I wish Subaru would pick a name for this thing. This is from http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=08139813:(08:48 Oct. 13, 2003)
Subaru to introduce 7-seater in '05; vehicle to show off new design direction

By DIANA T. KURYLKO | Automotive News

CHERRY HILL, N.J. - Subaru of America Inc. aims to push upmarket in the United States by introducing a premium-priced, seven-passenger sport wagon in mid-2005.

The model will be built at Subaru's factory in Lafayette, Ind.

The all-wheel-drive vehicle will show off a new design direction: a more European look that is key to Subaru's effort to compete as a premium brand, says Fred Adcock, executive vice president of Subaru of America Inc.

Annual capacity for the model at Subaru of Indiana Automotive Inc. will be 35,000 to 40,000 units, Adcock says.

The sport wagon will be based on a new car platform and use Subaru's traditional horizontally opposed engines.

Adcock says the platform is flexible enough to use for other vehicles, possibly a premium luxury car that "would be our flagship."

With the sport wagon in its lineup, Subaru expects sales to rise to 250,000 units in 2006, up from an expected 194,000 this year. Subaru sold 180,020 cars in the United States last year.

The vehicle will be priced in the mid-$30,000 range. "It would start at the upper end of the Outback and move up from there," Adcock says.

Subaru's highest priced model is the 3.0-liter, six-cylinder Outback with vehicle dynamic control and a four-speed electronic automatic transmission. It sells for $33,045 including destination.

Sport wagons are a fast-emerging segment that includes crossover models such as the Chrysler Pacifica, which went on sale this year, and the coming Mercedes-Benz GST.

But the premium-priced Pacifica has been a disappointing seller, forcing Chrysler to offer a $1,000 incentive on the vehicle just months after its introduction.

Adcock doesn't think the Pacifica's lukewarm reception shows a weak market for premium sport wagons. "There is no comparison between Subaru and Chrysler," he says. "We're a niche player very targeted in our approach and not mainstream in any shape or form."

The new Subaru will be available only in a seven-seat configuration. There will be two seats in front, three in the middle row and two in the back.

Adcock says that dealers and customers want the additional seating, and there is no reason to offer a five or four-seater.

Adcock also says Subaru will not offer a cheaper, front-wheel-drive version of the sport wagon. He says that would fly in the face of Subaru's positioning as a maker of only awd vehicles.

The base powerplant likely will be a six-cylinder, horizontally opposed boxer engine that makes 250 hp, Adcock says.

While a high output turbo version isn't planned, Adcock says, "That's not to say at some point in the future we won't look at additional performance."

Dealers were shown a prototype of the vehicle several months ago, says Michael Carr, sales manager for

Subaru of New England, an independent distributor for 59 Subaru dealerships.

"This is a necessary addition to the brand and will allow us to go to the next level of sales," Carr says. "It is something that our customers are very interested in and have been asking for a long time."

There goes the neighborhood. Starting at upper end of Outback pricing, $30-35k+. So long Subaru. Looks like they want to pull in the same cash as Audi.

Stupid, stupid, isn't that market filled enough with SUV's that already bear a name worthy of that cost?

If they started in the 26-28k range with a decent, not all too luxurious model I think it would fit better with the Subaru image. Pricing as they are trying to do will alienate a larger marketshare than they think I'm sure. A lot of WRX buyers can just decent afford it at ~$25k. Now think where they seem to want to go, the $30k + range. :(

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
I wish Subaru would pick a name for this thing.

:lol:

it suprises me that the pacifica isnt selling well. i see them all the time around here. the biggest gripe from owners seems to be the lack of power.

Hopefully the Subaru wont be as portly.

What most of those owners probably don't understand is it is really grossly overweight by a couple hundred pounds. There's a number of them around here by my. Wouldn't get caught dead in one. You can almost compare one of those to a Trailblazer EXT, both are friggin ugly. I hope Subaru doesn't use the B11S styling for this is all I'm saying. It will probably look more like the new Leg front end.

Didn't car companies used to show concepts years in advance, now all you see it the immediate forewarning.

By the looks of it (H-6 only,) it's going to be automatic only :furious:

I was hoping for the usual H-4/5-speed choice. It would have been the only 5-speed 7-seater in the US other than Suzuki XL-7 :(

Originally posted by vvk
By the looks of it (H-6 only,) it's going to be automatic only :furious:

I was hoping for the usual H-4/5-speed choice. It would have been the only 5-speed 7-seater in the US other than Suzuki XL-7 :( It sounds like it will have the same powertrain as the 3.0R Legacy and Outback, which means it will have a 5-speed automatic.

BMW's X5 3.0 is the only crossover to offer a manual, and they are as rare as hen's teeth.

As to pricing: shouldn't be a big surprise. Subaru has been saying for some time now that they wanted to be a "premium" carmaker.

Bob

Maybe Sportshift. That might be as close to MT as we'll get. The fact of the matter is the amount of people that would get an MT in it would be rather insignificant. That is about the only kinds of vehicles I buy, but for most of what would buy this kind of vehicle, they would be Auto drivers wanting the foot-off approach. It's too much work. That is what Subaru has to look at. It's the unfortunate fact of the matter.

I know several that were hoping for a very wagon-like approach in something that handles but can move 7 in a pinch. Doesn't sound like the deal.

Details are really sketchy still though, we'll just have to wait and see.

if the gas-electric hybrid concept might be a thinly disguised version of this new 7-passenger crossover? There's also a rumor out there that the new 7-passenger crossover might debut at Tokyo later this month. I wonder if these two might be one and the same?

Bob

If it is 'truck like' then mid $30's is probably a good place for it. Big trucks are pretty expensive. However, if they end up competing with the Honda mini-van they're going to be in trouble.

If it is truck like, then 250 hp is probably not going to be enough. I wish them the best of luck with it.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
I wish Subaru would pick a name for this thing.

I'm betting on "Surveyor," which is a name Subaru is test-marketing.

Bob

I, too, am somewhat surprised on the pricing. You can get a Honda Pilot for under $30k fairly well equipped. But, Subaru does seem determined to move upmarket. Hopefully the vehicle will still be the value that Subarus have traditionally been.j

Does anyone know how the Touareg is doing? VW is also moving upmarket and the Touareg starts at about $35k and goes on up to about $50k (!). That is only a 5 passenger vehicle, too. Although that is really an SUV and the Subarus is said to be a sports wagon. I can't wait to see what their interpretation of a sports wagon is in this case.

Jay

Originally posted by rsholland
I'm betting on "Surveyor," which is a name Subaru is test-marketing.Well, we know that FHI recently filed trademark applications in many countries (including US and Canada) for B9. Also, a few years ago when SOA was trying to name the Baja, they filed a bunch of pre-emptive trademark applications for other names, too. Most of those were allowed to lapse after SOA settled on Baja and are now dead. But SOA , for some unknown reason, is keeping two of those old trademark applications alive: Boulder and Adirondack.

What I see from many people is the disdain for subaru desiring to move upscale. This could be a huge discussion about that, but I'll save it for now.

I don't see anything wrong with this (except for my personal dislike of the new design). I have said several times with the new Legacy that there are many, many similarities to Subaru and Volvo. I think that isthe premium level that Subaru will be shooting for at least for now, but they will be able to maintain a more performance edge by keeping weight lower as they currently do. Likewise, the XC90- argueably class leader with winning several awards- starts at $34,800, and that's w/ a 208hp 2.5T & FWD. Optional 3rd row seat costs $1700 (self leveling rear & stuff added). Say, isn't there a 210hp/235tq 2.5T in subaru's arsenal? ;) Since the 210hp performs so well, maybe they wouldn't want to offer it as well as the H6 since the performance differential would be so different. It's not like there needs to be a performance variant of this to give the arguement of the Legacy being offered both. Offered at $35,000 with a 6 cylinder, lighter weight=better performance, & AWD makes it a pretty good value.

For a small 7 seater, I really would like to see them make one off the Impreza platform like the Zafira/Traviq. The packaging of that vehicle is amazing, and would be great competition to the Suzuki. The small minivan look wouldn't be too popular, but having a model like the Zafira GSi with its Recaro seats and 200hp 2.0T boosts the image considerably.

What the hell kind of name is "Adirondack"?!!

As for the 7-seater, I know that SUbaru has been having focus groups lately actually looking at the vehicle? Has anyone actually SEEN it and care to give some insight?

Originally posted by HB_Dad
What the hell kind of name is "Adirondack"?!!


:lol: Sounds a lot like "balyndraks" ;)

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
Well, we know that FHI recently filed trademark applications in many countries (including US and Canada) for B9.

Just a gut feeling on this, and nothing more; but I suspect that Subaru will stick with "names" for their adventurous, lifestyle vehicles like Outback, Forester, Baja and Surveyor(?). Whereas their "sporting" vehicles like the Impreza and Legacy will morph into B5 and B7, or something like that.

Note the not-so-sporty Justy is now called the "G3X Justy." On the vehicle's badging, "G3X" is large, and "Justy" is small. I suspect the next-generation of that model will be called the "G3," or if it's a boxer, "B3."

Bob

I just realized the #&%@! postal carrier failed to deliver my Autoweek again!

I was all pumped about the VW Touareg until they announced pricing of $35k for the entry model with the 235 hp V6. But, the offroad capabilities of that vehicle are still pretty awesome.

I have to agree with the others about the mid-30's pricing for the Subaru <??>. Seems too high when compared with what else is available, but details are still verrrrrry sketchy...

I remember the STi was going to be low $30's, and people thought that meant $33k. now they say mid-30's, and now it's an assumption of $35,000 base when it could actually be lower. As for "competition", the Pilot isn't a premium vehicle. The MDX would be the premium version of that, and it starts at $36,500. An AWD Pacifica is the best priced of them at $32,300. I would hope that they get the 3.7 w/ 300hp afterwards, because they will definitely need it to fully compete though not necessary for the startup.

I bet that the Subaru can come in with a curb weight of around 4000lbs- 800 more than the Legacy- which would beat everything else by at least 400lbs. I don't really understand why the Pacifica is so underpowered when others have similar power and weight. If the recent C&D preview of the Baja Turbo showed 0-60 in 7.3 seconds w/ about 3750lbs, I'm sure that the new H6 could do very well with 4000lbs to have class leading performance. The closest competitor performance wise would be an FX35 (5 seater though) with 4200lbs/280hp. Surveyor(?) would need to be 3750lbs to match that. Interesting how that would compare well to Infiniti just like the new Legacy to the G35. Too bad the BS11 looks will detract from everything else good about it.

Here's how I see where Subaru is going to line up with their future models:
Impreza = S40/V50 & 1 series
Legacy = S60/V70 & G35 & 3 series
Surveyor? = XC90 & FX35ish & X5 3.0
Surveyor based sedan = S80 & M45 & 5 series

Adcock says the platform is flexible enough to use for other vehicles, possibly a premium luxury car that "would be our flagship."


But isnt the WRX STI the flagship car?

Originally posted by LinuxGuy


But isnt the WRX STI the flagship car?

But not down the road. I'm sure Subaru is referring to a "luxury" flagship, probably more along the lines of a BMW 5-series level type of car.

Bob

But the premium-priced Pacifica has been a disappointing seller, forcing Chrysler to offer a $1,000 incentive on the vehicle just months after its introduction.

Lots of Pacificas on the lots here in Madison, WI. and this is an affluent market. I think there are three problems with the Pacifica, perception of low quality from Chrysler (somewhat justified), poor fuel mileage, and a very high price for what you get. Rebates and incentives are dropping the prices to $28K for a front driver, but you still don't see many on the road.

Subaru has a quality reputation going for it, but it has never been perceived as an "up-market" brand. Could be a difficult sell in the $35K range even if it's a great vehicle. How well is VW doing with it's up-market image? We'll have to see how the new Legacy sells when it hits the US.

I was at an auto show in Michigan this weekend and took a close look at the Pacifica. Comments from people looking at it were ranging from "too expensive" to "not much of an SUV". Is the American public really ready to embrace the crossover concept? Most people didn't think there was enough room inside, yet those same people would happily drive an Explorer.

Do your homework, boy.. VW SUV starts @40s...

Originally posted by SUBE555
There goes the neighborhood. Starting at upper end of Outback pricing, $30-35k+. So long Subaru. Looks like they want to pull in the same cash as Audi.

Stupid, stupid, isn't that market filled enough with SUV's that already bear a name worthy of that cost?

If they started in the 26-28k range with a decent, not all too luxurious model I think it would fit better with the Subaru image. Pricing as they are trying to do will alienate a larger marketshare than they think I'm sure. A lot of WRX buyers can just decent afford it at ~$25k. Now think where they seem to want to go, the $30k + range. :(

No, VW's start at $35,515. Yes, they are selling at quite a good clip -in those demographic areas that can support a niche vehicle such as the Touareg. If you have to ask how why is it so expensive, you haven't driven it...Wait for the 315hp/550ft lb TDI!!

Oh yeah, Subaru...If you build it, they will come. VW is building market share by offering an upscale product at a cutrate price. Subaru will need to do the same. Package, Price, Performance.

Remember this people, as well we think the WRX launch was - Pontiac sold more AZTEKS in the US last year. Fill the niche with a unique vehicle with demonstrable personality and enough people will buy it. ESPECIALLY with seven passenger seating which the Touareg does not have.

Here's hoping...I'll be ready to trade in my AWD T&C by then!

Geez, am I the only one who thinks that $35,000 for a AWD 7-passenger wagon/SUV is a fair price, especially when it is from Subaru? I don't know about all of you guys, but I am extremely stoked on this vehicle!!! I hope they show us some pics soon!!!

It is rumored that Subaru has been showing this vehicle in focus groups in the last several weeks or so. Can anyone who has attended these recent focus groups, please tell us if the car is cool or not!

Originally posted by HB_Dad
Geez, am I the only one who thinks that $35,000 for a AWD 7-passenger wagon/SUV is a fair price, especially when it is from Subaru?

For me, it depends on how far to either side of the wagon/SUV equation this thing lands. I don't need seating for 7, so if this turns out to be little more than a stretched Forester with the 3rd row, I'll take the Forester XT for ~10k cheaper. However, if the 7 seater has some serious offroad chops (ie ground clearance and approach/departure angles) along the lines of the Touareg or a Rover, that's another matter entirely. Unfortunately, the article keeps saying "sport wagon", which I already own in my WRX.

I'm keeping my eye on the Touareg V10s to start coming up used in 2-3 years. Having owned three VWs previously, $50k is just too nasty a pill to take for a VW, no matter what mill they have under the hood.

I'm not objectionable to Subaru's 7 passenger vehicle coming it at $35k so long as it is a good value at that price. I'm actually quite anxiously following its development. I'll likely replace my current 7 passenger vehicle ('01 VW EuroVan) with the Subaru as long as I like it enough.

I'm also anxious to see where it slots between wagon and SUV. Personally I'd like to see it more on the wagon end of the spectrum. I'd like to think that I don't have to give up enjoying driving my car just because it has 3 rows of seats.

Jay

Humm.
The wife is really interested in this car, but mid 30's seems really steep for a starting price. Looks like we might end up going with the Pilot (GREAT SUV, and I'm NOT an SUV fan)...unless of course I can convince her we don't need the two extra seats and get a turbo legacy wagon :banana:

Anyone else notice that the article said it would be built off of a NEW car platform...seems like the rumors of it being based off of the next gen Legacy are true.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Youth Director

mo

Originally posted by amdmaxx
Do your homework, boy.. VW SUV starts @40s...



Do my homework, boy? Excuse me? I didn't mention a damn thing about VW, not that I'd want one. VW is not a Subaru. Please read the post, read it again for good measure, then post, read again to check for accuracy before insulting.

Thank you, have a nice evening. :)

A couple of us (correctly) mentioned that the Touareg starts at $35k. Yes, he is the one that needs to do his homework.

Jay

Thanks for the backup Jay.

I just went on to the VW site and they say: 'Starts at $34,900.*'

:)

Does anyone have a current subscription to Autmotive News? They have two articles about the new 7 passenger, one with a list of suppliers (which can say a lot), another that may have pictures and a name.

BTW, $35 for a good, well appointed 7 passenger vehicle is not bad at all. It's when they are $35K and stripped that bugs the crap out of me. My wife's new vehicle search is a good example. We want seating for 7+, with at least 6K towing, and around $35K. Pickin's is slim.

Originally posted by _mo_
Anyone else notice that the article said it would be built off of a NEW car platform...seems like the rumors of it being based off of the next gen Legacy are true.I noticed this, but disagree with your interpretation.

Currently, Subaru has two platforms: the Impreza, which is classified as a compact; and the Legacy, which is classified as a midsize. The seven-seater will be built on an entirely new third platform, which will be classified as "Large Size" by Edmunds.com and "Full-Size" by Cars.com. The new-gen Legacy due here "soon" will continue to classified as a midsize.

So, what happened to the rumor that this was going to be yet *another* iteration of the damn Chevy TrailBlazer (that we see in everything from the Isuzu Ascender to the new Buick whatever-its-called)?

:confused:

Originally posted by Ghostrider600
So, what happened to the rumor that this was going to be yet *another* iteration of the damn Chevy TrailBlazer (that we see in everything from the Isuzu Ascender to the new Buick whatever-its-called)?

:confused: Maybe you're remembering the original plan to jointly develop the seven-seater with GM. That was abandoned. According to an interview with Takao Saito, SOA CEO, published on May 19, 2003 (see http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=363848):Q: GM CEO Rick Wagoner said this year that a proposal to develop a joint crossover vehicle went nowhere because Subaru wanted to use the horizontally opposed engine, your signature feature.

A: His comments were related to the seven-passenger car, which was called SGX. Frankly speaking, it's a difficult car to make, especially for the U.S. market. GM is more cost-oriented, and our direction is toward making a premium car. And there were different methods of developing cars costwise. I don't know the details. Fuji then said we would develop it by ourselves. We used parts of the original concept.

Subaru has had a 7 seater for a while, it's called the Traviq. If this comes to our shores with a 6 cyl I'd rock it as a 2nd car.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/syamada/web/traviq/images/mytraviq.jpg

Originally posted by PPower
For a small 7 seater, I really would like to see them make one off the Impreza platform like the Zafira/Traviq. The packaging of that vehicle is amazing, and would be great competition to the Suzuki. The small minivan look wouldn't be too popular, but having a model like the Zafira GSi with its Recaro seats and 200hp 2.0T boosts the image considerably.

http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/launch_pad/archive/vauxhall/zafira_gsi/vauxhall_29042003_4.jpg http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/launch_pad/archive/vauxhall/zafira_gsi/vauxhall_29042003_1.jpg http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/launch_pad/archive/vauxhall/zafira_gsi/vauxhall_29042003_2.jpg
http://www.carkeys.co.uk/images/v/vxzaf002.jpg http://www.migweb.co.uk/gallery/data/506/8135ZAFGSI.JPG?3493

I notice a similarity to what Subaru came up with for a small 7 seater that really looks like a photoshop of the HM-01 from a few years ago. Notice how similar even the color is. it would look a lot better if it weren't so stubby. (Forget about the chop I did on the right)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMTcxMzg2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
Maybe you're remembering the original plan to jointly develop the seven-seater with GM. That was abandoned. According to an interview with Takao Saito, SOA CEO, published on May 19, 2003 (see http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=363848):

Yup. That was it, thanks. ;)

Glad they killed that idea.

Got confused and started to have this in the upscale thread instead.


Subaru could offer a lower priced model as well for around $30,000 and appease those who feel the need. This could have the 2.5T w/ 210hp to line up perfectly with the base XC90, and price like the Honda Pilot (what I would currently buy if I were in the market for a 7 seater currently). Start it with cloth and no sunroof since those are pricey options. If the Subaru had lower weight than the others, the lower hp wouldn't be an issue. This would be like the Baja and Baja Sport. Subaru learned quickly that having only one model with full features didn't work for the Baja, and I wouldn't be surprised if they applied the same strategy to this.

A problem to offering the 210hp version will be the griping of "why didn't they use the 250hp version?" And as I wrote earlier (I think in this thread), having the two 250hp engines work for the Legacy cause one is more sport oriented.

I'll throw in a rsholland comment here and hope that this could have some decent towing capacity. Maybe we would have to wait for a 3.6L before that can happen, but Subaru really needs it especially with all the outdoorsy customers they have.

Originally posted by PPower
Got confused and started to have this in the upscale thread instead.


Subaru could offer a lower priced model as well for around $30,000 and appease those who feel the need. This could have the 2.5T w/ 210hp to line up perfectly with the base XC90, and price like the Honda Pilot (what I would currently buy if I were in the market for a 7 seater currently). Start it with cloth and no sunroof since those are pricey options. If the Subaru had lower weight than the others, the lower hp wouldn't be an issue. This would be like the Baja and Baja Sport. Subaru learned quickly that having only one model with full features didn't work for the Baja, and I wouldn't be surprised if they applied the same strategy to this.

A problem to offering the 210hp version will be the griping of "why didn't they use the 250hp version?" And as I wrote earlier (I think in this thread), having the two 250hp engines work for the Legacy cause one is more sport oriented.

I'll throw in a rsholland comment here and hope that this could have some decent towing capacity. Maybe we would have to wait for a 3.6L before that can happen, but Subaru really needs it especially with all the outdoorsy customers they have.

YES! If Subaru decided to go this route I would be very interested. I'm hoping that if this vehicle is done as a large wagon it's weight will be considerably less than other 7 passengers on the market right now. If that is the case a 2.5 turbo (hopefully around 250 hp), with no frills, priced around $30k would be perfect.

Tokyo Motor Show is from October 24- November 5th.

Less than 10 days away from the end of speculation?

Originally posted by _mo_

If that is the case a 2.5 turbo (hopefully around 250 hp), with no frills, priced around $30k would be perfect.

But my point is that 250hp version doesn't make sense. You would probably be disappointed if it got the 210hp version because you know there's another variant. We can hope though. I'm with you on this one. Now if they could just get another front end design...

Originally posted by Achilles38WRX
Tokyo Motor Show is from October 24- November 5th.

Less than 10 days away from the end of speculation?

I'd show this gas-electric hybrid concept, that's to debut at the Tokyo show, on a thinly disguised pickup (Grand Baja?) version of the new crossover. That way FHI would be able to get customer reaction on: (1) the new styling direction; (2) hybrid technology, as it would apply to Subaru products; and (3) as to whether the next-generation Baja should be based on the larger crossover platform.

This actually may happen, as the hybrid apparently has a dual-range tranny.

Bob

I think the Pilot is the chief problem. It's a great package at a great price from a great company.

The Volvo and the VW are more expensive, but I think Volvo and VW still have the edge when it comes to the quality of interior materials. Subaru would have to take it up a notch.

Maybe they will. Then again, it could be another Baja :D.

subaru can't beat Honda on value with this 7-pax just like they can't beat the value of the Accord with the Legacy- JDM or USDM. Subaru makes up for it with performance, and starting with a superior AWD system compared to all of those others (Pilot, MDX, FX35, XC90, etc) is a good start. If it can also have lighter weight, you're going to have some serious butt kicking performance. Oh, and what about SportShift? Bye bye Infiniti. I'm glad they may only see taillights cause I'm afraid the nose is going to be embarrassing.

The E Class Benz wagon again sets the bar on the classis 7 passenger car based wagon. If the new Subaru SUV platform ultimately yeilds a family of products like that of the E Class, then this vehicles development is worthy.

Subaru needs to move toward the MB E, BMW 5, Volvo 80 Audi A6 and the like. This new SUV platform could be the spring board to doing just that. Althought I suspect the fruit of these seeds are still 5 to 6 years out.

The New Mercedes-Benz E-Class Estate

High-tech innovations such as Active Light System and air suspension

SBC™ with 2 new convenience functions - Tailback Assist and Anti-stall Assist

EASY-PACK system for intelligent load compartment management
Optional hydraulic drive system for tailgate and load compartment floor

Variable interior with maximum load capacity of 1950 litres
Fuel saving of up to 0.4 litres per 100 kilometres

High-quality standard specification including automatic climate control and CD radio

Leading-edge technology, captivating design, high-quality specification and intelligent interior practicality, are the outstanding features of the new E-Class Estate that will appear in Mercedes dealerships in October 2003.



http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/news/aw/mer0310071amg.jpg
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/news/aw/mer0310071cmg.jpg
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/news/aw/mer0310071dmg.jpg

Subaru's new 3.7 liter H6 all wheel drive chassis would trump all but the higher output V8 german wagons which push upto and over the $60,000 US mark. Subaru could bring to market a fully equipped all-wheel drive wagon like this around $40,000, which would be right in line with the Volvo V70 wagon and new Chrysler Touring wagon

I didn't know there was anything with a rear facing seat anymore. One I forgot about is the Cadillac SRX. haven't taken too much of a look at it, but it could be interesting (though definitely not for me.)

Last spring when I talked to several people, they said the 7-passenger capacity of a vehicle wasn't a necessary every day thing, just like if they're carrying a few extra kids to soccer practice or whatever, things like that. For trips, 5 passenger is generally fine.

I always thought of that as an alternative 7-passenger configuration. After all, Subaru just doesn't do what everyone else does, think Baja, SVX, brat. If this bodes decently for Mercedes, it could fill a niche with Subaru and give them one of the most fun 5+2 passenger vehicles out there. It definietly would be an extended size platform, not a Legacy.

I do like the fact Merceds too the inititive.

Originally posted by PPower
I didn't know there was anything with a rear facing seat anymore.

The V70 Wagon's have a 3rd row rear facing seat option as well.

Now think about the poor kid facing backwards when dad get's hold of mom's V70R.

Originally posted by mh_WRX


The V70 Wagon's have a 3rd row rear facing seat option as well.

Now think about the poor kid facing backwards when dad get's hold of mom's V70R.

It's just like when they turn the cars around on your favorite roller coaster. You just don't feel the effects as much. :(

:lol:

Seeing that kid in the rear seat of the Mercedes reminds me of my moms old 60's Mercury Colony Park wagon. Used to love riding in the back as a kid. I thought they were considered too unsafe in a rear-end collision. Cuts your feet off at the shins:eek:

The new Legacy wagon is supposed to be worthy of the upcoming 50mph crash test ratings and perform well. I guess we'll just have to find out how they set up this new vehicle.

I HIGHLY doubt that SUbaru would go with the rear-facing "concussion seats". For one, rear faciing seats are not safe. Also, in that article, they seem pretty set on it being a full-time 7 seat vehicle. Typically, rear facing 3rd row seats are indicative of the third row being nothing more than an afterthought on an otherwise 5 passenger car. If they go rear facing on the 3rd row, I'm cancelling my plans to purchase the vehicle!!:mad:

Originally posted by SUBE555
The new Legacy wagon is supposed to be worthy of the upcoming 50mph crash test ratings and perform well. I guess we'll just have to find out how they set up this new vehicle.

Just out of curiosity, where did you read that?

IIRC it was either in the Legacy thread posted by username or another source or on the SOJ website. I believe it was mentioned in one of the areas dealing with structural design.

I want 3 rows of forward facing seats. As someone that would need the third row on a regular basis, and for potentially long trips, the rear facing third row doesn't really interest me.

What does everyone think of the Cadillac SRX? If we're talking about going upscale here it seems like decent competition to me.

Jay

I had mentioned the SRX because they call it a wagon even though its more of an SUV shape. I think it looks to have the goods, and that big sunroof is nice. The stadium seating looks to be a bit of a joke though. I'd rather have all the seats level and give more headroom/cargo room. I guess I ought to go to their site to check it out more.

I see absolutely no reason to believe that there would be a rear facing seat on this car. That could be an interesting approach for a redesigned Baja/Brat, but it still wouldn't make sense in that.

ok, i've done some shopping around to find out where I think the pricing should start for this car. I looked at 6 comparable vehicles. I'll split them up into 3 standard suv's and 3 premium suv's. All are the base price for the AWD or 4WD versions EXCEPT for the Cadillac which is RWD.

Standard:
Dodge Durango: $29,775
Ford Explorer: $29,155
Honda Pilot: $27,100

Premium:
Acura MDX: $36,400
Cadillac SRX: $38,690
Volvo XC90: $36,540

looking at these numbers, if subaru can place themselves right in the middle, say around $31 or $32k With features comparable to the Premium brands they should have a winner.

note: Some of these standard vehicles come VERY well equipped. For what I want on this type of vehicle I would not have to go above $29k for a Pilot, or above $30.5k for a Durango. I hope Subaru can keep the price down or I might be looking at one of these two SUV's...and the new 2004 Durango looks sweet.

Your Friendly Neighborhood Youth Director

mo

I'll hope to be surprised because I'm sure I'll eventually need a 7 seater.

I started to write that they can't make a 7 seater under $30,000, but I guess I'm wrong. The problem would be how much it would step on the toes of the Outback. After several edits to this, here's a two model "proposal" which is reasonable by looking at the Baja and Baja Sport and other models. I say the Baja because that's the only one that has had only one offering, and SoA realized that they had to offer a second model.

$30,000
=to Outback/Legacy wagonw/ leather, moonroof, 5EAT, VCD/VTC
2.5T 210hp/235tq (officially ;) )
4EAT
VCD
cloth
16" wheels
2 tone?

$35,000
3.0 H6 250hp/250tq (lower peak in actuality, but flatter curve)
5EAT Sportshift (better gearing & sporty)
VCD/VTC
leather
moonroof
17" wheels
monochrome paint

Pricing could be off because it has to take into account the price points of the other models, but it looks good to me. There would be plenty of upgrades to the more premium model to make it worth it, and the paint scheme helps separate them visually.

http://www.pickuptruck.com/IMAGES/2005/honda/Honda2005.jpg

This type of expansion from the new Subaru SUV would be a far better addition than the current Baja. Food for thought, Alpha1

Did anyone else notice that FHI's recent Japanese press release about what it intends to show at Tokyo omitted any mention of the Seven-Seater? I believe EVERY rumor that Subaru would it there all originated from that UK rag, Auto Express (http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/ae_news_story.php?id=40081), which was also touting a 3.6L(??) engine for it.

I haven't taken any stock in any AutoExpress report for a while.

Originally posted by Alpha1
http://www.pickuptruck.com/IMAGES/2005/honda/Honda2005.jpg

This type of expansion from the new Subaru SUV would be a far better addition than the current Baja. Food for thought, Alpha1

That's exactly what I was talking about in one of the Baja threads. Thanks for the backup username

mo

I thought I mentioned somewhere that I noticed that there was no 7 seater mentioned in the preview report of all that will be at the booth. I'm guessing that the most we'll find is some drawings.

That Honda truck makes so much more sense than the Baja, but we can so easily get off topic on this. Yes, making a truck variant of the 7 seater could be interesting or as Bob and I are discussing in another Baja thread, a GMC XUV type truck even.

Can someone explain how Honda's car-based truck is any better than the Baja?

Originally posted by balyndraks
Can someone explain how Honda's car-based truck is any better than the Baja?

Easy, it's bigger (based off the larger Pilot) and can do more (payload & tow).

Bob

While it has Accord looking lights, the hood shows me that this is based on the Pilot which is considerably bigger than the Baja. It's no Nissan Titan, but the larger size and capacity is a major plus. I would guess it to be about like a short bed Toyota T100. Then again, you're getting away from the car handling, step in height, etc. Maybe it's not better, but it's at least easier on my eyes if nothing else.

Something I just realized with the B9 is the showcase of off-road technology. We should hope and ask for these features to be added or available for the top level 7 passenger.

dual range tranny (a staple on all non-US Subie wagons)
variable height suspension
well integrated anti-chip plastic lower panels (Good ole Subaru paint ya know :rolleyes: )

These three things make it very similar to a non-US spec Audi AllRoad (we get dual range an manuals). On the larger side would be a comparison to the Porsche Cayenne/VW Touaraeg, but those are still 5 seaters. Those have very offroad capable, and an STi version w/ 350hp:4000lbs or 400hp:4600lbs would be the same power:weight as the Cayenne Turbo. It just will never compete with towing capacity I'm sure. :( I would love to see this kind of real capability with the practicality of the Volvo XC90. Best of all is this wouldn't have to affect the base model. Heck, even Porsche now sells a V6 Cayenne because they saw the need for it, so surely Subaru will take a hint and get a 2.5T model.

Yes, the B9 does have a dual-range tranny -- but is it a 5-speed manual, or an automatic? If it's an automatic, it's a Subie first, as they've never offered an automatic with the dual range tranny before.

Hmmm.. time to go check those interior shots and look for a clutch pedel...

Bob

I didn't see any pixs that showed the pedals, but the gear shift looks like an automatic unit. I didn't see the dual-range lever, however. Maybe it's electric, and operated by a switch or button?

Bob

Now that is the size the Baja should have started with in the first place. My main gripe is it's lack of size and towing. Something on that size would probably have gone over significantly better, also do to the fact it would have had a larger, more powerful engine to start with.

At least someone has the right concept.

Use the same larger chassis for the SUV/7-Pax and truck-like model (can't call it Baja because it's on a different chassis.) Would probably have gone over far better.

Originally posted by PPower
http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/launch_pad/archive/vauxhall/zafira_gsi/vauxhall_29042003_4.jpg http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/launch_pad/archive/vauxhall/zafira_gsi/vauxhall_29042003_1.jpg http://www.hoot-uk.com/content/launch_pad/archive/vauxhall/zafira_gsi/vauxhall_29042003_2.jpg
http://www.carkeys.co.uk/images/v/vxzaf002.jpg http://www.migweb.co.uk/gallery/data/506/8135ZAFGSI.JPG?3493



I just skimmed through this thread, and these aren't actual Subaru created vehicles. The Traviq is just a rebadged Vauxhaull--GM Europe. It appears to be the first model sharing/badge replacing between GM and Subaru.

Vauxhall Zafira (http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/brand.jhtml?brand=Zafira&vehicleType=Car)

And here's the turbo version. (http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/summary.jhtml?brand=Zafira&trimLevel=GSi&bodyStyle=5-door%20MPV&vehicleType=Car&_requestid=261654)

Sorry if its WTLW, but I didn't see it mentioned.

The Honda truck is definitely a better looking "truck" than the Baja, and we can guess at it's size from the Pilot platform underpinning it, but what else has been released on it?

What are its dimensions?
and powerplant?
and driveline(s)?

and any further reports of Honda's plans to actually make it?

Kinda reminds me less of a truck and more of the GM-Aus Holden "Utes" and the old El Camino, which in modern form may mean better, more car-like handling with unibody construction for lighter weight/better gas & performance and independent suspensions? Maybe?

http://www.pickuptruck.com/IMAGES/2005/honda/Honda2005.jpg


It definitely looks better, and is seemingly a better design in that it's larger and thus more practical. Which, should mean it'd be a better seller...if design and sales are related...

Originally posted by Ghostrider600
The Honda truck is definitely a better looking "truck" than the Baja, and we can guess at it's size from the Pilot platform underpinning it, but what else has been released on it?I'm sorry but I've lost any, even remote, connection to the Subaru seven-seater. I'm sure that the Off-Topic forum would be happy to entertain any Honda discussions.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
I'm sorry but I've lost any, even remote, connection to the Subaru seven-seater. I'm sure that the Off-Topic forum would be happy to entertain any Honda discussions.

Remote?

Subaru had better make an equivalent or better option as it seems their competitors are in the market, first with the Pilot, now with the truck as Baja competitor...

Besides, I didn't start the Honda Truck line of thought, I just commented on it. So take it up with Alpha1...

And besides, this very thread has rambles about Colony Park rear-facing seats and 50mph crashes, why become the OT Nazi now? :confused:

Originally posted by Ghostrider600
Remote?

Subaru had better make an equivalent or better option as it seems their competitors are in the market, first with the Pilot, now with the truck as Baja competitor... Yeah, remote. I don't believe FHI considers any Honda whatever to be competitive with their new seven-seater. If they did, why would they even bother?

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
I don't believe FHI considers any Honda whatever to be competitive with their new seven-seater.

If they did, why would they even bother?

I'd assume they're bothering to come out with a 7-seater precisely b/c they've seen all their competitors doing it and they think there's profit to be had in that market that they're missing out on...

Originally posted by matt in fl
I just skimmed through this thread, and these aren't actual Subaru created vehicles. The Traviq is just a rebadged Vauxhaull--GM Europe. It appears to be the first model sharing/badge replacing between GM and Subaru.

Vauxhall Zafira (http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/brand.jhtml?brand=Zafira&vehicleType=Car)

And here's the turbo version. (http://vauxhall.co.uk/showroom/search/summary.jhtml?brand=Zafira&trimLevel=GSi&bodyStyle=5-door%20MPV&vehicleType=Car&_requestid=261654)

Sorry if its WTLW, but I didn't see it mentioned.

I sure thought I mentioned that the Zafira wasn't a Subaru. :confused: Still, Subaru was working on an AWD system to fit on it. They used it as their initial step w/ a 7 pax vehicle like Honda using the Passport before the Pilot. BTW, Vauxhall is GM UK, not Europe. Elsewhere in EU is an Opel. The Zafira GSi is exclusive to UK.

"A simplification would be to describe it as a cross between a Subaru Outback and a Honda Odyssey. It's a recreational type seven-seater. I guess it competes with existing seven-seaters, but it's not a truck and it's not a people-mover.

OK, so it sounds a bit like the Pacifica. A large wagon that's not really SUV and not really a minivan. I guess I'll have to change that in my mind from a XC90ish thing to this. Thanks for the clarification. Somehow this makes more sense with Subaru kindof the anti-SUV company while somehow a bit disappointing. Now I REALLY hope it has an adjustable height suspension. This would also mean that the B11S styled SUV is completely wrong.

I followed the long term test of the Zafira GSi turbo in EVO awhile back. They seemed to like its performance and handling, though it had some electrical niggles that caused the vehicle to not start at random intervals!

www.evo.co.uk may still have some road test information available for it.

Maybe I'm an elitist, but I think Subaru should take the proper time and plan their own model and not try to fit their running gear to a GM product. The current Zafira came about quickly since the previous generation was the horrible Chevrolet Venture short wheelbase model! I'm sure Subaru has the technology and engineering capability to design a proper mpv.

Just a random thought, how similar do you think the new 7 seater is going to be to the WX-01 or the "Exiga" concept vehicles? I always liked a lot of aspects of the WX-01. Anyway, the other night, I got bored and tried imagine would the WX-01 would look like with the B11S grille, figuring that both must be at least somewhat accurate to the future design of 7 seater. In the end, in Photoshop I wound up mocking up the idea by putting the B11S grill on the front of the WX-01. Although my Photoshop skills are crap (sorry about the crappy pasting and blending job), the idea came through pretty good. In the end, I'd say that if this were the look of the vehicle, it doesn't look half bad at all. Anyway, some say the 7 seater looks kind of Murano like, so this might not be far off...

Thoughts?

Don't forget that the WX-01 (after you got past all the triangles) was usually described as a 5+2. I don't think that's what SOA has in mind for the US market.

Trying to put myself in the shoes of Subaru's product-planning/image-maker honchos...

Okay, here's what we know so far, all of which are rumors:

• To be built on a larger car-based platform, which may (or may not) evolve from the next Outback.

• Subaru is moving on to become to a premium carmaker, with this crossover being the first Subaru display Subaru's definition of what "premium" means.

• This crossover will be the first Subaru to debut their "new look."

• There have been rumors of both a 3.0 and 3.6 H-6.

• It could a cross between a Chrysler Pacifica-like vehicle and a Honda Pilot/Acura MDX.

• There have been rumors, from the European press, that it could be more off-road ready than any current Subaru.

That's pretty much it, as far as I know. However, with what we have just learned from what Subaru is going to display at the Toyko Motor show, there could be an interesting twist here.

My guesses are:

• I think it will have B9/R1e front end styling, as opposed to the the B11S. I suspect the B9/R1e's squared off grille will be easier for the public to digest, than the triangular B11S grille shape.

• This crossover will be the last to the "party," so to speak, so it better have something really unique that no one else has. If it's just another "me-too" effort, it will do nothing to polish that "premium" image Subaru wants to establish. Adding Lexus-like accoutrements and AWD won't cut the mustard, IMO. All these vehicles in this class have those features. So what does Subaru do to be different—and to be BETTER?

• I think we will see two engines: the rumored 3.6 H-6, and a 3.0 H-6 gas-electric hybrid. The B9 sports car concept is a 2.0 H-4 hybrid putting out 140 HP from the gas engine. If you add two cylinders to that you get a 3.0 210 HP engine, plus whatever power the electric engine adds.

Offering a 3.0 H-6 hybrid will do several things: It will establish Subaru as a leader in the hybrid market, thus polishing that "premium" image. The audience for crossovers (as well as minivans, and mainstream sedans) I think will be very receptive to this kind of eco-friendly powerplant.

Lexus has announced that there will be hybrid version of their new RX330 shortly. Acura's all-new RL and NSX reportedly may have both AWD and hybrid power. If Subaru's new crossover offers a gas-electric hybrid engine option too, it will instantly be thought of in the same breath as Lexus and Acura; not bad company to be associated with, as well as instant "premium carmaker" status...

One final comment: The B9 "sports car" has a dual-range tranny and height adjustable suspension. Sounds like it was engineered more for the crossover, if you ask me. ;)

Bob

rsholland, I think your ambitions for a hybrid (SSHEV) seven-seater are overly optimistic. There's just not enough time between now and the introduction of the seven-seater to the US in mid-2005 (according to SOA VP Adcock at the start of the thread).

Obviously, one of the most crucial aspects for hybrid success is the battery system. As you may (or may not) recall, FHI announced its manganese lithium ion battery development joint venture with NEC on May 14, 2002. In that announcement, http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/press/2002/02_05_14.htm, FHI said this about the new battery company:The company expects to prove actual performance and to determine scheme of production within 3 years.So, FHI was only hoping to "determine a scheme of production" by May, 2005, not to actually start building production cars that rely on the batteries by May, 2005. It's conceivable that the joint venture, NEC Lamilion Energy, Ltd., is now very far ahead of that announced schedule, but I doubt it.

The first production deployment of the SSHEV (Subaru's name for its hybrid powertrain) caries a high risk and will likely occur first only in small volumes and within a well-understood market, such as the friendly confines of the JDM. Did you notice that a propane-powered Legacy will soon go into production and be sold to a very limited segment of the Japanese market? The same will happen first for the SSHEV before we see it in the US.

In any event, the seven-seater will be based on a platform much more like that of the B11S than the smaller B9. I wouldn't mind seeing the engine that was fitted to the B11S (twin turbo H6 3.0) used in the new seven-seater. It's probably MUCH closer to production status than the SSHEV.

Originally posted by LinuxGuy
But isnt the WRX STI the flagship car?

No, the WRX is the flagship performance car for Subaru. The problem with the company is that they don't really HAVE a flagship car. This isn't a problem with luxury marques like M-B or BMW, but generally, manufacturers want to have a "gee, whiz" car that makes the masses aspire to it. The STi ain't it, as impressive as the car is.

How do I know it ain't it? Because I don't want one. :lol:

Kevin

Yes, Subaru is confusing/confused. At the moment they consider the Outback H6 variants (I guess the VDC in particular) to be the Subaru "flagship" car, which I DON'T aspire to own. I really want a high-powered 6-cylinder sleek Legacy, not a jacked-up body-cladded Outback. I've got ~97K miles on my current Legacy wagon and Subaru had better come through with at least a Legacy 3.0R for the US very soon. Or else.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
rsholland, I think your ambitions for a hybrid (SSHEV) seven-seater are overly optimistic. There's just not enough time between now and the introduction of the seven-seater to the US in mid-2005 (according to SOA VP Adcock at the start of the thread).

It may not be ready for the introduction, but I bet it's on the horizon. I just can't believe Subaru would go to the trouble of engineering a hybrid sports car with a dual-range tranny and height-adjustable suspension.

The crossover is an '06 model. They could have one ready (even with limited production) I would think for the '07 model year without too much trouble. A 2007 model fits within their stated time frame.

Bob

I'll agree that the seven-seater platform is probably being designed to accomodate an SSHEV powertrain and its batteries (I imagine the FHI/NEC joint venture has settled on the batterys' physical dimensions by now) and will likely be the first platform that FHI sends to the US equipped with SSHEV. But a 2007 MY Subaru is just too far out on the "horizon" for me to worry about now.

Yep it's a long ways off, I will admit that.

Part of my thinking here is that this crossover will be the last to the party, so it had better be the best dressed. Having a hybrid, at least as a (distant?) option, will do that. It's also good -- if for no other reason -- braggin' rights. :p

One other thing: I too rely a lot on what's been released in the press and/or stumbled upon. I also look at Subaru's past history (as to how they've released new products), as well as to try to read between the lines. That's how I come up with these often wacky predictions. I was right about predicting the 2.5 STi, and 2.5 Forester XT, so maybe (?) I've got another winner here. ;)

Bob

It appears that the new Subaru SUV will ride the line between the MDX and Pacifica. That's not a bad place to be, both of these vehicles have some excellent qualities.

Subaru's new 3.7L H6 engine should out class the Honda and Chrysler 3.5L V6's.

The area than Subaru could take a significant advantage over it's competitors, is in vehicle weight. If Subaru can produce this vehicle with a 200 to 250 lb weight advantage over the MDX with the additional power of the new H6 engine, Subaru is guaranteeing superior performance in acceleration, braking and cornering.

The Pacifica is currently noted for it lack of power considering that it's several hundred lbs heavier than the MDX. So out performing it comp should not be a problem.

This leaves us with one major questions. Will the have an appealing design that's mainstream enough to have wide market acceptance and unique enough to establish Subaru's up and coming bloodline. I have no idea, we will all Know in a few days, when the wraps come off the SUV at the Tokyo auto show.

I have know worries in regard to Subaru's ablility to engineer superior vehicles, What will it look like?

I know she's nice, smart and easy to get along with, is she cute?

I no longer think it will debut at Tokyo. All recent Tokyo show postings don't indicate that. If it does show up, I'd be very surprised... I think Subaru at the Tokyo show will just show the latest B9/Re1/R2 concepts, with the new design direction, for more feedback.

My (revised) guess is the crossover will debut either at Detroit, in January, or at New York in late March. NY, IMO, would make the most sense. That will give the US-spec Legacy/Outback the most exposure without having the crossover being a distraction. Also, the NY show is the last big US show, and would give the crossover the proper attention it would deserve, since it's supposed to hit the streets the following fall.


Bob

I hope that the delay will yeild us a better looking vehicle as SUbaru continus to explore the new face.

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/tokyo/preview/honda-concepts/images/honda-asm1.jpg

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/tokyo/preview/honda-concepts/images/honda-asm5.jpg

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/tokyo/preview/honda-concepts/images/honda-asm4.jpg

Nice interior, Love the wood application, would be just as effective in brush aluminum.

http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2003/tokyo/preview/honda-concepts/images/honda-asm3.jpg

I think either NAIAS or LA Show.

One of three scenarios:

1. It WILL show at the show next week and is being kept as a surprise.

2. Not til January show as some previous speculation indicates.

3. As to not given the competition too much prior notice, they may wait until up to a year before the model goes on sale to unveil the vehicle, thus keeping the competitive edge.

What pisses me off is that they have had focus groups showing the vehicle recently, and all of those people in it probably are nowhere NEAR as anxious to see it as many of us on this board are, yet THEY got to see it!!! :mad:

Originally posted by HB_Dad
What pisses me off is that they have had focus groups showing the vehicle recently, and all of those people in it probably are nowhere NEAR as anxious to see it as many of us on this board are, yet THEY got to see it!!! :mad:

:lol: That's why they were good people to get to see it in all seriousness.