1. Does having a wideband O2 sensor mounted in a catless uppipe cause false readings due to higher temperature and pressure? Would the reading be to lean thus in real life the A/F mixture still be too rich?
2. Is there a PNP wideband O2 sensor for the UTEC? I heard TurboXs was coming out w/ one specifically for the UTEC but it might just be a rumor.
3. Can adding too much fuel cause knock? Would the ECU generate some weird calculations due to the increase in fuel from the base Stage 2 map + increase in timing to cause knock?
4. What is the timing advanced most people are seeing as compared to the base Stage 2 map? They range in the low 20s but I heard some people got it up to 28+/- w/ no knock.
5. Are most people running negative fuel variables once the car is tunned for a learner A/F mixture? What is the A/F mixture in which people are targeting for ... 11.2:1, 10:2, 12:2:1, etc?
6. Has anyone used the extra downloadable software for the UTEC to log whp and ft/lbs on the road and not at a real dyno? Are the reading pretty accurate?

These factors are all assuming tuning in mid 50s w/ a mean target of 16.5psi max in 4th gear. Anyone w/ real world insight would really be appreciated. Thanks. :D

I believe that mounting an wideband in the upipe would indeed cause mis-reasings because it should see positive boost pressure. The best place is right where the stock 02sensor is in the exhuast, hopefully whatever aftermarket exhuast you have still has that bung in it. You can just turn the CEL off with the UTEC then..

In my stock turbo/intercooler/fuelsystem rex, i run the ignition advance up to around 26 degrees peak, although I can run 27 degrees in certain areas without knock sometimes. But if it's hot out etc. I usually switch to the map with 26degrees peak and lower boost. On my most aggressive ignition map I'm already running 25degrees at around 4,500rpms and at 5,000 rpms I go to 26, and then between 5,500-6,200rpms I'm at 27, then back to 26degrees. I normally run a peak boost of 16psi, down to 14.5psi at 6krpms, and by redline maybe 12-13psi.

As for the fuel values, I have fuel values between -1.5 to -2.8 on my most aggressive map, I have no idea what the a/f ratio is I only used EGTs to help me. I would guess to say it's as lean as 11:1, maybe leaner. But as long as I don't get detonation I don't stress about it.

Also, yes adding too much fuel can induce knock definatly. And turboxs has not released the WB02 reader yet, I think it's going to be priced around $400-$500 though according to the "rumors", but a better choice compared to other widebands if it does work with the UTEC IMO.

1. There are 2x O2 sensors stock, one in the exhaust manifold and one right before the 3rd Cat. How would the part between the exhaust manifold to uppipe see positive boost pressure? The Vishnu catless uppipe has a bung for a wideband O2 sensor, I would deduct that they put it there for a reason?
2. How does running too rich cause knock? Do you have a "theory," I just heard that it through the "grapevine."
3. Humm I thought the wideband O2 kit for the UTEC from TurobXs would be a little cheaper in the $300+/- range. :(
4. What is a good practical procedure in tunning: boost ( obtain desired boost level ) > timing ( reduce knock if necessary ) > A/F ( decrease for optimal performance but no too lean ) > timing ( advance as much as possible w/ out knock and watch A/F change )?
5. Does changing timing ( advance/pull ) cause a change in A/F ratio?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. There are 2x O2 sensors stock, one in the exhaust manifold and one right before the 3rd Cat. How would the part between the exhaust manifold to uppipe see positive boost pressure? The Vishnu catless uppipe has a bung for a wideband O2 sensor, I would deduct that they put it there for a reason?
2. How does running too rich cause knock? Do you have a "theory," I just heard that it through the "grapevine."
3. Humm I thought the wideband O2 kit for the UTEC from TurobXs would be a little cheaper in the $300+/- range. :(
4. What is a good practical procedure in tunning: boost ( obtain desired boost level ) > timing ( reduce knock if necessary ) > A/F ( decrease for optimal performance but no too lean ) > timing ( advance as much as possible w/ out knock and watch A/F change )?
5. Does changing timing ( advance/pull ) cause a change in A/F ratio?

Yeah there are two 02 sensors right, the ghetto wideband one in the exhuast manifold reads incorrectly because it is subjected to boost pressure, the reason why the UTEC logger just says rich after about 12:1. If you mount an wideband sensor in the upipe, thats just downstream from the exhuast manifold so the same thing would happen IMO. It has to be after the exhuast comes out of the exhuast side of the turbo like where the 2nd 02 sensor is by the 3rd cat.

I don't know why adding too much fuel can cause knock enough to explain it technically.

I've never had the chance to tune with an wideband so I don't know if it causes a change in the a/f ratio. I know it can cause a change in the EGT reading though, but I think that the a/f ratio stays the same. (which can make tuning with EGTs decieving sometimes)

1. Then why would Vishnu add a bung for a wideband O2 sensor in the uppipe. I don't think they'd have that type of reasoning? Vishnu or TurboXs do you guys have any comments?

2. Can anyone explain why too much fuel may cause knock in "lamemen" terms?

3. Anyone else have physical experience in the change on the A/F when the timing is changed?

4. Does calibrating the TPS make that much of a difference? What is the default and what is the goal?

5. I was reading on another post, does copying the 50% load column to the 10% load column really help reduce knocks during shifts or transition states?

6. Is there somewhere in the UTEC parameters to say ... I want 16.5psi so the boost values are a percentage of that; ie: if I'm at 80% and the specific value is 16.5 then I would get 13.2psi? Is that more close loop boost control rather than open loop?

I was also under the impression that the best place for a wide band was in the downpipe (i.e. weld in a bung, or whatever).

1. That would make sense too however I really would like to know the justification manufacturers use to design their products for the location for a WB O2 sensor.
2. TurboXs, Vishnu, etc have any factual ideas to add?
3. Why does humidity make such a huge difference? It seems like the ECU has a slow transition from open to close loop during high humidity weather thus causing knock to occur?

Everything that I've heard from different tuner points to welding bung 12-18 inches after the turbo in the downpipe. This is where there is optimal temperature for the O2 sensor. It therefore will give the most accurate readings. You don't want to tune for leaner than 11:1 on pump gas. I run 10.6:1 just to be on the safe side. If your tuning for race fuel you can often tune for 12:1.

Too much fuel can cause knock. I forget the exact reason why but I remember it being discussed.

You absolutely want to calibrate TPS so that your Utec operates correctly. Just read your instructions, it's really easy. If you go slightly over 100% it is okay, but you want to at least hit 100% at WOT.

New question #6: Boost control doesn't work like that for any type of boost controller that I know of.

1. Why is the world would some "high" tunning manufactuers have a WB O2 bung in the uppipe? I figure it would also be best in the downpipe.
2. I should start tweaking the UTEC TPS, I just haven't had too much time to read up on it. I think I shall do it this weekend.
3. I heard the EBC controls the boost much more effectively as compared to the MBC and definitely the ABC. Does an EBC help w/ boost control in aftermarket ECU in a huge manner or just a perception?

Originally posted by chuglobal


2. Can anyone explain why too much fuel may cause knock in "lamemen" terms?



hehe, lame men
I read this definition in another post: Knock/Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. This occurs after the spark.
So, if you are running too rich then there would be even more "end gas" to ignite, which would make the possibility of detonation higher or more severe.

That's actually quite interesting, I always "thought" that knock was due to the original A/F mixture combusting before the planned timing not the remaining A/F mixture left after the first combustion cycle takes place. Humm, I guess that why people have to "tune" their cars, not only are you trying to run "leaner" than factory specs to gain the most optimal hp w/out melting the engine, but also not too rich to have extra fuel left over after the first combustion cycle. Won't people who say "add extra fuel" when knock occurs because adding the more fuel to cause more knock?

Allright,
In lame men's terms.
There are multiple factors working to create/prevent knock. But, knock is most influenced by intake charge temperature. So, if you increase boost, or it's a real hot day, the odds of knock occuring are higher. Dumping in more and more fuel (richer mixture) helps to cool the intake charge from the fuel vaporizing in the charge. This works up to a point, since when you add fuel, you are essentially adding more and more points in the combustion chamber for knock to begin from (increasing the odds of knock). This factor isn't quite as strong as the intake temperature though, so it comes in later. Research by Ricardo in the 30's with a non-intercooled supercharged engine suggests that you can keep adding boost, by using more fuel to prevent knock up to about 9:1 afr, and then after that he saw that more fuel actually caused more knock. Usually if you are running 9:1 afr, your car will reek of gasoline at and your oil will smell like it too. Taking this a bit further, this is why water injection works well. Since it only cools the charge and doesn't add more sites for knock.
That's my 2cents.

And I always thought the extra bung in the uppipes was for aftermarket EGT sensors, which is the wrong place for that too.

1. Thanks for the responses. Basicaly wat I'm seeing is what I suspected after the post before my last one; adding fuel "cools" combustion chamber but too much adding to the factor that fuel remains that "could" cause knock before the next planned combustion cycle.
2. Most people agree that you want the EGT sensor as close to the engine, exhaust manifold, to obtain the most accurate readings. It seems like many aftermarket uppipes have two bungs, one for the factory EGT and the other was for the WB O2, at least this is what I thought it was for until many people shared the idea that the pressure before the turbo causes false readings. I've looked at some aftermarket downpipe manufacturers which inlcude a bung for the WB O2 sensor. I haven't literally looked recently but I remember seeing some a while back.
3. I finally changed the TPS to 100, it was at 99% w/ the default setting of 4.0. I changed it to 3.9 and now I have 103% when at WOT. Many people have stated that it's ok to be a "little" above 100% so I'm fine w/ the results.
4. I noticed the safety measures in the UTEC for coolant and air temp correction are set to 100C by default which is 212F? Isn't that like a little high for air temperature correction? Should it be like 100F, I'm assuming the air temp is the ambiant temperature of the outside. Basically what I want is that when it's say ... 90F+ degrees outside I want the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole map to prevent knock caused my higher heated air. Would I change the default air correction = 32.2C and timing correction = -1? I know how heat kills the fun out of FI cars, I just want to be safe in 90+ humid weather. I also assume the MAF senses correct outside temperature, so if the outside temperature is 90F then by the time the air hits the MAF it should still be around 90F or is it hotter?
5. When I "cruise" at say 1st or even 2nd gear at any rpms between 3-5 and suddenly go WOT, sometimes I get knock. I happens less in cold dry days and definitely more often in hot humid days. It seems like the car's ECU is on a vacation and not responding fast enough. I've read to copy the timing from the 50% load column and paste into the 10% columns, does it really work? Wouldn't the ECU still be "confused" since you're going from the control of the ECU > UTEC > ECU "very" quickly?

I've had good results building maps starting with 50% column and sometimes 40%.

Regarding temp correction... I've found that ECT isn't very crictal and can be set to 92C. IAT of 42C showed promise. I say that because correction due to heat offered little consistancy on my car as far as added knock resistance. It's important to remember how to input the correction values for fuel and timing. They *should* both be positive numbers. A positive fuel value will add fuel. A positive timing value will retard timing.

Most recently, I've been experimenting with an 'inverse correction' method. I won't get into it on this thread.

Originally posted by chuglobal

5. When I "cruise" at say 1st or even 2nd gear at any rpms between 3-5 and suddenly go WOT, sometimes I get knock. I happens less in cold dry days and definitely more often in hot humid days. It seems like the car's ECU is on a vacation and not responding fast enough. I've read to copy the timing from the 50% load column and paste into the 10% columns, does it really work? Wouldn't the ECU still be "confused" since you're going from the control of the ECU > UTEC > ECU "very" quickly? [/B]

I would really like to know this as well, its been happening to me on my more aggressive maps while runinng the 1/4

1. I figured IAT correction would be more "promising" however wasn't sure. Does the MAF sensor detect true outside air temperature or is it higher since it's in the engine bay? If you have it set to 42C then it's 107F+, would it be safer to do 33C thus 90F+ or is that being way too conservative? I guess the first part of the questions will lead into the answers for the second part.
2. I'm glad you reminded me about the correction factor, I would have adjusted the correction to -1 thinking it'd pull timing when it should be +1 to pull 1 degree of timing once the MAF reads a certain IAT.
3. Does copying the 50% column really help solve the "knock during change" issue? Why not use the 40% column instead? Would you copy the 50% to 10% column?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. Then why would Vishnu add a bung for a wideband O2 sensor in the uppipe. I don't think they'd have that type of reasoning? Vishnu or TurboXs do you guys have any comments?


Under most circumstances you want the O2 sensor in a low pressure environment that does not exceed 600 to 700 degrees C. unless you have a pressure compensated O2 sensor. Jon in CT posted a nice write up about this about a year ago if I remember correctly.

As for why Vishnu put their O2 bung in the up-pipe... you'll have to ask them.



Originally posted by chuglobal

4. Does calibrating the TPS make that much of a difference? What is the default and what is the goal?

No

Originally posted by chuglobal
[B]5. I was reading on another post, does copying the 50% load column to the 10% load column really help reduce knocks during shifts or transition states?

Yes, see the stg2new map and the stg4fmic map. We'll be releasing a stg4new map very soon. Basically on a well running UTEC car the stock ECU is going to be far too aggressive on its ignition timing and as a result you'll knock when the UTEC runs into those load sites.



Originally posted by chuglobal
[B]6. Is there somewhere in the UTEC parameters to say ... I want 16.5psi so the boost values are a percentage of that; ie: if I'm at 80% and the specific value is 16.5 then I would get 13.2psi?

No

1. The MAF sensor does NOT detect outside temperature. I checked weather channel and it's 70F+/- however the IAT was 42C+/- thus 107F which is a 37F+/- difference. I assume this is caused by the heat soak or other engine energy functions?

2. I changed my parameter for IAT correction at 45C w/ timing correction at +1 ... this should basically tell the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole board once IAT is 45C+. My goal is to pull timing when outside temperature is 85+ which I'll need to figure what the IAT would be, I'll need to look at the dashboard one day in the future.

3. I have also copied the 50% column in the timing to the 10% column, I'll need to do some aggressive driving and see what happens. I just think it's weird to have the ECU @ 0% > UTEC @ 10% > ECU @ 20%-30% > UTEC @ 40%-100%. I would think it would be more rough to switch between ECU > UTEC > ECU > UTEC?


* 4. I upgraded from version 2.5B to 3.1 last Friday and reloaded my current map; everything went as planned according to the manual instructions. However after the upgrade the stock ECU is using a "safer" map thus richer. I suddenly got knock again where it use to be fine. I'm testing the theory that my knocks are due to "extra" fuel because I always get worse gas mileage after a ECU reset and knock started to occur again. The only variable change is the extra fuel being "dumped" into the engine. Why did the ECu switch to a safer map? I didn't disconnect the battery at first but I did later, it shouldn't have switched maps right? Has anyone else seen the extra fuel problem causing knock?

3. You should look at the "stage 2 new" (http://www.turboxs.com/_images/UTEC/stg2new.txt) map again. The UTEC takes over the timing from 10% all the way up. What Nathan was describing was copying the 50% site all the way (inclusive) down to 10%.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chuglobal
[B]

2. I changed my parameter for IAT correction at 45C w/ timing correction at +1 ... this should basically tell the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole board once IAT is 45C+.

If the timing correction is +1 wouldn't add one degree?

No...

Positive timing correction actually retards timing. Negative timing will add timing.

:lol: :confused:

Originally posted by Si2WRX
No...

Positive timing correction actually retards timing. Negative timing will add timing.

:lol: :confused:

oh ok, thats silly though:p

1. I've been looking at dyno / custom tunned Stage 2 maps recently online. The optimistic part is that I see how much more aggressive the Stage 2 can be as compared to what I'm running now. Plus the factor that the fuel becomes negative which means better gas mileage along w/ more power because the mixture is more lean.

2. I "think" the majority of recent knocks were due to the "safe" map which was caused by the extra fuel in the combustion equations. I have a good feeling that once I get the A/F to the desired ratios, I can run more timing along w/ a knock free or minimum knock situations.

3. Where can I get a O2 sensor bung welded in Marietta/Atlanta area who doesn't care about exhaust mods? How much would it costs and how long would it take? Does it matter where on the DP the O2 sensor is placed or just somewhere as close to the part after the turbo?

3. Does anyone have a WB O2 sensor that's PNP the the UTEC now?

4. If you have access to a dyno, how long would it take to go through each matrix point and tune ... ie: hold at 1.5Krpm and slowly go through each load pt and go till 7K?

5. Can you make adjustments to the UTEC while on the throttle during tunning? I thought the engine should always be at idle before saving/changing maps?

1. Stg 2 has a lot of potential and can be leaned out a bit.

4. Shouldn't take too long on a dyno. An initial approach for fuel tuning... I would set the boost to near-stock level. Do a pull and log AFR and logger #1 on the Utec. The base Stg 2 map is a great starting point. Using the data from the AFR log, manipulate the values in the fuel map as needed. Raise the boost one psi and repeat. Keep working up to 16.5psi tweaking the columns as needed.

5. No? I don't completely understand what you're saying...

Question for you... where's a dyno you can tune on? Maybe we can talk SoG into letting me tune your car on their dyno :devil:

Erik

5. Can you make adjustments to the UTEC while on the throttle during tunning? I thought the engine should always be at idle before saving/changing maps?
Yes, although I'd recommend you get someone else to do the tuning while you're driving or vice versa. :p And yes, the engine should be at idle before saving (not changing) maps. You could disengage the clutch while driving, let the rpms drop to idle, save and then resume driving but this is extremely dangerous. Do yourself and your fellow motorists a favor and stop before trying to make any adjustments. ;)

I don't think there are any ECUs and/or software out there that allow you to change your maps on the fly....

Tune safely!

Cheers!

Yes you can make adjustments, but they would go into effect until you save the map. Like Chi said you can save them while your driving but the car needs to be in neutral and at a low rpm.

1. I figured there should be 0 load w/ the clutch disengaged when making changes to the UTEC just as if we would on the road. Yes I'd plan on having more than just myself around while tunning.

2. Would it create more power and be safer if I copied the 50% column to 10-40% instead of having the ECU control the timing? This is assuming I can dyno everything too.

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. I figured there should be 0 load w/ the clutch disengaged when making changes to the UTEC just as if we would on the road. Yes I'd plan on having more than just myself around while tunning.

2. Would it create more power and be safer if I copied the 50% column to 10-40% instead of having the ECU control the timing? This is assuming I can dyno everything too.

My car felt better after i tweaked the lower MLP in the ignition map. I didn't just use the 50% column though..

My map has higher numbers in the low/midrange rpms in the lower % columns, and as it goes up in the % columns from 20%->100% i start reducing the ign. timing in the spoolup area to 20deg. at it's lowest point up until 4k rpms IIRC- and then I start adding timing back in, by 4,500 i'm at 24, and at 5,000rpms i'm at 25deg. and finally peaks at 26 degrees from 5,500-redline. I can post up my ign. map tomorrow if you want, or just email it to you so you can see as explaining it sounds much more complicated than it is or looks:lol:

1. Negative: The dyno session did NOT go as planned; I'm not pleased w/ the outcome as I wasted not only my time but the time of two other people. We reset a code because we "all" thought that the ECU would be fine however it actually reset the whole ECU so we could not do any tunning. The ECU went into safe mode thus ran real rich ... 10+/1. Basically we got "0" real tunning things accomplished; the majority of the changes were a shot in the dark which is not meaningful and I still got knock driving back home. :(

2. Positive: I'm putting down 218 whp & 200 ft/lbs in 78F+ degrees @ 14.3psi+/-. These numbers are from a base Stage 2 map w/ no UTEC tunning. Thus when I drive on the roads w/ 50F+ degrees I'm sure I'll be putting more down. I did learn how to read some of the info presented from a dyno however I couldn't put anything to use today. Finally, I really appreciate the help of Jason and Erik; I know none of us were happy w/ the outcome but there's always a next time. Thanks guys. :)

1. If you tune A/F in 3rd on the road rather than 4th, doesn't the A/F get "leaner" once you hit 4th due to higher load which yields more boost? Thus if I wanted 11.2/1 in 4th I should shoot for 11/1 in 3rd and it should balance out?

2. If I'm trying to shoot for an optimal A/F of 11.2/1, can't I use the factory O2 sensor to tune since the factory O2 sensor should still be within it's safety margin which it "can" measure. If I log all the runs after I make adjustments to the "Fueling Variables" can't I keep making changes till the reading from the UTEC go from either rich and/or learn to the 11.2/1?

3. We all know that resetting the ECU causes a period of delay in power because the ECU is in "safe" mod. Can't we also create a "safe" mod map in the UTEC to on purposely be more aggressive so if you ever get into a "race" right after resetting the ECU you'll still have power. Once the ECU switches back to its "aggressive" map you can switch back to the standard map.

1. Originally I thought this was the case, however it is not. If you tune for 11.2:1 in 3rd, you will actually be slightly more rich in 4th.

2. The factory O2 doesn't have the ability to read that low. The Utec indicates 'rich' once the AFR passes around 12:1. I believe that to be its lowest useable output.

3. You could. This would basically require pulling more fuel. The problem is you wouldn't know when the ecu switched 'aggressive' and if you were running this newly created map, you'd go very lean.

1. How would it be more rich in 4th; I assume more boost = more air thus leaner A/F mixture?

2. You're right, I thought I saw 11.x somewhere but I was looking at something else. I did a run this morning in 3rd and the lowest was around 12.4. I guess that's why you'd need the WB O2 sensor to go that low ( rich ).

3. True, I just wish there was a factual equation on why/when the ECU switches.

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. How would it be more rich in 4th; I assume more boost = more air thus leaner A/F mixture?

2. You're right, I thought I saw 11.x somewhere but I was looking at something else. I did a run this morning in 3rd and the lowest was around 12.4. I guess that's why you'd need the WB O2 sensor to go that low ( rich ).

3. True, I just wish there was a factual equation on why/when the ECU switches.

1. You forget we have a raising rate fuel pressure regulator. When boost goes up so does pressure. However the injectors still open for the same length of time so more fuel comes out with each opening.

2. The factory ECU has algorithms for the O2 but the Utec doesn't so it just reads rich below ~12:1 afr. A wideband is necessary to tune correctly.

3. It's not that the factory ECU switches maps. It changes it's maps. The only maps that the ECU can switch to is low or high det. Which is why if you reset your ECU you don't want to do any tuning until the car has learned and adjusted.

I suspect the reason why it's more rich in 4th versus lower gears is more a function of how long it takes for the fuel to get into the engine. Starting in 1st gear, each subsequent gear should indicate more rich than the last. 1st is much shorter, the fuel can't get in as quickly, thus it will indicate a leaner mixture than 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. The engine will accelerate slower the faster you go and will enable more fuel to enter the chambers.

Boost will lean it out also, but there's an interesting side effect to that as well. It is harder to reach peak boost in shorter gears. 1st and 2nd in most cases will not peak as high as 3rd, 4th, etc. There's also a rising rate fpr, so the fuel tends to remain balanced to some degree. While 4th has a tendancy to run higher boost, it will also have enough fuel. Lower boost will not require as much fuel.

It's all dependant on the tuning, but usually this is the case and if you tune in 3rd or 4th the rest of the gears are pretty safe.

I see I've echo'd what mbiker97 posted the same time I did :p

1. "Rising Rate" Fuel Regulator means that at higher rpms the injectors are open the same amount however due to the increased pressure, more fuel is "pushed" out? Is there a "Constant Rate" Fuel Regulator which would mean at higher rpms it gets leaner because the injectors close and open rather than stay open?

2. Yeah, I'll need a WB 02 sensor for even street tunning. Humm, I should shoot for 11.5 in 3rd and maybe in reality be 11.2 once in 4th. I wish I had a dyno at home to play w/.

3. Is there a way to force the ECU to use it's aggressive map after a ECU reset instead of waiting a long time before you can tune again?

1. You could get a constant rate FPR, I think they about $300 though. They is someone around here that runs 100psi but I don't know his setup exactly since I think he's a jagoff (talks to much poop).

2. Luckily I have a Horiba (sp?) dyno test cell quality wideband available to me. I don't need it anymore though thanks to the ECUtek.

3. They only way to force the ECU to go aggressive quickly is get a reflash. I have my multiplier set at 16 (instead of the stock 8) for learning. You can also change the amount of miles reguired for the ECU to relearn.

Originally posted by chuglobal
3. Is there a way to force the ECU to use it's aggressive map after a ECU reset instead of waiting a long time before you can tune again?

Do a search for Shiv's quick ECU teach trick, or something along those lines.

Basically you keep the car at 2500 rpm's for 5 seconds while maintaining 2-5 psi boost.

I'm finding it even helps to advance the timing multiplier without resetting the ECU (if you've had knock).

I have found no correlation between the Shiv reset and the ecu switching back to it's aggressive map. The only way I've found to tell what mode the ecu is in is by using a wideband at WOT. The advance multipler (montiored by deltadash) jumps to 16 rapidly using the Shiv reset, however the ecu will still run super rich until its happy.

Out of curiosity, is this fact that you can adjust the mi needed for the ecu to go aggressive using ecutek?

Originally posted by Si2WRX
Out of curiosity, is this fact that you can adjust the mi needed for the ecu to go aggressive using ecutek?

Yes, it's fact. There is so much inbedded in the factory ECU it's rediculous. I just wish I had a dyno too so I could play with it more (ECUteck).

Can you comment on what the unflashed oem mileage is?

1. Where can you change the "multiplier?" What exactly is the multipler? I'm assuming the multiplier is "not" the samething as the mileage in which it takes the ECU to "relearn."

2. According to Shiv's trick, holding at 2500 rpms w/ 2-5psi, how many cycles do you need to do this?

3. Does the ECU really "lose" all of the learned settings when I reset the ECU? If the ECU has two maps, safe and aggressive, then we only have to worry about a total of two different maps.

4. What is the default mileage for a factory ECU to relearn?

By default, when you reset the ECU, the multiplier is set at 8. As you drive, it will go to 12 then 16 if the ECU likes what it's seeing. This impacts its partial throttle learned timing correction. It's not the same thing as the mileage thing.

Using DeltaDash, I've found the easiest way to do it is crusing at low speed in fifth and giving the car moderate throttle trying to accelerate from 2200rpm keeping boost around 4psi. This tends to raise the multiplier quickly.

So what is the "multiplier?"

The ECU reset totally resets all the learned parameters every time. That's why it's a reset.;) :D From the factory it is ~180 mi.

The multiplier is the ability of the ECU to learn. With a higher number the ECU learns more aggressively i.e. more timing.

So "multiplier" is the rate at which the ECU learns? Why do people just not change the ECU to learn as fast as possible? Do you have to have the ECUtek to change the multipier?

Originally posted by chuglobal
So "multiplier" is the rate at which the ECU learns? Why do people just not change the ECU to learn as fast as possible? Do you have to have the ECUtek to change the multipier?

Yes ECUteck, or maybe Cobb, is the only way to change it that I know of.

1. Interesting ... I was just reading Vishnu's theory on speed up the ECU learning process.

A. Warm up the car "then" reset the ECU.
B. Hold rpm between 2500-4000 / boost betwen 2-5psi for 5-10 second.

2. Why was it called the "multiplier" rate? I'm just trying to find out why things are called what so I can explain to people if necessary in the future.

Excellent reading: http://www.ecutek.com/tuning/ignition/

The Coarse Ignition Learning section details the multiplier.

You could reflash the ecu to a 16 multiplier by default, however this will not speed up when it switches to it's aggressive map. It will only impact the ecu's ignition learning.

Any of this have any impact on UTEC tuning:confused:

The multiplier is the speed as which the ECU "learns." Then if you try the "Vishnu Reset," it would only affect the rate at which the ECU learns but not to actually fool the ECU into switching to its more aggressive map sooner? So the car would still run "rich?" So this whole theory is another "catch 22" because the car will not run any faster sooner?

From the EcuTeK site:
The actual ignition timing used is the is a value from the base ignition map, plus a proportion of the ignition correction map (determined by the advance multiplier), plus a fine knock learning value from the above table.
So the advance multiplier is not the speed at which the ECU learns. It determines the amount of ignition correction advance that will be applied to the base ignition map. The higher the advance multiplier is, the more advance you will have. The reason for using the Vishnu Reset is because the ECU starts at a multiplier of "8" after a reset and takes it's time to reach a maximum of "16".. ie. if it ever gets there. The Vishnu Reset basically fools the ECU into jumping to it's maximum advance multiplier of "16".

There are 2 ignition correction maps besides the base ignition map. A high octane ignition map and a low octane ignition map. If you are running good gas along with the absence of knock, the ECU will happily advance your ignition using "a proportion of the ignition correction map (determined by the advance multiplier), plus a fine knock learning value". The fine knock learning value comes from a table which the ECU uses to store info regarding where knock as occurred in the past and uses this table to decrease your ignition timing where necessary.

Chuglobal, after doing the Vishnu Reset, your car should be in it's most aggressive mode.

I'm simplifying things a lot here. It's no wonder they patented this. I've never seen such an active ignition before...

Cheers!

1. So there a basically 3 main maps stored in the ECU: base, aggressive, and reserved. With a normal ECU reset, the ECU switches to the original base map w/ a multiplier of 8. The multiplier is used to take a "porportion" of the aggressive or reserved map and add it to the base map to give it an overall more aggressive calculation. The "Vishnu Reset" actually fools the ECU and tries to set the multiplier to 16 or as close as possible so the ECU will take a "larger" proportion of the aggressive map sooner. The ECU also inlcudes a table where past knock has occurred and applies less timing in those certain areas. Am I correct now?

2. Does the "aggressive" map include more timing and less fuel or just more timing?

3. How many cycles should I do of the 2500-4000rpm @ 2-5psi for 5-10 sec runs to finalize the "Vishnu Reset?"

1. You're almost correct on this. The "formula" is:
Base ignition map + proportion of the agressive map using the advance multiplier + reserved map. What you are refering to as the reserved map is actually the knock table.

2. The "aggressive" map = timing only. There are 2 separate maps for fuel; Lo Det Fuel Map and Hi Det Fuel Map. The engine runs on the Lo Det Fuel Map by default and when it detects excessive detonation, switches to the Hi Det Fuel Map.

3. One should be enough.

Some notes:
Base = Main Ignition Map
Aggressive = Ignition Correction Map
Reserved = Learned Ignition Correction Map

Thanks ... I theory was "close." ;) Also after holding the revs at the certain rpm for the "Vishnu Reset," do I go WOT till redline or do I let it go back to idle then turn off the car then restart the car and drive normally. Does any of it matter?

I suspect it starts on the hi-det map by default. The WRX clearly runs pig rich after a reset. As it's run, it switches maps to the low-det (slightly leaner) map.

No, it starts off with the low-det map. :)

IMHO, the stock low-det map is pig rich already. When it switches to the hi-det map, it basically drowns the engine. :eek:

chuglobal, after the Vishnu Reset, just drive normally.

1. Is there a way to make the ECU run leaner "quicker?" I know the majority of my knocks were due to too much fuel because I ran a test and the only variable was the way extra fuel which caused knock. Is the "Vishnu Reset" is only good for timing then how does fuel correlate?

2. My "normal" driving is redlining when I have a chance, it's too much fun. Should I just drive "normally" then w/out having shut off the car? I'm going to be doing to "Vishnu Reset" tonight. I have the day off work tomorrow. :D

1. There is no way to make the ECU run leaner "quicker". If you are knocking because of excess fuel, I suggest that you take your car to a tuner and have it tuned. A EcuTeK reflash goes great with a UTEC! :D

2. Yes, just drive normally after performing the Vishnu Reset. Don't hit the rev limiter... :banana:

Cheers!

1. I also heard the EcuTek works well w/ the UTEC. I have a theory base on my "normal" driving expereinces; everytime I reset the ECU, thus richer mixture, I get "more" knock till after 150miles which is when the ECU leans out the A/F. Also if I do the EcuTek reflash, will I not need to retune the UTEC again?

2. Too late, I already did some quick runs tonight. I have 2 sets of nice hills near my place. I did 5+ runs at 2500-3000 rpm @ 3-5psi for 5+ secs each in 4th gear. It's so nice to do some road tuning and know I'm not breaking any laws. I'm driving home a few minutes later and took 1st gear to redline twice ... humm I wonder if it'll change the "Vishnu Reset" process any.

1. I really hate getting bad gas. I figured a gas station would have a new batch of gas more than once a week; I've now gotten 2 tanks of bad gas from BP on Johnson Ferry near Lower Roswell w/in the last week. Now I have to burn through this tank then go to QT where "so far" I've been successful w/ them.

2. I just added the NOS Octane Booster from Autozone. It really killed me last night when I went "street racing" and I've never seen that many knocks since I had the UTEC, I got knock in every 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Does anyone know how long the octane "booster" takes before it dilutes into the gas? I read some of the other bottles and hey say usually near an empty tank but isn't that ironic since if I had an empty tank then I just get more fuel and hopefully solve the bad gas problem? I ran the car hard after adding it and it still knocks like crazy when WOT? :(

Man, you must have a real problem with gas in your area... :eek:

Don't know what to say... except try some gas stations farther away? :confused:

1. It was definitely a bad tank of gas from BP Oil. I'm very disappointed that it caused me this magnitude of problems. The knocks are definitely decreasing now. I had to drive around for like 5+ hrs to burn off the gas yesterday ... I never circled 285 till yesterday.

2. The knocks now are because of overboosting situations ... what's weird because the ECU seems "more" sensitive to the UTEC control of the FBC. I did "NOT" touch the boost settings and now I'm suddenly getting 18psi+ which I use to only get 16.5psi? I have a feeling by resetting the ECU many times recently caused it to learn "something" which I can't figure out. I got a bunch of knocks this morning but the majority was due to the overboosting situation.

3. Also I was looking over the knock log and noticed that the Injector Duty hit 100% at some points. I don't remember it being so high, I remembered low 90s% sometimes but 99-100% was weird? Why is this happening?

When you reset your ECU the fuel trims went to 0. After driving a couple days the ECU will learn new fuel trims (hopefully less fuel) and you should be fine.

1. Honestly, I never looked at a log after a fresh ECU reset. I just happened to notice the Injector Dute Cycle at some really high number at or near 100% when glancing at the knock log.

2. Why would the the FBC start acting weird and causing overboosting? "Nothing" was touched in the UTEC boost variable, it just started to climb to 18psi+ ... yes it was real cold this morning ... low 40s ... but that was a little extreme. I saw my analog boost gauge go past 18+psi when it usually use to only go to 16psi?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. Honestly, I never looked at a log after a fresh ECU reset. I just happened to notice the Injector Dute Cycle at some really high number at or near 100% when glancing at the knock log.

2. Why would the the FBC start acting weird and causing overboosting? "Nothing" was touched in the UTEC boost variable, it just started to climb to 18psi+ ... yes it was real cold this morning ... low 40s ... but that was a little extreme. I saw my analog boost gauge go past 18+psi when it usually use to only go to 16psi?

Perhaps just the weather, I had to lower my open loop boost settings in my map by over 15 across the board above 4,500rpms this past week it has gotten so cold here. Now i just made two identical maps one with cold weather boost setting and one with normal weather boost settings

So if you were running say "85" in the boost above 4500 rpm, now you're running "70" in those ranges? it should be in the 60s by the time I get off work so I do some WOT and see what the boost changes to, I assume the low 40s were that optimal for the UTEC and how it was orignally tunned for mid 50s.

Originally posted by chuglobal
So if you were running say "85" in the boost above 4500 rpm, now you're running "70" in those ranges? it should be in the 60s by the time I get off work so I do some WOT and see what the boost changes to, I assume the low 40s were that optimal for the UTEC and how it was orignally tunned for mid 50s.

Exactly, I also have my ABC closed and just use the boost map for boost tuning so maybe my values higher than most peoples. Once i saw the boost getting up to 18-19psi in 4th and 5th gears i just made another map with the lower boost values..

1. I took me 1/2 of the new tank to almost completely get rid of the "bad" gas from BP Oil. I don't know the exact timing however I started to get 0 knocks, which is normal, around 1/2 a tank of gas. I still can't believe what happened. :(

2. I think the bad gas + extreme change into cold weather caused my knocks. I was hitting 18psi+ which is NOT a good thing. I turned the ABC 1/4 turn in and things seem to be at 16.5-17psi in the low 50s which is fine w/ me.

3. I also noticed today the Injector Duty Cycles are going back to 80s-90s once again, I hit 100 miles today since my ECU reset two night ago so I'm assuming the ECU is changing the maps to be less rich.

4. I also really think that my previous knocks on the base Stage 2 map was caused mainly due to the rich A/F variables. I did pull timing which now going back and thinking, I should have tunned for correct A/F then change timing either up or down ... up is what is preferred. :D

4. Generally the tuning order is boost -> fuel -> timing. So now your getting a hang of things. I'm glad your IDC's went down. That could have definately been causing some knock.

1. Why didn't some mention to me earlier that the order for tuning was boost > A/F > timing? I was gathering my conclusion on what I have read and seen.

2. I wish I had a dyno or something to truely measure everything w/out the worry of cops doing 128mph runs in 4th. I really want to test my knock theory on the base Stage 2 map is caused more by rich A/F then too advanced timing.

Originally posted by chuglobal
I just added the NOS Octane Booster from Autozone. It really killed me last night when I went "street racing" and I've never seen that many knocks since I had the UTEC, I got knock in every 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Does anyone know how long the octane "booster" takes before it dilutes into the gas? I read some of the other bottles and hey say usually near an empty tank but isn't that ironic since if I had an empty tank then I just get more fuel and hopefully solve the bad gas problem? I ran the car hard after adding it and it still knocks like crazy when WOT? :(

1) That NOS Octane Booster from Autozone adds POINT 7. Which is pretty crappy for the 10.99 that it costs. That basically changes your 91 octane (or whatever) to 91.7. Even that is probably stretching it because it is a generic figure that is supposed to cover every size of gas tank. Next time, add a gallon of Toulene. You can find it at Sherman Williams. Ask for the contractor discount and they sell it to you 5 gallons for 27.00. Toulene is 114 octane and will up your tank ~ 1.5 for each gallon in a Subaru. Basically you can dump in two gallons of toulene for a bottle of that NOS stuff. That would make 91 octane gas ~ 94 (93.9).

Hope that helps,

Rob

1. I never had a serious problem w/ a "bad" tank of gas until this past weekend. I was in a panic and thus the reason why I did not know the OTC Octane Booster suck. If I knew I would have tried another avenue.

2. What exactly is "Toulene?" Is it "race" gas being it's 114 Octane or just some chemical additive? Is it bad for the engine to add Toulene? My next question is why Sherman Williams carries "race" gas? Since the Subaru carries a 15.9 gallons capacity, 114 Octane would change the Octane on average 1.5+ increase for each gallon of 114 added?

Toluene is pure 114 oct and is a main ingredient in gasoline. It is also a paint thinner :D So yes, Sherwin Williams carries it and you can run it in your gas tank.

If you put in one gallon of Toluene in with a tank full of gas, you'll get an octane rating of somewhere around 95.

So why wouldn't people just fill up w/ 93 Octane at 11 gallons for $15 then go get 4 gallons on Toulene and run on average 101 Octane for <$35 instead of just buying "race" gas would is like $70+?

You do not want to use more than 20% Toluene per tank. Toluene + regular petrol (gas) is not the same as race gas. Race gas is blended with many other things that produces not only high octane but a balenced fuel.

Read http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

Lets take 8 gallons of 92 octane and add 2 gallons of Toluene to it. The final octane rating is: 96.4

This is how you calculate it.

(8 * 92) + (2 * 114) / 10 = 96.4 octane

Cheers

MTG

I decided yesterday to test out my theory that the base Stage 2 map knocks are caused more from too much fuel than too much timing. I set the fuel to "0" instead of the positive numbers in some places as shown by my A/F dyno run. I had changed all the areas where I pulled timing to the defult numbers of the base Stage 2 which is more aggressive by 1-3 degrees in the 4250-5750 rpm range @ 70%-100% load. I usually tune in the 50s degree so I'll have to wait until it gets warmer outside since it's 40s right now around 8am. I have a feeling I'll still get knock due to too much timing but I should be pulling "less" timing than I use to which means my theory is correct. I'll post the update, I just had a urge to change something to my UTEC. ;)

You don't want to set your fuel to 0 since this will revert to ECU control...

Cheers!

The ECU control the fuel anyways and the amounts asjusted only increase or decreases what the ECU normally tells the engine to do. The base Stage 2 map runs real "rich." I did some preliminary test runs and so far things seemed to be going as planned. I stilled pulled timing in some spots but only 1 degree when I pulled 1-3 degree in the same areas before; I have pulled 1 degree of timing so far in 4x different rpm ranges @ 70% to 100% load which is "MUCH" better than before. I'm excited because I think I may have stumbled onto a theory and maybe this'll help someone who's trying to tune in the future.

I found fuel tuning made little difference in knock suppression - even drowning it in fuel. In my experience with my car, timing was always the issue - and for some reason my car ALWAYS wanted to run very aggressive timing under boost (confirmed through lots of logging). I pulled 2-3 degrees in the most knock prone areas and it seemed to help a lot. When the temperature dropped I added another point of fuel for my winter map.

All academic now that I sold the UTEC though :lol:

1. What does "audible" knock sound like? It's a curiosity question since everytime a knock occurs and the CEL flashes, I hear a "psssssh" sound, like a faint explosion but "held" back. It's not a hard, harsh, or serious sound; it's just something I've noticed. I can feel it because the timing is automatically pulled.

2. Does copying the 50% load column from 5000-7000rpm to the 0% load column from 5000-7000 in the timing section prevent shift knocks? Would it be better to copy from 4000rpm or is 5000rpm sufficient?

Chuglobal,

Since you are stage 2, you really don't want to mess with the 0% col. You can copy and extrapolate the timing from 60% down to 10%, but you don't want to play with 0%. Remember, the UTEC uses the 0% load col for timing and fuel everywhere under 60% TPS. 60% TPS is also about where your car switches from CL to OL fueling, which is why TXS uses that value for the changeover.

If you're getting shift knock, it's likely caused by rough shifting. Try to smooth it out and see if that takes care of it.

Audible knock, by the way, sounds kind of like BBs or small ball bearings swirling around in a can.

Also, it's possible that your det has gone down because your ambient temps have gone down. Turbo cars love cold weather. It's also pretty questionable to tune fuel without a WbO2.

Digitalekniq,

You really can't go by what the ECU timing says under load when you're running with the UTEC. What you see as "Very agressive" timing is actually the ECU noting that the car isn't knocking at the timing it's sending, so it's trying to up the timing to the knock threshold. Of course, since the UTEC is actually sending the timing, the ECU just thinks that it can keep going higher and higher, and it tries to.

Like you said, though, it doesn't matter for you anymore...

-Sean

I've heard that sound as well chu. I'm not sure if it's acutal det or just a side effect of the car pulling massive amounts of timing very quickly. By most accounts det sounds like BBs in a can and can be very difficult to hear on these cars.

Many users including myself have had good results using lower timing values in the 0% column from about 4k rpm up to reduce shift knock. The theory is when you left off the gas in high rpm to shift and the Utec switches timing control back to the ECU once it sees <60% TPS it knocks because the ECU is trying to run A LOT of timing advance. So running timing similar to what's in your 100% column for example, should reduce shift knock. The other school of thought is that it's merely noise the knock sensor is picking up.

Turbo cars like the cooler weather, but usually knock events increase due to poor gas, boost spikes, or just too much timing advance for this nice, cool, dense air.

Also the stock ECU is a GREAT tool for tuning timing everywhere less than 5500rpm. Even though the Utec is in control of timing, monitoring the ECU's learned timing 'curve' can be very helpful in seeing if your Utec tune is too aggressive. If the ECU is unhappy, you'll notice valley's and plateau's in the logs that show areas your tune can be improved. Generally a happy ECU should continually ramp up timing advance as rpm increases AFTER the boost onslaught (where there's a valley). After 5500rpm it doesn't listen and learn knock correction anymore.

Si2 -

I wasn't saying that the ECU col wasn't a useful tool, I was saying that you can't take its actual values seriously. Just because it shows +30 doesn't mean you can acutally run +30 there. It does mean that you may be able to run more than you are at that point.

The problem with specifying timing in the 0% col is that you're stuck at that timing, no matter the load, when you're under 60% TPS. It takes away the ECUs ability to microadjust timing at low loads for efficiency and reliability. I'm not saying that it might not help for certain circumstances. I would just try mapping timing down to the 10% col first, before mapping to 0%.

I do know this - I can MAKE my car show shift-knock by shifting badly, but it never detects knock during a shift when I shift in my usual fashion, even though that "normal" shifting is fast by most measures.

Basically, unless Chu has put a WbO2 on the car and mapped fuel (possible, I didn't re-read the whole thread), it's really hard to accurately tune fuel. Most people increase fuel somewhat during winter months, to allow for the denser air and worse gas.

-Sean

Thanks for the clearification. I agree with pretty much everything you just said. :)

The problem with specifying timing in the 0% col is that you're stuck at that timing, no matter the load, when you're under 60% TPS. It takes away the ECUs ability to microadjust timing at low loads for efficiency and reliability. I'm not saying that it might not help for certain circumstances. I would just try mapping timing down to the 10% col first, before mapping to 0%.

Yes and no... At least the way I drive, my car is NEVER <60% TPS at 5k rpm and almost always 4k rpm is >60% TPS also. You don't lose much by 'hard coding' the timing in these areas.

You have me there. I agree with you as well. Don't you just love harmony? My car is pretty much never sub 60% at 5K, but I have been known to do some cruising as well as some low- to mid-throttle transitions to and from the 4-5K range.

I guess you just try it and see how it goes. Every car IS different, and every driver is more so. It's certainly not likely to cause serious problems, just perhaps some lost low-throttle mid-range. And how much of an issue it that?

One thing to watch, Chu, is make sure you're not "accidentally" flatshifting. Basically, if you're still hard on the gas and you go to press the clutch "slowly" (less than instantly, actually), you're going to make a lot of transmission noise, which can lead to some knock showing up on the sensor. It's not too far from the tranny, after all. You CAN flatshift these cars smoothly, particularly from after the 1-2 shift, but it takes some practice, and if you miss it, you can cause youself some expense (gearsets and whole trannys aren't cheap...) and lots of time in the garage.

Good luck and have fun!

-Sean

1. I never heard "BBS," I also feel that it's the ECU just pulling ALOT of timing. I really did not want to copy of the values from the 40% column into the 0% as the reasons you guys stated above.

2. I've noticed in "tunned" Stage 2 maps than instead of having the ECU control the timing from the 10%>30% load points that the values from the 40% column is copied intot he 10-30% load points. My goal is to get rid of knock when shifting; if I got WOT at 3K rpm in 4th until it hits 6K rpm in 4th I get no knock. However if I redline 3rd and go into 4th, the transition phase seems to cause knock. It does NOT happen all the time but occasionally. It feels to me that the ECU is no responding quick enough. If I "gently" go on the WOT, the knock are also less prone.

Do your UTEC logs/the CEL show det in these situations, and if so, how much?

Well, the first thing that I'd try is extrapolating the X% col down to the 10% col in your timing map. If you are currently mapped down to 50%, and 50% = 21 at a given point, 40% should = 22, 30% = 23, 20% = 24, 10% = 25. Remember, the UTEC won't mess with timing until TPS is past 60%, so you'll still have whatever advantages exist with ECU controlled timing during cruising, with the advantages of a rock-solid curve when you hit it. This might help you out here. The reason is that even though the log does not show it, you DO have to pass through these load sites on your way up to the ones that you do have mapped. My maps have been well-tuned, and they control timing way down to 10%.

Second, practice shifting smoother. Like you say, you go gently into WOT and get no det ever, but when you hit it, you sometimes see some det events. If you are either on the gas while the clutch is disengaging, or on the gas before you've fully re-engaged it, this could be the result.

-Sean

1. The logs showed either 1, 2, or 10 knock during switching. Which column would you use to copy down to the 10-30% load columns ... 40 or 50?

2. Yeah I agree the UTEC doesn't seem to like "aggressive" shifting. I need to my "smoothness" anyways. I wish there was a way for the UTEC and ECU to work together faster.

3. Can "bad" gas which is more prone to explosion spool up the turbo quicker?

It's not the UTEC that doesn't like overagressive shifting - it's the car. One thing, though - by default, the UTEC is much more sensitive to knock than the ECU or a knocklink. You can dial that back if you need to, but I'd make sure it's not really knock first.

Just make sure that you are 100% off the gas before playing with the clutch. And be smooth with the clutch. It'll thank you in the long run.

As far as which col to use - use the lowest, and than extrapolate it.

Bad gas should not be able to "pre-spool" the turbo.

-Sean

I've noticed that w/ the recent cold weather my car knocks when shifting from 3rd to 4th at redline. I've been watching the analog boost guage and notice the needle goes past 16psi which mean during the shift from redline of 3rd into 4th, I'm boosting more than 16psi in that few seconds. I get knock at 5K+ rpm in 4th which is when the rpms sit during the 3rd redline shift into 4th. I could set the UTEC to not pull timing unless the knock is greater than 1 vs. 0 which is the default value. What really gets me is the fact that on Sat when it was <40s I set the timing to ECU for all the values and I got knock 1 time; technically if I got knock when the ECU was controlling all the timing then it's just the UTEC being more sensitive.

ECU controlled timing works, but it's not as aggressive. And after ~5500rpm it will run far too much advance. You should see knock here consistantly if you're trying this method.

Also the default knock count should be 1. I run my car with it set to 2.

As big_adventure stated... You do have a little room to 'tune' the knock thresholds. I feel as though the default thresholds are a little too sensitive.

Like Si2WRX said, you can tune the knock sensitivity. On my car, I run slightly reduced knock sensitivity and a 2-knock threshold.

About boost - when you are off the gas and on the clutch, the bypass valve (or BOV) should release and thus release pressure.

You are getting knock during your shift, while you are off the gas and on the clutch. And you are only getting knock while shifting hard, never when you make extra effort to shift slower and more smoothly.

You might want to pull a point of timing or two from the trouble areas to see if that corrects it. If it does - you're fixed. If not, then it really is just shift chatter showing up on the knock sensor and you might have to adjust the sensitivities to stop seeing it.

Good luck...

-Sean

1. I thought of something interesting this morning; I've been getting knock in "aggressive" driving situations and I've been pondering about the whole situation. I thinking about the fact of adjusting the A/F to the desired ratio then going back and add timing and how it all works out?
2. If for example at 4250 rpm I'm running 20 degrees of timing from 40-60% load and 19 degrees of timing from 70-100% load since I pulled a degree due to knock. If we add 2 degree of timing to the 40-60% load for the end value of 22 degrees of timing does the same ratio change so the 70-100% load would be 21 degrees of timing since there is still a total 1 degree difference between the 40-60% load and the 70-100% load range?
3. Also is pulling 2-3 degree of timing alot for any particular load point?

You should probably start with tuning fuel in any event.

There is not really a hard, set rule for setting the timing, but I run the same from 60-100 in each site, and don't have any problem with it at all. Of course, since my base value for the load is 20, rather than the default 18, I never go over 80% on 91 octane gas. As for why, I run 21psi on 98 octane. Use what works, don't set yourself a timing goal and try to make the rest of the tuning parameters work with it. Do fuel and then boost and timing. The more boost you run, the less timing, in all liklihood.

While I was dealing with the 04 ECU issues, I had to pull as much as 4 points from lots of sites from my dyno-tuned, 91-octane map to make it streetable.

What map are you using now. I'm sure it's in the text here, but I'm lazy and don't want to go back and read it.

-Sean

[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [21] [21] [21] [19] [19] [19] [19]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [22] [22] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [23] [23] [23] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]

1. I've copied my timing section from 4000-7000 rpm. If you look at the load points of 70%-100% you'll see that I pulled 2 degree at 4250 rpm and 1 degree from 4500-6000 rpm. I know the majority of my problems occur around to 4000-5500 rpm range. It "feels' basically like the ECU is not catching up to the change in the sudden change in rpm and load and does not know what timing value to use from the UTEC.
2. Originally I pulled 3 degrees at 70%-100% load @ 4250 rpm, 2 degrees at 70%-100% @ 4500 rpm and the rest were the same however added everything back after the "interesting" dyno run. I've also turned the ABC from 2 turns out to 1.5 turns out to compensate for the colder weather. I just know the suddent change causes "knock." I'm sure if I kept pulling timing in the 4000-5000+ range I'd soon or later get rid of all the knock but I'm trying to keep as much timing as possible.
3. I also noticed that if I spin tire around a corner in the cold or playing in the rain, the rpms climb faster than normal due to less traction. Thus when shifting gears it causes knock; is this also something people have seen?

Well, first off, I don't know that I'd have timing dip from 4K-4250 the way you do. Also remember, sometimes knock happens at a "safe" place in the map, after running to hard in an area that isn't so safe. You could knock at 4250 because of run conditions at 4000.

Last off - the ECU doesn't use timing from the UTEC. The UTEC overrides the ECUs timing in the appriate conditions. As far as either the ECU or the UTEC not "keeping up", they both have much more processing power than simple timing management takes. Also, lots of drivers with cars with much more power than yours (hence much faster changes) don't see this problem, so unless you have some hardware issues, it seems unlikely that that's the cause.

-Sean

You lost me? So what are you suggesting since I have knock around the 4000-5000+ rpm when driving/shifting aggressively?

I was responding to your suggestion that the ECU/UTEC couldn't keep up with the timing demands.

You should, first off, copy your 40% timing col down through 10-30. That's what TXS has recommended for shift knock, as well as many others. That's how I run, as well as many other tuned WRXs.

Second, you have a dip in timing from 4000-4250. I've never seen anyone set a map up that way. You could back 4000 down, or bump 4250 back up to equal, but I don't think that a dip there is necessarily a good idea.

That's it, for now. Start with that. I'd say that you could also use a good tuning with a WbO2 to make sure that you are fueling properly.

-Sean

[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [19] [19] [19] [19]
[-100] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[-100] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]

1. I've pulled 1 degree at 4K rpm and added back 1 degree at 4250 rpm.

2. I've also been thinking that higher heat and less fuel ( leaner ) mixture will help the turbo spool faster. This theory + the fact that "ALL" tunned Stage 2 maps, which I've seen online, have a "negative" value for the fuel values instead of the "positive" values which come w/ the base Stage 2 map. Would it be a good test to make all the positive values to "0" w/out using a WB O2 sensor?

A leaner mixture will benefit spool. So will an MBC or good EBC instead of the Utec for boost control.

You really need to get a WBO2 on that car and get the fuel map tweaked. Once you do it you won't need to do it again unless you change something major. All the headaches you have now will be a thing of the past.

True, a leaner mixture will benefit spool, but you don't have any idea what your mixture is now. My tuned stage 2 map did NOT have negative values for fuel, but had positive values everywhere. DON'T tune fuel without a wideband. You will NOT knock just because of too much fuel. You might leave power on the table, etc., but how much spool trouble are you having now?

Also true, a good MBC or EBC might spool better than your UTEC, but I wouldn't be so sure about that. With an MBC, you also have to deal with PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) problems and the potential damage that comes with that.

If you're serious, find a decent tuner to work with to nail that fuel curve first. Once that's done, you're good to go. If you can't find a tuner, you can find LM-1 WbO2 tools for about $300.

-Sean

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a coorelation somewhere where I'm not seeing.

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a correlation somewhere where I'm not seeing.

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a correlation somewhere where I'm not seeing.

No surprise where you're knocking: 4000-4500 is right in the low range of the torque peak, meaning the highest cylinder pressures.

How much boost are you running? You could try pulling a little boost out and seeing what happens.

-Sean

Aren't we "supposed" to hit peak torque at 4K rpm and slowly die off boost? Humm, maybe because it's cold I'm boosting higher than 16.5psi thus causing the knock?

What boost are you hitting?

You should always make sure you're not sacrificing fuel and timing to carry more boost than works for your setup.

-Sean

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [84] [84] [84] [84]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [84] [84] [83] [83]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [84] [84] [84] [84]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [84] [84] [84] [84]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [84] [84] [84] [84]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [83] [83] [82] [82]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [87] [87]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [89] [89] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [89] [89] [89] [89]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [89] [89] [89] [89]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [89] [89] [89] [89]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [89] [89] [89] [89]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [84] [84] [84] [84]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [80] [80] [80] [80]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [85] [85] [85] [85]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [85] [85] [85] [85]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [88] [88] [88] [88]

1. I agree which is why I've been thinking from another view. I've read and heard that you're right, you should never sacrifice boost for timing and fuel. I've also been wondering why my car seems to have "higher" values for the boost numbers in the UTEC; I remember setting it up at 55-60 degree for 16.5psi. However due to the cold weather I've been seeing 16.5-18psi +\- during those knock times between 3rd and 4th shifts or just transition states in general. I haven't had any recent logs however I remember seeing before in cold weather.
2. What I'm thinking is going WOT at 3K rpm in 4th until 5K+ rpm in 4th and trying to get boost to be no more than 17psi at any time in the cold ( 40 degrees ) weather which should equal 16-16.5psi in the normal ( 50-60 degrees ) weather and lower boost at temperature increase. I'll decrease the boost values until I hit my goals. Is this a good approach?
3. I've been looking at other maps on WRXHackers and notice that my boost values are all "higher" than any maps posted. That should have been a clue for me right away since we're all running the Stage 2.
4. Does boost tunning affect A/F or vice versa? IE: if I tune boost now and do A/F later, will tunning the A/F lower or increase boost? If I tune A/F first then tune boost, will it adjust the A/F since both causes will affect the "boost=air?
5. The 2 maps above are the old boost vs. the new "test" boost which has lower values than the previous version which is correct. It's from 3500 rpm > 7000 rpm @ 70-100% load.
6. I'll upload the boost map once I get to work since my laptop is at work and add back the timing and see what happens from there.

Well, first off, you should convert to closed-loop boost right away. Read the UTEC manual for details, but in OLB you can expect boost to fluctuate widely in various temps and altitudes.

Your idea for decreasing your boost settings to match your needs is pretty much right on.

No, boost won't affect AFRs. Remember, open-loop fueling is done based on two axis of a table: revs and load, and load is MAF voltage. MAF voltage is higher when the rate of air passing past the MAF sensor is higher, so the car is adding fuel to directly match the amount of air passing by.

Good luck. I'll be away for the next couple of days, so I won't check the forums until I'm back.

-Sean

Some people have mentioned to me that I should try CL vs. OL boost control. How does CL help during the weather changes and how does it exactly work? Also the manual states to change the value from 1 to 0 to go from OL to CL then start tunning w/ a value of 200.

Originally posted by chuglobal
Some people have mentioned to me that I should try CL vs. OL boost control. How does CL help during the weather changes and how does it exactly work? Also the manual states to change the value from 1 to 0 to go from OL to CL then start tunning w/ a value of 200.

From the special constants menu, you'll need to change the default of =1 to =0 for CLB. Once in CLB, just ctrl/f a value of 200 all the way from the 50 column to 100. From there, just play with the number raising them as high as needed (up to a value of 500) until you're boosting where you need to be.

As far as the benefit of going from OLB to CLB, I believe it's stated in the manual. I haven't had any problem so far in CLB and the temp has fluctuated from 30f- to 60f recently.

1. I did a few quick little runs coming back from lunch. It's 26-34 degrees outside w/ rain. I didn't get knock from 1st > 2nd or 2nd > 3rd however I did get it going from 3rd > 4th at 5K rpm according to the tach. Thus I must have been running way too much boost exaggerate by the cold weather and thus the reason for the recent knocks between shifts. I'm going to change the value at 5K rpm from 85 to 83 and see if that solves the knocks.
2. I went through the 3.1 manual and did not see any details on OLB vs. CLB. Which page did you see the info? What boost ( psi ) are you getting at the default value of 200? What values did you end up w/?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. I did a few quick little runs coming back from lunch. It's 26-34 degrees outside w/ rain. I didn't get knock from 1st > 2nd or 2nd > 3rd however I did get it going from 3rd > 4th at 5K rpm according to the tach. Thus I must have been running way too much boost exaggerate by the cold weather and thus the reason for the recent knocks between shifts. I'm going to change the value at 5K rpm from 85 to 83 and see if that solves the knocks.
2. I went through the 3.1 manual and did not see any details on OLB vs. CLB. Which page did you see the info? What boost ( psi ) are you getting at the default value of 200? What values did you end up w/?


Each set up is going to be different, i.e. which ever turbo you're using, how much you've got the ABC set screw backed out and even car to car. I'm running a value of 500 from 6250 to redline in in the 70-100% columns and only like 300 somewhere in the mid-range. It would really depend on if I backed the ABC in or out and then it would change. You just need to put the numbers in (ctrl/f will take like 2 seconds) and go from there.

Concerning your knocks between shifts, if you've already got the 10-50% column mapped for timing (other than ECU) try lowering those numbers where you see knock. You should be able to still boost normal.

So we can "mix" controlling the boost from ECU to CLB? Currently the base Stage use uses ECU control from 10-60% and then the UTEC takes over from 70-100% in OLB. Do I just change the UTEC to use CLB and change the values from the same 70-100% load points to 200 and go up from there? I didn't see anything specific regarding tunning in CLB in the manual.

The maps look the same on the OL vs CL, only the values are different. Just leave "ECU" on the 0% - 50/60% and put your new numbers in the rest of the columns from 500 to 9000rpms.

Are you running the stock turbo? If so could you post up your map just so I can have a general idea? So by using CLB your boost values are no longer being affected by temperature? Which parameters are used to adjust values for CLB?

I'm not running a stock turbo but I can post up my CL boost map for illustration if you want. I'm at work right now but could do it later when I get home.

1. Did you happen to remember what boost level ( psi ) you got when you used 200 as a starting point for CLB control from 500-9000rpm @ 70-100% load?
2. The manual states to increase the CLB by "small" increments, however since the values are 200-500+, wouldn't it be more efficient to adjust by 25-50 increments? I know ... not having a personal dyno does suck. ;)

I changed from OLB to CLB ... I started w/ a value of 200 as stated in the manual from 1500-9000 rpm @ 70-100% load. These were the following values / psi ...

200 = 10psi
300 = 12-13psi
400 = 15-16psi

Once I hit 400 I started to get knock at the 4000-5250 rpm range as expected. I've changed the values from 400 to 330 in the 4000-5250 rpm range. It was weird; I had 330 for 4000-4750 rpm and 350 for 5000-5250. When I first made the change earlier tonight I was knock free however later tonight I started to get knock again thus the reason I'm running 330 for 4000-5250 rpm. I'm running around 15.5-15.9 psi. I check tomorrow morning again driving to work.

I noticed that I should have a value of 400+ in CLB to obtain 16psi. However what bothers me is that I'm getting knock again between shifts. I did a good 3500rpm-6000rpm pull in 4th this morning on my drive to work and go knock at 5750-6000 rpm range; this knock is definitely due to timing since there was no shifting involved and boost was only at 13+ psi. I've been looking at the log and notice that at NO time am I overboosting since I'm not even making 16psi; I'm running at high 15s during the 400 value sections. Thus the only reason must be either too much timing or harsh shifting. Why was I fine last night and as the night progressed and this morning I'm getting knock again? Can anyone shed some light?

Was it cooler this morning?

Originally posted by chuglobal
I noticed that I should have a value of 400+ in CLB to obtain 16psi. However what bothers me is that I'm getting knock again between shifts. I did a good 3500rpm-6000rpm pull in 4th this morning on my drive to work and go knock at 5750-6000 rpm range; this knock is definitely due to timing since there was no shifting involved and boost was only at 13+ psi. I've been looking at the log and notice that at NO time am I overboosting since I'm not even making 16psi; I'm running at high 15s during the 400 value sections. Thus the only reason must be either too much timing or harsh shifting. Why was I fine last night and as the night progressed and this morning I'm getting knock again? Can anyone shed some light?


Your boost map is different now so you will also need to change the timing map. From your above post, looks like your timing is on the aggressive side:

[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [19] [19] [19] [19]
[-100] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[-100] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]


Of course, your boost is on the low side so I guess you can get away with that much timing. I had to take my timing down in the 10-40 columns to 19/20 in the 4k-redline range due to knock between shifts. Once I did that, it was fine with no performance loss. Give that approach a try.

[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[-100] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[-100] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]

1. It was low 30s last night and high 30s this morning so technically it was a little "warmer" this morning than last night. CLB should "not" be affected by temperature so it "shouldn't" matter.

2. If you suggesting changed the timing values from 4000-7000 rpm @ 10-14% load to 19 / 20, then that's alot of timing which will be pulled since the default is 20 > 25? So where should I try 19 and where should I try 20?

3. No one said that CLB will affect timing?

4. What is calculating the CLB variables?

5. Do you think it should be ok to use 400 for 4000-7000 rpm since I know the 400 values provides 15.3-15.9 psi? Technically I'm guessing it should be 400+ to obtain 16.5 psi? Every knock that has occurred was NOT due to overboosting since all the boost values where not even close to 16.5psi+? Also I have the ABC at 1.5 turns out.

Originally posted by chuglobal
3. No one said that CLB will affect timing?


CLB isn't affecting timing, the timing hasn't changed. Your boost map changed, hence the reason you're getting knock in places where you didn't previously. This is like an altogether new map now.



Originally posted by chuglobal

2. If you suggesting changed the timing values from 4000-7000 rpm @ 10-14% load to 19 / 20, then that's alot of timing which will be pulled since the default is 20 > 25? So where should I try 19 and where should I try 20?


In the 10%-40% columns. When you're shifting the rpms are coming down and out of throttle and boost. When you're getting back on the throttle, you're starting out in the lower load sites. That's what was causing my knock occurences. Give it a shot and see.


Originally posted by chuglobal

4. What is calculating the CLB variables?

Don't know exactly. Seems to work well. Maybe you can make a new thread to shed light on this one.


Originally posted by chuglobal
1. It was low 30s last night and high 30s this morning so technically it was a little "warmer" this morning than last night. CLB should "not" be affected by temperature so it "shouldn't" matter.


I personally wouldn't think that 33f vs 39f would make a ton of difference. Of course, you may be running on the ragged edge of timing/fuel aggressiveness and maybe it would.

Is CLB really have the car engage back at a "lower" rpm site? I didn't pay too much attention when I was in OLB. I figured boost will only change boost and not create a "new" map. I guess I can try 20 instead of 20-25 values in the timing section from 4000-7000 rpm at 10-40% load.

Originally posted by chuglobal
Is CLB really have the car engage back at a "lower" rpm site? I didn't pay too much attention when I was in OLB. I figured boost will only change boost and not create a "new" map. I guess I can try 20 instead of 20-25 values in the timing section from 4000-7000 rpm at 10-40% load.

Let us know how it works out.

[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]

I just changed yet again the timing and boost maps. I figure I should adjust the boost to the target levels first which si 16.5psi max and then hit timing from there. I think I'm trying to do two things at once which is messing my theories up. I left timing alone in the 70-100% load points and adjusted the 10-40% load points. Once I get 16.5psi I'll adjust the timing. I'm assuminig I should hit 16.5psi at 4K rpm and hold till 6K rpm or as long as possible?

Originally posted by chuglobal
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]


You may want to ramp those values up rather than all 400's. Also, should those 0's be ECU?

1. Actually the 0's = ECU.

2. Thinking about it more I've also noticed that "100" value increase in CLB equals around "2" psi increase. Thus if you do a rough ratio ... "25" unit increase would equal a .5+\- psi increase so if I'm maxing at 15.9 ( 99% of the time ) and I want 16.5psi I should use 425 instead of 400. I'll need to get a baseline and work from there. I'll try this new theory on my way home tonight.

1. My theory was close to correct; 425 gave me between 16.1-16.4 psi w/ a max of 16.8-17 psi which happened only once in two areas. I can see where boost needs to be increase 3000 rpm and before & 5000 rpm and after. Thus my values are now 430 in those areas. I actually also decrease the boost values in the two areas where it hit 16.8-17 psi to 420. I also realize that CLB allows much "finer" tunning of boost. It's been 30-40 degrees the whole time so I can't really tell if weather affects the boost values.

2. Since I'm working w/ boost, I have changed the UTEC timing control back to 100% ECU control so basically I have a very expensive EBC. ;) Once I get the boost levels I want, I'll mess w/ the timing again. As long as I don't over boost, I should NOT see any knock. I'm hitting 16-16.5 psi by 3500rpm and holding till 5000 rpm. I have changed some of the boost values up and down so I'll see what it gives me tomorrow. What is a safe average for boost level at the rpms? Should max boost be from 3500-6500 rpm?

3000 +2.1 3.0 21 00 00 13.6 +24.4 20.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.1
3030 +2.9 3.2 73 30 00 14.1 +18.0 31.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.3
3080 +4.3 3.4 102 40 00 rich +14.2 36.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.5
3124 +7.2 3.5 102 60 00 rich +12.0 44.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.5
3124 +10.0 3.5 102 70 00 rich +12.0 45.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.5
3214 +12.5 3.6 101 80 00 rich +11.9 47.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.6
3274 +14.5 3.6 101 80 00 rich +12.0 48.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.7
3316 +15.3 3.6 102 80 00 rich +11.4 48.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.7
3367 +15.7 3.6 101 80 00 rich +11.6 49.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.7
3387 +15.9 3.6 102 90 00 rich +11.4 51.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.6
3465 +16.1 3.7 101 90 00 rich +11.1 53.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.8
3519 +16.4 3.7 102 90 00 rich +11.1 55.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3542 +16.4 3.7 101 90 00 rich +10.8 57.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.7
3619 +16.4 3.8 101 90 00 rich +10.8 58.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3646 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich +11.1 59.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3687 +15.9 3.8 101 80 00 rich +11.6 60.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3749 +15.9 3.8 102 90 00 rich +11.7 61.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3805 +15.9 3.8 101 90 00 rich +12.4 61.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3831 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich +12.8 62.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3827 +16.6 3.8 101 90 00 rich +13.0 63.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.9
3898 +16.1 3.9 101 80 00 rich +13.5 64.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.9
3921 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich +13.8 65.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 4.0
3954 +15.3 3.9 101 80 00 rich +14.0 65.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.9
4040 +15.5 3.9 101 90 00 rich +14.4 67.0 ECU. +1.3 425.00 4.0
4050 +15.9 3.8 101 90 00 rich +14.5 67.0 ECU. +1.4 425.00 3.9
4115 +15.9 3.9 101 80 00 rich +14.1 68.0 ECU. +1.0 425.00 4.0
4105 +15.9 3.9 101 80 00 12.6 +14.1 70.0 ECU. +0.8 425.00 3.9
4166 +15.7 3.9 101 90 00 rich +14.1 70.0 ECU. +0.8 425.00 4.0
4187 +15.9 3.9 101 90 00 rich +12.8 70.0 ECU. +0.7 425.00 3.9
4235 +16.6 3.9 101 90 00 rich +12.3 72.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.0
4312 +16.8 3.9 100 90 00 rich +12.2 73.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.0
4345 +16.6 4.0 101 90 00 rich +12.1 74.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.0
4357 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich +11.8 76.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.0
4450 +15.7 4.0 101 80 00 rich +11.8 77.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.0
4420 +15.9 4.0 101 90 00 rich +11.7 78.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.0
4438 +15.9 4.0 101 90 00 rich +12.2 79.0 ECU. +0.1 400.00 4.0
4444 +16.4 4.0 101 90 00 rich +11.9 79.0 ECU. +0.1 400.00 4.0
4553 +16.4 4.0 101 90 00 rich +12.5 81.0 ECU. +0.1 400.00 4.1
4510 +16.1 4.0 101 90 00 rich +12.5 81.0 ECU. +0.5 400.00 4.1
4547 +17.0 4.0 101 90 00 rich +12.8 82.0 ECU. +0.3 400.00 4.1
4623 +16.6 4.0 101 90 00 rich +12.7 81.0 ECU. +0.2 400.00 4.0
4694 +16.4 4.0 100 80 00 rich +13.2 82.0 ECU. +0.2 400.00 4.1
4675 +16.4 4.1 101 80 00 rich +13.2 83.0 ECU. +0.2 400.00 4.1
4694 +15.7 4.1 102 90 00 rich +13.0 84.0 ECU. +0.1 400.00 4.1
4844 +15.7 4.1 101 80 00 rich +13.4 84.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4761 +16.4 4.1 101 90 00 rich +13.7 84.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.0
4816 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich +13.8 84.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4866 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich +14.3 85.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4880 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich +14.2 85.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4837 +15.5 4.1 101 80 00 rich +15.0 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4901 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich +15.4 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4873 +15.7 4.1 101 80 00 rich +15.4 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4982 +16.1 4.1 100 90 00 rich +16.4 87.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5005 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich +16.1 88.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4997 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich +17.7 88.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5073 +16.1 4.1 101 90 00 rich +17.7 89.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5144 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich +18.0 89.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5151 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +18.5 90.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5555 +15.9 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.2 91.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5184 +15.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich +18.3 90.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5241 +16.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.2 91.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5274 +15.9 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.4 92.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5324 +15.5 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.5 92.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5341 +16.1 4.2 100 80 00 rich +19.6 92.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5324 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.6 92.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5367 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich +17.8 92.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5455 +15.7 4.2 101 90 00 rich +18.1 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5482 +15.7 4.2 101 90 00 rich +18.4 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2

3177 +1.1 3.2 75 20 00 13.5 +18.9 29.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 3.3
3572 +3.5 3.5 101 40 00 rich +13.1 45.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.7
4089 +6.6 3.8 101 60 00 rich +14.2 66.0 ECU. +0.8 425.00 3.9
4597 +10.0 4.0 101 80 00 rich +12.0 81.0 ECU. +0.3 400.00 4.0
5184 +13.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich +19.0 90.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5698 +14.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich +21.7 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
6218 +14.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich +23.3 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.2
6816 +13.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich +27.7 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6600 +10.4 2.4 0 00 00 rich +10.5 11.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 1.7
6184 +4.5 2.1 0 00 00 16.8 +10.5 7.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.1
5707 -2.2 2.2 0 00 00 lean +12.6 11.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.0
4559 -5.5 3.7 47 00 00 24.5 +18.0 51.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.8
4219 -3.8 3.7 87 20 00 rich -6.2 60.0 ECU. +0.0 425.00 3.8
4498 +2.5 4.0 100 60 00 rich +12.0 79.0 ECU. +0.1 400.00 4.0
4675 +8.8 4.0 101 80 00 rich +12.9 83.0 ECU. +0.3 400.00 4.0
4880 +13.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich +14.2 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5073 +16.1 4.1 101 90 00 rich +17.9 87.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5249 +16.6 4.1 101 90 00 rich +19.5 89.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5464 +16.4 4.1 101 80 00 rich +20.7 91.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5659 +14.9 4.2 101 70 00 rich +21.6 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5910 +14.7 4.2 100 80 00 rich +21.6 94.0 ECU. +0.0 430.00 4.3
5995 +13.7 4.3 101 80 00 rich +22.8 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6218 +12.9 4.3 101 60 00 rich +23.3 95.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6349 +12.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich +25.8 93.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6666 +11.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich +26.6 93.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.2
6901 +12.1 4.3 101 70 00 rich +27.7 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6788 +12.1 4.3 33 00 00 rich +38.5 32.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.8
6435 +6.6 1.8 0 00 00 rich +10.4 9.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.0
6038 +1.1 2.2 0 00 00 lean +10.9 9.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.1
5621 -5.3 2.1 0 00 00 lean +11.5 ---.- ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.4
4748 -9.4 3.4 30 00 00 24.5 +19.3 38.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.5
4975 -5.9 3.9 71 10 00 rich +3.8 79.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.0
5027 +0.2 4.1 102 50 00 rich +15.9 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5042 +7.0 4.2 101 80 00 rich +17.8 90.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5208 +12.5 4.2 101 90 00 rich +18.8 90.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5265 +14.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.5 90.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5464 +15.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich +20.2 91.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5583 +15.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich +21.2 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5574 +14.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich +21.4 94.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5688 +14.3 4.2 101 70 00 rich +21.7 94.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.3
5787 +14.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich +22.0 94.0 ECU. +0.0 430.00 4.3
5910 +14.1 4.3 101 80 00 rich +22.4 95.0 ECU. +0.0 430.00 4.3
5889 +14.1 4.3 101 70 00 rich +22.5 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6038 +14.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich +22.8 95.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6138 +13.9 4.3 101 80 00 rich +23.1 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6289 +13.5 4.3 101 70 00 rich +23.3 95.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6289 +13.7 4.3 101 70 00 rich +25.4 95.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6435 +13.7 4.3 101 80 00 rich +25.4 95.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6523 +13.1 4.3 100 70 00 rich +26.2 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6485 +13.1 4.3 100 60 00 rich +26.6 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6693 +12.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich +26.9 93.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6693 +12.1 4.3 101 70 00 rich +27.6 94.0 ECU. +0.0 435.00 4.3
6680 +12.5 4.3 53 00 00 rich +29.3 32.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.3
6535 +7.8 1.6 0 00 00 rich +10.4 11.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.0
6049 +1.7 2.2 0 00 00 21.6 +10.7 11.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.1
5678 -4.3 2.1 0 00 00 lean +11.0 11.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 2.2
5216 -9.6 3.3 26 00 00 23.7 +18.8 31.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.5
4782 -6.5 3.8 74 10 00 rich +18.4 67.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 4.0
4816 -0.4 4.1 101 50 00 rich +14.3 85.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4810 +7.2 4.1 101 90 00 rich +14.6 88.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4952 +13.3 4.1 101 90 00 rich +15.1 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4982 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich +15.7 86.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
4967 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich +15.9 87.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5035 +15.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich +17.4 88.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5096 +15.3 4.1 101 80 00 rich +17.9 89.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5065 +15.1 4.2 101 90 00 rich +18.2 89.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.1
5089 +15.7 4.1 101 90 00 rich +18.5 90.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5175 +16.6 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.2 90.0 ECU. +0.0 400.00 4.2
5144 +15.9 4.2 100 90 00 rich +19.0 90.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5175 +16.1 4.1 100 80 00 rich +18.7 90.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5307 +15.7 4.2 100 80 00 rich +19.5 90.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5555 +15.5 4.2 100 90 00 rich +19.5 92.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5299 +16.4 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.6 91.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5324 +16.8 4.2 100 90 00 rich +19.5 92.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5341 +16.8 4.2 100 90 00 rich +19.6 91.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5446 +16.4 4.2 100 80 00 rich +19.6 92.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5455 +16.4 4.2 100 90 01 rich +19.6 92.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5437 +15.7 4.2 98 90 00 rich +18.0 93.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5402 +15.9 4.3 101 80 00 rich +18.4 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5437 +16.1 4.2 100 90 00 rich +18.5 93.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.3
5518 +15.5 4.2 100 80 00 rich +18.7 92.0 ECU. +0.0 410.00 4.2
5482 +15.9 4.2 100 90 00 rich +18.8 93.0 ECU. +0.0 430.00 4.2
5537 +15.3 4.3 100 80 00 rich +18.8 93.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5555 +15.1 4.2 98 80 00 rich +18.8 94.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2
5546 +14.9 4.2 98 80 00 rich +19.2 94.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.3
5592 +14.1 4.2 98 80 00 rich +19.0 94.0 ECU. +0.0 420.00 4.2

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [440] [440] [440] [440]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [440] [440] [440] [440]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [440] [440] [440] [440]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [440] [440] [440] [440]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [440] [440] [440] [440]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [440] [440] [440] [440]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [435] [435] [435] [435]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [430] [430] [430] [430]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [425] [425] [425] [425]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [425] [425] [425] [425]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [425] [425] [425] [425]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [420] [420] [420] [420]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [430] [430] [430] [430]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [435] [435] [435] [435]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [435] [435] [435] [435]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [435] [435] [435] [435]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [435] [435] [435] [435]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [435] [435] [435] [435]

1. The 4th gear roll from 3250-5250+ rpm produced a pretty consistent average of 15.9-16.6psi. The majority was around 15.9, 16.1, 16.4, and 16.4 respectively. I did hit 17psi once but that was it; my goal was to make sure no matter what, that I'd remain around 16.5psi or less in the worst extremes. I'm actually very pleased so far because I did all this in CLB in the 30s degree temperature range. I hope as temperature increase I'll be able to see the benefits of CLB.
2. The boost values listed above are for CLB from 1500-7000 rpm at 70-100% load. I'm pleased because I can see the same boost changes as the base Stage 2 map; starts high > dies down near when the turbo is at full boost, lowest during full boost, increase slightly, and finally increase till redline.
3. I did a rolling 1/4 mile which is 1st > 4th at 5500 rpm+ and shifted as if I were "racing" ... no knocks. I do have the ECU controlling timing; I was looking at the timing values can can see that the ECU is using the high "teens" vs. the UTEC which was low > mid 20s which is a huge difference in 4th gear. This probably explains the knocks that occurred during shifting and even just rolls. The ECU is trying to us 17-19 while the UTEC was trying to force 25.
4. l keep the timing to ECU control until I go to the dyno and adjust the A/F to 11.2 in 4th w/ a WB O2 sensor. I "know" that if I try to tune the timing now, it'll all be a waste since the A/F will greatly affect the advancements in timing which I'm trying to do. Now I just have a very expensive EBC. :D

Wow - looking at your clb map, you must have the abc near closed. Have you looked at what your wastegate duty cycle is? I found the following information helpful:


Also post a #3 datalog.. check that your wastegate duty cycles are in a reasonable range (0-133 in logs represents 0-100%). You don't want to see numbers that are "too high" or "too low" once your turbo is spooled... meaning that you can't expect the BCS to operate effectively near 0% (something like 1-20%) or near 100% (85-99%). You "tune" the range of the BCS with the ABC.

Actually I have it 1.5 turns from closed. Is that a problem because it sounds like it?

Originally posted by chuglobal
Actually I have it 1.5 turns from closed. Is that a problem because it sounds like it?

Only a problem if your wastegate duty cycle is at an extreme of the range. Do a quick 3rd or 4th gear WOT log using datalogger #3, and analyze using the method in the quote above.

Umm ... how come no on mentioned this "little" factory before? I just reved it in neutral and did a few quick 2nd gear pulls and I hit 133 wastegate cycle according to Log 3. I figured if it would do it in 2nd then it would definitely do it in 3rd. I lower all the values by 150 and turned the ABC to be 5 turns from closed; I'm not getting where near full boost but I can keep on turning the ABC out. I just thought that the ABC should be as close to closed as possible so boost is NOT affected by cold weather. How many turns are people turning it out to obtain 16.5psi w/ the wastegate cycle in a "normal" range; what is the "normal" range?

It should read 133 while you are trying to build boost at low rpm.

The area of interest is once you hit your target boost (e.g., after 3500 rpm).

So should it be at 80-100 instead of 133, what is the target range? Why is this even a concern? How many turns do you have your ABC out?

I have no data to back this up, and have enough experience with control systems to be dangerously inaccurate. :)

Generally speaking, well designed control systems do not operate at the extremes of the control range. The potential downside if you are operating at an extreme is that your boost control could have more noise/oscillations, take more time to hit target boost, and have difficulty responding to dynamic changes in inputs. Does this make a difference in real world driving? In theory...

My ABC is about two turns. I set it when I installed the UTEC over a year ago (stage 2.5), and haven't touched it since. I do all my tuning with the maps. Recently, I ran datalog 3 at WOT, and saw WG values between 66 and 83 from 3300 rpm to redline.

1. Well, I've basically subtracted "100" from the previous boost numbers which I posted w/ 5 turns out and obtained a BCS values of 70-90 from 3500-5500+ rpm in 4th obtaining 15.5 psi+/-. The original BCS values were 133 but I did obtain a consistent 16.1-16.6 psi. I did hit 16.4-16.6 psi twice however I think it was just a spike. I would like to keep the values in the UTEC in the CLB section because I'm now running safely the BCS at 70-90. I just wonder how far I'm going to have to turn the ABC out ... I just turned it from 5 to 7 turns out and hopefully I'll get 16-16.5psi. I've kept the same ratios in the boost values since in "theory" it should remain the same?

2. Isn't having the ABC close to closed as possible better since it's less affected by the temperature change? Or is just having the UTEC run CLB help control boost aganist temperature changes?

1. As you change the ABC, you will need to change the CLB values as well. The comment regarding "safety" is probably not relevant, as this is more about CLB control, not "safety."

2. I'm interested in this as well. I don't recall reading that ABC opening is directly linked to temperature related boost variability.

Methinks boost tuning has multiple strategies that work, each has their advantages and disadvantages. Until TXS comes out with some form of temperature compensation, we'll just have to pick a strategy and adjust accordingly.


edit: own3d by the 7th page.

I can see a direct correlation between the CLB values and the BCS % use. I was pondering about your theory of not maxing out the BCS, which is reasonable, and thus I think I'll keep my values between 70-90 and just mess w/ the ABC. I figured since I've tested w/ 5 turns out that I got 15.5psi+/-, thus it can't be too far to obtain 16-16.5psi just by turning the ABC out more. I did a quick test and I can go as far as 10 turns out if necessary. I'll do some logging tomorrow and see what psi I get w/ turns out and go from there.
Right now I know w/ the current CLB vales of -100 from the previous ones posted I'm only utilizing the BCS 1.3% more than 70-90 since my values in Log 3 are 70-90 from 3250-5500rpm+. I'm sure turning the ABC will allow me to obtain 16-16.5psi before the 10th turn, somethign which I hope I will not have to use. ;)

04706134 3505 +5.9 3.7 100 60 00 rich 91 325.00
04706534 3538 +9.6 3.8 101 80 00 rich 84 325.00
04706934 3591 +13.3 3.8 101 90 00 rich 81 325.00
04707334 3639 +15.5 3.8 101 90 00 rich 79 325.00
04707734 3695 +16.8 3.8 101 90 00 rich 82 325.00
04708134 3736 +17.0 3.8 100 90 00 rich 81 325.00
04708534 3753 +16.6 3.9 101 90 00 rich 79 325.00
04708934 3858 +16.4 3.9 101 90 00 rich 80 325.00
04709334 3827 +16.4 3.8 101 90 00 rich 86 325.00
04709734 3889 +16.1 3.9 101 90 00 rich 82 325.00
04710134 3935 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 86 325.00
04710534 3987 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 85 325.00
04710934 4006 +15.7 3.9 100 90 00 rich 79 325.00
04711334 4030 +15.9 3.8 99 90 00 rich 89 325.00
04711734 4065 +16.4 3.9 98 90 00 rich 86 325.00
04712134 4151 +16.6 3.9 98 90 00 rich 86 325.00
04712534 4177 +16.6 3.9 98 90 00 rich 81 325.00
04712934 4187 +16.8 4.0 98 90 00 rich 82 325.00
04713334 4290 +17.0 4.0 97 90 00 rich 72 300.00
04713734 4306 +17.2 4.0 96 90 00 rich 71 300.00
04714134 4363 +16.8 4.0 96 90 00 rich 77 300.00
04714534 4380 +16.8 4.0 96 90 00 rich 73 300.00
04714934 4432 +16.8 4.0 96 90 00 rich 72 300.00
04715334 4444 +16.4 4.0 96 90 00 rich 73 300.00
04715734 4480 +16.6 4.0 95 90 00 rich 74 300.00
04716134 4541 +17.0 4.0 95 90 00 rich 66 300.00
04716534 4547 +17.4 4.0 95 100 00 rich 69 300.00
04716934 4566 +17.6 4.0 95 90 00 rich 66 300.00
04717334 4636 +17.6 4.1 95 90 00 rich 70 300.00
04717734 4675 +17.4 4.1 94 90 00 rich 71 300.00
04718134 4741 +17.4 4.1 94 100 00 rich 68 300.00
04718534 4708 +17.2 4.1 94 90 00 rich 73 300.00
04718934 4768 +17.0 4.1 94 90 00 rich 78 300.00
04719334 4796 +17.0 4.1 94 90 00 rich 73 300.00
04719734 4837 +15.9 4.1 93 80 00 rich 78 300.00
04720134 4823 +15.9 4.1 93 80 00 rich 69 300.00
04720534 4901 +15.7 4.2 93 80 00 rich 74 300.00
04720934 4990 +16.1 4.2 93 90 00 rich 71 300.00
04721334 4967 +16.1 4.2 93 90 00 rich 77 300.00
04721734 5027 +15.5 4.2 93 80 00 rich 76 300.00
04722134 5096 +15.7 4.2 92 80 00 rich 71 300.00
04722534 5065 +15.3 4.2 91 90 00 rich 71 300.00
04722934 5058 +15.1 4.2 92 80 00 rich 76 300.00
04723334 5112 +15.7 4.2 91 80 00 rich 73 300.00
04723734 5159 +15.3 4.2 91 80 00 rich 81 300.00
04724134 5291 +15.3 4.2 90 80 00 rich 70 300.00
04724534 5324 +15.1 4.2 90 80 00 12.5 81 300.00
04724934 5257 +15.3 4.2 90 80 00 rich 84 330.00
04725334 5350 +15.9 4.2 90 90 00 rich 78 300.00
04725734 5393 +15.3 4.2 89 80 00 rich 74 300.00
04726134 5385 +15.7 4.2 90 80 00 rich 74 300.00
04726534 5393 +14.9 4.2 88 80 00 rich 83 320.00
04726934 5420 +15.3 4.2 88 80 00 rich 78 320.00
04727334 5473 +15.1 4.2 88 90 00 rich 89 320.00
04727734 5491 +15.1 4.2 87 80 00 rich 91 330.00
04728134 5491 +15.1 4.2 86 80 00 rich 86 320.00
04728534 5564 +14.9 4.2 85 80 00 rich 77 320.00
04728934 5537 +15.5 4.3 85 90 00 rich 79 320.00
04729334 5621 +15.9 4.2 85 90 00 rich 83 320.00
04729734 5611 +15.9 4.3 85 80 00 rich 85 330.00
04730134 5659 +15.5 4.3 84 80 00 rich 82 330.00
04730534 5659 +14.9 4.3 84 80 00 rich 88 320.00
04730934 5649 +14.1 4.2 84 70 00 rich 95 330.00
04731334 5659 +13.9 4.2 84 70 00 rich 89 330.00
04731734 5868 +14.3 4.3 82 80 00 rich 89 330.00
04732134 5797 +14.1 4.3 82 80 00 rich 94 330.00
04732534 5817 +14.7 4.3 82 80 00 rich 93 330.00

It seems like w/ the ABC @ 7 turns out and the boost values dropped -100 from the beginning boost values, I'm hitting the mid 17+psi which is "not" what I want. However if I look at Log 3 it's having this problem around 3500-4750 so I just dropped the boost values another -25. The BCS seems in the middle range which is what I've been trying to do since the original post about the BCS. Technically I would increase the boost values from 5000-redline rpm too or it it better to run 15psi around 5K rpm and let it die down till redline?

03954934 3290 +4.5 3.6 100 50 00 rich 99 330.00
03955334 3310 +8.0 3.7 101 70 00 rich 89 330.00
03955734 3363 +11.3 3.7 101 80 00 rich 87 330.00
03956134 3360 +13.9 3.6 102 90 00 rich 83 330.00
03956534 3408 +15.5 3.7 102 90 00 rich 84 330.00
03956934 3508 +16.1 3.7 102 90 00 rich 71 300.00
03957334 3557 +16.4 3.7 101 90 00 rich 71 300.00
03957734 3580 +16.4 3.7 101 90 00 rich 73 300.00
03958134 3642 +16.4 3.8 101 90 00 rich 73 300.00
03958534 3691 +16.4 3.8 101 90 00 rich 73 300.00
03958934 3716 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 75 300.00
03959334 3770 +16.1 3.8 100 90 00 rich 72 300.00
03959734 3805 +15.9 3.8 99 90 00 rich 73 300.00
03960134 3844 +15.7 3.9 99 80 00 rich 77 300.00
03960534 3889 +15.7 3.8 98 80 00 rich 71 300.00
03960934 3944 +16.1 3.8 97 90 00 rich 69 300.00
03961334 3944 +16.4 3.8 96 90 00 rich 77 300.00
03961734 4011 +16.1 3.9 96 80 00 rich 79 300.00
03962134 4074 +16.1 3.9 95 80 00 rich 74 300.00
03962534 4105 +16.1 3.9 93 90 00 rich 69 300.00
03962934 4177 +16.4 3.9 93 90 00 rich 75 300.00
03963334 4219 +16.6 3.9 92 90 00 rich 75 300.00
03963734 4246 +16.6 3.9 92 90 00 rich 72 300.00
03964134 4290 +16.4 3.9 92 90 00 rich 61 275.00
03964534 4290 +16.4 4.0 92 90 00 rich 64 275.00
03964934 4357 +16.8 4.0 91 90 00 rich 60 275.00
03965334 4438 +16.6 4.0 91 90 00 rich 63 275.00
03965734 4468 +16.6 4.0 91 90 00 rich 62 275.00
03966134 4444 +16.8 4.0 90 90 00 rich 62 275.00
03966534 4510 +16.4 4.0 90 90 00 rich 63 275.00
03966934 4535 +15.9 4.0 90 80 00 rich 70 275.00
03967334 4572 +15.7 4.0 88 80 00 rich 65 275.00
03967734 4604 +15.9 4.0 87 90 00 rich 60 275.00
03968134 4636 +15.9 4.0 87 90 00 rich 66 275.00
03968534 4714 +17.0 4.1 86 90 00 rich 60 275.00
03968934 4721 +16.4 4.0 85 90 00 rich 68 275.00
03969334 4796 +16.1 4.1 85 80 00 rich 58 275.00
03969734 4830 +16.4 4.1 84 90 00 rich 60 275.00
03970134 4873 +15.7 4.1 84 90 00 rich 65 275.00
03970534 4880 +16.4 4.1 83 90 00 rich 62 275.00
03970934 4880 +16.1 4.1 82 90 00 rich 71 275.00
03971334 4967 +15.5 4.1 82 80 00 rich 65 275.00
03971734 4982 +16.4 4.1 82 90 00 rich 68 300.00
03972134 5065 +15.9 4.1 81 90 00 rich 80 300.00
03972534 5065 +16.4 4.1 80 90 00 rich 67 300.00
03972934 5104 +16.4 4.2 80 80 00 rich 80 300.00
03973334 5159 +14.9 4.2 80 80 00 rich 82 300.00
03973734 5151 +14.7 4.2 79 80 00 rich 72 300.00
03974134 5274 +14.9 4.2 79 90 00 rich 73 300.00
03974534 5341 +14.7 4.2 79 80 00 rich 76 300.00
03974934 5341 +14.9 4.2 78 80 00 rich 76 300.00
03975334 5307 +15.1 4.2 78 80 00 rich 70 300.00
03975734 5376 +14.9 4.2 77 80 00 rich 68 300.00
03976134 5402 +14.9 4.2 76 80 00 rich 80 300.00
03976534 5428 +14.7 4.2 75 70 00 rich 88 320.00
03976934 5500 +15.1 4.2 74 80 00 rich 78 330.00
03977334 5527 +14.9 4.2 74 90 00 rich 79 320.00
03977734 5546 +14.7 4.2 74 80 00 rich 89 320.00
03978134 5583 +14.7 4.2 74 70 00 rich 88 320.00
03978534 5952 +13.7 4.2 74 70 00 rich 87 320.00

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [300] [300] [300] [300]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [270] [270] [270] [270]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [270] [270] [270] [270]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [275] [275] [275] [275]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [290] [290] [290] [290]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [300] [300] [300] [300]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [320] [320] [320] [320]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [330] [330] [330] [330]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [335] [335] [335] [335]

04523734 3584 -4.3 3.3 102 10 00 13.5 106 300.00
04524134 3757 -0.6 3.7 101 30 00 rich 92 300.00
04524534 3903 +4.7 3.8 101 60 00 rich 76 300.00
04524934 4070 +9.2 3.9 102 80 00 rich 78 300.00
04525334 4284 +13.1 3.9 101 90 00 rich 73 300.00
04525734 4432 +14.9 4.0 101 90 00 rich 69 275.00
04526134 4681 +15.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 72 275.00
04526534 4844 +15.7 4.1 101 80 00 rich 61 275.00
04526934 5112 +15.7 4.1 101 90 00 rich 72 300.00
04527334 5274 +15.5 4.1 100 80 00 rich 80 300.00
04527734 5402 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 79 300.00
04528134 5630 +14.7 4.2 100 80 00 rich 86 320.00
04528534 5817 +13.7 4.3 101 70 00 rich 96 330.00
04528934 6105 +13.5 4.2 100 70 00 rich 101 335.00
04529334 6218 +13.1 4.3 100 70 00 rich 91 335.00
04529734 6349 +12.7 4.2 100 70 00 rich 95 335.00
04530134 6447 +12.7 4.3 100 70 00 rich 96 335.00
04530534 6734 +12.5 4.3 101 70 00 rich 95 335.00
04530934 6775 +12.5 4.4 100 70 00 rich 95 335.00
04531334 6802 +11.0 3.9 11 00 00 rich 0 ECU.
04531734 6447 +5.7 2.0 0 00 00 rich 18 ECU.
04532134 6082 -0.2 2.1 0 00 00 17.1 20 ECU.
04532534 5678 -5.9 2.3 4 00 00 lean 19 ECU.
04532934 4990 -8.7 3.5 26 00 00 17.3 0 ECU.
04533334 4975 -5.1 4.0 74 10 00 rich 77 275.00
04533734 5073 +1.5 4.1 100 60 00 rich 73 300.00
04534134 5136 +7.8 4.2 102 80 02 rich 74 300.00
04534534 5151 +12.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich 71 300.00
04534934 5393 +15.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich 68 300.00
04535334 5359 +14.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 81 300.00

Everything seems fine as boost is between 16.1-16.4 however I did have a few spikes of 16.8-17psi. All of this was done at 39F degrees. I also got knock in a 2nd-3rd run w/ boost being fineat the 5000 rpm point? I've adjusted the boost map: 4250-4500rpm went from 275 to 270 and 5000rpm went from 300 to 390. Do you think it's necessary to adjust these two sets of rpm points or should I let it go? I know that sudden boost spikes will cause knock so I'm trying to stay under 16.5psi all 90% of the times.

Is a good assumption to have 16psi average w/ a max boost of 16.5psi, thus I could run more timing?

Not necessarily.

I'd be really careful hitting 17psi on pump gas without tuning fuel. Even then, I'd be really careful hitting 17psi on the stock turbo. It can be done, but it's just not efficient. Pull some boost out - run 16 perhaps. Remember, when it's colder, the air is more dense. When the air is more dense, it's holding more O2 at a given boost level AND flow rate boosting your AFRs.

Also, don't tune for MAX boost in 3rd. If you do, I can practically guarantee you will knock in 4th and 5th, under higher loads. 17psi in 3rd can easily be 18 in 4th.

Since you're seeing knock, the last thing you want to do is add timing.

-Sean

I meant ... I do NOT want to see more than 16.5psi at any time. I can target 16psi in "4th;" I've beeing tunning all of my boost values in "4th" from 3K-5.5K rpm +. ;) I've seen 17psi in cold weather ... 25-35 degree however it's only in a certain range. I can lower the CLB values. I think I'll try to hit 16psi and no more than 16.5psi at any time including 20s degree weather.

That's a good plan - tune for that, get det free, and then tune from there.

Det free is the key, of course, you REALLY don't want a cylinder to let go.

-Sean

Made this a sticky....Plan on some cleanup of this forum soon...
Enought of....UTEC this ...Utec That...How do I tune a UTEC....just so you guys know.....FAQ's are coming.. so this forum can be worthwhile to nOObs and experts alike....

Thanks

Bill

2000 WRX/RS Utec tuned :)

Excellent idea - it could definitely use some cleaning.

Lots of handy UTEC info in one place would fix lots of questions. Now all we need is loaner WbO2's in AutoZones nationwide.:disco:

-Sean

1. Thanks Bill for making this stick. I'm hoping that my "million" questions will help someone in the future.

2. I just spent another 1.5hrs doing some more runs. I've changed my target ... I'm now shooting for 16psi w/ a max psi at 16.5psi; thus the psi range will vary between 15.7-16.1psi w/ spikes at 16.5-16.8psi. All of this was done at 35 degrees however if CLB works as it should; I should still see similar results during higher temperatures. I've been thinking more and more and I can see to inverse effect of "either" more timing or higher boost. I can see 16psi from 3500-5500rpm and of course it's not consistent. I'll post my CLB values tomorrow at work when I do hopefully my final run to confirm my boost values are correct for 16psi. :D

03043734 3408 +10.8 3.7 102 80 00 rich 88 330.00
03044134 3461 +13.9 3.6 101 80 00 rich 84 330.00
03044534 3439 +15.5 3.7 101 90 00 rich 74 310.00
03044934 3549 +15.9 3.7 101 90 00 rich 75 310.00
03045334 3576 +16.4 3.8 102 90 00 rich 76 310.00
03045734 3576 +15.9 3.8 102 80 00 rich 83 310.00
03046134 3683 +15.7 3.8 101 80 00 rich 76 310.00
03046534 3707 +15.7 3.8 101 80 00 rich 78 310.00
03046934 3783 +15.3 3.8 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
03047334 3796 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 76 310.00
03047734 3840 +15.9 3.9 101 90 00 rich 80 310.00
03048134 3926 +16.1 3.8 101 80 00 rich 76 310.00
03048534 3940 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
03048934 3963 +16.4 3.8 101 90 00 rich 71 310.00
03049334 4006 +16.1 3.9 101 90 00 rich 84 310.00
03049734 4079 +15.9 3.9 101 80 00 rich 78 310.00
03050134 4105 +16.1 3.9 101 90 00 rich 75 310.00
03050534 4177 +16.1 3.9 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
03050934 4224 +16.4 3.9 101 90 00 rich 78 310.00
03051334 4262 +16.4 4.0 101 80 00 rich 77 310.00
03051734 4262 +15.9 4.0 101 80 00 rich 69 280.00
03052134 4329 +16.1 4.0 101 90 00 rich 58 280.00
03052534 4357 +16.6 4.0 101 90 00 rich 64 280.00
03052934 4409 +16.6 4.0 101 90 00 rich 64 280.00
03053334 4426 +17.2 4.0 101 90 00 rich 62 280.00
03053734 4462 +17.0 4.0 101 90 00 rich 61 280.00
03054134 4498 +16.6 4.0 101 90 00 rich 63 270.00
03054534 4578 +16.8 4.1 101 90 00 rich 58 270.00
03054934 4629 +16.4 4.0 101 90 00 rich 62 270.00
03055334 4636 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 64 270.00
03055734 4610 +16.6 4.1 101 90 00 rich 60 270.00
03056134 4681 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich 65 270.00
03056534 4721 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 62 270.00
03056934 4782 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 68 270.00
03057334 4768 +15.5 4.1 101 90 00 rich 61 270.00
03057734 4796 +16.4 4.1 101 90 00 rich 58 270.00
03058134 4837 +16.8 4.1 101 90 00 rich 58 270.00
03058534 4901 +17.4 4.1 101 100 00 rich 57 270.00
03058934 4960 +17.2 4.1 101 90 00 rich 61 270.00
03059334 4938 +16.4 4.1 101 80 00 rich 62 270.00
03059734 5005 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 69 270.00
03060134 4982 +15.3 4.2 102 80 00 rich 67 275.00
03060534 5027 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 63 275.00
03060934 5136 +15.5 4.1 108 80 00 rich 67 275.00
03061334 5216 +16.4 4.2 101 90 00 rich 58 275.00
03061734 5192 +17.0 4.2 101 100 00 rich 56 275.00
03062134 5200 +16.8 4.2 101 90 00 rich 80 300.00
03062534 5216 +17.0 4.2 101 80 00 rich 81 300.00
03062934 5265 +15.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 75 300.00
03063334 5316 +15.1 4.2 101 80 03 rich 87 320.00
03063734 5350 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 71 300.00
03064134 5393 +15.3 4.3 53 00 00 rich 75 300.00

04032934 3336 +13.1 3.7 102 90 00 rich 85 330.00
04033334 3454 +15.5 3.7 101 90 00 rich 86 330.00
04033734 3523 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 81 310.00
04034134 3527 +16.4 3.7 101 90 00 rich 75 310.00
04034534 3576 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
04034934 3646 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 78 310.00
04035334 3736 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 76 310.00
04035734 3757 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 82 310.00
04036134 3840 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 79 310.00
04036534 3875 +15.9 3.8 101 90 00 rich 74 310.00
04036934 3916 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich 76 310.00
04037334 3977 +16.6 3.8 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
04037734 4040 +16.6 3.9 101 90 00 rich 79 310.00
04038134 4035 +16.6 3.9 101 90 00 rich 71 310.00
04038534 4166 +16.4 3.9 101 90 00 rich 76 310.00
04038934 4187 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 82 310.00
04039334 4219 +16.1 4.0 101 90 00 rich 72 310.00
04039734 4278 +16.1 4.0 101 90 00 rich 70 280.00
04040134 4351 +16.4 4.0 101 90 00 rich 63 280.00
04040534 4351 +16.4 4.0 102 90 00 rich 66 280.00
04040934 4480 +16.1 4.1 102 90 00 rich 63 280.00
04041334 4474 +15.9 4.0 101 80 00 rich 68 280.00
04041734 4504 +16.1 4.0 102 90 00 rich 58 270.00
04042134 4572 +16.6 4.1 101 90 00 rich 57 270.00
04042534 4597 +16.6 4.1 101 90 00 rich 65 270.00
04042934 4668 +16.8 4.1 101 90 00 rich 57 270.00
04043334 4694 +16.4 4.1 101 90 00 rich 59 270.00
04043734 4734 +16.6 4.2 101 90 00 rich 50 270.00
04044134 4755 +16.6 4.1 101 90 00 rich 57 270.00
04044534 4775 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 66 270.00
04044934 4866 +15.5 4.1 101 80 00 rich 67 270.00
04045334 4901 +14.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 62 270.00
04045734 4894 +14.9 4.2 102 90 00 rich 61 270.00
04046134 5042 +15.9 4.1 101 90 00 rich 53 275.00
04046534 5012 +16.1 4.2 101 90 00 rich 68 275.00
04046934 5096 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich 70 275.00
04047334 5184 +16.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich 62 275.00
04047734 5151 +15.5 4.2 101 90 00 rich 61 275.00
04048134 5167 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 80 300.00
04048534 5241 +15.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 79 300.00
04048934 5282 +15.3 4.2 102 80 00 rich 79 300.00
04049334 5257 +15.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich 74 300.00
04049734 5376 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 83 320.00
04050134 5402 +14.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 76 300.00
04050534 5564 +15.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich 83 320.00
04050934 5509 +15.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich 85 320.00
04051334 5973 +14.9 4.3 101 80 00 rich 85 320.00
04051734 5555 +14.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 92 330.00
04052134 5668 +13.9 4.3 102 70 00 rich 89 320.00
04052534 5688 +14.1 4.3 101 70 00 rich 88 320.00
04052934 5668 +13.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich 89 320.00
04053334 5717 +14.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich 77 320.00
04053734 5717 +15.5 4.3 101 90 00 rich 84 330.00
04054134 5757 +15.3 4.3 101 80 00 rich 89 330.00
04054534 5899 +15.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich 89 330.00
04054934 5797 +14.3 4.3 101 70 00 rich 93 330.00
04055334 6006 +13.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich 92 330.00
04055734 5931 +13.7 4.3 101 80 00 rich 93 330.00
04056134 6060 +13.5 4.3 102 70 00 rich 94 335.00

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [310] [310] [310] [310]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [310] [310] [310] [310]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [310] [310] [310] [310]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [280] [280] [280] [280]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [270] [270] [270] [270]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [270] [270] [270] [270]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [275] [275] [275] [275]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [300] [300] [300] [300]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [320] [320] [320] [320]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [330] [330] [330] [330]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [335] [335] [335] [335]

1. These are two runs which I did this morning to work. It's 28 degrees however "feels" like 20s according to the weather channel. It seems like the most variant occurs between 4254-5250 rpm; if you look at the two runs the first run always seems to have a "higher" boost spike than the second run. This seems consistent per my "many" runs during testing.

2. I'm running 16psi @ 3500 - 5250 rpm then 15.5psi @ 5500-6000 and finally <14psi till redline. I'm trying to target 16psi w/ a expected variance of 15.5-16.5 psi. I'm confortable w/ these numbers since I know it is "cold" outside. Do you think it's necessary to fine tune lower the boost values even more in the 4250-5250 rpm range considering the fact that it's cold outside? I could lower the boost values @ 4250 from 80 to 75 and @ 4500 rpm from 70 to 65?

3. The BCS cycle are between 50-90 which is fine as compared to the previous 133. The boost values which I posted are from 3500-6000rpm.

4. I just hope the CLB does what it's supposed to do when it gets "warmer."

When it get warmer you may need to make a boost map with slightly higher values.

I'm really surprised you don't get more spiking with your ABC out 6 turns. I've always been advised to only turn it out 1-2 turns and then tune the boost map from there.

When I first started in CLB ... I was tunning the CLB values w/ the ABC @ 1.5 turns out. However my BCS was maxed at 133 which someone suggested was "not" a good idea. Thus I first adjusted the CLB values to between in the BCS range of 50-90, then adjust the ABC to obtain 16psi, then finally made small adjustments to the CLB values. Also CLB is "supposed" to NOT be affected by temperature changes thus I should still see 15.5-16psi when it gets warmer.

What about your first run of those three? You were over 17psi for a lot of it. You got 3 knock events in the cycle at 5300, with no shifting or throttle modulation at all.

Rather than open the ABC 6 turns, you might want to try adjusting the wastegate actuater arm. There is a c-clip you can pop off, and then turn the arm to tighten it. Search on wastegate flutter, and spot the really long thread. Nobody mentions using this solution for your issue, but your boost looks really inconsistent. You can probably tighten it a couple of turns and close that ABC back down a bit.

I wouldn't want to drive my car if I knew it would det somewhat seriously on 1 out of 3 runs.

Good luck...

-Sean

I've actually heard that the ECU reflash fixes some of the knocks in the higher rpm range. I'm assuming the knock would be fixed wither w/ that method or adjusting the A/F on a dyno w/ a WB O2 sensor. It onlys happens in a certain range and if I go WOT in 4th starting in 3.5rpm. During my normal daily driving I get "0" knocks ... if I get aggressive which happens many times, I many get knock but it's because ofthe A/F ... at least that's what I'm puzzling together. If I continue to get knock in normal WOT "after' tunning, then it'll be a problem.

Well, as stated several times before, you need to get that fuel curve slammed out. I'd pull out a pound of boost just to be on the safe side until you do.

If you find a tuner or a friend with a WbO2, you don't need a dyno to do that. You can road-tune the fuel-curve pretty darn well, especially at stage 2.

Or, you can buy a decent WbO2 for $300 - less than any reflash!

Seriously, just look at the cost of the time you've spent on this - it seems like tens and tens of hours.

Not to mention the cost of an engine tear-down if a ring land lets go on you. Don't go there, if you can help it.

I'm running det-free with great power on a UTEC alone - no reflash required. If you've already spent the dough on a UTEC, why would you consider a reflash, especially at stage 2? Or are you talking about a Subaru of America recall-type reflash?

What it comes down to: you won't be able to feel a half-pound of boost. Air is denser at 30F than 50F than 70F. 17psi at 60F is NOT the same thing as 17psi at 30F. Much more O = leaner AFRs, with the same boost and everything. Tune safely if you want that car to last. And tune fuel before doing anything else.

-Sean

1. Yes, I've spent hour and hours learning about the whole ECU tuning. It's actually quite fun and educating.

2. Yes, I was referring to the "free" Subaru ECU reflash.

3. I figured boost was independant of tuning the A/F, it should still remain the same? Also the car should run "leaner" at cooler temperature since it's more dense. Thus the reason for the lower boost values so if I'm shooting for 16psi in cold weather it should be even safer when the temperature increase.

1. I know the feeling, believe me. It's fun.

2. There you go! :D

3. True, tuning fuel and boost are mostly independent, as the fuel is by MAF, so more air = more fuel. My point is that you are still getting det with your current setup. It's a turbo car, it's going to det sometimes - it's just a fact of life. Don't worry TOO much about a 1-count once in a while, but if you're seeing multi-count dets on one in three runs, or one in five, you're pushing too much with those maps. I was suggesting that, at least until you can tune fuel, that you pull boost back to 15.5 or 16, max, just to make sure you don't break anything.

Remember, det damage is cumulative, to a point. It causes more and more damage until something fails.

-Sean

I understand, learning is fun when you have a goal. I can look back just 2yrs+ ago when I knew "0" about cars except where the key goes and where to add gas, literally. I understand your concern for me and I do appreciate your thought. I agree concerns knock as the reason why I decided to let the ECU control timing again until I can adjust the A/F to the proper mixture. I think the knock from this morning was caused either by the A/F or the ECU just being "slow." You can see that everything was fine and boost was way w/in safety zones.

Actually, that's not really what I saw - on the log with knock, you were showing over 17psi several times.

One more thing, I'm sure I recommended this a while ago, but are you looking at MAP in absolute or gauge mode?

Given that you are at over 1000' of elevation, absolute pressure will read almost two pounds lower than gauge pressure. You should change the UTEC over to gauge mode if you're not there now...

A problem with letting the ECU control timing: the ECU does not listen for knock over ~5500 rpm. The ECU will hapilly dial in a timing boost immediatly after a knock, because it doesn't listen for it.

I don't think that the ECU or the AFR sensor are ever really too slow for a car at your level of mods, unless you have a physical problem.

-Sean

I do remember you stating a while back but I think I totally ignored that fact. Since the default is "absolute" why do we need "guage?" What factor(s) will cause the gauge psi to read "higher" than absolute psi? Where does it state that at 1K+ ft it's better to use guage than absolute? I've looked through the manual and did see any details.
I'm assuming you want me to switch to guage to see a higher psi level thus turning the ABC back towards closed more. I really wish I had a dyno so I can stop making 4th gear runs on the roads.

01588534 3174 +3.1 3.4 81 30 00 15.3 110 335.00
01588934 3217 +5.7 3.6 102 50 00 rich 98 335.00
01589334 3192 +9.4 3.6 102 70 00 rich 88 335.00
01589734 3297 +12.7 3.7 101 80 00 rich 87 330.00
01590134 3290 +15.3 3.6 102 90 00 rich 83 330.00
01590534 3287 +16.7 3.6 101 90 00 rich 84 330.00
01590934 3336 +17.2 3.7 101 90 00 rich 84 330.00
01591334 3447 +17.2 3.6 101 90 00 rich 85 330.00
01591734 3418 +16.7 3.7 102 80 00 rich 87 330.00
01592134 3497 +16.7 3.7 102 90 00 rich 77 310.00
01592534 3549 +16.9 3.7 101 90 00 rich 74 310.00
01592934 3576 +16.9 3.8 101 90 00 rich 80 310.00
01593334 3639 +16.9 3.8 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
01593734 3691 +16.7 3.8 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
01594134 3711 +16.3 3.7 101 80 00 rich 77 310.00
01594534 3749 +16.3 3.8 102 80 00 rich 80 310.00
01594934 3736 +16.3 3.8 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
01595334 3827 +16.5 3.8 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
01595734 3840 +16.7 3.8 101 90 00 rich 77 310.00
01596134 3898 +16.5 3.9 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
01596534 3871 +16.3 3.8 101 80 00 rich 81 310.00
01596934 3987 +16.1 3.9 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
01597334 4011 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 78 310.00
01597734 4035 +16.5 3.9 101 80 00 rich 76 310.00
01598134 4060 +16.5 3.9 101 90 00 rich 80 310.00
01598534 4100 +16.7 3.9 101 90 00 rich 74 310.00
01598934 4156 +17.4 3.9 101 90 00 rich 78 310.00
01599334 4192 +16.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 79 310.00
01599734 4240 +16.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 78 310.00
01600134 4284 +16.3 3.9 101 80 00 rich 67 280.00
01600534 4290 +15.9 4.0 102 80 00 rich 69 280.00
01600934 4334 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 70 280.00
01601334 4397 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 64 280.00
01601734 4397 +16.3 4.0 101 80 00 rich 62 280.00
01602134 4462 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 67 280.00
01602534 4535 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 64 270.00
01602934 4522 +16.5 4.0 101 90 00 rich 58 270.00
01603334 4498 +16.3 4.0 101 90 00 rich 64 270.00
01603734 4528 +16.9 4.0 101 90 00 rich 58 270.00
01604134 4668 +16.7 4.0 101 80 00 rich 63 270.00
01604534 4649 +16.7 4.0 101 80 00 rich 63 270.00
01604934 4668 +16.7 4.1 101 90 00 rich 56 270.00
01605334 4662 +16.3 4.1 101 80 00 rich 60 270.00
01605734 4721 +16.3 4.1 101 80 00 rich 63 270.00
01606134 4852 +16.5 4.1 102 80 00 rich 63 270.00
01606534 4803 +16.3 4.1 101 90 00 rich 61 270.00
01606934 4789 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 67 270.00
01607334 4830 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 65 270.00
01607734 4967 +15.7 4.1 101 80 00 rich 66 270.00
01608134 4909 +16.1 4.1 101 90 00 rich 53 270.00
01608534 4901 +16.3 4.1 101 90 00 rich 69 275.00
01608934 4990 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 71 275.00
01609334 4990 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 69 275.00
01609734 5089 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 60 275.00
01610134 5058 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich 71 275.00
01610534 5128 +16.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 62 275.00
01610934 5184 +17.2 4.2 101 90 00 rich 61 275.00
01611334 5291 +16.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich 80 300.00
01611734 5241 +16.5 4.2 102 80 00 rich 80 300.00
01612134 5241 +16.7 4.2 101 90 00 rich 68 300.00
01612534 5341 +16.3 4.2 101 90 00 rich 72 300.00
01612934 5350 +17.2 4.2 101 90 00 rich 70 300.00
01613334 5350 +17.2 4.2 101 90 00 rich 72 300.00
01613734 5402 +16.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 75 300.00
01614134 5455 +17.2 4.2 101 90 00 rich 67 300.00
01614534 5428 +17.4 4.2 101 100 00 rich 71 300.00
01614934 5464 +16.9 4.2 101 90 00 rich 85 320.00
01615334 5555 +16.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 87 330.00
01615734 5640 +15.7 4.3 102 70 00 rich 87 320.00
01616134 5688 +14.9 4.3 102 80 00 rich 87 320.00
01616534 5717 +14.9 4.3 101 80 00 rich 87 320.00
01616934 5737 +14.9 4.2 104 80 00 rich 93 330.00

04352934 3038 +1.0 3.2 102 20 00 rich 112 335.00
04353334 3046 +3.9 3.4 102 40 00 rich 104 335.00
04353734 3095 +7.6 3.5 102 60 00 rich 93 335.00
04354134 3112 +11.2 3.6 102 80 00 rich 88 335.00
04354534 3150 +13.7 3.5 102 80 00 rich 90 335.00
04354934 3180 +15.1 3.6 102 80 00 rich 91 335.00
04355334 3245 +15.3 3.6 102 80 00 rich 95 335.00
04355734 3223 +15.3 3.6 102 80 00 rich 86 330.00
04356134 3340 +15.5 3.6 102 80 00 rich 87 330.00
04356534 3310 +15.7 3.6 102 80 00 rich 86 330.00
04356934 3411 +16.3 3.7 102 80 00 rich 86 330.00
04357334 3422 +16.3 3.6 102 80 00 rich 85 330.00
04357734 3450 +16.3 3.7 102 80 00 rich 87 330.00
04358134 3472 +16.1 3.6 102 80 00 rich 78 310.00
04358534 3557 +15.7 3.7 102 80 00 rich 81 310.00
04358934 3534 +15.9 3.7 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
04359334 3584 +15.5 3.8 102 80 00 rich 82 310.00
04359734 3650 +15.3 3.8 102 80 00 rich 82 310.00
04360134 3707 +15.5 3.7 102 80 00 rich 79 310.00
04360534 3683 +15.9 3.8 102 90 00 rich 77 310.00
04360934 3724 +16.1 3.7 101 90 00 rich 78 310.00
04361334 3800 +16.3 3.7 101 80 00 rich 78 310.00
04361734 3787 +16.3 3.8 101 80 00 rich 78 310.00
04362134 3835 +15.9 3.8 101 80 00 rich 80 310.00
04362534 3898 +15.9 3.8 101 80 00 rich 77 310.00
04362934 3944 +16.1 3.8 101 80 00 rich 79 310.00
04363334 3949 +16.1 3.8 101 80 00 rich 80 310.00
04363734 3954 +16.5 3.8 101 90 00 rich 73 310.00
04364134 4001 +16.1 3.9 102 80 00 rich 89 320.00
04364534 4065 +15.9 3.8 101 80 00 rich 85 320.00
04364934 4089 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 83 320.00
04365334 4151 +15.3 3.8 101 80 00 rich 84 320.00
04365734 4171 +15.7 3.9 102 80 00 rich 87 320.00
04366134 4171 +15.7 3.9 101 80 00 rich 86 320.00
04366534 4192 +16.1 3.9 101 90 00 rich 78 320.00
04366934 4224 +16.5 3.9 101 90 00 rich 67 280.00
04367334 4268 +16.7 3.9 101 90 00 rich 65 280.00
04367734 4351 +16.5 3.9 102 80 00 rich 65 280.00
04368134 4363 +16.1 4.0 102 80 00 rich 71 280.00
04368534 4397 +15.9 4.0 101 80 00 rich 66 280.00
04368934 4403 +15.9 4.0 101 80 00 rich 71 280.00
04369334 4420 +15.7 4.0 102 80 00 rich 66 280.00
04369734 4432 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 57 270.00
04370134 4492 +16.1 4.0 101 80 00 rich 61 270.00
04370534 4559 +16.5 4.0 101 90 00 rich 56 270.00
04370934 4553 +16.7 4.0 101 90 00 rich 65 270.00
04371334 4591 +16.5 4.0 101 80 00 rich 61 270.00
04371734 4623 +16.5 4.0 102 80 00 rich 60 270.00
04372134 4649 +15.9 4.0 101 80 00 rich 66 270.00
04372534 4721 +15.5 4.0 101 80 00 rich 69 270.00
04372934 4701 +15.5 4.1 102 80 00 rich 68 270.00
04373334 4761 +15.5 4.0 102 80 00 rich 59 270.00
04373734 4782 +15.3 4.0 101 80 00 rich 63 270.00
04374134 4830 +15.7 4.0 101 80 00 rich 61 270.00
04374534 4837 +15.7 4.0 101 80 00 rich 65 270.00
04374934 4873 +15.7 4.0 101 80 00 rich 64 270.00
04375334 4830 +16.3 4.1 101 80 00 rich 59 270.00
04375734 4916 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 60 270.00
04376134 4916 +15.9 4.1 102 80 00 rich 61 270.00
04376534 4945 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 62 270.00
04376934 4997 +15.9 4.1 101 80 00 rich 67 280.00
04377334 5042 +16.5 4.1 102 90 00 rich 62 280.00
04377734 5112 +16.5 4.1 101 80 00 rich 65 280.00
04378134 5065 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 63 280.00
04378534 5081 +16.3 4.1 101 80 00 rich 67 280.00
04378934 5136 +15.7 4.1 101 80 00 rich 67 280.00
04379334 5144 +16.1 4.1 101 80 00 rich 75 300.00
04379734 5151 +15.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 79 300.00
04380134 5257 +15.3 4.2 101 70 00 rich 83 300.00
04380534 5324 +15.1 4.2 101 70 00 rich 82 320.00
04380934 5324 +14.1 4.2 102 70 02 rich 89 320.00
04381334 5359 +14.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 76 300.00
04381734 5518 +14.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich 74 300.00
04382134 5817 +15.3 4.2 101 80 00 rich 84 320.00
04382534 5611 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 86 320.00
04382934 5611 +15.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 79 320.00
04383334 5649 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich 85 320.00
04383734 5437 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 77 320.00
04384134 5640 +15.7 4.2 101 80 01 rich 85 320.00
04384534 5611 +15.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich 81 320.00
04384934 5899 +15.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich 86 320.00
04385334 5678 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich 87 320.00
04385734 5698 +15.3 4.3 102 80 00 rich 89 320.00

[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [310] [310] [310] [310]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [310] [310] [310] [310]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [320] [320] [320] [320]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [280] [280] [280] [280]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [270] [270] [270] [270]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [270] [270] [270] [270]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [280] [280] [280] [280]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [300] [300] [300] [300]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [320] [320] [320] [320]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [320] [320] [320] [320]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [335] [335] [335] [335]

1. There's definitely a difference between "absolute" vs. "gauge" boost mode readings. "Run 1" was done w/ the same values as yesterday but just w/ the UTEC reading boost in gauge rather than absolute. I would be boosting way too high as it hit 16.5-17.4psi.

2. "Final Run" was done after turning in the ABC towards closed for a total of 4 turns out and the CLB values were adjusted again. Boost now hits 15.9-16.5 psi between 3500-5500 w/ variations.

3. I got 2 knock occurrances as listed below. What I can't figure out is why they occurred? It was a consistent run and boost levels are well w/in safety levels. I think it's either the A/F or just the ECU being weird?

04380934 5324 +14.1 4.2 102 70 02 rich 89 320.00

04384134 5640 +15.7 4.2 101 80 01 rich 85 320.00

4. Now I'm running in CLB w/ BCS values between 60-85+/- using the UTEC gauge measurements @ 16psi+/- from 3500-5500 rpm tuned at 35 degrees. I think I will need to hit A/F now.

We can't see your timing in the logs, so that may be the culpurit. Try pulling 1 degree at the exact point(s) that the knock occured:

5250 X 70% --> reduce timing one degree
5500 X 80% --> reduce timing one degree

I normally would have pulled timing however the knocks occurred when I left the "ECU" to control timing. The UTEC is basically a very expensive EBC for me know. Why would knock occur if ECU is controlling timing and boost is well below 16psi?

It could very well knock with ECU in control. That's why the ECU has a learned knock correction ability.

The other possibility is it may not be real knock.

You need to log your ECU timing values (using log 1). It should step down as boost hits around 3k and then step back up as RPM approach redline. If it has a lot of peaks/valleys after 4k rpm, there's some tuning that needs to be done.

I've been trying to tune boost which seems fine now according to all the inputs from people. Next will be A/F then followed by timing; I should easily be able to run the timing from the base Stage 2 along w/ more aggressive numbers. I've looked at the tuned maps online and the majority if not all seems more aggressive. Humm, I guess the UTEC is "more" sensitive than the factory ECU. It could be :( or could be :).

The UTEC is definitely more sensitive than the factory ECU to detecting knock. However, you need to log timing. Cars knock all the time with EBCs or MBCs and straight ECU control for timing and fuel. Basically, the ECU is designed to run with around 14psi, and the stock exhaust. You've changed the exhaust out for a much less restrictive one, and you're running more boost.

This doesn't mean that the ECU can't handle it on its own, but having more precice control may help you.

My first recomendation would (still) be to forget any more runs until you are tuning fuel.

If you decide to keep on tuning, make sure you take logger 1 logs for posting. That way we can see timing and fuel. It will even show the ECUs timing, so we can see what's happening. Also, the ECU isn't even listening to the knock sensor for some of the knock you see - a very good argument for letting the UTEC control timing.

-Sean

Originally posted by chuglobal
Why would knock occur if ECU is controlling timing and boost is well below 16psi?

Because you are running a stage 2 = not stock. Start using logger #1 so that you can see what the ECU is doing to your timing.

So you're saying that w/ the UTEC timing to "ECU" that if a knock occurs then it does "not" pulling timing thus safer for me to run the base Stage 2 timing instead?

The UTEC will not pull timing when the ECU is managing timing - the UTEC only pulls its own timing. The ECU will pull its own timing when it senses knock, but not over ~5500 rpm - it stops listening to the knock sensor entirely.

-Sean

1. That's definitely an important point; I have no patience so I went ahead and set the timing back to the base Stage 2 w/ timing pulled 1 degree at 70% @ 4250, 5250, 5500, and 5750 rpms; these were the points which I knocked earlier today. I think using "gauge" mod in the UTEC and tuning for 16psi really helped in preventing knock "so far." I did a few aggressive shifts and WOT between 1st and 3rd but things seemed to be fine ... 0 knocks. Car pulled hard too. I feel boost is at a good level and thus the A/F will be next.

2. Also I read in the Manual for 3.1 that TurboXs tunes their cars for 10.5-10.7 A/F, isn't that a little rich?

3. So "normal language" explaining for the difference bwteen using "absolute" vs. "gauge" mode boost readings? Why does "gauge" read higher and which one is more accurate? Obviously if the default is in "absolute" and I see 16psi, if I switch to "gauge" I might actually see 17-18psi? This also seems to be "the" big cause of my previous knock problems.

4. Does boost seem right now; psi, BCS cycle, target range, etc?

Both are equally accurate, but gauge takes atmospheric pressure into account, and absolute does not. Basically, both are based on the same number - the reading from the MAP sensor - they just display differently.

TXS tunes for safety. 10.5 to 10.7 are nice, safe readings on pump gas. You can probably safely tune for 10.8-11.2 on pump, depending on location and octane available, but you lose some safety margin - margin that can easily help you with a tank of less-than-perfect gas. I know folks that tune 91 octane to 11.0, and it runs fine, but how long do you want the car to last? Sure, you leave a little power on the table, but engine tear-downs are expensive. I would be somewhat surprised, in fact, if TXS shot for 10.5 AFRs on cars they personally tune, but if you're sending out an off-the-shelf map, you HAVE to aim for safety.

-Sean

1. What I've heard locally was to shoot for 11.2 A/F. It was just a curiousity question since I read it on the manual. If I have a dyno then 11.2 is fine however if I'm using 3rd on the road then I should shoot for X; what I've also heard is that it'll be richer in 4th than 3rd so if I want 11.2 in 4th then I'm estimating I should shoot for 11.4 in 3rd? What is the approximate ratio for A/F change from 3rd to 4th?

2. I've also been driving "aggressively" to simulate worst conditions. I've been getting knock around the 4750-5000 rpm range is basically where the rpms hits after the gear switch. I've now pulled 2 degrees from 4750-5000 and 1 degree at 4250, 5250, 5500, 5750, and 6000. I can't wait to get the A/F so I can run more efficient and more power. :)

In trying to change the fuel filter as part of my 60K maintenance, I think we actually pulled a fuse that reset the ECU. I thought the only was to reset the ECU was disconnect the battery? Also Fuse #5 is the turn off the fuel pump if anyone wants to know. :)

There shouldn't be any change in AFR between 3rd and 4th, since fueling is determined by a 2-point table, with MAF load and RPM as the axes of the table. For example, 4.1 MAF at 5300 RPM has a certain fueling configuration. It does not matter whether that's in 3rd, 4th or 5th. Now, you will not see the same MAF load at the same rev point in the three different gears, but that won't matter with a properly tuned fuel curve.

In reality there is a difference. If you monitor the AFR in each gear, 1st will be the most lean with each subsequent gear slightly richer.

I think this is more of a physical relationship to the speed at which fuel can enter the cylinders and perhaps a function of load on the engine. More so than a function of the ECU although it will inject the same amount of fuel at a specific MAF voltage (and perhaps takes MAP into consideration) regardless of vehicle speed.

The ECU doesn't take MAP into account - just MAF and rpm. And the fuel curve for MAF is logarithmic, because the ratio of actual airflow to MAF is logarithmic.

It would make some sense that 1st gear is leaner than 5th gear, though, because the change between rpm sites on the afformentioned table happens so much faster. Floor it at 4000 in 1st, you are finished with the gear in 2 seconds - floor it at 4000 in 5th, and you're waiting a while until drag limits you to a top speed.

-Sean

Thus is the 1st gear theory is correct then wouldn't it follow the same path in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. It takes longer per gear as we get faster thus more fuel could enter the combustion chamber per rpm site. So if we're shooting for 11.3-4 in 3rd then it should be 11.2 in 4th? Also what would be a good guesstimate for 3rd gear if I want the end result to be 11.2 in 4th?

Think about it - you DON'T want 11.4 in 3rd. Seriously, you're doing yourself a disservice by trying to tune for the absolute max, especially - you leave no room for error, bad gas, weather differences, altutude, etc. Don't tune any gear that will see almost max boost for 11.4:1.

Seriously.

-Sean

So back then to the original questions, what is a desired A/F ie: 11.2, 11.1, 11.0, etc and in what gear if you don;t have access to a dyno? Which gear and what A/F did you shoot for?

On 93 oct, I shoot for 11:1 - 11.2:1 in 3rd on the street. This should land the car around 10.8:1 in 4th. Rich enough to combat high EGTs.

On the dyno in 4th this may or may not work out. Depends on the load the dyno is set to give.

Sounds fair - just pay attention and have an extra map setup for bad gas. Since all we get in CA is bad gas, well, I run a tad bit richer: 11:1. Yeah, I recommended a bit richer, but chuglobal hasn't had that thing professionally tuned...

-Sean

CLB is still affected by temperature ... the current boost map was tuned nicely at 30 degree which averaged me 15.9-16.3psi. Last night when I was driving home it was only averaging 15.3-15.7psi but it was 55 degrees outside thus a 25+ degree increase. I do have the ABC at 4 turns out from closed w/ the BCS cycling at 50-90 which is right. I can try and drop the turns down to 3 turns out from closed and increase the CLB values which will give me a higher BCS cycling value. What do you guys think? I speculate that the more the ABC is turned out the more it's affected by temperature however there needs to be a balance between ABC turns out vs. BCS cycle.

1. Would boost be more accurate in absolute than gauge? I have a feeling I might be too "conservative" using gauge mod.

2. Also I was looking at my old dyno run w/ the A/F, I can see deeps and peaks when the knocks occurred so I definitely have a good feeling that the A/F will correct the knock problems once tuned.

Seriously - set your boost down to 14psi until you get that fuel tuned. You're really spending a lot of time trying to break something here. You're car isn't too heavily modded, but do you really want to blow something up here? It's a lesson I had to learn as well - I'm speaking from experience.

1. I don't plan on doing any aggressive tuning till I obtain the correct A/F.

2. I just want to make sure to use either "absolute" or "gauge" when tuning. If "absolute" is correct then I should stay w/ it instead of using "gauge. " I'm assuming by your expression than I should use "absolute" when tuning for boost.

The interesting thing about the MAP reading in the Utec is it lags *behind* the actual MAP. Something like 200rpm. You can verify this by looking at the load site.

Example. My car's max MAP range is 0 to 19.5psi. Meaning at 19.5psi and higher, the car will use 100% load site. According to a log from the dyno, the car hit 100% at 3600rpm. What did the MAP psi column report at that point? Just 17.8psi. By 3800 rpm the MAP psi indicated 19.4.

The Utec isn't as precise an instrument as we'd like it to be. But it will enable more power than any other tuning hardware on the market :D

Anyway, the MAP psi reported by the Utec is relative. The dyno will show something else and your gauges will too. Absolute and gauge when tuning really doesn't impact the tuning. If you're having knock issues now, back off the boost until you can tune AFR. Once you can, just get it around 16.5psi using either method and dial in your AFR. Pull back timing if you get knock, then try to add timing once the boost and AFR is in line.

It doesn't matter to me, but if I were to choose absolute or gauge, I would use whichever one more closely agreed with my boost gauge.

I notice a "big" difference between my boost gauge and the UTEC gauge mode. The UTEC absolute mod is much more in line w/ my boost gauge. I'll need to hit the dyno again and tune A/F so boost and timing will be more "fun" and won't knock. ;)

Actually, the UTEC doesn't really lag behind. One log cycle takes about a fifth of a second, and during that time the boost and load site will change, perhaps drastically.

1. The UTEC seems to choose the highest load site reached during a single cycle to display in the log, but it doesn't seem to choose the highest boost seen in one site.

2. If the MAP basis is set to 19.5, like Si2's, it doesn't have to be over 19.5 or at 19.5 to be at 100. 90% would be about 17.5, and thus 18.5 could be expected to produce 100% load site functionality.

The UTEC functions MUCH, MUCH faster than the log does, making hundreds of calculations per second, versus about 5 log cycles per second.

The MAP in the UTEC is from the MAP sensor on the intake manifold, and thus is going to be about as accurate as it gets for most cars - much more accurate than a boost gauge.

Chu- I use gauge, but you can use whichever you like...

-Sean

Wouldn't it be "safer" to tune in colder weather because the we'd get a higher psi reading and volume of air; 16psi @ 60 degrees would be much different/concentrated than 16psi @ 30 degrees?

Originally posted by big_adventure

2. If the MAP basis is set to 19.5, like Si2's, it doesn't have to be over 19.5 or at 19.5 to be at 100. 90% would be about 17.5, and thus 18.5 could be expected to produce 100% load site functionality.



word.

Can we actuallt change the UTEC max boost limits from 19.5psi to say 17psi? Thus the UTEC would limit the BCS somehow to boost never goes above 17psi? I figure if you can remove the max boost limits then you should also be able to limit the max boost. I've been reading on you posts and just a curiosity thinking.

Not to be rude, but rtfm. ;)

Specifically, see the special constants section under the MAP min and max values.

1. Actually I've already read the manual more than once. Remember the majority of the ECU tuning arena is new to me so I ask alot of questions. The 3.1 Manual tells about the min and max values for the MAP however in "lamemen" terms what does that mean? So it's more of a reference point to tell thge UTEC to use "X" column when boost reach past "Y" value. If I have 17 in the max MAP value then when boost reaches 17psi the it'll use the 100% column.

2. If MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure then wouldn't "Absolute" mod in the UTEC work more in parallel w/ the boost gauge. The manual states tuning the boost w/ the ABC at 2 turns out however this will cause a much higher BCS value? Is having 100-133 normal for the BCS in CLB?

1. No, see three posts up. The 100% column covers all values greater than 90%. So for you, it is > 15.3 psi. You should make your own table based on 0 to 17 psi so that you can reference what each 10% increment means.

2. Assuming that you are referring to BCS value and not wastegate solenoid (WS) duty cycle. BCS value should be whatever gives you the target boost. If you are referring to WS, 133 is fine when you are building boost. A good target range once you are in the meat of the power band (>3250 rpm) is between 50 and 90 WS duty cycle.

I meant the WG duty cycle. It's currently between 80-100+/- from 3500-5500rpm+ and never reaching 133 at anytime. I assume from your remark that the WG should see near 133 during spooling however flatten out between 50-90 later.
According to the manual, the ABC should be 2 turns out ... then use the UTEC in CLB to adjust boost till the desired levels. I readjusted the ABC to 2 turns out and have the UTEC reading in gauge mode and now it's hitting 16-16.5psi in 40 degree temperature w/ a WG duty cycle averaging between 80-100.
I still really wish I had easy access to a dyno so I can tuen myself. :D

Yeah we made this a sticky!:D

How is the tuning coming?

It's going "ok." There definitely alot of variables to learn about especially since I'm new to all this tuning. I've been just focusing on trying to tune in CLB for boost.

Have you played with the gain settings for the boost controller yet? They help with spool some.

I could never get CLB to be as rock solid as Turbo Xs says it is. Every car is different though.

Thanks for your concern and ideas. Ironically I've been reading on another post I've made concerning the whole CLB tuning. What increment should I turn the gain "down" by to spool quicker? Would turning the CLB gain down produce more consistent boost levels?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=466461

Turning the CLB gain "down", to a lower number, will do nothing to promote stable boost - wuite the opposite, actually, as you will probabbly be much more prone to surges. Seriously, do you notice a spool problem now??? You're on the stock turbo - you basically CAN'T have a significant spool problem. In 3rd and up, you should be at full boost before 3K, and almost instantly after that rev point. I don't think you need to mess with the gain.

Let me repeat this in direct terms - adjusting the gain to a lower number will only make you surge - you are very, very unlikely to get significantly faster spoolup, and you will risk lots of nice 18+ psi moments on your untuned fuel map. 18psi of very hot inefficient air isn't really going to do you any good.

-Sean

I'm wondering how to make the boost more consistent? How about that "screw" on the turbo someone mentioned earlier to turn? Where is it located and how does the process work?

Search "wastegate flutter".

But that won't make it any more consistent. If you want really, truly consistent boost levels, try a really good MBC for ROCK SOLID consistency, albeit with one serious problem, OR a really good EBC, for neat things like gear-specific boost, and really nice management of boost. Check the SAFC, for example.

Basically, you're never, off the dyno, exposing your car to precisely the same loads, so you're never going to get 100%, rock-solid boost a the same levels. You are simply dealing with too many variables for everything to work to THAT level of precision.

Seriously, though, what are your goals here? You can tune to the absolute bleeding edge, but you will wind up bleeding. I will continue to recommend tuning to the slightly safe side. Are you having performance problems?

My recomendation to you would be to upgrade your fuel system and turbo. Go to used STi injectors, a walbro pump and a used vf30/34. You'll have VASTLY more power, a small penalty in spool-up and you'll be able to tune it much, much more safely.

You seem to be putting an awful lot of effort towards achieving a last 1% of power, yet you haven't tuned fuel yet, despite recomendations from dozens of folks to do that.

If you want to stick with the system you are running, do this:

1. TUNE FUEL!

2. Tune boost and timing out to let you run 16.5psi as an absolute MAX, with typical boosts more like 16psi max. Accept that sometimes, you won't see 16psi, more like 15.5. You'll have a setup that will keep your car running quickly, yet safely, since you will have plenty of resistance to surges and spikes. Label this map "safe", since it should be.

3. Set up another map at 17psi, if that's what you want. Run that for drag racing or when you really want to crush that tweeked out civic next to you at the light. Just switch over to your happy map for usual driving.

4. Remember that you are not going to be able to feel the difference between 16.5psi and 15.7 psi by the seat of your pants. But your knuckles and wallet will certainly feel an engine rebuild, which is what you will get with consistent det.

5. Remember also, turbo cars WILL knock sometimes. Once in a while, you'll see a 1 count, even with a pretty safe map. It's just the nature of the beast. As long as it's not consistent, don't panic on it.

6. Have fun!

-Sean

I'm trying to schedule a dyno time again so I can get the A/F worked out. I'm trying to also obtain as much info so when I do hit the dyno that I can be even more productive. I figured that I should be shooting for 16psi w/ a max of 16.5psi during surges. I trying to get as much info before making changes so I can do mroe things effectively and efficiently. I'm also debating for the A/F ... 11.0, 11.1, 11.2, 10.9, or 10.8 ... which is safer but yeilds the most power. My other concern the the boost, I figured CLB would solve boost changes relative to temperature however it doesn't seem like it so far and thus the reason why I'm asking my questions. :)

For AFR: Leaner makes more power, richer is safer. I'd probably tune to 11.0-1, on your gas. You CAN go leaner, but you risk a bad tank of gas making life a little less fun. On winter fuel, you should probably be running that way anyway. I don't think you're ever going to find one setting to solve all boost issues - like I said, there is just too much going on for that. What I would do is tune at your "usual" temp, than adjust the ABC slightly based on temps. Your boost map will be solid, and you'll just be adjusting around the temp that way.

Cool!

-Sean

I slowing getting to the same conclusion that boost will always fluctuate no matter what I try. I was "hoping" that there would be a magical fix however I can see that there's none. I was hoping that CLB would solve the need to adjust the ABC during temperature changes however I guess I'm wrong. I'm actually running lower boost or just not being as aggressive until I obtain the desired A/F but I wanted to see what I could do in the meantime.

Well, .5psi isn't really "fluctuating", at least not much. You could always go with a standalone wastegate, and get MUCH more precise boost - especially down low - but you don't really need to.

-Sean

I "thought" .5-1psi was "alot" of fluctuating but I guess I'm wrong. I'm just trying to get all the "facts" before I make a decision. Honestly I really don't care about a vacilitating boost value but I just wanted to make sure everyone else is experiencing the same issues. I know I "really" need to get the A/F right.

Frm a power perspective, losing a half pound of boost at around 16psi will perhaps cost you 0.5 % of total power output. In your setup, we're talking, worst case, a little over 1whp. You cannot see, feel or taste 1whp. Even on a well-calibrated chassis dyno, with your car perfectly tuned, you will fluctuate that much or a lot more between runs.

I thought a .5psi or even 1psi was a "huge" difference in power output? I'm not that anal about 2+\-whp but I just want to make sure I'm doing things right.

Well, assuming perfect fuel and timing, remember that what you are doing is pumping in more air to let you burn more fuel. Assuming 100% efficiency, 16psi of boost at sea level is a little more than 30psi of air (14.7 is ambient, remember). The flowed air volume difference between 29.5psi and 30psi, given equal turbochargers, is very slight. Now, my car makes a lot more power than yours at 16psi, because at that level, my car flows a lot more air. But for your car, there just isn't that much more air flowing at those points. Check your MAF values for confirmation.

There is a much bigger difference in a point of timing, especially with the stock turbo - it just CAN'T puch more than 17psi efficiently, and 16.5 is really the limit with the stock I/C. Sure, you could probably blow 18psi, but it would just be hot, weak air and make less power.

-Sean

Well I know I feel a "huge" difference between 14 and 16psi, it's technically only 2psi difference? Why is that? I also will try to hit 16psi w/ a max of 16.5psi on the stock turbo.

That's probably because your fuel is too rich for 14psi, and your timing is a little conservative for that. You can run leaner and slightly more advanced with less boost, to let it optimally combust. You can run 8psi at 14.7 afr all day long and feel some power, but if you run AFR at 10.5 at that boost, you will feel SLOOOOW - too much fuel for that amount of air.

-Sean

If A/F is adjusted to the desired ratio ie: 11.1:1 in 4th or 11:.2:1 in 3rd, would the A/F change if the boost was increased or decreased? Technically it takes longer to travel through an rpm range in 4th than 3rd thus the "idea" is that more fuel would be used?

It's got nothing to do what your boost is at or how long you are in a certain gear. Fuel, in open-loop fueling mode, is directly linked to MAF voltage. The MAF detects how much air is entering the car, and the ECU adds fuel, modified by the UTEC. You don't "set" the AFR in open-loop fueling, you set the MAF voltage modifier and the ECU does the rest. The ECU doesn't "set" it either. If the MAF sees 4 volts at 5000rpm, meaning X volume of air, the ECU fires the injectors a certain amount based on the enriched fueling map stored internally. The UTEC lets us adjust the voltage that the MAF sees, thus changing the injector duties that the ECU will fire at a given MAFxRPM.

As the load increases, the car will take in more air. Higher MAF at a given rev range = more fuel, and the maps are not linear. This is for two reasons:

First, the MAF detects airflow on a curve. 4v is not 33% more than 3v. I don't remember the equation off hand, but it's significantly more than 1:1.

Second, the car needs more fuel at higher airflow, regardless of what boost you are seeing. This is why my car is much faster than yours at the same boost levels on pump fuel - my turbo and thus my engine flows much more air and much more fuel.

-Sean

1. Thus back to the original question, tuning A/F will be fine even if I decrease/increase boost aftering tuning A/F, right? I'm planning on 2 approached ... if I can use the dyno again then I'll obviously tune in 4th for a A/F of 11.1. However if I can't I figured I'd tune on the road w/ a WB O2 in 3rd for a A/F of 11.2 thus should be lower then 11.2 once it hits 4th.

2. At what rpm should the A/F be the desired A/F of 11.1 ... 3000rpm-7000rpm?

I was pondering about another "issue" last night. When the temperature becomes hotter the air is less dense ie: 16psi @ 80 degree is less dense than 16psi @ 40 degrees. If the ECU is still trying to push the same X fuel amount, then the mixture will become richer at higher temperatures thus more prone to knock due to extra fuel plus the fact that the air is hotter. Is this another resonable assumption?

Big Adventure,

You are close but not entirely correct in how the UTEC interacts with the ecu as is relates to fueling. The UTEC in its current form alters the MAF signal entering the factory ecu and with this new voltage signal it determines the injector pulse width by referencing the factory fuel table. The UTEC pulses the fuel injectors based on the value given in the fuel table and NOT THE FACTORY ECU.

So in a nutshell the UTEC modifies the MAF signal to move around the factory fuel table and then UTEC fires the injectors. We will be offering complete stand alone fueling shortly.

Chuglobal,

Think of the factory fuel table as RPM vs Load with AFR as the values. As MAF voltage increases or decreases the AFR stays the same but the injector pulse width DOES change. So, more or less fuel is being delivered to keep the desired AFR even though more or less air is entering the engine. This is very much a simplified explanation and there are times when this does not hold true. This is one of the benefits of using a properly designed MAF based system.

Thanks,
Phil
TurboXS

Thus A/F will NOT change w/ increased or decreased boost once tuned?

Chuglobal,

"As MAF voltage increases or decreases the AFR stays the same but....."

You don't comprehend very well so I guess that's why this thread is 10 pages long ;)

Phil
TurboXS

1. No, actually I just like to ask alot fo questions.

2. Tomorrow is my tuning day ... correct A/F and everything else here I come. :D

Fuel Map
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2] [-0.2]
[0] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5] [-0.5]
[0] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8]
[0] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2]
[0] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2] [-2]
[0] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8]
[0] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8]
[0] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8] [-1.8]
[0] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6]
[0] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6]
[0] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6]
[0] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6] [-1.6]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]

Timing Map
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [35] [35] [35] [35] [35] [35] [35]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [35] [35] [35] [35] [35] [35] [35]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30] [30]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [28] [28] [28] [28] [28] [28] [28]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [19] [19] [19] [19] [19] [19] [19]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [18] [18] [18] [18] [18] [18] [18]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [18] [18] [18] [17] [17] [17] [17]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [18] [18] [18] [17] [17] [17] [17]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [19] [19] [19] [19] [19] [19] [19]
[19] [-100] [-100] [-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[19] [-100] [-100] [-100] [21] [21] [21] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[20] [-100] [-100] [-100] [22] [22] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[20] [-100] [-100] [-100] [23] [23] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[20] [-100] [-100] [-100] [23] [23] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[20] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[20] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
[21] [-100] [-100] [-100] [24] [24] [23] [22] [22] [22] [22]
[22] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [24] [23] [23] [23] [23]
[23] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [24] [24] [24] [24] [24]
[24] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[24] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[24] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25] [25]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [-100]

Boost Map
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [370] [370] [370] [370]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [370] [370] [370] [370]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [370] [370] [370] [370]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [370] [370] [370] [370]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [370] [370] [370] [370]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [370] [370] [370] [370]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [355] [355] [355] [355]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [355] [355] [355] [355]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [350] [350] [350] [350]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [340] [340] [340] [340]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [330] [330] [330] [330]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [300] [300] [300] [300]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [315] [315] [315] [315]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [315] [315] [315] [315]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [305] [305] [305] [305]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [325] [325] [325] [325]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [340] [340] [340] [340]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [350] [350] [350] [350]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [365] [365] [365] [365]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0]

1. I finally got to use a WB O2 sensor today and got my A/F to 11:1 in 4th ... technically 11.1-10.9. My car was running way too rich ... it was so bad w/ the Stage 2 base map that the WB 02 sensor could not even measure it.
2. I posted the whole map above ... my questions is why I still had to pull timing? Boost was the CLB values above w/ the ABC @ 4.5 turns out pushing 16-16.5psi. The wastegate duty cycle as 90+\- as TurboXs suggested. Is it because we're tuning in 45 degree weather?

1. Anyone know why I'm still knocking even after my A/F is at 11:1 in 4th now? I'm assuming it's due to the colder weather? At least it's nice to know my A/F is right now.

2. I've been playing around w/ the timing and boost values now. I'm now focusing on the boost as I would like to get a consistent boost level at all temperatures; thus all I would need to do is to adjust the ABC depending on temperature fluctuations.

3. I would like to mount the ABC inside the cabin, so does the length of the hose from the "Y" splitter to the ABC matter in slower response time or lower boost level control?

5546 +14.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +20.4 86.0 +21.1 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5564 +15.1 4.2 101 90 00 rich +20.3 87.0 +21.2 -1.8 350.00 4.2
5611 +15.7 4.2 101 90 00 rich +20.2 87.0 +21.4 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5640 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +20.7 87.0 +21.6 -1.8 350.00 4.2
5668 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +20.8 86.0 +21.5 -1.8 350.00 4.2
5649 +14.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich +20.8 87.0 +21.4 -1.8 350.00 4.2
5688 +14.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich +21.0 87.0 +21.8 -1.8 350.00 4.2
5717 +14.7 4.3 101 80 00 rich +20.9 87.0 +21.7 -1.8 350.00 4.2
5757 +13.9 4.2 101 80 00 rich +20.9 87.0 +21.9 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5837 +14.5 4.3 101 70 00 rich +21.4 88.0 +22.4 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5807 +14.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich +21.5 87.0 +22.3 -1.8 360.00 4.1
5837 +13.9 4.3 101 80 00 rich +21.3 88.0 +22.3 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5837 +14.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich +21.5 88.0 +22.7 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5817 +14.3 4.3 101 80 00 rich +22.2 87.0 +22.1 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5910 +14.7 4.3 101 80 00 rich +20.5 88.0 +22.6 -1.8 360.00 4.2
6184 +14.5 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.5 88.0 +22.5 -1.7 375.00 4.2
5973 +14.1 4.3 101 70 00 rich +20.6 87.0 +23.1 -1.7 375.00 4.2
6105 +14.3 4.3 101 80 00 rich +16.1 88.0 +23.4 -1.7 375.00 4.2
5777 +12.7 3.5 0 00 02 rich +8.7 28.0 +13.3 +0.0 ECU. 2.2
5889 +7.0 2.0 0 00 00 14.7 +10.8 28.0 +13.6 +0.0 ECU. 2.1

5592 +15.5 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.5 87.0 +21.4 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5564 +15.5 4.2 101 90 00 rich +19.5 86.0 +21.2 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5737 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.5 87.0 +21.5 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5688 +15.7 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.5 87.0 +21.7 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5737 +15.1 4.3 101 80 00 rich +19.5 87.0 +21.8 -1.8 350.00 4.1
5737 +15.1 4.2 101 80 00 rich +19.5 87.0 +22.0 -1.8 360.00 4.1
5878 +15.3 4.3 101 80 00 rich +20.2 88.0 +22.1 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5707 +14.5 4.3 101 80 00 rich +19.5 87.0 +21.9 -1.8 360.00 4.1
5837 +14.9 4.3 101 80 00 rich +20.4 86.0 +22.4 -1.8 360.00 4.1
5817 +14.3 4.3 101 80 00 rich +21.2 88.0 +23.2 -1.7 360.00 4.2
5817 +13.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich +21.8 87.0 +22.7 -1.8 360.00 4.1
5827 +14.3 4.3 101 80 00 rich +19.4 88.0 +22.6 -1.8 360.00 4.2
6016 +13.9 4.3 101 80 07 rich +15.2 87.0 +14.5 -1.8 360.00 4.2
5984 +13.7 4.3 101 70 00 rich +15.1 63.0 +14.8 -1.8 360.00 4.2

You'll notice a knock count of "2" on the firt run @ 5777 rpm right when I get off the throttle, why does this happen? You'll also notice a knock count of "7" on the second run @ 6016rpm ... the timing seems fine however a knock occurred? I'm wondering if I'm running too much timing at 5750rpm UTEC rpm range for the temperature since it was in the 30s this morning? I pulled a degree at 6000rpm so the "flow" of timing is still smooth. However if I pull a degree at 5750 I'll be pulling a degree from 5750-7000rpm and I would like to run as much timing as possible.

6184 +12.5 4.3 101 70 00 rich +24.2 88.0 +23.7 -1.6 375.00 4.2
6325 +12.9 4.3 101 70 00 rich +26.9 88.0 +24.7 -1.6 375.00 4.2
6680 +12.7 4.3 101 70 00 rich +27.4 88.0 +25.0 -1.6 375.00 4.2
6734 +13.1 4.3 101 70 00 rich +28.1 87.0 +25.0 -1.6 375.00 4.2
6693 +13.3 4.3 101 70 00 rich +28.9 88.0 +25.0 -1.6 375.00 4.1
6973 +11.5 3.2 0 00 00 rich +10.2 33.0 +24.0 +0.0 ECU. 2.1
6680 +5.5 2.0 0 00 00 15.2 +10.2 33.0 +24.0 +0.0 ECU. 2.1
6127 -0.8 2.2 0 00 00 lean +10.6 33.0 +22.4 +0.0 ECU. 2.2
5698 -5.5 3.6 51 00 00 lean +33.7 42.0 +20.4 +0.0 ECU. 3.8
5518 -5.5 4.1 98 10 00 rich +22.7 81.0 +24.0 -1.8 330.00 4.1
4997 +0.0 4.2 101 50 06 rich +12.8 84.0 +14.8 -2.0 330.00 4.1
5065 +7.0 4.2 101 80 06 rich +13.6 85.0 +13.0 -2.0 305.00 4.0
5136 +12.7 4.2 101 90 00 rich +14.4 83.0 +13.0 -2.0 305.00 4.1

I accidentally "slipped" the clutch in the 2nd-3rd shift and it caused knock. Why did it happen?

Phil,

I know about the upcoming fueling - I've been using it since the beginning. :D I'm the one who brought the 04 issues to you guys, after all.

I figured that the UTEC must actually be firing the injectors before, given the wiring, but since it's directly based on the ECUs response to the modified MAF piped by the UTEC, I just didn't want to explain any more deeply than I've already had to here. Same results, just an extra step.

Thanks though.

Chu, glad to see that you have your fueling worked out. As for your dual 6-counts in that last post, look back, way back, in this unabriged version of War and Peace and you'll see where we discuss about clutch noises and such. The knock sensor doesn't detect "knock", it detects noise. If you cause the clutch or transmission to shudder badly, it can show up as knock on the sensor. The sensor is mounted very close to the transmission on the engine, after all, and it's not like there are damping layers between the tranny case and engine block.

However, you should pull what timing you have to pull until you get rid of consistent knock. Notice that you are running a fair amount more timing than the ECU wants to run before you knock. You might want to try pulling back a point in the range up to that. At least until you get rid of knock. Then bump boost to where you want it and play with timing from there.

-Sean