Hi guys,

Well, we got our STI turbo-back fitted to the test car. In case you forgot we dyno'd this stock STI at 210-215 wheel hp and 220ft-lbs of torque with audible detonation between 3500 and 4500RPM. Peak boost was 14psi, falling off to 13psi by redline.

Next, we added [and tuned, of course] an XEDE. This brought power and torque up to 235 wheel hp and 240ft-lbs of torque with zero detonation and perfect consistency. Peak boost was 15psi, falling off to 13psi by redline.

Next, we installed our 3" STI turbo-back and retuned the XEDE. After a bunch of tuning runs, output steadily climbed to a ridiculous 260 wheel hp and 272ft-lbs of torque. Yes, 272ft-lbs of torque. This is more torque than ANY WRX we have ever tested short of our two Stage 3 test cars running race gas. Our 12 second Stage 2 WRX, at best, make 220-230ft-lbs of torque. Even those that run 110+mph trap speeds. For another comparison's sake, a stock WRX makes a peak of just 165ft-lbs of torque. Peak boost of the Stage 1 STI was 16psi, falling off to 13psi by redline.

The Neat Part:
In fact, comparing the Torque and HP curves of a Stock WRX to a Stock STI to the Stage 1 STI, it becomes clear that the difference between the stock STI to the Stage 1 STI is virtually the same, across the board, as the difference between the Stock WRX and the Stock STI. Yep, it's that significant. And no knock either.

Once we get our scanner up and running, we'll post up charts. They speak louder than any words I can come up with. Geez...

Here's some rough numbers (from looking at the graphs) just in case anyone wants to plot them on an excel spreadsheet to see what I'm talking about. I hope it comes through okay.

Wheel Torque

RPM- Stock WRX - Stock STI - Stage 1 STI
3200- 135 - 165 - 250
4000- 165 - 215 - 270
4800- 160 - 205 - 260
5600- 155 - 200 - 245
6400- 120 - 165 - 200


Wheel HP

RPM- Stock WRX - Stock STI - Stage 1 STI
3200- 80 - 100 - 150
4000- 125 - 165 - 205
4800- 145 - 195 - 240
5600- 165 - 210 - 260
6400- 150 - 205 - 245

Cheers,
Shiv

PS. All testing done on 91 octane fuels. Can't wait to see what happens on 93/94 and then on 100+ race gas :)

exciting stuffis for you STi boys! looks like ~90% of torque by 3200RPM :eek:

Sounds awesome. Maybe the STi guys can shut up the EVO owners now. :lol:

Just curious as to what differences there are between your STi turboback and your WRX turbobacks (sig and non-sig).

Most impressive!

Anxiously awaiting any further developments or announcements as to what's in the works for the STi (and anything forthcoming for the WRX, Turbo Forester, and friends). :)

--jeff

Originally posted by silverscooby
Sounds awesome. Maybe the STi guys can shut up the EVO owners now. :lol:

Some of them Evo owners couldn't be shut up on these boards when they had a WRX doubt this will help. ;) Oh and if a certain someone thinks I mean them I don't... I mean another noreaster.

Originally posted by Avedis
Most impressive!

Anxiously awaiting any further developments or announcements as to what's in the works for the STi (and anything forthcoming for the WRX, Turbo Forester, and friends). :)

--jeff

WRX has a new stage in the works I thought - at least pre-orders are being accepted.

thats just SICK lol

:eek: :eek: Yes I'm a nerd...but I had to share...

http://photos.imageevent.com/olivares/iclubstuff/websize/graphs.jpg

http://photos.imageevent.com/olivares/iclubstuff//i%20love%20shiv.jpg

pizza - that's some nice excel work. :)

Extrapolate to Sunoco 94 Ultra tuning. :banana: ~5-10hp?

Originally posted by jehcpa


Some of them Evo owners couldn't be shut up on these boards when they had a WRX doubt this will help. ;) Oh and if a certain someone thinks I mean them I don't... I mean another noreaster.

*cough*al*cough*?

And this is only 'Stage I'...:banana:

- Janq

cooter-- We don't yet offer a signature dual dump exhaust for the STi. The width of the 6 speed transmission prohibits us from using the same wastegate bypass-around-the-cat design as we do with the WRX. Currently, we are using a custom version of the our non-sign. exhaust. It differs from the regular WRX non-sig. exhaust by o2 sensor bung location only. It's also single-tip, FWIW.

Avedis-- WRX Stage 3 development is essentially much done. Just working on the small details right now. For the most part, we're just waiting for an opening in our fabricator's schedule. Between all the STi parts, EVO parts, etc, we're keeping him awfully busy.

Janq-- Yes, this is only Stage One. And the first one at that. Give us a bit more time and I think we can do better. Planning on getting some more Bay Area beta testers running just to make sure we're not missing anything.

Frankly, I'm just thrilled that we found why the stock ECU mapping caused the car to detonate so badly. After we addressed it, we were able to take out fuel, raise the boost slightly and actually ADD IN timing with the XEDE. Goes to show that even the guys at FHI can make a simple mistake :) More on that later...

As for further developments, we are in the process of installing a special upgraded turbo that we've been holding back for some time. It proved to be a bit too laggy in the 2.0 WRX. We have high hopes for it in the 2.5 STi. With some big 750cc injectors (the stock injectors are already running at 92% duty cycle) and our top-mount IC (see, there's a reason why we sized it for a factory STi duct) it should be a wild ride. Lots more to come as the days roll by. Shooting for 911 Turbo output. Just 40 more wheel hp and 10 ft-lbs more torque to go :)

Cheers,
shiv

PS. mexicanpizza-- thanks for taking the time to make those graphs!

Originally posted by Javabean2


*cough*al*cough*?

:p

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
we were able to take out fuel, raise the boost slightly and actually ADD IN timing with the XEDE. Goes to show that even the guys at FHI can make a simple mistake :) More on that later...
More on that now! :disco:

Have you attempted to have this particular STi's ecu reflashed by Subaru?

Have you had any factory reflashed STi's on the dyno yet?

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
..... Peak boost of the Stage 1 STI was 16psi, falling off to 13psi by redline. .....


Very impressive results for such low boost, BTW what is the range that the turbo is able to hold 16psi ?

Any estimate on price yet?

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
Once we get our scanner up and running, we'll post up charts.

Am I the only one who's amazed that the dyno can't output graphical files in a postable format?

Originally posted by Concillian


Am I the only one who's amazed that the dyno can't output graphical files in a postable format?

I'm more amazed that updating the operating system on our office computers made our scanner inoperative.

shiv

Congrats on another job well done Shiv.

Can you post the stage 2 and 3 numbers for comparison too?

Makes me want one!!!

It's cool that you all got a piggyback ECU working with the STi so much quicker than others!

Any WAG on when you may have something to sell?

Thanks,
Russ

take a digital photo of them. my scanner packed it in years ago and so I have gotten used to that method of "scanning".

this exhaust still retains a cat correct?

Shiv, have you ever considered adding/designing an equal header for the wrx/sti application?

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
Frankly, I'm just thrilled that we found why the stock ECU mapping caused the car to detonate so badly. After we addressed it, we were able to take out fuel, raise the boost slightly and actually ADD IN timing with the XEDE. Goes to show that even the guys at FHI can make a simple mistake :) More on that later...

Cheers,
shiv


do tell

Argh! Maybe I should have bought the STi instead of the Evo.:mad:

Oh well, I'm extremely happy with what I bought. But I'm definitely not a hater...except maybe for SRT-4's. Those kind of annoy me.
Gregg

Originally posted by Czubaka
Argh! Maybe I should have bought the STi instead of the Evo.:mad:

Oh well, I'm extremely happy with what I bought. But I'm definitely not a hater...except maybe for SRT-4's. Those kind of annoy me.
Gregg

Dude get the NEW SCC Mag. They have a artical about the motor brake down and that motor is built nicely (SRT-4). I love all cars that get my boold boiling. Neon, EVO, STI, Turbo charged Ford Festa with 1.3L fury!!!!

I know the STI would make some good power with a few very well develped tested parts and carefully mapped EM. Good Job Shiv.

Hey when are you going to offer the Xede for the STI. Scott from my area would love to jump in on the tuning in Oct with his STI.

My Best
Eric

SHIV, very interesting stuff. Keep up the good work.

You are making boatloads of torque with the new STi, and that is tempting me;)

I need to drive down to your shop someday.

Keep up the good work Ron

Nice work Shiv. If you have a simple Digital Camera you can lay the graphs on the table and take some shots with no flash. They come out good enough to post. Cant wait to see em.

Clark

Shiv

The XEDE is the same that the one you use on the WRX same wiring. Is plug & play on the STI or need to cut and rewire some cables?
Is good to see that theres a progress with the STI.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
we were able to take out fuel, raise the boost slightly and actually ADD IN timing with the XEDE. Goes to show that even the guys at FHI can make a simple mistake More on that later...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Austin
More on that now! :disco:

Have you attempted to have this particular STi's ecu reflashed by Subaru?

Have you had any factory reflashed STi's on the dyno yet?

Big Bada-Bump!:banana:

It's got to have a different plug configuration than the WRX since the STi's ECU plugs are completely different.

I'm betting that it'll be plug-n-play, just with STi style connectors.

Russ

Originally posted by GGM
Shiv

The XEDE is the same that the one you use on the WRX same wiring. Is plug & play on the STI or need to cut and rewire some cables?
Is good to see that theres a progress with the STI.

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
Frankly, I'm just thrilled that we found why the stock ECU mapping caused the car to detonate so badly. After we addressed it, we were able to take out fuel, raise the boost slightly and actually ADD IN timing with the XEDE. Goes to show that even the guys at FHI can make a simple mistake :) More on that later...


I'm anxious to hear what you have to say on this matter.

-Jon

Shiv,

Great gains :) Question for you, is the XEDE ever going to support more than 2 maps? As an example I currently have 5 differently tuned maps in my UTEC, and I tend to use them all depending on conditions ;)

Cheers

Rich

Originally posted by WRBLUEWAGON


Dude get the NEW SCC Mag. They have a artical about the motor brake down and that motor is built nicely (SRT-4). I love all cars that get my boold boiling. Neon, EVO, STI, Turbo charged Ford Festa with 1.3L fury!!!!

My Best
Eric

I agree the SRT-4 has a well built motor and is very fast. That's not my problem. My problem is with the fact that if I'm not paying attention I may inadvertantly get schooled by a neon. That's what annoys me.:p

If it isn't busy doing a 1 wheel burnout :lol:

Originally posted by Czubaka


I agree the SRT-4 has a well built motor and is very fast. That's not my problem. My problem is with the fact that if I'm not paying attention I may inadvertantly get schooled by a neon. That's what annoys me.:p

Hey more cars on the market the more options we have. I don't care if a moped schooled me.

Austin-- We have a factory reflashed STi coming in next week so I'm going to hold back saying anything until we double check a few things.

WRX Harvey-- You can take a look at the dyno curves of a strong running Stage 2 on our website at http://www.vishnutuning.com/images/dyno/kwan_stg2_01.jpg

Typically, we seen Stage 2s (on 91 octane) making anywhere from 245 to 255 wheel hp. The car that put down that run was the same car we entered in the 'Spank the Sti' story where it ran 111mph trap speeds and dyno'd at 300whp on a dynojet. I have a dyno graph of a Stage 3 test car up on the wall in my shop. Not really fair to compare it to the STi since it was running 100 octane race gas. Needless to say, above 5000rpm, there is no comparison between the two (Stage 3 w/100 octane is far more powerful).

rlavalle-- The STi XEDE is the same exact XEDE we use for the 2.0 WRX. Fortunately, FHI changed next to nothing when it came to crank position sensors/crank teeth config, MAF type, sensor ranges, etc,. The only feature we don't use yet is the TPS adjustment table since the STi doesn't have the silly 60% closed/open loop switchover trait that the 2.0 WRX is plagued with. We do intend to use it eventually. But not for open/closed loop tweaking. Instead, we'll use it for remapping the throttle-by-wire system, changing the relationship between actual pedal position and throttle opening angle :) But since the XEDE is the same XEDE we've used in the WRX, they are available now in wire-in configuration. There is no plug-in harness available yet and there probably won't be for a few months. There is another option that we are looking into in the short term which will eliminate the need to cut wires. But we need a bit more time to test it out.

pio!pio!-- Yes, there is still a cat in our turbo-back. Just like what we've been offering for WRXs for a long time now. No plans to design a header yet but I'm certainly willing to test others. But historically, they have proven to be very useful in general. Some have improved torque here and there but we haven't tested any that had an across the board improvememt. Not to say that they aren't out there of course.

digitaltekniq-- It will support more than 2 maps very soon. All the hardware is, and has been, in place for a few months. Just need to write the firmware for it. XMAP v.2, which is cominig out next month, has been keeping the software developer really busy. BTW, XMAP v. 2 will be freeware so no need for any licensing. Like the current XMAP, it will be full featured and quite a powerful tuning tool.

Best Regards,
Shiv

digitaltekniq-- It will support more than 2 maps very soon. All the hardware is, and has been, in place for a few months. Just need to write the firmware for it. XMAP v.2, which is cominig out next month, has been keeping the software developer really busy. BTW, XMAP v. 2 will be freeware so no need for any licensing. Like the current XMAP, it will be full featured and quite a powerful tuning tool.

Sweet, I have a couple of quote requests out for my STI, so I may be getting back to you in the new year ;)

Cheers

Rich

Originally posted by digitaltekniq


Sweet, I have a couple of quote requests out for my STI, so I may be getting back to you in the new year ;)

Cheers

Rich

Thats too funny rich This whole week ive been negotiating on a EVO but put things to a screeching halt with this STi ecu curing and Huge power!!! I am impressed and with only a TB!!! I think just a 18 G and pump/ adj FPR could be hella fun till some side feeds are resonably priced. Needless to say I am ashamed I was so close to sitting my butt in an EVO and pray for Subie forgiveness for my almost sins!! I have cracked the whip for qoutes on STi goodness also. If the finaces work out Ill have lotsa transferable parts too! Im excited well cept for that increase in payment thing

ROFL! Dude, I just couldn't do it, as much as I admire the EVO, the STI just "fits" me better, not to mention all the knowledge I've built up around the Subaru platform.... :)

Lemme know how it works out, I'm going for White with gold - although the missus told me she wouldn't ride with me cos of the bling ;)

But you're right, these kind of results with just a TB and ECU tweak, I knew the STI had huge potential, it's nice to see it coming to fruition.

Originally posted by MP5


Thats too funny rich This whole week ive been negotiating on a EVO but put things to a screeching halt with this STi ecu curing and Huge power!!! I am impressed and with only a TB!!! I think just a 18 G and pump/ adj FPR could be hella fun till some side feeds are resonably priced. Needless to say I am ashamed I was so close to sitting my butt in an EVO and pray for Subie forgiveness for my almost sins!! I have cracked the whip for qoutes on STi goodness also. If the finaces work out Ill have lotsa transferable parts too! Im excited well cept for that increase in payment thing

While making your decision read the latest musings (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=413090&goto=newpost) regarding the STi and EVO then pick your side...

I sense 'The Force' is strong in you.

- Janq

"...Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - Yoda

Shiv,

Please put the plug-n-play harness on the fast track... you'll have a bunch of instant customers!

Russ

Originally posted by digitaltekniq
ROFL! Dude, I just couldn't do it, as much as I admire the EVO, the STI just "fits" me better, not to mention all the knowledge I've built up around the Subaru platform.... :)

Lemme know how it works out, I'm going for White with gold - although the missus told me she wouldn't ride with me cos of the bling ;)

But you're right, these kind of results with just a TB and ECU tweak, I knew the STI had huge potential, it's nice to see it coming to fruition.

Yea I just was constantly second guessing myself even though I love pretty much everything about the EVO subies just feel like a comforting friend. Shiv did it with this info and that tranny and torque steal the show! Of course I will be hunting for a Black/Gold STi but will be perfectly happy with my second choice White/ Gold (Why is it we always like the same damn things?:lol: )

YES!

Shiv-Please put the plug and play harness on the front burner. I am not going to buy anything that will not make it simple to restore back to stock.

Originally posted by blinguskahn
YES!

Shiv-Please put the plug and play harness on the front burner. I am not going to buy anything that will not make it simple to restore back to stock.


^^^^
Yea! what he said!

Why is it we always like the same damn things?

Scary innit?! ;) Not to mention, already got the turboback/suspension goodies ready to go - quickly modding it is another thing that just pushed me over the edge. This thread definitely took me the last 2 yards.

Shiv-Please put the plug and play harness on the front burner. I am not going to buy anything that will not make it simple to restore back to stock.

Werd.

Okay... here's the deal. We won't get delivery of the connectors for at least a few months. Then making the harness is another few weeks away after that.

Soo... here's another option that involves no wire cutting but a little more work than simply plugging in a plug-in harness. Witht the ECU already exposed, it would take maybe 10 minutes to install instead of 2 minutes:

We termininate the ends of the wire-in XEDE harness with OE male and female terminals. One extracts the necessary wires (MAF, MAP, TPS, CAS) from the stock ECU connectors. To do this, you use a paper-clip to pull back the little clip that holds each wire inside the connector. With these wires extracted, you push them (they are already male terminated) into female terminated wires from the XEDE harness. Then you push four male terminated XEDE wires into the factory ECU connectors, replacing the wires that you extracted in step one. And that's it. No wire cutting and no need to add a plug-in extension harness which adds a couple hundred solder joints and a couple hundred sections of wire to the system.

FWIW, we use this approach for our boost control wire when using our plug-in EVO harness. For better instructions (with pictures) look at steps 5-7 at:

http://www.vishnutuning.com/xede_evo_installation.htm

Real easy to do. Would this appeal to anyone?

Cheers,
shiv

Shiv,

In your personal opinion, do you feel you can get more out of the STI than the EVO? And what would you choose for a track/autox car?

I'm trying to decide which one to get =/

Originally posted by psalm
Shiv,

In your personal opinion, do you feel you can get more out of the STI than the EVO? And what would you choose for a track/autox car?

I'm trying to decide which one to get =/

Shiv prefers the EVO

Shiv,

No problem with pulling pins from the stock connectors as long as it can be done easily without damaging them.

If it's as easy as the EVO method you pointed out, then that's reasonable.

I need to go back & study the XEDE.

Can you give a short discussion (or point to one) of how it compares to the UTEC and ECUTEK Reflash mods?

Thanks,
Russ

I'm happy to wait for a plug in solution - I'm not in any monster hurry, I'd rather have a fully sorted product that is easy to install/de-install.

Just my 10c

How do all the maps and tuning work? I have a deadbolt port and polished turbo and a turboxs stealth back.

psalm-- Stock for stock, I prefer the EVO. The straight-line accel. difference between them isn't big and the EVO excels in the other areas I find important. However, the STI is responding better than we ever expected to engine management tuning. And I only think we scratched the surface so it's a bit too early to say when it comes to modifed versions of each car.

rlavalle-- Yes, it's quite easy to install using that method. And totally reversible as well so all bases are covered. It would also cost a bit less than it would with a plug-in harness.

As for the XEDE, it's a true interceptor-based computer. It does not offer stand alone control of timing like the UTEC. Different approaches to different products. It was designed to be completely transparent to the factory ECU while still offering huge adjustment range for fuel, timing, map, boost and TPS. The softare interface is also quite exceptional, IMHO. It's also flexible enough to use different load variables and different load/rpm breakpoints for each of its several map tables. It's pretty powerfull if one knows what he is doing.

dlowman-- As with the EVO and WRX, we'll offer baseline files for different levels of mods with the ability for the user to fine tune the files for their particular car.

Cheers,
shiv

Have you gotten around to fooling with the avcs yet, to see if there are any sig. gains there?

Also as for the harness I wouldnt mind connecting the xede that way if I just planned to run the car that way all the time. But in my case if I get this product I would be disconnecting it once a week to stay in stock class for autox and just be using the xede for daily driving. So the harness would be a must b4 I would purchase one.

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
psalm-- Stock for stock, I prefer the EVO. The straight-line accel. difference between them isn't big and the EVO excels in the other areas I find important. However, the STI is responding better than we ever expected to engine management tuning. And I only think we scratched the surface so it's a bit too early to say when it comes to modifed versions of each car.



Another aspect that is rarely brought up in the comparisons between these cars (especially auto magazines) is long term reliability (which for obvious reasons is hard to predict). RX-7 vs. Supra comes to mind. However, having spent much time discussing the manufacturing/part sourcing habits of these corporations with an experienced parts buyer for Toyota, my money will be on the Subaru.

Shiv, any personal opinions on this?

Agreed - Mitsubishi isn't very highly regarded in Japan, from a quality standpoint. Still, some cars are more than a sum of their parts....:)

The EVO isn't a normal Mitsubishi product. It's essentially built by Ralliart in its own production line. It's an incredibly robust car in every way.

Shiv

Originally posted by digitaltekniq
Agreed - Mitsubishi isn't very highly regarded in Japan, from a quality standpoint. Still, some cars are more than a sum of their parts....:)

well, I know the aussies and Kiwi's hold mitsubishi very high, they are known for their durability and reliability over there as well as subaru, but subaru also carries the weak gear box burden over there as well.

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
cooter-- We don't yet offer a signature dual dump exhaust for the STi. The width of the 6 speed transmission prohibits us from using the same wastegate bypass-around-the-cat design as we do with the WRX. Currently, we are using a custom version of the our non-sign. exhaust. It differs from the regular WRX non-sig. exhaust by o2 sensor bung location only. It's also single-tip, FWIW.


I guess what I'm really wanting to know is will the non-signature series Vishnu exhaust I have on my WRX fit on an STi....even with it's original O2 sensor bung location?

Originally posted by cooter



I guess what I'm really wanting to know is will the non-signature series Vishnu exhaust I have on my WRX fit on an STi....even with it's original O2 sensor bung location?

It will fit without a problem. However, the factory STI o2 sensor may not reach the bung. This is why we have to add another o2 sensor bung on the other side of the midpipe (closer to the o2 sensor). Any muffler shop can do this for $40 or so.

Cheers
shiv

What quater mile time should we get with this kit ? low 12 ?

Originally posted by Ziglabeu
What quater mile time should we get with this kit ? low 12 ?

More like mid 12s as you have to shift to fifth

Shiv send me the rest of the EVo Stage 1 kit STAT! these STi's are gonna kill me ;)

nice work.
tom@kartboy.com

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
Real easy to do. Would this appeal to anyone?


Yes. This might convince me to get an xede while I wait for the ecutek reflashes to become available.

Thanks,

Kevin

Shiv,

I would have no problem with this male/female system. I particularly like the ease of reversability. I have easy daily access to 94 octane. WHat do you feel is your timeframe for the system being available to purchase? Perhaps a purchaser willing to be a guinea pig? I would be more than pleased to pay and provide feedback.

Any idea on what the price on this sick setup is??

Originally posted by norexyet
Any idea on what the price on this sick setup is??

~ 2k

The xede is only $800 though.

Kevin

The xede is only $800 though.

Kevin

Add to it the charge for the turbo-back and shipping.

tom@kartboy-- Hi Tom, we just got our latest shipment of EVO XEDEs and I think one has your name on it :)

Red Rocket-- Not to sell the future STi reflash short, but I don't think the STi XEDE is what I would consider a compromise.

bingo-- I think everything is a go. However, we'd like to start slow and just sell 3 kits to 3 people. Perhaps one more local and 2 out-of-state. If you, or anyone else, is interested, give us a call. We should be able to ship the whole kit within the next 2 weeks.

norexyet-- Price will be $2000-2100. Maybe a tad less for the first few testers. We'll have updates on the website within a week, hopefully.

Cheers,
shiv

Looks like my patience has paid off. Leaving my WRX stock...I'm still in the hunt for an MSRP white/gold STi.

Once I find one, I'm just following Shiv to 911 Turbo land.

:)

Hi Shiv,

Speaking of differences between the various ECU upgrades, how does the knock detection system work on the XEDE?

The UTEC has a pretty sensitive system that flashes the CEL and cuts timing for a bit at the first hint of knock.

Thanks,
Russ

Originally posted by rlavalle
Hi Shiv,

Speaking of differences between the various ECU upgrades, how does the knock detection system work on the XEDE?

The UTEC has a pretty sensitive system that flashes the CEL and cuts timing for a bit at the first hint of knock.

Thanks,
Russ

I too would like to know this.

Originally posted by rlavalle
Hi Shiv,

Speaking of differences between the various ECU upgrades, how does the knock detection system work on the XEDE?

The UTEC has a pretty sensitive system that flashes the CEL and cuts timing for a bit at the first hint of knock.

Thanks,
Russ

Since the XEDE piggybacks off of both the fuel and ignition curves, the stock knock control system is still in effect. For 99% of the applications, we suggest leaving it alone and letting it do its things. This applies to the STi with the new ecu factory reflash. For other applications, the XEDE is equipped with a knock adjust feature which can desensitive the knock sensor by attenuating the knock signal at various rpm/load points.

Cheers,
Shiv

How close would you expect the generic maps to be to your tuned map?

Hey Shiv,

I remember you quoting about the STi that "nothing short of a 911 Turbo will out-accelerate it coming out of a corner".

That being said, realistically...what would it take to make the STi a car capable of running with and surpassing a 911 Turbo?

And how much would that cost?

Would it certainly entail a FMIC and a larger turbo?

Originally posted by xfactor834
Hey Shiv,

I remember you quoting about the STi that "nothing short of a 911 Turbo will out-accelerate it coming out of a corner".

That being said, realistically...what would it take to make the STi a car capable of running with and surpassing a 911 Turbo?

And how much would that cost?

Would it certainly entail a FMIC and a larger turbo?

An STi would need about 30% more power (100HP & Tq) to run with the TT. The TT (192mph!) would out do the STi in a top speed run no matter what though due to superior aerodynamics.

On the streets a stock STi would be hurt by a TT. Don't try this at home kids.
With Shiv's current 'mods' and a good start with a quick rowing driver the STi might have the TT driver sweating, but still he'd get walked on in the top end.
Give the STi an extra 25-30% though (from what ever mods) and the TT driver would be pinching off loafs, and it wouldn't be whole wheat. :)

Its much easier/cheaper to pick-up TT power from the STi than it would be for a TT owner to gain an equal amount/percentage of power.

Advantage: Subaru

- Janq

Originally posted by Janq


An STi would need about 30% more power (100HP & Tq) to run with the TT. The TT (192mph!) would out do the STi in a top speed run no matter what though due to superior aerodynamics.

On the streets a stock STi would be hurt by a TT. Don't try this at home kids.
With Shiv's current 'mods' and a good start with a quick rowing driver the STi might have the TT driver sweating, but still he'd get walked on in the top end.
Give the STi an extra 25-30% though (from what ever mods) and the TT driver would be pinching off loafs, and it wouldn't be whole wheat. :)

Its much easier/cheaper to pick-up TT power from the STi than it would be for a TT owner to gain an equal amount/percentage of power.

Advantage: Subaru

- Janq

Exactly perfect post Its gunna take a turbo though

Originally posted by MP5


Exactly perfect post Its gunna take a turbo though

So? The STi has almost nonexistent turbo lag, what's this gonna push boost threshold up to, 3200rpm with a good exhaust system?

Bring it on, folks.

On another note, I was briefly considering dropping my STi deposit and getting the Evolution, but the turbo lag can only get worse in an Evo, whereas in the STi, you have more torque to play with down low. And to a weekend track guy like myself, I value corner exit speed more than how much HP I make at 9000rpm

Originally posted by urs4


So? The STi has almost nonexistent turbo lag, what's this gonna push boost threshold up to, 3200rpm with a good exhaust system?

Bring it on, folks.

On another note, I was briefly considering dropping my STi deposit and getting the Evolution, but the turbo lag can only get worse in an Evo, whereas in the STi, you have more torque to play with down low. And to a weekend track guy like myself, I value corner exit speed more than how much HP I make at 9000rpm


:rolleyes: Read the context of the post. And do whatever you want with that deposit either one will be a SIGNIFICANT step up from that bling you got now

I would also be interested in that setup. I have no problem pushing and pulling some wires. I would prefer the harness but would just switch it in at a later date.

Shoot me an email or PM when you are looking for Bay Area testers.

Originally posted by MP5


:rolleyes: Read the context of the post. And do whatever you want with that deposit either one will be a SIGNIFICANT step up from that bling you got now

Whooo, I know fall must be round the corner cause the temperature just dropped. It's a little bitter in here right now.
I'm going to guess - Evolution owner cold front passing through.:lol:

lstepnio-- Hard to know for sure since we've only done one car. Ask me again in a couple of weeks after we get a few more running, both local and out-of-state. Our tuning partner in crime at Axis Power Racing (who just received delivery of an AWD Dyno Dynamics Dyno) is going to work with us in making sure our out-of-state 93/94 baseline maps are safe and consistent. At this point, however, I'm quite confident that the baseline maps will be sound.

xfactor834-- To make as much power as a 993 Turbo (the last of the aircooled bad boys), the STi has to make another ~40 wheel hp which, realistically, should only be a turbo and injector upgrade away. An upgraded TMIC would be a nice upgrade as well since that STi IC is looking smaller and smaller the more airflow we push through that big motor.

With the turbo upgrade, the STi will loose some of its silly low to midrange torque but will sustain what it makes higher into the revs). And as such, it should accelerate on par with the Porsche. That is, 114-116mph trap speeds in the 1/4 mile should be a snap. Even at this Stage 1 level, I'd be dissappointed if trap speeds were under 111mph, despite the extra shift the 6 speed requires. It's already making more power and a LOT more torque than the Stage 2 WRX (2.0> of course) we entered in the "Spank the STi" test in SCC a couple months ago which ran 110-111mph trap speeds. We'll see soon enough, I guess.


Its much easier/cheaper to pick-up TT power from the STi than it would be for a TT owner to gain an equal amount/percentage of power.

Not so fast :) We recently got a prototype Porsche XEDE working on a 993 Twin Turbo. With just initial fuel, spark and boost mapping, it made an extra 80 wheel hp which makes it a 500+bhp rocket ship. Haven't even touched the exhaust system or turbos yet.

As illustrated by comparing the STi to a regular WRX, it's hard to beat displacement. And the Porsche has a 1.1L advantage over the STi! Incredible car. Nothing else like it. There is no substitute. I want one for keeps.

stott-- We're looking for more Bay Area testers now. If you're interested, give us a call on Tuesday or send an email to sales@vishnutuning with your contact info and we'll call you back.

Have a great long weekend guys!

Shiv

Originally posted by strangerq


Whooo, I know fall must be round the corner cause the temperature just dropped. It's a little bitter in here right now.
I'm going to guess - Evolution owner cold front passing through.:lol:

:rolleyes: how quickly you forget strangerq
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=407243

You can check out my evo (6th pic)

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance

xfactor834-- To make as much power as a 993 Turbo (the last of the aircooled bad boys), the STi has to make another ~40 wheel hp which, realistically, should only be a turbo and injector upgrade away. An upgraded TMIC would be a nice upgrade as well since that STi IC is looking smaller and smaller the more airflow we push through that big motor.

Not so fast :) We recently got a prototype Porsche XEDE working on a 993 Twin Turbo. With just initial fuel, spark and boost mapping, it made an extra 80 wheel hp which makes it a 500+bhp rocket ship. Haven't even touched the exhaust system or turbos yet.

As illustrated by comparing the STi to a regular WRX, it's hard to beat displacement. And the Porsche has a 1.1L advantage over the STi! Incredible car. Nothing else like it. There is no substitute. I want one for keeps.

Shiv

If you really wanna play with the TT, get a slightly used Z06 and for less than 10k have one of several tuners work a little magic with a blower, cams and a few tweaks. Weighs less than the WRX, at least (and probably better) aerodynamics than the Porsche. If you're really crazy you can get 20 or so miles north of 200mph. Not the uber-wagen the TT is, but something that you might be able to afford..

Of course iffen you're der-Arnold.. get that TT and send it off to Ruff for a little refinement...

Yep, the Z06 is an amazing car, though if you swap the WRX spare/jack for a can of Fix-a-Flat like the Z06, they're pretty much the exact same weight.

Car & Driver had a cute blurb at the end of their recent 4 cylinder super tuner shootout. The expensive, tuned S2000 beat everyone (Cobb WRX, Evo's, etc.), but then they tried a stock Z06 and beat them all.

I also like the sleeper aspect of a compact sedan, not that the STi is that much of a sleeper, though only the more knowledgeable drivers know it's something different than the usual big winged ricer cars.

Russ

Wait, did he say 80 WHP from an XEDE retune?!?

What the fizzle...

Talk about hidden horsepower!

- Janq

Originally posted by rlavalle
Yep, the Z06 is an amazing car, though if you swap the WRX spare/jack for a can of Fix-a-Flat like the Z06, they're pretty much the exact same weight.

Car & Driver had a cute blurb at the end of their recent 4 cylinder super tuner shootout. The expensive, tuned S2000 beat everyone (Cobb WRX, Evo's, etc.), but then they tried a stock Z06 and beat them all.

I also like the sleeper aspect of a compact sedan, not that the STi is that much of a sleeper, though only the more knowledgeable drivers know it's something different than the usual big winged ricer cars.

Russ cuz the Cobb WRX never completely recovered from the SCC watertruck crash... otherwise it ll own the Z06 so bad

I would hope that an $86k WRX would beat out a Z06.

Originally posted by RichQY
cuz the Cobb WRX never completely recovered from the SCC watertruck crash... otherwise it ll own the Z06 so bad
Maybe. It's hard to overcome the Z06's low CG, width and instant torque.

-Devil's Advocate

Originally posted by CBoldman
I would hope that an $86k WRX would beat out a Z06.

ditto!

but guys.

i assume you guys all read the SCC's AWD shoot out issue.

and i can't believe anyone who wasn't impressed by that Cobb WRX.

Sorry but conebasher is a steaming pile. "wee a $80K modded WRX that isn't much better than a mildly worked over STi".

Mindblowing when built, blows right now.

Shiv,

I have family in St. Louis and make trips up to that area often, i would definately be willing to use my car for testing if you need. I will shoot you an email. Thanks

Shiv: Was the STI lower than you expected? ~210 WHP seems low for a 300crank car no?

No offense, but I'd take a 911 TT over a Z06 or STi any day of the week. :) As for the conebasher car, it does very well in autocross, which is what it was meant for. It certainly did recover from the water tank incident. The car isn't owned by Cobb, it's owned by Chris Fleming, who autocrosses it and has been doing so all year.

Well Shiv,

You're going to be getting a lot more customers now especially after this dyno plot was posted in the "ECM reflash..." thread in the STi information center:

http://members.cox.net/sterlingday/sterlingday/images/Dyno1.jpg

That is a before and after dyno plot of the Subaru Ping fix reflash. My car is going in for the reflash on Tuesday and i must say that i'm really really dissappointed to see that much of a loss.

Shiv,
I remember you saying that the pinging issue was a rather stupid mistake on the FHI engineers' part and that you would get to talking about that and what exactly they did. What i don't understand is how you're able to make more HP/TQ in such little time with 91 octane and the FHI engineers end up losing 20 hp/ft-lbs. and 93 octane is still required with their reflash. The fact my car pings out of the box on 94 octane is already a horrible situation. But now because of poor tuning and R&D on subarus part we have to settle with a car that has less HP/TQ than advertised?!?! Subaru, THAT IS F_ING BS!!....:furious:

Anyway, to get to my point. Now since there is a difference in the reflash, is the same power going to be had with a ECU that has been flashed with the maps you've created? or is the powerloss of the reflash going to go hand in hand with powergains?

Awaiting your always helpful and infomative reply,
Tom

Edited: posted wrong plot, fixed

Look at the Mazda RX-8 lower power=buyback or other perks. Subaru kept the horespower the same, but lost massive torque and gave up both in the lower rpm's. I am in process of having mine reflashed, but now am tempted to go get my car back and live with the ping untill another inexpensive option is ready to go. Or get the reflash and then have them buy my newly depowered STi back and wait again for the new Legacy turbo.:furious::furious: :furious:

Could some of this difference be because the ECU hasn't relearned this person's driving style yet?

Damn, if you really lose 20hp on the Subaru Reflash, there's no way I'm getting it.

I may even plug the OBDII port if I bring the car in for something else just to make sure they don't do a "Courtesy Reflash".

Russ

My god thats a HUGE hit on the torque peak (doesnt surprise me at all either, but thats worse than a figured it would be!). Subaru did their homework on this one folks, unlike mazda, the STi still retains similar peak HP numbers. This is why peak power means very little...you can tell it all right in that graph.

Too bad we all dont have awesome fuel cause that preflashed STi has some major kick.

It's not making the same peak HP, it's down almost 20whp, due to the fact it's making between 10-35 ft-lbs less torque across the entire powerband. Of course these weren't the same cars I believe and it was tested on completely different days. A real test would be to swap ECUs between two cars, so I take those results with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by dwx
No offense, but I'd take a 911 TT over a Z06 or STi any day of the week. :)

Me too... that is 'take' as in if given to me on the other hand if the word was 'buy'.. I would 'BUY' the Z06 or STI before I bought the TT unless someone is willing to sell (read that GIVE) me the TT at a comparable price.. and then I would probably 'SELL' the TT and buy the STI, the Z06, and a nice little taliban toyota I need for work...

they definitely should retest that STi after a couple of tanks of gas...

With larger injectors, what would the fuel economy be like. I'm wondering if it goes down too much, it may be worth sticking to "just" 370ish hp to stay with stock injectors.

These results impress me, but I'm not at all surprised. I have that since the beginning that the Evo was better stock, but the STi was built with room for aftermarket improvements to really open it up. Softer suspension stock leaves room for an upgrade to stiffer suspension. Lower boost stock leaves room for higher boost aftermarket. Excellent to see a bit of that happening.

Larger injectors shouldn't hurt gas mileage... as long as you keep your right foot under control.

Russ

Indeed... larger injectors only hurt gas mileage as much as the driver wants it to. This is of course assuming the injectors can maintain a stable/stoich idle at or above MIOT. Used to have this problem on my turbo Miata where the only way to keep the large injectors from stalling was to have it run massively rich at idle. Eventually was able to rectify the issue by firing the injectors in sequential mode vs. batch but that's another story. Like so I've gotten up to 880cc/min injectors to idle perfectly stoich on a 1.9l Miata motor, and the only time you notice a reduction in gas mileage is when you get into a lot of boost. FWIW on the highway that same Miata will average 28-32mpg (a little better than stock.) It's all in the tuning, and I'm sure when Shiv releases a Stage 2 or higher for the STi it will have impeccable drivability. I know that is very important to him and takes great pride in the drivability and overall performance of every car he does. I've seen this time and again over the past few years in a number of vehicles and every time I have been impressed.

--Matt

Originally posted by PPower
With larger injectors, what would the fuel economy be like. I'm wondering if it goes down too much, it may be worth sticking to "just" 370ish hp to stay with stock injectors.


The Stage 1 STi we're mapping is seeing a max of just over 90% injector duty cycle which is as high as we want to go. The turbo is also maxed out at this point so there is really no reason for an injector upgrade at this point. With an upgraded turbo, it will certainly be neccessary.

As for the factory remap, more on that later. Need to talk to someone first :)

Cheers,
Shiv

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
As for the factory remap, more on that later. Need to talk to someone first :)Thanks Shiv. :)

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
Perhaps one more local and 2 out-of-state. If you, or anyone else, is interested, give us a call. We should be able to ship the whole kit within the next 2 weeks.

Hey Shiv,
Hello from Hawaii, can I be one of the out-of-state guys? I have a turbo-back already,(P.D.E down-pipe and TANABE SUPER HYPER MEDALION Cat- Back Exhaust) I would just need the XEDE.:D

Originally posted by dwx
Of course these weren't the same cars I believe and it was tested on completely different days. A real test would be to swap ECUs between two cars, so I take those results with a grain of salt.

And the reflashed car was tested on a very hot day... and... the original poster made some pretty big disclaimers. I think it is irresponsible to repeat what is basically dubious information; everyone should read the thread in the STi forum.

If someone can get an STi on a dyno with two ECUs (one original, one reflashed) both of which have some learning mileage on the car, and they do the reflashed ECU both first and third to null out any heat soak factor then it might be close to accurate information.

As far as the Shiv STi tuning goes, wow, maybe I should get my deposit on the 2004 911 Turbo back. :eek: :eek:

Glenn

Shiv,

I am in southern CA and I own gas stations down here. I tend to only run 100 octane in my car since I detest 91 craptane. Anyways, I want to beta test the XEDE if you are still looking for people to do this. I can also extensively test a race gas map since that is pretty much all I run. Let me know. I really want to buy one of those units.

Thanks!

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance

As for the factory remap, more on that later. Need to talk to someone first :)


Well, I never got a chance to talk to the person I wanted to talk to. And even if I did, it would be formally denied by all parties involved :) Anyway, here's my take on the STi detonation issue :

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=415592

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
Can't wait to see what happens on 93/94 and then on 100+ race gas :)

Any Updates?

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
If someone can get an STi on a dyno with two ECUs (one original, one reflashed) both of which have some learning mileage on the car, and they do the reflashed ECU both first and third to null out any heat soak factor then it might be close to accurate information.Glenn

I plan to take my essentially stock STI to a dyno this week to run a baseline. Resetting the ECU right before the run will take out any "learning" issues.

Then the ECU goes for reflash. The car will be in my garage while it has no brain.

Upon return of the ECU, we will go to the same dyno, reset the ECU and rerun the baseline.

Will this suffice, assuming that the temp in the room is not too different for the two runs?

In addition to air temp and humidity, you should also make sure that the oil and water temps are within a few degrees between the two dyno sessions. Even then it's best to either average the runs, or do six or so runs with each ECU and compare the best, or worst if you prefer, from each set.

Originally posted by STI_FFY


I plan to take my essentially stock STI to a dyno this week to run a baseline. Resetting the ECU right before the run will take out any "learning" issues.

Then the ECU goes for reflash. The car will be in my garage while it has no brain.

Upon return of the ECU, we will go to the same dyno, reset the ECU and rerun the baseline.

Will this suffice, assuming that the temp in the room is not too different for the two runs?

Better than what data we have now.

It would be better if it was the same session with a cool down time in between. I also think because in my case the reflashed ECU seemed to give not so good performance the first day that it would be better to have some miles on both ECUs for the test, of course once you remove power you'll lose what they learned.

I can't think of a real easy way to test this, maybe Shiv and nmyeti could throw in some ideas to get a good comparison?

Glenn

Originally posted by STI_FFY
Resetting the ECU right before the run will take out any "learning" issues. Reset before the run, and then do the Vishnu learning technique on the way to the dyno - that way, both ecu's should be as skippy as they're going to get.

Originally posted by Austin
Reset before the run, and then do the Vishnu learning technique on the way to the dyno - that way, both ecu's should be as skippy as they're going to get.

Vishnu learning technique? Last time I tried something like that, I had to take my girlfriend to the hospital.

The BEST way to do it would be to have a reflashed car and an earlier build car on the dyno the same day...but there may be production variances, so even that isn't a perfect solution.

I say get the reflash, then use a XEDE to even things out...like you guys need an excuse anyway. :)

Would it be possible to rig something up to retian power in the ECU while it was removed? Can't take much juice, maybe a few flashlight batteries riged together that could be clipped in place before uplugging the ECU?

To keep my clock and radio presets active I just use a 9V battery with some alligator clips to attach to the cars battery cables before I unhook them. Even though its only 9V it works fine.

If its possible to rig something up, then you'd need 2 cars, one reflashed, one original. Take the ECU out of the unflashed car, but preserve its memory with power. Place the reflashed ECU into this car, and drive it long enough that everyone can be sure its map is fully learned. Dyno the car with the flashed ECU. Swap the other ECU in, which still has its learned map preserved, and dyno again. Make sure the IC isn't heat soaked, oil and water temp are similar, etc, etc.

Same car, same day, same dyno, same environment, 2 ECU's with maps learned for that car.

OK, you need 3 cars, one for the guy that gave up his flashed ECU to drive while the other car is driving around with his ECU.

Alternatively, if it really only takes 40 miles or so for the flashed ECU to learn, you could do essentially all of the above in one day without needing to rig something to preserve ECU power. Dyno the unflashed car, swap in the flashed, reset ECU, drive for 40 miles or so in whatever manner is best for ECU learning, and dyno again (making sure water, oil, IC temps are similar)

You guys are trying way too hard here. Swapping ECU's will start them both from their base maps. Six or so dyno runs are enough to have the ECU learn any extra advance. Then do like I said, and either average the runs, or take the highest or lowest from each, and compare those. All you're looking for is the delta between the two.

If the dyno set up is like Vishnu's there will be a fan laying across the IC ... so IC temps should end up being the same ... as long as ambient temperature is the same.

This really should be done with the same car and 2 ECUs. Giving them both the same learning experience would be ideal. Same Dyno, Same day, same temp, humidity, etc.

Let the only variable be the ECU program.

Russ

does anybody know what the yellow injectors flow rate is?

The pink STi injectors are ~560cc, I was under the impression that the yellow ones will flow even more but it looks like they are in between the stock WRX ones and the pink ones. That sux.

I believe they are around 550cc or so. Why does it suck? You can't use the injectors on anything but an sti anyways.

Originally posted by zacek
does anybody know what the yellow injectors flow rate is?

The pink STi injectors are ~560cc, I was under the impression that the yellow ones will flow even more but it looks like they are in between the stock WRX ones and the pink ones. That sux.

Factory rate yellow at 534cc

Factory rate pink at 520cc

We all know pinks flow a little more than 550cc

Yellows actual flow?

Need yellows flow tested as its only a guess otherwise

I am sure the factory rating is on STi pump (which I think is less) not the Walbro - should affect these bench test flow rates thrown around right?

I don't think it's a factor of the pump as much as it is what fuel pressure they're being run at.

Russ

Yeah I see your point. In a way kinda what I was getting at without getting into the regulator or anything or to technical - but definitely worth noting that the factory likely rates in a controlled setting and based on factory ratings - in similar set ups yellow likely flows a bit more than pink.

Originally posted by 954DRGSR


Any Updates?

Yep. We dyno'd the car again this morning running on a race gas mixture of 96-97 octane. Able to run a bit more timing and a bit less fuel, it made 284 wheel hp and 310ft-lbs of torque! At this stage, we're making 30ft-lbs of torque more than a 993 turbo. HP still has another 10-15 more ponies to go before catching up to the Porsche. That torque is simply stunning. Rolling on the gas in 1st gear will spin all four tires without any clutch slip :)

Cheers,
shiv

Again, this is on our dyno dynamics dyno. Dynapacks and Dynojets will read substantially higher :)

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
it made 284 wheel hp and 310ft-lbs of torque! Rolling on the gas in 1st gear will spin all four tires without any clutch slip :)

Cheers,
shiv

HOLY TRUNK MONKIES !

That's awesome. I'm saving my pennies. I've always wanted to torture 4 tires mercilessly. :banana:

This car is incredible, and so are you and your team.

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


Yep. We dyno'd the car again this morning running on a race gas mixture of 96-97 octane. Able to run a bit more timing and a bit less fuel, it made 284 wheel hp and 310ft-lbs of torque! At this stage, we're making 30ft-lbs of torque more than a 993 turbo. HP still has another 10-15 more ponies to go before catching up to the Porsche. That torque is simply stunning. Rolling on the gas in 1st gear will spin all four tires without any clutch slip :)

Cheers,
shiv

Again, this is on our dyno dynamics dyno. Dynapacks and Dynojets will read substantially higher :)

Damn thats sick sick stuff so there it is boys and girlies STi goodness + porsche #s

The factor to arrive at Crank HP with the Dyno Dynamics Dyno is approximately 1.4X ... deduced from what stock WRX's pull on that Dyno ...

So Shiv is getting close to 400 Crank HP out of that STI ... :eek:

All together friends :banana: Shiv:banana: Shiv:banana: Shiv:banana: Yeaaaaa!!!!

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


That torque is simply stunning. Rolling on the gas in 1st gear will spin all four tires without any clutch slip :)

Cheers,
shiv



Tell me that you are exagerating...PLEEZE!! I don't want an Xede, but boy is it tempting.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


Yep. We dyno'd the car again this morning running on a race gas mixture of 96-97 octane. Able to run a bit more timing and a bit less fuel, it made 284 wheel hp and 310ft-lbs of torque! At this stage, we're making 30ft-lbs of torque more than a 993 turbo. HP still has another 10-15 more ponies to go before catching up to the Porsche. That torque is simply stunning. Rolling on the gas in 1st gear will spin all four tires without any clutch slip :)


Shazam!

- Janq

Originally posted by metoo


Tell me that you are exagerating...PLEEZE!! I don't want an Xede, but boy is it tempting.

He's not... I watched... I believe it. :D

and XEDE = NO KNOCK right???


darn it.. i am so in for 1...

i am gonna ditch the Stereo plan and big GOGOGO w/ Vishnu!!!!


993 baby here i come!!!!:banana:

No knock even on 91, while making an extra 45 whp.

Incredible.

-Jon

I have to chime in, the car is simply amazing.

Basically, it feels as if you are in a 4 wheel motorcycle, throttle responds is quick, nice exhaust tone, and tons of torque.

Acceleration is awesome, I've thrown several passengers back into their seat when they weren't playing attention.

I can't believe the memories that it brings back. It reminds me of my old muscle cars (Big V8s) except you have all the refinement of a modern vehicle.

Lastly, no more pinging. For the first four thousand miles, the concerns of detenation on your engine will just ruin the experience, imagine not having to worry about the pinging. I emphathize with current STi owner, its not fun.

One tank of gas gone, filling it up tonight to play with it some more this weekend.

-Late
Sam :lol:

So wait, Sam are you saying this car is not just a techincal exercise shop queen?! This is actually a real ride thats streeted and driven on the highway?!

OMG, dude you _need_ to record audio & video of this machine ASAP and post it here for all to see. I'm being totally serious. Do you realize how many people have been waiting on decent power mods for the STi?!!!!

I for one could give a care about top end as I'm more interested in low end torque (acceleration) and mid-range for para-legal highway speed crusing. This thing sounds like my sickest dream.

Run don't walk to your local library and rent a video camera to record proof positive of this machine, ASAP. There are folks here on the board who can convert it for you digital or contact 'WRX What' owner of www.USDMSTI.com as he too will get it converted and hosted for all to see.

Shazam!

- Janq

Can we see some of these dyno sheets?

-- Ed

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance


Yep. We dyno'd the car again this morning running on a race gas mixture of 96-97 octane. Able to run a bit more timing and a bit less fuel, it made 284 wheel hp and 310ft-lbs of torque! At this stage, we're making 30ft-lbs of torque more than a 993 turbo. HP still has another 10-15 more ponies to go before catching up to the Porsche. That torque is simply stunning. Rolling on the gas in 1st gear will spin all four tires without any clutch slip :)

Cheers,
shiv

Again, this is on our dyno dynamics dyno. Dynapacks and Dynojets will read substantially higher :)

ok, thats it, I need one of these now :) My car needs to go faster

P-rex:D

I'm going to talk to my dealer about an STI this lunchtime ;)

Not trying to hijack this thread, but this will be my last post. I will start a new thread with pictures in the appropriate forum.

Janq - Give me some time and I will see what I can do, I am not sure what to record.

This car will be a daily commuter, I've put 5K miles on it already, since 6/24. I expect more to come.

Ed - If Shiv is ok with this, I'll post it. I have the dyno chart already scanned. I'll upload it as soon as I hear back from him.

Sam

Originally posted by samlwu
Not trying to hijack this thread, but this will be my last post. I will start a new thread with pictures in the appropriate forum.

Janq - Give me some time and I will see what I can do, I am not sure what to record.

This car will be a daily commuter, I've put 5K miles on it already, since 6/24. I expect more to come.

Ed - If Shiv is ok with this, I'll post it. I have the dyno chart already scanned. I'll upload it as soon as I hear back from him.

Sam

Sam,

See about recording audio of the engine at the tail pipe, from inside the car at idle as well as while on the roll (driving).

Video data would be third person perspective via a chase car to show the relative acceleration of the car from a stand still between two fixed points and on the roll such as a 30-50 & 50-80 acceleration in top gear (sixth). All performabce figures should be logged too.

These are easy/simple/quick things that can be done and can be compared to a stock STi for relative comparison. Some folks might want drag stip 1/4 mile numbers but thats not realy relative to us all as not all of us have access to a track. And even those that do will have different times at different tracks (surfaces) and elevations. Also, real world usage numbers are most useful for the masses.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.


- Janq
IAmMeToo@Hotmail.com

The reason i was inquiring about the injector's flow rate is because sooner or later in order to take advantage of a bigger turbo on the STi I am afraid the injectors will be another restriction just like on the WRX. I wonder up to how much power will the yellow injectors support. According to Shiv's report he's seeing 90% duty cycle on those at ~270wHP. Therefore a comparable Stage 2 for the STi which should deliver around 310wHP with a... lets say PE1820 or APS SR40, will the stock injectors suport this?

Originally posted by zacek
The reason i was inquiring about the injector's flow rate is because sooner or later in order to take advantage of a bigger turbo on the STi I am afraid the injectors will be another restriction just like on the WRX. I wonder up to how much power will the yellow injectors support. According to Shiv's report he's seeing 90% duty cycle on those at ~270wHP. Therefore a comparable Stage 2 for the STi which should deliver around 310wHP with a... lets say PE1820 or APS SR40, will the stock injectors suport this?

I'll bet that at 310WHP, which is a 13% increase, the injectors will be at the top end of adequate. Of course more would be better to avoid the potential of a lean out condition (not enough fuel) but the ECU will learn and adapt to the new conditions and most likely handle it for the long run.
No further power gains could be expected though beyond that point without more fuel/higher flow rate injectors.

Call me cheap but 310WHP will keep me happy for a long time.
I'd keep my stock injectors and motor on down the road... :banana:

- Janq

Depends on how big you want to go. I think you could bolt on a slightly larger turbo and probably run ok with the stock sized injectors. Like a VF34 or VF23 or something of that nature. I don't know if either of those turbos will be worth the trouble though. I think the VF34 would be a good compromise in not sacrificing much low end while improving on the top end where the 39 falls off. I was kind of surprised they didn't put a VF34 on the car stock running low boost. It'd be neat if Shiv just took the 39 off and tuned the stage 1 setup with a VF30/34 and see if it helps increase the top end any.

I think if you want to run a PE1820 or SR40/50 down the road and alot of boost on pump gas you'll need the supporting mods like injectors.

Hi Sam

Go ahead and post it up. I'm out of town so I can't do it myself :)

Cheers,
Shiv

I was under the impression that the VF39 was very close to a VF34 in capacity.

If the VF34 has a theoretical capacity to flow 350hp worth of air, then the fact that the VF39 is pushing nearly 400 means it's right there! :)

Maybe the VF34 can put out similar or a bit more power in a similar situation?

Russ

FWIW, the most power we have ever made (on our dyno) on a 2.0 with a VF30/34 is 260 wheel hp. It was on a Stage 2 car running race gas. Just ran out of airflow. It's hard to say if that that would be the hp limit on the 2.5.

Comparing the two turbos next to each other don;t reveal any obvious differences in compressor and turbine sizing. We had the VF39 off the car and a VF30 in hand but decided to wait until we had something that would be more of a definite upgrade over the stock turbo.

That said, we have matched a bolt-on turbo that should be capable of supporting 300-330 wheel hp (on our dyno) while still retaining good boost response characteristics. The math suggest it would be a far better match than using a PE turbo or a 20G. That turbo, big injectors and an intercooler upgrade should make this car hustle quite well. We'll see soon enough :)

Cheers,
Shiv

Here is the dyno sheet. I'm using yahoo briefcase to host this file. If someone wants to host the image, great, otherwise its here.

http://f1.pg.briefcase.yahoo.com/samlwu

Sam

Thats so nice a 20G will fill in that top end very nice;)

Originally posted by MP5
Thats so nice a 20G will fill in that top end very nice;)

....and probably spill out all of the lowend under 4300rpm

Yo makofoto-
Could you reduce the size of that dyno sheet pic to maybe 800 pixels wide and proportional height?

http://members.aol.com/rcrwrex/dynosheet.jpg

Brett,

I talked to Ken today at your shop (Friday Sept 5th) and he took down my details if you need more STi beta folks. I'm about 20 minutes away from your shop.

I had indicated to Ken about just doing the XEDE, but come to think of it maybe entire Stage I is a better option.

I'll also be running 96 octane race gas. I have a local shop that sells 10 gallon drums of 100 octane unleaded - I just use a 50/50 mix with 91.

Keep up the good work, I'm available if you need me.

Rob.

Comparing those STi charts to WRX charts makes me feel very insignificant...

http://www.vishnutuning.com/images/subzero1a.jpg

It's amazing what a 25% increase in displacement will do to power output!

Originally posted by drees
It's amazing what a 25% increase in displacement will do to power output!

And don't forget variable valve timing. Does wonders for maximizing the torque curve at all engine speeds. Without it, I wouldn't be surprised if we took a 30-50ft-lb hit in the midrange.

Shiv

.5L, AVCS, and a bigger turbo...

Originally posted by dwx
.5L, AVCS, and a bigger turbo...

And don't we get a timing chain in lieu of a timing belt too.

- Janq

I'm assuming you cannot control the AVCS as far as how much overlap or when it "kicks in". It just functions as it would were the car stock, just with extra power right. Was there any issue of tuning around the AVCS. Meaning was it causing any problems or could you tune as you normally would. Would it then be safe to say the xede could work with a jdm 2.0 sti engine also. Thanks.

Originally posted by Janq


And don't we get a timing chain in lieu of a timing belt too.

- Janq Nope, still has a belt. Stronger than the normal belt though.

Bum bump bump Bump it up!

I assumed that it should be possible to adjust when it kicks in only because Comptech does it with Honda engines. That doesn't mean it is possible for Subaru, but at least there are some valve timing systems that can be adjusted when the change occurs.

Since the second test was done on 96-97 octane instead of 93, will there be another run coming soon? I hate to get so giddy about 430tq in the STi if 96 octane is needed. Not that I have an STi anyway, but you know. ;)

Originally posted by metoo
Bum bump bump Bump it up!

Metoo,

Are you a fan of 'go-go'?
You originally from DC?

Thats an old school beat by 'Little Benny & The Masters' (!).
Not a widely known commercial/MTV exposed group.

- Janq

"...One man, one hundred dollars and a one track mind." - Stinky Dink

Well, the did put down 272ft-lbs on 91 octane :devil:

Originally posted by PPower
...Since the second test was done on 96-97 octane instead of 93, will there be another run coming soon? I hate to get so giddy about 430tq in the STi if 96 octane is needed. Not that I have an STi anyway, but you know. ;)

I would.

As always one's mileage my vary as every car/engine differs mechanically in one way or another. Some may make more while others less with the same mods.

If 96-97 RON gains you 430Tq then its reasonable to expect 415+ with 90-91 RON 'Supreme'. I'll take that with a shake & fries. ;)

- Janq

Originally posted by psalm
Well, the did put down 272ft-lbs on 91 octane :devil:

Yeah, and that was at baseline as I recall (?).

- Janq

Originally posted by Janq
If 96-97 RON gains you 430Tq then its reasonable to expect 415+ with 90-91 RON 'Supreme'. Our fuel octane rating is (MON + RON)/2, not simply RON. And you'd lose a whole lot more than 15tq dropping from 96 octane to 91 octane, especially at those power levels...

Originally posted by Austin
Our fuel octane rating is (MON + RON)/2, not simply RON. And you'd lose a whole lot more than 15tq dropping from 96 octane to 91 octane, especially at those power levels...

Yep your right...I keep forgetting you boys on the west coast get cider vinegar for fuel. ;)

- Janq

Originally posted by Janq
cider vinegar for fuel. That's a much more generous term than most people use... :lol:

I believe it is more commonly known as "squirrel piss." ;)

--Matt

I was trying to be Disneyesque and analogizing. :p

- Janq

bump

Shiv or Brett,

Could you post a chart for a 911 if you have one. Would like to see how similar or disimilar the curves are in comparison to the STi specifically on your dyno. :banana:

http://members.aol.com/rcrwrex/dynosheet.jpg

I got an EMAIL that "pkooza" had replied to this thread, but there is no post from him here.

I am sending this as a test...

Any news on the availability of stage 1?

*bump*

We will try to scan the 911 turbo plot over the STI one on Monday.

Brett.

Any progress?
And do you have any installation centers in Chicago area?
I am hoping to get a stage one for my STi.

I called Vishnu today.....2 weeks for the XEDE!

Originally posted by RafalW
Any progress?
And do you have any installation centers in Chicago area?
I am hoping to get a stage one for my STi.

Looks like the nearest one for you is in Minnesota. However, call the shop, as there are going to be some more official Vishnu installers coming on soon. [size=1]Also, pretty much any competent mechanic can install the STi stages. Nothing complicated at all with them.[size]

Originally posted by broadfield
I called Vishnu today.....2 weeks for the XEDE!

At least. ChipTorque is having difficulty keeping up with ever-increasing demand for these things. Be glad you aren't waiting for an Evo stage kit- the wait is almost a month at the moment.

Originally posted by BAN SUVS
Looks like the nearest one for you is in Minnesota. However, call the shop, as there are going to be some more official Vishnu installers coming on soon. Also, pretty much any competent mechanic can install the STi stages. Nothing complicated at all with them.
But I thought the best way is to do a dyno tuning for each car. Will the standard map be good enough?

Originally posted by RafalW

But I thought the best way is to do a dyno tuning for each car. Will the standard map be good enough?

Base stage tunes usually seem to work well. They're tuned on the safe side and will tide you over until you get the chance to get a real dyno tune.

Originally posted by RafalW

But I thought the best way is to do a dyno tuning for each car. Will the standard map be good enough?

GRD is the only shop in Chicago that has an AWD dyno that really tunes cars. They could probably handle tuning the Xede. Shiv will likely release a different map for 91 vs. 93 octane map so the 93 octane map should be a decent starting point. They could certainly handle installing the Vishnu kit.

Originally posted by dwx
GRD is the only shop in Chicago that has an AWD dyno that really tunes cars. They could probably handle tuning the Xede.
THX, nice!
They are selling Vishnu Power Kits already. :)
Looks like a good place for me.

When will you be able to install and tune a plug-and-play XEDE setup for me? I really want one.

Originally posted by Vishnu Performance
We termininate the ends of the wire-in XEDE harness with OE male and female terminals. One extracts the necessary wires (MAF, MAP, TPS, CAS) from the stock ECU connectors. To do this, you use a paper-clip to pull back the little clip that holds each wire inside the connector. With these wires extracted, you push them (they are already male terminated) into female terminated wires from the XEDE harness. Then you push four male terminated XEDE wires into the factory ECU connectors, replacing the wires that you extracted in step one. And that's it. No wire cutting and no need to add a plug-in extension harness which adds a couple hundred solder joints and a couple hundred sections of wire to the system.

Shiv,

For your current XEDE owners - could you provide us with a source for those OE terminal connectors? They aren't the same Deutsch connectors the XEDE uses are they?

The reason I ask for this is that Delta Dash only sees the modified signals not the raw signals for data logging and XEDE does not have a very complete logger. Use of these connectors would make utilizing LabJack with DeltaDash much easer than tapping the OE or Xede harness for raw data signals.

Thanks,
Ed.

R U sure that they will be available in plug-in form in two weeks? i don't think anyone has the connectors in-hand or knows exactly when they will arrive.

Holy crap. All this fuss over the Stage 1... Is anone else scared to see what Stage 2 brings? Stage 3?

:eek: :D :disco:

Originally posted by Brett@Vishnu
We will try to scan the 911 turbo plot over the STI one on Monday.

Brett.

I'd like to see this. :)

Originally posted by Pre-diddy
Holy crap. All this fuss over the Stage 1... Is anone else scared to see what Stage 2 brings? Stage 3?
Stage 1 is exactly what I am planing for my car. I want just unlock the engine not tune it like hell. ECU, exhaust and maybe intake are all I want to do.

I'll go as far as I can untill I have to start modding things like the clutch and tranny. I'll stop before I hit that mark.:p You make a good point about "unlocking" the engine but if it can (safely) take a couple more lbs of boost through upgraded turbo, or take a bit more timing advance etc. I'm willing to go that far.

Besides, even if you plan to leave your car bone stock, it is confidence inspiring and fun/satisfying to know what you could do if you wanted to.;)

good lord...... where do i sign up.

i guess i should read more before making phone calls.

what an absolute hoot. and i can write it off as a "ping fix".

road trip.

Total Distance: 833.16 miles
Total Estimated Time: 13 hours, 33 minutes

hmmmm, i wonder how long it takes to do the xede and dyno it for a BPM twin dump turbo back?

shiv, if you feel your stage 1 will hold up in hell (southern AZ) on a car that pings after the factory reflash...

i'm starting to feel ill, and may have to miss a few days of work...

leave tomorrow, knock out the stage 1 on friday, hmmm,

can you guys complete one this friday?

Arrrggg....

I so want to bring it down to Vishnu but it is 950 miles away!!!...

Arrgg the pain!!!

Hmm...

Not to start any fights, but Dan Godspeed seems to be posting far better numbers with less work?

Originally posted by googe
Hmm...

Not to start any fights, but Dan Godspeed seems to be posting far better numbers with less work?

Dan's doing great stuff too, but you may be comparing apples and oranges in terms of different dyno #'s. This thread is talking about pushing past 370+ hp and 400 pf torque with little more than engine management and exhaust with the stock turbo.:eek:

Originally posted by googe
Hmm...

Not to start any fights, but Dan Godspeed seems to be posting far better numbers with less work?


I don't know that Dan has any kind of engine management at his disposal yet. Dan's dyno also reads much higher than Shiv's dyno. He was just using simple bolt ons with a boost controller and that's it. Generally different tuners get around the same numbers in the end using the same tools.

I see. So it seems Dans early stages were producing much higher numbers, but after putting a little more work into it, Shivs were higher?

Im not so familiar with the greddy e-manage, but is that not engine management? Thats what Dan is using.

e-manage is an interceptor, but to my knowledge only a MAF and MAP interceptor. I won't even bother saying "kind of like XEDE" because XEDE is significantly more. They both use intercepting techniques but any similarity ends there.

Anyone who is going to insist on posting X has higher numbers than Y should at least say what the base of the dyno is for X and Y first.

Originally posted by jehcpa
e-manage is an interceptor, but to my knowledge only a MAF and MAP interceptor. I won't even bother saying "kind of like XEDE" because XEDE is significantly more. They both use intercepting techniques but any similarity ends there.

Anyone who is going to insist on posting X has higher numbers than Y should at least say what the base of the dyno is for X and Y first.

Yeah, I suppose it could be due to different dynos. Makes it difficult, in some ways defeats the purpose of a dyno to not accurately output the hp/tq numbers. Maybe we should be paying more attention to the hp/tq increase, as opposed to the overall numbers they are pulling :)

Anywhere a guy can read more about what XEDE is? Im a little unclear about the differences between XEDE/UTEC/E-manage

Comparison of performance is a misuse of a dyno. It is a tool for the tuner and gives an idea to the customer - only unbiased road comparisons, E/T, trap speed etc can compare different cars.

There is a sticky post in engine management that briefly covers differences.

WRX Hackers has various user/tuners that can talk about the differences - though it is predominately UTEC. I would say a response there would be around 50/50 biased vs. not which is actually pretty good. Many there appreciate the other tools even if they don't use them.

Vishnu's site has some information on XEDE though it the marketing materials are a bit outdated since some changes by ChipTorque like boost control have taken some of the extra i/o's. Not Vishnu's fault - it is the same marketting materials ChipTorque is using - just slow to update.

XEDE's site:
http://www.xede.com.au/index.html

Again not really current and slow to update but that is what there is.

yeah, if you want to compare dyno numbers... you need to compare the difference between stock and modded numbers. If you look at plain HP or TQ numbers then youre just fooling yourself. But if you look at the change, that'll tell you the percent improvement that each tuner has had.

Bump for response.

Originally posted by jehcpaOriginally posted by Vishnu Performance
We termininate the ends of the wire-in XEDE harness with OE male and female terminals. One extracts the necessary wires (MAF, MAP, TPS, CAS) from the stock ECU connectors. To do this, you use a paper-clip to pull back the little clip that holds each wire inside the connector. With these wires extracted, you push them (they are already male terminated) into female terminated wires from the XEDE harness. Then you push four male terminated XEDE wires into the factory ECU connectors, replacing the wires that you extracted in step one. And that's it. No wire cutting and no need to add a plug-in extension harness which adds a couple hundred solder joints and a couple hundred sections of wire to the system.

Shiv,

For your current XEDE owners - could you provide us with a source for those OE terminal connectors? They aren't the same Deutsch connectors the XEDE uses are they?

The reason I ask for this is that Delta Dash only sees the modified signals not the raw signals for data logging and XEDE does not have a very complete logger. Use of these connectors would make utilizing LabJack with DeltaDash much easer than tapping the OE or Xede harness for raw data signals.<