Just got back from the dyno where I ran my own MY99 turbo which was recently converted to FWD by ISR. Boost level was 7-9psi. That is, 7psi up to 4500rpm, ramping up to 9psi by 6000rpm and then back down to 7psi by 6300rpm. I found this boost curve to give the nicest and least stressful driving characteristics.

The results:

260 wheel hp at 5800rpm
256ft-lbs of torque at 4600rpm

The car actually hits 252ft-lbs at 3800rpm, then falls down 20ft-lbs for a bit, then back up to 256ft-lbs at 4600 where it remains essentially steady until 5500rpm or so. By 6000rpm, it falls off to 225ft-lbs. Not much top end roll off at all.

The actual, as measured, output was 268 wheel hp and 263ft-lbs. But since the temps were quite chilly today (60F or so), the Dynojet corrected down with a .97 correction factor. Either way, the car gets up and goes really well with peak EGTs (top of 4th gear) of only 1450F.

FWIW, a stock 2.5RS dyno's at around 120 wheel hp. Also with 1450F EGTs http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Cheers,
Shiv

Cool! No pun intended.

I did the dual TB fuel injector kit from SDSEFI.com (with injector bung-plate by JC Sports) but still find I have to tweak the injector settings daily with weather changes.

Can you just tune the TECII and leave the settings alone for long periods of time and through weather changes?

Are you still with 9.7:1 compression pistons, and what kinda ignition advance can you run?

What size turbo compressor are you using, T3/T4?

What kinda HP would you expect from a smaller T28 sized IHI ballbearing turbo with 2.5" exhaust and your TECII kit and the same boost?

Can you finance a TECII for me http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif ?

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Ahhhh... This is why I bought the TEC-II! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif hehe...

-Nick

305hp - very nice results Shiv.

great results Shiv!
Larry, how much boost are you running with your SDSEFI? are there any issues with ping or high EGT's? besides the aforementioned issues with weather channel tuning, are there any other issues with it? do you run overly rich or lean, how's the idle, gas mileage?

thanks...

So are you saying your boost doesn't really kick in until 3800rpm? or it doesn't hit 7psi until 3800rpm?

Doesn't that create some substantial lag properties, then kick in the pants at almost 4 grand?

Just curious.

Shane Kullman
'02 WRX Blue

ugh. Shiv's car makes more hp on the dyno. "must... resist.... upping boost...." http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

FYI, I'm attaching a link to the dyno charts from the other 3 TEC-II'd cars here so people can refer back and forth.

<a href=http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum30/HTML/000191.html>http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum30/HTML/000191.html</a>

-Edwin

pe: shane, Shiv's car most definitely does not come on like a VTEC-type switch @ 4000rpm. If you look at the dyno charts from my car (similar setup, just less boost), you'll see that the torque ramps up linearly. By 2800rpm I make just as much wheel torque as a stock 2.5RS does peak @ the crank, and by 3300rpm I make more torque at the wheels than a stock WRX does peak at the crank. From there on out it's in its own territory.
Shiv's car can only be faster. Once his dyno chart is posted a comparison can be made.

[edit: forgot that I was comparing crank and wheel hp indiscriminately. My mistake, thanks to Nick for pointing that out]


[This message has been edited by efoo (edited April 03, 2001).]

Is there an electronic boost controller that allows for different boost levels based on RPM?

yup http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif it is called the TEC-II or a similar stand alone ECU with boost control that allows you to tweak it based on RPM http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

the TEC-II's boost control solenoid can be programmed to allow any boost level at an rpm (within reason).

Boost dosen't come on at 3800, it hits peak boost at 3800. It could come on faster with a more agressivley tuned map, but the car is tuned like this to prevent little bits of transmission making an appearance from under the car.

Edwin, you also have to take into account that you are comparing wheel hp numbers to crank hp numbers. The WRX makes 217 ft/lbs peak at the crank, that's not accounting for drive trane loss.

There is no real way to calculate the crank hp of these cars without taking the engine out of the car. However there is no simple way either... just adding the difference between stock hp and stock wheel hp won't yeild the correct result because the diff between wheel and crank hp is a combination of a constant drive trane loss and and percentage as power increases.

Someone gave a number of 305hp up above... I'd have to say that's lowball for what the car is more than likely producing at the crank.

-Nick

Yes, that is one of the many cool things about the TEC-II/turbo combination. You can dial in a boost curve so that it comes on strong and quick or it comes in nice and slow.

Nice, and thanks for the clarity.

I can't wait for the first stock WRX to run the TEC-II. I'm curious what sort of fine tuning will do.

Shane Kullman
'02 WRX Blue

Hey Shiv,
Very impressive results on your car. (I want to be another east coast with those kinds of results.) I was wondering in general if you can, how much money was sent to get those results? If you can also Itemize the it as well.
IE: Engine 2K
Tranny 4K
Etc.
I want to know so I can start planning.
Also I know your planning on building/releasing your own turbo kit with the tecII, would the same results be expected from that kit? Also would you do a full kit, turbo, tecII, tranny, etc everything I needed to get those results reliably? Let me know, either post here or pm me.

I'm thinking about it, and I favor your stuff because you stress reliability and safety.

Thanks,
MadMax

Ooops.. my mistake. Just looked at my dyno sheet. The car makes 252ft-lbs at 3600rpm, not 3800rpm. If I tuned the TEC-II for maximum turbo spool up, I suspect the car could reach 10psi by 3500rpm. This would yield somewhere around 270ft-lbs of wheel torque at 3500rpm. For comparison's sake, the '02 WRX, if dyno'd on the same Dynojet, would probably make somewhere between 160 and 180ft-lbs of peak torque at the wheels. As for hp, I would suspect it would be around 180 wheel hp. Just speculation, of course. We won't know for sure until we actually test it on the dyno. But, needless to say, a nicely tuned RS, running just 7-9psi of boost on 92 octane pump gas, should make almost 100 more wheel horsepower than a stock '02 WRX. And have lower EGTs to boot. Not to mention the 250lbs weight advantage. And the loads of off-boost and low end torque. Of course, it'll cost you http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

Cheers,
Shiv

great reading, thanks Shiv. Whats the ETA on Vishnu turbo kits? Last time I looked it was "in development" on the web site. I'm gonna go turbo afterall,(more economical in the long run, and better developed as of now) probably this time next year. Im starting my research now.

Shiv, those are great results!!!
Pam & Ed

Cool http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif
Where did you get it dynoed?

ok so your resluts are only for FWD. I know you spend bank on your kaaz front and rear diffs, so you threw them out only a month of using them>? or are you temporarily running FWD? could you run RWD, using a bigger diff? Would the results be the same?

and AWD? what would hp at the wheels be? by your estamate?

Just curious why did you make your car front wheel drive? How much did that cost?

I'm guessing he had it moved to FWD so that he could dyno it on a 2wd dyno which is much easier to figure out HP numbers. Not to mention there are MANY more 2WD dynos out there.

Hey Shiv, Ever play with H2O injection??? In know the Typhoon and Sycolone guys use those systems to make more HP without having to crack open the motor.

Kyle

Not to answer for Shiv, but the dyno is done in 2wd because of the availability of the 2wd dynos vs. a 4wd dyno.
Many view water injection as a crutch for poor intercooling, it's not a solution it's a temporary fix. Just my opinion, but I'd take a good IC any day over a poor IC and water injection. What happens when you run out of water, you ping? No thanks!

Ryan
drunk in LA

mrbell, your point makes no sense to me. A turbo is a mechanical device that is always available to produce results; if it breaks that is no different than any other mechanical failure on the car. However, with something like water injection, it only works if you have the water bottle full. What happens if you're racing and you can't pit for a refill when it runs out? Your car, tuned to be dependant on the water injection to cool down the intake charge, will have issues such as power loss, or pinging, etc. Personally, I think it's a hack, Corky Bell says it is a hack in his book(he knows a heck of a lot more than I do), and apparently so do most auto manufacturers who sell turbocharged cars. If it were a better choice than intercooling, than I'd suspect more folks would be doing it from the factory. For *my* turbocharged car, I don't want to rely on something that provides me with a margin of safety that needs to be renewed every so often. If you have a turbo, you can do what you want, but in my humble opinion water injection has no place on my car.

Point taken...
but what I was saying is that water injection, used in conjunction w/ a turbo and an I/C could be more efficient than w/o water injection, depending on how you do it. Just like an engine is more powerful w/ a turbo, as long as you do it properly.

Now I know why you didn't want me to run 9psi. Because I'd make as much power as youhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Seriously though, nice numbers. Now I have something to look forward to.


MattC

Or you could get a good I/C and water injection and then you get a pretty good setup. By your philosophy, a turbo could be a crutch because you could just build up a motor to make high output w/o forced induction at all because what happens when your turbo has a problem? Like pretty much anything, there's a right way and a not so right way to do it...

BUT, anyway, I really wanted to post to get Shiv's attention...
Shiv,
I sent an email to Vishnu the several days ago, but haven't gotten a response(if you've just been busy, sorry to bother you). Now there appears to be something wrong w/ the Vishnu board, and I know there was a problem w/ your email server a couple weeks ago, so I'm wondering if you ever got my email at all. Just checking. Thanks.

Tyler

Gosh Shiv, I was kinda hoping that since I was the first to respond to your post that you'd answer a few of my questions up there http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif

TR - Q: "how much boost are you running with your SDSEFI?" A: I run 7 psi at 6,000 feet altitude with no ping. I am told that at 6,000 feet the absolute compression ratio is about the same as 5.5 psi at sea-level on my 10:1 motor. The night we did the injectors it was 30 degrees outside and it ran like a beast at 8 psi, but I haven't ventured up there again. Even at 4-5 psi with boost controller turned off it is pretty fast.

Q: "are there any issues with ping or high EGT's?" No, I can run 7 pounds at 6,300 rpm in 5th gear at redline at 140mph with EGT's = 1400 and no detonation.

Q: "besides the aforementioned issues with weather channel tuning, are there any other issues with it?" A: It got wierd on me this week, very rich, even with the injectors off, and would bog down and couldn't get EGT over 1400 if I tried. A couple of resets of the ECU and Torque Chip and a bottle of octane booster seems to have fixed it today.

Q: "do you run overly rich or lean, how's the idle, gas mileage?" A: I run stock fuel pressure and it idles fine, and I seem to run a little rich no matter what. See above. I can get as low as 16mpg city or as high as 22, and get 25-29mpg on the highway depending on my driving...

Larry

I wonder if the USTCC would notice if you put your 2.5T in the WRX??? hehe

There've been numerous discussions about water injection in the past, and the most curious thing is the attitude that the people have. Some people seem to think that WI is the Great Satan. Why?

WI is a tool. Nothing more. It's not a crutch, or a band-aid, or whatever. WI, implemented properly, reduces the risk of detonation. That's it. This can allow you to run at a higher boost setting.

Why are people always worried about the system failing, or running out of water? ANY system on your car can fail, why should WI be any different? Get a good system, and your risk of failure shouldn't be any worse than any other part on your car.

A well designed system should have a resivoir large enough for your application. And even more importantly, a well designed system will have safety features in case a problem arises. A failure in the self-test system could trigger something as simple as a light in the cockpit, or as complicated as a boost cut (via programmable ECU or mechanical means).

[edit: better paragraph structure]

[This message has been edited by Lurker (edited April 06, 2001).]

Larry, thanks for the info

ooop... sorry about that Larry. Couldn't have sworn that I answer your questions. Must have logged off before submitting it to the forum.

They're easy to answer:

"Can you just tune the TECII and leave the settings alone for long periods of time and through weather changes?"

Yes. Like the stock ECU, the TEC-II can compensate for intake temp swings with both user-defined ignition and fuel trims. No need to fiddle with it.

"Are you still with 9.7:1 compression pistons, and what kinda ignition advance can you run?"

It's a 100% stock motor with 35,000 miles on it. 30,000 of them have been turbo'd. I'm typically seeing low to mid 20s of ignition advance at full boost, from peak torque to redline.

"What size turbo compressor are you using, T3/T4?"
Standard Minnam turbo trim. Don't have the exact trim details handly.

"What kinda HP would you expect from a smaller T28 sized IHI ballbearing turbo with 2.5" exhaust and your TECII kit and the same boost?"

Real hard to say. Such a set up would certainly would reach peak torque earlier. Would probably seen 250ft-lbs at around 3000rpm. However, I don't think it could support the same kind of torque towards redline. I suspect intake temps would get a bit high as well. A T28, depending on configuration, would probably be happiest in a lower boost application, making somewhere between 200 to 220 wheel hp. Just a guess though.

"Can you finance a TECII for me ?"
No, but you can... I accept credit cards ;0

Cheers.,
shiv

[This message has been edited by shiv (edited April 06, 2001).]

On another note, I have recently fitted my turbo MY99 with an Aquamist water injection system. I haven't used it yet but I suspect that, at 266 wheel hp, the turbosystem is at a point where it is limited by the 92 octane pump gas that it runs on. The WI should allow more advance and a little less fuel which should yield more power. Not to mention a nice steam cleaned engine http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

FWIW, I don't think WI is a bad crutch. However, I have seen many poor application where WI is used as a substitute to proper turbo sizing, adequate intercooler and sufficient fuel/ignition management. In my case, however, the rest of the system is quite optimized. In such a system, the WI is addressing octane limitations and only octane limitations. I hope to dyno test the WI system next week.

Cheers,
shiv

So WI is equal to how much octane boost (If this makes sense)? I guess it can depend on how much water is being injected but this has it's limits also.

I don't think WI would be a good idea to use with NOS. Has this been done? I can imagine a bunch of ice cubes forming in my throttle body. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by Kevin Thomas (edited April 06, 2001).]

Thanks Shiv for the responses.

As for the financing, I was just kidding. I cut up all my credit cards in March 1997, and pay cash for everything since then. Oh well...

Larry