I've got my STi now, and it needs a turbo upgrade by the end of September, that leaves a month left in the local drag race season. I'm totally up in the air at this point on the sizing - I was originally considering a mild upgrade that would be better for auto-x, but the 2nd gear is so short on the the sti that you could run a turbo with a bit higher boost threshold than with a wrx gearbox. Plus it's really tempting to make a streetable 450 crank hp.

I have a catless 3" turbo back going on the car soon, an AVO intake pipe, and need to get a ball and spring MBC. I intend to start out by running the turbo on the stock ECU with the boost around 15.5-16 psi to redline, monitoring the results with delta dash. I will eventually get a custom ECUTEK tune by a local tuner, and also setup one of the higher end aquamist kits (running water/methanol), with a custom tune. Probably stick with the stock intercooler, stock injectors, upgrade the fuel pump to deal better with the boost increase.

Here's the list of turbos I was considering, and my comments:

18G: My original choice. Should spool like a stock car, given the other mods. Maxes out around 350 whp on race gas. Might have trouble holding 16 psi to redline on the 2.5, or at least would be really pushing it on pump fuel. Cheap price.

Used old style 1820: See a few available around $1000. Seems to be sized between the 18g/20g, considerably more lag than a 18g, but not much more power?

20g w/7cm hot side, 6 or 6h wheel. Should make some solid power (~375 txs WHP) with half decent, but not great spool.

AVO450: I believe Clark said it was making decent boost by 4000 rpm, but would also have very solid top end, over 400 TXS whp on race gas. State of the art GT3037 design, ball bearing center, water cooled. Very nice turbo, but expensive.

Green w/7cm/6h: Big bad mofo, on par with the AVO500. I think this turbo is just too big for my needs, both in lag and power output.

If anybody can help fill in the blanks, or help me make up my mind, I would apriciate it.

Thanks,

Kevin

whaaaaat? No love?

Kevin

The 18g would be a solid turbo for your car. Real nice spool up, half the price of an 1820, and decent top end. I have a feeling you might be wanting more though after awhile. I know I am (it's like an addiction) That is why this turbo kicks ass. When you do want more, you can send it in and make it a Green.

I say try the 18g out for awhile.

Originally posted by silverscooby
The 18g would be a solid turbo for your car. Real nice spool up, half the price of an 1820, and decent top end. I have a feeling you might be wanting more though after awhile. I know I am (it's like an addiction) That is why this turbo kicks ass. When you do want more, you can send it in and make it a Green.

I say try the 18g out for awhile.

That was my original idea, take the 18g get as much as I could out of it. Then sell it off when I'm ready to upgrade. It is very tempting to proceed directly to the AVO450, though, which is clearly the superior turbo of the bunch - I think it would give me the big power without being too laggy when fully tuned.

If the AVO450 makes full boost at 4000 rpms in 4th gear, how laggy is it - getting it to spool up? My vf29 would make full boost by 3000 Rpm's in forth gear, but would take until 4000 rpms to make full boost if you nailed it in 2nd gear. I guess it depends on the load.

Hum. I need to go and check the Rpm vs. speed for 2nd gear in my car.

Thanks,

Kevin

I think he meant, get the 18G and when you get tired of it, it can be upgraded to a 20G or probably a FP green.

No need to sell it.

I don't know how much you want to push the envelope, or even how much more the sti engine can handle. But if you raised your redline a little, that would make the 450 alot more manageable, and would be better suited to the 2.5 than the others with a higher redline. Just throwing the idea out there, good luck with your choice.

Well, honestly the stock turbo is very good... just the ECU calls it quits before the turbo can get happy. It seems like this turbo wants to run well north of the stock 14psi, and who knows where it ends because the fuel cut steps in way too soon.

being stuck with 16.9 psi for your max, would lead me to advise getting maybe a cheap VF22 till the ECU is cracked and the turbo market settles down?

The other thing you might think of is getting an aftermarket header for a 03 JDM STi with the twin entry turbo and then making a custom 3037 setup using the twin entry version of that turbo.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
Well, honestly the stock turbo is very good... just the ECU calls it quits before the turbo can get happy. It seems like this turbo wants to run well north of the stock 14psi, and who knows where it ends because the fuel cut steps in way too soon.


I really have to strongly disagree with this. The evidence I've seen shows that the stock turbo can't hold more than 13 psi to redline. When Clark swaped their's out to an AVO450, which could very easily hold 16 psi at redline, it made 80 hp more at redline than the stock turbo, yes, 80 more hp on 2.5 more psi of boost....:eek:. That's a clear indicator that the stock turbo is maxed out and blowing hot air. The ECU and stock fuel system handles the bigger turbo and more boost just fine, up to about 15.5-16 psi, but it's really dependant on max airflow. Also, if you look at Dan's graph here, it shows the stock turbo can't make any more boost at redline even with a MBC, downpipe and intake:

http://www.godspeedinc.com/images/boostdphpbc.jpg

http://www.godspeedinc.com/images/DynoDPHPBC.jpg

What else do you expect from vf30 sized compressor? That 13.5 psi at redline is equivalent to 20 psi on a EJ20.....can a VF30 do more than 20 psi at redline on a EJ20? NO!

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket



What else do you expect from vf30 sized compressor? That 13.5 psi at redline is equivalent to 20 psi on a EJ20.....can a VF30 do more than 20 psi at redline on a EJ20? NO!

Kevin

If the EJ257 were flowing the same air, it'd make essentially the same power. In this case it's not making as much power as an EJ20 with a similarly sized turbo with 20PSI at 7000rpm.

25% more displacement doesn't = 25% more air though the motor; There is a lot more to it then that.

strange, I'm keeping almost 15 psi in 5th at redline.

I'm thinking its capible of holding alot more boost if you can kick it up higher to start with. my VF34 would trail like that if you set the peak boost to 16 or 17psi. Set the peak boost to 19psi and it would start to creep... BAD!

The important thing is to findout either by begging for a compressor map, or through real life data is to see if the CFM requirements of the EJ257 is dragging the VF39 off the peak efficency island at high boost or not.

has there been any talk of the det that has happening on the stock sti's? i would be afraid to turn up boost any more than stock where there is already det...
even if - i am hard pressed to find any tuner that has cracked the sti's ecu code... this would probably prove to be the best first upgrade for it in order to smooth out stock power and allow a safer application of boost..
IMO - wait for ECU reflash - then go nuts...:banana: (go you crazy banana - go!)

Originally posted by nmyeti


If the EJ257 were flowing the same air, it'd make essentially the same power. In this case it's not making as much power as an EJ20 with a similarly sized turbo with 20PSI at 7000rpm.

25% more displacement doesn't = 25% more air though the motor; There is a lot more to it then that.

Of course there is. But there's no way to know all the variables right now either. When sizing a compressor side, in general, displacement is linearly related to the rate of air mass you need to flow. So it is very valid rough comparison.

Of course the EJ257 isn't making more power - it's running pig rich with marginal timing.

Kevin

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
strange, I'm keeping almost 15 psi in 5th at redline.

I'm thinking its capible of holding alot more boost if you can kick it up higher to start with. my VF34 would trail like that if you set the peak boost to 16 or 17psi. Set the peak boost to 19psi and it would start to creep... BAD!

The important thing is to findout either by begging for a compressor map, or through real life data is to see if the CFM requirements of the EJ257 is dragging the VF39 off the peak efficency island at high boost or not.

That 15 psi is not suprising in 5th, I beleive those dyno's were taken in 4th. Regardless, I'm sure the turbo maxed out.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket




Of course the EJ257 isn't making more power - it's running pig rich with marginal timing.

Kevin

Not on my dyno.

Originally posted by nmyeti


Not on my dyno.

So you're saying the sti couldn't make more power with a better tune? So we don't need utec's? :lol:

Please enlighten us to why else an EJ257 would make less power than a EJ205 at the same air mass flow rate? I'm sure the more restrictive exhaust housing on the VF39 vs. the VF30 is also hurting the sti's to end. Or do the cams just suck?

How do you explain the very linear tapering of boost that we see above on the above boost plot for the MBC car. To me, that looks like the turbo is maxed out in flow by 4000 RPM's and just can't pump enough air to hold the boost up as the RPM's rise.

Kevin

SR50

I have seen the same thing. The 257's have just not made alot more power then the EJ20's. I think with the right turbo you can certainly make alot of power with one. It will take the market a year before this really happens.

On to the turbo choice and my opinions:

I think the stock turbo is worthless. In fact I would not even run an MBC. I would replace it right away.

With the AVO450 on the STI motor a solid 80whp was gained at redline. In fact, peak power was made at redline. Around 7000 rpm. The AVO's are damn nice turbos. I wish people would use them more so we could see what they really can do. They also open up the idea of hybrids. The AVO450 is a Garrett GT3037-10. The AVO500 is exactly the same with a larger Exhaust turbine wheel. Since they use the -10 cartridge We (a bunch of us in the sidelines) agree that the compressor is a bit small. It uses a nice To4e compressor housing but the GT30 2 inch wheel.

I think from what we have all learned in the last month I would personally go with a turbo that had the largest and most highest flowing backside on the new STI. Its certainly going to need it and in the little experiment on the STI with 80whp at redline being gained at only 2 psi more.... People should take note.

My personal Choice for a bolt on turbo for the new STI would be these in this order:


1. An FP 20G with the 8Cm housing and 6H wheel (impossible to get but if you can get one do it)

2.An AVO450 or 500 with a -12 cartridge :banana: The big wheels the turbo needs to make Big power.

3.An AVO500 (Huge exhaust flow, Real GT center and wheels, To4E housing. Still bolts on.

4. An AVO450. Slightly less lag. Basically the same turbo. Smaller Exhaust turbine wheel.

5. An old style PE1820 with some port work on the exhaust side and a clipped wheel or a larger wheel. Increase the ehaust flow of this turbo and I expect you would make ALOT more power with it. These are popping up used now for $800-$1000. The old ones have the large Compressor. I will have one for sale in a few weeks.

Other then that I would do a custom setup using a 60-1 or a T series turbo.

Pic shows the AVO450 next to the US STI turbo the VF39. Notice the large and in charge backside to the AVO450. Its as large as the T04E compressor.

AVO450 0.6 AR 48Trim 2.08/3.00 Inch Compressor wheel 0.86 AR exhaust housing 84 Trim 2.03/2.22 Inch turbine wheel. This turbo is exactly this garrett GTR:

GT30 700177-0010 48Trim Compressor 2.08/3.00 84 trim turbine 2.03/2.22 turbine wheel. 44lbs flow.

AVO500 uses a 2.16/2.36 Inch turbine wheel but is the same otherwise. So.. The AVO500 uses the -10 compressor with the -12 turbine side. Very odd combo. Oposite problem of the PE1820... The AVO500 has a big caboose. The 1820 has a big front side but not much junk in the trunk.

Clark


http://www.wishbone.audi0.com/~clark/images/sti/turboswap/DSC02004.jpg

Originally posted by Red Rocket


So you're saying the sti couldn't make more power with a better tune? So we don't need utec's? :lol:

Please enlighten us to why else an EJ257 would make less power than a EJ205 at the same air mass flow rate? I'm sure the more restrictive exhaust housing on the VF39 vs. the VF30 is also hurting the sti's to end. Or do the cams just suck?

How do you explain the very linear tapering of boost that we see above on the above boost plot for the MBC car. To me, that looks like the turbo is maxed out in flow by 4000 RPM's and just can't pump enough air to hold the boost up as the RPM's rise.

Kevin

Kevin,
You are confusing a few things that I’ve said and or reading too much into them.

13psi on the EJ257@7000 does not = 20PSI on an EJ20@7000rpms.

That was my first statement. When you increase displacement 25% you don't automatically increase airflow 25%. This is a fairly common misconception that people have when they spend time calculating points on a compressor map. In the real world it doesn't quite work out that way.

As to why the STI with it's stock turbo is falling on it's face on the top end, I have 2-3 guesses, but nothing is absolute, and until I end up with a chance to actually test the car when I am in control of timing I won't be able to give you feedback on how well my guesses play out in the real world, and frankly I don't care to speculate aloud since sometime in the past year or so, my thinking out-loud privileges have been revoked.

The stock timing is fairly aggressive, and the stock A/F ratios (At least on our STI) are a bit on the conservative side, but not what I’d call pig rich. I don't think there is much to be gained by just leaning out the car. On a perfect day we'll say we could gain 20hp at redline by leaning the car out. That 20Hp still doesn't put the car on par with an EJ205 running 20psi at redline.

The point of my contribution to this discussion is simply to remind you that while it's nice and neat on paper to just add 25% to your compressor map calculations, it's not going to play out that way in the real world.

Do I think that the stock EJ257 has more potential then a stock EJ205? Yes! Do I think it has 25% more potential? Well if it does, it’s more because the rods and pistons are stronger to allow for higher peak boost pressures then it is because of the added displacement.

Assuming I build a 2.0L motor and a 2.5L motor both running “no holds barred” on heads, cams, turbo selection, boost pressure, which would I take? I’d take the 2.5L because it’s going to be more enjoyable with the extra displacement around town. The 2.0L may actually be capable of producing more peak HP. IIRC the world Subaru EJ dyno record is still held by a 2.0L motor.

This is not to say that I don’t think the EJ257 can’t be tuned, or that positive results can’t be had.

per my conversations with APS they recommend the APS SR40 with their 20.0 size turbine, good for up to 450hp. If you want stock-like spoolup then the standard SR40 should be the ticket.

AZScoobie
Thankyou for this information.

The AVO450.
As you have used this turbo on USDM STI did you find the stock injectors maxing out. STI rate them at 534cc.

I used delta dash at the last track day and recorded IDC at over 90% and my EGT's were 1550F in all gears using 94oct. 5th gear the car finally starts to go with boost set at 16psi.

The Road Course here is at 3600ft, altitude correction usually puts it at 4500ft. I found the VF39 is so bad in the first 4 gears that anything above 5000rpm the boost fell flat on its face using EBC and turboxs exhaust. My old Stage 4 would eat the STI to 100mph then the STI would eat the Stage 4 from 100mph on.

Nathan
The AMG SLK 32 with cam job and smaller blower pulley is killing me, 1.5sec a lap. Big big order to be placed when UTEC etc etc is finished.;)

http://jidoshaphoto.com/BeyondTrackDay-Aug0703/img_105_0581.html
http://jidoshaphoto.com/BeyondTrackDay-Aug0703/img_105_0582.html

Had him by 5sec a lap when it rained thou

Wombat. IDC's where in the 90's. Once the ROM file for the STI ECU is out or the UTEC is ready we can fix this. AF was 10.0 to 1 to 10.5 to 1.

Ditch the stock turbo. I personally think its to small for anything past stock, especially in a road race situation.

Clark

Thank's guys for all you input.

Any idea on the spool of the 20g with a 7cm/6h - RPM's to hit 1 bar boost on the sti?

Thanks,

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Thank's guys for all you input.

Any idea on the spool of the 20g with a 7cm/6h - RPM's to hit 1 bar boost on the sti?

Thanks,

Kevin


The US STI does not spool turbos much faster. Cams and ports cross out the advantages of the AVCS and Displacement to some degree. On the STI tests We ran with an MBC on the AVO450 200-300 rpm at max shorter to get to 14 psi for the EJ257 versus the same exact turbo on an EJ207.

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



The US STI does not spool turbos much faster. Cams and ports cross out the advantages of the AVCS and Displacement to some degree. On the STI tests We ran with an MBC on the AVO450 200-300 rpm at max shorter to get to 14 psi for the EJ257 versus the same exact turbo on an EJ207.

Clark

Clark,
Very interesting info. As of a few hours ago I got hold of a rebuilt AVO 450.:D

I presume from your posts the 450 turbo will run on the stock fuel system at least upto 16psi. Is this correct

Originally posted by Wombat North


Clark,
Very interesting info. As of a few hours ago I got hold of a rebuilt AVO 450.:D

I presume from your posts the 450 turbo will run on the stock fuel system at least upto 16psi. Is this correct


ON the car we tested (which is owned by Rich) 16 psi is safe on the stock fuel system with about 94-95 octane unleaded fuel.

Clark

Maybe t67 or GT2835 will satisfy you?

Originally posted by calworld
Maybe t67 or GT2835 will satisfy you?

Isn't the T67 rather large, and not bolt on?

The GT2835 is smaller than the AVO450, which is basicly a bolt on GT3037. I wonder if AVO makes a bolt on version of the 2835?

Kevin

The AVO 400 Is according to one site a GT25 turbo.

Personaly I just ordered a AVO 500 and called it good. The stock turbo + boost controler I can get positive pressure at 1,500 and 5psi at 2K rpm. So I'm not really worried about it. Plus the motor pulls hard enough OFF boost......

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
The AVO 400 Is according to one site a GT25 turbo.

Personaly I just ordered a AVO 500 and called it good. The stock turbo + boost controler I can get positive pressure at 1,500 and 5psi at 2K rpm. So I'm not really worried about it. Plus the motor pulls hard enough OFF boost......

That's SICK, good for you! I'm just not sure if I need to shell out the big $$$ for an AVO unit just yet, maybe I'll just get a 20g and see how things turn out.

Thanks,

Kevin

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
The AVO 400 Is according to one site a GT25 turbo.

Personaly I just ordered a AVO 500 and called it good. The stock turbo + boost controler I can get positive pressure at 1,500 and 5psi at 2K rpm. So I'm not really worried about it. Plus the motor pulls hard enough OFF boost......

The AVO400 is indead a GT25 based turbo. The exhaust side is a .64 housing and the exhaust turbine is much smaller.

0.6 Compressor 48 trim 2.09/3.00 Inch wheel. 0.64 AR exhaust side 76 trim 1.85/2.12 Inch turbine.

Probably spools fast on a 2.0. Its rated at 39 lbs flow which is about like a PE1820. Its not that popular because its not a huge leap over some of the bolt on IHI units. At least not on paper.



Clark

local guy has/had a surplus one after getting his 20g w 8cm housing, and I wanted to get it from him for the drags tonight, but meh.


Anyhoo I already need to change the tranny fluid from all the dragracing and autoX so I'll give the car a weekend off.....

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
local guy has/had a surplus one after getting his 20g w 8cm housing, and I wanted to get it from him for the drags tonight, but meh.


Anyhoo I already need to change the tranny fluid from all the dragracing and autoX so I'll give the car a weekend off.....


I know that turbo! I felt its pull at 1.9 bar of boost down the back straight at PIR! Sick. Just Sick.

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie


The AVO400 is indead a GT25 based turbo. The exhaust side is a .64 housing and the exhaust turbine is much smaller.

0.6 Compressor 48 trim 2.09/3.00 Inch wheel. 0.64 AR exhaust side 76 trim 1.85/2.12 Inch turbine.

Probably spools fast on a 2.0. Its rated at 39 lbs flow which is about like a PE1820. Its not that popular because its not a huge leap over some of the bolt on IHI units. At least not on paper.



Clark

I bet that would make a nice little auto-x turbo.

Kevin

I've found a buyer for my sti wheels, so I've decided to order an AVO450 by the end of the week. Should be pretty sick. I see no reason to go for an AVO500, as the only difference is a larger turbine wheel.

I decided against the forced performance 20g or green because of the 7cm vs. 8cm exhaust housing issue, and their recent unwillingness to discuss their turbos......:lol: I have a distinct inpression that the FP guys will release a bolt on GT series turbo eventually, but they aren't saying anything, so I'm not going to wait.

Speak up now if you think I should do otherwise.

Thanks,

Kevin

The 500 has a bigger exaust side, not compressor side. Anyhoo there is only one 500 in the current shippment of AVO turbos comming in to the US and its MINE :disco: :banana: :disco:

But yes the 450 should be virtualy the same to most people, if not better.

How is the spool up from the AVO450 compared to the new PE1820? (That is a turbo I know)

Are there compressor maps available for the AVO400 and AVO450?

Mark.

Has anyone looked at GT32 or 35 flow maps: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/servlet/com.turbobygarrett.servlet.TurboByGarrettCTR

Click Go on the picture to download the PDF

I was reading somewhere that you could get these turbos in a twin scroll setup.

Brad

Originally posted by Red Rocket


I decided against the forced performance 20g or green because of the 7cm vs. 8cm exhaust housing issue, and their recent unwillingness to discuss their turbos......:lol: I have a distinct inpression that the FP guys will release a bolt on GT series turbo eventually, but they aren't saying anything, so I'm not going to wait.






Half the guys griping about the 8cm vs. 7cm housings don't even know what that measurement actually means. If you want to put 550whp down you might want the 8cm, otherwise you'll be better off with the few hundred rpm earlier spool that the 7cm provides.

If you want an 8cm^2 housing and can demonstrate that you are capable of using it to it's penitential, I have no doubt that one can be provided for you.

What really kills me is watching guys that are not in the 12s talk about how they need an 8cm^2 exhaust housing. The wildly popular and highly successful Red turbo from Forced Performance has run 9 second ¼ mile times at 140+mph using the 8cm housing without n2o.

As for Forced Performance not talking about the recipe of their turbochargers, well I don’t blame them. Subaru guys, for the most part, are way too married to their slide rules and not familiar enough with a torque wrench. A lot of you guys are giddy with all the different options for the build of these turbochargers simply because it’s another “spec” to talk about in your mod list and are making assumptions about components that you have absolutely NO experience with. The guys at Forced Performance know what they are doing and build a fantastic turbocharger. When dealing with the black art of turbo charging, it’s nice to have a company who you completely trust to build you a proper system. They have real world experience with every combination that they’ve provided us and are the type of company that is very interested in seeing their turbochargers perform well.

The 8cm^2 housing was a compromise. It was NOT the desired choice, but it was available and cost effective when they started this project. Almost everyone that has used an 8cm^2 housing would be better served by the 7cm^2 housing unless they plan to run large shots of N2o though the motor. Spend a few minutes looking at their website and their DSM products to learn what housing is appropriate for you. The 8cm housing is used in 600whp turbochargers. While bigger is often better, in this case you are wasting a bit of spool up for no real gains on the top end since no one who has one of these turbochargers installed is at the flow limits of even the 7cm housing.

As for their future projects with Subaru; you’ll have to talk to them about that. Based on what we’ve know about the size of the compressor housing, I’d not expect to see more than another few lbs of air out of the compressor side anytime soon. If you are serious enough to want 65lbs of air, you should be smart enough to know that it’s going to require some additional fabrication work.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

How would a VF22 fair on an STi? They're so damn cheap and easy to get a hold of!

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
The 500 has a bigger exaust side, not compressor side. Anyhoo there is only one 500 in the current shippment of AVO turbos comming in to the US and its MINE :disco: :banana: :disco:

But yes the 450 should be virtualy the same to most people, if not better.

I knew that, I just miss-typed. It's the turbine wheel size, as far as I know the housings are the same AR.

Thanks,

Kevin

Originally posted by nmyeti


What really kills me is watching guys that are not in the 12s talk about how they need an 8cm^2 exhaust housing. The wildly popular and highly successful Red turbo from Forced Performance has run 9 second ¼ mile times at 140+mph using the 8cm housing without n2o

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

:lol: Thats funny I feel the same way.

Back in the 3.8 turbo days I was running a TE-44... Tons of others were running 60's and bigger and were wondering why they were stuck in the 13's and I was running low 12's with a 44.

People like to do the same with injectors.

I cant tell you how many cars I have seen with HUGE injectors and a HUGE turbo that were running slower than my car with a TE-44 and 36lb/hr injectors.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER people...

Oversizing a turbo is one of the best ways to make a car run like crap.

I cant wait to see this outcome... :devil:

~v6

Originally posted by nmyeti





Half the guys griping about the 8cm vs. 7cm housings don't even know what that measurement actually means. If you want to put 550whp down you might want the 8cm, otherwise you'll be better off with the few hundred rpm earlier spool that the 7cm provides.

If you want an 8cm^2 housing and can demonstrate that you are capable of using it to it's penitential, I have no doubt that one can be provided for you.

What really kills me is watching guys that are not in the 12s talk about how they need an 8cm^2 exhaust housing. The wildly popular and highly successful Red turbo from Forced Performance has run 9 second ¼ mile times at 140+mph using the 8cm housing without n2o.

As for Forced Performance not talking about the recipe of their turbochargers, well I don’t blame them. Subaru guys, for the most part, are way too married to their slide rules and not familiar enough with a torque wrench. A lot of you guys are giddy with all the different options for the build of these turbochargers simply because it’s another “spec” to talk about in your mod list and are making assumptions about components that you have absolutely NO experience with. The guys at Forced Performance know what they are doing and build a fantastic turbocharger. When dealing with the black art of turbo charging, it’s nice to have a company who you completely trust to build you a proper system. They have real world experience with every combination that they’ve provided us and are the type of company that is very interested in seeing their turbochargers perform well.

The 8cm^2 housing was a compromise. It was NOT the desired choice, but it was available and cost effective when they started this project. Almost everyone that has used an 8cm^2 housing would be better served by the 7cm^2 housing unless they plan to run large shots of N2o though the motor. Spend a few minutes looking at their website and their DSM products to learn what housing is appropriate for you. The 8cm housing is used in 600whp turbochargers. While bigger is often better, in this case you are wasting a bit of spool up for no real gains on the top end since no one who has one of these turbochargers installed is at the flow limits of even the 7cm housing.

As for their future projects with Subaru; you’ll have to talk to them about that. Based on what we’ve know about the size of the compressor housing, I’d not expect to see more than another few lbs of air out of the compressor side anytime soon. If you are serious enough to want 65lbs of air, you should be smart enough to know that it’s going to require some additional fabrication work.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com



What happened to the "bigger is better" rule of thumb on exhaust housings? Is it out the window now that the 8cm^2 housings aren't as available? Why is all the testing you guys did and posted here with a 8cm, if most of the consumer turbos are going to be supplied with a 7cm? I personally have no idea if the 7 will make a difference vs. the 8, but you guys haven't even tested the 7cm seemingly?

I do know what the 7cm^2 measurement is - it's the crossectional area of the smallest area of the turbine inlet nozzle, before circumfential volute to the turbine wheel. It's basicly a restrictor, the smallest pipe the exhaust gas gets to flow through. It's a hole about 3 cm in diameter. Does the fact that the 8cm^2 is 14% larger in area matter very much? I don't know, but it seems to me that 14% is a big deal when you have 2 feet of exhaust piping before it on a subaru. Of course it's not as big a deal on DSM's because the turbo is bolted to the manifold right next to the heads. Backpressure, it's not good.

Maybe the 7cm^2 housing is fine, I don't know. I'd just like to see some test results. It's pretty hard to compare the mitsu housing sizes to Garrett's A/R measurement of the turbine side. Is there any way to make a conversion without measuring one directly? The AVO's .86 A/R is solidly in the middle of the range offered for the GT30 turbine housings, but the turbo still spools by 4000 RPM on an untuned sti.

I also managed to come across this compressor map for the GT3037-10:

http://www.slowboyracing.com/GT%20turbos/compressor%20maps/GT10_2.jpg

You can compare that to the 20g map:

http://cherrypicker.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/td06h-20g-cfm.gif

Conversion factor is 1 lb/min = 14.472 cfm. Very similar, but the 3037 is a bit bigger. Whatever. Though, that plot is for an A/R .70 compressor housing and the AVO450 is supplied with a .6. Hummmm. Maybe not exactly the right map?

As for the dig on guys that aren't fast yet - that doesn't mean we can't be fast in the future. At the rate you're going, I'll be into the 11's before you, and I'll autocross the same setup.

I placed my order for a AVO450 today, but they are backordered. The next shipment of them will be in a couple weeks, and there are a limited number coming in.

Kevin

V6, Nathan... My hat is off to you. Finally someone is trying to put some sence into the discussions on this board. I too can vouch for FP guys. I've been dealing with Robert since 96 and every single turbo he has made for me just RULED! If anybody know how to put a good performing turbo together it's him. Too many guys here do bench racing and count their horsepower based on how many stickers they have and by how much they paid for a part and how shiny it is. Those are the guys that badmouth someone/ something because they don't understand how things work but try to make themselfs sound smart by bashing good people/ products. Not good.:disco: I with they'd listen to those who know and have realy world experience.
Ok, done ranging.

Alex...

Originally posted by V6TurboTA


:lol: Thats funny I feel the same way.

Back in the 3.8 turbo days I was running a TE-44... Tons of others were running 60's and bigger and were wondering why they were stuck in the 13's and I was running low 12's with a 44.

People like to do the same with injectors.

I cant tell you how many cars I have seen with HUGE injectors and a HUGE turbo that were running slower than my car with a TE-44 and 36lb/hr injectors.

BIGGER IS NOT BETTER people...

Oversizing a turbo is one of the best ways to make a car run like crap.

I cant wait to see this outcome... :devil:

~v6

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here Brandon. I should be able to get full boost by 4000 rpm with this AVO turbo (hopefully even better eventually), have good responsiveness, and still have awesome top end. This setup should be alot more streetable than a 20g/8cm/TD06h on a EJ205, for instance.

Kevin

Originally posted by amelnikov
V6, Nathan... My hat is off to you. Finally someone is trying to put some sence into the discussions on this board. I too can vouch for FP guys. I've been dealing with Robert for since 96 and every single turbo he has made for me just RULED! If anybody know how to put a good performing turbo together it's him. Too many guys here do bench racing and count their horsepower based on how many stickers they have and by how much they paid for a part and how shiny it is. Those are the guys that badmouth someone/ something because they don't understand how things work but try to make themselfs sound smart by bashing good people/ products. Not good.:disco: I with they'd listen to those who know and have realy world experience.
Ok, done ranging.

Alex...

:lol:

Let's all be TXS and FP fanboys, yay! :lol:

If you hadn't noticed, this is a technical discussion. I personally like to know something about a product before spending $1000+ on it.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
What happened to the "bigger is better" rule of thumb on exhaust housings? Is it out the window now that the 8cm^2 housings aren't as available?

You are confusing the big turbine wheel with the big turbine housing.

Originally posted by Red Rocket

Why is all the testing you guys did and posted here with a 8cm, if most of the consumer turbos are going to be supplied with a 7cm?

I test what they send me, and as I stated before, if you are capable of demonstrating to the boys at FP that you can handle it, you are more then likely to be able to get an 8cm housing if its needed.

You make it sound as if we were trying to make a killing off the dyno numbers of the FP turbochargers. If you've ever seen how slim the margins are in FP goods, you'd know that is not the case. I would make more money promoting other snails, but these work so well that it’s brought a little excitement back to the Subaru world for me.

Originally posted by Red Rocket

I don't know, but it seems to me that 14% is a big deal when you have 2 feet of exhaust piping before it on a subaru. Of course it's not as big a deal on DSM's because the turbo is bolted to the manifold right next to the heads. Backpressure, it's not good.

The above assumption is false. The 2 feet of pipe and the horizontal layout of the motor make little difference in the required A/R of the turbine housing.



Originally posted by Red Rocket

I also managed to come across this compressor map for the GT3037-10:

They sure do look neat, but that -10 cartridge is a dog in real life. Compressor maps lie. Some of them, even ones that have Garrett stamped on them are flat out false. Turbochargers do things that are "beyond the map" every day in the real world. When real world experience conflicts with the published compressor map which should be disregarded?

Compressor maps are also only 1/2 of the story.



Originally posted by Red Rocket
As for the dig on guys that aren't fast yet - that doesn't mean we can't be fast in the future. At the rate you're going, I'll be into the 11's before you, and I'll autocross the same setup.


My point was simple. Based off of real world results with DSMs, if you want 600whp and 9 second 1/4-mile times you will want an 8cm exhaust housing. If not, it's not needed. We are not talking about running 11 second ¼ mile times, we are talking about the difference between shooting for 450-500whp and 550 to 600whp. Which camp are you really in? There seem to be a lot of people that think they are in the latter.

Nevermind. It's really not worth it.

I guess nobody cares about the GT32 - 35 turbos.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by nmyeti


You are confusing the big turbine wheel with the big turbine housing.



I thought that they both mattered for flow, correct me if I'm wrong?

I have nothing against FP, but it just seems funny that they would do all these prototypes with 8cm^2 housings, and then not be able to offer them. I think most people would like to see 7cm^2 housings tested ASAP.

On the turbine A/R, what does make a difference then, if not the additional backpressure of the exhaust layout? AVO obviously disagrees with you on the hot side requirements - they spec a mid sized hot side to a smallish compressor side (within the 3037 range). Big Al is running the same size hot side on his evo, but with a 56 trim compressor that flows about 8 lb more air. Maybe I'll dig out my fluid dynamics book tomorrow and calculate the pressure drop of the subaru manifold for the flow rates we're discussing.

As far as my goals, I'll re-state them. I want ~325-350 *dyno dynamics* whp on pump gas, using water injection, and other basic supporting mods, no internal mods - street trim. Go for a bit more power on C16. I think that is a very realistic figure for this turbo, given that it's already put down 285 whp untuned at 16 psi. 350 dyno dynamics whp is over 400 whp on the TXS dyno. I'd also like to see full boost around 3800 in 4th gear, and rev to ~7500 rpm or so. I'm going to try to take about 100 lbs off the car. That *should* be enough to get me into the mid-high 11's at least 115 mph, given my half decent driving ablity. I'm certainly not looking for 600 whp. I need to be able to autocross this car too.

Kevin

Originally posted by MY99 2.5GT
I guess nobody cares about the GT32 - 35 turbos.:rolleyes:

A little big though, huh?

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket


:lol:

Let's all be TXS and FP fanboys, yay! :lol:

If you hadn't noticed, this is a technical discussion. I personally like to know something about a product before spending $1000+ on it.

Kevin

I'm glad you noticed that this is a technical disicussion. I hope you also read the posts before mine. It seems that most people here scream rape not even knowing why, just because some else screamed. I certainly hope you're not like that. I personally have 6 turbo's done by FP ( and most were under $800) and they are still unmatched by anybody else. If you want numbers, there have been plenty posted.
And about being fans, well I am a big fan of FP because they always tooke care of me and no I'm not trying to be TX's fan (they told me flat out no when I asked them to tune my link) but I give credit when credit is due and Nathan has been providing good info that people here need to write down.

Alex...
and now a dancing banana:banana:

Muahhhahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

I snagged a great deal on a barely used XS-Engineering 500 hp turbo for $1250 from Nino's Auto Accesories! Hopefully I'll have it by Wednesday, Thursday at the latest. Since I have this Friday off, I'll put it on, have it dynoed and datalogged at the local shop, and then head up to the local dragstrip for street night...........:devil: !

I called XS about the turbo, the guy there found the specs and told me the compressor side uses a 52 trim wheel, while the exhaust side has the same specs as the the AVO500. So the compressor is the next step up from what the avo turbo's use. So I have one of the biggest bolt on turbos availble, probably compareable to the green, if not actually bigger. I hope it's possible to launch the damn thing....

Interestingly, their 450hp turbo uses the same compressor as the AVO turbos, but a .63 A/R exhaust housing. So it is actually a faster spooling turbo.

Kevin :D

sometimes I do not understand why would people put turbos that belong to big rigs into their daily driven automobiles.:p

Originally posted by zacek
sometimes I do not understand why would people put turbos that belong to big rigs into their daily driven automobiles.:p

This car is definitely not my daily driver.

Kevin

What are you going to do for fuel with that big monster?

Originally posted by DarthChicken
What are you going to do for fuel with that big monster?

Nothing this week, except a walboro pump and 100 octane. We have deltadash and datalogged the car on the dyno last weekend. I haven't gotten the logs yet, but we were seeing some fairly high IDC's on the top end, peaking at 100% around 6000 rpm - with the car bone stock. We'll see what kind of boost we can run on the stock ecu/fuel in the cooler ambient temps before the ECU shuts down the party, or things look dangerous. Basicly the same thing Clark already did, but in cooler weather.

We're not going all out this weekend, but I would like to get an xede on the car ASAP, and whip up a C16 map to use with the stock fuel system. I plan on going to water/methanon injection, so I'll get that on there and decide see what happens before deciding to upgrade the injectors.

Kevin

Do you have a fuel cut defender? If not your party may end very prematurely. Even if you do I bet that the ECU is going to freak when it starts seeing that much air flow.

From the testing Clark already did, we should be good for about 15.5-16 psi to redline, but it's cooler out here in MA than it was when they tested it in AZ. Regardless, we should be able to make about 280+ whp on the stock fuel system, but I won't know for sure until we datalog it.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
From the testing Clark already did, we should be good for about 15.5-16 psi to redline, but it's cooler out here in MA than it was when they tested it in AZ. Regardless, we should be able to make about 280+ whp on the stock fuel system, but I won't know for sure until we datalog it.

Kevin


The recently madd 295whp at redline at 16.5 psi and keep in mind this is a dyno dynamics dyno. After the test that was done on the dynos we know this will be around 340whp on most"other" dynos.

clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



The recently madd 295whp at redline at 16.5 psi and keep in mind this is a dyno dynamics dyno. After the test that was done on the dynos we know this will be around 340whp on most"other" dynos.

clark

:D Weeee!

We'll see what we can get out of my car on Friday. I'll also have an AVO intake pipe on the car, run 100 octane, and the turbo I have has a bigger hot side, so hopefully we can make it up to 300 whp!

Thanks,

Kevin

I just followed up with XS abou the turbo. It is not a 52 trim compressor, it's a 48, the guy was wrong before. So it's exactly the same as a AVO500 - go figure. I guess I get to test it out then. I will pull it apart and measure the compressor wheel if I get a chance though.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
I just followed up with XS abou the turbo. It is not a 52 trim compressor, it's a 48, the guy was wrong before. So it's exactly the same as a AVO500 - go figure. I guess I get to test it out then. I will pull it apart and measure the compressor wheel if I get a chance though.

Kevin


What I suggest is that you send the turbo to a GT dealer and have the -12 or larger Cartridge installed or at least the -12 compressor wheel. Currently you have the -10 compressor wheel and cartridge with the -12 exhaust side. You could be leaving ALOT of power on the table otherwise. It should not cost that much...

Clark

In your first post you said the 18G maxes out around 350WHP with race gas, but did you know that there are Evos with their stock 16G turbo making more than that with race gas and no nitrous so how could the 18G max out so low?

Originally posted by AZScoobie



What I suggest is that you send the turbo to a GT dealer and have the -12 or larger Cartridge installed or at least the -12 compressor wheel. Currently you have the -10 compressor wheel and cartridge with the -12 exhaust side. You could be leaving ALOT of power on the table otherwise. It should not cost that much...

Clark

Belive me Clark, I have been thinking about that that quite a bit. I need to max this one out first though.......:lol:

What exactly do you mean about the compressor wheel vs. cartridge - don't they all use the same GT30 center section?

BTW, a little birdy told me some depressing news today. All the parts in the the STI long block are the same as in the Forester XT, except for the connecting rods. That's according to the subaru parts database. Heads, cams, valves, springs, retainers - all the same. So If you're hoping to rev those heads up to 8000 rpm or so, think again. I'll bump mine up to 7500 or so, but I'll let someone else be the guniea pig on that one. A little head work is not out of the question though.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket


Belive me Clark, I have been thinking about that that quite a bit. I need to max this one out first though.......:lol:

What exactly do you mean about the compressor wheel vs. cartridge - don't they all use the same GT30 center section?

BTW, a little birdy told me some depressing news today. All the parts in the the STI long block are the same as in the Forester XT, except for the connecting rods. That's according to the subaru parts database. Heads, cams, valves, springs, retainers - all the same. So If you're hoping to rev those heads up to 8000 rpm or so, think again. I'll bump mine up to 7500 or so, but I'll let someone else be the guniea pig on that one. A little head work is not out of the question though.

Kevin

You can just buy a -12 cartridge that comes with the wheels attached. It bolts in. www.agpturbo.com can do this for you as well as Turbochargers.com. Or, it would be cheaper to get the -12 compressor wheel (if even possible) and install it.

I am not worried about reving these short blocks to 8k. The stroke is still pretty short. I have had my RA engine 700 over redline to 9000 without issue. If I had one and there was an advantage to reving it out, I would try :)


Clark

The turbo is here......

Damn, it's a big freakin' turbo alright. I sat it next to a TD04 and it positively dwarfs the thing. I am actually afraid of this car part.....:eek:

We're all set to put it on tomorrow. I'll also put on my AVO intake hose, velocity stack into the stock airbox, cut out the fender liner peice under the bumper, and I have a ball spring MBC - hopefully all these things will help the spool up. We may have to modify my godspeed downpipe to be compatable with the AVO split turbine housing. The oil line will either be drilled out, or they'll modify the AVO line, or make one up from scratch. Should be fun.

Clark, on the motor - the short block might be able to take high revs, but it sounds like the heads might not be up for the task, as many people have said before. What would you say would be a good basic (CHEAP) head upgrade - just better cams and heavier springs? Or just chuck the heads and swap to RA heads? Not that we're going to be able to rev higher in the immediate future anyway, unless we decide to put on an Autronic standalone, which we are actually considering.

Thanks,

Kevin

So the -12 compressor wheel will fit into a housing that will bolt onto a Subaru? Hmm.

Anyhoo I have seen alot that suggests the 03 JDM STi heads = the 04 USDM STI heads. Which makes sense since they are being sold in the same calander year.

Originally posted by Red Rocket

I thought that they both mattered for flow, correct me if I'm wrong?

I have nothing against FP, but it just seems funny that they would do all these prototypes with 8cm^2 housings
;)

, and then not be able to offer them.
who told you that? We have not officially released anything with specific exact "this is how it is" turbochargers yet. We have just given the market a taste of a few ideas.


I think most people would like to see 7cm^2 housings tested ASAP.
Things take time, we are working on it. We are gathering information and working on a few different idea's. We plan on offering a range of different turbo's, if only you guys knew how much R and D goes into building a hybrid you would understand why putting a final product on the shelf takes so long. I work @ FP and I don't even have one of our turbo's on my car because we are focusing so much time and energy on what you guys want, we don't have time to play. We sent some prototypes to Nathan because he has cars there begging for our turbo's, he give's us REAL feedback with hard numbers and tells us what he like's and what he doesn't. You guys get a taste of what we will be releasing, a few of you get some prototypes (Which very well may be how the production units are but who knows ;) ) and loved them. We want to bring to the Subaru market what we have brougt to the DSM market, cheap, rebuildable, upgradeable and fast turbochargers that you bolt right on and go. We only want to bring good, working products to the market. We got the interest in our turbo's (more than we thought :) ) now we are working on bringing them to your lap. We appreciate all of you guy's interest but don't put word's in our mouths or make assumption's on something that we have not even released to the market yet. You guy's will soon enough have what you want trust me :D


and now..... :banana:

Originally posted by Boost_Junkiee
who told you that?

You did, on the phone, a couple weeks ago before the information lockdown. Nathan also said it. That's why I ask. 7 cm^2 housings might be just fine, but we won't know until somebody tests one. I'm just a little put off by all the hype generated by these intital tests, when the final product will be materially different.

No matter. That GT3037 I have on my car now has a retardedly large nozzle diameter, I didn't measure it, but it's defintely BIG. The whole turbine is massive. Off boost the car is probably going to make more power than my '88 BWM 325 (2.5 L, 8:1 CR), due to the utter lack of exhaust restriction.

The compressor side is too big and the intercooler hose won't reach it. Car was down all weekend. We'll have a longer replacement hose tomorrow and will finally be able to test it out and throw it on the dyno.

Now I just need to get all the other stuff..........ASAP.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket


You did, on the phone, a couple weeks ago before the information lockdown. Nathan also said it. That's why I ask. 7 cm^2 housings might be just fine, but we won't know until somebody tests one. I'm just a little put off by all the hype generated by these intital tests, when the final product will be materially different.

Kevin Who said it would me materially different, I also do not remember stating to anyone that the 8cm housings were not available, long time to get, yes, but not available. Just so not to confuse and everyone understands. :) COngrats on your new turbo!

Originally posted by Red Rocket
The turbo is here......

Damn, it's a big freakin' turbo alright. I sat it next to a TD04 and it positively dwarfs the thing. I am actually afraid of this car part.....:eek:

We're all set to put it on tomorrow. I'll also put on my AVO intake hose, velocity stack into the stock airbox, cut out the fender liner peice under the bumper, and I have a ball spring MBC - hopefully all these things will help the spool up. We may have to modify my godspeed downpipe to be compatable with the AVO split turbine housing. The oil line will either be drilled out, or they'll modify the AVO line, or make one up from scratch. Should be fun.

Clark, on the motor - the short block might be able to take high revs, but it sounds like the heads might not be up for the task, as many people have said before. What would you say would be a good basic (CHEAP) head upgrade - just better cams and heavier springs? Or just chuck the heads and swap to RA heads? Not that we're going to be able to rev higher in the immediate future anyway, unless we decide to put on an Autronic standalone, which we are actually considering.

Thanks,

Kevin


The heads are fantastic and the cams are the same as the EJ205 cams in duration but have higher lift of 9.55/9.75. You will likely make your power peak near the 7000 redline. I would have no issue in reving to 8000 if it was worth while in terms of power output.

A set of JUN or HKS cams/springs and retainers would certainly help but at that point the motor would have to come out... I do not think it would be worth the time and or cost to go to RA heads. I would rather get the JUN cams and spring kit, some mild port work and slap it back together with some ARP studs. Although I personally would not do this either if my motor was running.. EJ's are like Bic lighters. You use them up and throw them out.

On the oil line:

What I suggest is that you take the stock flare fitting that is near the cyl head and cut it off. Then braze it on to some hard line. We have had to do this a few times now using AVO turbos on STI engines that have AVCS oil lines. A local place does this for us for around $10.



Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie
EJ's are like Bic lighters. You use them up and throw them out.
Clark


I prefer to refer to them in a toilet paper context... tareaways.

Originally posted by AZScoobie

A set of JUN or HKS cams/springs and retainers would certainly help but at that point the motor would have to come out... I do not think it would be worth the time and or cost to go to RA heads. I would rather get the JUN cams and spring kit, some mild port work and slap it back together with some ARP studs. Although I personally would not do this either if my motor was running.. EJ's are like Bic lighters. You use them up and throw them out.


Thanks Clark. That makes sense. We'll end up seeing how much exactly we can get out of the motor first, with proper engine management and supporting mods. If we can max out this turbo and make solid power to 7500 RPM, I'll be satisfied. But if the motor does go, I can justify spending a few grand for rods, pistons, and head parts.

Kevin

The turbo is on and pretty nifty. I'm only running wastegate boost right now, which turns out to be around 11-12 psi at the manifold. Spool/lag is not bad at all. Seeing full boost by around 4300 RPM or so in 3rd (third!!!) gear. When you shift at redline, you stay well within the power band and there is no perceptable lag. I should have no problem drag racing this turbo, autocrossing should be okay due to the short 2nd gear (32 mph at 4000 RPM's). Delta dash shows about 250 g/min (33 lb/min) or so peak air flow, and IDC are peaking over 100%. I haven't looked at the logs in detail yet, but I will soon. We should get a chance to put on a MBC tomorrow, and dyno the sucker. Hopefully we'll have an xede before the end of the week too, an maybe some injectors. I still need to decide on water injection or big intercooler, or both.

BTW, my stock and turboback dyno plots are up on KTR's website (the shop that's helping me out), you can see them here:

http://www.ktrperformance.com/services/Dyno_Graphs/graph_STI_stock.htm

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
The turbo is on and pretty nifty. I'm only running wastegate boost right now, which turns out to be around 11-12 psi at the manifold. Spool/lag is not bad at all. Seeing full boost by around 4300 RPM or so in 3rd (third!!!) gear. When you shift at redline, you stay well within the power band and there is no perceptable lag. I should have no problem drag racing this turbo, autocrossing should be okay due to the short 2nd gear (32 mph at 4000 RPM's). Delta dash shows about 250 g/min (33 lb/min) or so peak air flow, and IDC are peaking over 100%. I haven't looked at the logs in detail yet, but I will soon. We should get a chance to put on a MBC tomorrow, and dyno the sucker. Hopefully we'll have an xede before the end of the week too, an maybe some injectors. I still need to decide on water injection or big intercooler, or both.

BTW, my stock and turboback dyno plots are up on KTR's website (the shop that's helping me out), you can see them here:

http://www.ktrperformance.com/services/Dyno_Graphs/graph_STI_stock.htm

Kevin


Thats a crap load of air for 12 psi Kevin. That turbo should really move some air at 20 psi or more. The Injectors are static not becuase you need larger injectors but because the map in the ECU uses MAF for load and with your 250 grams you are in the dump zone as I call it. I would throw a $299 SAFC on this thing and tune it out. It will pull the load back, remove the fuel and advance the timing. Then, When the ECu code or utec is released you can sell the SAFC.

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Thats a crap load of air for 12 psi Kevin. That turbo should really move some air at 20 psi or more. The Injectors are static not becuase you need larger injectors but because the map in the ECU uses MAF for load and with your 250 grams you are in the dump zone as I call it. I would throw a $299 SAFC on this thing and tune it out. It will pull the load back, remove the fuel and advance the timing. Then, When the ECu code or utec is released you can sell the SAFC.

Clark

Thanks Clark, we'll have an xede very, very soon hopefully to take care of the engine mangement end of things. Ami at KTR is calling Shiv tonight about it, they go way back. Hopefully that will work out for us.

Kevin

AZScoobie

I just picked up the AVO 450hp rebuilt and would like to know what the problem is with the oil line, why can it just bolt up with the stock hoses.
Also will the turbo fit with the stock intercooler.

Did you run a SAFC to control fuel on the STI you got 80whp more on or just boost it to 16psi.

FWIW
This car is used as a daily driver with lots of track days. Also I'm at 4000ft altitude.

Originally posted by Red Rocket
The turbo is on and pretty nifty. I'm only running wastegate boost right now, which turns out to be around 11-12 psi at the manifold. Spool/lag is not bad at all. Seeing full boost by around 4300 RPM or so in 3rd (third!!!) gear. When you shift at redline, you stay well within the power band and there is no perceptable lag. I should have no problem drag racing this turbo, autocrossing should be okay due to the short 2nd gear (32 mph at 4000 RPM's). Delta dash shows about 250 g/min (33 lb/min) or so peak air flow, and IDC are peaking over 100%. I haven't looked at the logs in detail yet, but I will soon. We should get a chance to put on a MBC tomorrow, and dyno the sucker. Hopefully we'll have an xede before the end of the week too, an maybe some injectors. I still need to decide on water injection or big intercooler, or both.

BTW, my stock and turboback dyno plots are up on KTR's website (the shop that's helping me out), you can see them here:

http://www.ktrperformance.com/services/Dyno_Graphs/graph_STI_stock.htm

Kevin

For reference, how much do the VF39 flow on your DD.

We saw a peak of 248 g/sec. Here's a couple datalogs of stock dyno pulls:

Manifold Absolute Pressure (psig)
Engine Speed (RPM)
Ignition Timing (°)
Mass Air Flow (grams/s)
Fuel Injection #1 Duty (%)
Knock Correction (°)
Manifold Relative Pressure (psig)
Primary Wastegate Duty Cycle (%)
Air/Fuel Sensor #1 (AFR)

Pull 1- car cool

7 1342 27 10.94 3.72 0 -7.7 6.7 14.57
16.3 1702 18.5 36.16 10.53 5 1.6 21.2 14.91
16.4 1804 21 39.51 11.55 6.5 1.9 22.7 14.91
16.7 1939 23.5 43.51 12.82 8.5 2.2 24.3 14.68
17 2076 24.5 46.43 14.17 7.5 2.5 25.1 14.45
17.3 2207 25 49.62 15.06 6 2.8 25.1 14.45
17.7 2278 24 54.02 17.01 5 3 25.1 14.45
18 2402 24.5 58.1 18.45 4 3.5 25.1 13.65
18.4 2509 23.5 64.79 20.34 4 3.9 25.9 13.54
19 2608 22.5 71.33 21.7 4.5 4.5 26.7 13.19
19.7 2727 22 78.71 24.44 4.5 5.2 27.8 12.96
20.6 2832 20 86.38 27.18 4 6.1 28.6 12.5
21.6 2930 19 93.15 30.62 5 7.3 29.8 11.82
22.8 3057 17.5 104.29 35.87 4.5 8.3 30.6 11.13
23.8 3147 17 108.85 38.94 4 9.3 31.4 11.13
24.5 3322 16.5 119.73 42.52 4 10.2 33.7 11.13
25.1 3474 17 129.39 47.44 4 10.6 40.4 11.13
26 3639 16.5 145.2 53.56 4.5 11.6 45.5 11.13
27 3653 17 151.81 56.11 6 12.3 46.3 11.13
27.4 3899 20 157.71 60.72 9 12.8 47.5 11.13
27.3 3967 23.5 160.62 60.09 10.5 12.6 48.2 11.13
27.3 4056 24.5 163.66 62.3 11.5 12.6 49.4 11.13
27.4 4177 24.5 168.82 64.16 11.5 12.6 50.6 11.13
27.6 4261 24.5 176.57 67.26 11 12.9 51.8 11.13
27.7 4380 24 180.22 71.01 11 13.1 52.9 11.13
27.9 4487 24.5 189.48 74.66 10.5 13.2 54.1 11.13
27.9 4588 25 194.76 76.34 10 13.3 54.9 11.13
28.1 4696 25.5 198.42 78.15 9.5 13.5 56.1 11.13
28.1 4791 26 206.57 80.75 9.5 13.5 56.9 11.13
28.1 4933 26 211.52 83.13 9.5 13.6 58 11.13
28.3 5043 25.5 216.51 86.06 10 13.8 59.2 11.13
28.4 5141 25.5 222.89 87.73 10 13.9 60.4 11.13
28.4 5222 25.5 225.33 89.12 10 13.9 61.6 11.13
28.4 5325 25.5 232.15 90.88 9.5 13.9 62.7 11.13
28.6 5443 25 235.15 92.89 9.5 13.9 63.5 11.13
28.6 5554 25 240.27 94.78 9.5 13.9 64.3 11.13
28.6 5662 25 239 95.42 9.5 13.9 65.1 11.13
28.6 5698 25 240.71 96.03 9 13.9 64.3 11.13
28.4 5834 25 244.99 97.08 9 13.8 63.5 11.13
28.3 5959 25.5 242 97.88 9 13.6 63.1 11.13
28.1 6059 26 245 98.24 9 13.5 62.4 11.13
28 6177 27 245.42 98.83 9 13.3 62 11.13
27.9 6248 27.5 244.99 98.64 8.5 13.2 61.6 11.13
27.7 6351 28 247.57 98.91 8 13.1 60.8 11.13
27.6 6452 29.5 245.43 97.73 7 12.9 60 11.13
27.4 6523 29.5 248.06 98.79 6.5 12.8 60 11.13
27.4 6624 30.5 247.62 98.92 5.5 12.8 59.2 11.13
27.3 6716 31 246.38 100.28 4.5 12.6 58.8 11.13
27.1 6908 32 248.07 101.68 4 12.6 58 11.13
27.1 6891 32 245.46 98.49 3 12.5 58 11.13
25.4 6964 34 232.66 87.65 2 11.3 18.8 11.13
20.9 6664 34 172.04 69.66 2.5 6.1 0 11.24
16.8 6952 39 115.48 4.45 0.5 -2.2 10.6 12.62


Pull #3 - a little heatsoak

9.6 1603 34.5 19.68 6.15 0.5 -4.9 10.2 14.57
13.5 1630 25 46.38 10.08 4 0.3 10.2 14.57
15.4 1679 19 34.25 9.31 3.5 0.7 19.2 13.88
15.7 1601 17.5 34.15 9.56 4.5 1.2 19.2 14.91
16 1626 16 34.87 10.06 4.5 1.5 19.2 15.14
16.3 1692 17 35.73 10.47 5.5 1.7 19.2 14.91
16.5 1751 18.5 38.4 11.2 6 1.9 22 14.91
16.8 1881 21 41.5 12.44 7.5 2.2 23.9 14.8
18.3 2328 22.5 56.28 16.89 4.5 3.8 25.1 14.45
18.9 2466 22 63.04 18.94 4 4.4 25.5 14.34
19.7 2581 20.5 70.1 21.47 4.5 5.2 26.3 13.77
20.6 2718 20 81.58 24.36 4 6.1 27.8 13.31
21.6 2848 18.5 89.54 29.16 4.5 7.1 29.4 12.39
22.8 3004 17.5 101.69 33.32 5 8.4 29.8 11.47
24.1 3245 16.5 108.03 39.46 4 9.6 31.8 11.13
24.8 3319 16.5 118.42 42.49 4.5 10.3 35.3 11.13
25.5 3411 16 126.04 45.85 4 11 38.8 11.13
26.1 3541 15.5 136.39 50.61 4 11.5 42.7 11.13
26.7 3658 16 144.32 53.85 5.5 12.2 45.5 11.13
27.3 3790 18.5 152.24 57.4 8 12.6 47.1 11.13
27.3 3932 21.5 155.9 58.71 10 12.6 48.2 11.13
27.3 4053 24 156.59 59.66 11.5 12.6 49.8 11.13
27.3 4103 24 163.09 61.27 11 12.8 50.6 11.13
27.4 4231 24 169.15 64.99 11 12.8 51.8 11.13
27.6 4406 24 181.52 69.56 11 12.9 52.9 11.13
27.7 4509 24.5 184.55 73.11 10.5 13.1 54.1 11.13
27.9 4670 25 193.47 75.72 10 13.3 55.3 11.13
28 4791 25.5 197.38 78.7 9.5 13.3 56.5 11.13
28 4804 25.5 199.76 78.92 9 13.5 57.6 11.13
28.1 4952 25.5 211.53 82.39 9 13.5 58.4 11.13
28.1 5058 25.5 216.15 84.17 9.5 13.6 59.6 11.13
28.3 5131 25.5 219.55 85.38 9.5 13.6 60.8 11.13
28.1 5250 25 224.61 87.35 9.5 13.6 62.4 11.13
28.3 5396 25 227.19 88.64 9 13.6 63.1 11.13
28.3 5531 24.5 234.08 92.04 9 13.6 64.3 11.13
28.3 5674 24.5 233.71 93.2 9 13.8 65.1 11.13
28.3 5714 25 237.64 93.87 9 13.6 64.3 11.13
28.1 5828 25 235.52 94.49 9 13.5 63.9 11.13
28 5961 25.5 240.27 96.64 9 13.5 63.1 11.13
28 6028 25.5 242.01 96.44 9 13.3 62 11.13
27.7 6195 27 238.15 96.47 8.5 13.1 62 11.13
27.4 6218 27.5 239.46 95.5 8 12.9 61.2 11.13
27.6 6355 28 241.61 96.26 7.5 12.8 60.4 11.13
27.4 6512 29.5 238.19 97.25 6.5 12.8 60 11.13
27.3 6601 30 238.25 95.75 5 12.6 59.6 11.13
27.1 6679 31 240.45 96.88 4 12.5 60 11.13
27.1 6842 31.5 239.99 97.79 3 12.5 58.4 11.13
27.1 6968 31.5 240.44 96.62 2.5 12.5 58.4 11.13
23.5 6957 31.5 184.56 77.18 1.5 4.8 20 11.13
22.2 7022 34.5 199.06 76.4 -0.5 8.4 27.8 11.24
18 6808 35 129.31 4.36 -1 -0.9 14.5 12.62


Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket


Thanks Clark, we'll have an xede very, very soon hopefully to take care of the engine mangement end of things. Ami at KTR is calling Shiv tonight about it, they go way back. Hopefully that will work out for us.

Kevin

Well, unfortunately the xede looks like it's not going to work out for us. At this point I'm considering playing around with a SAFC, or there is another option that might pan out, but will remain undisclosed for the moment. Clark - how do you think the ecu would react to running an AFC?

Thanks,

Kevin

why is the xede not going to work? i have been taking interest in this piece, so i would like to know its shortfalls too.

Originally posted by happasaiyan
why is the xede not going to work? i have been taking interest in this piece, so i would like to know its shortfalls too.

:lol:

It's probably not going to work out for us. Nothing to do with the product, there are other reasons. PM me if you want details.

Kevin

Originally posted by AZScoobie
I would throw a $299 SAFC on this thing and tune it out. It will pull the load back, remove the fuel and advance the timing. Then, When the ECu code or utec is released you can sell the SAFC.

Clark

BTW, where can you get a S-AFC II for $299, I've seen $315, but not $299. Or maybe we should go straight to apexi usa.

On the tune - I assume there will be some sore of "sweet spot" to be arrived at. Doesn't the sti still calculate manifold air temp? So if you pull out too much MAF signal vs. what the ecu sees on the MAP sensor, the ECU will think the intake charge is fairly hot and give you poor timing. I guess you need to find a spot where the ecu is seeing fairly stock conditions - which we already know what they are. I guess we could throw a FCD on there also, to trim down the MAP signal a bit.....hummm.

I'll have to ask the guys at the shop if they have any old unichips laying around - they have the programming software and we might be able to rig one up to suit our needs......wouldn't that be funny.....:lol:

Kevin

Originally posted by happasaiyan
why is the xede not going to work? i have been taking interest in this piece, so i would like to know its shortfalls too.

The shortfall is that they are backordered a couple of weeks.

Shiv

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


The shortfall is that they are backordered a couple of weeks.

Shiv

And I'm not up for paying $700+ for something I'm only going to use for 3 months.

Kevin

Here's another data point. I just got off the phone with Guy at KTR, he was looking at some of my datalogs from yesterday. At one of the peak flow points it pumped 266 g/sec of air @ 6750 RPM, at 12.5 psi of boost, IDC at 103% (but not maxed out).

Poor timing: 26 degrees with only like +2 degrees of knock correction timing . Compared to my stock baseline, that's weaker base timing at that RPM - the timing map is probably a little soft up there....hum. The ECU had just been reset, so the midrange knock correction was really weak too, around +2 degrees.

Kevin

We had my car on the dyno yesterday, and I was debating on if I should post results yet. Now, here we go:

Currently I have on my car an XS500 turbo, Joe-p MBC, Godspeed downpipe and kakimoto-r catback (modified to be 3" straight through), and an AVO intake pipe.

We made 247 whp at around 5500 Rpm's, at about 14.7 psi of boost. Boost tapered to 13.5 psi by redline. So only 4 hp more than I made with just a turboback, and some boost creep to around 15.5 psi. That's the bad news. The good news it that the powerband is dead flat to redline....I mean dead flat. So we have 245 whp, +/- 2 whp, from like 5400 to 7200 RPM.........:D 245 whp at redline is 50 more whp than stock at redline! Needless to say, the car pulls hard all the way to redline now.

The injectors are maxed out at just short of 6000 rpms. AFR bottoms out there at like 10.4:1, then climbs to roughly 10.6:1 at redline. Rich enough, but we didn't want to push any harder on 93 octane. We didn't have deltadash available that day, so I have no idea on the timing. I am going to swing by the shop and do some datalogging tomorrow, to see how "ticked off" the stock ecu is about the car flowing 270+ g/sec of air at redline, and how bad the ignition timing is.

I've go a much better idea on lag now too. We made a 15+ psi boost spike on spoolup at 4000 rpms in 4th gear on the dyno........:eek:

On the steet, here's what I can remember from a little testing:

- It reaches 15 psi by 3000 rpm in 6th gear if you punch it at 2000 rpm.

- It reaches 15 psi by 3500 rpm in 5th from a ~2700 rpm punch.

- As on the dyno, 15 psi by 4000 in 4th if you start at 3000. A 3500 punch will give you full boost by 4300.

- 3rd gear you can get full boost by 4300 rpm from a 3500 punch.

- 2nd gear, full boost by 4500 from a 3500 punch.

So the turbo is very streetable. In fact, I don't think it's much laggier than the VF29 I had on my WRX - but that was running stock boost control and a more restrictive exhaust. Once you get it going, and shift at redline, it drops right back into the meat of the power band.

At this point, I have pretty much decided to install a SAFC II and a FCD on my car as basic engine management for the next couple months. The FCD works as a MAP signal modifier, and the SAFC will be used to control MAF signal (of course), and tweak fueling. If I can keep the signals from these sensors in areas the ecu likes, it should deliver good timing. We will deliver enough fuel by bigger injectors, upping the base fuel pressure, leaning out with C16 or water/methanol injection, or some combination of those options. Then tune it all up on the dyno with wideband O2, and deltadash. I think that should work alright, until we can get ecutek. We still have another far superior option we are waiting to hear back on though.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
We made 247 whp at around 5500 Rpm's, at about 14.7 psi of boost. Boost tapered to 13.5 psi by redline. So only 4 hp more than I made with just a turboback, and some boost creep to around 15.5 psi. That's the bad news.

I wouldn't consider that to be that bad of news. You're probably not seeing much gain in efficiency at that flow level by going to the big turbo. Once you get some fuel control and can crank up the boost you'll probably look like this guy :banana:

Originally posted by driggity


I wouldn't consider that to be that bad of news. You're probably not seeing much gain in efficiency at that flow level by going to the big turbo. Once you get some fuel control and can crank up the boost you'll probably look like this guy :banana:

Well, we're defintely making more power with less boost, which is always a good thing. The big turbo is already pumping alot more at on the top end, I'd estimate we are pushing ~275 g/sec of air near redline at 13.5 psi, based on the what we saw at 12.5 psi. That's about 30 g/sec more air than stock at redline, no wonder we're seeing more power.

Kevin

Red Rocket, you might be able to get away with leaning it out even w/o better gas. So far I'm fine at 11:1 in the upper range, but that was after a reset so timing was a little soft. Going to really start tuning once the ECU has a chance to get its ****e together.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
Red Rocket, you might be able to get away with leaning it out even w/o better gas. So far I'm fine at 11:1 in the upper range, but that was after a reset so timing was a little soft. Going to really start tuning once the ECU has a chance to get its ****e together.

What do you mean by "tuning"......what are you running on the car?

Thanks,

Kevin

Trying out a Unichip to see how it works with the STi.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
Trying out a Unichip to see how it works with the STi.

:lol:

I think I suggested that about 10 posts ago. My shop has unichip tuning capablity I think.......

BTW, when's your AVO500 coming in?

Kevin

Well supposedly it left AU this week. Never mind that it supposedly was in the shipment comming in.

It looks like the unichip will be great for those people who are friendly with the unichip dealer, as its cheap and not that far off the big name tuning aids like UTEC. I'd say that unless you set and forget the unichip is not for anyone who would have to mail it off for a retune. Then a gettobox like the SAFC is nicer even if it lacks the total feature set.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
Well supposedly it left AU this week. Never mind that it supposedly was in the shipment comming in.

It looks like the unichip will be great for those people who are friendly with the unichip dealer, as its cheap and not that far off the big name tuning aids like UTEC. I'd say that unless you set and forget the unichip is not for anyone who would have to mail it off for a retune. Then a gettobox like the SAFC is nicer even if it lacks the total feature set.

"ghetto box" :lol:

At least the SAFC doesn't have the stigma of the unichip.... :lol:

I'll ask the guys tomorrow if they have any kicking around, and if we can adapt one to my needs. I am sure as hell not going to put a diode voltage clamp on the MAP sensor, that's for sure.

Thanks,

Kevin

from my understanding the unichip lacks a boost cut removal feature. Which is my main objection to it.

I think what I am going to do is run it for tuning mods for now, and "touchup" tuning once the reflashes are out, and just use a reflash for main tuning.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
from my understanding the unichip lacks a boost cut removal feature. Which is my main objection to it.


Right. Most tuners use a diode clamp to flatline boost at like 13 psi. So the ecu freaks out. I think it should be better off with a HKS FCD type reduction on the signal.

Kevin

I got the turbo for you the new state of the art Garret GT Series turbo. True ceramic ball bearings. Get the GT3040 or 35R. Check out Dan "God" (His website is Godspeedinc.com) on clubwrx.net. He has done a ton of things to his STi. Also is addind GT35R turbo and 850cc injectors already had FMIC, BC, FM, Turbo back exhaust, & intake Blitz SUS. These GT series turbos are state of the art very bada@@.

On Honda-tech.com they have the GT3040 turbo on a SR20DET 92 240sx. Made 539WHP on stock internals. The turbo when shut off at an idle spun for 45-50 seconds.

Do the research this is the turbo.

My buddy is putting this turbo on his 01 Integra GSR. He is getting it from Full-Race.com. 350HP at the wheel he is going to get.

Dan "God" is going to go for 600HP with the GT35R turbo. Email him with questions and his opinion. He can probably get the turbo for you. Down the road this is the turbo I am getting want 500/500.

Matt

Here is Garret's website and them describing their Gt Series turbos in depth:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/kits/basics_index.html

HERE IT IS READ WHAT GOD SAYS:

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=27403

Originally posted by PA04STI
I got the turbo for you the new state of the art Garret GT Series turbo. True ceramic ball bearings. Get the GT3040 or 35R. Check out Dan "God" (His website is Godspeedinc.com) on clubwrx.net. He has done a ton of things to his STi. Also is addind GT35R turbo and 850cc injectors already had FMIC, BC, FM, Turbo back exhaust, & intake Blitz SUS. These GT series turbos are state of the art very bada@@.


Seriously man, lets not be too much of a fanboy here......:lol:

I know what god is doing. He doesn't even have the turbo installed yet, if he even has the turbo. And he's going to use a piggyback to tune it. Christ. The only reason I'm considering a piggyback is that reflashes and PNP standalone's are not availabe yet, and it's only very temporary. If I was going as radical as his setup, I would not hesitate for a second to do a custom standalone install.

If you had read the rest of this thread, you would have noticed that the turbo I put on is a bolt on version of the GT3037-10. Yes, a full on gin-u-ine garret center cartrige is used, along with a T04E compressor cover and a custom turbine casting. I can get it rebuilt with a -11 or -12 compressor wheel, the -12 (56 trim) wheel is good for 55 or so lb/min. The exhaust side is plenty big to support that.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket


along with a T04E compressor cover

Actually I don't think it's a true T04E compressor cover you are getting. As far as i know those are only offered with 2.75 or 3-inch inlets.

They are also large enough that you'll end up with the compressor cover touching the TGV sensor on the back of the manifold. Odds are, if it bolts on, it’s not using a T04E compressor cover.


-Nathan

Originally posted by nmyeti


Actually I don't think it's a true T04E compressor cover you are getting. As far as i know those are only offered with 2.75 or 3-inch inlets.

They are also large enough that you'll end up with the compressor cover touching the TGV sensor on the back of the manifold. Odds are, if it bolts on, it’s not using a T04E compressor cover.


-Nathan

Well, that's what Clark said, so maybe he wants to chime in and confirm that. It certainly looks like they machined down the 2.75" inlet to make it work with a 56mm inlet pipe. The T04S that normally comes on the GT37 compressor would certainly not work, nice 4" inlet. So they took the 2.75" TO4E and machined it to fit the GT37 48 trim wheel. I did take off the compressor cover and measure the wheel, it had the dimensions claimed. If you have some overall measurements for the housing, I would be able to check it.

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
If you have some overall measurements for the housing, I would be able to check it.

Kevin

Nevermind, I found some:

http://64.225.76.178/catalog/inst_dimensions.html

I'll check tomorrow.

Kevin

Mind you a GT35 is going to be too big for all but the most insane EJ motors. NMYeti was playing with one on his 2.5L wrx and was having massive surge problems.

Now get a 6cyl and you might be talking.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
NMYeti was playing with one on his 2.5L wrx and was having massive surge problems.



99% sure I've fixed that with the new cams. If the project ever goes back together, I’ll put the 35R back on just to be sure, but based off the HP numbers I hit at the boost levels I was running on the dyno I should be well to the right of the surge line.

Without cams, forget it.


Red:
I don't think you can turn down a 2.75 T04e compressor cover to the 2.2 or 2.3-inch inlet required for a bolt on Subaru application. We have to move the location of the turbo to fit a T04E or T04S cover on a Subaru.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Originally posted by nmyeti


Actually I don't think it's a true T04E compressor cover you are getting. As far as i know those are only offered with 2.75 or 3-inch inlets.

They are also large enough that you'll end up with the compressor cover touching the TGV sensor on the back of the manifold. Odds are, if it bolts on, it’s not using a T04E compressor cover.


-Nathan

Nathan,

I checked the dimension "A" on the drawings above, looks spot on. You are very observant on the TGV's, there is about 3/16" clearance between them and that part of the compressor. The AVO pipe is a very tight fit also.

Kevin

Oooh good, wonder if the US STi cams are enough. More lift but less duration than the RA ones.

Not going there though on the STi. Maybe something else though.

Originally posted by Red Rocket


Nathan,

I checked the dimension "A" on the drawings above, looks spot on. You are very observant on the TGV's, there is about 3/16" clearance between them and that part of the compressor. The AVO pipe is a very tight fit also.

Kevin

I am more interested in "F, B, and what is essentially J, but on the compressor cover only."

I have a T04E compressor cover in the shop. I'll shoot a few pictures and get some measurements for it. Even with a smaller GT (the GT centers are shorter then conventional bearing) center section that you'll have slim to NO chance of getting a real T04E compressor cover in there unless they have done something weird with the exhaust housing to set it farther back away from the intake manifold.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Red rocket, Sorry for no replys. For some reason I no longer got Email on this thread.

The Compressor cover is a To4E unit. There are many different versions. This one is the "garrett Airesearch" version. 4 inch inlet would be nice but, we all know it will not fit.

I am going to drop mine off at Ben's in the next day or two and he can offer more input. I am going to stuff the largest cartridge I can in this thing. A local had the GT30R -15 and its spooling up nice so I am not worried... Depending on what Ben says I might just use this. The car was trapping 116-117 mph in the worst conditions the other week with my 1820 with Top mount and stock airbox.. All I am after is 120's and I know this turbo will do it. I am going to add in an FMIC and short ram and retune it. I just dont feel like running 25-30 psi on this RA motor and I know thats what its going to take to eclipse 500hp. I love this motor so much I just simply do not want to blow it up :)

Red, The numbers seem soft but that is a Dyno dynamics dyno... What does a stock STI do on that dyno? You need to get the boost up to 17. Running that GT wheel at those low boost pressures is a real waste of a good turbo. I think the SAFC and the FCD along with some good fuel is probably going to work out for you until the Utec or other option is out. Its really all you can do... When you pull some of that fuel out the IDCs will drop and you will get some of the advance back. Obviously be carefull.. Its the old school way of doing things and its not ideal but can work... You seem to have a good handle this this concept..

You do not need alot of advance up top. Your new turbo has a lot lower Preturbine back pressure so the effects of EGR are minimized. This stops the need or the ability to run alot of advance. Do not compare stock turbo logs and throw out any experience with EJ205 ignition curves. Also keep in mind that you have have ignition correction in the high RPM ranges on this ECU.. Next time you are in 4th gear at 6000+ keep this in mind :(

Its very interesting how the US STI's power band changes with a turbo that can flow some exhaust. Its like a table 5000-7000 and holds almost the same power... I cant wait to be able to manipulate the AVCS like I can on the JDM ECU in my Car now.

We will know how strong the blocks are soon. We are building two in my garage now. Both using V7 STI heads with the 2.5 shortblock. One has a 20G and nitrous the other has a Garrett T68. Should be fun!


Good luck and keep us updated!



Clark

http://www.turboxs.com/_images/txsgtrturbo.JPG

http://www.turboxs.com/_images/txsutecgtrkit.JPG

Standard T04E compressor cover.

No way it's even close to that size.

Clark,

Thanks again for the input. I wussed out and was afraid to push the boost any further on pump gas, that's why the power was soft - what do you expect from 14.7 psi tapering to 13.5 psi! It does have an excellent powerband though, making about 20-25 whp peak over stock, and 50 whp over stock at redline. I still need to go and datalog the car with the new setup.

I think we will try to rig up a unichip some time in the next two weeks. I need to stop by the shop tomorrow and talk to Ami. I also need a unichip manual to go over myself, and I need to figure out if there's anything I want to do different (such as with the MAP clamp vs. FCD). I can always just use the Unichip for fuel control, and use a FCD to trick the ecu's MAP readings. Then just make very minor tweaks on the timing as needed.

I'd like to get in an order for a water injection system ASAP, I've decided to install a WI setup now, before going to bigger injectors and a FMIC. Between leaning the car out to 12:1, and injecting 50/50 methanol/water, I would think the stock fuel system should be more than adiquate at substantially higher boost, like 18 psi or so. Considering the with WI, you inject 10-15% water for the amount of fuel injected, and then add 10-15%methanol on top of that - that should allow a considerable amount of fuel to be pulled out via the unichip. Maybe install an adjustable FPR and bump up the base fuel pressure, if I need a little more fuel.

Also, let us know how those 2.5 short blocks hold up!

Nathan - it's tough to get a sense of scale from those pictures, but that is what my compressor housing looks like. That must be a 3" inlet though. The inlet on mine is much smaller relative to the rest of the snail, and there is a flat area around it where machining has been done. I'll take some pics tomorrow.

Kevin

BTW, here's Clark's pic of the AVO450 from the beginning of the thread:

http://www.wishbone.audi0.com/~clark/images/sti/turboswap/DSC02004.jpg

You can tell the inlet area was machined down quite a bit. My compressor cover is polished on the XS500 turbo, however, and has no markings.

Kevin

Originally posted by nmyeti
[IMG]

No way it's even close to that size.





Confirmed by turbo builder to be a To4E cover from the picture. Jeff has "to4" housing listed. Lip is machined down to accept the inlet hose. I would not try to fit one with a stock inlet pipe. The more I looked into this there must be 20-30 To4E housings. Different AR's. Different Cast groups, Slightly different angles for certain applications, design revs ect... When I get my turbo over to Ben I will know more on exactly what it is.


Here is the same cover - To4E
http://store4.yimg.com/I/cheapturbo_1750_941297


here are some pics from jeff's site of his AVO500 which is the exact same GT30-10 compressor and housing. Notice his is different the the one in the picture I took of the AVO450...



VF22 left - AVO500 right. Clearly marked "t04"

http://www.wrxworld.com/projects/AVOTurbo/AVOtComp1.jpg

Another angle showing the bend in the compressor housing needed for this thing to clear the bell housing.



http://www.wrxworld.com/projects/AVOTurbo/AVOtComp5.jpg


Cya

CT

I have a AVO 450 as I've said before. It has a different compressor cover than these 2. Still a A/R 0.6 all looks the same.
If anyone can host some of my pics of it PM me with you email.

4 things I'm still unsure of.

(1)How much larger is the compressor inlet on the AVO that stops the stock intake hose from going over it.
or How big is the VF39 inlet outside diameter. The inlet hose fits over.

(2) I can't see the problem with the oil line that was mentioned earlier. Why can't you use the stock oil line with an inverted flare fitting that connects to the garrett centre with a little machining. Please help me here.

(3)Will the stock intercooler connect upto the AVO.(I live in the frozen north)

(4)Does infact the exhaust housing hit the TGV cover

Thanks

1. The inlet is larger to where if you are putting over a samco you have to fight a little. You could probably force a stock over the top but why?

2. The oil line is not an issue on non AVCS cars. On AVCS cars the oil line on the back of the engine splits into the AVCS system so you cannot just replace the stock turbo oil line. You need to cut and weld the AVO fitting onto the stock one... I have a local shop do this for me for $10.

3. Stock IC will work but again why? Flow rating of this turbo will be hindered by the stock IC...

4. I have never see the exhaust housing hit the TGV cover with these.. Thats new to me. They are a tight fit for sure.. sometimes you have to losen the compressor and rotate it a bit to get it to fit.


email me the picture and I will host it for you. C_turner@ix.netcom.com

Clark

Originally posted by Wombat North
I have a AVO 450 as I've said before. It has a different compressor cover than these 2. Still a A/R 0.6 all looks the same.
If anyone can host some of my pics of it PM me with you email.

4 things I'm still unsure of.

(1)How much larger is the compressor inlet on the AVO that stops the stock intake hose from going over it.
or How big is the VF39 inlet outside diameter. The inlet hose fits over.

(2) I can't see the problem with the oil line that was mentioned earlier. Why can't you use the stock oil line with an inverted flare fitting that connects to the garrett centre with a little machining. Please help me here.

(3)Will the stock intercooler connect upto the AVO.(I live in the frozen north)

(4)Does infact the exhaust housing hit the TGV cover

Thanks

Clark thanks for the quick reply.

You asked a few why's
FWIW
I live in Canada with -30f temp and 4000ft plus altitude.
(1) Intercooler cooling is not needed as much as Texas.

(2) UTEC will not be available till end of year maybe march 04. So only 16psi max till then. I'm first on the list for UTEC BTW.

(3) I use this car as a daily driver so 360 crank HP at this altitude will do till cheaper injectors and UTEC become available. I have maybe 290hp crank now with ebc/exhaust. First 4 gears with the VF39 making only 12psi maybe 270hp crank.

(4)The insurance companies void insurance with mods up here. Got to hide swaybars etc with underbody tar. FMIC game over.:furious:

Again thanks,
Mark

Alright, finally got to do some logging today. I had cranked dow the boost from where it was on the dyno, and made a 2-3-4 pull:



RPM Clnt Speed Timg IAT MAF Throt IDC Knk Cor MAP VVT R VVT L A/F BsTmng
4133 194 34 40 106 17.47 11.4 7.05 0 -10.7 7 6 14.11 40
4120 194 33 41.5 106 21.41 13.7 7.91 0 -10.2 7 7 14.8 41.5
4155 194 33 44.5 106 24.53 14.5 8.86 0 -9.6 7 7 14.57 44.5
4121 194 33 44.5 106 24.82 14.5 8.79 0 -9.6 7 7 14.45 44.5
4134 194 33 44 106 24.18 14.1 8.82 0 -9.7 6 7 14.68 44
4106 194 33 44 106 24.27 14.1 8.76 0 -9.7 7 7 14.45 44
4107 194 33 44 106 24.2 14.5 8.76 0 -9.7 6 6 14.68 44
4196 194 33 46 106 32.8 18 10.74 0 -8.4 6 6 14.68 46
4306 194 33 37.5 106 91.79 100 27.56 4.5 -0.1 5 5 14.57 33
4626 194 34 32.5 106 120.58 100 34.54 2.5 2.5 4 5 13.54 30
4960 194 34 30.5 106 166.45 100 60.32 7 6.7 4 4 11.93 23.5
5472 194 35 25.5 106 229.46 100 86.38 9 12 0 0 11.13 16.5
5852 194 38 25.5 106 239.81 100 89.89 9 12 0 0 11.13 16.5
6312 194 38 28 104 248.4 100 92.91 8 11.6 0 0 11.13 20
6742 194 43 31 104 254.55 100 97.8 5.5 11.6 0 0 11.13 25.5
6301 194 48 24 104 16.58 9.8 4.03 0 -9.4 0 0 11.82 24
5748 194 48 25.5 102 14.53 9.4 7.36 0 -11.5 0 0 14.34 25.5
5122 194 52 36.5 102 134.44 100 46.99 3 2.3 0 0 14.22 33.5
5260 194 54 28.5 102 194 100 72.94 7.5 8 0 0 11.7 21
5585 194 54 24.5 102 239.81 100 94.13 9.5 13.1 0 0 11.13 15
5799 194 56 25 100 241.49 100 91.54 9 12.5 0 0 11.13 16
6042 196 59 26.5 100 244.89 100 92.8 9 11.9 0 0 11.13 17.5
6326 196 59 27.5 100 249.16 100 95.81 8.5 11.9 0 0 11.13 19
6504 196 63 29 100 256.18 100 97.13 7.5 12.2 0 0 11.13 21.5
6665 196 63 31 99 261.46 100 99.53 6.5 12.3 0 0 11.13 24.5
6930 196 67 32 99 259.09 100 100.53 5 12.3 0 0 11.13 27
6939 196 70 34.5 99 175.73 31.8 4.44 2 3.6 0 0 11.7 32.5
6543 196 70 24 97 13.89 9.4 4.19 0 -10.4 0 0 14.22 24
6110 196 73 41.5 97 129.31 91.8 43.01 0 -0.1 0 0 20.31 41.5
5354 196 74 30.5 97 181.2 100 69.68 5.5 6.4 0 0 14.45 25
5565 196 74 25 97 243.43 100 96.16 9.5 12.9 0 0 11.93 15.5
5652 196 76 25 95 239.1 100 91.63 9.5 12.9 0 0 11.13 15.5
5825 196 78 25 95 240.35 100 93.2 9 12.5 0 0 11.13 16
5906 196 78 25.5 95 243.71 100 91.97 9 12.3 0 0 11.13 16.5
6040 196 80 26 95 250.18 100 95.34 9 12.3 0 0 11.13 17
6185 196 80 26.5 93 251.44 100 96.32 9 12.5 0 0 11.13 17.5
6301 196 83 27 93 254.87 100 98.12 8.5 12.6 0 0 11.13 18.5
6421 196 86 27.5 93 257.45 100 100 8.5 12.6 0 0 11.13 19
6548 196 86 29 93 262.87 100 101.97 8 12.8 0 0 11.13 21
6639 196 88 30 91 262.78 100 100.56 7 12.6 0 0 11.13 23
6700 196 91 31.5 91 265.59 100 101.48 6.5 12.6 0 0 11.13 25
6805 196 91 31.5 91 267.92 100 101.62 5.5 12.6 0 0 11.13 26
6943 196 93 32 90 258.87 80.8 100.71 5 12.5 0 0 11.13 27



I decided that boost was a little too low, and the feul system had more head room, so I cranked up the boost a little bit, a little bit too much:



RPM Clnt Speed Tmng IAT MAF Throt IDC Knk Cor MAP VVT R VVT L A/F BsTmng
1902 180 26 33 82 10.79 7.5 4.06 -1 -9.6 9 10 14.22 34
1906 180 26 32.5 82 9.63 6.7 3.66 -1 -9.9 9 9 13.88 33.5
1938 180 26 37.5 82 44.3 32.9 10.75 -1 -3.2 10 10 13.65 38.5
2136 180 28 27.5 82 45.53 100 12.76 7 0.9 18 18 14.57 20.5
2208 180 28 27 82 47.58 100 13.66 6 1.3 17 17 14.57 21
2314 180 29 26.5 82 51.61 100 15.3 5 1.7 16 16 14.57 21.5
2413 180 30 25.5 82 57.21 100 16.47 4 2.3 15 15 14.68 21.5
2520 180 30 24 82 62.79 100 18.28 4 3 14 16 14.22 20
2627 180 33 22.5 82 69.04 100 20.18 3 3.6 15 16 14 19.5
2726 180 34 21.5 82 75.66 100 22.1 3.5 4.5 15 15 13.77 18
2871 180 34 19.5 82 84.51 100 26.34 3 5.2 15 15 12.39 16.5
2989 180 37 19.5 82 94.77 100 29.96 5 6.4 16 16 11.59 14.5
3122 180 39 18 82 105.14 100 35.3 4.5 7.5 15 15 11.13 13.5
3275 180 39 16.5 82 118.68 100 40.52 4 9.1 15 15 11.13 12.5
3413 180 43 14.5 82 138.96 100 48.79 4 11 15 15 11.13 10.5
3639 180 43 12.5 81 166.54 100 60.56 4 13.8 15 15 11.13 8.5
3797 180 46 16.5 81 189.33 100 69.66 6.5 16.4 13 13 11.13 10
3984 180 49 21 81 192.54 100 70.55 9 16 11 11 11.13 12
4187 180 49 21.5 81 198.97 100 73.25 9 15.8 9 9 11.13 12.5
4391 180 54 21 81 214.95 100 79.61 8 16 9 9 11.13 13
4597 181 58 22 81 224.06 100 84.34 8.5 16 9 9 11.13 13.5
4842 181 58 23 79 230.34 100 86.77 9 15.7 9 9 11.13 14
4978 181 62 23.5 79 243.47 100 91.32 9 16 7 7 11.13 14.5
5156 181 66 23.5 79 251.65 100 93.49 9 16.1 0 0 11.13 14.5
5345 181 66 23 79 259.98 100 98.06 8.5 16.1 0 0 11.13 14.5
5544 181 70 22 79 266.1 100 101.7 8.5 16.1 0 0 11.13 13.5
5688 181 70 22 79 273.2 100 104.36 8.5 16.1 0 0 11.13 13.5
5875 181 74 22.5 77 276.1 100 106.54 9 15.8 0 0 11.13 13.5
5998 181 79 23.5 77 277.07 100 106.2 9.5 15.7 0 0 11.13 14
6216 181 79 25.5 77 281.55 100 108.73 9 15.5 0 0 11.13 16.5
6320 181 83 26 77 285.08 100 109.2 8.5 15.4 0 0 11.13 17.5
6500 181 86 27 77 287.62 100 109.54 8 15.4 0 0 11.13 19
6620 181 86 28.5 77 289.11 100 110.15 7.5 15.2 0 0 11.13 21
6796 181 89 31 77 288.06 100 110.18 7 15.1 0 0 11.13 24
6554 181 92 42 77 14.97 10.6 4.19 0 -5.1 0 0 11.13 42
6820 181 92 40 77 14.57 9.8 4.36 0 -10.6 0 0 13.31 40
6582 181 94 24 75 15.94 9.8 4.21 0 -11 0 0 14.22 24
6112 181 94 24 77 15.47 9.8 3.91 0 -11.2 0 0 20.31 24



Tha was just a little too hot for my tastes...110% IDC.....:eek: , and almost 290 g/sec of air, or over 38 lb/min air flow. I think the MAF sensor is almost maxed out. Spool up is AWESOME, you can see the 16.5 psi boost spike at 3800 RPMS!

I turned it down a bit and then made a 3rd gear pull:



RPM Clnt Speed Timg IAT MAF Throt IDC Knk Cor MAP VVT R VVT L A/F BsTmng
2861 183 35 24 82 12.62 8.2 1.83 0 -10.2 10 10 20.31 24
2856 183 33 24 82 12.25 8.2 1.83 0 -10.2 10 9 20.31 24
2836 183 31 24 82 12.41 8.2 1.81 0 -10.2 9 9 20.31 24
2811 183 31 25 82 12.09 8.2 4.8 0 -10.3 10 10 20.31 25
2906 183 31 33 82 61.62 100 17.98 3.5 0.1 12 12 14.22 29.5
3085 183 31 31 82 72 100 21.72 4.5 1.3 14 14 13.54 26.5
3286 183 31 30 82 83.9 100 25.24 5.5 2.6 14 15 13.08 24.5
3468 183 31 27 82 100.31 100 31.07 6.5 4.4 15 14 12.5 20.5
3705 183 34 23.5 82 126.62 100 39.52 7.5 6.8 14 14 11.59 16
3977 183 34 24 82 156.72 100 46.67 11 10.2 11 11 11.24 13
4339 183 38 23 82 199.54 100 76.82 10 14.1 9 9 11.13 13
4559 183 42 22.5 82 221.78 100 84.62 8.5 15.5 9 8 11.13 14
4877 183 42 24 82 234.85 100 87.4 9.5 14.9 8 8 11.13 14.5
5261 183 47 23.5 81 250.68 100 94.27 9.5 15.1 0 0 11.13 14
5627 183 47 23 81 261.29 100 100.83 9 15.2 0 0 11.13 14
5945 183 53 23 81 274.56 100 106.53 9.5 15.4 0 0 11.13 13.5
6148 183 58 25 81 278.54 100 106.23 9 14.9 0 0 11.13 16
6378 183 58 26.5 81 282.03 100 107.48 8.5 14.7 0 0 11.13 18
6660 183 63 30 81 279.96 100 106.56 7.5 14.5 0 0 11.13 22.5
6799 183 67 31.5 81 228.28 37.6 79.77 4 8.6 0 0 11.13 27.5
6596 183 67 24 79 14.05 9.8 4.22 0 -9.7 0 0 11.82 24


Then a pull in 4th gear:



RPM Clnt Speed Timg IAT MAF Throt IDC Knk Cor MAP VVT R VVT L A/F BsTmng
2482 185 36 24 82 11.18 7.5 1.59 0 -10.3 10 10 20.31 24
2465 183 35 24 82 11.23 7.5 1.58 0 -10.3 9 9 20.31 24
2438 183 35 24 82 11.08 7.5 1.56 0 -10.3 10 10 20.31 24
2417 183 35 24 82 11.08 7.5 1.55 0 -10.3 10 10 20.31 24
2409 183 35 24 82 11.18 7.5 1.54 0 -10.3 10 10 20.31 24
2401 183 35 35.5 82 19.3 14.1 6.15 0 -9 10 10 20.31 35.5
2410 183 34 45 82 26.83 15.7 8.23 0 -6.2 9 9 20.31 45
2484 183 34 44.5 82 26.73 15.7 9.01 0 -6.2 9 10 15.72 44.5
2518 183 34 44.5 82 29.03 18 10.21 0 -5.9 9 10 15.6 44.5
2601 183 34 30.5 82 54.76 100 18.87 3.5 0.7 12 13 14.34 27
2670 183 35 29 82 61.43 100 19.37 4 1.5 15 15 13.42 25
2775 183 35 26.5 82 68.87 100 20.13 4 2.5 16 15 13.77 22.5
2874 181 36 23.5 82 77.22 100 22.68 4 3.6 15 15 13.65 19.5
2993 181 38 21.5 82 87.95 100 25.54 5 4.8 15 16 13.08 16.5
3121 181 38 21 82 98.95 100 29.29 5 6.2 16 16 12.85 16
3315 181 41 18.5 82 112.91 100 36.06 4.5 7.7 15 15 11.93 14
3420 181 41 16.5 82 130.24 100 39.4 4 9.7 15 15 11.47 12.5
3646 181 44 12.5 81 156.66 100 57.56 4 12.2 15 15 11.24 8.5
3750 181 47 15.5 81 186.59 100 67.99 5.5 15.4 13 14 11.13 10
3938 181 47 20 81 185.82 100 67.21 9 15.7 12 11 11.13 11
4123 181 51 22.5 81 193.75 100 71.25 10 15.1 9 9 11.13 12.5
4344 181 54 21.5 81 206.7 100 76.92 8.5 15.2 10 9 11.13 13
4543 181 54 22 81 215.38 100 79.48 9 15.4 10 9 11.13 13
4771 181 58 23.5 81 228.69 100 85.49 9.5 15.1 10 9 11.13 14
4972 181 63 23.5 79 233.76 100 88.04 9.5 15.2 9 9 11.13 14
5103 181 63 23.5 79 242.22 100 90.36 9.5 15.5 0 0 11.13 14
5276 181 67 23.5 79 251.23 100 94.55 9.5 15.5 0 0 11.13 14
5459 181 67 23 79 261.9 100 98.99 9 15.5 0 0 11.13 14
5690 181 71 22.5 79 264.72 100 101.97 9 15.5 0 0 11.13 13.5
5887 181 75 23 79 269.89 100 105.5 9.5 15.4 0 0 11.13 13.5
5944 181 75 23.5 79 274.67 100 105.24 9.5 15.1 0 0 11.13 14
6103 181 79 24.5 77 275.11 100 105.46 9.5 14.9 0 0 11.13 15
6244 181 83 25.5 77 277.57 100 105.24 9 14.8 0 0 11.13 16.5
6390 181 83 27 77 280.55 100 107.69 8.5 14.9 0 0 11.13 18.5
6467 181 86 27.5 77 280.02 100 106.24 8 14.7 0 0 11.13 19.5
6693 181 89 30 77 283.54 100 108.51 7.5 14.7 0 0 11.13 22.5
6835 181 89 31 77 285.05 100 109.36 7 14.7 0 0 11.13 24
6945 181 93 31 77 277.94 88.2 106.67 6.5 14.5 0 0 11.13 24.5
6857 181 93 32 77 215.41 41.2 76.06 1.5 7.1 0 0 11.82 30.5
6761 181 94 24 77 26.6 10.2 4.33 0 -9 0 0 14.34 24
6107 183 97 24 77 15.8 9.8 3.91 0 -11.2 0 0 14.57 24
5510 183 97 24 77 15.74 9.8 3.53 0 -11.6 0 0 17.21 24



That's about it for now. The ECU seems to be running rather good timing. The base timing is down about 2 degrees across the board at the higher boost levels compared to stock, but the knock advance is giving strong values.

We should have the engine management side of things figured out in about two weeks, and I am also trying to sort out the other supporting mods.

Thanks again to the guys at KTR!

Kevin

Crazy.. That Turbo is flowing 38lbs at 15 psi! To get my 1820 to do that I have to run 1.5+ bar. Advance is not that bad... Your IDC's are high only because the Load is off the scale in the ECU. Once you get an SAFC or something to pull some of that MAF value back the IDC's will drop big time..

Clark

Here is one...

http://www.wishbone.audi0.com/~clark/images/avo450/avo3.jpg

In this pic you can clearly see the Garrett GT30 part number on the cartridge with the -10...


http://www.wishbone.audi0.com/~clark/images/avo450/av03.jpg




The rest are here:


http://www.wishbone.audi0.com/~clark/images/avo450/



C

Originally posted by AZScoobie
Crazy.. That Turbo is flowing 38lbs at 15 psi! To get my 1820 to do that I have to run 1.5+ bar. Advance is not that bad... Your IDC's are high only because the Load is off the scale in the ECU. Once you get an SAFC or something to pull some of that MAF value back the IDC's will drop big time..

Clark

Well, it is a 2.5 liter motor! :lol:

I would expect the 2.0 liter to have to run 22 psi of boost to have an equivalent air flow.

Kevin

I talked to my turbo builder, and he looked at these pictures. He says that those compressor covers are variations of the standard t04b compressor cover.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Originally posted by nmyeti
I talked to my turbo builder, and he looked at these pictures. He says that those compressor covers are variations of the standard t04b compressor cover.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com


Our turbo builders disagree :disco:

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Our turbo builders disagree :disco:

Clark

Take the turbo over to AGP since you were planning on having them rebuild it anyway. Ben had a look at the pictures and said it was a standard T04B compressor cover. I’d put my money on Ben’s assessment. I've used the B cover on these cars before and I know it fits with just a hair of clearance from the TGV sensor. The E cover is larger.



-Nathan

Originally posted by nmyeti


Take the turbo over to AGP since you were planning on having them rebuild it anyway. Ben had a look at the pictures and said it was a standard T04B compressor cover. I’d put my money on Ben’s assessment. I've used the B cover on these cars before and I know it fits with just a hair of clearance from the TGV sensor. The E cover is larger.



-Nathan


Yes. Ben will have the turbo soon so he can tell us what it is exactly. It could be a B.. The guy I showed the picture too claims its an E. I cant wait to see what Ben can do with it. A local has the 30-15 turbo on and its not that laggy...

I guess it does not really matter in term of performance?


Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie

I guess it does not really matter in term of performance?

Clark

Ben said that if it says Air Research on the cover, it’s pretty much always going to be something “old” such as the T04 or T04B covers.

It actually does matter for compressor efficiency, spool up, and ultimate flow. The compressor cover isn't a HUGE deal, but I can guarantee that the -10 and -12 cartridges would much prefer to have a nice 3 inch inlet in front of them.

The big issue is that turbochargers are very lousy at sucking air and often will not pull more then an inch or 2 of vacuum. By running a very small inlet on these turbochargers you are increasing the effective pressure ratio the turbo operates at by causing a vacuum condition at the compressor inlet.

One last thing on the mass air flow numbers you guys are seeing out of the -10 cartridge. If you really are seeing 38lbs with this turbo you only have a few lbs left of effective air flow on the compressor map since it peaks out at 44lbs/min.

Originally posted by nmyeti


Ben said that if it says Air Research on the cover, it’s pretty much always going to be something “old” such as the T04 or T04B covers.

It actually does matter for compressor efficiency, spool up, and ultimate flow. The compressor cover isn't a HUGE deal, but I can guarantee that the -10 and -12 cartridges would much prefer to have a nice 3 inch inlet in front of them.

The big issue is that turbochargers are very lousy at sucking air and often will not pull more then an inch or 2 of vacuum. By running a very small inlet on these turbochargers you are increasing the effective pressure ratio the turbo operates at by causing a vacuum condition at the compressor inlet.

One last thing on the mass air flow numbers you guys are seeing out of the -10 cartridge. If you really are seeing 38lbs with this turbo you only have a few lbs left of effective air flow on the compressor map since it peaks out at 44lbs/min.


I got a reply back from my turbo guru and was told that the inlet size is one of those things where larger is better but at this level it makes little difference. At 70+lbs yes a larger inlet would be the ticket. But sometimes you just cant fit it without doing an angle mount. On the Turbonetics website they offer the 60 series in both 4 inch and 2-3/4 inch (HiFi) compressors. On the site they mention the smaller HIFi will flow 5-10% less then the 4 inch version at MAX flow. That kinda backs what my turbo guy is saying.

I have seen the AVO450 flow 310 grams a second in the logs with deltadash at 1.4 bar. I have seen the AVO500 flow 330 (MAF is flat lined) at 1.6 bar on 2.0 ltr motors. Some error is always going to be introduced by the Intakes the cars where running. The 18G read 275 grams at 1.45 bar and the 20G read 295 grams at 1.5 bar for comparison. I would like to get the AVO450 up to 1.6-1.7 bar to see what its capable of. I guess we will find out soon enough. To bad these turbos are just so damn expensive.... But short of going to a Custom kit its the only way to get a GT30 on the car ;) And for me this is a cheap option....

Cya

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



I got a reply back from my turbo guru and was told that the inlet size is one of those things where larger is better but at this level it makes little difference. At 70+lbs yes a larger inlet would be the ticket. But sometimes you just cant fit it without doing an angle mount. On the Turbonetics website they offer the 60 series in both 4 inch and 2-3/4 inch (HiFi) compressors. On the site they mention the smaller HIFi will flow 5-10% less then the 4 inch version at MAX flow. That kinda backs what my turbo guy is saying.


2.75 will flow a lot more then 2.2 or 2.3, but we are not talking about ultimate max flow. We are talking about efficiency and pressure ratios. You can flow 65-70bls quite comfortably though a 3 inch inlet. Drop that down to a 2.3 inch inlet and things start to get choked up.

Try putting a vac gauge at the compressor inlet. You'll see what I am talking about. Turbochargers want the largest inlet they can have.

The -10 center section is only good for about 44lbs of air, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the inlet size. You are however sacrificing some efficiency and top end power by not having a real T04E compressor cover on the car. Often times the B cover seems to “hit harder” but it also chokes up on the top end much faster.

Bolt-on turbochargers are a compromise at this power level. You just have to be aware what compromises you are making. That’s why I’ve spent too much time pointing out that it’s not an E cover. The AVO turbo isn’t magical and they haven’t figured out how to make parts that don’t fit for anyone else fit for their applications. If you want a true T3/T4 or GT30 setup, you need to fabricate a kit (or purchase one) that changes the position of the turbo.

With that said, there are good bolt-on turbochargers. I am sure this is one of them, however if you are already flowing 38lbs of air, you might want to consider something larger as you are already starting to move to the right of where it’s efficient.

-Nathan

What do you do about the MAF being maxed out? Switch to a larger X section where it reads or swap in a different maf alltogether?

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
What do you do about the MAF being maxed out? Switch to a larger X section where it reads or swap in a different maf alltogether?

Personally, I'll be swapping to a different MAF.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Originally posted by nmyeti



2.75 will flow a lot more then 2.2 or 2.3, but we are not talking about ultimate max flow. We are talking about efficiency and pressure ratios. You can flow 65-70bls quite comfortably though a 3 inch inlet. Drop that down to a 2.3 inch inlet and things start to get choked up.

Try putting a vac gauge at the compressor inlet. You'll see what I am talking about. Turbochargers want the largest inlet they can have.

The -10 center section is only good for about 44lbs of air, so I wouldn’t worry too much about the inlet size. You are however sacrificing some efficiency and top end power by not having a real T04E compressor cover on the car. Often times the B cover seems to “hit harder” but it also chokes up on the top end much faster.

Bolt-on turbochargers are a compromise at this power level. You just have to be aware what compromises you are making. That’s why I’ve spent too much time pointing out that it’s not an E cover. The AVO turbo isn’t magical and they haven’t figured out how to make parts that don’t fit for anyone else fit for their applications. If you want a true T3/T4 or GT30 setup, you need to fabricate a kit (or purchase one) that changes the position of the turbo.

With that said, there are good bolt-on turbochargers. I am sure this is one of them, however if you are already flowing 38lbs of air, you might want to consider something larger as you are already starting to move to the right of where it’s efficient.

-Nathan


Good points.. If I was going to go with a fabricated setup I would choose larger then GT30. Maybe 3040 or something. The problem is that after over 2 years NOBODY MAKES THE PIPES. UR has them but they are secretive about what Turbonetics turbo they are using and refuse to devulge any information about it. Its a big marketing mistake in my opinion.. If they offered the kit in part form or a "bolt your own Garrett on with our kit" type of deal I know at least 20 people that would have it already. Those pipes and a $600 T3/T4 50 trim would blow any bolt on turbo out of the water that we have seen to date. TXS has no kit for sale and alot of us have been waiting for a year now even though both of you guys have custom setups and Phils being the "shop" car and the one that works to sell parts... I still think its a mistake to not do this and to mess around with the bolt ons... I know you guys have your reasons for not doing it yet and I understand... God (Dan) has talked about this for what 6 months? No kit out. I can count 3 other shops that claimed it would be out soon and they where working on it only to see them all either fail to come through or disapear...

Its not about MAXhp output alone.. its about cheap turbos that we can change and tune to our setups. I want two to three turbos I can swap on and off in 30 minutes....

I have a local shop that has done a few custom kits on the WRX so far. One is the T68 and one is the GT30-15. They are booked solid and where supposed to Jig up the pipes on the GT30 kit but failed to do so... Now they will need another car to build a kit on and Jig up the pipes. Big money and big time waits... I just dont want to do this unless I can get 60+ lbs worth of compressor on this thing. My setup is so horribly under turbo'd with the 1820 that just about anything I can do now to move to a larger turbo is going to be a big improvement. I am hoping Ben can get 46-50 lbs out of this AVO450. If he can I will trap 125mph and that will hold me off :disco:

If not I am going to drop the cash myself and have 20 pipes made and sell them cheap to guys like me...

Sorry for the OT.. Just venting a little.. We want the Garrett kits and we dont want Bolt on turbos that are not available, sold to people on a Ranking system or turbos that cost $2200....

Clark

Clark,
I think you have big turbo envy. ;)

But hey what do I care, my car will be ok. :D

We will offer a kit when we are ready to offer a kit. You guys think product development and production should take place overnight. It's like a bit from Willy Wonka; "I want it NOW daddy!"

I've been working on this GT kit for a log time, but frankly there is a lot more to it then pipe work. Can you even imagine the tech support nightmare releasing this "kit" with piggy back fueling and 800cc+ injectors is going to cause? I am not remotely interested in that, so we'll release it when everything else is up to par.

Besides, if I release the kit now, I have to give a good deal of my profit to Tial for their waste gate. I'd rather not have to do that.

-Nathan
497whp 447ft/lbs TXS GT30 Kit with 20psi before 4000rpms (isn’t that just a kick in the crotch?)

Originally posted by nmyeti
Clark,
I think you have big turbo envy. ;)

But hey what do I care, my car will be ok. :D

We will offer a kit when we are ready to offer a kit. You guys think product development and production should take place overnight. It's like a bit from Willy Wonka; "I want it NOW daddy!"

I've been working on this GT kit for a log time, but frankly there is a lot more to it then pipe work. Can you even imagine the tech support nightmare releasing this "kit" with piggy back fueling and 800cc+ injectors is going to cause? I am not remotely interested in that, so we'll release it when everything else is up to par.

Besides, if I release the kit now, I have to give a good deal of my profit to Tial for their waste gate. I'd rather not have to do that.

-Nathan
497whp 447ft/lbs TXS GT30 Kit with 20psi before 4000rpms (isn’t that just a kick in the crotch?)


Thats what I have been saying man... DONT SELL it as a kit like that.. This kit will blow your motor up in a milisecond. EJ205's are not up to it.. Dont offer support.. Offer the parts and let the customer decide what to do with them.. If you want to supervise and tune a car with this kit thats great.. Make them drop the car off and so you guys can do it all. Otherwise it will be a nightmare to support.

More power is not the reason to do the garrett... You can do a T3T4 turbo suited to current STG4 power levels that would run way cooler, spool faster and would have a power band as wide as Hoover damn.

Oh and Its not a kick in the crotch. Its a kick to the Bottom end of your motor when she detonated and blew up all over the place.. :eek: :( :banana: :banana: 497 is nice but it only lasted for a minute which pretty much cancels it out :confused: Ben told me about that when I saw him at the Import wars between runs in his Neon.

I am out of that game Dude... I refuse to dump another 10G's into this car just so I can beat guys on the net. I love my RA motor and I dont want her to die. But this turbo is really holding me back and I need garrett... Watching Stephen dump a Wheel barrow load of money into his wagon is a scary thing to me.. Because if that, would have happend to me, I would have done it only I would need two wheel barrows full of cash :lol:

Let see how this Budget AVO450 works and go from there...

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Oh and Its not a kick in the crotch. Its a kick to the Bottom end of your motor when she detonated and blew up all over the place.. :eek: :( :banana: :banana: 497 is nice but it only lasted for a minute which pretty much cancels it out :confused:

It didn't detonate; it cracked a sleeve from too much boost, or too much power.

It will be back and will be stronger.

-Nathan

Ok, wait! RedRocket's numbers refer to the AVO450 turbo correct?

And this turbo is a bolt-on GT30 correct?

Is this turbo is between the APS SR-40 and the SR-50?

Originally posted by zacek
Ok, wait! RedRocket's numbers refer to the AVO450 turbo correct?

And this turbo is a bolt-on GT30 correct?

Is this turbo is between the APS SR-40 and the SR-50?

:lol:

1. I have a XS Engineering 500 hp turbo, which is the same thing as a AVO500, except with a polished compressor cover.

2. This is a bolt on GT30/GT37 hybird, or commonly known as a GT3037. It has a GT30 hot side, and GT37 compressor side. Go back in the thread to get the exact specs.

3. I think it is comparable to a SR50, or even bigger, especially in the exhaust side. But I have never seen full specs on the SR50.

Kevin

Originally posted by nmyeti


It didn't detonate; it cracked a sleeve from too much boost, or too much power.

It will be back and will be stronger.

-Nathan



Hmmmm... What evidence do you have? I bet it knocked and sent a shock wave that cracked that liner... Or something got real hot and you had some pre-ignition. Was yours an open deck 2.5?

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Good points.. If I was going to go with a fabricated setup I would choose larger then GT30. Maybe 3040 or something. The problem is that after over 2 years NOBODY MAKES THE PIPES. UR has them but they are secretive about what Turbonetics turbo they are using and refuse to devulge any information about it. Its a big marketing mistake in my opinion.. If they offered the kit in part form or a "bolt your own Garrett on with our kit" type of deal I know at least 20 people that would have it already. Those pipes and a $600 T3/T4 50 trim would blow any bolt on turbo out of the water that we have seen to date. TXS has no kit for sale and alot of us have been waiting for a year now even though both of you guys have custom setups and Phils being the "shop" car and the one that works to sell parts... I still think its a mistake to not do this and to mess around with the bolt ons... I know you guys have your reasons for not doing it yet and I understand... God (Dan) has talked about this for what 6 months? No kit out. I can count 3 other shops that claimed it would be out soon and they where working on it only to see them all either fail to come through or disapear...

Its not about MAXhp output alone.. its about cheap turbos that we can change and tune to our setups. I want two to three turbos I can swap on and off in 30 minutes....

I have a local shop that has done a few custom kits on the WRX so far. One is the T68 and one is the GT30-15. They are booked solid and where supposed to Jig up the pipes on the GT30 kit but failed to do so... Now they will need another car to build a kit on and Jig up the pipes. Big money and big time waits... I just dont want to do this unless I can get 60+ lbs worth of compressor on this thing. My setup is so horribly under turbo'd with the 1820 that just about anything I can do now to move to a larger turbo is going to be a big improvement. I am hoping Ben can get 46-50 lbs out of this AVO450. If he can I will trap 125mph and that will hold me off :disco:

If not I am going to drop the cash myself and have 20 pipes made and sell them cheap to guys like me...

Sorry for the OT.. Just venting a little.. We want the Garrett kits and we dont want Bolt on turbos that are not available, sold to people on a Ranking system or turbos that cost $2200....

Clark

I just picked up on this thread, and I agree with Clark, the GT is the way to go, though it is a nightmare with all the pipework and other nickle and dime pieces.

If a "kit" were available that we could customize the turbo and trim it would out sell the NY Times!

Plus Garret is local here, and I am sure we all have a connection to get these baby's cheap!

Like the rest, I am torn between a expensive bolt on or a custom GT set up that makes real power.

Eitherway, I still need to wait to get the tuning issues resolved!

Originally posted by AZScoobie




Hmmmm... What evidence do you have? I bet it knocked and sent a shock wave that cracked that liner... Or something got real hot and you had some pre-ignition. Was yours an open deck 2.5?

Clark


Stock open deck Ej25 block with upgrade rods and pistons

Pre-ignition would have eaten the piston and spark plug before it would have destroyed the sleeve. Both of those are in tact.

I guess I would have to say that I have my ears, my fuel, and my spark plugs as evidence. It didn't detonate.

Originally posted by nmyeti



Stock open deck Ej25 block with upgrade rods and pistons

Pre-ignition would have eaten the piston and spark plug before it would have destroyed the sleeve. Both of those are in tact.

I guess I would have to say that I have my ears, my fuel, and my spark plugs as evidence. It didn't detonate.


Thats probably the weakest motor you could have put together. How bad is it? Are you going to put some liners in and slap it back together or did some water get in and lock a piston? Going 2.0?

I got the AVO450 sitting here. Taking it over to Ben tomorrow. I will let you know what we find. This guy is trashed. The housings look good but thats about it. I am praying I can fit the -12 or larger in it.

Cya

CT

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Thats probably the weakest motor you could have put together. How bad is it? Are you going to put some liners in and slap it back together or did some water get in and lock a piston? Going 2.0?

CT


Of course it was the weakest motor we could have put together. The point was to find the limits of that combo. We found them.

Under vacuum it's drawing coolant into the cylinders and shooting it out the exhaust. Under boost it's pushing exhaust into the cooling system.

I am using some of the salvageable parts and having Marco from Magnus build me a 2.5L with cast iron sleeves. I LOVE the 2.5L. It just needed cams. I also think I might have him weld me up a header and intake manifold while he is at it.

Once that’s all done, I’ll throw the big turbo back on the car. For some drag passes and then I’ll slap the GT30 back on for street use. I may get the larger A/R exhaust housing from Ben though as the torque curve started getting too peaky for my taste at higher boost levels on the GT30.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

What if its just a Headgasket? Its possible even with the water out the exhaust. Might want to do a leak down. Lots of times on the EJs you can see the headgasket leaking at the seam from head to block.

Cya

CT


Originally posted by nmyeti



Of course it was the weakest motor we could have put together. The point was to find the limits of that combo. We found them.

Under vacuum it's drawing coolant into the cylinders and shooting it out the exhaust. Under boost it's pushing exhaust into the cooling system.

I am using some of the salvageable parts and having Marco from Magnus build me a 2.5L with cast iron sleeves. I LOVE the 2.5L. It just needed cams. I also think I might have him weld me up a header and intake manifold while he is at it.

Once that’s all done, I’ll throw the big turbo back on the car. For some drag passes and then I’ll slap the GT30 back on for street use. I may get the larger A/R exhaust housing from Ben though as the torque curve started getting too peaky for my taste at higher boost levels on the GT30.

-Nathan
www.turboxs.com

Originally posted by AZScoobie



I got the AVO450 sitting here. Taking it over to Ben tomorrow. I will let you know what we find. This guy is trashed. The housings look good but thats about it. I am praying I can fit the -12 or larger in it.

Cya

CT

What do you mean by trashed.

My AVO 450 was rebuilt after only 400 miles because of no oil I was told. I bought it after the rebuild BTW.

Deadbolt had a rebuilt one for sale cheap

I know of one other that went

Portland boys haven't had any problems that I know of with these turbos.

Are they fragile or what gives

Originally posted by Wombat North


What do you mean by trashed.

My AVO 450 was rebuilt after only 400 miles because of no oil I was told. I bought it after the rebuild BTW.

Deadbolt had a rebuilt one for sale cheap

I know of one other that went

Portland boys haven't had any problems that I know of with these turbos.

Are they fragile or what gives

GT cartridges are fragile yes... You need a filter and an oil restrictor or you will wear the bearings. Garrett provides this info. WRX runs 80+ PSI worth of oil pressure and its to much. Over time it will kill the center.

This one is trashed... The oil input line unhooked from the fitting so the turbo got NO oil for 10 miles or so. The bearings are shot and its hard to turn. Since Garrett Centers are not rebuildable I am just going to buy a -12 cartridge which will come with the new wheels and center..

CT

Originally posted by AZScoobie


GT cartridges are fragile yes... You need a filter and an oil restrictor or you will wear the bearings. Garrett provides this info. WRX runs 80+ PSI worth of oil pressure and its to much. Over time it will kill the center.


Clark,

So then what do you recommend for a restrictor and oil filter? Or should I just call garrett and ask?

Thanks,

Kevin

I know of one vendor who has tried a few Garrett setups with a separate wastegate and so far has blown the turbos on all of them. Oil problem. BTW the vendor is in California, not Shiv either.

Seems we have a little problem here. Thanks Clark for the info

As Red said where do we get the fix.

I'm assuming FP would have a handle on this with their turbos?.

Originally posted by AZScoobie


GT cartridges are fragile yes... You need a filter and an oil restrictor or you will wear the bearings. Garrett provides this info. WRX runs 80+ PSI worth of oil pressure and its to much. Over time it will kill the center.

CT

Phil and I have a combined 5k miles or so on a GT center section without an inline oil filter, but I’d highly recommend one like this kit from www.agpturbo.com

http://www.agpturbo.com/oil2_large.jpg

Also typically the high oil pressure doesn't actually "kill" the center section, it just blows oil past the seals out into the exhaust housing where it becomes a stinky smoky mess.

On a Subaru, with its high oil pressure, it’s a required item.

Thanks Nathan!

I wonder if the braided line AVO supplies with their turbo's has some sort of restrictor in it. Or maybe the banjo bolt has a very small hole in it (I recall mine having a small hole). That filter sounds like a good idea, too.

Kevin

Nathan
Thankyou kind sir.

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Or maybe the banjo bolt has a very small hole in it (I recall mine having a small hole).

Kevin

Typically the oil restriction is much smaller then you would expect. Did the turbo come with a new banjo bolt? If it did, and you are not experiencing smoke out your tailpipe I bet you are fine.

Keep in mind though that because of the nature of a GT center cartridge you may want to enforce a strict cool down on your car before you actually shut the car down. A real GT center section will spin for a minute or so at high speed even after you shut the engine down. Even with the water cooling, I’d highly recommend a letting the car idle for a few seconds before turning off the key.


-Nathan

emmmm, emmmm... turbo timer....:huh:

Originally posted by nmyeti


Typically the oil restriction is much smaller then you would expect. Did the turbo come with a new banjo bolt? If it did, and you are not experiencing smoke out your tailpipe I bet you are fine.

Keep in mind though that because of the nature of a GT center cartridge you may want to enforce a strict cool down on your car before you actually shut the car down. A real GT center section will spin for a minute or so at high speed even after you shut the engine down. Even with the water cooling, I’d highly recommend a letting the car idle for a few seconds before turning off the key.


-Nathan

Nathan,

Yep, using the supplied bolt, and not seeing any smoke....good stuff. I usually drive the car easy for a few minutes before shutdown, and then sit for a bit at idle.

Thanks,

Kevin

FYI on the oil pressure with the AVO Bolt on Garrett turbos...

Our supplied oil line comes down to 2mm at the turbo end.
The banjo bolt has only one hole and it is 1.5mm..

And all Garrett GT cores have a 0.5mm oil feed.

It is as much about slowing down the flow as it is about pressure and we have NEVER had a turbo fail due to excessive oil pressure.

Steve.
http://www.avoturbo.com

Steve,

I'm using a drilled out stock oil line (banjo fitting), do you think I will be alright with that? Great turbo, BTW.

Thanks,

Kevin

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Steve,

I'm using a drilled out stock oil line (banjo fitting), do you think I will be alright with that? Great turbo, BTW.

Thanks,

Kevin


Hi Kevin,

If your oil line is not 2mm at the turbo end and the banjo bolt one hole at 1.5mm, then it may be worthwhile fitting an alternate restrictor into the system.

What size is your outlet from the oil line to the turbo?

Steve
http://www.avoturbo.com

How does an avo450-500 compare to the APS sr-50, 17.5 housing? Can you change the housings and wheels on the sr-50 as well. Im looking for about 400hp on a built 2.4-2.5L to be a street car.
thanks
-nick

bump for more info.
-nick

Anyone, what happened to this thread, tons of interest then nothing... just looking for more info.
thanks
-nick

Originally posted by Redline8k
How does an avo450-500 compare to the APS sr-50, 17.5 housing? Can you change the housings and wheels on the sr-50 as well. Im looking for about 400hp on a built 2.4-2.5L to be a street car.
thanks
-nick

a well tuned APS SR-40 will definitely reach 400bhp reaching capacity on that 2.4-2.5L, however your low end should be optimal.

however if you want room for more power u probably want the AVO 450 turbo. The next bigger AVO turbo (500-550 i think) and APS SR50 might create un-necessary lag on ur motor.

APS is currently working on a SR40/50 hybrid made specifically for the 2.5L turbo (U.S. STi) that spools up as fast as the SR40 with close capabilities to the std. SR50.

so maybe I should sell the 50 for the 40? I really want the car to be "fun" on the street. I think the 50 might be ok because of the increased air flow from the better heads and cams, not sure though.
thanks
-nick

Originally posted by avoturbo



Hi Kevin,

If your oil line is not 2mm at the turbo end and the banjo bolt one hole at 1.5mm, then it may be worthwhile fitting an alternate restrictor into the system.

What size is your outlet from the oil line to the turbo?

Steve
http://www.avoturbo.com

Steve,

I had the turbo out this weekend, the diameter in question seems to be about 1 mm, smaller than the diameter of the banjo bolt hole.

Thanks,

Kevin

Originally posted by Redline8k
How does an avo450-500 compare to the APS sr-50, 17.5 housing? Can you change the housings and wheels on the sr-50 as well. Im looking for about 400hp on a built 2.4-2.5L to be a street car.
thanks
-nick

Well Nick, the APS turbo's are definitely Garrett GT turbos, or at least use the center sections. Check out this page:

http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/wrx/aps_turbo_details.htm

It's too bad they don't advertise them as such, they would probably sell more of them. I the SR50 should be some sort of GT3037 variant based on the power they claim, but who the hell knows. I wouldn't bet on it based on some of the reports about it from independant tests. Could be a big GT2835, or even a GT25? Here's a thread from the MRT forums where they are slamming the SR50 pretty hard:

http://www.mrtrally.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7300&SearchTerms=sr50,garrett

If you search there, you'll find more where that came from.

Perhaps they are all (sr30-sr50) GT25 hybirds?

Kevin

Oh, and you wouldn't believe exactly how big the turbine nozzle area is on my XS500.........so I took pictures........:devil:

Maybe I'll put them up tonight....

8 cm^2? Nah, that's too small.

Kevin

Originally posted by AZScoobie


GT cartridges are fragile yes... You need a filter and an oil restrictor or you will wear the bearings.

It has amazed me that the new, latest high tech turbos are such a step back in this regard from the old "tractor" turbos that weve been using for years.

Originally posted by Red Rocket


Well Nick, the APS turbo's are definitely Garrett GT turbos, or at least use the center sections. Check out this page:

http://www.airpowersystems.com.au/wrx/aps_turbo_details.htm

It's too bad they don't advertise them as such, they would probably sell more of them. I the SR50 should be some sort of GT3037 variant based on the power they claim, but who the hell knows. I wouldn't bet on it based on some of the reports about it from independant tests. Could be a big GT2835, or even a GT25? Here's a thread from the MRT forums where they are slamming the SR50 pretty hard:

http://www.mrtrally.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7300&SearchTerms=sr50,garrett

If you search there, you'll find more where that came from.

Perhaps they are all (sr30-sr50) GT25 hybirds?

Kevin


For some reason the SR turbos never really make big power. Every one of them that I have come in contact with has been a disapointment. I think there is an issue with the exhaust turbine housing. Its too bad. They look like nice turbos and its another alternative to the expensive AVO's but.. at this point the AVO's are the turbo to get..

Please post pics of the XS500 Kevin. I have been told over and over these are resold AVO turbos. Then I was told that they where custom. On the AVO's the housing is cast with the AVO logo... You could clear this up with some good pics.

Clark

Clark

Here's a bunch of pics.

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375533

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375540

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375544

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375547

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375553

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375561

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375568

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375571

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375575

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375582

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375584

Originally posted by AZScoobie

Please post pics of the XS500 Kevin. I have been told over and over these are resold AVO turbos. Then I was told that they where custom. On the AVO's the housing is cast with the AVO logo... You could clear this up with some good pics.

Clark

You can see part of where "AVO 4/5" is cast into the exhaust housing, on one of the pics above.

Kevin

Looks like an AVO with a polished t04 cover. Have any pics of the turbine housing exit? Its hard to see the scale on the measurements on this screen. Standard inlet hose is 2.25 inch. Does it work with the standard hose?

You you have some measurements of the leading edge of the turbine wheel or the compressor wheel you can determine what cartridge it is by finding your size here:



ClarkTurbfast (http://www.turbofast.com.au)

Originally posted by Red Rocket


You can see part of where "AVO 4/5" is cast into the exhaust housing, on one of the pics above.

Kevin


Ah.. So they take an AVO, Polish the cover and sell it as an XS turbo.. Nice. Do they cost more? Anything else changed? Are those plots of stock turbo versus Garrett?

Clark

Note where I attempt to measure the size of the turbine nozzle with that peice of paper cut to fit. While it may extend into the wastegate hole a tiny bit, the peice of paper is still signifgantly bigger than the 3.2 cm diameter circle I cut out. A 3.2 cm circle has an area of about 8 cm^2. So these turbos seem to have a nozzle area of about 9-10 cm^2. That is BIG.

Also note the compressor inlet OD and ID. The 60mm OD inlet is definitely a 2.75" inlet cut down. The ID is actually around 53mm, my caliper just couldn't fit in all the way.

Also, there's my dyno plots form a couple weeks ago.

Kevin

Originally posted by AZScoobie
Looks like an AVO with a polished t04 cover. Have any pics of the turbine housing exit? Its hard to see the scale on the measurements on this screen. Standard inlet hose is 2.25 inch. Does it work with the standard hose?

You you have some measurements of the leading edge of the turbine wheel or the compressor wheel you can determine what cartridge it is by finding your size here:



ClarkTurbfast (http://www.turbofast.com.au)

Here's the turbine side:

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=375601

When I first got the turbo, I took off the compressor cover and measured the wheel, it seemed to be a 48 tirm as expected. Also, I called XS about it, and they gave me the same turbine wheel diameters as the AVO500, but I didn't measure it.

Dyno is stock vs. XS500, catless exhaust, AVO intake pipe, MBC, and fairly recently after a ECU reset.

Kevin

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Ah.. So they take an AVO, Polish the cover and sell it as an XS turbo.. Nice. Do they cost more? Anything else changed? Are those plots of stock turbo versus Garrett?

Clark

Yeah, they cost maybe a $100 more, and are normally in stock at XS in CA. They are supplied to XS by AVO, to xs's spec. As far as I know, the 500's are the same. The XS450 has a .63 A/R exhaust housing though. I paid $1250 for mine used.

Kevin

I wonder how in the hell they got a .63 housing? AVO does not make one. I requested one. They only have the .82's Which is great for max top end but we can put a free flowing wheel in if we need it. I am suprised at the spool up of your turbo. I notice the gear ratio is off on your dyno plots. I think if you corrected that you would see two things... It spools up a bit slower and you are making even more power at redline over the stock turbo. I am suprised your car is not making more power but I have a feeling its because you have run low boost... This setup has made 295 at 17 psi untuned on the same dyno.

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie
I wonder how in the hell they got a .63 housing? AVO does not make one. I requested one. They only have the .82's Which is great for max top end but we can put a free flowing wheel in if we need it. I am suprised at the spool up of your turbo. I notice the gear ratio is off on your dyno plots. I think if you corrected that you would see two things... It spools up a bit slower and you are making even more power at redline over the stock turbo. I am suprised your car is not making more power but I have a feeling its because you have run low boost... This setup has made 295 at 17 psi untuned on the same dyno.

Clark

We didn't push the boost because it was on 93 octane and we didn't have the datalogging laptop available that day.

The scaling is off on those plots, I know. Still, I got this turbo to spool to 16 psi by 3800 rpm in 4th on the street, even with a reduced weight and slight downhill - see the datalogs I posted earlier in this thread.

I'll be taking it to the track a week from today, I'll run it on higher boost with 100 octane gas.

I'd call XS and ask them about the .63 housing.

Kevin

Red Rocket

As I've posted before I have the AVO 450HP turbo.

I see you are using the stock oil supply line. Clark says that a fitting on the oil line has to be welded on somewhere. Seems that all you have to do is use the stock line with a different bango bolt thru to the Garrett centre which is an inverted flare 7/16" 24 tpi fitting. Silver solder it up and drill a 1.5mm hole thru it. Please confirm. My turbo didn't come with the oil line as it was second hand rebuilt.

I checked with FP about the restrictor and oil filter requirements on the feed line and they say Garretts have a restrictor built into the centre cartridge and they have not had a problem on the DSM's who also have high oil pressure. They also don't sell filters or use them. I checked with ADP turbochargers in Vancouver and they are of the same opinion.

IMHO
Turbo cars should use a very good oil filter and change oil twice as often.

Did you guys happen to see this post on the AVO etc on the STI. This page and the bottom of the one before is very interesting and nice.;)
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422773&perpage=25&pagenumber=9

http://www.wrxworld.com/iclub/STIMAFCYL.gif [/B][/QUOTE]

Anyways, here are two comparos.
http://www.wrxworld.com/iclub/SPOOLSTI25.gif

The AVO450 on the STI spools up more then 1000 rpm faster then on a regular 2.0, and it isn't that far behind the stock STI. The VF22 is still ahead of that, but the AVO flows a lot more.

http://www.wrxworld.com/iclub/TCMAFSTI25.gif
Looking at MAF, you can see how the stock STI turbo falls flat at high RPM. Given a constant AFR and BSCF, engine hp follows MAF pretty close.

The AVO450 on the STI at 16psi flows almost as much as it does on Johns car (2.0) at 20psi. Very nice. [/B][/QUOTE]

Wombat,

To respond to your points:

My compressor defintely has a 60mm inlet, see the picture. It fits fine with the AVO pipe. Didn't try it with the stock one though. Both the stock wrx turbo and vf39 had a 56 mm inlet. You've actually measured yours?

On the oil inlet, all we did was drill out the stock banjo fitting to work with the supplied banjo bolt, and then bent the line to fit - that's it. The fitting has a fairly small hole from the line as mentioned on the last page, so I think it has enough restriction, that's good news about the filters too.

On the spool comparisons - the data there listed for the avo450 on a 2.5 STi is my data, with my XS500 turbo, NOT an avo450. Also the stock 2.5 data. All done in 4th with a 6-speed. While it is great that Jeff took the time to plot all theat data, I don't consider it a valid comparison. The turbos were tested on wildly varing setups. Jeff was runing his AVO500 on an RA motor with the link ECU, and NO AVCS. The 20g was tested on a hybird of small port UK sti heads, a EJ205 shortblock, STI ecu w/avcs, and a UTEC - and it spools MUCH better than it did on Imprezed's car, I think due to the AVCS. If jeff's test of the 20g was in 4th gear on a 6-speed, that's an even bigger difference. The AVO450 was tested on a RA motor with a stock ecu, untuned, I don't know if they had AVCS running. And that's not even counting all the supporting mods like FMIC's, headers, or not.

So basicly, it's super hard to compare. I only have mods right now that help spoolup - the intake pipe, catless exhaust, and ball+spring MBC. If I got headers or a FMIC, that would hurt things. All in all though, I am super happy with the turbo.

Kevin

Red Rocket

Thanks for the info about the banjo. I've tried to get a banjo bolt up here in Canada no luck. I will just machine one up instead.

On the inlet OD. I must stop sniffing glue when I post:huh:. You are correct 60mm is the size, to be exact on mine 59.56mm. I've edited post above.

FWIW
My friends in Australia say the APS SR turbos work well upto 20psi and then blow hot after that resulting in only a few more HP to be had between 20psi and 28psi. With the AVO's you get what they claim and that is proving to be correct by the looks of it.

Again thanks for the info

Originally posted by Wombat North
Red Rocket

Thanks for the info about the banjo. I've tried to get a banjo bolt up here in Canada no luck. I will just machine one up instead.

FWIW
My friends in Australia say the APS SR turbos work well upto 20psi and then blow hot after that resulting in only a few more HP to be had between 20psi and 28psi. With the AVO's you get what they claim and that is proving to be correct by the looks of it.

Again thanks for the info

It should be no problem getting a proper banjo bolt, it should be the same as for any other GT30 cartrage.

On the APS turbos, I would really like to know which GT they are - they have to be a GT25 or GT28. One of the local guys has a SR40, I'll have to inspect his.

Kevin

I have been following this for a little while.

I know the love is for the AVO 450 and 500 right now.

I have a ? for you all, has anyone looked at, seen or tried the APS D/R 55 and D/R 65?

Looks like a straight GT, comes with custom pipes ect.

Originally posted by horshack
I have been following this for a little while.

I know the love is for the AVO 450 and 500 right now.

I have a ? for you all, has anyone looked at, seen or tried the APS D/R 55 and D/R 65?

Looks like a straight GT, comes with custom pipes ect.


Just came out, Have not seen a single kit in use yet and its very expensive.. Looks nice though! I was told they keep the Subaru bolt pattern which will force you to by an SR series turbo. I sent email asking of it was the standard 4 bolt flange and got no response.

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



Just came out, Have not seen a single kit in use yet and its very expensive.. Looks nice though! I was told they keep the Subaru bolt pattern which will force you to by an SR series turbo. I sent email asking of it was the standard 4 bolt flange and got no response.

Clark

Thanks Clark!

Hopefully soon all our GT dreams will come true!

can we get some pics of this bongi bolt/oil split line issue.

I look into my turbo when I had my turbo-back out but I was not able to find this line split. It must be hidden somewhere near the underside of the turbo or something...

Originally posted by zacek
can we get some pics of this bongi bolt/oil split line issue.

I look into my turbo when I had my turbo-back out but I was not able to find this line split. It must be hidden somewhere near the underside of the turbo or something...
There are 4 lines to the turbo.

The oil in line (Banjo bolt) is on the top of the turbo center section, oil out is on the bottom of the turbo (nipple with a hose clamp), and coolant in/out lines on the side of the turbo (IC side).

correct 2 for oil and 2 for coolant i see that. Where is this oil split line everbody is talking about?

Originally posted by zacek
correct 2 for oil and 2 for coolant i see that. Where is this oil split line everbody is talking about?


The split is on the top oil feed line. From the turbo it runs to a split. One side feeds the AVCS solenoids on STI cars and the other goes to the block for oil supply. Non AVCS cars have a single feed oil line and no split.

Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie



The split is on the top oil feed line. From the turbo it runs to a split. One side feeds the AVCS solenoids on STI cars and the other goes to the block for oil supply. Non AVCS cars have a single feed oil line and no split.

Clark

dammit I did look into the top oil line but it just seemed to go into the bottom of the engine. I will follow the line by touch becasue I swear I did not see any split.

Originally posted by zacek


dammit I did look into the top oil line but it just seemed to go into the bottom of the engine. I will follow the line by touch becasue I swear I did not see any split.

Neither did I. Maybe Clark is talking about his 2.0 STI engine transplant.

I just bought a 7/16" x 24 TPI brake caliper bango bolt. I machined about 3/16" off the length(too long), drilled and tapped for a 1/4" grub screw in the bottom of the bolt(end of the threads) and drilled a 1.3mm hole thru the grub screw for oil restriction. You then just have to drill out the stock bango eye fitting that connects to the turbo with a 7/16" or 11mm drill as its only 10mm. This allows you to use the stock tubing as was posted above by Red Rocket.

I'm happy

Hey Clark,

Have you gotten any more information regarding getting some garret up and down pipes made up?

I have been poking around found someone that might do it, but would have to wait a few months to start.

Plus I have been looking at a GT30 56 trim with 82AR back end. I was told should make 550hp or better with our motors.

Any thoughts?

Originally posted by horshack
Hey Clark,

Have you gotten any more information regarding getting some garret up and down pipes made up?

I have been poking around found someone that might do it, but would have to wait a few months to start.

Plus I have been looking at a GT30 56 trim with 82AR back end. I was told should make 550hp or better with our motors.

Any thoughts?


Not a bad choice but I would go to the -14 cartridge if it was up to me... The .82 is large.. If you would use the .63 you would probably gain 500-700 rpm worth of spool up..

What I would want to do is to make a kit with the standard T3/T4 combo.. A T3/T4 with 57 or 60 trim compressor To4E housing and .6 or .8 rear side with Stg3 turbine wheel would make TONS of power and its an $800 turbo.... Then, If I wanted a GT turbo I would just have one made up... It would fit the same location...



Clark

Originally posted by AZScoobie
Not a bad choice but I would go to the -14 cartridge if it was up to me... The .82 is large.. If you would use the .63 you would probably gain 500-700 rpm worth of spool up..

What I would want to do is to make a kit with the standard T3/T4 combo.. A T3/T4 with 57 or 60 trim compressor To4E housing and .6 or .8 rear side with Stg3 turbine wheel would make TONS of power and its an $800 turbo.... Then, If I wanted a GT turbo I would just have one made up... It would fit the same location...



Clark

Yes a T3/T4 set up would be about half the cost of the GT30.

Would the 63 be able to flow enough at the top end?

This was what the 'turbo guy' suggested.

I know we all wish there were at least a up/down pipe kit out there for Garret that we could get a hold of.

Originally posted by horshack
Yes a T3/T4 set up would be about half the cost of the GT30.

Would the 63 be able to flow enough at the top end?

This was what the 'turbo guy' suggested.

I know we all wish there were at least a up/down pipe kit out there for Garret that we could get a hold of.


I watched a 50 trim with .48 put down 360whp on this dyno at 26 psi on a 2.0.... I think the .6 would be a good choice.. The thing is its cheap to change it!!!

Clark

Got my AVO 500 in finaly.

Now to get the sucker put in.

Originally posted by XT6Wagon
Got my AVO 500 in finaly.

Now to get the sucker put in.

Good luck with the install!

Kevin

Here's an update:

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=385623

Power mods are:

xs500 turbo
AVO intake pipe
Catless 3" turboback
Joe P MBC

We were running a mix of about 3 gallons 93 to 1 gallon of 114 leaded race gas. You will see that it's running uber rich, even richer than in the plot before of 247 whp. I little of that is due to the race gas, but most of it is due to the very high airflows making the ecu dump even more fuel than normal.

The major reason the car didn't make more power is that I am not tricking any sensors. The stock airbox is still in place, so it reads MAF correctly and fuels very rich. If I shimmed the MAF, or went to a larger diameter aftermarket intake, it would read lower and not dump as much fuel, leaning out the car. And make more power. By only shimming the maf, installing a basic DIY FCD, and running straight c16, I'm sure we could get the car up to at least 300 whp - yes, that's like $20 in mods.....!

The intake has to be the reason Clark is making so much more power on dynocomp's STi, for the reasons discussed above.

A larger diameter aftermarket intake is pretty high on my shopping list now, primarily because I will need it to keep the maf from maxing out when I get proper engine management on the car. I have a Unichip sitting here that I might wire in next week, but I haven't decided if I want to take the time fool with it, when ECUTEK is coming out soon (hopefully).

On the time slips - I had turned down the boost a bit for those runs because I was I was hitting boost cut in 5th. So figure I was making about 250 whp. 12.878@106.63 is decent for that power figure in the sti.

Kevin

Rich had the stock airbox... Nothing changed but a BPM turboback, Blow off valve and AVO450 turbo. He runs 91 octane with some unleaded 100 mixed in. The key is to get the boost set at the right level so the car does not over fuel.

Clark

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Here's an update:

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=385623

Power mods are:

xs500 turbo
AVO intake pipe
Catless 3" turboback
Joe P MBC

We were running a mix of about 3 gallons 93 to 1 gallon of 114 leaded race gas. You will see that it's running uber rich, even richer than in the plot before of 247 whp. I little of that is due to the race gas, but most of it is due to the very high airflows making the ecu dump even more fuel than normal.

The major reason the car didn't make more power is that I am not tricking any sensors. The stock airbox is still in place, so it reads MAF correctly and fuels very rich. If I shimmed the MAF, or went to a larger diameter aftermarket intake, it would read lower and not dump as much fuel, leaning out the car. And make more power. By only shimming the maf, installing a basic DIY FCD, and running straight c16, I'm sure we could get the car up to at least 300 whp - yes, that's like $20 in mods.....!

The intake has to be the reason Clark is making so much more power on dynocomp's STi, for the reasons discussed above.

A larger diameter aftermarket intake is pretty high on my shopping list now, primarily because I will need it to keep the maf from maxing out when I get proper engine management on the car. I have a Unichip sitting here that I might wire in next week, but I haven't decided if I want to take the time fool with it, when ECUTEK is coming out soon (hopefully).

On the time slips - I had turned down the boost a bit for those runs because I was I was hitting boost cut in 5th. So figure I was making about 250 whp. 12.878@106.63 is decent for that power figure in the sti.

Kevin

Someone should make a turbo kit utilizing the Precision Turbo SC61 which uses a gt40 compressor wheel in it (same as a gt35) but a smaller exhaust side and better designed housings so spoolup is substantially better and still capable of 500+hp. I have seen honda's dyno over 450whp at 20psi with this thing with ease and best of all, its under $800. Would probably need custom up-pipe and all that junk. Would make a killer turbo on a STi, thats for sure.

ttt

ttt any updates on this turbo setup?

Originally posted by ryu12341
ttt any updates on this turbo setup?

We figured out in another thread that my XS500 turbo is the same thing as an AVO450, the AVO500 is signifigantly bigger.

I have all the parts in hand to go "stage 4" - injectors/rails (pump is already installed), unichip (also have a FCD already installed). I also have an old style APS CAI to put on. It's going to be a bit of a project to get it all installed. I may start on it tomorrow.

Kevin

Sorry for the rookie question, but which of these turbos would be most like an SR50? How would one compare?

Thanks!

Originally posted by Red Rocket
I have all the parts in hand to go "stage 4" - injectors/rails (pump is already installed), unichip (also have a FCD already installed).
Unichip for STi?
Did I miss something?

Nope, you didnt' miss anything. The Unichip will pretty much work on any FI car. There's just no plug-in solution for the STi available yet.

I am currently running a unichip in mine and it works great.

The PnP should be out soon, but for now you will have to wait or wire in.

just ordered the vf22

RR, BTW Never made 11's
:lol:

RR, BTW Never made 11's
:lol:
:lol:

~v6

lol nice bump

you old timers....