I just learned from my regional SOA rep that Subaru of America has just received their updated ECM flash from SoJ for the USDM STi to combat the detonation problem.

Customers will need to leave their car with the dealer while their ECMs are sent to Subaru for reprogramming. There is an expected 4-6 day turnaround time, this is will obviously vary depending on a number of variables. Be very patient, it may take several weeks to get the process rolling on your car.

As soon as more flash units become available from Subaru, this will be a dealership-level flash service.

Let your dealer know IF you are experiencing detonation (NOT ALL CARS EXHIBIT IT!), and they will help you resolve the issue after testing and verification. If they aren't already up to speed on the issue, have them contact their regional rep for more information.

It may take some time for information to disseminate and to arrange scheduling through your dealer. PLEASE BE PATIENT through this process, this is not a recall so you will have to go through the full dealership testing, work order, and reporting process. There is an order in which this process must happen, please give your local dealerships the benefit of the doubt on this and allow the SOA reporting and resolution (flash) process to work as it should.

Enjoy!

if this is true, it's really lame that they would require us to leave our cars at the dealer for 4-6 days, instead of just shipping out the 200 or so ECUs to dealers in advance. With so few cars affected, if they are really just reflashing, why not send out the reflashed ECU's in advance, collect the bad ones, and reflash them for use in future cars?

hmm...no det WITH mods...unless it gives more power, i think ill pass...

Originally posted by happasaiyan
hmm...no det WITH mods...unless it gives more power, i think ill pass...

Same situation here. Mine runs great and I don't want less hp or tq. My ECU reflash will probably be done by a tuner. :D

4 - 6 Days for the techs to rape your cars on the road while "testing":rolleyes:

Any reason for this reflash to cause some power loss? If not, better safe than sorry.:confused:

Originally posted by Soon2bSubbieowner
4 - 6 Days for the techs to rape your cars on the road while "testing":rolleyes:

If you don't have anything mature to say, please remain quiet or go elsewhere.

This thread is intended for informational purposes, it is not and will NOT be a bitch session for what you think might or might not happen.

Also, if you think an STi can be "test driven" with no ECU in the car, you might want to sit and think very hard about what that means for a while. It'll come to you eventually. :lol: :lol:


Subaru will eventually have a flash cartridge at every dealer to perform this update, currently there is only ONE (1) in the country, so the ECMs have to be sent to Subaru for programming and then sent right back. 4-6 days is an estimate based on the outside chance of shipping problems or backlog at SoA.



PLEASE DO NOT attack your local dealer over this issue. Subaru is making every effort to resolve the det issue, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that there will be a change in torque or horsepower. These are currently unknown variables and anyone who may try to tell you otherwise is speaking from a soapbox of ignorance and deception. It is HIGHLY unlikely that Subaru would cripple the performance of the vehicle in order to fix something like a small timing map glitch. These kinds of issues have been fixed many times in the past on other vehicles with no change in drivability whatsoever.

Thanks!

-Jason Porter

This was the same situation with the WRX --- they only had one flash cartridge so ECM's had to be sent in.

Originally posted by Porter


If you don't have anything mature to say, please remain quiet or go elsewhere.

This thread is intended for informational purposes, it is not and will NOT be a bitch session for what you think might or might not happen.

Also, if you think an STi can be "test driven" with no ECU in the car, you might want to sit and think very hard about what that means for a while. It'll come to you eventually. :lol: :lol:


Subaru will eventually have a flash cartridge at every dealer to perform this update, currently there is only ONE (1) in the country, so the ECMs have to be sent to Subaru for programming and then sent right back. 4-6 days is an estimate based on the outside chance of shipping problems or backlog at SoA.



No ish it cant be driven without an ECU, but Im pretty sure after they replace the ECU there gonna have to test drive the car to make sure it works :rolleyes: and 4 - 6 Days to reflash an ECU are you joking me, I dont care what anyone says it shouldnt take that long. An hour AT THE MOST. I wouldnt care about a backlog issue. I would wait for the part the stuff to come in, drop off my car and for this kind of fix pick it up the next day.

Originally posted by Porter

It is HIGHLY unlikely that Subaru would cripple the performance of the vehicle in order to fix a small timing map glitch. These kinds of issues have been fixed many times in the past on other vehicles with no change in drivability whatsoever.



I am sorry but I don't see HOW Subuara can fix this issue without affecting the power in some way. Granted I don't see the 300hp figure changing (since that number is derived futher up in the rpms) but I think we will get a drop in torque to around 280ft lbs or so. That timing 'hump' is right at the torque peak and as such contributes to that torque peak.

Personally I think that the torque can be made up by an extra 1-2 psi of boost in the midrange while pulling about 2-3 degrees of timing to get rid of the knock, but I am not FHI so :p. It will definitly be interesting to see what happens with this.

I just wanted to clarify, I'm not upset with the dealers, etc., I just think it would be nice for them to send out a couple of floating ECU's for the cars that are affected, since there is only one reflash location. Kind of a dealer "core" deposit. then, if a dealer had more than one to reflash, they could send the previous ECU in for reflashing for the next customer, who wouldn't have to wait. The dealer could schedule the appointments 6+ days apart to save the customer the wait time.

If the reflash is to be implemented on future STi's, which is probably the case, it would be much better to be able to order a reflashed ECU, and have your dealer send yours in for the reflash treatment for Subaru to send to someone else, or put in a new car, and save the 4-6 days of inconvenience. This might all be a horrible idea, if the ECUs are VIN marked or something like that, though.

I'm guessing Subaru might not be too excited to provide a rental car for those affected, to get them through the 4-6 days without their daily driver?

Rob, there is currently only one flash cartridge in the country. This will change as more become available. This is the method by which Subaru is currently processing the claims. I have no other information to give you, unfortunately. The shipping delay is a temporary problem that will go away as soon as more flash cartridges become available. 4-6 days is a decent estimate. I hope to give my customers a 3 day turnaround, but obviously chaos is the rule rather than the exception when you are talking about shipping anything in this day and age. Appointments will have to be spaced out somewhat, obviously SOA can't flash 200 ECM modules simultaneously. You'll have to be very patient.

As far as a rental vehicle, you will have to check with your local dealer on that issue. Different dealers have different policies and they will have to work with Subaru on that. Obviously I have no information about your local dealer, you will have to query them on that.

As for the changes being made, speculation solves nothing and only serves to muddy the waters with misinformation. We will have to wait and see.

OMG will people ever be happy :confused:

davidm_sh : your second paragraph contradicts your first paragraph. ;) ... there's either no solution ... or there is one ... decide.

Thanks for the info, Porter, I don't want to sound like a whiney baby, or something. I have a daily driver if I choose to do the reflash. I'll stay out of the speculation, but I think reducing pinging is probably a good idea. The car will still be tons of fun with 295 lb/ft of torque, or whatever.

Have a good one.

Originally posted by Soon2bSubbieowner


No ish it cant be driven without an ECU, but Im pretty sure after they replace the ECU there gonna have to test drive the car to make sure it works :rolleyes: and 4 - 6 Days to reflash an ECU are you joking me, I dont care what anyone says it shouldnt take that long. An hour AT THE MOST. I wouldnt care about a backlog issue. I would wait for the part the stuff to come in, drop off my car and for this kind of fix pick it up the next day. Did you see the part in his post about how they have to ship your ECU to subaru... by subaru he means SOA... so unless you take your car directly to them... you'll have some down time while shipping is being done. Yes of course they will drive it after they get the ECU back... they have to make sure it works. You guys are way too parinoid.. & skim posts way too fast & miss a lot of the important details. It's funny actually :D

Jason,
The fact that they are addressing this issue is great news. Hopefully we will not see any of the speculation that people are speculating :) Please let me know when I can bring my car in and we can start the process. This is my only daily driver though so we may need to try to work something out.

Dan

Great News
Now I hope SOC follows SOA in this for us Canadians

Off to my dealer to let him know of this

Originally posted by Porter
As far as a rental vehicle, you will have to check with your local dealer on that issue. Different dealers have different policies and they will have to work with Subaru on that. Obviously I have no information about your local dealer, you will have to query them on that. Whenever WRX ECUs had to be sent to NJ for a reflash, the owner was always offered a loaner or rental, regardless of dealership policy, under the Subaru Owner Assistance Alternate Transportation Program. I would expect the same to be true for the STi.

Originally posted by dlowman

The fact that they are addressing this issue is great news.

Agreed.

I remember reading a post from a tuner with a dyno and a data logger that the problem is actually related to the ECU insisting to push timing even after det on some occasions. It only happened on about 25% of the dyno runs, and didn't match the ECU behavior on the other runs, where it behaved fine. Anybody know if that has been verified by other parties?

If that's true, it sounds like a plain ol' bug in the ECU, so a proper fix for the problem should NOT affect power or torque. If Subaru's solution is to simply back off timing everywhere, it would affect power/torque. I'm hoping for the "bug" story to be true...I've gotten addicted to the power!

Neal

Makes more since that this is some sort of a bug. Wonder if the car may actually end up with a little more power since the timing is not going to be pulled as crazily.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
Whenever WRX ECUs had to be sent to NJ for a reflash, the owner was always offered a loaner or rental, regardless of dealership policy, under the Subaru Owner Assistance Alternate Transportation Program. I would expect the same to be true for the STi.

I wonder if those of us in the tri-state can just go to SOA and get it done? :confused:

thx a lot Porter!!


great news

i d take a lil torque loss over constant det on anyday, plus we haven't seen any evidence this will actually affect hp/torque.

Porter,

If it is an ECU software issue, then should the problem be inherent in all STis as they all share the same software? Or is it that there are different revisions? If it is a software issue, then I think it should affect all cars (if they run on 91). In that case, should there be a recall then?

I am still in break-in, so I don't know. But, if I have det (and I'm on 91), I sure would not want to demonstrate it to the dealer if I don't have to; but rather just get an ECU reflash.

Thanks in advance for any info you can provide...

Been watching this thread a long time.....I just broke my car in this past weekend and found mine to be afflicted also. I called SOA and got no formal admission that the problem exists. I made an appointment with the service manager at my dealership who says he has heard nothing of this problem. Although, mine is only the 3rd STi they have sold. I think this is very good news....I just hope it actually fixes the problem.

is there any official SOA tech. paper about this? I would like to know some technical and background info. on this issue by SOA.

Will someone with access to the on-line subaru tech. site check on this?

This is great news for everyone. I doubt there is any difference in the ECU's from build dates up until this point. It would be a good guess to say that Japan may already have this information and begin installing "corrected" ECU's for the US STi's.
I don't know if I need a "fix" or not being just over 700 miles and no WOT just yet. The recommended fuel is available in this area, but for those in 91 octane parts of the country this is excellent news for them and their pistons!
Hopefully someone will compare the fix to the non-fix ECU on a dyno so *we* know what's affected.
Thanks again!

My Subie has light pinging at WOT so I look forward to someone doing a comparison of an STi before and after the re-flashed ECU. I will hold off, unless the pinging gets worse, and see what has been affected.

It's good news to hear that Subaru is responding to people's concerns so quickly. For a limited production vehicle to have a fix in about a month of it's release is pretty damn good.:)

Originally posted by davidm_sh
I think we will get a drop in torque to around 280ft lbs or so.What're you basing your 280trq guesstimate on?

You can actually make more power right below the point of detonation. There's no reason at all for this reflash to cause of loss of torque.

Thanks for sharing the info Porter! Were you directed to make this post by someone? Were you authorized to make this post?

I just checked the techinfo site and didn't see anything posted. (BTW, anyone can browse the site to the point of downloading items, then you can see the title of the document).

This is great news for folks with the problem.

TRS

I was instructed by my regional rep to go ahead and make appointments for our customers who are experiencing det. I asked if it was open for me to let people know about it, and he replied that "this was the fix". I'll call him right now and verify.

Ya know, some of you guys are absolutely impossible to satisfy.

Some complained that the car didn't have a radio, then everyone was up in arms about the det issue, demanding an immediate fix, so SOA rushed to get it done, and now we still have people complaining about the "way" they are going about fixing it. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by deadbolt
Ya know, some of you guys are absolutely impossible to satisfy.

Some complained that the car didn't have a radio, then everyone was up in arms about the det issue, demanding an immediate fix, so SOA rushed to get it done, and now we still have people complaining about the "way" they are going about fixing it. :rolleyes:

I figured you would have learned that dealing with humans, and the American human in particular is frought with frustraion...people always need something to complain about...you sell cars right? I am sure you know what it is like to deal with people...I have learned to sit back and enjoy the show.

Hey, if I keep the car as is and melt a piston, can I still claim under the lemon law? (j/k) :banana:

PS I have my car booked in for 8/11 (first date avail with loaner car), my dealer just heard 10 mins ago (presumably via nasioc ;)) about the reflash.

I think its understandable some people are upset about having to leave their new car in the dealers for a week whilst a part of it is shipped to jersey to be rectified. The car should never have been relased with this problem in the first place. Put yourself in the position of a new owner of what is their pride and joy and you should be able to empathise with that.

Lets hope they dont lose any ECU's in the post or you will have dead STi's in the dealers for weeks.

In the UK, when people buy a PPP upgrade, Prodrive ship a new ECU to the dealers in advance, the original ECU is then shipped back to Prodrive for a reflash. Fitting the full PPP which includes a performance cat, backbox and some minor pipe changes takes less than 1 day. The dealer is fined if they take longer than agreed to ship the original ECU back. (that means they never do fail to ship them!)

I'm glad the problem has been acknowledged.

I live in California, limited to 91 octane, and I want to buy an STI shortly.

Originally posted by Porter
I was instructed by my regional rep to go ahead and make appointments for our customers who are experiencing det. I asked if it was open for me to let people know about it, and he replied that "this was the fix". I'll call him right now and verify.

Hehehehe.....
These are stuff we're not supposed to say to a customer :)
We were taught to say "this is the improvement", instead of "this is the fix" (implying that there is a problem)

I have about 2400 miles on my car and have run nothing but 94 octane. I have never heard it ping, but I have felt significant changes in power from one minute to the next. I'm not sure if their is slight detonation and the ecu is pulling timing then a few minutes later goes back to normal. I've also noticed if you shut the car off for a second then turn it back on it feels normal again. Has anyone noticed this, especially people experiencing audible pinging?

Either way this is great news, i'm definitely going to get this reflash. I just can't tie up my car for 6 days so i'll have to wait. I'm not complaining.

I still think SoA should invite us tri-staters down to HQ so we can get our cars fixed and test drive the 22B! :D :banana: :D :banana:

I'm not going to try and start a flame war here.. But with the way NASIOC has been lately I'm sure someone will come down on me hard for simply stating some common sense of tuning.

Guys.. The easiest way to fix knock is to take some timing out... Hopefully 1-2 degrees will get it done. Or... you can try adding fuel.. but I doubt they'd go that route. To compensate for any loss of power you could try adding some boost, but I don't see that happening. Either way.. it's not going to be a HUGE difference and I doubt you'd notice it without having dyno'd before and after. The last thing Subaru wants to do is hurt the performance in a big way... but it will have to take a minor hit. (By minor.. I'm guessing 3-7 whp based on dyno runs with the car knocking and not knocking)

I know it's been posted 1,000 times by Nathan and some other tuners... but I'll say it again.... The STi ECU is VERY agressive in advancing the timing on it's own. You'll generally find that the first 2-3 runs on a dyno will be knock free.. then the 4-5th will knock audibly.. but the 6th will be knock free again. Between the 1st and 2nd run with an STi I observed on a dyno in GA there was a 20 WHP difference.. That's a huge amount of correction on the ECU's part. Unfortunately the logging utilities we had at the time wouldn't log the ignition timing for some reason so I don't have exact details.

Afraid you might lose a little bit of horsepower? Don't reflash your ECU if you don't HAVE to. The difference is not in the ECU's on the car... EVERY car is different. With the standard WRX's dyno's have shown around 10whp difference in cars from the same year. That's just how it goes. If you only get slight knocking while romping on the car, consider using a higher octane fuel. A mix of 90% 93 octane and 10% toluene (sherwin williams or any other paint store has it) will give you a nice 95ish octane that is safe to run on a daily basis. That should actually help you power wise in theory since the ECU is so agressive in bringing that timing up... Will it know where to stop with the higher octane fuel? I haven't a clue, but I'd love to test it out.

I think it's great that SOA is taking the time to address the issue. As I said in the previous paragraph... If you're afraid of losing horsepower... Do what you should have been doing from the start... compensate for the aggressive timing with a higher octane. That's what those of us with tunable computers do when we want to start cranking up the timing and horsepower. ;)

Good post Tim.


As I said before, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that this ECM change will affect horsepower or drivability. It all remains to be seen.

Speculation tells us nothing, it only clouds the issue. Wait and see.

you guys in california must be blessed with fuel that is not good enough for the sti, the cdn version has a sticker on the inside of the fuel door, 93 octaine required, i use 92 no pinging, we are also at 2200 feet elevation , witch kills a little boost, 94 octaine fuel will be available in 2004, from husky energy, this will make life a little easier on the engine, ;) ;)

Originally posted by Porter
As I said before, there is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE that this ECM change will affect horsepower or drivability. It all remains to be seen. Thanks for clearing that up. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Austin
What're you basing your 280trq guesstimate on?

You can actually make more power right below the point of detonation. There's no reason at all for this reflash to cause of loss of torque.

Thanks for sharing the info Porter! Were you directed to make this post by someone? Were you authorized to make this post?

I am sorry to 'speculate' and add fuel to the rumor mill fire, but logic dictates that if the car is knocking from an aggressive tune that getting rid of the detonation IS going to come at a certain amount power loss... PRESUMABLY... sorry there I go again :).

I honestly think the loss in power that will occur will be for people running 91 octane fuel and be hardly noticable. I mean when you look at TXS dyno plots the timing hump is almost identical between their 'good' and 'bad' runs. They are trying to run 23-24 degrees at 4000-4400rpm which is pretty insane but timing does make power and taking it away will possibly take away some power. Personally I would GLADLY take a almost neglagable amount of power out of the begining of the power band to avoid detonation.

I am sorry though for stirring up the pot and I will make no further speculations ;).

Shall the new, improved ECU cause change the name of the car ?
Subaru Imreza WRX STi ver. 2.0 or maybe 1.1 :-)

There are new updates for your STi.

Install them now? [Yes] [No]

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
There are new updates for your STi.

Install them now? [Yes] [No]

hee, hee glenn...

dont forget that they make you reboot after the updates are donwloaded and installed... :D :D :D

:banana:

Originally posted by davidm_sh
They are trying to run 23-24 degrees at 4000-4400rpm which is pretty insane but timing does make power and taking it away will possibly take away some power.

That's actually quite normal for an STi, according to a tuner that's been doing them for many many years. It seems insane because people have yet to get used to the STi motors - you have to simply give up thinking in WRX turbo terms.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

I posted this before, but the thread evaporated when this one came back today...

I am hoping the Subaru techs out there (Porter? Sparks?) can answer this question. I have an STi enroute which should hit the shores at the end of the month. I am supposed to take possesion in Colorado around the second week of August.

Here's the question: is the ECU in this car already re-flashed? (rev.2) or is it the same as the cars delivered in June and July? I want to know if I should be prepared to give up my car for 4-6 days just after I pick it up... :(

Thanks!

-ch

So I submit again...is there any possibility that the timing spike was put in intensionally to challenge detonation? If you look at the graph (at least as I remember), it really is a spike. Which to me doesn't make sense. Why would they have it rise AND DROP so quickly right at 4K rpms? I would think the curve would be much more smooth if their direct intent was just to have as much timing as possible for power. But if they wanted to give a quick "touch" of very high timing (like quickly finger tapping a stove to see if it's hot or just how hot) to reveal to the learning mode of the ECM where det. will occur, that seems to make more sense.

I can't remember where I saw the timing graph, but if I recall correctly, the timing advance at ~ 6K rpms was about the same as it was at the spike. Maybe the ECU looks for det. during the spike, and then advances the timing later in the curve just below the point it saw det. at 4K rpms?

If that's true, then "max" power might be affected if they reduce the agressiveness of the learning tactic.

But really, my bet is that SOA will be smart enough to have a reflash that keeps the advertised performance stats...it has to or else they're in deep, deep poop (in the legal department).

Terry

I've got roughly 2400 kms on my car now and heard quite a bit of pre det. Especialy under heavy boost ( 3rd, 4th gear and 60kph) the best I have up here is 92octane. Since I changed my intake the pre det seem to have disappered all together. Could be a combination of things but that intake is sure restricting. What a difference. Who Knows?

Let your dealer know IF you are experiencing detonation (NOT ALL CARS EXHIBIT IT!), and they will help you resolve the issue after testing and verification. If they aren't already up to speed on the issue, have them contact their regional rep for more information.

This is great news. But how is everyone to even know that they have detonation in their STi? What about those owners that have never owned a turbo vehicle or owned a car with det or visit the internet? I personally have been trying to figure out if I have had det since Glenns first "Fess up about STi det problems!!" post. I had not heard anything like it in my car at the time I had listened to the <12 gear steep hill.wav> file from that thread. It wasn't until a few days later on a 100 degree day here in Colorado on 91 (all that is available with out driving 30+ miles) that I heard the pinging, it was only audible because I knew what to listen for and had the radio off. Could it have been due to bad gas and the heat, who knows, but it happened today again for the second time. The first time I took it in to the dealer but it was not reproducible. Just didn't have time today.

I think SOA would want to check out each car first hand, otherwise they will might be replacing the engines of those ignorant to the fact later on down the road. Why wouldn't this be a recall?

I know it will all get worked out and I have owned a Subaru now for about five years since the first 98RS came out here in the states. So I am not too worried. I just wish there was a better solution than me dropping the STi off for several days. I have been happy with the STi since day one, worried a bit with all the det talk, but then again I think my det is minor in comparison to some.

Originally posted by Zeta

I think SOA would want to check out each car first hand,

Why? Why not just have the Ecu reflashed? How are they supposed to determine whether you experience det if you can't?
Do they use 91 octane or 94? Do they drive the car in 100 degree heat, put it on a dyno? Waste of time. Just have the Ecu reflashed.

The real issues then become:
Does the Ecu reflash work...for those who have problems, and does it reduce power and if so how much?

They need to measure crank hp with the Ecu reflash and release new hp numbers if need be. If there is no loss of power and torque then they also need to say so.....speculation will be rampant until they do.

Lastly they deserve credit for jumping on the problem fairly quickly, though I still wonder how this issue managed to slip thru quality control.

Lastly they deserve credit for jumping on the problem fairly quickly, though I still wonder how this issue managed to slip thru quality control.
This may not have slipped through Quality Control. In big business Production always has the last word on whether or not the product gets shipped.
Were there any reports of det./pinging in any of the magazine articles? How about all of the test drives in California where the highest octane is 91? Do you think the STi's had something other than 91 in them for the test?
Quality Control can only report the issues. They can interrupt production to down machinery for repairs, but there isn't any further power in the department concerning production.

Originally posted by deadbolt
Ya know, some of you guys are absolutely impossible to satisfy.

Some complained that the car didn't have a radio, then everyone was up in arms about the det issue, demanding an immediate fix, so SOA rushed to get it done, and now we still have people complaining about the "way" they are going about fixing it. :rolleyes:

If this is directed at my comment, I won't apologize for it. It's great that they're fixing the problem. It's still pretty inconvenient to have to leave your brand new car at the dealer's lot for several days while they mail your ECU out to be reflashed. If there's a problem, I think it's a much better customer service system to ship 20 or so floating ECU's out to dealers, which would allow them to replace the ECU's on the fly, then send that ECU back to be reflashed, and sent to the next car on the list.

Discussing the best way to handle these things is a great way to send SOA a message on how to best satisfy their customers. The cost of shipping these 20 ECU's out to set up a rotating system would be peanuts. And, once all of the cars have been reflashed, if they are so inclined, they could reclaim the 20 floating ECU's for new production, or keep them as inventory for replacements.

Like I said, I have a daily driver, so it doesn't inconvenience me too much to leave my new baby at the dealer for a week. There are a bunch of STi owners who don't have a smokin' hot 96 Altima(no flames, please:)) to drive in addition to the STi. This small gesture would really go a long way to developing owner trust and loyalty.

Problems happen, especially with brand new cars. The first run finds problems that can't be uncovered in prototyping, and I'm not complaining about that. But, the way these problems are handled is the very definition of customer service.

bottom line: it's great that they're fixing it. It would be even better if they made a slight change to their plan to get the fix to people faster, with less inconvenience.

Originally posted by Cndchronic
I've got roughly 2400 kms on my car now and heard quite a bit of pre det. Especialy under heavy boost ( 3rd, 4th gear and 60kph) the best I have up here is 92octane. Since I changed my intake the pre det seem to have disappered all together. Could be a combination of things but that intake is sure restricting. What a difference. Who Knows?

Which aftermarket intake are you now using? When you say, "what a difference", do you mean in performance or just the elimination of det.?

When the WRX reflash came about, some of the larger dealers sent in an ECM from stock to get reflashed and used it to give quick turnaround. I doubt that will happen with the STi because of thw low number per dealer.

I actually count being without the car for a few days as a minor inconvenience, given that I get a loaner.

Glenn -

Yes, a loaner definitely makes it a minor inconvenience, if every ECU reflash is given that treatment.

Why? Why not just have the Ecu reflashed? How are they supposed to determine whether you experience det if you can't?

I guess my point was that maybe SOA could hook up a listening device or sensor to detect/hear the det that is not easily audible. I agree that the ECU's should be reflashed.

I'll only take loaner if it is a Forester XT (2.5 Turbo). 13.8 quarter mile in a wagon sounds like fun.

I can understand why SOA may prefer to only have one ECU out for reflash - it's cheaper. SOA saves on materials and labor costs, and makes the dealers (some making a good profit on the STi, and others making a killing) fork over the money for loaner cars and warranty service.

If someone was making that much money off of my work product by adding a greasy handshake, smile, and possibly some undercoating, I would expect them to do the same thing. IMHO, the dealers should be forking over the cash to have SOA send them the equipment and software for reflashing the ECU. But hell is still on fire so that won't happen.

Originally posted by VVVV
IMHO, the dealers should be forking over the cash to have SOA send them the equipment and software for reflashing the ECU.

let me get this straight....you think the dealers should buy the equipment to reflash the defective ECU's because it's the dealer's fault somehow?

Sorry, but the dealers clearly aren't the guilty party here. No busting on Subaru, because it seems they're trying to handle the problem as best they can. But, it's clearly their problem, not the dealer's problem.

I would hope that Subaru is picking up the tab for the loaners, also, as this is not a dealership specific service issue, but rather a product line defect.

Originally posted by robmarch
bottom line: it's great that they're fixing it. It would be even better if they made a slight change to their plan to get the fix to people faster, with less inconvenience.

Here's my thought. It takes a while to get from the point of finding a fix and shifting production to actually start making fixed ECUs. Someone said they should have shipped out 20 instead of using one. Maybe it takes them a week or two to produce 20 (whether they have to retool the ecu production or they just have too much red tape). Well, would you rather wait those two weeks for every dealer to get one, or would you rather send in your ECU and have it done within one week?

For some people, they'd rather not have the car for a week if it means having it fixed in a week, instead of having to wait 2 weeks (or more) for their dealer to be able to do it. For those of you that think having your car in the shop for a week is too much, then just wait for a month or so until your dealer can do it locally.

Originally posted by robmarch


let me get this straight....you think the dealers should buy the equipment to reflash the defective ECU's because it's the dealer's fault somehow?

Sorry, but the dealers clearly aren't the guilty party here. No busting on Subaru, because it seems they're trying to handle the problem as best they can. But, it's clearly their problem, not the dealer's problem.

I would hope that Subaru is picking up the tab for the loaners, also, as this is not a dealership specific service issue, but rather a product line defect.

Sorry, I was a bit overzealous with the commentary. I don't believe the dealers should have to pay for an SOA mistake, I just understand why they would want to do it as cheaply as possible, especially when the pinging is not a universal issue.

It is no offense intended to you, but I am very biased against car dealers, just like I am against real estate agents. And I am even more disgusted by the fact that they make the most money on the cars that sell themselves, especially when you aren't allowed a test drive, which IMHO is the only reasonable purpose for dealers to exist in the first place. But this is a different rant for a different day, and I apologise for mentioning it in this thread.

So, as someone on Page 2 of this asked, and since I'm in a similar situation (waiting on my August STi delivery)

Are the new cars already flashed?
Or may we still have to take them in and get them reflashed (ver 1.2? 2.0? whatver) *IF* they show signs of detonation?

When they do the PDI, you can ask them to check the ECM version with the SSM. If it is not the latest, then they can schedule you for an update.

I talked to my dealer today and they said they will do the reflash only if the check engine light comes on. =(

Jeez guys, get a grip. Every dealer has the ability to flash ECM updates in some capacity. The key problem is that there is only ONE flash cartridge in the country to perform such an update. It's not a matter of purchasing the equipment... the dealerships already own the equipment. The software is simply not available to execute the flash, for a variety of reasons.

I'm simply amazed that Subaru is offering a flash update at all. We should be down on our knees thanking them profusely, not bitching about the wait or the way things are being handled.

Remember, in order to offer such an update, that update has to be tested and approved through the NHTSA and the EPA before it can be released. Any change to the emissions control on a vehicle has to be completely retested by the government and get its rubber stamp before it can be released to the public. The legal ramifications of such a change are mindboggling in their scope. It's absolutely incredible that Subaru has been able to respond to this issue as rapidly as they have done.

-Porter

Originally posted by pbuckley
I talked to my dealer today and they said they will do the reflash only if the check engine light comes on. =(

thats bs. go call your regional serivce rep and complain. then go to a different dealer, because the previous one will probably beat the p*ss out of your car when you bring it in next.

sorry to the dealers out there, but c'mon- you wonder why dealers have a bad rap? seriously...

Originally posted by Porter


I'm simply amazed that Subaru is offering a flash update at all. We should be down on our knees thanking them profusely, not bitching about the wait or the way things are being handled.

Do you work for Subaru? The way you defend them, it seems like it. Sorry, but I'm not amazed in the slightest. SOA isn't stupid, they've obviously had hundreds of complaints. It's in their best interest to scramble like never before in order to resolve the issue and minimize the potential damage that could result if word gets out to the media/public that these cars have a problem. No, I am not amazed a company wants to avoid catastrophe or at least serious financial harm.

Originally posted by Porter


Remember, in order to offer such an update, that update has to be tested and approved through the NHTSA and the EPA before it can be released. Any change to the emissions control on a vehicle has to be completely retested by the government and get its rubber stamp before it can be released to the public. The legal ramifications of such a change are mindboggling in their scope. It's absolutely incredible that Subaru has been able to respond to this issue as rapidly as they have done.

-Porter

Nope, my mind isn't boggled one bit. After realizing (...maybe 4-6 weeks ago?) that there was indeed a real problem, SOA probably started to scramble then. It probably took them 2-30 hours to design a remap of the ECM. The rest of this time was probably spent with NHTSA and EPA, approving the remap.

The only time a big business company will scramble harder is if there is a safety issue. But either way, it's all about money...and nothing that we should be down on our knees thanking them for. They have their own best interest in mind.

And like Ford had to in case of the Cobra ('00 or '01 model year?), when the car only made about 305 hp instead of the advertised 320 - they had to do a recall to provide a bunch of new parts...throttle body, chip...someone help me here, what else? Anyway, I'm willing to bet that the remap doesn't affect power, otherwise, they'll have to do the same as Ford. Myself, I bought the car specifically because it has all of 300 hp.

It may well be that the car makes less power on 91 but then the figures I believe were quoted for >= 93 AKI.

In any event, not living somewhere where I can fill up on 93 or 94 every day, I would prefer the durability.

STiBro,,How long have you been around the Subaru community?I think what Porter is saying is,,this is damn fast for Subaru and I agree with him.As many of us know Subaru has a history of dragging their feet on issues like this that goes way back.For them to step up this fast with a fix or even admit that there is a problem is a pleasent surprise.
I do agree that the initial plan here for the reflash is inconveniant to some and yeah it's a new car yada yada,,but hey it's better then waiting 4 years to find out the clutch you replaced and payed for in your RS,,,,,,, is now covered under warranty:furious:
my two cents
Rudy:D

I agree that this is pretty fast response time, probably aided by the fact that Subaru is a pretty small company, with a well focused group dedicated to the STi.

I'm nitpicking the delivery strategy, but I think the quick response is commendable.

No, I don't work for SoA. All I'm trying to point out is that for Subaru to change the ECM programming and get it approved by the EPA so rapidly is amazing. Changes that go through the EPA approval process are infamous for their delay times, often more than half a year in the process, and sometimes longer than that. Realize that if Subaru changed something in the engine management system and it later was shown to negatively affect emissions in any way, Subaru could (and would) be charged up to $10,000 per car in fines from the federal government. If something like that happened, there would probably be no more STi.

In the past I've been one of Subaru's biggest critics, over the years I have accused them of dropping the ball on all kinds of things, for example the old threads on the ABS problem in the WRX. But in this case, I think they've stepped up and done the right thing. It's nice to see forthright response like this from a company that doesn't have a perfect track record of responding to owner complaints. It makes me feel pretty good about owning one myself, and helps justify the efforts that I (and many of us who were around from before the Impreza-RS.com days) have made over the years to promote the ownership experience in the enthusiast community.

It was the '99 Model year. They messed it up so bad they didn't have a 2000 model for the Cobra. They got it almost right in 2001 by increasing the compression ratio, among other things. Guess what, it caused pinging!!!!

They never did anything about it. I should know, I have one. It pings under load in 3rd. Not bad and not all the time. Some guys had melted/pitted pistons. Ford just handled them on a case by case basis. What subaru is doing is great!

Porter or deadbolt, supposedly one can log into Subarunet, scroll down the left side of the screen to 'Service' and then select 'Control Unit Reprogramming' from the dropdown box and this will open and allow you access to tables that will list reprogramming availability. I was curious whether there is any entry for the STi there yet and, if so, what does its description say?

Does anyone know if the tuners (Vishnu, and the like) are getting there STi's fixed? I am sure once they get it done they will be able to compare dyno runs and verify what changes were made. It would be nice to hear from some of them as to how long this might take.

J

Glen...

Can you PM me or email me when you have a chance. I called and talk to bill at Carter and he said there is no reflash and since was not satisfied with that he kindly suggested I call 1800Subaru3.

I did that and spoke to a customer service agant with SOA who denies very firmly that there is any such reflash available. He said that I am the third person to call today and that there is no reflash period and that if their was he and his collegues would know about it.

He said that what is on the web is "garbage" and can never be considered as reliable. Why does this have to be such a battle.

Glenn if you have an appointment, why can't I even get an awknowledgement that the reflash exists?

Garret
World One

Oh lord....say that isn't so....... :rolleyes:

here we go...

I hate to say this, but I got pretty much the same response from my dealer and from SOA. I was unable to get a formal admission of a det/knock problem from SOA or from my dealer. Everyone I have spoken to (dealer/SOA) says that this is the first they are hearing of the problem.

I called my dealer Tuesday and the service manager hadn't heard of any reflash so he said he'd call SOA to see what's up. Called me back the next day and set me up with an appointment in early August. He said that someone from SOA will be there to look at the car. He didn't deny or confirm anything about a reflash. I'll just have to wait and see what happens...

I believe that Porter orginally posted that you need to take the car into your dealer and follow the proper chains. I doubt subaru is going to let someone just call up and say oh reflash my ecu. With out first having the problem reported through the proper channels. They want to save what money they can i am sure. And are doing this reflash on a case by case basis.

That's completely understandable. However, no one at SOA or the dealership has even admitted that some of the STis MAY have a problem with det/knock and that there is a fix available IF your car has a problem. The person I spoke to (no names just yet) at SOA said they have not heard of any problems with det/knock on the STis at all......service manager told me the same thing.

Well, here's my story..... I talked to my customer rep at 1800subaru3 and they DID confirm that there is a ECU reflash ready to go. They told me that they would try to set something up with my regional rep guy. I got this email from him:

---------
News must travel fast. Fuji Industries, our parent company, have sent us a
reprogramming cartridge to determine if this will resolve U.S. concerns.
Cherry Hills, our national headquarters, is determining if this
reprogramming will be suitable for the U.S. market. I presume this means it
if will pass EPA and any other governmental standards. I believe that we
are testing the programs on a few vehicles and I am waiting to hear if this
reprogramming solves the concerns and if there are any side effects.
Hopefully, I will know something within two weeks. If all goes well, I will
request that your ecm is reflashed. If there are side effects, I will let
you know and then you can determine if you wish to have the ecm
reprogrammed.

As a follow up, have you tried using BP/Amoco high octane gas? Try running
at least two full tanks and let me know. I was speaking to a car
enthusiastic and that is what he recommended based on his experience with
his high performance vehicles.
------

So what's the real deal? Is the reflash not ready for us yet? Are they still testing it? For those who have det and haven't brought the car into the dealer for the rep to hear it, don't expect to just walk in and get a reflash right away.... sounds like they want to confirm the problem on the car before they do anything.... so there's even more incentive for people to bring those cars into the dealer NOW!

orthojoe

Originally posted by orthojoe

As a follow up, have you tried using BP/Amoco high octane gas? Try running
at least two full tanks and let me know. I was speaking to a car
enthusiastic and that is what he recommended based on his experience with
his high performance vehicles.
------

orthojoe

Interesting, I was jsut at my MB dealer for service on my 01 C320, when I mentioned to my service advisor about a "stumbling" episode on my car, off the bat he told me to use only BP/ Amoco or Sunoco super unleaded. Apparently, other gas causes carbon buildup but not the mentioned gas company.

This guy has been my advisor for a long time, so he knows what he's talking about.

I called and talk to bill at Carter

That was your first mistake.

and he said there is no reflash and since was not satisfied with that he kindly suggested I call 1800Subaru3.

Either take the car to Chaplins (talk to Nikki and you won't have to go through all of this hoo-haw) or if you must go to Carter than ask "Bill" to call "Larry T" to get confirmation.

Glenn

i got no det at all it sucks for people out west putting piss in there tanks now being detuned going rob some power.

:banana: BIG dong

Originally posted by bigdong123
i got no det at all it sucks for people out west putting piss in there tanks now being detuned going rob some power.

:banana: BIG dong

punctuation might help reduce the "tire-grap" factor of this post.

If you're saying that the people who are using lower octane gas will lose power after the reflash...I'm not sure if that's true. The ECU already reduces power to deal with inferior octane gas. I'm sure the people who are already having their power reduced by the ECU for using the inferior gas would rather have no pinging for their trouble, though.

If, on the other hand, the point you were eloquently trying to make was that people who aren't getting pinging would lose power with the reflash, that is possible, but not required. I would rather lose a little bit of power to eliminate the ping, but I haven't experienced it yet. If you would rather not take the chance, don't get your ECU reflashed, and take your chances with the DET.

Have a good one.

Originally posted by bigdong123
i got no det at all it sucks for people out west putting piss in there tanks now being detuned going rob some power.

:banana: BIG dong

My car is pinging on 93/94....

Around here, BP/Amoco only has 91 octane. Tesoro, I have found to be much better gas (at least in my WRX). It is rated 92 octane, but it seemed to run much more timing than other 92 octane brands (at least around here). I have not run anything but Tesoro in my STi, except while traveling. Maybe I should try the "lower octane" 91 Amoco rather than the "tried and trues" 92 Tesoro??

What about higher octane ethynol blends?

Too bad California doen't use the gas we get here from Holiday. It is called Blue Planet (http://www.blueplanetgas.com/default.htm) and it's supposed to meet 2006 requirements for emissions (isn't that what Cali is using now?), and it is available in 93. This is the gas I use, exclusively, unless travelling (it also happens to be one of very few places offering 93, locally). I have not heard any pinging, nor have I heard of anyone in MN pinging (not implying nobody is, just haven't heard a report). That may be related to the climate here, although we have been in the 90s more than usual this year and our humidity is always high (too many lakes!). Well, that's my $0.02

Christian

Originally posted by Chin
Too bad California doen't use the gas we get here from Holiday. It is called Blue Planet (http://www.blueplanetgas.com/default.htm) and it's supposed to meet 2006 requirements for emissions (isn't that what Cali is using now?), and it is available in 93.The Blue Planet gas only meets future Fed requirements for maximum sulfur content. California gas already meets those Fed sulfur requirements but California has additional formulation requirements.

Ahh, interesting.

Christian

I am going to have an appointment to have my ECU reflashed via Gwinnett Subarau next week. One guy already had it done and should have his back monday or tuesday. i don't know why everyone else is not getting the news. But I will let you know how it goes when I get mine back.

Dan

THis isn't strictly factual, but not speculation - just a reminder for the folks who are getting a touch panicky about this all....

If you'll recall, a few years ago Ford had a little car called the Mustang Cobra that had a little intake restriction problem, which resulted in power figures about 15 hp below what was advertised. There was a huge legal flap over it, a class-action lawsuit, and an "intake swap" program that Ford imlemented to fix the problem and get the power back to where it should have been.

Now, do you really think Subaru would make the same mistake? The power numbers are what got a lot of us in the door on these STi's. To turn around and drop the numbers would be tantamount to false advertising, which is what caused the row with Ford.

I'm not worried, myself. But then, I have access to 93-octane gas, and I've only gotten the detonation when I've had low-octane fuel in it. Of the 5 tanks of gas I've had, only one has been fully 93-octane, and I don't recall the detonation.

As for road trips, however, remember that this is generally only happening at WOT. Isn't that right? If so, solution: keep your foot out of it a bit until you can get to some decent fuel, or use the toluene solution. Home Depot's gotta carry it, and they're everywhere.

Just a couple of thoughts, FWIW.

Originally posted by Soon2bSubbieowner
4 - 6 Days for the techs to rape your cars on the road while "testing":rolleyes:

(1) All "testing" should be done with you in the car. Take the service manager along

(2) Tell the service manager you don't want more than x miles put on the car, or else.

This is how I handle repairs on my car after a tech put 33 miles on my WRX :rolleyes:

Originally posted by spool1536
I hate to say this, but I got pretty much the same response from my dealer and from SOA. I was unable to get a formal admission of a det/knock problem from SOA or from my dealer. Everyone I have spoken to (dealer/SOA) says that this is the first they are hearing of the problem.

Guys...

Face it.

They are going to fix the problem without admitting it ever existed if they can get away with it.

I usually get angry about this kind of stuff so I'm surprised at myself for saying this, but as long as you get your car fixed and don't get robbed of power, isn't that enough?

Originally posted by dlowman
I am going to have an appointment to have my ECU reflashed via Gwinnett Subarau next week. One guy already had it done and should have his back monday or tuesday. i don't know why everyone else is not getting the news. But I will let you know how it goes when I get mine back.

Dan


What?? Someone has already had their ECM shipped?? Why is my rep telling me i have to wait at least 2 weeks before the possibility of getting my ECM reflashed? Time to make some more calls again....

orthojoe

Guys, calm down. It may take two weeks to get your ECM flashed, it may take longer than that. It's not really a life or death thing either way, you people need to chill out.

To clarify: I got some slightly erroneous information. What I was told was correct, they DO have a fix. What they DON'T have yet is an efficient process to take in the ECUs from the dealer network and turn them around in a rapid fashion. Since there is only ONE cartridge with which to flash the incoming ECUs, it's a slow process. It may take a few weeks for everything to get sorted out, but be patient and it will come.


Chill out and stop stressing about it..... Have a beer or something and calm down. :D

You guys look like this: :furious:

When you should look like this: :cool:

:D


If anybody wants to talk to me (or complain at me) in person, PM me and I'll send you my phone number. You're more than welcome to give me a ring anytime.

Originally posted by Porter
To clarify: I got some slightly erroneous information. What I was told was correct, they DO have a fix. What they DON'T have yet is an efficient process to take in the ECUs from the dealer network and turn them around in a rapid fashion. Since there is only ONE cartridge with which to flash the incoming ECUs, it's a slow process. It may take a few weeks for everything to get sorted out, but be patient and it will come.

:banana:

He's dead on, a little more time.

Shaun

Take a chill pill and dump a gallon or two of Toluene in your gas tank. Can you say ping be gone?

Right on....

The good news is the ball is rolling for a fix. Now let's all just wait until the ball rolls our way.

;)

Thanks Porter for all of your help!

Wonder when everyone will figure out that their normal WRX's do the same thing... The ECU ignores knock in high rev ranges guys... It just keeps adding on timing because it's just plugging it's ears to the knock. ;)

I talked to my service manager about 10 min ago, he advised about the fix, wanted to know if I wanted to schedule an appointment.

I told him I needed information on the fix prior to making an appointment, regarding what the fix included and what effect it has on HP and TQ.

He said he would contact SOA and see what he could find out.

Originally posted by crazyhorse
Wonder when everyone will figure out that their normal WRX's do the same thing... The ECU ignores knock in high rev ranges guys... It just keeps adding on timing because it's just plugging it's ears to the knock. ;)

Yes, and there's an existing reflash for that as well, since last year sometime. Only some vehicles exhibit this, if your vehicle pings, bring it to the dealer. It's all pretty straightforward. :)

Originally posted by Revolutions Motorsports
Take a chill pill and dump a gallon or two of Toluene in your gas tank. Can you say ping be gone?

Careful when giving out such vague advice...there's a little more involved. One can only safely mix up to a 30% mix of toluene or xylene into pump gas. And add 1 oz of Marvels Mystery oil/gal of either of the aforementioned is recommended. Both of these are very "dry"...the MMO helps keeps seals from drying and cracking.

Personally, I'm running a 94 octane mix: 1.5 gal xylene (117 octane) and 1.5 oz MMO with 11.5 gal 91 octane. This is safe to use in a daily driver.

Originally posted by STiBro


Careful when giving out such vague advice...there's a little more involved. One can only safely mix up to a 30% mix of toluene or xylene into pump gas. And add 1 oz of Marvels Mystery oil/gal of either of the aforementioned is recommended. Both of these are very "dry"...the MMO helps keeps seals from drying and cracking.

Personally, I'm running a 94 octane mix: 1.5 gal xylene (117 octane) and 1.5 oz MMO with 11.5 gal 91 octane. This is safe to use in a daily driver.
Sucks to be in California... many places on the east coast you can buy 94 octane at the pump as the "premium" fuel for no real increase in cost.

Originally posted by Porter

Sucks to be in California...

Yeah, it's one of the drawbacks of living in this God aweful state. Of course, I lived in Boston for a few months and yes, Sunoco 94 was available. I'll stay here and mix up my 94 octane fuel (w/xylene) for what works out to be $2.15/gal at today's gas price.

does anyone know how much it would cost to just order an ecu for the sti? i would assume it would have the new "non-detonation" programming. that way, someone would be able to say for certain if the new program affects power or not. a simple back to back dyno pull would tell all.

or just trade in the overrated sti for a lancer evo.

Or maybe trade in that overrated EVO for an SRT4.

Then an SRT4 for a bus pass.:banana:

For the last 3500 miles, no pinging at all. Just this morning, I heard it ping mildly twice. The car had been running for 40 mins, then shutdown and sat in the sun for about an hour, so the engine and intercooler was plenty hot. Drove for 3 minutes to cool the car down, stopped pinging.

I guess I should get in line for the reflash.. :(

Originally posted by hatchy
For the last 3500 miles, no pinging at all. Just this morning, I heard it ping mildly twice. The car had been running for 40 mins, then shutdown and sat in the sun for about an hour, so the engine and intercooler was plenty hot. Drove for 3 minutes to cool the car down, stopped pinging.

I guess I should get in line for the reflash.. :(

Looks like you haven't been following the pinging problem threads much. Only some of the STi's have a serious pinging problem that merits a reflash. If that's the first time you've heard it, and it's mild, then mostly likely there's absolutely nothing wrong with your car. Those with the problem probably have a too aggressive knock/learn programming. Your's is probably "just right", where it advances timing enough to detect a little knock.

The reflash may end up being exactly like what you have currently.

Originally posted by STiBro
Those with the problem probably have a too aggressive knock/learn programming. All US STi's have the exact same program flashed into their ECU's ROM.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
All US STi's have the exact same program flashed into their ECU's ROM.

That's what I would have guessed, which bums me out. Because it tells me that those STi's that are knocking, have another problem...not with the ECU. Like a knock sensor, or ? So if we deduce that it's not the ECU, why are they reflashing it? Answer me that.

Just FYI, mine knocked moderately between 4K and 4.5K rpms on 91 octane. With my xylene mix for a 94 octane fuel, I have zero knock.

Umm, no, I have been following this since it was first reported, but have never experienced it until this morning. I've had my car since May. I just figured I got lucky.


Originally posted by STiBro


Looks like you haven't been following the pinging problem threads much. Only some of the STi's have a serious pinging problem that merits a reflash. If that's the first time you've heard it, and it's mild, then mostly likely there's absolutely nothing wrong with your car. Those with the problem probably have a too aggressive knock/learn programming. Your's is probably "just right", where it advances timing enough to detect a little knock.

The reflash may end up being exactly like what you have currently.

Originally posted by hatchy
Umm, no, I have been following this since it was first reported, but have never experienced it until this morning. I've had my car since May. I just figured I got lucky.

Not really - under the right circumstances (or should that be wrong?), nearly any car will ping/knock. The problem isn't that it pinged, the problem is whether or not the ECU dealt with it correctly. It sounds like it did, if it went away. Your description of the circumstances of the ping would lead me to believe that even the best operating engine/ecu would have done exactly the same thing...

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

Here's my story...
Bought the car in SLC, UT, drove it home for the break in period. Went out about two nights after I got home to have some fun. Then and now I am experiencing pinging at about 4300. It's not very loud, but it is noticeable. I told the service department at my local dealer and he said he knew nothing about it. I also called SOA...same story. It does it most of the time, and it is always at 4200-4300. I've tried 93 & 91. Those are my only choices here in OK. I'm taking the car in as soon as I can to have one of the techs ride along. It's just pissing me off.

Doesn't bother me, since it only happened twice in 3500 miles of driving and only when the car is totally heat soaked. Oh, and the other change was a tank of Shell gas instead of Chevon (what I normally get, from the same station).

I am hoping that the reflash will make the ECU a little smarter--don't advance to X degrees if A, B, C are true.. and then remember what the A, B, C values were!

Originally posted by shirokuma


Not really - under the right circumstances (or should that be wrong?), nearly any car will ping/knock. The problem isn't that it pinged, the problem is whether or not the ECU dealt with it correctly. It sounds like it did, if it went away. Your description of the circumstances of the ping would lead me to believe that even the best operating engine/ecu would have done exactly the same thing...

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

just picked up my car.

pinged on the first day

not sure if they put in bad gas.. i ll try 76 100 octane first
if it still pings

i am in line for a reflash..


is this the correct procedure?

1. call up dealer. report problem
2. schedule a run w/ a manager. show him the pings.
3. call up regional reps?


my car pinged really bad.

It pinged on the first day?

I've not seen anybody report that it pings below 4k rpm and at less than full throttle.

Originally posted by RichQY
just picked up my car.

pinged on the first day

not sure if they put in bad gas.. i ll try 76 100 octane first
if it still pings

i am in line for a reflash..


is this the correct procedure?

1. call up dealer. report problem
2. schedule a run w/ a manager. show him the pings.
3. call up regional reps?


my car pinged really bad.

Originally posted by RichQY
just picked up my car.

pinged on the first day



So it sounds like you did a WOT blast on the car, without a break-in? You're motor will not last. You're supposed to Grand-Ma it for the first 1K miles!

I noticed that my car will ping on anything below 94. And mind you, I only "hear" pinging on 91, but if it is 93, I don't hear any pinging (maybe my ears are not that great), but, fortunately, I have the knocklink hooked up, so, I would see flashing yellow and briefly-flashing white LED (knock)... However, the det must be small so that it is not audible over the engine noise. For 94 gas, no LED is lighted up at all--only the first green LED is lighted up occasionally (for all 4 of my WOT runs through 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear). This is the way it SHOULD be!

So, for those of you who think that their car does not ping, because you don't hear it, you may want to recheck, because the pinging may be small enough that it gets drowned out by the engine noise.

BTW, anyone comming back with a reflash from Subaru yet? Please post results!:)

Originally posted by wolverine
I
So, for those of you who think that their car does not ping, because you don't hear it, you may want to recheck, because the pinging may be small enough that it gets drowned out by the engine noise.


Ok... this is over the top. This qualifies as full blown hysteria.

When folks were talking about loud pinging for 2 to 4 seconds during a blast of WOT up a hill, I thought... ok... so it might be a minor problem.

Then people started complaining about a ping or two on WOT throttle between 4k and 4.2k rpm, I thought... people are being a bit oversensitive about this.

Now we have someone instilling fear over inaudible pinging!!! Give me a break, you guys have lost it. Straight jackets for everyone, please. Make mine extra tight. :furious:

We'll save the argument about just how much pre-ignition is good and how much you must have before you do any damage for another time. But let's be clear that the knock sensor and KnockLink do NOT really measure knock. The knock sensor is a small weight attached to a peizo element attached to the motor. It just makes electricity when it encounters vibration. The knock sensor simply measures vibration and there is a LOT of vibration in a high performance motor/car.

I don't know much about the KnockLink and I didn't find a technical description on their website (suspicious). If the KnockLink reports every signal as knock, it's making a lot of errors. If it has an algorithm for determining what is and what isn't knock, then it's making a lot of errors, too, because it's an ADD-ON and not tuned to the particular sensor or sensor location. I'm not saying that the tool doesn't have it's place, I'm just saying that I wouldn't take it's word on 'inaudible knock' and get all bent out of shape over it.

There are people posting on this board who are very capable of having academic discussions of subtle details around these issues and there are the hysterical ones and those out to make a buck or two from them.

Somebody please give that left strap on my straightjacket another tug. I can still wiggle a bit. Thanks!

Originally posted by martiandl
Then an SRT4 for a bus pass.:banana:

Hey, don't insult my bus pass.

KoneKiller,

I am no automechanics, but facts show me that with 94 gas, I don't get any warning signal from the knocklink, while with 93 gas, I do (yes, all the leds lit!)--even though I could not hear it (maybe too much loud mp3 music at work :)). So, you tell me, what gives? What is the expected behavior?

We got our first reflashed ECM back from Subaru yesterday. We reinstalled it in the car and everything seems A-OK. No discernable loss in power, in fact quite the opposite. Everything seems good. I'll report more once the customer has driven the vehicle.

Well I got my car yesterday. Drove around a bit and did a VERY brief 3rd gear WOT from 3500-4400rpm and the FIRST time I did it I heard about 2 audiable pings at about 4200rpm and then nothing. For the next 20 minutes I did the same thing in 3rd and/or 4th gear and never heard anything else in about 10 times of trying to induce it. I did feel an almost imperceptable dip in power at 4200rpm so it seems like it learned.

I am going to construct a very lengthy/informational email for the owner of the dealership and reference any/all info on the web on this issue since he has not heard about it yet.

Now keep in mind:
-this is on a tank of gas that the dealership put in so who knows the quality of the gas.
-This is at 6000ft above sea level where I thought we wouldn't have this problem due to the fact we are running 3.5psi less boost from atmospheric losses.
-It only pinged semi-audiably 2 to 2.5 times and only happened once = I am not worried about it since it was the FIRST time I took it over 4000rpm (and just barely at that).
-I am going to fill it up with 93 after this tank is done and see what happens from there.

Overall I am not too worried at this point but I still wouldn't mind a reflash for the 1-2 times I go to Arizona with thier CA like 91 crap gas.

Time will tell.

Please wait until after your break-in period to approach the dealer about this issue. Wait until you have developed a routine of operation and an extensive degree of familiarity with the behavior of the motor before attempting any type of claim on this issue.

Originally posted by Porter
We got our first reflashed ECM back from Subaru yesterday. We reinstalled it in the car and everything seems A-OK. No discernable loss in power, in fact quite the opposite. Everything seems good. I'll report more once the customer has driven the vehicle.


Hey Porter,

Is there anyway we can get something from SOA regarding the context of the re-flash?

I am very interested what they did to correct the issue. I am in the process of checking here in Phoenix if someone wants to go halves on a before and after re-flash at the AWD Dyno in town.

I would really like some facts and data before getting the re-flash.

Originally posted by Porter
We got our first reflashed ECM back from Subaru yesterday. We reinstalled it in the car and everything seems A-OK. No discernable loss in power, in fact quite the opposite. Everything seems good. I'll report more once the customer has driven the vehicle.

Thanks, Porter. Please keep us posted!

Your point is certainly valid and given the option, I'd run 94+ in it all the time. It IS after all, a high performance motor.

So, the knocklink raises two questions:

1. What level of pre-ignition is meaningful?

There are 'purists' who will tell you that any pre-ignition is harmful, because it raises pressures, etc. There are 'purists' who will tell you that every well-tuned internal combustion engine pings, even if it's inaudible. I think we will all agree that massive knocking (massive enough to feel it in the seat of the pants) is a death knell for a motor. FWIW, I'm in the 'a little ping is ok, camp.'

2. What does the knocklink detect and how does it do it?

Is your knocklink wired to the stock crystal? Or do you have a seperate crystal for it? Either way, is it located/tuned/calibrated/filtered/processed/interpreted in a way that makes the data meaningful? If I was getting the 'white' signal in the absence of audible knock, I'd wonder if it was valid information. But again, I haven't seen any technical information on the processing algorithms of the Knocklink. My guess is that they are pretty liberal in their definition of 'knock.' If a lot of people didn't 'detect knock' with this device, they wouldn't recommend it to their friends.

The reason I need a straightjacket is that it's so very, very clear that Subaru intended for this car to ping. It's not an accident, or a mistake from an engineering standpoint. It was an engineering choice STi made, but I think they misunderstood the tolerances of the buyers of this car. The expected behavior of this car on 93 octane is to ping. I don't see how Subaru could have been more clear about this -- it is written in the owner's manual! <shrug>

|Step away from my car with that reflash unit and no one gets hurt!| :lol: :D:

Originally posted by wolverine
KoneKiller,

I am no automechanics, but facts show me that with 94 gas, I don't get any warning signal from the knocklink, while with 93 gas, I do (yes, all the leds lit!)--even though I could not hear it (maybe too much loud mp3 music at work :)). So, you tell me, what gives? What is the expected behavior?

Originally posted by KoneKiller

Is your knocklink wired to the stock crystal? Or do you have a seperate crystal for it?

Mine is connected to a Bosche knock sensor; the receiving unit is, of course, the knocklink. I don't have any technical info on this device, but it is probably some op-amp type bypass filter with an A/D (Analog-to-Digital) converter to display the analog signal into an array of LED's.

Originally posted by wolverine


Mine is connected to a Bosche knock sensor; the receiving unit is, of course, the knocklink. I don't have any technical info on this device, but it is probably some op-amp type bypass filter with an A/D (Analog-to-Digital) converter to display the analog signal into an array of LED's.

The input voltage from the peizo is probably pretty high, so it might not need much amplification. The real question in my mind is what sort of signal processing is being done to weed out other forms of vibration from knock. Part of this is intrinsic to the mass of the sensor weight, but part of it has to be in the detector.

The simplest way would be to simply convert the voltage signal into a graded LED response, a la a VU meter. That really wouldn't be very useful, but it would be easy.

A better solution would be to detect frequency distribution, duration, intensity, etc, but our cost and sophistication just went out the roof. The ECU does just this. Some people are looking at the amount of knock retard to get a sense of what the ECU is seeing, by usings the SECS monitor.

It would be interesting to see how the knocklink and SECS correlate.

In any case, it's interesting to contemplate, for sure, but the real issue is whether the motor cares about the ping as much as the 'ping detector' does. My guess is the motor can handle a lot more ping than you are willing to listen to.

I go in tomorrow to have my ECU reflashed. I will let you guys know next week what I think about it.

I don't have any technical info on this device, but it is probably some op-amp type bypass filter with an A/D (Analog-to-Digital) converter to display the analog signal into an array of LED's.

My question would be is it (it being the knocklink, or any aftermarket sensor for that matter) filtered in the digital domain (via a DSP) or is it a simple analog bandpass filter? I do believe that the stock Subaru sensor is at least partially analog as there are fixes to settle the knock activity on earlier Subarus and that was done by adding passive components to change the bandpass frequency. However, I have read that it only looks for activity in certain RPM ranges which I would suppose is a digital function carried out by the ECU. Does the knocklink account for the same factors? Is the knocklink filtering out different frequencies? I would expect a iron block and an aluminum block to have different frequency characteristics, for example (although it may be insignifcant). Is the knocklink ignoring signal above a given RPM? Is the stock ECU? If so, are they the same RPM? There are numerous variables here that must be answered before one can reliably count on an aftermarket sensor.

Just stirring up the pot a bit....

Christian

guys, the knocklink has been used on Impreza engines for a long time. It is very well understood now.

You should never use the OEM knock sensor to trigger this as it reduces the knock signal to the ECU.

The SECS is just displaying what the ECU see's, and the ECU goes deaf with regards to high RPM knock. the knocklink is displaying what the bosche sensor see's and doesnt miss high RPM knock.

You should mount the bosche sensor directly onto the engine block, not onto the inlet manifold.

http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/WaterInjection/DCP06502.JPG

Set the knocklink sensitity to max.

It is normal on the STi engines to see both green lights flicker under load, at max revs you may see the two yellows flickering, but if the big red led lights you have definately got Det and you should back off.

My Knocklink and charge temp display (the charge temp display is also a temperature trigger for my water injection system which is triggered when boost and charge temp are in the correct ranges)

http://www.btinternet.com/~john.felstead/WaterInjection/DCP06499.JPG

Originally posted by johnfelstead
guys, the knocklink has been used on Impreza engines for a long time. It is very well understood now.

You should never use the OEM knock sensor to trigger this as it reduces the knock signal to the ECU.

The SECS is just displaying what the ECU see's, and the ECU goes deaf with regards to high RPM knock. the knocklink is displaying what the bosche sensor see's and doesnt miss high RPM knock.

You should mount the bosche sensor directly onto the engine block, not onto the inlet manifold.

That's where I have my knock sensor mounted, thanks to someone here on the forum (PunkWRX, I think) to point it out for me. I figure if there is some problem with the stock knock sensor, I can count on my independent sensor... Simple logics: Eliminate as many variables/unknowns as possible in your experiment!

if you share the OEM knock sensor with the knocklink you increase det and you dont display it either! Think about that!

no, no , no ,no you guys are WRONG AGAIN!!!!

Like you guys said, this has been discussed many times... in short this is what you need...

- Use either a used or new subaru sensor, go to subaruparts.com and get a subaru knock sensor, for the STi, get the STi sensor.

- Do not use the supplied BOSH sensor nor the factory installed one. The BOSH microphone/sensor might be tuned to different frequency (aka, diferent motor, displacement, etc.) and if you tap into the stock one you will reduce accuracy or induce static noise.

- Set the KnockLink to MAX sensitivity and wire it up. MAKE SURE you run the provided shield wire all the way up to were you join it with the actual knock sensor (to protect the line against static noise). You might need to make ur own connectors to mate the knock sensor to the Knocklink harness.

- When you install the knock sensor in the extra BOSS shown in the above pic. on the engine block it must must at a 60 degree angle from the rear fo the car towards the passenger side. If you look at the factory sensor you will see it's wire is 60 degrees towards the passenger.

___________Firewall____________o_______ <-- Cabin Hole
..................................0^
...........................Stock New
............................\\60^\\60^
|------------90^----\\----\\-------------| Engine Block
|.............................O......O............ .....| Knock sensor(s)
|...................|Intercooler|................. ...|

*** Sorry for the mis-alignment, damm spaces.

- On the STi, there is a metal braket in the BOSS provided that holds 1 of the coolant lines for the Throttle Body, I just mounted mine on top of the braket and used a longer bolt (like the intercooler bolt). It might reduce accuracy/sensitivity but I still get red knock lights at WOT between 4-5k rpms. So it seems to be working properly.

i hope you arent trying to tell me i have the instalation wrong zacek, because if you are, you are wrong.

John - Could you PM the details on your temp gauge when you have the time.

Thanks in advance,

Shaun

Originally posted by Porter
We got our first reflashed ECM back from Subaru yesterday. We reinstalled it in the car and everything seems A-OK. No discernable loss in power, in fact quite the opposite. Everything seems good. I'll report more once the customer has driven the vehicle.

How many days total to get it back?

Originally posted by johnfelstead
guys, the knocklink has been used on Impreza engines for a long time. It is very well understood now.

You should never use the OEM knock sensor to trigger this as it reduces the knock signal to the ECU.

The SECS is just displaying what the ECU see's, and the ECU goes deaf with regards to high RPM knock. the knocklink is displaying what the bosche sensor see's and doesnt miss high RPM knock.

Set the knocklink sensitity to max.

It is normal on the STi engines to see both green lights flicker under load, at max revs you may see the two yellows flickering, but if the big red led lights you have definately got Det and you should back off.



Ok... this raises more questions than answers.... Forgive my ignorance... but...

> Is the input impedance of the knocklink so low that it can drag down a peizo unit signal? Poor design?

> Why set the sensitivity at max? Has someone done a correlation between knock sensor sensitivity, knocklink sensitivity and combustion chamber pressures?

>The knock sensor is really just a microphone with poor frequency response. The reason ECU's are engineered to be 'deaf' to the knock sensor at high RPM is that regular engine noise is high enough to generate signal from the knock sensor in the absence of detonation. Does the knocklink have any algorithm to distinguish noise from knock? Given the 'flickering yellows' at high RPM, I'd surmise not.

The concept of high RPM knock is a bit odd to me. I'm sure we can create a circumstance where it can happen, but that isn't the usual way knock happens, it's usually low to mid RPM.

> If the knocklink shows full on detonation and it's not audible, which instrument is unreliable, the knocklink or the ear?

There is an old cliche in science: meaningful information always comes from meaningful data, but not all data are meaningful information.

Originally posted by KoneKiller


> If the knocklink shows full on detonation and it's not audible, which instrument is unreliable, the knocklink or the ear?

There is an old cliche in science: meaningful information always comes from meaningful data, but not all data are meaningful information.

In my case, I think the ear (well, mine) is unreliable:o Why? Because, like I said, if the knocklink is unreliable, it should show some activities on 94 gas as well; but it does NOT for several runs. For 93, however, there are occasions where even though I cannot hear it, the knocklink does show flashes of the knock LED.

I know, it is sometimes hard to discern what information is meaningful... To do so, you've got to have a controlled experiment like I did. I am very confident that what I see is knock (or vibration from the engine block, whatever you want to call it), may it be damaging or not, I don't know... But, it is definitely knock, and I don't get that with 94 octane.

Originally posted by wolverine


In my case, I think the ear (well, mine) is unreliable:o Why? Because, like I said, if the knocklink is unreliable, it should show some activities on 94 gas as well; but it does NOT for several runs. For 93, however, there are occasions where even though I cannot hear it, the knocklink does show flashes of the knock LED.

I know, it is sometimes hard to discern what information is meaningful... To do so, you've got to have a controlled experiment like I did. I am very confident that what I see is knock (or vibration from the engine block, whatever you want to call it), may it be damaging or not, I don't know... But, it is definitely knock, and I don't get that with 94 octane.

I agree, the 93/94 octane experience is compelling. I'm not concerned about a small amount of knock, even audible, but I do run the best fuel I can easily get (93) and haven't heard any significant knock to date, either on or off the track. <knock on wood> :D

Alot of people are saying they have det and I am a little concerned. Either I have been very lucky or I don't know what det sounds like because I have not experienced it. It has been 100+ degrees here in Portland and we have some of the crappiest gas in the country (92 if you believe their numbers but it is still crap quality). I had my car at the drag strip and it was well above 4k rm most of the time and I never heard det.

Does anyone know if there are any correlations with location in the country or what the percentages among owners are?

Would I feel det or just hear it and what would it sound like? I have only heard det in old cars when trying to shut the engine off not while it is running.

Originally posted by Burke
Alot of people are saying they have det and I am a little concerned. Either I have been very lucky or I don't know what det sounds like because I have not experienced it. It has been 100+ degrees here in Portland and we have some of the crappiest gas in the country (92 if you believe their numbers but it is still crap quality). I had my car at the drag strip and it was well above 4k rm most of the time and I never heard det.

Does anyone know if there are any correlations with location in the country or what the percentages among owners are?

Would I feel det or just hear it and what would it sound like? I have only heard det in old cars when trying to shut the engine off not while it is running.

My ilttle experience, I started getting det during acceleration at about 3200 miles, before that smooth as glass... now its like, "Did someone drop a bunch of bbs in my engine?"

Originally posted by Burke
I had my car at the drag strip and it was well above 4k rm most of the time and I never heard det.


If you go full-throttle well above 4K rpm, that's probably why you don't hear it. My experience shows that if I don't WOT between the 4k to 5k mark, and then WOT after 5k up to red-line, I don't get det either. It is only when I WOT at low rpms and keep it there until I hit 4K-5K range, that's when I get det.

Originally posted by Burke
Would I feel det or just hear it and what would it sound like? I have only heard det in old cars when trying to shut the engine off not while it is running.


I work part time at a 2WD Dyno. Det or Ping can sound very differnet depending on the appilcation. It can be best described as Pop-corn popping in an aluminum pan. Either high in pitch or low in pitch. It is very distinct.

Good Luck, hopefully you will never have to hear it!

Guys,
One guy I know of has already had the reflash done with no worries. Mine is being done as we speak. I should have it back on tuesday if all goes well. Till then I am in my loaner car courtesy of Porter at Gwinnett Subaru's.

Dan

Can I just take out the ECU and give it to the dealer for the reflash? I don't need a loaner and my car would be perfectly happy in sitting in my garage without a brain.

i seriously doubt the dealer will let you pull the ECU - that would be too easy, but they may have liability/warranty issues.

i finally brought mine (2600 miles now) in for the reflash - i had been running a mix of race gas (100 octane - from a 76 station) and 91 octane from chevron (tucson) which brought the octane up to 94. things were cool for ~2 weeks but today i got det bad and stopped by the dealer. no problem w/the tech reproducing the det. they'll give me a loaner for a few days while they send it (the ECU) back to cherry hill or wherever.

the SOA dude onsite said the the ECU will relearn w/the higher octane gas and det will come back - it did. he also said the diff disable thing in the ebrake was BS...

i mentioned that some ppl on the 'net seemed to be impressed by the speed at which SOA got the fix out there - citing serious time issues with getting a map through the EPA or whoever. he said it was easy as they are decreasing timing vs. increasing. i reckon there is less of an env impact worry with decreasing their crazing timing at ~4000 rpm

heheh, this aint isht (as far as impacting my satisfaction with a product). try an s2000 out for a real disappointment - after making excuses for a POS car for almost 3 years i dumped it, ended up with my wife's '02 WRX (gee how did she end up with one of those?) and there was no turning back - the '02 turned into an '04 STi (thank you Galles-Davis) - hey i got permission first!

'dios,

-mike

Originally posted by mfisch
he also said the diff disable thing in the ebrake was BS...



Huh? BS as in it doesn't do that? or BS in that it isn't worth doing?

Sorry this is off thread.... but I gotta know!

Originally posted by wolverine


My experience shows that if I don't WOT between the 4k to 5k mark, and then WOT after 5k up to red-line, I don't get det either. It is only when I WOT at low rpms and keep it there until I hit 4K-5K range, that's when I get det.

This is exactly what I am experiencing. Wolverine, are you having your's reflashed? Can anyone make any comments yet if they have had their's done?

Pulling the ECU is only a few 10 or 12mm bolts, but I see your point. I've pulled the ECU a few months ago and it was really easy. The dealer doesn't know about the reflash. Neither does 1800subaru3. And I guess they won't until the reflash is out of "beta".

How did you guys get on the list? What dealers?

Originally posted by mfisch
i seriously doubt the dealer will let you pull the ECU - that would be too easy, but they may have liability/warranty issues.

Well, I did have to start the car and for that I reved to 4k dumped the clutch which dropped the revs to 2.5-3k then it was WOT all the way up to 7K. So I am hoping that means I have not seen the det problem yet. I am worried that someone else here was smooth as glass then at 3200 miles started getting det. Weather condition changes maybe?

I just got mine back and I drove it hard through the lower gears at WOT to redline with no pinging. I even tried loading the car more by running the A/C at the same time (although it cuts it out a