see what, if any, the losses are. Speculation is going to get us no where.

Well i think it bull**** my car pings on 93 with some boosters but is ok on problend.I mean i ordered a car with a 300 hp add.I never have not seen one mag say there test car had det.I had a wrx and like someone said you can make 300hp with the 2.0 ej20.The STI has more cc and parts well maybe except for the pistons like are they forged or not thats a whole diff thing.I guess what im so pissed abought is if i do any thing abought it i have not coverage at a dealership oo yea mine sux anyway becpuse i had to drive 3 hours to get a car i had 1,000 doolers on since 3/10/03 to get 6/25/from a dealer in a diff state.I love Subaru the WRX sold my but why rush a car out that is not ready and why not say what it is from the get go.Im not being harsh i dont thing i mean im not saleing the car it is less trouble the my 71 camero with a pushrod 400 on some spray.And i do have a POS 82 Malibo wagon to drive.I gesss hell ill take a knife to this thing go all out take it apart and hotrod it.I know i went on on this but hell i did give 30,000 for a car that dets and is guessed on on ever prob it has.grrrr.I know i will get some flames on this but is that worse then det we caint hear oo thATS A DIFF THING ALL TOGETER SILENT DET THE ONLY KIND YOU SHOULD REALLY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUGHT.




:devil: :devil: :devil: bRaD

You do know there is a fix right? I'm not really sure what you were trying to say since I don't have the time or energy to decipher your grammar and spelling. :p

Originally posted by Darwood
You do know there is a fix right? I'm not really sure what you were trying to say since I don't have the time or energy to decipher your grammar and spelling. :p My grammers not great but i got a car just like yours and more cars more cars i build and tune.I guess the old saying is right if you want something done right do it your self.Have fun in your rent a car when you have your reflash.If your dealership will give you one since i know thats were you will be ever time you need to have anything done

Originally posted by ZenBoy
Remember, Ford had a class-action lawsuit thrown at them (not to mention the horrible PR that went with it all) over 15 hp, I think it was, in the Cobra...!

The grounds for the suit, which ended up getting settled out of court IIRC, is that the horsepower difference between advertised and actual was tantamount to false advertising....
Awesome, because a lawsuit is just the reward Subaru deserves for finally bringing the STi over here:rolleyes:

I'm sure that would go a long way towards ensuring that Subaru brings other performance models over here in the future... </sarcasm>

Originally posted by WickedSTI
Have fun in your rent a car when you have your reflash.If your dealership will give you one since i know thats were you will be ever time you need to have anything done

Are you implying that I have to take my car to the dealership since I am to inept to do my own maintenance and repairs? Interesting.

So you have the equipment to create new firmware for the STi as well as the equipment to flash the ECU? Cool. Can I borrow it?

Originally posted by ForceFed4
Awesome, because a lawsuit is just the reward Subaru deserves for finally bringing the STi over here:rolleyes:

I'm sure that would go a long way towards ensuring that Subaru brings other performance models over here in the future... </sarcasm>

It will help ensure that Subaru and the rest of manufacturers selling products in the US represent their products honestly and accurately. You sound like you don't mind being lied to.

And it's a good thing you're not president of SOA. At the board meeting, it seems like you'd say, "Oh shoot, they didn't let us sell them a car that's not acceptably tuned. Instead of tuning the cars properly, we'll teach them a lesson, yes loose millions of dollars of profit or SOA, and not give them an STi next year."

There's a very important reason for enforcing this stuff. It holds manufacturers to a high standard of integrity for selling products in the US.

Originally posted by STiBro

There's a very important reason for enforcing this stuff. It holds manufacturers to a high standard of integrity for selling products in the US.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

:cool:

Originally posted by STiBro
Instead of tuning the cars properly, we'll teach them a lesson, yes loose millions of dollars of profit or SOA, and not give them an STi next year."

There's a very important reason for enforcing this stuff. It holds manufacturers to a high standard of integrity for selling products in the US.

Well, that depends on how you defined "tuned properly". Personally, I don't consider "tuned for the lowest common denominator" = "tuned properly". And let's face it, crappy CA gas is the LCD here. Since 95% of the rest of the country can get 93 octane, why should we be punished because CA has made poor choices based on environmental activism?

It would be a completely different situation if the STi wasn't making advertised horsepower on regular premium gas, but if the numbers were generated assuming 93 octane (a reasonable choice given that premium IS 93 in most of the country), well, than those markets which do not have 93 shouldn't be terribly surprised if they make a bit less.

I've seen many cars with lower rated horsepower when the "CA market package" (or equivalent) is selected.

If it's simply an issue of Subaru publicizing the fact that the STi makes less HP on crappy 91, well, I can sympathize with that, Subaru should say 305 HP on 93 octane fuel, 29X on 91... But California still needs to get back into reality. You are not the center of this country, you made your own decisions that limited you to crappy gas, and I see no reason for the rest of the country to have to deal with watered-down products because of one state, sorry. The only reason CA gets away with it at all is because it is a large state. If RI decided to sell nothing higher than 87 octane, do you really think automakers would start tuning cars to 87 octane and nothing higher? Heck no, because one state, even a self-important, large one (this is not directed to any individual Californians here, just the general attitude the state seems to exude as a whole) should not be able to dictate what is "standard" in this country.

And I totally don't expect any Californian to agree with me, but let's face it, if CA had the same gas as the rest of the country, would this discussion even be happening?

But I thought that there were people pinging on 93 and 94 octane gas.

Unless I'm mistaken, the pinging issue and the "cars run on 91 make less HP" issues are separate entities.

There is a fix for the pinging, as the rest of this thread discusses, though many seem afraid that it will reduce the HP made, though no-one has reported as such.

Noone has busted out the dyno sheets to prove it doesn't either though.

If it were my STi, I know I'd sacrifice a couple horsepower to know my car wasn't detonating though.

But, it's fashionable these days to blast any move a carmaker makes. All these people screamed in to buy a brand new model (for this market), with a brand-new motor (for any market), and now that there's a couple teething problems some people are getting mad. Persoanlly, I'd like to know what they were thinking buying the first alocations of a first-year release car is they wanted absolute perfection.

The same thing happened with the WRX; if you check my register date and car, you can probably figure out that I have a 1st allocation WRX, and I (with all the other early WRX owners) went through similar issues with that car. Like now, some people then screamed bloody murder, and lawsuit this, lawsuit that... some of us chose to let Subaru actually FIX the problems, and enjoy the great car they finally brought to our market. Now, you might argue that all the people screaming are what motivated Subaru to do the fixes, and that I do not know. I can only say that my experiences with Subaru have been excellent, and if that is any metric, I'm sure that SOA is a company with enough integrity to come out with the fixes on their own. I was also extremely lucky to buy from a very good dealer, as some of the dealer expeiences people on this board have had are totally unacceptable, and if there's one area that I think Subaru should improve, it's on policing its own dealers.

Originally posted by Darwood
Without any dyno graphs of before and after all this discussion about hp loss is moot. Lets wait till we see what, if any, the losses are. Speculation is going to get us no where.


Couldnt have said it better myself!

Like I told everyone before, I am going to a AWD Dyno Day on 8/30. (in just 2 weeks) I will post before and after ECU reflash Dyno results on that very same evening. From 2 seperate cars, there will be some variations because of the time of year the cars were Dynoed will be 3 months apart and its hotter than the blazes of heck here now, but it should at least shed a little light.

I plan to scan the charts, set up a place to host them, and let everyone see them forthemselves. Hopefully it will bring some clarity to this "reflash" situation.

So everyone just chill, the data is forth coming!
:banana:

Originally posted by ForceFed4


Well, that depends on how you defined "tuned properly". Personally, I don't consider "tuned for the lowest common denominator" = "tuned properly". And let's face it, crappy CA gas is the LCD here. Since 95% of the rest of the country can get 93 octane, why should we be punished because CA has made poor choices based on environmental activism?


All I can say to this method of thinking is wrong, wrong, WRONG. In engineering you ALWAYS .. I repeat ALWAYS design for the 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to whatever you are designing things for. In the computer industry even giants like Microsoft kept backwards compatibility with 16-bit applications for almost 10 years after people started developing for 32-bit applications. I could sight many other engineering examples where they have to design to the 'lowest common denominator'. Don't you think bridge designers design bridges to that VERY UNLIKELY situation in which the bridge will be full of semi-trucks and cars? Or do you think the engineering company just says 'Eh ... we don't need to worry about that less than 1% chance scenerio happening' :rolleyes:.

And as far as this 95% of the country having 93+ octane gas I have to call BS. I know PERSONALLY (from road tripping) that the following states do NOT sell anything more than 91 octane except in a VERY few number of places (only in a select few places in major towns): CA, AZ, NM, TX, CO, UT. I also know that you can, commonly, only get 92 octane in NE, KS and IA. Just doing some rough math that is almost 20% of the states that I ALONE PERSONALLY have gone through don't have 93+ gas. And don't even get me started on the 'generally' poorer quality fuel levels along small interstate stops as compared to large cities. I put almost 35,000 miles on my last WRX with 2 different knock/detonation gauges and I can personally attest to this. You would be floored if you saw how detuned some of the maps (on my UTEC) I had to make to get rid of detonation when I went on road trips.

And if you want to hear somthing REALLY scary. On a road trip from Colorado Springs to Plano TX (where Cobb used to be) the Absolute best gas you could get for 500 miles of that trip was 90 octane :eek:.

Personally I live in Colorado Springs and luckily there is 1 gas station in town that sells 93 octane, but I am nervous as hell as to what happens when that gas station decides to stop selling it. Your stance is a very easy one to take when you have the luxory of going down to your local gas station and getting 93 or even [gasp] 94 octane... but you tend to look at things a bit differently when all you have access to is 91 octane.

What we really need is someone to dyno their car for a pre-flash baseline, get their car reflashed and then go back and have it dynoed on the same tank of gas etc... to see what differences there will be. OR better yet just have Subaru step up to the plate and be honest with us about what they changed.

Thank you davidm_sh, I agree with everything you wrote. And yes, I've been across the country several times, and have noticed max octanes of only 90 myself. Granted, in the middle of f'n' nowhere.

Let's also keep in mind that this ol' cheesy state represents 12.2% of the US population (taken from 2002 census numbers). I'm totally guessing, but I'd be willing to bet (a little) that the number of gas stations carrying 94 octane are less than the total number of gas stations in California. In other words, I know that Sunoco 94 is found in Massachusetts (population 6.4 million), and other Eastern states, but it's not all that wide spread.

ForceFed4, I go agree with your position on CA's low octane screwing things up for the rest of the country, but your "CA market package" seems like the ideal solution, all considered with the current situation. Conversely speaking, if some of the states weren't carrying 93 or 94 octane, this debate wouldn't be taking place for that reason either.

Nevertheless, I agree with the fact that CA hasn't considered the rest of the country's octane availability, and the negative repercussions on car makers (the number one reason, I'd think). Realistically, while CA is being cheesy on the octane, they're relying on the knowledge of automakers to compensate accordingly. It shouldn't screw up the rest of the country. It's the automaker's responsibility! They've been having to follow CA emissions standards (making cars solely designed to be sold in CA) for many years, they can surely add the octane factor into their tuning as well.

Bottom line, I very much wish CA would at least go back to the 92 octane that we've had available for at least the last 20 years (up until last year).

I'm a little confused. Why is it that Union 76 can sell 100 octane gas in barrels, but not have 93 or 94 octane available at the pump? What are the regulations, really? Does the government say, "You can sell any octane you want, but if it's over 91, it can't be dispensed at the pump"?

i think 76 sells it in the drums because they will be makin more money that way. i live in so cal and i have found a gas station that sells 110 unleaded gas AT THE PUMP. i was thinkin of trying this, hopefully this will stop the DET, but i cant afford 110 octane every time i need to fill up. and when is this reflash supposed to become available? i have taken my car to 2 subie dealers in my area (one being the place i bought it from) and they still have not heard anything about this and have no fix for it. they just tell me to run on like 94+ octane gas. how can i get word of the reflash to my dealer?

Originally posted by aLL-tRuBo [STi]
i think 76 sells it in the drums because they will be makin more money that way. i live in so cal and i have found a gas station that sells 110 unleaded gas AT THE PUMP. i was thinkin of trying this, hopefully this will stop the DET, but i cant afford 110 octane every time i need to fill up. and when is this reflash supposed to become available? i have taken my car to 2 subie dealers in my area (one being the place i bought it from) and they still have not heard anything about this and have no fix for it. they just tell me to run on like 94+ octane gas. how can i get word of the reflash to my dealer?

Hold the phone!

You dont want to run straight 110, its hard on your seals!

Also, make sure the 110 is UNLEADED, because if you get leaded 110, you can kiss your brand new O2's and CAT's goodbye!

Now if the 110 is UNLEADED, you can mix 2 or 3 gallons with the rest 91 and come out with 94 or higher octane.

I do exactly that, I mix Sunoco GT Plus 109 Unleaded, 3 Gallons with the rest 91. ON track days I mix 5 Gallons of 109 with the rest 91.

Your dealer needs to contact SOA, or you can, and give them the name of your dealers, and let SOA do the rest.

Good luck!

:devil:

I'm sure the reason that they don't commit a pump to 100 octane is because there's such a small market for it. Those pump needs to pump gas that a lot of people are going to use. But I'm speaking about 100 fuel. I'm trying to understand why the CA government has an objection to gas companies selling higher octane fuels.

Here's an interesting article on the story behind the 91 octane. Also describes what pinging is pretty well:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/editors/technobabble/0102scc_technobabble/

Originally posted by davidm_sh
All I can say to this method of thinking is wrong, wrong, WRONG. In engineering you ALWAYS .. I repeat ALWAYS design for the 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to whatever you are designing things for. In the computer industry even giants like Microsoft kept backwards compatibility with 16-bit applications for almost 10 years after people started developing for 32-bit applications. I could sight many other engineering examples where they have to design to the 'lowest common denominator'. Don't you think bridge designers design bridges to that VERY UNLIKELY situation in which the bridge will be full of semi-trucks and cars? Or do you think the engineering company just says 'Eh ... we don't need to worry about that less than 1% chance scenerio happening' :rolleyes:.
I'm not saying it isn't common practice, I'm saying that to produce the best performing "mini-supercar" Subaru should not tune to 91 octane gas and leave it at that. Since 93 or 94 octane gas is available in a significant area of the country (okay, 95% is probably a gross exaggeration, I admit), there's no reason Subaru shouldn't design the car to use that when it can to make more power.

Your example of MS is poor; how many problems/compromises were there with Win 9X simply because they tried to maintain that huge backwards compatibility? I really don't think that's a great example of how things are "supposed" to work. The bridge thing is a completely different situation, not applicable, as tuning for 93+ octane does not imply not tuning for 91 octane with today's multi-map ECUs. Complaining that the car does better/makes more power with 93 octane is like complaining that $15/lb filet tastes better than $2/lb chuck roast...

Now should Subaru have advertised the STi with HP humbers from octane 91 gas; maybe, maybe not. I still say it's fine for them to advertise 305 HP w/ 93 octane as long as they're upfront that it may make less on crappier gas. I guess they didn't do that, but I hardly think it's worth a lawsuit, considering everything else about the STi that is exactly what all us Subaru fans had hoped for (and more). We didn't get a watered-down "kiddie" version of the STi, we got the most powerful version in the world; squabbling over a handful of horsepower seems a little pale in comparison to that. Even on 91 it bet it makes more HP than the overseas versions.

Hell, I would kill for the very car a significant people are on here bitching and moaning about, but I can't justify the debt when I have a perfectly good WRX, so maybe that's coloring how I see all the guys complaining, but still...

And STiBro: It looks like we probably have a fairly similar outlook on the situation. I understand that by being in CA, you're personally affected by the gas issue, and I guess I'd be upset about it too if it were my car.

Originally posted by ForceFed4
Unless I'm mistaken, the pinging issue and the "cars run on 91 make less HP" issues are separate entities.

issue is will reflash cause a major HP loss.
not likely.. but if so.. we need to know.

if it's too dramatic.. it need to be dealt with


this is my concern. not sure about anything else

290 on 91 is fine by me. not hyundaiish 220--->170

If I may add, most turbo car's hp figures are advertised on what they make on 93 octane - the Evo also is advertised that way. It's 271hp figures are on 93, and it makes less on 91 too. I'm sure all of the premium-gas-only vehicles in the U.S. are that way. And given that different gas station's gas is better or worse, even if the rating is the same, there's no way to totally guarantee any hp figure, no matter the area. Manufacturers do what they can.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

After reading through 11 pages of thread, I can't help but still feel confused.

Some people experience no det at all.
Some people experience no det with 93 octane
Some people experience det with 93 octane
Some people experience det with 91 octane

I don't recall if anyone has NO det with 91 ???

For those of you that are mixing toulene/race fuel----are any of you guys still getting any det issues ???

Since I'm only at 450 miles, I haven't really gotten a chance to get on it that much. But the few times I did approach 4k.....not what I wanted to hear :(

I guess it could suck to live here in CA, but then when I read that people are experiencing the same thing on 93 octane.....I just think it's nice to live 30min from the beach and 30min from the mountains.:banana:

It's hard for me to imagine that there may be some STi's out there that do not experience anything at all. This issue seems VERY widespread regardless of what gas you have access to.

I guess we will all wait and see the dyno plot from "Porter" and see what's doing.

Bimmerod
:cool:

P.S.- Porter < Try not to fudge the numbers on those dyno plots...hehe
:devil:

ok heres my boring grunts again..

just took the car out.

was 11 PM pacific time 70 degrees outside.. feels really breezy.

took the car to a road that just got paved ..

it was so smooth and quiet i can hear my bypass vavle dumping noise.. i got so excited cuz i thought i d never hear it w/o taking off the resonator. as i did more of that..

55-60 mph 5 th gear? i heard some tapping noise.. same volume as the Psh psh which was kinda hard to pick up unless you pay good deal of attention. very distinct.. i was so sure it wasn't road noise cuz that road was so damn smooth...

i replicated the tapping noise countless times... they all happened around 3000 rpm.. As soon as i let off throttle, they disappeared..


so....

no more <3500 rpm break ins.. i am bringing it in ASAP for Reflash.

Running Chevron 91 btw. paid god damn 2.05 per gallon for it..

Rich is about to be converted... he's going to the "reflash dark side"... :lol:

I think you'll like the results Rich.

Originally posted by davidm_sh


All I can say to this method of thinking is wrong, wrong, WRONG. In engineering you ALWAYS .. I repeat ALWAYS design for the 'lowest common denominator' when it comes to whatever you are designing things for. In the computer industry even giants like Microsoft kept backwards compatibility with 16-bit applications for almost 10 years after people started developing for 32-bit applications. I could sight many other engineering examples where they have to design to the 'lowest common denominator'. Don't you think bridge designers design bridges to that VERY UNLIKELY situation in which the bridge will be full of semi-trucks and cars? Or do you think the engineering company just says 'Eh ... we don't need to worry about that less than 1% chance scenerio happening' :rolleyes:.

The car still runs on 91...it just doesn't provide maximum horsepower and pings a little, which hasn't even been proven to be damaging. And, "in engineering" you don't always design for the "lowest common denominator." You do a risk/cost analysis that tells you when to stop OVERengineering your product. If Subaru doesn't think that this pinging is damaging the motors enough that they will need to replace a significant number under warranty, they're not going to advertise this thing as a recall, because the cost of fixing the problem is more than the cost of letting the problem happen.

I agree that it would be much better for the car not to ping at all all the way down to 87 octane. Hopefully the new ECU map will take care of this. I haven't had the problem yet (2000 miles), but I would reflash my ECU today, if I didn't have to demonstrate the problem to the dealer first.

In the meantime...an unpopular suggestion. I'd love to see car makers go back to selling CA cars and US cars. That way, US cars can get the full performance, and CA gets to deal with their own problems, rather than bring the entire country down to their level. Is there a good reason why 93+ isn't available in CA?

Originally posted by ForceFed4
I still say it's fine for them to advertise 305 HP w/ 93 octane as long as they're upfront that it may make less on crappier gas. I guess they didn't do that, but I hardly think it's worth a lawsuit, considering everything else about the STi that is exactly what all us Subaru fans had hoped for (and more). We didn't get a watered-down "kiddie" version of the STi, we got the most powerful version in the world; squabbling over a handful of horsepower seems a little pale in comparison to that. Even on 91 it bet it makes more HP than the overseas versions.


I COMPLETELY agree. I wouldn't mind one bit if the car made 320hp on 93/94 octane... BUT I think it should make the advertised 300hp/300tq on 91 octane as a baseline number, but you are correct in that we should be happy we finally got a STi that is more powerful than what the rest of the world gets.

Originally posted by davidm_sh


I COMPLETELY agree. I wouldn't mind one bit if the car made 320hp on 93/94 octane... BUT I think it should make the advertised 300hp/300tq on 91 octane as a baseline number, but you are correct in that we should be happy we finally got a STi that is more powerful than what the rest of the world gets.

why stop at 91? I'm sure there are some gas stations out there that only have 87. or 86. you get the point, I'm sure.

Just in case, the point is: the car makes 300hp if you provide the proper fuel. it makes less on lesser fuel. This is just like every other car on the planet.

The only issue here is whether or not the car is being damaged on the lower octane fuel.

Originally posted by davidm_sh


I COMPLETELY agree. I wouldn't mind one bit if the car made 320hp on 93/94 octane... BUT I think it should make the advertised 300hp/300tq on 91 octane as a baseline number, but you are correct in that we should be happy we finally got a STi that is more powerful than what the rest of the world gets.

Well it would be great if the car did make 320hp on 94 octane because that's the only gas i've filled my car up with. But there's a slight problem, it's confirmed (from a reputable tuner, dealership will be next!) that my STi pings from 2500-4000rpm on Sunoco Ultra 94 octane gasoline. I was so sure and kind of in denial that my STi wasn't/wouldn't ping with 94 but lo and behold, it does. People from Long Island or East Coast that can fill up with 94, don't be so confident that it will not ping. I was and it took me to long to realize that it really does. ECU reflash, here i come.

Oh, and the det happens anywhere between 50-100% throttle application applied. Not to thrilled to say the least. I just threw a TXS stealthback exhaust on too:furious:

Originally posted by Porter
Rich is about to be converted... he's going to the "reflash dark side"... :lol:

I think you'll like the results Rich. i was destined for the reflash.. never thought i needed it this early.

Originally posted by STiBro


Dude, how lame are you? What a stupid comment. No flames intended. Are you in sales? If so, you sound like a crook.

Yeah your right, next time I go to buy a car, I'm going to take and dyno it during the test drive, thereby trashing an unbroken-in motor.

heh, i'd actually make a poor salesman b/c i'm TOO honest.

So I sound like i'm in sales and a crook... it's funny that you put those together b/c we all have impressions that most salesmen lie to us, or at least don't tell us the whole truth. And isn't that the point of "caveat emptor?" Let's face it big companies and salesmen make mistakes and sometimes just plain lie to us. I don't think it's right and I don't support it, but unfortunately, that's how it is, and we, the consumer have to deal with it.

Yes, I believe SOA should have been more straight forward to consumers (especially in CA) about the STi requiring 93 octane, or better yet, they should have engineered the car to only require 91. But they didn't. We can blame them all we want, but in the end, we're the ones who bought it. So the question is this, if you knew everything you knew today, would you have still bought the car? Unfortunately, sometimes being the first to have the latest and greatest comes with it's own problems... Luckily we have a forum like this where we can do our research and decide whether we want to give our money to subaru or not.

So, why hasn't anyone posted the dyno results yet? Or any official explanation of the flash from SoA? Or at least an official word about if the det is hazzardous to our engines?

I love the STi, best car I EVER owned since 1974. And I am not complaining about SoA, nor interested in any lawsuit. For if THIS is how USA folks react, THINK ON THIS GUYS! You think Sube, Mitsu, or Nissan (for those wishing for the Skyline to ever come here!!!) will ever want to take a chance again to give us the better car? DUH! HECK NO! So lighten up, or we WILL loose out later. All I say though, is that it would be better that they inform us of what the changes are so we can make the decision to flash or not. But I am not about top put the hand that fed me (the best car ever) into the fire.

Porter, can I take my car to any Subaru dealership, or do I need to take it to the dealership where I purchased my car to get the reflash done? Thanks.

Originally posted by imminence
Porter, can I take my car to any Subaru dealership, or do I need to take it to the dealership where I purchased my car to get the reflash done? Thanks.
Any dealership can process your vehicle for the reflash, but not all dealers are up to speed on the process required to submit the claim and the ECM to Subaru. If your dealer isn't clear on what's involved, have them contact their Subaru rep for more information, or they're welcome to call me here at the dealer. My direct line is 678-584-7252. Good luck!

Originally posted by Porter

Any dealership can process your vehicle for the reflash, but not all dealers are up to speed on the process required to submit the claim and the ECM to Subaru. If your dealer isn't clear on what's involved, have them contact their Subaru rep for more information, or they're welcome to call me here at the dealer. My direct line is 678-584-7252. Good luck!

Porter, you're "da man!" I wish every dealership were like yours!

Does the ECU record detonation events, and if so can the dealer access this data with their equipment? I haven't heard any detonation yet, but that doesnt mean it's not occuring.

Let me take a guess here. Most of us are going to get the reflash whether or not we want it. There is probably 110 % chance that the reflash is already installed on all allocations since it became available and all future deliveries. Maybe somebody, somewhere can take an early car and a late car and make some sort of comparison. I do know this, all the early cars i know appear to be going slower with time. Also some threads are showing that det is appearing after some miles are put on after an inital period of det free peformance. Include me in this group. In the end only a few hundred cars out of the thousands that will be built will have the original flash. As for me i feel that i have no choice but to get with the program. :( Gas

Originally posted by gasguzzler259
I do know this, all the early cars i know appear to be going slower with time. Also some threads are showing that det is appearing after some miles are put on after an inital period of det free peformance. Include me in this group.

Sorry to hear that about your car! I've been reading the posts "filtered" through my experience, and it sounds to me like a number of people have been sharing my experience - that there is some detonation, along with a temporary power drop after the ECU compensates, if we run under 93 octane.

Now, take this FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc., since this is my first turbo car and I've luckily managed to avoid detonation in my years of working with Chevy V-8s. Thus, detonation could give me the wedgie of my life and I wouldn't necessarily recognize it. Based on what I think I've experienced, though, I think my car is fine as long as I run 93+ octane.

BTW, my car was in the second (AFAIK) allocation, manufactured in May.

Zen:cool:

Originally posted by Porter

Any dealership can process your vehicle for the reflash, but not all dealers are up to speed on the process required to submit the claim and the ECM to Subaru. If your dealer isn't clear on what's involved, have them contact their Subaru rep for more information, or they're welcome to call me here at the dealer. My direct line is 678-584-7252. Good luck!

Porter, you are definitely the man.

Originally posted by ZenBoy

BTW, my car was in the second (AFAIK) allocation, manufactured in May.

Zen:cool:

How does one determine which allocation it is?

Does this reflash help drivers/cars in california?

Or do the people in california require a more agressive solution.

Originally posted by STiBro


How does one determine which allocation it is?

Just ballparking it - the first shipments started arriving locally around the third week of May, and AFAIK the second shipments were arriving around July 4th. Maybe there was one more in there ... who knows?

Zen:rolleyes:

so how do i go about getting my dealer the info on the reflash??i wanna get this done as soon as possible because i wanna be able to drive how i want without hearing the "bb's in the can." any info would be greatly appreciated! thanks, mark

Well, Irvine Subaru just sent my ECU in to New Jersey. No hassles, nothing. So hope to get my car back by Thursday. But I ALSO hope that there is no loss in power :(

Originally posted by ZenBoy


Just ballparking it - the first shipments started arriving locally around the third week of May, and AFAIK the second shipments were arriving around July 4th. Maybe there was one more in there ... who knows?

Zen:rolleyes:

Hmmm...My car was delivered to the dealer June 24th (saw it on the truck heading to the dealer on the freeway as I drove to work that day...kind of cool). So I wonder if it's first allocation or second. P.S. Pinging on 91, no pinging on 94.

Anyone here has a dyno chart of a stock car? I'm curious to see what the spike is at 4,000rpm that you mentioned

Originally posted by PocketEmpty
Anyone here has a dyno chart of a stock car? I'm curious to see what the spike is at 4,000rpm that you mentioned

Goto turboxs.com and read about the 'STi 101 article'.

Originally posted by z3coupe
Well, Irvine Subaru just sent my ECU in to New Jersey. No hassles, nothing. So hope to get my car back by Thursday. But I ALSO hope that there is no loss in power :(

please update after you get it back

and if i may ask. what RPM are you guys knocking on?

and what do you "hear"

i just wanna double check if i am actually pinging rather than some piston noise.

me=paranoid:huh:

Originally posted by z3coupe
Well, Irvine Subaru just sent my ECU in to New Jersey. No hassles, nothing. So hope to get my car back by Thursday. But I ALSO hope that there is no loss in power :(

yeah i called irvine as well...im bringing mine in on tuesday the 26th...and they say that i get a rental. i should have my car back by thursday, so im relieved. :D :banana:

I was getting ping around 4000 rpm, and during various loads.

Will report on how the car feels when I get it back. But I can tell you this! I used to think my old 02 WRX was fast. But now, I keep having to check if the parking brake is on! And that is why I did not need a loaner - am driving the old car for a bit yet. UGH! :)

I'm getting pinging as low as 2300 rpm up to 4000rpm. Anyone else experiencing pinging this low?

Originally posted by gills
I'm getting pinging as low as 2300 rpm up to 4000rpm. Anyone else experiencing pinging this low? i do,

very audible in the high 2000 range.. lower if in 6th gear.

seem to go away at 3400 rpm, i ve never reved above 4K.

various load, various throttle position, various fuel..

same sound always come up.

Originally posted by Porter


I think you'll like the results Rich.


hmmmm, it was 2 weeks yesterday that i got my ecu back from SOA

porter, am i supposed to be running 93 octane on the reflashed ecu? 'cause the ping is back with a vengance. seems like with my driving characteristics, 2 weeks is the "learn" time on the ecu.

oh well, back to the dealer...

crap.

None of the folks who have had the reflash here have reported a reoccurrence of ping. I'm not sure what to tell you.

Have you dyno'd the car? A tuner should be able to tell you exactly what's going on.

[edit] And yes, you ARE supposed to be using 93 or better octane even after the reflash.

I just got mine back from the dealer and so far so good (fingers crossed). I drove it today in 90+ heat with the ac on and no pinging. It would always ping around 4000 in that situation. I dropped it off on monday and got it back today. Pretty speedy. I cannot notice any power loss if there is any. The real test will be a nice cool humid evening to see how it feels in optiamal conditions. My car feels super strong when it is cool out. If yours pings get it reflashed.

Originally posted by Porter
None of the folks who have had the reflash here have reported a reoccurrence of ping. I'm not sure what to tell you.

Have you dyno'd the car? A tuner should be able to tell you exactly what's going on.

[edit] And yes, you ARE supposed to be using 93 or better octane even after the reflash.

yuda' man -

not particularly happy to be the first to have to report it, and may not have to - i've been running 91 octane.

really appreciate your input as the local service rep did not know if 93 was still required or not.

back to roll my own gas.

planning on dynoing the vehicle on the 30th (curious about the reflash) - there is a thread in the southwest forum area. hope they have gas up there by then.

soooo, i reckon the ecu has till then to relearn on the 93/94 homegrown. it took about 2 weeks before it started detonating on the 93/94 stuff last time.

again, thank you for the timely information.

I just got my car back tonight from Irvine Subaru. They were AWESOME in getting the car back to me with minimal downtime.

Not having a dyno in my backyard, I can only say that it does not feel any different in power, yet NO PINGING! Of course, though, I had been driving my old WRX while waiting, and anything about the STi feels better. NO WONDER WHY most dealers won't give test drives in them! Cause a regular WRX pales in comparison.

Originally posted by Porter
None of the folks who have had the reflash here have reported a reoccurrence of ping. I'm not sure what to tell you.

Have you dyno'd the car? A tuner should be able to tell you exactly what's going on.

[edit] And yes, you ARE supposed to be using 93 or better octane even after the reflash.
well, i dont have the means to run 93 octane, living in cali i have 91. if you know of a substitutable octane booster or what not to get me to 93, then ill do it.
i just have a question...will subaru not do the reflash if i have an aftermarket intake on the car??about a week ago i put in my HKS megaflow on and since i set up my appt to get my reflash done, i wanna get it done without and headache. so will i beable to get this done with the intake in there or should i replace it with the original?

Originally posted by aLL-tRuBo [STi]

well, i dont have the means to run 93 octane, living in cali i have 91. if you know of a substitutable octane booster or what not to get me to 93, then ill do it.
i just have a question...will subaru not do the reflash if i have an aftermarket intake on the car??about a week ago i put in my HKS megaflow on and since i set up my appt to get my reflash done, i wanna get it done without and headache. so will i beable to get this done with the intake in there or should i replace it with the original?

As long as your dealer is cool with modifications and Subaru doesn't send a rep down to check the car out, you should be ok.

Tom

I'm thinking about trading my 03 WRX on an 04 STi that just arrived at the dealer yesterday. Left a deposit and have until Monday to decide for sure. Are the most recently manufactured STi's pinging?

VIN is JF1GD70624L513809.

Anybody recently buy an STi that didn't need the reflash? Does anyone know if the newer ones got the reflash in Japan?

Thanks!

Chard, trust me - just gt the STi!!!!!!! My WRX was not stock (though never touched the engine or boost due to SCCA rules) and many who drove or rode in it thought it was fast. Well, after having the STi only for a FEW DAYS, then having to drive my old one while it got the reflash . . . . . . I kept looking at the parking brake thinking I had left it on! So if a reflash is all that is holding you back, DUH! Just get it done and don't worry. You will enjoy the STi the rest of the time. Huge grins while driving included.

Originally posted by gills


As long as your dealer is cool with modifications and Subaru doesn't send a rep down to check the car out, you should be ok.

Tom

well i really dont want to take that chance...so ill put the stock intake back on. and for anyone else who brought their car to irvine subaru, did you have any mods or anything??thats where im taking mine. and if i can save myself the trouble of switching the intake than i will. :D

Mine is stock, and I will be keeping it that way this time (SCCA reason LOL).

I just got mine last week and haven't had a problem with pinging at all. Feels like 300hp to my butt dyno. 950 miles so far.
Used Sunoco 94, Mobil 93, Shell 93 - It's all good :p


GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by zavigm
I just got mine last week and haven't had a problem with pinging at all. Feels like 300hp to my butt dyno. 950 miles so far.
Used Sunoco 94, Mobil 93, Shell 93 - It's all good :p


GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!


Where in DE are you?

I grew up there and am making a trip back for Pumkin Chunkin in Nov.

Northern Delaware - Greenville.

Just moved here a couple years ago from Cali.

Connecticut originally.

Saw that Pumpkin Chunkin on Discovery channel...i've gotta check it out!

launch a pumpkin almost a mile out of a cannon!? crazy stuff.
z

Originally posted by zavigm
Northern Delaware - Greenville.

Just moved here a couple years ago from Cali.

Connecticut originally.

Saw that Pumpkin Chunkin on Discovery channel...i've gotta check it out!

launch a pumpkin almost a mile out of a cannon!? crazy stuff.
z

Sweet!!!!!

My family lives in Dover, I fly in Sat night Nov 1st, going to the finals on Sun Nov 2nd.

Will be in DE for the week. If you want to get up, PM me, I have a lot of automotive connections there still.

I got my car back today (after vacation) and no pinging, and it feels fine so far.

Glenn

Originally posted by aLL-tRuBo [STi]


well i really dont want to take that chance...so ill put the stock intake back on. and for anyone else who brought their car to irvine subaru, did you have any mods or anything??thats where im taking mine. and if i can save myself the trouble of switching the intake than i will. :D


You will not have any issues with Irvine Subaru. They are very kewl about mods. My 02 had intake, exhaust, IC hoses when it got repaired for the clutch shudder prob. Just talk to Albert, he'll take care of ya.

Bimmerod
:cool:

Hi guys,
You may or may not be interested in what I have to say but it may make some sense to you.
We have had quite alot to do with the STi computer in the *** spec 2.0lt. We have mapped it and logged all the timing for the cam control and ignition advance. I can't say for sure how the US spec works but an guessing it to be similar in operation.
Here we go.

The computer in the car gathers a lot of information from various source's ie: air temp before turbo, Air speed and volume, engine temp, manifold air pressure, throttle position, cam positon, Oxygen sensor and from what i can see on the motor we have just got our hands on Exhaust temp. All of this is feed into the computer at speeds that can be above 200 hertz ( 200 times a second). Our computer has a base timeing table of lets say 16 degrees of ignition at 5000 rpm with 4 degress of advance cam timing and 50 percent of fuel injector pulse. The computer will take into account air temp, boost,engine temp and even battery volts and if all is within parameters, will start to increase timing and fuel. From the base timing our ignition curve can go from 16 degress at 5000rpm to 32 degress at 5000rpm. If you had told me this 1 year ago I would have laughed and said see you tomorrow for that new engine rebuild. We can't copy these figures with Motec as the engine would destroy its self in the first 10 minutes of running, but the Sti computer does because it changes so quick from map to map compensating constantly.

This is why some of you experience a slight loss of power sometimes,and possible Detanation as the computer trys to get to its max timming . It dose have a limit and will sit most the time with no problems, if you can notice the next time it happens you can probably pick why it has. You may have just loaded the engine up a small hill or even had a sudden rise in air temp. The biggest reason could be that tank of fuel you just put in the car. We run 98 octain pump fuel here and they just love it.

I hope this makes some sense I didn't want to get to involved in your thread just thought it might take some heat of Porter.

Dan
Protecnica Racing

Good info, thanks Dan!

All Turbo ... do a Search for (114 octane) Toluene to find out about this relatively inexpensive octane booster ... which is already a major component of pump gas (and over priced Octane Boosters)

here is one Link:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268539&highlight=Octane+Booster

i am running this tank out
then it's pure 100 ocatne time!!

i just wanna see if this baby will whine w/ the 100 octane!

currently she s pinging on 93


but damn.. it s gonna cost me 75 $ for that tank.

Originally posted by Bimmerod



You will not have any issues with Irvine Subaru. They are very kewl about mods. My 02 had intake, exhaust, IC hoses when it got repaired for the clutch shudder prob. Just talk to Albert, he'll take care of ya.

Bimmerod
:cool:

yeah thas who i talked too....but i went ahead and took the intake off anyway. i should be gettin back my car tomorrow..so im waiting to see how it runs after. :D

Just one more note about octane boosters.......

Be very carefull what you use as we have found it lowers octane levels in the fuel we run ( Shell Optimax ). It would pay to do some research. Even speak to a chemist with the oil company. It might sound like to much work but it will pay off in the long run. This is the data sheet link below of the fuel we run. I am not sure of you emissions over there and what is available. But it may give you some idea. Your motors have been mapped for the usdm so they should run well on your major brand oil companies high octane fuel.

http://www.shellau.com/oneshell/au/optimax/pdfs/optimax_pds.pdf

Dan

Hey guys. Just got my car back yesterday :banana: after a reflash. Well, at first I didn't hear any thing, so I was happy. But then about 20 minutes later, it did it again. Not as loud as it used to, but it pinged. Any one else with reflash that still pings? I don't know how long it take for the computer to re-learn, but I'll give it a go for next few days to see what's gona happen. I'm running 91 in CA. I hate the sound of that ping and like to keep my car stock, but may be there is some mod out there that will fix this. Any suggestions?

The dealer I go to doesn't like mods. They got print outs all over that say any mod even K&N will void your warranty. Which is total crap, it wont void it unless it was the cause. So any way, any help will be appreciated

As for power loss after reflash, I don't think it lost any. It feels same as before.

Protecnica ... thanks for that info ...

Can you tell us approx. how much toluene (%) is used in typical high octane pump gasoline ...

Your 98 octane is equal to about 94 octane U.S. ... correct?

I thought to ask this...

has anyone talked to dealers in illinois that know about the pinging problem, and more importantly know about the ECM reflash?

I've been having a hard time convincing them that such a thing exists and even to call Porter about it...*sigh*

Ever pinging,
josh.

I had my reflash about a week ago. The power feels the same, but after filling the tank at Costco, I noticed very slight pinging. I don't know if it's just coincidence that I'd just filled the tank when it started or not. Anyway, on my invoice from the reflash it states that the car is designed to run on 93 octane, and since Washington state has only 92, the ECU must learn to use the lower octane. It said that pinging may not cease for up to 4000 miles. I noticed the pinging about three or four times, but have not heard it in the last few days at all. I called the dealer and asked if I should mix the 92 octane gas with 101 trick gas that a few stations have locally ($5.49/gallon), but they said that this would not be a good idea since the ECU will learn to use the better fuel, and will ping again if I went back to straight 92.

Just wanted to share my experience.

i was strongly advised not to use Costco gas.

Hi makofoto,

We have had a lot of publisity over toluene here. Some companies here use 10%, but what we use has 0 % content of toluene. I am not sure about our 98 being the same as your 94 will have to do some research into that one. Can you get any data sheets off your oil companies? That should tell you the content. If not you can get the fuel you use tested. It only cost us about $40 Au to get ours tested here.

Dan

Porter, help me out here because I must be missing something. My car will ping hard on our Cali 91 kerosene and water mix know as gasoline. So I mix 100 octane race fuel 50/50 when driving on the track.

That works good, but now the smart alec ECU thinks it will get that $$$ fuel all the time, so it pings with a vengence for a couple of tanks when only the 91 is used. I prefer a non-pinging street car. Therefore I have been waiting for some others experience with the so called reflash to see what happens. Hoping to flash in the future. Metaphorically speaking.

So now some have reflashed, and it looks like 93 is still required and after awhile, the ECU reads aggressive driving (I confess) habits and notches up the timing. Ping Ping. A replay from the original pre-flash ECU.

So what is our point here? I don't think we are going to see 93 octane in California unless it is home made. Please correct me if I have it wrong and there is a ping cure. Thanks.

Mike McBride

man, this is ridiculous, 15+ pages and only about 1 page that talks about feedback from the actual reflash. This is NOT an issue about what if I run higher octane fuel, will the ping go away. This is a production car meant for daily usage. Subaru's engineer made a mistake and they will have to fix it. Sure i may just be a slight ping but none the less it will eventually worry experienced buyers and SOA will have to take care of them. Why do I say that Subaru made a mistake.... check out Vishnu's post in the Factory Force Indution section, besides getting rid of the pinging completely on 91 octane, he gained power and TORQUE on that specific are, not to mention more power overall. That just goes to show that SOA re-flash should be able to fix the ping without diminishing power. Assuming they did it correctly.

On another note, when a manufacturer states that the car will ping ocasionally they actually mean for when u get a bad tank of gas or under considerably high temp. but not everytime you go through the 4k-5k rpm range. That's just plain wrong.
In brief, if ur car pings on 91 just reflash it with SOA's fix. I mean.. come on... is a street car, there should be no need for 100+ octane for daily driving stuff unless the ocassion demands it.

If you plan to upgrade you STi, like me, just wait until ECUtek comes out and when doing the tuning the ping will go away with it. Remember that a professional tuner such as Shiv will never put your engine at risk. I completely trust him with my car.

My 3 cents.

Originally posted by zacek
man, this is ridiculous, 15+ pages and only about 1 page that talks about feedback from the actual reflash. This is NOT an issue about what if I run higher octane fuel, will the ping go away. This is a production car meant for daily usage. Subaru's engineer made a mistake and they will have to fix it. Sure i may just be a slight ping but none the less it will eventually worry experienced buyers and SOA will have to take care of them. Why do I say that Subaru made a mistake.... check out Vishnu's post in the Factory Force Indution section, besides getting rid of the pinging completely on 91 octane, he gained power and TORQUE on that specific are, not to mention more power overall. That just goes to show that SOA re-flash should be able to fix the ping without diminishing power. Assuming they did it correctly.

On another note, when a manufacturer states that the car will ping ocasionally they actually mean for when u get a bad tank of gas or under considerably high temp. but not everytime you go through the 4k-5k rpm range. That's just plain wrong.
In brief, if ur car pings on 91 just reflash it with SOA's fix. I mean.. come on... is a street car, there should be no need for 100+ octane for daily driving stuff unless the ocassion demands it.

If you plan to upgrade you STi, like me, just wait until ECUtek comes out and when doing the tuning the ping will go away with it. Remember that a professional tuner such as Shiv will never put your engine at risk. I completely trust him with my car.

My 3 cents.

VERY well put.

All I can tell you is that all of the folks who have had their STi reflashed here seem satisfied with the results.

I can't really give you any good information about what's proper for a California car. Obviously there is a huge difference between 91 and 94 octane, and though the reflash fixes the problem for the rest of the country, there's no guarantee that it will cure your issue 100% if you live in California. Certainly it would improve the situation.

It seems like a no-brainer to me, I'm not sure why so many people continue to have anxiety attacks over this. The reflash doesn't affect power in any way that I or my customers have been able to determine from the driver's seat, and it improves the margin of safety even on 91 octane.


[subject change]
Personally, I think it's great that at least one manufacturer is stepping up and tuning for the gas that the majority of Americans are using, instead of detuning their vehicle severely nationwide to comply with the whims of the freaks who run CARB and the State of California. As far as I can tell, the bureaucrats at CARB are on a mission to eliminate performance vehicles from the roads of California (and the nation, or so they think) by continually reducing the availability of decent gasoline. The argument about percentages of gasoline and overall demand for premium reducing the octane available seems like a load of hogwash to me. If that were the case, the available octane would be lower in all major metropolitan areas in the country, and that's simply not the case. The STATE of California is different, and I may be completely ignorant of the realities of the situation, but I'm not aware of any rational reason why gasoline companies would change their formulation except as a result of regulation. Think about it... two gas stations a mile apart, one's in California and the other is in a neighboring state, and the fuel octane available is dramatically different. It's a regulatory problem, and the conservatives in California are as much to blame as liberals. Big oil makes big money from selling low octane fuel as "premium", and they can all hold hands with Greenpeace while they stuff millions in their retirement accounts.

That's all I got. My bitch session is over... :D :D

Hey Porter,

I have a quick question for you man. I'm picking up a 06/03 STi tomorrow and they inform me that they are aware of the reflash, but this car did not need it. Does that sound legit? Any idea what manuf date started shipping with the updated code?

Thanks for all the information, this thread has really erased my concerns over this issue!

-st

Originally posted by singletrack
Hey Porter,

I have a quick question for you man. I'm picking up a 06/03 STi tomorrow and they inform me that they are aware of the reflash, but this car did not need it. Does that sound legit? Any idea what manuf date started shipping with the updated code?

Thanks for all the information, this thread has really erased my concerns over this issue!

-st
Sorry, I have no clue which build dates have a changeover, or even if there is a changeover. Time will tell.

It's only a WRX ... but basically I have a Vishnu Stg. 1 tune with a 94 Octane high boost (17 PSI, stock turbo) EcuTek Shiv Dyno remap (289 crank hp) ... I can run 91 octane without any problem ... have never heard a knock ... it just gets better with 94 octane ...

Shiv is definitely the MAN!

there will be some dyno plots posted here i believe. they are from this morning's dyno sessions - compares a stock sti to a SOA reflashed sti - there _is_ a significant change.

no pinging on the reflash yet (after switching to 93/94 oct - thanks again porter). i've ran 3 tanks of gas through it.

a major motivator in getting the reflash was my unfounded belief that i could run readily avaialble pump gas from here in AZ.

based on the dyno runs from this morning and the fact that i need to run 93/94+ octane anyway... i would not have done the reflash. rather, wait for an aftermarket product that maintains sti advertised HP/TQ #s without pinging consistently. seems bass ackwards to me, going to the aftermarket to maintain a manufacturers advertised HP/TQ without grenading your motor.

is it impossible to map this stock motor to ~245WHP on 91 octane? i would gladly pay for that - even if it voided my factory warranty.

mixing race gas adds up to $$ very quickly - in my case like $100 a month - aftermarket reflash will prolly cost ~$500?

so my sti has less testicular fortitude now. nuetered? :)

it is still way better than my old s2000 for mechanical soundness, and i thoroughly enjoy the car.

but to be a fair and balanced (sic) consumer - i know that 3 strikes for the same valid complaint within the warranty period and you are out.

strictly _my_ opinion about _my_ car based on how _i_ drive and where _i_ live - _your_ mileage may vary.

'dios,

-mike

Originally posted by Porter
All I can tell you is that all of the folks who have had their STi reflashed here seem satisfied with the results.

I can't really give you any good information about what's proper for a California car. Obviously there is a huge difference between 91 and 94 octane, and though the reflash fixes the problem for the rest of the country, there's no guarantee that it will cure your issue 100% if you live in California. Certainly it would improve the situation.

It seems like a no-brainer to me, I'm not sure why so many people continue to have anxiety attacks over this. The reflash doesn't affect power in any way that I or my customers have been able to determine from the driver's seat, and it improves the margin of safety even on 91 octane.

OK - Here are the results from today's Dyno runs!

Below you will see a stock STi before and after the Subaru Ping Re-flash. The chart shows it all - looks like a 20 AWHP loss with the Subaru reflash, and you still have to run 93 octane!

Please note - today was very hot and humid = terrible conditions for racing or measuring HP + we are about 1200ft in elevation.

The data that was gathered was from 2 different STi's on 2 different days with different weather conditions with mixed 93-94 octane.

Because of this, this data is anything but conclusive or complete - So please take the results with a grain of salt.

http://members.cox.net/sterlingday/sterlingday/images/Dyno1.jpg

I also did a comparison on the old debate of CAI vs Drop in filters.

Please note the Drop-in also has the Silencer Delete option.

It seems that the CAI is good for 3-4 AWHP over the Drop-in.

This was acheived by leaning the A/F mixture a bit, thus creating a few more ponies!


http://members.cox.net/sterlingday/sterlingday/images/Dyno2.jpg

Did you plot the a/f to see if the cai affected maf readings? (If you can tell from that...)

I'd like to know more about what you actually measured and how.

Was it the same car and you swapped ECMs same day?
Same car on two different days/ECMs?
Two different cars same day one with reflash and one without?

Have you measured it on 91/92? I am not feeling any power loss, in fact the car feels slightly faster and much more "solid" in terms of power delivery (on 92).

:furious: Look at the Mazda RX-8 lower power=buyback or other perks. Subaru kept the horespower the same, but lost massive torque and gave up both in the lower rpm's. :furious: I am in process of having mine reflashed, but now am tempted to go get my car back and live with the ping untill another inexpensive option is ready to go. Or get the reflash and then have them buy my newly depowered STi back and wait again for the new Legacy turbo.:furious:

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
I'd like to know more about what you actually measured and how.

Was it the same car and you swapped ECMs same day?
Same car on two different days/ECMs?
Two different cars same day one with reflash and one without?

Have you measured it on 91/92? I am not feeling any power loss, in fact the car feels slightly faster and much more "solid" in terms of power delivery (on 92).

Ditto on Glenns questions. I'd have the same questions if you showed no change or a power increase. What exactly is being measured here?

I also see that the HP peaks ~ 1,000 rpms later on the reflashed car.

And it looks like there's about a max 12 HP loss. But again, you can see that there's at least 20 hp less throughout most of the curve. We need a lot more data! I'll stay with my original (w/very slight pinging on rare occasion on 94 octane), if that proves to be realistic data.

Originally posted by DubuRX
Did you plot the a/f to see if the cai affected maf readings? (If you can tell from that...)

Sure did, the CAI leaned the car out a little, for obvious reasons, and the car made a little more power.

It really wasnt much at all:

CAI A/F = 10.6-10.8

Drop in = 10.4 - 10.6

The STi runs rich as heck, so no wonder a tenth of a point is good for a couple of HP.

The CAI did make the A/F choppy, and the Drop in was much smoother, Go figure.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
I'd like to know more about what you actually measured and how.

Was it the same car and you swapped ECMs same day?
Same car on two different days/ECMs?
Two different cars same day one with reflash and one without?

Have you measured it on 91/92? I am not feeling any power loss, in fact the car feels slightly faster and much more "solid" in terms of power delivery (on 92).

I agree - I wish I had a lot more data, and it was more controled.

Truth be known, between it all, it cost us $175.00 to get this data.

It also seems we were the first to attempt to obtain such data.

2 different cars
2 different days/ECM's
2 different types of weather conditions

I can honestly tell you that this data is anything but conclusive or consistant! If I had the time and resources I would have completed a more controled data collection to begin with.

I do think that it was important even to collect this data regardless of the inconsistancy, it does give us a small peek into what is really happening with the reflash.

I am no longer considering the Subaru reflash. I will continue to mix race gas, and await for the ROM file for the STi to come out. Then I will reflash, but only a custome tune, not Subarus.

You acknowledge the data was not obtained with much consistency yet you say it gives us a peek into what is going on?! :eek:

Certainly the shape of an ignition advance or boost curve might be interesting to compare but your dyno plots don't give us a peek into anything that we can draw any real conclusions from.

Certainly it is more scientific than my butt-dyno, but I'd only be interested in seeing dyno plots from the same car, on the same day using the same gas.

Speaking of which did both cars get gas at the same gas station, and what octane in each car?

Was the reflash pull done on the hot day???

There's no "real" comparative data here... yet.

I also bet people (who don't know enough to know what it means) will be saying the reflash loses 20 BHP.

I can assure you my butt dyno can detect a 20 BHP loss, at least with the same certainty as your numbers.

Glenn

PS I never expected the car to have 300 BHP on 91/92 - I am most after reliability. I certainly do hope the reflash keeps the same power on 93/94 for those that can buy it locally.

PPS It also seems we were the first to attempt to obtain such data. I assume you mean outside Subaru. I have not been able to obtain the Subaru engine dyno sheets for before/after.

given tha above variables and subaru's commitment to statistical process control, what % of error would one add? +/- 2-3%?

i'll shell out more cash on a controlled experiment - but i won't cover the whole cost as the comparison above was representative enough for me - i find it hard to believe there is THAT much variability in motors produced on a modern mfg line - some knowledgeable input (mine certainly is not) here may help in developing a delta to be used in interpreting the posted dyno plots.

a question though, can i swap ecus between cars - as in, is there something unique to these new ecus that would prevent it?

my vehicle has the intake silencer cut and a k&n filter, 4500 miles, and i have been using fuel additives to get it to 93/94 octane. it has the SOA reflash. if i can just swap ecus with a non-flashed unit i'm all over it, and it should produce results without having to factor in a +/- degree of accuracy. or the contrary, if someone with a totally stock sti would like to run my flashed ecu in their vehicle, i'll glady drive 110 miles to dyno it and split costs. again, at this point i could care less about warranty issues pertaining to the above.

-concerned consumer mike

It isn't just differences in motors you could be measuring, this is a chassis dyno so it is the driveline as well. Measuring on two different days, even temperature corrected, is not ideal for forced induction cars because they just suck on hot days.

You could have measure the same original ECU car on a very hot day and got a 20 AWHP loss over a cooler day....

I also suggest running the reflash ECU first when the car is cooler and less heatsoak... that way there is no suggestion that the reflash didn't get a fair shake.

Glenn

Originally posted by horshack
Please note - today was very hot and humid = terrible conditions for racing or measuring HP + we are about 1200ft in elevation.
Originally posted by gills
OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My car is going in for the reflash tuesday and that is just a downright ridiculous powerloss!

SUBARU, how can you possibly expect to get away with this!?!?
:rolleyes: This is going to go downhill so fast...

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
You acknowledge the data was not obtained with much consistency yet you say it gives us a peek into what is going on?! :eek:

Certainly the shape of an ignition advance or boost curve might be interesting to compare but your dyno plots don't give us a peek into anything that we can draw any real conclusions from.

Certainly it is more scientific than my butt-dyno, but I'd only be interested in seeing dyno plots from the same car, on the same day using the same gas.

Speaking of which did both cars get gas at the same gas station, and what octane in each car?

Was the reflash pull done on the hot day???

There's no "real" comparative data here... yet.

I also bet people (who don't know enough to know what it means) will be saying the reflash loses 20 BHP.

I can assure you my butt dyno can detect a 20 BHP loss, at least with the same certainty as your numbers.

Glenn

PS I never expected the car to have 300 BHP on 91/92 - I am most after reliability. I certainly do hope the reflash keeps the same power on 93/94 for those that can buy it locally.

PPS I assume you mean outside Subaru. I have not been able to obtain the Subaru engine dyno sheets for before/after.


True - I would have liked to have had a more controled test, but honestly I wouldnt cast stones since NO ONE ELSE even attempted to collect such data.

If you can get Subaru dyno charts then show everyone! Until then I believe they dont exsist, at least not to the consumer.

If Mike is willing and DynoComp is available I would re-run the test on Mikes car swaping ECU's. But again at who's cost?

Just so I can set your mind at ease?

Enough data was gathered to make my mind up. Understanding the variance in conditions and cars I can except the 3-4% swag in results.

The fact still remains that the reflash doesnt support 91 octane, and so far it shows that Subaru pulled timing or redcued AVS advance or some other table that reduced over all power output.

Originally posted by Cabal


:rolleyes: This is going to go downhill so fast...

i totally expected this to go downhill fast

The fact still remains that the reflash doesnt support 91 octane,

Where did you get this "fact" from?

I think you wasted your money. Much better to get two cars together on the same day and swap ECUs. It would probably have cost even less dyno time (wouldn't have to move cars around and re-hitch them etc).

Glenn

PS at least tell us what gas was used in each car and which car was done on the hot day.

PPS perhaps somone will use these dyno plots in their class action suit, that would be the perfect irony. (or they'll call 1800SUBARU3 and demand their 20 BHP back)

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
It isn't just differences in motors you could be measuring, this is a chassis dyno so it is the driveline as well. Measuring on two different days, even temperature corrected, is not ideal for forced induction cars because they just suck on hot days.

You could have measure the same original ECU car on a very hot day and got a 20 AWHP loss over a cooler day....

I also suggest running the reflash ECU first when the car is cooler and less heatsoak... that way there is no suggestion that the reflash didn't get a fair shake.

Glenn

As it is, I was at Dyno Comp for over 12 hours, Rich was great, he stuck in there even with his 8 month pregnat wife working in the office, who expected to go home by 5pm.

There were a lot of cars there, other than ours for a dyno day.

Dyno Comp did offer when they get the STi ROM file we can delta dash the cars and record all the ECU parameters. At this moment there is no ETA on when ECUTEK will have the STi ROM file available.

This would be the only really conclusive test. But I am sure it still wont be good enough for everyone.

I totally agree with you, I want more controled data to compare, but until that day and time comes, this is what we were able to come up with.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
snip

I also suggest running the reflash ECU first when the car is cooler and less heatsoak... that way there is no suggestion that the reflash didn't get a fair shake.

Glenn

way cool glenn, i want to do it. if we can get a concensus from contributors in this thread on what factors to control on the dyno runs before next time, it might prevent a downhill slide in more ways than one.

are the items you mentioned in a previous post comprehensive enough to produce a plot that you feel will be truly representative for most board members?

perhaps the posted plots can stimulate thought processes, a bit of community involvement, and hopefully lead to widely accepted numbers concerning the reflash.

i reckon now is the time to get all control points ppl would like to see listed, just like the step you mention above - this is where the beauty of the board really shines

if it turns into a major urinating contest - i'll cover all costs just to shut ppl up - so to speak

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


Where did you get this "fact" from?

I think you wasted your money. Much better to get two cars together on the same day and swap ECUs. It would probably have cost even less dyno time (wouldn't have to move cars around and re-hitch them etc).

Glenn

PS at least tell us what gas was used in each car and which car was done on the hot day.

PPS perhaps somone will use these dyno plots in their class action suit, that would be the perfect irony. (or they'll call 1800SUBARU3 and demand their 20 BHP back)

I dont think it was a waste of money, but more over time, this data is better data then anyone had before which was NONE!

It wouldnt have cost anyless to swap ECU's, it was $85 for 3 pulls with A/F.

Even if the ECU's were swapped, you still have the variable of what the ECU has learned on the non-reflashed car.

The reason I didnt swap my ECU with Mike is, I have mixed 95 octane since day one of the "ping" plus the addition of a TBE and CAI. In addition Dyno Comps STi has a AVO turbo upgrade, TBE...at 100 octane....ect ect.

So just tossing my ECU or Dyno Comps in a stock car wouldnt have been fair either, unless we drove it around the block for a spell.


The base car was dyno'd on a cooler day with 76 100 octane mix to yeild 93-94 octane.

The reflash car was dyno'd on a hotter day with zylene mix of 93-94 octane.

Also the dyno is supposed adjust for weather conditions and altitude.

I think you need to do four pulls:

Car A with 91/92 on reflashed ECU #1
Car A with 91/92 on original ECU #2

Car B with 93/94 on reflashed ECU #3
Car B with 93/94 on original ECU #4

All four ECUs should have run for some time (50 miles?) in the respective cars (with the respective octane) to ensure the ECUs have learned enough.

The reason I doubled the effort (needing four cars, two to donate ECUs) is to measure the effect of the change relative to the octane you're running.

Or we could just do it in two different cities (one with good gas, one with goat pee).

We could do it down the road from me at FAME but I truly can't be bothered because I trust my butt dyno so much.

I'm also sure Shiv or one of the other tuners (Nathan nmyeti?) will do it.

Glenn

With all due respect to the effort, the comparison presented has no value whatsoever...and I'm not trying to be overdramatic. To qualify my opinion, I worked in biotech research labs for 12 years, and let's just say I am most familiar with what is required to properly create and evaluate meaningful data.

As others have eluded to, one must eliminate as many variables as possible. The factors you gave, "2 different cars, 2 different days/ECM's, 2 different types of weather conditions" say one thing regarding this data: It's useless. You have all of the greatest variables in regards to conditions which influence results. There is every chance you could have had obtained the exact same findings with the two OEM ECUs with those variables. The only other great variation you don't have is differernt dynos...I'm assuming those runs from the two cars were on the same dyno.

Conclusion: Let no one think for a minute that this data comparison has any value whatsoever.

Suggested research: Perform dyno on same car at the same time, first with OEM ECU, followed immediately by a swap in with the reflash. Then go back to the OEM ECU (after potential heatsoaking) and do another run. Repeat the same after the car has cooled, then heated to normal operating temp (just not heat soaked), only start with the reflash unit first. Pay special attention to to having a fan on the IC with these runs, as a heatsoaked IC will now be the number one varying factor.

Originally posted by mfisch


way cool glenn, i want to do it. if we can get a concensus from contributors in this thread on what factors to control on the dyno runs before next time, it might prevent a downhill slide in more ways than one.

are the items you mentioned in a previous post comprehensive enough to produce a plot that you feel will be truly representative for most board members?

perhaps the posted plots can stimulate thought processes, a bit of community involvement, and hopefully lead to widely accepted numbers concerning the reflash.

i reckon now is the time to get all control points ppl would like to see listed, just like the step you mention above - this is where the beauty of the board really shines

if it turns into a major urinating contest - i'll cover all costs just to shut ppl up - so to speak


I agree, however, I believe it would better to delta dash each car when Dyno Comp gets the ROM file for ECUTEK. There are simply too many variables, and there is no way you will be able to please everyone.

I will support and assist in anything that you all want to do to get better data.

Speaking of Glenn's butt dyno...

Glenn, how is your reflashed car doing? About a week now on the new ecu?

Originally posted by STiBro
With all due respect to the effort, the comparison presented has no value whatsoever...and I'm not trying to be overdramatic. To qualify my opinion, I worked in biotech research labs for 12 years, and let's just say I am most familiar with what is required to properly create and evaluate meaningful data.

As others have eluded to, one must eliminate as many variables as possible. The factors you gave, "2 different cars, 2 different days/ECM's, 2 different types of weather conditions" say one thing regarding this data: It's useless. You have all of the greatest variables in regards to conditions which influence results. There is every chance you could have had obtained the exact same findings with the two OEM ECUs with those variables. The only other great variation you don't have is differernt dynos...I'm assuming those runs from the two cars were on the same dyno.

Conclusion: Let no one think for a minute that this data comparison has any value whatsoever.

Suggested research: Perform dyno on same car at the same time, first with OEM ECU, followed immediately by a swap in with the reflash. Then go back to the OEM ECU (after potential heatsoaking) and do another run. Repeat the same after the car has cooled, then heated to normal operating temp (just not heat soaked), only start with the reflash unit first. Pay special attention to to having a fan on the IC with these runs, as a heatsoaked IC will now be the number one varying factor.

Believe me, if this were possible I would have been all over it. I work for a large corp that uses Six Sigma methods for projects and data comparison.

The problem that still remains is the availabilty to proper test vehicles with controled test conditions. Which means that the historical data is not enough to validate root cause.

I would have to have a fleet of STi's for at least a week to control as many factors as possible and repeat variables among several different cars to compare data sets.

This wasnt possible, thus my statement that the data was not complete or conclusive. But at least the data does exsist, and its less specutalation than the butt dyno with no real facts or data.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
I think you need to do four pulls:

Car A with 91/92 on reflashed ECU #1
Car A with 91/92 on original ECU #2

Car B with 93/94 on reflashed ECU #3
Car B with 93/94 on original ECU #4

All four ECUs should have run for some time (50 miles?) in the respective cars (with the respective octane) to ensure the ECUs have learned enough.

The reason I doubled the effort (needing four cars, two to donate ECUs) is to measure the effect of the change relative to the octane you're running.

Or we could just do it in two different cities (one with good gas, one with goat pee).

We could do it down the road from me at FAME but I truly can't be bothered because I trust my butt dyno so much.

I'm also sure Shiv or one of the other tuners (Nathan nmyeti?) will do it.

Glenn

This would be a good start, however not at all complete for a real test. We would truly need a fleet of STi's for a complete test.

And why cant you be bothered?

It seems a bit strange to have such strong opinion but not to be bothered with assistance in a solution.

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


Where did you get this "fact" from?

I think you wasted your money. Much better to get two cars together on the same day and swap ECUs. It would probably have cost even less dyno time (wouldn't have to move cars around and re-hitch them etc).

Glenn

PS at least tell us what gas was used in each car and which car was done on the hot day.

PPS perhaps somone will use these dyno plots in their class action suit, that would be the perfect irony. (or they'll call 1800SUBARU3 and demand their 20 BHP back)

fact? the local subie dealer shure the heck did not know - porter states it in this thread i believe.

one "fact" - my car would detonate on command after the SOA reflash and 91 octane here in southern az. i'm mixing to 93/94 currently (thanks again porter) and have not heard det, yet.

if i switch back to 91 octane, i will have to bring the car in again for a 2nd warranty repair for the same valid complaint - pinging under acceleration. that leaves 1 strike left until the car is technically a lemon under AZ law. customer arbitration board time - their contact information is listed in the back of your owners manual i believe

the gas used in my vehicle is chevron 91 octane obtained in tucson, az and mixed with additives to achieve 93/94 octane. i believe my car was done on the "hot" day, but am unaware of the temp on the other run.

i would enjoy being the subie lawyer on any class action that used the posted plots as a basis for litigation. whoot!

no wasted money in my eyes - i was able to meet other sti owners, subie enthusiasts, and see what _my_ car was doing with the reflash

again, if we just get a list of desired control points, and a stock sti volunteer, we can press on with the dyno runs ASAP.

i wonder if SOA will allow you to have your ecu returned to the stock map?

Originally posted by horshack


i totally expected this to go downhill fast

Your data is interesting and helpful, but you could have avoided the flames by saying straight out that you were measuring different cars. People are already posting about this on other threads convinced that this is a before and after test....when it really was not.

I made some edits to the original posting dyno charts. It was very late and a very long day.



Originally posted by horshack


OK - Here are the results