1. Does having a wideband O2 sensor mounted in a catless uppipe cause false readings due to higher temperature and pressure? Would the reading be to lean thus in real life the A/F mixture still be too rich?
2. Is there a PNP wideband O2 sensor for the UTEC? I heard TurboXs was coming out w/ one specifically for the UTEC but it might just be a rumor.
3. Can adding too much fuel cause knock? Would the ECU generate some weird calculations due to the increase in fuel from the base Stage 2 map + increase in timing to cause knock?
4. What is the timing advanced most people are seeing as compared to the base Stage 2 map? They range in the low 20s but I heard some people got it up to 28+/- w/ no knock.
5. Are most people running negative fuel variables once the car is tunned for a learner A/F mixture? What is the A/F mixture in which people are targeting for ... 11.2:1, 10:2, 12:2:1, etc?
6. Has anyone used the extra downloadable software for the UTEC to log whp and ft/lbs on the road and not at a real dyno? Are the reading pretty accurate?

These factors are all assuming tuning in mid 50s w/ a mean target of 16.5psi max in 4th gear. Anyone w/ real world insight would really be appreciated. Thanks. :D

I believe that mounting an wideband in the upipe would indeed cause mis-reasings because it should see positive boost pressure. The best place is right where the stock 02sensor is in the exhuast, hopefully whatever aftermarket exhuast you have still has that bung in it. You can just turn the CEL off with the UTEC then..

In my stock turbo/intercooler/fuelsystem rex, i run the ignition advance up to around 26 degrees peak, although I can run 27 degrees in certain areas without knock sometimes. But if it's hot out etc. I usually switch to the map with 26degrees peak and lower boost. On my most aggressive ignition map I'm already running 25degrees at around 4,500rpms and at 5,000 rpms I go to 26, and then between 5,500-6,200rpms I'm at 27, then back to 26degrees. I normally run a peak boost of 16psi, down to 14.5psi at 6krpms, and by redline maybe 12-13psi.

As for the fuel values, I have fuel values between -1.5 to -2.8 on my most aggressive map, I have no idea what the a/f ratio is I only used EGTs to help me. I would guess to say it's as lean as 11:1, maybe leaner. But as long as I don't get detonation I don't stress about it.

Also, yes adding too much fuel can induce knock definatly. And turboxs has not released the WB02 reader yet, I think it's going to be priced around $400-$500 though according to the "rumors", but a better choice compared to other widebands if it does work with the UTEC IMO.

1. There are 2x O2 sensors stock, one in the exhaust manifold and one right before the 3rd Cat. How would the part between the exhaust manifold to uppipe see positive boost pressure? The Vishnu catless uppipe has a bung for a wideband O2 sensor, I would deduct that they put it there for a reason?
2. How does running too rich cause knock? Do you have a "theory," I just heard that it through the "grapevine."
3. Humm I thought the wideband O2 kit for the UTEC from TurobXs would be a little cheaper in the $300+/- range. :(
4. What is a good practical procedure in tunning: boost ( obtain desired boost level ) > timing ( reduce knock if necessary ) > A/F ( decrease for optimal performance but no too lean ) > timing ( advance as much as possible w/ out knock and watch A/F change )?
5. Does changing timing ( advance/pull ) cause a change in A/F ratio?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. There are 2x O2 sensors stock, one in the exhaust manifold and one right before the 3rd Cat. How would the part between the exhaust manifold to uppipe see positive boost pressure? The Vishnu catless uppipe has a bung for a wideband O2 sensor, I would deduct that they put it there for a reason?
2. How does running too rich cause knock? Do you have a "theory," I just heard that it through the "grapevine."
3. Humm I thought the wideband O2 kit for the UTEC from TurobXs would be a little cheaper in the $300+/- range. :(
4. What is a good practical procedure in tunning: boost ( obtain desired boost level ) > timing ( reduce knock if necessary ) > A/F ( decrease for optimal performance but no too lean ) > timing ( advance as much as possible w/ out knock and watch A/F change )?
5. Does changing timing ( advance/pull ) cause a change in A/F ratio?

Yeah there are two 02 sensors right, the ghetto wideband one in the exhuast manifold reads incorrectly because it is subjected to boost pressure, the reason why the UTEC logger just says rich after about 12:1. If you mount an wideband sensor in the upipe, thats just downstream from the exhuast manifold so the same thing would happen IMO. It has to be after the exhuast comes out of the exhuast side of the turbo like where the 2nd 02 sensor is by the 3rd cat.

I don't know why adding too much fuel can cause knock enough to explain it technically.

I've never had the chance to tune with an wideband so I don't know if it causes a change in the a/f ratio. I know it can cause a change in the EGT reading though, but I think that the a/f ratio stays the same. (which can make tuning with EGTs decieving sometimes)

1. Then why would Vishnu add a bung for a wideband O2 sensor in the uppipe. I don't think they'd have that type of reasoning? Vishnu or TurboXs do you guys have any comments?

2. Can anyone explain why too much fuel may cause knock in "lamemen" terms?

3. Anyone else have physical experience in the change on the A/F when the timing is changed?

4. Does calibrating the TPS make that much of a difference? What is the default and what is the goal?

5. I was reading on another post, does copying the 50% load column to the 10% load column really help reduce knocks during shifts or transition states?

6. Is there somewhere in the UTEC parameters to say ... I want 16.5psi so the boost values are a percentage of that; ie: if I'm at 80% and the specific value is 16.5 then I would get 13.2psi? Is that more close loop boost control rather than open loop?

I was also under the impression that the best place for a wide band was in the downpipe (i.e. weld in a bung, or whatever).

1. That would make sense too however I really would like to know the justification manufacturers use to design their products for the location for a WB O2 sensor.
2. TurboXs, Vishnu, etc have any factual ideas to add?
3. Why does humidity make such a huge difference? It seems like the ECU has a slow transition from open to close loop during high humidity weather thus causing knock to occur?

Everything that I've heard from different tuner points to welding bung 12-18 inches after the turbo in the downpipe. This is where there is optimal temperature for the O2 sensor. It therefore will give the most accurate readings. You don't want to tune for leaner than 11:1 on pump gas. I run 10.6:1 just to be on the safe side. If your tuning for race fuel you can often tune for 12:1.

Too much fuel can cause knock. I forget the exact reason why but I remember it being discussed.

You absolutely want to calibrate TPS so that your Utec operates correctly. Just read your instructions, it's really easy. If you go slightly over 100% it is okay, but you want to at least hit 100% at WOT.

New question #6: Boost control doesn't work like that for any type of boost controller that I know of.

1. Why is the world would some "high" tunning manufactuers have a WB O2 bung in the uppipe? I figure it would also be best in the downpipe.
2. I should start tweaking the UTEC TPS, I just haven't had too much time to read up on it. I think I shall do it this weekend.
3. I heard the EBC controls the boost much more effectively as compared to the MBC and definitely the ABC. Does an EBC help w/ boost control in aftermarket ECU in a huge manner or just a perception?

Originally posted by chuglobal


2. Can anyone explain why too much fuel may cause knock in "lamemen" terms?



hehe, lame men
I read this definition in another post: Knock/Detonation is the spontaneous combustion of the end-gas (remaining fuel/air mixture) in the chamber. This occurs after the spark.
So, if you are running too rich then there would be even more "end gas" to ignite, which would make the possibility of detonation higher or more severe.

That's actually quite interesting, I always "thought" that knock was due to the original A/F mixture combusting before the planned timing not the remaining A/F mixture left after the first combustion cycle takes place. Humm, I guess that why people have to "tune" their cars, not only are you trying to run "leaner" than factory specs to gain the most optimal hp w/out melting the engine, but also not too rich to have extra fuel left over after the first combustion cycle. Won't people who say "add extra fuel" when knock occurs because adding the more fuel to cause more knock?

Allright,
In lame men's terms.
There are multiple factors working to create/prevent knock. But, knock is most influenced by intake charge temperature. So, if you increase boost, or it's a real hot day, the odds of knock occuring are higher. Dumping in more and more fuel (richer mixture) helps to cool the intake charge from the fuel vaporizing in the charge. This works up to a point, since when you add fuel, you are essentially adding more and more points in the combustion chamber for knock to begin from (increasing the odds of knock). This factor isn't quite as strong as the intake temperature though, so it comes in later. Research by Ricardo in the 30's with a non-intercooled supercharged engine suggests that you can keep adding boost, by using more fuel to prevent knock up to about 9:1 afr, and then after that he saw that more fuel actually caused more knock. Usually if you are running 9:1 afr, your car will reek of gasoline at and your oil will smell like it too. Taking this a bit further, this is why water injection works well. Since it only cools the charge and doesn't add more sites for knock.
That's my 2cents.

And I always thought the extra bung in the uppipes was for aftermarket EGT sensors, which is the wrong place for that too.

1. Thanks for the responses. Basicaly wat I'm seeing is what I suspected after the post before my last one; adding fuel "cools" combustion chamber but too much adding to the factor that fuel remains that "could" cause knock before the next planned combustion cycle.
2. Most people agree that you want the EGT sensor as close to the engine, exhaust manifold, to obtain the most accurate readings. It seems like many aftermarket uppipes have two bungs, one for the factory EGT and the other was for the WB O2, at least this is what I thought it was for until many people shared the idea that the pressure before the turbo causes false readings. I've looked at some aftermarket downpipe manufacturers which inlcude a bung for the WB O2 sensor. I haven't literally looked recently but I remember seeing some a while back.
3. I finally changed the TPS to 100, it was at 99% w/ the default setting of 4.0. I changed it to 3.9 and now I have 103% when at WOT. Many people have stated that it's ok to be a "little" above 100% so I'm fine w/ the results.
4. I noticed the safety measures in the UTEC for coolant and air temp correction are set to 100C by default which is 212F? Isn't that like a little high for air temperature correction? Should it be like 100F, I'm assuming the air temp is the ambiant temperature of the outside. Basically what I want is that when it's say ... 90F+ degrees outside I want the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole map to prevent knock caused my higher heated air. Would I change the default air correction = 32.2C and timing correction = -1? I know how heat kills the fun out of FI cars, I just want to be safe in 90+ humid weather. I also assume the MAF senses correct outside temperature, so if the outside temperature is 90F then by the time the air hits the MAF it should still be around 90F or is it hotter?
5. When I "cruise" at say 1st or even 2nd gear at any rpms between 3-5 and suddenly go WOT, sometimes I get knock. I happens less in cold dry days and definitely more often in hot humid days. It seems like the car's ECU is on a vacation and not responding fast enough. I've read to copy the timing from the 50% load column and paste into the 10% columns, does it really work? Wouldn't the ECU still be "confused" since you're going from the control of the ECU > UTEC > ECU "very" quickly?

I've had good results building maps starting with 50% column and sometimes 40%.

Regarding temp correction... I've found that ECT isn't very crictal and can be set to 92C. IAT of 42C showed promise. I say that because correction due to heat offered little consistancy on my car as far as added knock resistance. It's important to remember how to input the correction values for fuel and timing. They *should* both be positive numbers. A positive fuel value will add fuel. A positive timing value will retard timing.

Most recently, I've been experimenting with an 'inverse correction' method. I won't get into it on this thread.

Originally posted by chuglobal

5. When I "cruise" at say 1st or even 2nd gear at any rpms between 3-5 and suddenly go WOT, sometimes I get knock. I happens less in cold dry days and definitely more often in hot humid days. It seems like the car's ECU is on a vacation and not responding fast enough. I've read to copy the timing from the 50% load column and paste into the 10% columns, does it really work? Wouldn't the ECU still be "confused" since you're going from the control of the ECU > UTEC > ECU "very" quickly? [/B]

I would really like to know this as well, its been happening to me on my more aggressive maps while runinng the 1/4

1. I figured IAT correction would be more "promising" however wasn't sure. Does the MAF sensor detect true outside air temperature or is it higher since it's in the engine bay? If you have it set to 42C then it's 107F+, would it be safer to do 33C thus 90F+ or is that being way too conservative? I guess the first part of the questions will lead into the answers for the second part.
2. I'm glad you reminded me about the correction factor, I would have adjusted the correction to -1 thinking it'd pull timing when it should be +1 to pull 1 degree of timing once the MAF reads a certain IAT.
3. Does copying the 50% column really help solve the "knock during change" issue? Why not use the 40% column instead? Would you copy the 50% to 10% column?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. Then why would Vishnu add a bung for a wideband O2 sensor in the uppipe. I don't think they'd have that type of reasoning? Vishnu or TurboXs do you guys have any comments?


Under most circumstances you want the O2 sensor in a low pressure environment that does not exceed 600 to 700 degrees C. unless you have a pressure compensated O2 sensor. Jon in CT posted a nice write up about this about a year ago if I remember correctly.

As for why Vishnu put their O2 bung in the up-pipe... you'll have to ask them.



Originally posted by chuglobal

4. Does calibrating the TPS make that much of a difference? What is the default and what is the goal?

No

Originally posted by chuglobal
[B]5. I was reading on another post, does copying the 50% load column to the 10% load column really help reduce knocks during shifts or transition states?

Yes, see the stg2new map and the stg4fmic map. We'll be releasing a stg4new map very soon. Basically on a well running UTEC car the stock ECU is going to be far too aggressive on its ignition timing and as a result you'll knock when the UTEC runs into those load sites.



Originally posted by chuglobal
[B]6. Is there somewhere in the UTEC parameters to say ... I want 16.5psi so the boost values are a percentage of that; ie: if I'm at 80% and the specific value is 16.5 then I would get 13.2psi?

No

1. The MAF sensor does NOT detect outside temperature. I checked weather channel and it's 70F+/- however the IAT was 42C+/- thus 107F which is a 37F+/- difference. I assume this is caused by the heat soak or other engine energy functions?

2. I changed my parameter for IAT correction at 45C w/ timing correction at +1 ... this should basically tell the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole board once IAT is 45C+. My goal is to pull timing when outside temperature is 85+ which I'll need to figure what the IAT would be, I'll need to look at the dashboard one day in the future.

3. I have also copied the 50% column in the timing to the 10% column, I'll need to do some aggressive driving and see what happens. I just think it's weird to have the ECU @ 0% > UTEC @ 10% > ECU @ 20%-30% > UTEC @ 40%-100%. I would think it would be more rough to switch between ECU > UTEC > ECU > UTEC?


* 4. I upgraded from version 2.5B to 3.1 last Friday and reloaded my current map; everything went as planned according to the manual instructions. However after the upgrade the stock ECU is using a "safer" map thus richer. I suddenly got knock again where it use to be fine. I'm testing the theory that my knocks are due to "extra" fuel because I always get worse gas mileage after a ECU reset and knock started to occur again. The only variable change is the extra fuel being "dumped" into the engine. Why did the ECu switch to a safer map? I didn't disconnect the battery at first but I did later, it shouldn't have switched maps right? Has anyone else seen the extra fuel problem causing knock?

3. You should look at the "stage 2 new" (http://www.turboxs.com/_images/UTEC/stg2new.txt) map again. The UTEC takes over the timing from 10% all the way up. What Nathan was describing was copying the 50% site all the way (inclusive) down to 10%.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chuglobal
[B]

2. I changed my parameter for IAT correction at 45C w/ timing correction at +1 ... this should basically tell the UTEC to pull 1 degree of timing across the whole board once IAT is 45C+.

If the timing correction is +1 wouldn't add one degree?

No...

Positive timing correction actually retards timing. Negative timing will add timing.

:lol: :confused:

Originally posted by Si2WRX
No...

Positive timing correction actually retards timing. Negative timing will add timing.

:lol: :confused:

oh ok, thats silly though:p

1. I've been looking at dyno / custom tunned Stage 2 maps recently online. The optimistic part is that I see how much more aggressive the Stage 2 can be as compared to what I'm running now. Plus the factor that the fuel becomes negative which means better gas mileage along w/ more power because the mixture is more lean.

2. I "think" the majority of recent knocks were due to the "safe" map which was caused by the extra fuel in the combustion equations. I have a good feeling that once I get the A/F to the desired ratios, I can run more timing along w/ a knock free or minimum knock situations.

3. Where can I get a O2 sensor bung welded in Marietta/Atlanta area who doesn't care about exhaust mods? How much would it costs and how long would it take? Does it matter where on the DP the O2 sensor is placed or just somewhere as close to the part after the turbo?

3. Does anyone have a WB O2 sensor that's PNP the the UTEC now?

4. If you have access to a dyno, how long would it take to go through each matrix point and tune ... ie: hold at 1.5Krpm and slowly go through each load pt and go till 7K?

5. Can you make adjustments to the UTEC while on the throttle during tunning? I thought the engine should always be at idle before saving/changing maps?

1. Stg 2 has a lot of potential and can be leaned out a bit.

4. Shouldn't take too long on a dyno. An initial approach for fuel tuning... I would set the boost to near-stock level. Do a pull and log AFR and logger #1 on the Utec. The base Stg 2 map is a great starting point. Using the data from the AFR log, manipulate the values in the fuel map as needed. Raise the boost one psi and repeat. Keep working up to 16.5psi tweaking the columns as needed.

5. No? I don't completely understand what you're saying...

Question for you... where's a dyno you can tune on? Maybe we can talk SoG into letting me tune your car on their dyno :devil:

Erik

5. Can you make adjustments to the UTEC while on the throttle during tunning? I thought the engine should always be at idle before saving/changing maps?
Yes, although I'd recommend you get someone else to do the tuning while you're driving or vice versa. :p And yes, the engine should be at idle before saving (not changing) maps. You could disengage the clutch while driving, let the rpms drop to idle, save and then resume driving but this is extremely dangerous. Do yourself and your fellow motorists a favor and stop before trying to make any adjustments. ;)

I don't think there are any ECUs and/or software out there that allow you to change your maps on the fly....

Tune safely!

Cheers!

Yes you can make adjustments, but they would go into effect until you save the map. Like Chi said you can save them while your driving but the car needs to be in neutral and at a low rpm.

1. I figured there should be 0 load w/ the clutch disengaged when making changes to the UTEC just as if we would on the road. Yes I'd plan on having more than just myself around while tunning.

2. Would it create more power and be safer if I copied the 50% column to 10-40% instead of having the ECU control the timing? This is assuming I can dyno everything too.

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. I figured there should be 0 load w/ the clutch disengaged when making changes to the UTEC just as if we would on the road. Yes I'd plan on having more than just myself around while tunning.

2. Would it create more power and be safer if I copied the 50% column to 10-40% instead of having the ECU control the timing? This is assuming I can dyno everything too.

My car felt better after i tweaked the lower MLP in the ignition map. I didn't just use the 50% column though..

My map has higher numbers in the low/midrange rpms in the lower % columns, and as it goes up in the % columns from 20%->100% i start reducing the ign. timing in the spoolup area to 20deg. at it's lowest point up until 4k rpms IIRC- and then I start adding timing back in, by 4,500 i'm at 24, and at 5,000rpms i'm at 25deg. and finally peaks at 26 degrees from 5,500-redline. I can post up my ign. map tomorrow if you want, or just email it to you so you can see as explaining it sounds much more complicated than it is or looks:lol:

1. Negative: The dyno session did NOT go as planned; I'm not pleased w/ the outcome as I wasted not only my time but the time of two other people. We reset a code because we "all" thought that the ECU would be fine however it actually reset the whole ECU so we could not do any tunning. The ECU went into safe mode thus ran real rich ... 10+/1. Basically we got "0" real tunning things accomplished; the majority of the changes were a shot in the dark which is not meaningful and I still got knock driving back home. :(

2. Positive: I'm putting down 218 whp & 200 ft/lbs in 78F+ degrees @ 14.3psi+/-. These numbers are from a base Stage 2 map w/ no UTEC tunning. Thus when I drive on the roads w/ 50F+ degrees I'm sure I'll be putting more down. I did learn how to read some of the info presented from a dyno however I couldn't put anything to use today. Finally, I really appreciate the help of Jason and Erik; I know none of us were happy w/ the outcome but there's always a next time. Thanks guys. :)

1. If you tune A/F in 3rd on the road rather than 4th, doesn't the A/F get "leaner" once you hit 4th due to higher load which yields more boost? Thus if I wanted 11.2/1 in 4th I should shoot for 11/1 in 3rd and it should balance out?

2. If I'm trying to shoot for an optimal A/F of 11.2/1, can't I use the factory O2 sensor to tune since the factory O2 sensor should still be within it's safety margin which it "can" measure. If I log all the runs after I make adjustments to the "Fueling Variables" can't I keep making changes till the reading from the UTEC go from either rich and/or learn to the 11.2/1?

3. We all know that resetting the ECU causes a period of delay in power because the ECU is in "safe" mod. Can't we also create a "safe" mod map in the UTEC to on purposely be more aggressive so if you ever get into a "race" right after resetting the ECU you'll still have power. Once the ECU switches back to its "aggressive" map you can switch back to the standard map.

1. Originally I thought this was the case, however it is not. If you tune for 11.2:1 in 3rd, you will actually be slightly more rich in 4th.

2. The factory O2 doesn't have the ability to read that low. The Utec indicates 'rich' once the AFR passes around 12:1. I believe that to be its lowest useable output.

3. You could. This would basically require pulling more fuel. The problem is you wouldn't know when the ecu switched 'aggressive' and if you were running this newly created map, you'd go very lean.

1. How would it be more rich in 4th; I assume more boost = more air thus leaner A/F mixture?

2. You're right, I thought I saw 11.x somewhere but I was looking at something else. I did a run this morning in 3rd and the lowest was around 12.4. I guess that's why you'd need the WB O2 sensor to go that low ( rich ).

3. True, I just wish there was a factual equation on why/when the ECU switches.

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. How would it be more rich in 4th; I assume more boost = more air thus leaner A/F mixture?

2. You're right, I thought I saw 11.x somewhere but I was looking at something else. I did a run this morning in 3rd and the lowest was around 12.4. I guess that's why you'd need the WB O2 sensor to go that low ( rich ).

3. True, I just wish there was a factual equation on why/when the ECU switches.

1. You forget we have a raising rate fuel pressure regulator. When boost goes up so does pressure. However the injectors still open for the same length of time so more fuel comes out with each opening.

2. The factory ECU has algorithms for the O2 but the Utec doesn't so it just reads rich below ~12:1 afr. A wideband is necessary to tune correctly.

3. It's not that the factory ECU switches maps. It changes it's maps. The only maps that the ECU can switch to is low or high det. Which is why if you reset your ECU you don't want to do any tuning until the car has learned and adjusted.

I suspect the reason why it's more rich in 4th versus lower gears is more a function of how long it takes for the fuel to get into the engine. Starting in 1st gear, each subsequent gear should indicate more rich than the last. 1st is much shorter, the fuel can't get in as quickly, thus it will indicate a leaner mixture than 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. The engine will accelerate slower the faster you go and will enable more fuel to enter the chambers.

Boost will lean it out also, but there's an interesting side effect to that as well. It is harder to reach peak boost in shorter gears. 1st and 2nd in most cases will not peak as high as 3rd, 4th, etc. There's also a rising rate fpr, so the fuel tends to remain balanced to some degree. While 4th has a tendancy to run higher boost, it will also have enough fuel. Lower boost will not require as much fuel.

It's all dependant on the tuning, but usually this is the case and if you tune in 3rd or 4th the rest of the gears are pretty safe.

I see I've echo'd what mbiker97 posted the same time I did :p

1. "Rising Rate" Fuel Regulator means that at higher rpms the injectors are open the same amount however due to the increased pressure, more fuel is "pushed" out? Is there a "Constant Rate" Fuel Regulator which would mean at higher rpms it gets leaner because the injectors close and open rather than stay open?

2. Yeah, I'll need a WB 02 sensor for even street tunning. Humm, I should shoot for 11.5 in 3rd and maybe in reality be 11.2 once in 4th. I wish I had a dyno at home to play w/.

3. Is there a way to force the ECU to use it's aggressive map after a ECU reset instead of waiting a long time before you can tune again?

1. You could get a constant rate FPR, I think they about $300 though. They is someone around here that runs 100psi but I don't know his setup exactly since I think he's a jagoff (talks to much poop).

2. Luckily I have a Horiba (sp?) dyno test cell quality wideband available to me. I don't need it anymore though thanks to the ECUtek.

3. They only way to force the ECU to go aggressive quickly is get a reflash. I have my multiplier set at 16 (instead of the stock 8) for learning. You can also change the amount of miles reguired for the ECU to relearn.

Originally posted by chuglobal
3. Is there a way to force the ECU to use it's aggressive map after a ECU reset instead of waiting a long time before you can tune again?

Do a search for Shiv's quick ECU teach trick, or something along those lines.

Basically you keep the car at 2500 rpm's for 5 seconds while maintaining 2-5 psi boost.

I'm finding it even helps to advance the timing multiplier without resetting the ECU (if you've had knock).

I have found no correlation between the Shiv reset and the ecu switching back to it's aggressive map. The only way I've found to tell what mode the ecu is in is by using a wideband at WOT. The advance multipler (montiored by deltadash) jumps to 16 rapidly using the Shiv reset, however the ecu will still run super rich until its happy.

Out of curiosity, is this fact that you can adjust the mi needed for the ecu to go aggressive using ecutek?

Originally posted by Si2WRX
Out of curiosity, is this fact that you can adjust the mi needed for the ecu to go aggressive using ecutek?

Yes, it's fact. There is so much inbedded in the factory ECU it's rediculous. I just wish I had a dyno too so I could play with it more (ECUteck).

Can you comment on what the unflashed oem mileage is?

1. Where can you change the "multiplier?" What exactly is the multipler? I'm assuming the multiplier is "not" the samething as the mileage in which it takes the ECU to "relearn."

2. According to Shiv's trick, holding at 2500 rpms w/ 2-5psi, how many cycles do you need to do this?

3. Does the ECU really "lose" all of the learned settings when I reset the ECU? If the ECU has two maps, safe and aggressive, then we only have to worry about a total of two different maps.

4. What is the default mileage for a factory ECU to relearn?

By default, when you reset the ECU, the multiplier is set at 8. As you drive, it will go to 12 then 16 if the ECU likes what it's seeing. This impacts its partial throttle learned timing correction. It's not the same thing as the mileage thing.

Using DeltaDash, I've found the easiest way to do it is crusing at low speed in fifth and giving the car moderate throttle trying to accelerate from 2200rpm keeping boost around 4psi. This tends to raise the multiplier quickly.

So what is the "multiplier?"

The ECU reset totally resets all the learned parameters every time. That's why it's a reset.;) :D From the factory it is ~180 mi.

The multiplier is the ability of the ECU to learn. With a higher number the ECU learns more aggressively i.e. more timing.

So "multiplier" is the rate at which the ECU learns? Why do people just not change the ECU to learn as fast as possible? Do you have to have the ECUtek to change the multipier?

Originally posted by chuglobal
So "multiplier" is the rate at which the ECU learns? Why do people just not change the ECU to learn as fast as possible? Do you have to have the ECUtek to change the multipier?

Yes ECUteck, or maybe Cobb, is the only way to change it that I know of.

1. Interesting ... I was just reading Vishnu's theory on speed up the ECU learning process.

A. Warm up the car "then" reset the ECU.
B. Hold rpm between 2500-4000 / boost betwen 2-5psi for 5-10 second.

2. Why was it called the "multiplier" rate? I'm just trying to find out why things are called what so I can explain to people if necessary in the future.

Excellent reading: http://www.ecutek.com/tuning/ignition/

The Coarse Ignition Learning section details the multiplier.

You could reflash the ecu to a 16 multiplier by default, however this will not speed up when it switches to it's aggressive map. It will only impact the ecu's ignition learning.

Any of this have any impact on UTEC tuning:confused:

The multiplier is the speed as which the ECU "learns." Then if you try the "Vishnu Reset," it would only affect the rate at which the ECU learns but not to actually fool the ECU into switching to its more aggressive map sooner? So the car would still run "rich?" So this whole theory is another "catch 22" because the car will not run any faster sooner?

From the EcuTeK site:
The actual ignition timing used is the is a value from the base ignition map, plus a proportion of the ignition correction map (determined by the advance multiplier), plus a fine knock learning value from the above table.
So the advance multiplier is not the speed at which the ECU learns. It determines the amount of ignition correction advance that will be applied to the base ignition map. The higher the advance multiplier is, the more advance you will have. The reason for using the Vishnu Reset is because the ECU starts at a multiplier of "8" after a reset and takes it's time to reach a maximum of "16".. ie. if it ever gets there. The Vishnu Reset basically fools the ECU into jumping to it's maximum advance multiplier of "16".

There are 2 ignition correction maps besides the base ignition map. A high octane ignition map and a low octane ignition map. If you are running good gas along with the absence of knock, the ECU will happily advance your ignition using "a proportion of the ignition correction map (determined by the advance multiplier), plus a fine knock learning value". The fine knock learning value comes from a table which the ECU uses to store info regarding where knock as occurred in the past and uses this table to decrease your ignition timing where necessary.

Chuglobal, after doing the Vishnu Reset, your car should be in it's most aggressive mode.

I'm simplifying things a lot here. It's no wonder they patented this. I've never seen such an active ignition before...

Cheers!

1. So there a basically 3 main maps stored in the ECU: base, aggressive, and reserved. With a normal ECU reset, the ECU switches to the original base map w/ a multiplier of 8. The multiplier is used to take a "porportion" of the aggressive or reserved map and add it to the base map to give it an overall more aggressive calculation. The "Vishnu Reset" actually fools the ECU and tries to set the multiplier to 16 or as close as possible so the ECU will take a "larger" proportion of the aggressive map sooner. The ECU also inlcudes a table where past knock has occurred and applies less timing in those certain areas. Am I correct now?

2. Does the "aggressive" map include more timing and less fuel or just more timing?

3. How many cycles should I do of the 2500-4000rpm @ 2-5psi for 5-10 sec runs to finalize the "Vishnu Reset?"

1. You're almost correct on this. The "formula" is:
Base ignition map + proportion of the agressive map using the advance multiplier + reserved map. What you are refering to as the reserved map is actually the knock table.

2. The "aggressive" map = timing only. There are 2 separate maps for fuel; Lo Det Fuel Map and Hi Det Fuel Map. The engine runs on the Lo Det Fuel Map by default and when it detects excessive detonation, switches to the Hi Det Fuel Map.

3. One should be enough.

Some notes:
Base = Main Ignition Map
Aggressive = Ignition Correction Map
Reserved = Learned Ignition Correction Map

Thanks ... I theory was "close." ;) Also after holding the revs at the certain rpm for the "Vishnu Reset," do I go WOT till redline or do I let it go back to idle then turn off the car then restart the car and drive normally. Does any of it matter?

I suspect it starts on the hi-det map by default. The WRX clearly runs pig rich after a reset. As it's run, it switches maps to the low-det (slightly leaner) map.

No, it starts off with the low-det map. :)

IMHO, the stock low-det map is pig rich already. When it switches to the hi-det map, it basically drowns the engine. :eek:

chuglobal, after the Vishnu Reset, just drive normally.

1. Is there a way to make the ECU run leaner "quicker?" I know the majority of my knocks were due to too much fuel because I ran a test and the only variable was the way extra fuel which caused knock. Is the "Vishnu Reset" is only good for timing then how does fuel correlate?

2. My "normal" driving is redlining when I have a chance, it's too much fun. Should I just drive "normally" then w/out having shut off the car? I'm going to be doing to "Vishnu Reset" tonight. I have the day off work tomorrow. :D

1. There is no way to make the ECU run leaner "quicker". If you are knocking because of excess fuel, I suggest that you take your car to a tuner and have it tuned. A EcuTeK reflash goes great with a UTEC! :D

2. Yes, just drive normally after performing the Vishnu Reset. Don't hit the rev limiter... :banana:

Cheers!

1. I also heard the EcuTek works well w/ the UTEC. I have a theory base on my "normal" driving expereinces; everytime I reset the ECU, thus richer mixture, I get "more" knock till after 150miles which is when the ECU leans out the A/F. Also if I do the EcuTek reflash, will I not need to retune the UTEC again?

2. Too late, I already did some quick runs tonight. I have 2 sets of nice hills near my place. I did 5+ runs at 2500-3000 rpm @ 3-5psi for 5+ secs each in 4th gear. It's so nice to do some road tuning and know I'm not breaking any laws. I'm driving home a few minutes later and took 1st gear to redline twice ... humm I wonder if it'll change the "Vishnu Reset" process any.

1. I really hate getting bad gas. I figured a gas station would have a new batch of gas more than once a week; I've now gotten 2 tanks of bad gas from BP on Johnson Ferry near Lower Roswell w/in the last week. Now I have to burn through this tank then go to QT where "so far" I've been successful w/ them.

2. I just added the NOS Octane Booster from Autozone. It really killed me last night when I went "street racing" and I've never seen that many knocks since I had the UTEC, I got knock in every 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Does anyone know how long the octane "booster" takes before it dilutes into the gas? I read some of the other bottles and hey say usually near an empty tank but isn't that ironic since if I had an empty tank then I just get more fuel and hopefully solve the bad gas problem? I ran the car hard after adding it and it still knocks like crazy when WOT? :(

Man, you must have a real problem with gas in your area... :eek:

Don't know what to say... except try some gas stations farther away? :confused:

1. It was definitely a bad tank of gas from BP Oil. I'm very disappointed that it caused me this magnitude of problems. The knocks are definitely decreasing now. I had to drive around for like 5+ hrs to burn off the gas yesterday ... I never circled 285 till yesterday.

2. The knocks now are because of overboosting situations ... what's weird because the ECU seems "more" sensitive to the UTEC control of the FBC. I did "NOT" touch the boost settings and now I'm suddenly getting 18psi+ which I use to only get 16.5psi? I have a feeling by resetting the ECU many times recently caused it to learn "something" which I can't figure out. I got a bunch of knocks this morning but the majority was due to the overboosting situation.

3. Also I was looking over the knock log and noticed that the Injector Duty hit 100% at some points. I don't remember it being so high, I remembered low 90s% sometimes but 99-100% was weird? Why is this happening?

When you reset your ECU the fuel trims went to 0. After driving a couple days the ECU will learn new fuel trims (hopefully less fuel) and you should be fine.

1. Honestly, I never looked at a log after a fresh ECU reset. I just happened to notice the Injector Dute Cycle at some really high number at or near 100% when glancing at the knock log.

2. Why would the the FBC start acting weird and causing overboosting? "Nothing" was touched in the UTEC boost variable, it just started to climb to 18psi+ ... yes it was real cold this morning ... low 40s ... but that was a little extreme. I saw my analog boost gauge go past 18+psi when it usually use to only go to 16psi?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. Honestly, I never looked at a log after a fresh ECU reset. I just happened to notice the Injector Dute Cycle at some really high number at or near 100% when glancing at the knock log.

2. Why would the the FBC start acting weird and causing overboosting? "Nothing" was touched in the UTEC boost variable, it just started to climb to 18psi+ ... yes it was real cold this morning ... low 40s ... but that was a little extreme. I saw my analog boost gauge go past 18+psi when it usually use to only go to 16psi?

Perhaps just the weather, I had to lower my open loop boost settings in my map by over 15 across the board above 4,500rpms this past week it has gotten so cold here. Now i just made two identical maps one with cold weather boost setting and one with normal weather boost settings

So if you were running say "85" in the boost above 4500 rpm, now you're running "70" in those ranges? it should be in the 60s by the time I get off work so I do some WOT and see what the boost changes to, I assume the low 40s were that optimal for the UTEC and how it was orignally tunned for mid 50s.

Originally posted by chuglobal
So if you were running say "85" in the boost above 4500 rpm, now you're running "70" in those ranges? it should be in the 60s by the time I get off work so I do some WOT and see what the boost changes to, I assume the low 40s were that optimal for the UTEC and how it was orignally tunned for mid 50s.

Exactly, I also have my ABC closed and just use the boost map for boost tuning so maybe my values higher than most peoples. Once i saw the boost getting up to 18-19psi in 4th and 5th gears i just made another map with the lower boost values..

1. I took me 1/2 of the new tank to almost completely get rid of the "bad" gas from BP Oil. I don't know the exact timing however I started to get 0 knocks, which is normal, around 1/2 a tank of gas. I still can't believe what happened. :(

2. I think the bad gas + extreme change into cold weather caused my knocks. I was hitting 18psi+ which is NOT a good thing. I turned the ABC 1/4 turn in and things seem to be at 16.5-17psi in the low 50s which is fine w/ me.

3. I also noticed today the Injector Duty Cycles are going back to 80s-90s once again, I hit 100 miles today since my ECU reset two night ago so I'm assuming the ECU is changing the maps to be less rich.

4. I also really think that my previous knocks on the base Stage 2 map was caused mainly due to the rich A/F variables. I did pull timing which now going back and thinking, I should have tunned for correct A/F then change timing either up or down ... up is what is preferred. :D

4. Generally the tuning order is boost -> fuel -> timing. So now your getting a hang of things. I'm glad your IDC's went down. That could have definately been causing some knock.

1. Why didn't some mention to me earlier that the order for tuning was boost > A/F > timing? I was gathering my conclusion on what I have read and seen.

2. I wish I had a dyno or something to truely measure everything w/out the worry of cops doing 128mph runs in 4th. I really want to test my knock theory on the base Stage 2 map is caused more by rich A/F then too advanced timing.

Originally posted by chuglobal
I just added the NOS Octane Booster from Autozone. It really killed me last night when I went "street racing" and I've never seen that many knocks since I had the UTEC, I got knock in every 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Does anyone know how long the octane "booster" takes before it dilutes into the gas? I read some of the other bottles and hey say usually near an empty tank but isn't that ironic since if I had an empty tank then I just get more fuel and hopefully solve the bad gas problem? I ran the car hard after adding it and it still knocks like crazy when WOT? :(

1) That NOS Octane Booster from Autozone adds POINT 7. Which is pretty crappy for the 10.99 that it costs. That basically changes your 91 octane (or whatever) to 91.7. Even that is probably stretching it because it is a generic figure that is supposed to cover every size of gas tank. Next time, add a gallon of Toulene. You can find it at Sherman Williams. Ask for the contractor discount and they sell it to you 5 gallons for 27.00. Toulene is 114 octane and will up your tank ~ 1.5 for each gallon in a Subaru. Basically you can dump in two gallons of toulene for a bottle of that NOS stuff. That would make 91 octane gas ~ 94 (93.9).

Hope that helps,

Rob

1. I never had a serious problem w/ a "bad" tank of gas until this past weekend. I was in a panic and thus the reason why I did not know the OTC Octane Booster suck. If I knew I would have tried another avenue.

2. What exactly is "Toulene?" Is it "race" gas being it's 114 Octane or just some chemical additive? Is it bad for the engine to add Toulene? My next question is why Sherman Williams carries "race" gas? Since the Subaru carries a 15.9 gallons capacity, 114 Octane would change the Octane on average 1.5+ increase for each gallon of 114 added?

Toluene is pure 114 oct and is a main ingredient in gasoline. It is also a paint thinner :D So yes, Sherwin Williams carries it and you can run it in your gas tank.

If you put in one gallon of Toluene in with a tank full of gas, you'll get an octane rating of somewhere around 95.

So why wouldn't people just fill up w/ 93 Octane at 11 gallons for $15 then go get 4 gallons on Toulene and run on average 101 Octane for <$35 instead of just buying "race" gas would is like $70+?

You do not want to use more than 20% Toluene per tank. Toluene + regular petrol (gas) is not the same as race gas. Race gas is blended with many other things that produces not only high octane but a balenced fuel.

Read http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

Lets take 8 gallons of 92 octane and add 2 gallons of Toluene to it. The final octane rating is: 96.4

This is how you calculate it.

(8 * 92) + (2 * 114) / 10 = 96.4 octane

Cheers

MTG

I decided yesterday to test out my theory that the base Stage 2 map knocks are caused more from too much fuel than too much timing. I set the fuel to "0" instead of the positive numbers in some places as shown by my A/F dyno run. I had changed all the areas where I pulled timing to the defult numbers of the base Stage 2 which is more aggressive by 1-3 degrees in the 4250-5750 rpm range @ 70%-100% load. I usually tune in the 50s degree so I'll have to wait until it gets warmer outside since it's 40s right now around 8am. I have a feeling I'll still get knock due to too much timing but I should be pulling "less" timing than I use to which means my theory is correct. I'll post the update, I just had a urge to change something to my UTEC. ;)

You don't want to set your fuel to 0 since this will revert to ECU control...

Cheers!

The ECU control the fuel anyways and the amounts asjusted only increase or decreases what the ECU normally tells the engine to do. The base Stage 2 map runs real "rich." I did some preliminary test runs and so far things seemed to be going as planned. I stilled pulled timing in some spots but only 1 degree when I pulled 1-3 degree in the same areas before; I have pulled 1 degree of timing so far in 4x different rpm ranges @ 70% to 100% load which is "MUCH" better than before. I'm excited because I think I may have stumbled onto a theory and maybe this'll help someone who's trying to tune in the future.

I found fuel tuning made little difference in knock suppression - even drowning it in fuel. In my experience with my car, timing was always the issue - and for some reason my car ALWAYS wanted to run very aggressive timing under boost (confirmed through lots of logging). I pulled 2-3 degrees in the most knock prone areas and it seemed to help a lot. When the temperature dropped I added another point of fuel for my winter map.

All academic now that I sold the UTEC though :lol:

1. What does "audible" knock sound like? It's a curiosity question since everytime a knock occurs and the CEL flashes, I hear a "psssssh" sound, like a faint explosion but "held" back. It's not a hard, harsh, or serious sound; it's just something I've noticed. I can feel it because the timing is automatically pulled.

2. Does copying the 50% load column from 5000-7000rpm to the 0% load column from 5000-7000 in the timing section prevent shift knocks? Would it be better to copy from 4000rpm or is 5000rpm sufficient?

Chuglobal,

Since you are stage 2, you really don't want to mess with the 0% col. You can copy and extrapolate the timing from 60% down to 10%, but you don't want to play with 0%. Remember, the UTEC uses the 0% load col for timing and fuel everywhere under 60% TPS. 60% TPS is also about where your car switches from CL to OL fueling, which is why TXS uses that value for the changeover.

If you're getting shift knock, it's likely caused by rough shifting. Try to smooth it out and see if that takes care of it.

Audible knock, by the way, sounds kind of like BBs or small ball bearings swirling around in a can.

Also, it's possible that your det has gone down because your ambient temps have gone down. Turbo cars love cold weather. It's also pretty questionable to tune fuel without a WbO2.

Digitalekniq,

You really can't go by what the ECU timing says under load when you're running with the UTEC. What you see as "Very agressive" timing is actually the ECU noting that the car isn't knocking at the timing it's sending, so it's trying to up the timing to the knock threshold. Of course, since the UTEC is actually sending the timing, the ECU just thinks that it can keep going higher and higher, and it tries to.

Like you said, though, it doesn't matter for you anymore...

-Sean

I've heard that sound as well chu. I'm not sure if it's acutal det or just a side effect of the car pulling massive amounts of timing very quickly. By most accounts det sounds like BBs in a can and can be very difficult to hear on these cars.

Many users including myself have had good results using lower timing values in the 0% column from about 4k rpm up to reduce shift knock. The theory is when you left off the gas in high rpm to shift and the Utec switches timing control back to the ECU once it sees <60% TPS it knocks because the ECU is trying to run A LOT of timing advance. So running timing similar to what's in your 100% column for example, should reduce shift knock. The other school of thought is that it's merely noise the knock sensor is picking up.

Turbo cars like the cooler weather, but usually knock events increase due to poor gas, boost spikes, or just too much timing advance for this nice, cool, dense air.

Also the stock ECU is a GREAT tool for tuning timing everywhere less than 5500rpm. Even though the Utec is in control of timing, monitoring the ECU's learned timing 'curve' can be very helpful in seeing if your Utec tune is too aggressive. If the ECU is unhappy, you'll notice valley's and plateau's in the logs that show areas your tune can be improved. Generally a happy ECU should continually ramp up timing advance as rpm increases AFTER the boost onslaught (where there's a valley). After 5500rpm it doesn't listen and learn knock correction anymore.

Si2 -

I wasn't saying that the ECU col wasn't a useful tool, I was saying that you can't take its actual values seriously. Just because it shows +30 doesn't mean you can acutally run +30 there. It does mean that you may be able to run more than you are at that point.

The problem with specifying timing in the 0% col is that you're stuck at that timing, no matter the load, when you're under 60% TPS. It takes away the ECUs ability to microadjust timing at low loads for efficiency and reliability. I'm not saying that it might not help for certain circumstances. I would just try mapping timing down to the 10% col first, before mapping to 0%.

I do know this - I can MAKE my car show shift-knock by shifting badly, but it never detects knock during a shift when I shift in my usual fashion, even though that "normal" shifting is fast by most measures.

Basically, unless Chu has put a WbO2 on the car and mapped fuel (possible, I didn't re-read the whole thread), it's really hard to accurately tune fuel. Most people increase fuel somewhat during winter months, to allow for the denser air and worse gas.

-Sean

Thanks for the clearification. I agree with pretty much everything you just said. :)

The problem with specifying timing in the 0% col is that you're stuck at that timing, no matter the load, when you're under 60% TPS. It takes away the ECUs ability to microadjust timing at low loads for efficiency and reliability. I'm not saying that it might not help for certain circumstances. I would just try mapping timing down to the 10% col first, before mapping to 0%.

Yes and no... At least the way I drive, my car is NEVER <60% TPS at 5k rpm and almost always 4k rpm is >60% TPS also. You don't lose much by 'hard coding' the timing in these areas.

You have me there. I agree with you as well. Don't you just love harmony? My car is pretty much never sub 60% at 5K, but I have been known to do some cruising as well as some low- to mid-throttle transitions to and from the 4-5K range.

I guess you just try it and see how it goes. Every car IS different, and every driver is more so. It's certainly not likely to cause serious problems, just perhaps some lost low-throttle mid-range. And how much of an issue it that?

One thing to watch, Chu, is make sure you're not "accidentally" flatshifting. Basically, if you're still hard on the gas and you go to press the clutch "slowly" (less than instantly, actually), you're going to make a lot of transmission noise, which can lead to some knock showing up on the sensor. It's not too far from the tranny, after all. You CAN flatshift these cars smoothly, particularly from after the 1-2 shift, but it takes some practice, and if you miss it, you can cause youself some expense (gearsets and whole trannys aren't cheap...) and lots of time in the garage.

Good luck and have fun!

-Sean

1. I never heard "BBS," I also feel that it's the ECU just pulling ALOT of timing. I really did not want to copy of the values from the 40% column into the 0% as the reasons you guys stated above.

2. I've noticed in "tunned" Stage 2 maps than instead of having the ECU control the timing from the 10%>30% load points that the values from the 40% column is copied intot he 10-30% load points. My goal is to get rid of knock when shifting; if I got WOT at 3K rpm in 4th until it hits 6K rpm in 4th I get no knock. However if I redline 3rd and go into 4th, the transition phase seems to cause knock. It does NOT happen all the time but occasionally. It feels to me that the ECU is no responding quick enough. If I "gently" go on the WOT, the knock are also less prone.

Do your UTEC logs/the CEL show det in these situations, and if so, how much?

Well, the first thing that I'd try is extrapolating the X% col down to the 10% col in your timing map. If you are currently mapped down to 50%, and 50% = 21 at a given point, 40% should = 22, 30% = 23, 20% = 24, 10% = 25. Remember, the UTEC won't mess with timing until TPS is past 60%, so you'll still have whatever advantages exist with ECU controlled timing during cruising, with the advantages of a rock-solid curve when you hit it. This might help you out here. The reason is that even though the log does not show it, you DO have to pass through these load sites on your way up to the ones that you do have mapped. My maps have been well-tuned, and they control timing way down to 10%.

Second, practice shifting smoother. Like you say, you go gently into WOT and get no det ever, but when you hit it, you sometimes see some det events. If you are either on the gas while the clutch is disengaging, or on the gas before you've fully re-engaged it, this could be the result.

-Sean

1. The logs showed either 1, 2, or 10 knock during switching. Which column would you use to copy down to the 10-30% load columns ... 40 or 50?

2. Yeah I agree the UTEC doesn't seem to like "aggressive" shifting. I need to my "smoothness" anyways. I wish there was a way for the UTEC and ECU to work together faster.

3. Can "bad" gas which is more prone to explosion spool up the turbo quicker?

It's not the UTEC that doesn't like overagressive shifting - it's the car. One thing, though - by default, the UTEC is much more sensitive to knock than the ECU or a knocklink. You can dial that back if you need to, but I'd make sure it's not really knock first.

Just make sure that you are 100% off the gas before playing with the clutch. And be smooth with the clutch. It'll thank you in the long run.

As far as which col to use - use the lowest, and than extrapolate it.

Bad gas should not be able to "pre-spool" the turbo.

-Sean

I've noticed that w/ the recent cold weather my car knocks when shifting from 3rd to 4th at redline. I've been watching the analog boost guage and notice the needle goes past 16psi which mean during the shift from redline of 3rd into 4th, I'm boosting more than 16psi in that few seconds. I get knock at 5K+ rpm in 4th which is when the rpms sit during the 3rd redline shift into 4th. I could set the UTEC to not pull timing unless the knock is greater than 1 vs. 0 which is the default value. What really gets me is the fact that on Sat when it was <40s I set the timing to ECU for all the values and I got knock 1 time; technically if I got knock when the ECU was controlling all the timing then it's just the UTEC being more sensitive.

ECU controlled timing works, but it's not as aggressive. And after ~5500rpm it will run far too much advance. You should see knock here consistantly if you're trying this method.

Also the default knock count should be 1. I run my car with it set to 2.

As big_adventure stated... You do have a little room to 'tune' the knock thresholds. I feel as though the default thresholds are a little too sensitive.

Like Si2WRX said, you can tune the knock sensitivity. On my car, I run slightly reduced knock sensitivity and a 2-knock threshold.

About boost - when you are off the gas and on the clutch, the bypass valve (or BOV) should release and thus release pressure.

You are getting knock during your shift, while you are off the gas and on the clutch. And you are only getting knock while shifting hard, never when you make extra effort to shift slower and more smoothly.

You might want to pull a point of timing or two from the trouble areas to see if that corrects it. If it does - you're fixed. If not, then it really is just shift chatter showing up on the knock sensor and you might have to adjust the sensitivities to stop seeing it.

Good luck...

-Sean

1. I thought of something interesting this morning; I've been getting knock in "aggressive" driving situations and I've been pondering about the whole situation. I thinking about the fact of adjusting the A/F to the desired ratio then going back and add timing and how it all works out?
2. If for example at 4250 rpm I'm running 20 degrees of timing from 40-60% load and 19 degrees of timing from 70-100% load since I pulled a degree due to knock. If we add 2 degree of timing to the 40-60% load for the end value of 22 degrees of timing does the same ratio change so the 70-100% load would be 21 degrees of timing since there is still a total 1 degree difference between the 40-60% load and the 70-100% load range?
3. Also is pulling 2-3 degree of timing alot for any particular load point?

You should probably start with tuning fuel in any event.

There is not really a hard, set rule for setting the timing, but I run the same from 60-100 in each site, and don't have any problem with it at all. Of course, since my base value for the load is 20, rather than the default 18, I never go over 80% on 91 octane gas. As for why, I run 21psi on 98 octane. Use what works, don't set yourself a timing goal and try to make the rest of the tuning parameters work with it. Do fuel and then boost and timing. The more boost you run, the less timing, in all liklihood.

While I was dealing with the 04 ECU issues, I had to pull as much as 4 points from lots of sites from my dyno-tuned, 91-octane map to make it streetable.

What map are you using now. I'm sure it's in the text here, but I'm lazy and don't want to go back and read it.

-Sean

[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20] [20]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [21] [21] [21] [19] [19] [19] [19]
[-100] [-100] [-100] [-100] [22] [22] [22] [21] [21] [21] [21]
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1. I've copied my timing section from 4000-7000 rpm. If you look at the load points of 70%-100% you'll see that I pulled 2 degree at 4250 rpm and 1 degree from 4500-6000 rpm. I know the majority of my problems occur around to 4000-5500 rpm range. It "feels' basically like the ECU is not catching up to the change in the sudden change in rpm and load and does not know what timing value to use from the UTEC.
2. Originally I pulled 3 degrees at 70%-100% load @ 4250 rpm, 2 degrees at 70%-100% @ 4500 rpm and the rest were the same however added everything back after the "interesting" dyno run. I've also turned the ABC from 2 turns out to 1.5 turns out to compensate for the colder weather. I just know the suddent change causes "knock." I'm sure if I kept pulling timing in the 4000-5000+ range I'd soon or later get rid of all the knock but I'm trying to keep as much timing as possible.
3. I also noticed that if I spin tire around a corner in the cold or playing in the rain, the rpms climb faster than normal due to less traction. Thus when shifting gears it causes knock; is this also something people have seen?

Well, first off, I don't know that I'd have timing dip from 4K-4250 the way you do. Also remember, sometimes knock happens at a "safe" place in the map, after running to hard in an area that isn't so safe. You could knock at 4250 because of run conditions at 4000.

Last off - the ECU doesn't use timing from the UTEC. The UTEC overrides the ECUs timing in the appriate conditions. As far as either the ECU or the UTEC not "keeping up", they both have much more processing power than simple timing management takes. Also, lots of drivers with cars with much more power than yours (hence much faster changes) don't see this problem, so unless you have some hardware issues, it seems unlikely that that's the cause.

-Sean

You lost me? So what are you suggesting since I have knock around the 4000-5000+ rpm when driving/shifting aggressively?

I was responding to your suggestion that the ECU/UTEC couldn't keep up with the timing demands.

You should, first off, copy your 40% timing col down through 10-30. That's what TXS has recommended for shift knock, as well as many others. That's how I run, as well as many other tuned WRXs.

Second, you have a dip in timing from 4000-4250. I've never seen anyone set a map up that way. You could back 4000 down, or bump 4250 back up to equal, but I don't think that a dip there is necessarily a good idea.

That's it, for now. Start with that. I'd say that you could also use a good tuning with a WbO2 to make sure that you are fueling properly.

-Sean

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1. I've pulled 1 degree at 4K rpm and added back 1 degree at 4250 rpm.

2. I've also been thinking that higher heat and less fuel ( leaner ) mixture will help the turbo spool faster. This theory + the fact that "ALL" tunned Stage 2 maps, which I've seen online, have a "negative" value for the fuel values instead of the "positive" values which come w/ the base Stage 2 map. Would it be a good test to make all the positive values to "0" w/out using a WB O2 sensor?

A leaner mixture will benefit spool. So will an MBC or good EBC instead of the Utec for boost control.

You really need to get a WBO2 on that car and get the fuel map tweaked. Once you do it you won't need to do it again unless you change something major. All the headaches you have now will be a thing of the past.

True, a leaner mixture will benefit spool, but you don't have any idea what your mixture is now. My tuned stage 2 map did NOT have negative values for fuel, but had positive values everywhere. DON'T tune fuel without a wideband. You will NOT knock just because of too much fuel. You might leave power on the table, etc., but how much spool trouble are you having now?

Also true, a good MBC or EBC might spool better than your UTEC, but I wouldn't be so sure about that. With an MBC, you also have to deal with PTFB (part-throttle, full-boost) problems and the potential damage that comes with that.

If you're serious, find a decent tuner to work with to nail that fuel curve first. Once that's done, you're good to go. If you can't find a tuner, you can find LM-1 WbO2 tools for about $300.

-Sean

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a coorelation somewhere where I'm not seeing.

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a correlation somewhere where I'm not seeing.

Yeah, I realized I need to get the fuel map tunned especially w/ the introduction of cold weather, I'm knocking more often. I noticed while driving today that the knock seems more prone around 4000-4500 rpm according to the tach; if I switch gears and the rpm does not fall below 4500 rpm I'm knock free ... thus I'm assuming there must be a correlation somewhere where I'm not seeing.

No surprise where you're knocking: 4000-4500 is right in the low range of the torque peak, meaning the highest cylinder pressures.

How much boost are you running? You could try pulling a little boost out and seeing what happens.

-Sean

Aren't we "supposed" to hit peak torque at 4K rpm and slowly die off boost? Humm, maybe because it's cold I'm boosting higher than 16.5psi thus causing the knock?

What boost are you hitting?

You should always make sure you're not sacrificing fuel and timing to carry more boost than works for your setup.

-Sean

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1. I agree which is why I've been thinking from another view. I've read and heard that you're right, you should never sacrifice boost for timing and fuel. I've also been wondering why my car seems to have "higher" values for the boost numbers in the UTEC; I remember setting it up at 55-60 degree for 16.5psi. However due to the cold weather I've been seeing 16.5-18psi +\- during those knock times between 3rd and 4th shifts or just transition states in general. I haven't had any recent logs however I remember seeing before in cold weather.
2. What I'm thinking is going WOT at 3K rpm in 4th until 5K+ rpm in 4th and trying to get boost to be no more than 17psi at any time in the cold ( 40 degrees ) weather which should equal 16-16.5psi in the normal ( 50-60 degrees ) weather and lower boost at temperature increase. I'll decrease the boost values until I hit my goals. Is this a good approach?
3. I've been looking at other maps on WRXHackers and notice that my boost values are all "higher" than any maps posted. That should have been a clue for me right away since we're all running the Stage 2.
4. Does boost tunning affect A/F or vice versa? IE: if I tune boost now and do A/F later, will tunning the A/F lower or increase boost? If I tune A/F first then tune boost, will it adjust the A/F since both causes will affect the "boost=air?
5. The 2 maps above are the old boost vs. the new "test" boost which has lower values than the previous version which is correct. It's from 3500 rpm > 7000 rpm @ 70-100% load.
6. I'll upload the boost map once I get to work since my laptop is at work and add back the timing and see what happens from there.

Well, first off, you should convert to closed-loop boost right away. Read the UTEC manual for details, but in OLB you can expect boost to fluctuate widely in various temps and altitudes.

Your idea for decreasing your boost settings to match your needs is pretty much right on.

No, boost won't affect AFRs. Remember, open-loop fueling is done based on two axis of a table: revs and load, and load is MAF voltage. MAF voltage is higher when the rate of air passing past the MAF sensor is higher, so the car is adding fuel to directly match the amount of air passing by.

Good luck. I'll be away for the next couple of days, so I won't check the forums until I'm back.

-Sean

Some people have mentioned to me that I should try CL vs. OL boost control. How does CL help during the weather changes and how does it exactly work? Also the manual states to change the value from 1 to 0 to go from OL to CL then start tunning w/ a value of 200.

Originally posted by chuglobal
Some people have mentioned to me that I should try CL vs. OL boost control. How does CL help during the weather changes and how does it exactly work? Also the manual states to change the value from 1 to 0 to go from OL to CL then start tunning w/ a value of 200.

From the special constants menu, you'll need to change the default of =1 to =0 for CLB. Once in CLB, just ctrl/f a value of 200 all the way from the 50 column to 100. From there, just play with the number raising them as high as needed (up to a value of 500) until you're boosting where you need to be.

As far as the benefit of going from OLB to CLB, I believe it's stated in the manual. I haven't had any problem so far in CLB and the temp has fluctuated from 30f- to 60f recently.

1. I did a few quick little runs coming back from lunch. It's 26-34 degrees outside w/ rain. I didn't get knock from 1st > 2nd or 2nd > 3rd however I did get it going from 3rd > 4th at 5K rpm according to the tach. Thus I must have been running way too much boost exaggerate by the cold weather and thus the reason for the recent knocks between shifts. I'm going to change the value at 5K rpm from 85 to 83 and see if that solves the knocks.
2. I went through the 3.1 manual and did not see any details on OLB vs. CLB. Which page did you see the info? What boost ( psi ) are you getting at the default value of 200? What values did you end up w/?

Originally posted by chuglobal
1. I did a few quick little runs coming back from lunch. It's 26-34 degrees outside w/ rain. I didn't get knock from 1st > 2nd or 2nd > 3rd however I did get it going from 3rd > 4th at 5K rpm according to the tach. Thus I must have been running way too much boost exaggerate by the cold weather and thus the reason for the recent knocks between shifts. I'm going to change the value at 5K rpm from 85 to 83 and see if that solves the knocks.
2. I went through the 3.1 manual and did not see any details on OLB vs. CLB. Which page did you see the info? What boost ( psi ) are you getting at the default value of 200? What values did you end up w/?


Each set up is going to be different, i.e. which ever turbo you're using, how much you've got the ABC set screw backed out and even car to car. I'm running a value of 500 from 6250 to redline in in the 70-100% columns and only like 300 somewhere in the mid-range. It would really depend on if I backed the ABC in or out and then it would change. You just need to put the numbers in (ctrl/f will take like 2 seconds) and go from there.

Concerning your knocks between shifts, if you've already got the 10-50% column mapped for timing (other than ECU) try lowering those numbers where you see knock. You should be able to still boost normal.

So we can "mix" controlling the boost from ECU to CLB? Currently the base Stage use uses ECU control from 10-60% and then the UTEC takes over from 70-100% in OLB. Do I just change the UTEC to use CLB and change the values from the same 70-100% load points to 200 and go up from there? I didn't see anything specific regarding tunning in CLB in the manual.

The maps look the same on the OL vs CL, only the values are different. Just leave "ECU" on the 0% - 50/60% and put your new numbers in the rest of the columns from 500 to 9000rpms.

Are you running the stock turbo? If so could you post up your map just so I can have a general idea? So by using CLB your boost values are no longer being affected by temperature? Which parameters are used to adjust values for CLB?

I'm not running a stock turbo but I can post up my CL boost map for illustration if you want. I'm at work right now but could do it later when I get home.

1. Did you happen to remember what boost level ( psi ) you got when you used 200 as a starting point for CLB control from 500-9000rpm @ 70-100% load?
2. The manual states to increase the CLB by "small" increments, however since the values are 200-500+, wouldn't it be more efficient to adjust by 25-50 increments? I know ... not having a personal dyno does suck. ;)

I changed from OLB to CLB ... I started w/ a value of 200 as stated in the manual from 1500-9000 rpm @ 70-100% load. These were the following values / psi ...

200 = 10psi
300 = 12-13psi
400 = 15-16psi

Once I hit 400 I started to get knock at the 4000-5250 rpm range as expected. I've changed the values from 400 to 330 in the 4000-5250 rpm range. It was weird; I had 330 for 4000-4750 rpm and 350 for 5000-5250. When I first made the change earlier tonight I was knock free however later tonight I started to get knock again thus the reason I'm running 330 for 4000-5250 rpm. I'm running around 15.5-15.9 psi. I check tomorrow morning again driving to work.

I noticed that I should have a value of 400+ in CLB to obtain 16psi. However what bothers me is that I'm getting knock again between shifts. I did a good 3500rpm-6000rpm pull in 4th this morning on my drive to work and go knock at 5750-6000 rpm range; this knock is definitely due to timing since there was no shifting involved and boost was only at 13+ psi. I've been looking at the log and notice that at NO time am I overboosting since I'm not even making 16psi; I'm running at high 15s during the 400 value sections. Thus the only reason must be either too much timing or harsh shifting. Why was I fine last night and as the night progressed and this morning I'm getting knock again? Can anyone shed some light?

Was it cooler this morning?

Originally posted by chuglobal
I noticed that I should have a value of 400+ in CLB to obtain 16psi. However what bothers me is that I'm getting knock again between shifts. I did a good 3500rpm-6000rpm pull in 4th this morning on my drive to work and go knock at 5750-6000 rpm range; this knock is definitely due to timing since there was no shifting involved and boost was only at 13+ psi. I've been looking at the log and notice that at NO time am I overboosting since I'm not even making 16psi; I'm running at high 15s during the 400 value sections. Thus the only reason must be either too much timing or harsh shifting. Why was I fine last night and as the night progressed and this morning I'm getting knock again? Can anyone shed some light?


Your boost map is different now so you will also need to change the timing map. From your above post, looks like your timing is on the aggressive side:

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Of course, your boost is on the low side so I guess you can get away with that much timing. I had to take my timing down in the 10-40 columns to 19/20 in the 4k-redline range due to knock between shifts. Once I did that, it was fine with no performance loss. Give that approach a try.

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1. It was low 30s last night and high 30s this morning so technically it was a little "warmer" this morning than last night. CLB should "not" be affected by temperature so it "shouldn't" matter.

2. If you suggesting changed the timing values from 4000-7000 rpm @ 10-14% load to 19 / 20, then that's alot of timing which will be pulled since the default is 20 > 25? So where should I try 19 and where should I try 20?

3. No one said that CLB will affect timing?

4. What is calculating the CLB variables?

5. Do you think it should be ok to use 400 for 4000-7000 rpm since I know the 400 values provides 15.3-15.9 psi? Technically I'm guessing it should be 400+ to obtain 16.5 psi? Every knock that has occurred was NOT due to overboosting since all the boost values where not even close to 16.5psi+? Also I have the ABC at 1.5 turns out.

Originally posted by chuglobal
3. No one said that CLB will affect timing?


CLB isn't affecting timing, the timing hasn't changed. Your boost map changed, hence the reason you're getting knock in places where you didn't previously. This is like an altogether new map now.



Originally posted by chuglobal

2. If you suggesting changed the timing values from 4000-7000 rpm @ 10-14% load to 19 / 20, then that's alot of timing which will be pulled since the default is 20 > 25? So where should I try 19 and where should I try 20?


In the 10%-40% columns. When you're shifting the rpms are coming down and out of throttle and boost. When you're getting back on the throttle, you're starting out in the lower load sites. That's what was causing my knock occurences. Give it a shot and see.


Originally posted by chuglobal

4. What is calculating the CLB variables?

Don't know exactly. Seems to work well. Maybe you can make a new thread to shed light on this one.


Originally posted by chuglobal
1. It was low 30s last night and high 30s this morning so technically it was a little "warmer" this morning than last night. CLB should "not" be affected by temperature so it "shouldn't" matter.


I personally wouldn't think that 33f vs 39f would make a ton of difference. Of course, you may be running on the ragged edge of timing/fuel aggressiveness and maybe it would.

Is CLB really have the car engage back at a "lower" rpm site? I didn't pay too much attention when I was in OLB. I figured boost will only change boost and not create a "new" map. I guess I can try 20 instead of 20-25 values in the timing section from 4000-7000 rpm at 10-40% load.

Originally posted by chuglobal
Is CLB really have the car engage back at a "lower" rpm site? I didn't pay too much attention when I was in OLB. I figured boost will only change boost and not create a "new" map. I guess I can try 20 instead of 20-25 values in the timing section from 4000-7000 rpm at 10-40% load.

Let us know how it works out.

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I just changed yet again the timing and boost maps. I figure I should adjust the boost to the target levels first which si 16.5psi max and then hit timing from there. I think I'm trying to do two things at once which is messing my theories up. I left timing alone in the 70-100% load points and adjusted the 10-40% load points. Once I get 16.5psi I'll adjust the timing. I'm assuminig I should hit 16.5psi at 4K rpm and hold till 6K rpm or as long as possible?

Originally posted by chuglobal
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
[0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [0] [400] [400] [400] [400]
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You may want to ramp those values up rather than all 400's. Also, should those 0's be ECU?

1. Actually the 0's = ECU.

2. Thinking about it more I've also noticed that "100" value increase in CLB equals around "2" psi increase. Thus if you do a rough ratio ... "25" unit increase would equal a .5+\- psi increase so if I'm maxing at 15.9 ( 99% of the time ) and I want 16.5psi I should use 425 instead of 400. I'll need to get a baseline and work from there. I'll try this new theory on my way home tonight.

1. My theory was close to correct; 425 gave me between 16.1-16.4 psi w/ a max of 16.8-17 psi which happened only once in two areas. I can see where boost needs to be increase 3000 rpm and before & 5000 rpm and after. Thus my values are now 430 in those areas. I actually also decrease the boost values in the two areas where it hit 16.8-17 psi to 420. I also realize that CLB allows much "finer" tunning of boost. It's been 30-40 degrees the whole time so I can't really tell if weather affects the boost values.

2. Since I'm working w/ boost, I have changed the UTEC timing control back to 100% ECU control so basically I have a very expensive EBC. ;) Once I get the boost levels I want, I'll mess w/ the timing again. As long as I don't over boost, I should NOT see any knock. I'm hitting 16-16.5 psi by 3500rpm and holding till 5000 rpm. I have changed some of the boost values up and down so I'll see what it gives me tomorrow. What is a safe average for boost level at the rpms? Should max boost be from 3500-6500 rpm?

3000 +2.1 3.0 21 00 00 13.6 +24.4 20.0 ECU. +0.0 ECU. 3.1
3030 +2.9 3.2 73 30 00 14.1 +18.0 31.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.3
3080 +4.3 3.4 102 40 00 rich +14.2 36.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.5
3124 +7.2 3.5 102 60 00 rich +12.0 44.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.5
3124 +10.0 3.5 102 70 00 rich +12.0 45.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.5
3214 +12.5 3.6 101 80 00 rich +11.9 47.0 ECU. +1.5 435.00 3.6
3274 +14.5 3.6 101 80 00 rich +12.0 48.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.7
3316 +15.3 3.6 102 80 00 rich +11.4 48.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.7
3367 +15.7 3.6 101 80 00 rich +11.6 49.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.7
3387 +15.9 3.6 102 90 00 rich +11.4 51.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.6
3465 +16.1 3.7 101 90 00 rich +11.1 53.0 ECU. +1.5 430.00 3.8
3519 +16.4 3.7 102 90 00 rich +11.1 55.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3542 +16.4 3.7 101 90 00 rich +10.8 57.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.7
3619 +16.4 3.8 101 90 00 rich +10.8 58.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3646 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich +11.1 59.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3687 +15.9 3.8 101 80 00 rich +11.6 60.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3749 +15.9 3.8 102 90 00 rich +11.7 61.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3805 +15.9 3.8 101 90 00 rich +12.4 61.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3831 +16.1 3.8 101 90 00 rich +12.8 62.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.8
3827 +16.6 3.8 101 90 00 rich +13.0 63.0 ECU. +1.5 425.00 3.9
3898 +16.1 3.9 101 80 00 rich +13.5 64.0