I just want to know if any list members have ran water injection or is planning to run water injection on their turbo setup? I have experience with it in other cars but not in the Subaru, any input would be helpful.

I think the WRX in Japan, or some form of STI version includes it as an OE option right?

Thanks

i think that option is to spray water over and through the intercooler. turn it into a heat disipating evaporator (or something like that).
I dont think it's injected into the motor.
g

No, it is injected into the intake manifold. It is sprayed after ignition takes place and cools down the combustion chamber, I don't hear too many list members talking about it here.

Not water injection like the old Edelbroch Varijection or the kick-ass new stuff you can get from like DemonTweeks. The STi's
have a intercooler watersprayer.

Water Injection is cool, but difficult to
do well in the more modern turbo setups.

Iw

so STI only has an intercooler spray and not the internal water injection? Hummm...

i know what it IS haha, i dont think i ever seen an STi with it though.
a water sprayed intercooler should be enough for most cars.
the only place i've seen water injection is on supercharged cars with no intercooler.

Spraying water inside your motor is a bad idea. Yeah you can use it as a bandaid for your improporly tunned detonating motor, but remember how an internal combustion engine makes power...heat energy! Spraying water on a fire reduces its heat...its power...your motors power. Don't waste your time, spend the money on making power legitamatly and safely.

Ken

I'm not getting involved in this old nutshell of a discussion about WI being a bandaid... lol

Water spray = sprays water onto the outside of the intercooler to increase its effeciency of cooling the charge temp (is this classed as a band aid?) http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

Water injection = water is sprayed/atomised with the air fuel mixture in the inlet manifold (normally after the turbo). The has two effects, lowers the charge temps and also moves the det threshold.

I cant resist sod it.... WI doesnt make power, if not used correctly it can lose power. But it recoupes power that is lost to other factors, compression, grade of fuel, intake temps, or the fact you rare trying to obtain that last BHP that isnt normally obtainable.

So people can argue its a band aid for poor turbo choice, poor intercooler.... But what happens when you have the best turbo, the best IC.. and you still get det because of the ignitionn/compression... do you back off the timing and potentially lose power, or run WI and obtain that slight extra edge over your competitor.

I have run (and know a few other people who run) WI on Subies... and it allows them to run a few degrees more advance which gives them the extra power. You can blame the poor grade of fuel... or the poor uprated intercoolers...but there comes a point where WI will be needed. Why did Saab use it, Ford WRC car, Subaru WRC car, etc.

Anyway.. I know this will drag on... and on...and on...

J.

ps - My car ran a front mount.. a big turbo (rated to 1.8 bar to redline).. intake temps were 32 degrees without spray or WI.. compression of 8.2:1... but I wanted to extract every last bit of power.. henc eI ran aggresive timing.. WI allowed me to do that. (and no I wasnt willing to run race gas)

Look at this website...specifically look at his piston designs...I will never Run WI, I will build it right, and if it can't hang I won't spend money for bandaids I will save money and do it right.
www.theoldone.com (http://www.theoldone.com)
This is Endyn

Ken

I'm using WI on my supercharged '99 2.5RS (7-lbs boost)

It works great – I get virtually no detting whatsoever with octane 94 (an occasional tick on WOT @ ~4500RPM). EGT actually drops 100F going from a cruise at 70mph (EGT=1450F) to WOT (EGT=1350F).
Trey, at Cobb Tuning, had taken a look at some of the spark plugs as made a concerted decision on choosing the heat range of 6 (NGK BKR6EV) – they were steam-cleaned http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif .

My only gripe is the necessary frequent refilling of the windshield water tank (from which the WI is tapped into). It gets tiring, having to pop the hood open twice a week or so. I'm thinking of routing a funnel, exposed somewhere for easy refill access, to the tank.

Ed.

I used to run w/i on my old 510. Ran a 2.0L with turbo. Without water injection, I couldn't run more than 8psi without serious detonation. With, I was able to run up to 18psi. Car was a screamer with that amount of boost and, as in previous posts, carbon buildup in either the engine or on sparkplugs, was non-existent. True, I could have spent scads of money to build a real engine that didn't need w/i, but it served my purpose just as well.

Can someone please explain to me how water injection works? i know that water can be used to cool the combustion chamber.... so it just goes into the combustion chamber and explodes with the air/fuel mixture... why not just mix it in with gas and let the fuel injectors do all the work.. is there somehow any way to premix gas and water so the ratio is just right?

Jay - Did you have water injection when you had a top mounted intercoler? If so, where did you mount the nozzle? Thanks.

[This message has been edited by rao (edited May 31, 2001).]

Prostho,

To read about WI, check out the official website AQUAMIST @ www.aquamist.co.uk. (http://www.aquamist.co.uk.) There is heated debate over the pros and cons of WI here
http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000004.html

Jan

Howdy..

Location of the nozzles is dependant on what you want the WI for.

Eg.. before the intercooler is used to cool the charge temps, improving the cooling through the IC.

I ran it there for a while... I had the alloy Y-Pipe... so I drill and tapped that.

After the intercooler but before the throttle ody is used mainly for det prevention...you can now get a custom silicon pip replacement that has a boss on it for the nozzle.

WI does remove/reduce carbon build up.. and does produce a lovely clean bore/piston/head..

J.

...wish i had another $400+ to blow...

Thanks Jay.

Did anyone check the website I posted? Just curious to know if anyone is interested in expanding their automotive concious.

Ken

Ken - yes about 3 years ago - that topic is always guaranteed to cuse quite a stir so no comment here.

Rao you lost me, which topic...the WI or Endyns proven theorys on cumbustion management?

Ken

Ken - Endyn or anything related to Larry Widmar.

Aquamist has a simple kit, the 1s, that comprises a motorsport pump, a number of different sized spray nozzle, pressure sensor and controller that I am considering for my application. Where I am, the ambient temp is a power robbing and det inducing 91.5ºF. Nothing difficult about fitting the 1s kit but might be a challenge fitting it to a custom bracket on the Y-pipe. My application is mainly to lower intake temps. 158ºF (70ºC) at the throttle @ 6000 rpm, 1.2 bar is way too much!!

It's all nice to learn from you guys who have run WI and found no carbon deposits. Is this theoretical or based on actual observation, after having seen the engine internals on the bench?

Been also talking to another WI user (Jay knows him as Mark A.) seems WI messes up the AFR readings so there's no way to tell if you are running correct fuel mixtures. Seems the only way is get the mixtures right first without WI then use WI for prevention.

While I'm at it, there are several reasons why you would want to have WI (actually no reasons not to http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif ).

* in places where aftermarket modifications are prohibited by law, eg front mount intercooler, WI is a nice "invisible" tool that works better

* Water is a lot cheaper than dumping fuel although for the record, 97 RON unleaded fuel is cheaper in Brunei than bottled water http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

* in places with high ambient temps, WI is the best way to combat power robbing temps where FMICs would prove ineffective. The ability to maintain the ECU's state of tune is critical to the car's performance, you wouldnt want the ECU to keep retarding timing as intake temps soar.

Ok I did a search, it turned up nothing. Shall we start the debate for those not in the know? Camon, it'll be fun. When ever my EJ20 blows its stack I will have him make me a set of pistons. I think they are quite possibly the most beautiful this this side of the crankshaft.

Ken

Jan,

No carbon deposits is from actual experience. In my 510 (carbed, turbo) I would have absolutely Zero carbon build up. The only problem with w/i is by using too much water. If used improperly, it "WILL" quench the fire, robbing you of performance and increasing the chance of oil contamination, not to mention stripping it off of the cylinder walls. Using too much will also make the turbo spool much higher than it was designed for. Sounds like it will work great in your part of the world.

<Spraying water inside your motor is a bad idea. Yeah you can use it as a bandaid for your improporly tunned detonating motor, but remember how an internal combustion engine makes power...heat energy! Spraying water on a fire reduces its heat...its power...your motors power. Don't waste your time, spend the money on making power legitamatly and safely.>

Spraying water would not decrease power,it would increase power because it would help the intercooler cool the air allowing a more contentration of Oxygen to mix with fuel into the combustion chamber putting more power against the pistion,So it acts as a band aid and a power increaser.

I plan to get water injection so I can run less risk of detonation on my 10:1 pistons under higher levels of boost. The lower intake air temps and detonation resistance will be a nice addition.

Larry

10:1 CR and turbo? Well, that is high! I think only the germans run high CR and force induction at the same time, it gives you off boost response and on boost power, best of booth worlds. I think I will wait for the warranty to expire before I get water injection.

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I was scoping out your fine forum this evening and I thought I'd drop the following links for anyone interested in learning how to screw together an inexpensive WI system: http://www.dawesdevices.com/water.html http://www.dawesdevices.com/howto.html

Water injections works and is sometimes the most cost effective solution for detonation. I've used it on a number of vehicles without negative incident. However, if you're designing a system from scratch (doesn't seem to be the problem here) you'll be happier with a big intercooler.

I use water spray intercooling on my Turbocharged SVX. It seems to help the engine run smoother and w/ more agressive timing. Gives it a good steam cleaning. Water injection is supposed to give you better gas milage, since you can use less fuel for cooling. I purchace a Tec II and bigger 550 fuel injectors. I may go to an A/W intercooler. I'm hoping that the water spray will be enough at my low boost ranges.