http://www.chargedperformance.com/images/AquaTek.Announcement.jpg

After significant work Aquamist and EcuTek will be jointly offering water injection solutions for Subaru owners, bringing value, performance and reliability that until now could only be accomplished by the most skilled DIY enthusiasts. Through Aquamist, Charged Performance has worked to bring this melding of technologies to reality. Look for more information as development continues and these solutions are brought to you by Charged Performance in 2004.

Charged Performance already provides quality Aquamist kits for those using interceptor and piggy-back based engine management. Customers of Charged Performance receive complete support for all Aquamist applications. These systems are in-stock and available today from www.ChargedPerformance.Com

See sales thread for pricing of current systems.

Ed.
sales@chargedperformance.com

Water injection information:
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum

Excellent news.

im a bit confused... how much for the package of ecutek and injection?

Sounds great! Keep us posted.

wrxtrev - that is to be determined - I would expect further details in January and deliveries in late March. This is a pre-release of the announcement to be made at SEMA - EcuTek personnel will be present at the Aquamist booth. It is too early for more details.

Based on testing with Xede - it is almost a certainty that you can build a VF-30/34 package with just the turbo, reflash and water injection - saving tons of money over tuning methods using expensive upgraded intercoolers, injectors and fuel pumps.

The current kits are for sale come with full support from Charged Performance for those with UTEC, XEDE or other user-tunable fuel and ignition management, up to and including stand-alone systems. (PS - the support comes regarding specific use and installation of the kit and general tuning guidelines - the specifics of using UTEC or XEDE are left to those who deal in those units.)

Ed.
sales@chargedperformance.com

Water injection information:
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum

This sounds interesting and exciting, keep us up to date as it develops............:banana:

:confused:

I've known this was coming for a couple months now.....:devil:

Should be a pretty slick setup.

Now if they could just get the sti stuff together.

Kevin

The really nice thing is where other kits say that running out of water, the pump heat locking, getting a blocked jet or a cut hose is part of the risk of water injection this system will have fault detection accompanied with fault responses to negate the risks of sudden sever detonation.

This is the very nature of risk - a small chance of occurrence but a huge cost when it does.

Consider a child that asks to sit in the front seat before they are old enough or large enough - yeah the chances of something happening are small - but if they do happen you may be coming home without a kid.

Similarly, the chance a conscientious driver not keeping the water tank filled is small, the chance of a cut hose is small, properly installed the chance of heat locking your pump is small, the chance of a blocked jet is small (actually it is not that small when you consider what heat may or may not do to the detergent that many people choose to run through their systems - the water and methanol can evaportate off but the detergent could remain and cake the jet) - but if one of these small chance events do occur and there is not a quick response you may be coming home without your motor. The result is not bumping up against the knock threshold in such a way that the ECU or other timing controller can just pull timing like it normally does - properly tuned timing response strategies will not be enough to save the engine when it is running at 20psi and 12.5 AFR without water injection.

Our Aquamist 2d comes with ERL's proprietary fault detection and our customers benefit from our knowledge and experience in implementing this detection for use in automated responses to protect the engine from detonating. The aquamist race pump is also less likely to heat lock than any other pump used in water injection.

2d's in stock and ready to ship.

Ed.
www.chargedperformance.com
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum

Bump.

So, I'm not exactly following how ecutek integrates with the aquamist WI...will the ecutek reflash control the aquamist HSV? If so, is that a completely new 3D map dedicated to controlling that aquamist solenoid?

Or is it merely bundled together as a package?

I mean, how is this different than me installing my 2D kit, followed sometime later by getting an ecutek reflash/tune to take advantage of my WI?

The details are still being worked through as development is continuing and this is an announcement that EcuTek has decided to partner with Aquamist based on the results of their testing over the last several weeks. Just a clarification for others, I will now answer your questions as best as I can based on what is known. I apologize if it remains incomplete but this is a development in progress.

As everyone knows EcuTek is modifying the maps of the OEM ECU, it does not add any additional logic or maps and this project will not alter that. So no there will be no new map controlling the Aquamist high speed valve. To the extent that Aquamist uses the IDC of the #1 injector as a reference for the cycling of the high speed valve is the only extent to which the reflash controls the HSV.

In its simplest terms one could describe this as being bundled together as a package. However, there will be additional components that are not available with either system, such as integration of the fault sensing of the fia2 with the ECU to provide automated responses to fault signals. If the fia2 senses a fault the ECU will respond appropriately to the changed condition to prevent knock from occuring while the fault exists. Other components not available currently with either product will also exist to improve control and provide information regarding the water injection system.

The integration and additional components will be one difference between buying the 2d and then getting a reflash taking advantage of the water injection system. Another will be the reflash will be based on EcuTek's extensive testing of the kit to take advantage in the reliable way that EcuTek has been providing for all its tuning. Certainly if you were to get a reflash currently from a tuner that fully appreciates the benefits and risks of water injection and is willing to develop the maps taking advantage of the system it would be possible to get similar results. Though you or your tuner would still need to develop the integrating components.

The end product will of course be able to upgrade as necessary any existing implementations of Aquamist, including upgrading for instance a system 1s to 2d and adding of components to make use of this particular EcuTek set of tunes.

I hope this has provided some additional insight into the eventual product. Any incompleteness or vagueness is the nature of the product development still being in progress.

Ed.
www.chargedperformance.com
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum/

Fair enough. Its still pretty vague to me but basically it seems there will be some additional features provided with the combo that you can't currently get right now.

Now my question is, I have an aquamist 2D kit, no ecutek yet. Will I need any additional hardware from aquamist, or is this mostly on ecutek's side of things? Will I need to wire things differently?

You can combine the two products now to produce the desired results. The additional components will be available through Charged Performance since I am the one developing the components with Aquamist. It has not been fully determined yet but full functionality with existing systems may be dependent on the production date of the fia2. Those details will all be ironed out before release next year.

Ed.
www.chargedperformance.com
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum/

So there is going to be a new version of the fia2? Any hints on what additional features it might have over the current fia2?

Aquamist is always expanding and improving their product line. There is no new version of fia2 at this time. The calibration of the sensitivity of the blocked jet and cut hose diagnostics have been altered slightly as feedback has been received. Primarily the change reduces false fault indications on especially long runs under high boost (the light may indicate a fault late in a long run when one does not exist).

Aquamist continuously receives feedback from their customers through their dealers and as they do new products are the result and will be announced as they occur.

For instance much of our work this summer initiated some ideas that are on the wish list for future products when they are released.

The cut-and-dried question for me, in regards to water/alcohol injection, is not if it works, but how fast can the ecu cut boost if the aquamist system indicates a fault?

All the methods that we use in response to faults adjust for the lack of proper water injection immediately. If you are using a boost cut it will depend on how fast the wastegate can dump boost.

$100 (Fuel Pump) + $365 (STI Injectors) < $474 for the cheaper aquamist kit.

I don't get it. Wouldn't it be more interesting to attempt this with the above mods to get even more power?

Most turbo upgrades also recommend an upgraded intercooler, which requires an upgraded hoodscoop and splitter. Tack on another $1,000 to complete the recommended supporting mods for a VF-30/34.

Also when the systems are purchased with our VF-30's the implied price of the water injection systems is much lower.

It is already being done with the above mods and the power is increased solely through the additional flow of air. The tuning to date has been great and a lot of gains have been made, but some of the power that should be being generated by these stages is being sapped by the overly rich fuel conditions inhbiting the late stage oxidation of CO where a significant portion of the power from combustion is released.

Most turbo upgrades can not be optimized without some form of knock suppression, fuel will and has worked to suppress knock. However, water is a much better knock suppressor due to its high specific and latent heat. Additionally while overly rich fuel settings inhibits the release of energy from combustion, water encourages it.

My paper on water injection covers it very well with independent research behind it:

http://www.turboice.net/?documents/turbowhitepaper/title.htm

This is becoming a technical topic on water injection in general rather than discussing the particular kits being sold here. There is a good thread started with more participants for discussion here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=424462

Also for even more broad discussion of water injection our forum will provide access to people with experience in water injection accross many applications and makes:

http://www.turboice.net/forum

This is not for everyone. The complexity of an additional system, the added complexity in tuning, the monitoring and the maintenance are not for some people. Other than the amount of fuel being dumped into and out of the engine uncombusted and the resulting fuel bills, fuel dumping does work with more of a set and forget type of use. But it will result in less power. It is a trade-off the user must decide on, preferably with a full understanding of the difference between the two.

By the way you have located very good delivered prices for those two items.

Ed.
www.chargedperformance.com
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum

Originally posted by CannonBaller
$100 (Fuel Pump) + $365 (STI Injectors) < $474 for the cheaper aquamist kit.

I don't get it. Wouldn't it be more interesting to attempt this with the above mods to get even more power?

WI allows you to lean out fuel quite a bit. There was a guy running stock fuel system , stock intercooler with his only mod a 16G pushing 310+ whp.

Good feedback HairyWrx, would you happen to have a link?

By the way that would be a very aggressive use of water injection. Our estimates are that with water injection and 12.5:1 AFR, the OEM WRX injectors should be good for around 360 BHP without going static ~85-90% IDC.

This as opposed to well established 300 BHP available at 11:1 AFR. Above 300 BHP the injectors begin to go static and the AFR leans to around 12:1 by redline. The knock suppression of water injection in the induction charge and in the cylinder, plus the improved combustion with water injection extend the usability of the stock injectors.

To be on the safe side once you want over 360 BHP we would recommend an injector upgrade, even if others have been able to extend it further. Our opinion is that control over fueling becomes uncertain at high rpm and high load over this BHP point due to going static. However with the WI you can get just the STi injectors and go much further with them - eliminating the need for mega injectors that have poor idle qualities without stand alone management.

Ed.
www.chargedperformance.com
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=4354452&highlight=water+AND+injection+AND+stock+AND+inject ors#post4354452

This is with his homemade WI kit - either way, water injection works.

He does have upgraded manifold, but whatever, everything else other than the turbo is stock.

Yes, NBS has done some really good things with his DIY. He is also catless - ;) Point being that he has extended the usability of many stock components that would have had to otherwise been replaced for much more money if he wasn't on water injection.

Additional SEMA announcement regarding another engine management partnership.

http://www.chargedperformance.com/images/aquaxede.announcement.jpg

I know still a bit vague but it shows that there are good things to come in 2004.

Ed.
www.chargedperformance.com
www.turboice.net
www.turboice.net/forum

bump for move.

-Nick

Nick, thanks for the new forum and for moving the thread for me.

Ed.

So whats the latest on the availability timeframe for this pkg?

I would look for it a month or two after EcuTek finishes cracking the STi ECU - that is their primary focus. This partnership and bundling is a new secondary endeavor - but they will not allow it to interfer with delivering their primary product as soon as practicable.

I realize that is a really soft answer but other than their own announcement of May for the STi - I don't have harder information to provide.

bump!
please keep us updated!

Hey guys!

I have a few important questions, because I want to get an Aquamist set-up pretty soon.

I currently have a JDM STI converted WRX. I have the JDM ECU running with an Ecutek Reflash. What do I need to make WI work for me?

What additional tuning is going to be required in order to safely run the 2D set-up? I have a large MRT top-mount, and want to keep my current intercooler, but as soon as temp. goes up outside... the car suffers... big time.

What do you reccomend for me??? I really want something soon! Summer is here!!!

Thanks!

Matt

From the look of things since SEMA last year and given the time that has passed I would say that any joint effort on specific circuitry has been put on hold.

However, the 2d is generic and connects to the OEM ECU and operates as intended.

Using water injection your tune will be able to run leaner fuel settings and more timing advance (and with enough WI it would need it or your car would bog). Very broadly the tune would look more like a race gas tune than it does now - specifically it is adjusting the water flow, fueling and timing to arrive at the level of tune you are looking for from more powerful with reliability and stability all the way to the ragged edge if that is what you want.

The best way to provide for system monitoring is the DDS2. For those most serious about utilizing water injection to achieve optimal knock free tunes, I would recommend the system 2d, a 100cc accumulator and the DDS2.

David @ EcuTek responds to my query in the EcuTek forums:

This was in fact something that was more to do with Richard Lamb at Aquamist than EcuTeK.

We experimented a lot with WI as a project for Aquamist and I have known Richard for many years and used WI extensively.

Richard's practice (and that adopted by many WRC Rally teams) is to map an engine knowing that it will be running WI at all times. This will involve running high EGT, advanced timing and lean AFRs. Then use the water to stop the engine self destructing. If this is done properly then the engine will make good power. In fact the WRC teams use this technique as a weight saving device because if the engine is mapped correctly the extra water carried on board is more than offset by the reduction in fuel consumption.

What we proposed was to use a map switch ROM file to run high and low boost. On low boost the AFR mapping would be "normal" but if the WI was set to switch on at 1bar (for example) then when the boost map was switched to allow more than 1bar boost, the higher air flow section of the fuel map would be set to use leaner AFRs, the WI would switch on at 1 bar and the engine would make good safe power.

All of the tuners have the facility for map switching so anyone is capable of doing this for themselves.

We did do a lot of testing along this route and certainly Richard's system now has flow monitoring which in the event of the water running out could be made to operate the map switching and lower the boost.

However we felt that it did not offer significant performance advantages and also increased complexity because of the linking of the WI to the ECU to operate map switching.

How happy would you be to map an engine to settings knowing that it will definitely self destruct unless the WI is running?

I have used WI for many years on many cars and found it to be an excellent additional intercooler and a brilliant anti-knock device, but have not mapped a car using water as an integral part of the combustion process.

Hope this helps and apologise for any confusion which has occurred because of our work with Aquamist.

too bad. :(

WI i think will be almost exclusively in the domain of the DIY for many years to come.

I have been reading far too many threads on power tuning and am interested in seeing someone offering a alternative approach to the 99.9999% of the current tuning method... more boost followed by more fuel followed by bigger turbo and followed by bigger injectors... - things haven't changed much - The whole market is full of tuning aids - from interceptor piggybacks to total reflash - the tuning path is the same everytime.

I wouldn't be surprised if Aquamist brings out a tuning controller themselves. Having tried hard to work with many levels of ECU-tuning companies for many years without any success. Their bold approach to "fuel trim for power" is not acceptable for the faint-hearted CEOs. Most modern tuners are reluctant to change even they have all the tools.

Aquamist has been working on the WI failsafe detection sensor for many years and has made an excellent water flow sensing device to accompany their WI products. Aquamist now has all the tools to make water injection safe! There is absolutely no reason to continue to run over-rich mixture to stop the engine from self-destruction. WI injection is not a cure for all but will replace the necessity of bigger intercooler, bigger injectors, bigger turbos... bigger... - it comes pretty close to a cost effective solution for a moderest power gain.

If such an integrated WI system is offered, it will be for all makes of cars for sure. They have gathered a huge amount of knowlege behind them over the past ten to fifteen years on rally engines to aircraft engines as well as having the technical ability in both electronics and mechanical design - if anyone is going to make this integration possible, it will be from Aquamist themselves.

Just my opinion and hope it happens soon

How happy would you be to map an engine to settings knowing that it will definitely self destruct unless the WI is running?

Actually, I'm pretty happy. Can ya tune an ecutek for 100 octane? What if the fuel someone got wasn't as good as what they normally got? What if an injector in the fuel system failed? What if an intercooler blew a tube, a spark plug got fouled, or all the coolant in the radiator went by by? It's like he's assuming that the water injection kit will fail. A tire popping on a car going fast enough in the right situation could kill someone(or even a bunch of people), but we still use rubber tires....

peace

He's not reading this thread, BTW. If you want to comment on the quote, you'd be better off registering in the EcuTek forums. I suspect the effort will be in vain anyway.

I don't have an ecutek reflash anyways, and wasn't trying to egg him on into doing what he already said he wouldn't. Just felt like griping a little(like always)....eh

peace

There was enough interest that Ecutek explored it fairly deeply (deeply enough to agree to the SEMA announcement though a bit premature maybe) - there are differing conclusions even within Ecutek. The fact is that Ecutek like any business has a model and things that they see as advancing that model and things that would be a departure or at a minimum distracting to that model. Just because Ecutek is not pursuing it doesn't mean Ecutek dealers aren't (not necessarily a US one though).

This is one tool of many that can be used or not as appropriate for the tuner and customer.

There was enough interest that Ecutek explored it fairly deeply (deeply enough to agree to the SEMA announcement though a bit premature maybe) - there are differing conclusions even within Ecutek. The fact is that Ecutek like any business has a model and things that they see as advancing that model and things that would be a departure or at a minimum distracting to that model. Just because Ecutek is not pursuing it doesn't mean Ecutek dealers aren't (not necessarily a US one though).

This is one tool of many that can be used or not as appropriate for the tuner and customer.

I tend to agree to your view 100%, Why take risk and change their business model. As your have mentioned, Ecutek is just a tool, tuners can create their own tuning profile - Ecutek doesn't have to be involved - unless they are able to create extra memory location within the ECU to enable new maps to be stored and switched - unlikely to happen.

The way described on the pasted article seemed to be workable. Over 1 bar of boost the ECU can trim fuel when WI is enabled and switch back to rich mixture below 1 bar - with a little help from the flow sensor plus a EBC. Just imagine you use less fuel at high boost with increase power.

If some one still have the Ecutek screen shot during the annoucement, it clearly show the IDC is lower at high boost with WI. Please post it again.

.... just realised it is still there on the first page ....

Ya don't even need a low/high boost setting. I mean, how many people with water injection ever run their cars without it? If the water runs out or something clogs, the person with the car could just not drive hard til that's rectified. Some visual knock detection couldn't hurt though.....

peace

Running out of water should never be an issue when properly equipped:

http://chargedperformance.com/images/WaterInjection/Tank12LInstalled02.jpg

On my old WRX wagon even going from NJ to CO on a fully loaded road trip in July up and down the hills of the rolling midwest on pretty much continuous boost the 4L washer resevoir would outlast the gas tank.

Ya don't even need a low/high boost setting. I mean, how many people with water injection ever run their cars without it? If the water runs out or something clogs, the person with the car could just not drive hard til that's rectified. Some visual knock detection couldn't hurt though.....

peace

I think the point Ecuteck was making that the switching of "with/without" water can be made automatic so user can continue to drive the car in the absence of water (boost is lowered by aqauamist, fuel is richen by Ecutek) everything will be as what the manufacturer intended from factory.

It is a very reasonable solution for all. In fact neither Aquamist or Ecutek need to be involved, there are enough tuning equipment out there to make this intergration possible now.

Correct, I have laid out the schematics for this before and the tools to do this now are already avaiable - they just have to be gathered - not available in a "package".