I am going to buy a radar detector and don't know which one.

I have always knew of both V1 and Escort. I know that the V1 beat the Escort in some tests. Radartests.com shows that the Escort Passport 8500 beats everything. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks John

Radartests.com is biased.

That said, either unit is quite good, although the general consensus is that the V1 is better than the Escort.

Many folks have hardwired their V1 detectors into the spot where the center sun visor is attached using the power lead for the autodimming mirror.

not even a contest.. V1 hands down all the way. Post this in O/T and see the response you get. Or you can search for it.

-never starts the car w/o his V1
Don

Never tried or seen a V1, but I love my Passport 8500. Save the $100 and get a Passport, you won't be disappointed.
And you can hardwire the 8500 also, you can buy a hardwire adapter. Haven't done it yet but I plan on it.

Originally posted by Zypper
Radartests.com is biased.


...According to V1's website, which is itself a little biased ;)

I have an 8500, and it does its job well. Plus it's directly compatible with the ZR3 laser shifter from Escort, which I also have. I would really like to have the directional feature of the V1 though.

A week after my V1 was stolen, I had a brand new one. I wouldn't drive without it! It's given me excellent advance notice, and the arrows are definitely of value.

the V1 is amazing

nuff said

speed safely

Brian :devil:

Sorry this is so long, but it's kinda complicated.

I have a Passport 8500 hardwired in to my car. The remote unit is in the dash. A little creativity goes a long way when mounting it, but it's worth the effort. I'll dig up some pics.

As for performance, I spent a couple of hours in Escort's factory showroom, and learned a few things:
-Escort produces so many units a year that they don't have the time to economically tune each individual unit. They tune the antenna to the common frequency ranges and send them out. They work fine, but with a good tune, they'll work better.
-As it was explained to me, the police use the three bands, X, K, and Ka. Each of these bands is actually a frequency range, which the radar units transmit within. All radar detectors can pick up frequencies within these bands -even if they are not police radar.
A good antenna tune will allow your unit to descriminate between individual (police) frequencies within these bands. This simultaneously increases sensitivity to police radar, and decreases false alerts.

I was in the showroom to get my 8500 repaired (a loose internal clip caused my detector to unhook itself during hard acceleration). They changed the case in 5 minutes. I had joked that I would like it to work a little better, so the clerk sent the unit to the lab in the back for another 30 minutes.
It came back with a calibration certificate and a new microchip. The techs had taken the time to calibrate my unit to each individual police radar frequency, not just the ranges/bands. The chip was just an upgrade to allow use of the laser "shifter".

Immediately, I noticed a complete lack of false alarms. I also noticed increased range over both moving and stationary radar. I commonly pick up Ka "instant on" speedtraps at over 2 miles range -in any weather. I pick up K band moving radar alerts at 3+ miles -meaning, at 65mph, I don't see the oncoming police car for 1-2 minutes after receiving my first alert.

It's my belief that when Escort sends these units out to be commercially tested, they perform this "hotrod" tune on them to get optimum results. For us consumers, we get the best that they can afford to spend time on -not perfect, but good enough.

I have reccommended that people go out and get the 8500, then send it to Escort (who has fantastic customer service) and say, "it doesn't work as well as my friend's V1...". In two days, you'll have your unit back, 1000x better than it was before.

That being said, my "new" 8500 has outperformed (out ranged) every V1 that I've been near. To the point that during cruises, I have had time to call the lead car (using a V1) and warn him of a speedtrap before his Valentine even sounded it's first alarm.

mbeach: That is very interesting... you may be slowly changing my mind about a V1. If I could see some pics of your install and maybe some more info that would be great!

My lighting's not great right now, but here's a couple of pics.

The remote (for the SmartCord) has been hacked apart, and glued into the console. I have done this twice before, so it's not difficult anymore. It takes no special skill, just don't be afraid to poke a few holes in your console.
The head unit is located just above the RV mirror, I can still use my visors, etc. It is invisible from outside of the car.

The Passport's best features are it customizable displays and settings. I can set it up to display anything that I want, from voltage to radar frequency. It also has the ability to track and display multiple radar sources -meaning, I know how many police cars there are out there, etc. The display shows up like this:

((Ka .:.. ))
This means: Ka band, 1 weak, 1 medium, 1 weak, 1 weak. That's 4 separate frequencies, from 4 different sources.

The directional feature of the V1 is hokey at best, radar bounces off of everything. If the radar unit is behind you, you will get a shot from the rear as well as a bounce off of any building or overpass, etc. from the front.
If you drive around with the 8500 for a day, you'll begin to understand what the signal strengths and audible warnings mean. I can tell you with 95% accuracy where the Police are, and what direction they are traveling at any given time during an alert.

Poor lighting, sorry:

What anyone has failed to say is that the differentiating aspect between these two products is the directional arrows.

The V1 will tell you the direction in which the alarm is coming from, no other unit does this. This I believe, is an advantage over the 8500 unit.

very nice setup. i was gonna order a direct wire kit for my escort 8500 today. i just wasnt sure whether to get just the cord or with the smartcord. i tend to use the smartcord a lot.

every time i see one of these type posts... i reply the same thing.

if you have to ask, then obviously you dont want to buck up for the V1... its hands down the best radar detector out there.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the V1s directional abilities. See my above post.

In order to be truly directional, you would need 4 separate antennae (?). Each mounted as far from the next as possible. This would facilitate a true triangulation ability. Housing a few antenna within the small case of a radar detector would not allow this ability to be accurate, as each antenna would be so close to the next that it couldn't tell the difference between a direct signal and a bounce.

Add in to this the fact that you may be receiving multiple signals from different directions. What does the V1 do then?

I believe that multiple signals within the same band would just confuse the V1's directional ability even further.

I'll do some more research on this subject (I have already done quite a bit), and get back to ya'll.

As a side note, the Passport 8500 perfectly matches the interior of the WRX, and that's what's really important....;)

Both are fine detectors. The V1's arrows are handy, and are fairly accurate from my experience. The 8500's ability to display the exact frequency of a radar source is also very handy.

Here's some good reading for you:
http://www.speedzones.com/

I advise using a V1 before you judge its arrow accuracy. It's quite a bit smarter than a toaster! Knowing whether a signal is in front of you or behind you reduces the amount of looking around you do. It's not the only difference, but I think it's hard to deny that knowing IF there is a signal is only part of what you want to know. Knowing WHERE it is makes the package complete.

I've let a few of the guys at work borrow mine for trips they've taken, and they've either bought one or wished they could convince themselves to crack their wallet that wide.

Just to add an opinion... i've had my V1 for about 3 months, and i love the directional arrows. They definitely work well.

The one thing I HATE about it is that you can't mute specific frequencies. In the interstate corridor I drive daily, it's only Highway Patrol i have to worry about, and they only use Ka band. But, on the drive are at least 6 shopping centers that throw X and K alerts, which are annoying as hell. I know where they are, i know when they are going to happen every day, i just don't want to hear the damn alert. As far as i know. . . the 8500 can mute or turn off certain bands. This fact alone is seriously making me think about selling my V1 and getting an 8500. The only thing that's stopping me is the directional arrows and the remote display quality.

Oh, and another thing that is getting increasingly annoying, but probably isn't V1 specific, is the number of false laser warnings i get. Damn LED brake lights.

skivvie, you can turn off X, K, Ka, or Laser off in your Valentine.

http://www.valentineone.com/lab/MikesLabRpt3.asp

As for laser warnings, wait until you get in front of one of those cars running laser-guided cruise control, like an FX45. You'll get a rear laser warning every few seconds for as long as you are in front of that car.

I've never gotten a false laser warning with my Passport.

I've picked up a few "bounces" of laser however. It depends on the abilities of the laser operator (good aim, distance, etc.) as to whether I can get early enough warning. I have picked them up while they are painting a car up ahead of me.

When I run a front plate, I use a diffuser to minimize the laser's reflection. It seems to work, it gives me a small window in which to slow down.

slopoke's link above is a very informative read -highly recommended. I liked the part about "juiced" vs. retail radar detectors.

Another option is to go with a K40 system. It is a fully installed system so a cop (or theif) does not even know you have a radar detector. You can get a system that has detectors in the front and back (to establish direction like the V1) and optionally add laser detectors/defusers in just the front or front and back. You then install LEDs in the dash and speakers in the air vents that alert you using different flashing and tone combinations to tell you what type of radar band it is, or if it is laser. A volume and city/highway switch is then installed in a extra blank with an bi-color LED that indicates if you are in city or highway mode. Go checkout the articles on www.k40.com for about 5 examples of installations. Just some food for thought. My opinion is that if you want a totaly stealth install, then get the K40, otherwise it sounds like the V1 is the best windshield mounted unit you can get.

I have the V1 and am not disappointed. On a road trip, we took my V1 and my boy's Passport 8500 and the V1 gave a good 2 seconds faster warning than the Passport. So I like my choice. But I think that with either one, you won't be unsatisfied.

Originally posted by mbeach
The directional feature of the V1 is hokey at best, radar bounces off of everything. If the radar unit is behind you, you will get a shot from the rear as well as a bounce off of any building or overpass, etc. from the front.

While it is true that radar will bounce off of everything, that's why the V1 has multiple antennae - it can distinguish between a signal from the front, rear, and side (it works quite well, as anyone who has used a V1 will tell you) - also, the V1 tracks multiple signals, and tells you how many are there - that way you can tell when a known false is the only thing out there, or if a patrol car is taking advantage of a known false.

Both detectors are nice - you just have to decide if the extra $100 or so for the directional detection, multiple signal tracking, and arguably increased range are worth it.

I had a passport way back (92-93) - back when they were in the aluminum case that the Solo now lives in, and the Escort referred to a big, clunky thing (the Escort DSP) - it was a nice detector then, but it was shocking how much better the V1 was, and how useful the directionality was for where I was driving (NE corridor back and forth from VA up to MA) when I bought it (at that point, they didn't even have laser detection, as laser was just coming onto the scene)

V1

I worked with someone that was an antenna engineer. He was engineering antennas for car radios. But what he told me echos what mbeach says - if he had it his way, he would individually tune each antenna and that careful tuning can beat out clever design. Of course, when talking mass-production, you can mass-produce clever design cheaply but you can't mass-produce individual tuning easily.

Thanks for sharing that information, mbeach.

Drd,
Look up the V1's specs on the Valentine link provide earlier. The V1 uses a single antenna.
I know of no way to make a single fixed antenna truly directional.

I have some experience in antenna fabrication and design, I was a Pathfinder for 10+ years and we used/built directional antennas all of the time. I also spent a little time helping to establish retrans sites along the Trans-Alaska Pipeline. All with directional antennas.

The V1 is a top-notch detector, no denying it. But the only area that it consistantly outperforms the 8500 is detection range (and not by much).
I have already told everyone how to improve the Passport's range. Add in the Passport's other features, and it's a winner.

Originally posted by mbeach
Drd,
Look up the V1's specs on the Valentine link provide earlier. The V1 uses a single antenna.

Uh - nice try - What link is that? On the valentine site it pretty clearly states the unit has two antennae - take a look for yourself

http://www.valentine1.com/moreinfo/Comparing.asp

how else would you get directionality?

The Valentine 1 has two radar antennae, one facing forward and one facing rearward. It is for this reason that the unit is wider than most radar detectors. It is also for this reason that it does so much better than all other dash-mounted detectors in rear detection of radar.

And most importantly, the two antennae make having directional arrows possible.

http://www.valentine1.com/specs/
This is the link I followed.
It only specifies one type of antenna.

I stand corrected. Two antennas are better than one. But still not enough to be directional in any way but front and rear.

I applaud you V1 backers for your tenacity, but the fact is that Passport is the better unit for 99% of drivers.
The V1 is a fantastic detector, I've said it before. I am NOT however going to get dragged into the same arguement that has been going on for 10+years.

Where do you think that Mike Valentine learned to build radar detectors? Cincinnati Microwave. Now it's Escort. He had a difference of opinion and theory, then struck out on his own.

That comparison link that you posted is as biased as a Car & Driver article. Plugs wiggling out of the unit??!? My Passport has the same kind of jack that holds your telephone line in. It's selective on who/what it compares the almighty V1 to, but will never fess up and compare it directly to the 8500.

No disrespect intended, but as far as I can tell, 90% of Valentine owners keep coming back to the fact that the V1 costs (slightly) more than the Passport. Is cost a measure of quality? I don't think so.

This Escort/Valentine battle is as tired as Dave Mustaine saying that Metallica sucks because he left the band.

Hey mbeach, don't sweat it. I appreciate that you actually added something new to this debate. I'm surprised that no one else has commented on what would appear to be very significant information. I was in the market for a new detector and I was going to get V1, but now I'm going to try your route.

http://www.radartest.com/article.asp?articleid=9070
^good read^
It's a shame when personalities (not ours, but the Radar Guy's) get involved when comparing two superior products.

I advocate the 8500 because I have had both. The V1 was stolen, and the 8500 was new on the market. That being said, I never got to do a side by side comparison of each. I had one, then the other.

Personally, I liked my old Uniden LRD 9000 (which has long been phased out) for one simple feature -a remote mounted laser detection unit, that could be placed right on the license plate. Neither of these new-fangled detectors come with such a thing.

As for sending the unit back to Escort for calibration, I know that it will work, and have had a couple of friends do it. I'm sure that Escort would not be happy with me for recommending such a thing, but it works.

To be fair to both parties, and if you have the resources, get both of them. Try them out for 30 days (Passport one day, V1 the next) and see which one works for you. Send the other one back for full credit. If you do this on a credit card (before your billing cycle turns over) you won't loose a dime aside from the $3-400 you pay for the unit that you keep.

If I lived in the desert, I'd probably enjoy the long-range detection of the V1. But I live in a city, and I prefer the anti-falsing and easy to decipher display of the 8500.

mbeach i find your input valuable as well. it looks like your escort is mounted behind a tint strip on your windshield. does that interfere with detection at all? i've found i can't use my ez pass from behind my tint but havn't tried it with radar.

Hey Jersey! I just moved out here from Hoboken, in fact I bought my car in Brick Township.

Oh yeah, OT.

Yes, the detector is located at the bottom edge of a tint strip. Not optimal positioning, but it serves my need for stealth.

Common sense dictates that a higher mount is better -but it's not necessarily true. I find that as long as the detector can "see" over the occupants in the car, it's positioned well.
On the other hand, a lower mount favors Laser detection (closer to the common aiming points for the laser operator), but laser is not one of my common daily threats. In fact, I see a laser warning maybe once a week.

My tint is non-metallic, and it should not interfere with laser/radar detection. It's location high on the windshield hurts it's laser detection a bit (I don't have a front plate, I have an FMIC and projector lights -the best((most reflective)) place for an officer to target with laser is either my high-beam reflectors or my windshield) so it's really a non-issue.

I never had problems using the EZpass, but I usually kept it in the 'box and stuck it up to the window when I was passing through.

I took a picture of my windshield from outside the car, but the unit is completely invisible (so are the suction cups), so I didn't bother to post it.

My primary reason for mounting the detector up there as to keep it as concealed as possible, but still be effective for finding radar.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
skivvie, you can turn off X, K, Ka, or Laser off in your Valentine.



:eek: Thanks!

I wonder if us V1 owners couldn't get the same "calibration" done with our units.

As a V1 owner who has spent lots of time with the 8500, I must say that the Passport 8500 is a great detector, and is probably a better bang-for-your-buck than the V1 especially for the casual speeder. However, I don't think I could give up my arrows :)

I really appreciate everyone's input on this subject. I REALLY did not mean to open up a can of worms. Seems like everyone has a real stout opinion on what they think is best.

Thanks to All,

John

Originally posted by mbeach
Two antennas are better than one. But still not enough to be directional in any way but front and rear.

Not true - you watch the signal on both antennae - on one the signal will peak, then begin to drop off, while the other continues to rise - at that point, the radar is to the side (obviously can't tell which side, but that's not as important - the main thing is seeing when you have passed the source - it's nice to not have to be searching for some evil little wretch hiding in the bushes :)

As far as the cost goes - I brought it up in terms of additional features - looking at what both detectors offer:

Passport
1. detects radar and laser

V1
1. detects radar and laser
2. can track multiple signals (and gives you a count of them)
3. gives direction of all sources, indicating also where the strongest one was
4. front and rear radar and laser detection

now, in my opinion,
1. laser detection is almost pointless in most cases - other than to let you know you have been busted.
2. most high-end detectors have plenty of range - I think in most cases, the detectors would be comparable due to terrain being a more dominant factor when determining range
3. the valentine 1 offers features the 8500 doesn't have - some people like them a lot, others are indifferent as to their importance

if you want the directionality, and have the $, the Valentine 1 is the one to get - otherwise, the Passport is a fine choice.

Wasn't Valentine one of the founders of Escort? back when they had that giant analog signal strength meter and the big orange warning light?

Originally posted by DrD
As far as the cost goes - I brought it up in terms of additional features - looking at what both detectors offer:

Passport
1. detects radar and laser

V1
1. detects radar and laser
2. can track multiple signals (and gives you a count of them)
3. gives direction of all sources, indicating also where the strongest one was
4. front and rear radar and laser detection

To address point #2 for the V1, the passport does indeed track multiple signals. It also is able to individually track signal strengths of radar signals, something that the V1 does not do.

The 8500 has both front and rear laser detection. It also detects rear radar indirectly through the front antenna. Radar waves bounce all over the place - so most of the time a forward-facing antenna is all you need to detect radar. That being said, my Passport-owning friends are amazed at how far away my V1 can detect rear radar :)

One handy and rarely-discussed feature of the Passport 8500 is the the "Spec Display". This allows the 8500 to display the exact frequency of any signals it detects. By memorizing the frequencies that are used in your area by police, road signs, and sliding doors, you can get pretty good at determining falses just by looking at the frequency. So while your V1 friends slow down for radar-bearing highway signs, you just keep on cruising at high speed, knowing that the signal is a highway sign and not a real police cruiser.

Originally posted by Slowpoke
It also is able to individually track signal strengths of radar signals, something that the V1 does not do.

I was just looking at the add for the Passport on the escort store site - that's a pretty neat feature.

Not sure how much value reporting the freq's is to me - I'd never remember all of them for my driving route! Plus, I generally respond to the audio alert, then see if it's real or not - I would be hard pressed to get into the habit of hearing the alarm, then looking to see what freq. it is, then trying to remember if it's the same freq. as the last false signal I got...

On a typical drive, you may only see a couple of legitimate threats. Those frequencies are easy to remember. I use my Spec display during my normal commute, and switch to the Expert meter (to display multiple signals) when I venture out of my home territory.

I think that the ferocity with which we defend our personal radar detectors is a testimate to how good these two units really are.

With that, I'd say that ergonomic and display preferences aside, you really can't go wrong by choosing the V1 or the 8500.

...all the others are just junk

It also is able to individually track signal strengths of radar signals, something that the V1 does not do.

To be clear, the V1 does not indicate the signal strengths of independant radar sources in a multi source situation. It does however indicate the band and which antenna is picking up the strongest signal (most threatening source) by flashing the arrow and band indicators. I prefer V1's method, as knowing the strength of the lesser threats (without knowing the direction from which they come I might add) is of little importance to me.

FWIW you can get the V1 for about $50 cheaper if they have any refurb units available when you order. I went that route when I bought a second one for my wife. The unit was indistinguishable from new in both packaging and the detector itself. The V1 also ships with a hardwire kit as well as the cig lighter cable. The concealed display is a nice feature also that I purchased for both of mine.

My mention of the cost was not to indicate that "surely if it costs more, it must be better!" I don't believe anyone would say that as a rational argument. The V1 definitely costs more, and we've made that quite clear. I believe the Passport is a fine piece, but I also believe that if you can spring for it, you'll be very satisfied with the performance of a V1. I know I am!

passport 8500

There's that price issue again...

Price is not even a factor in this arguement. If you're willing to spend $300 on a high-end detector, than you'll be willing to spend $400 on one as well. It's a hundred bucks. After spending $300, what's the difference?

Escort has produced a similar (argueably better) piece of hardware for $100 dollars less. Still feel special? Or just robbed?

Mike Valentine has been charging $400 for the same piece of equipment for 10 years. Thats TEN! Yes, your V1 is TEN years old!
What happens to electronics after ten years? If they don't become obsolete (the V1 is still excellent), they at least get CHEAPER! How much was a DVD player 3 years ago, vs. a better quality one today? 4 years ago you couldn't pick up a 500mHz computer for less than $1500. Now you can get a 1gHz from Gateway for $500.

Why is it that all technology has gotten better and more affordable except for Mike's $400 black box? If you think that paying $400 vs. $300 for a radar detector puts you in some elite club, you're mistaken.
Unless you wanted to join the "Let's make Mike Valentine Rich Club".
You've been had. I'll guarantee that the V1 costs no more than $20 to produce. Considering that it's a decade old design, most, if not all, of it's R&D costs have long been payed off.

This rant was not directed at you in particular. Cost is not what the original post was about, and should have been left out of all of the responses. Yet every V1 owner seems to have the same thing to say, "..if you can afford it...". "...Buck up and buy it..", etc.
I left cost out because no one likes to know that they've been overcharged. Even if it is for such a great piece of kit, it's still too much.

I'll guarantee that the V1 costs no more than $20 to produce. Considering that it's a decade old design, most, if not all, of it's R&D costs have long been payed off.

A lot of your posts have been seemingly well informed, but this one is not. There is almost certainly well over $20 worth of material in the unit alone. The magnesium case and narrow tolerance electrical components alone put it over $20, then factor in the costs associated with manufacturing, marketing, R&D, and real estate for the business. I'll allow that there is probably a pretty good profit margin built into that $400 price tag, maybe even more than for an 8500, but I don't feel ripped off. I highly doubt that R&D stopped ten years ago, there have been many upgrades to the unit over the years. Browsing through the valentine website you'll see that they are constantly testing their product against the latest speed detection devices looking for ways to improve their design. The fact that the case remains more or less the same does not mean that the internals are the same. Additionally, any Valentine unit can be sent in and upgraded to the current specs.

After spending $300, what's the difference?

The difference is a hundred bucks. There are many that have a tough time justifying the $300, for those people, going to $400 is an even harder sell. If I thought that an 8500 was just as good as a V1, I certaintly wouldn't have spent the extra hundred dollars. Money is an issue here. The V1 has to justify its 33% premium over the next best unit. Many V1 owners recognize that and are expressing that in ther experience they feel that the extra hundred bucks was worth spending. Its not a matter of implying superiority due to higher cost, its a matter of expressing that we feel the superiority of the unit justifies the higher cost, but that an 8500 is a great choice if you simply aren't willing or able to pony up for the V1.

Considering the fact that any Valentine unit can be sent in to be upgraded to the current specs (same as the 8500, with a chip-change) implies that I am correct in saying that there have been no SIGNIFICANT changes to the design.

If the Valentine were worth $400, wouldn't Mike be losing $400 everytime he upgraded a customer's unit? Especially if there have been tremendous leaps in the technology between purchase and upgrade time?

I'm willing to bet that if you cracked open a V1 case from '93, it looks exactly the same as one produced yesterday. In a way, it's a testiment to the V1's excellent design. But in another way, it's a cost saving measure.

My wife has extensive retail buying experience, and is a first-hand customer gouger. If you knew the markup on the products you buy everyday, you would be sick. Her input, including any potential R&D costs, materials, assembly and handling puts the unit in the $75.00 range to produce. Maybe even less, depending on the manufacturer's ability to reduce it's costs (free advertising, comparitive testing, bulk purchases, and future R&D).

I'm still missing the point. Why does the V1 cost the exact same as it did in 1993? With no significant upgrades (I will dig up a radar test from 1993 and compare it to the most recent results)? Laser detection aside, I'm willing to say that the V1's radar detection ability was as good as it was ever going to get way back in '93. That ability is what earned it's reputation, but if Mr. Valentine doesn't show the consumers something better soon, he will be passed up.
For the cost, it should blow away the competition, not just barely beat/tie any other unit in the price range.

I'm still missing the point. Why does the V1 cost the exact same as it did in 1993?

If you consider inflation, it doesn't, it's cheaper. The second part of the answer is that $400 is the price that the market is willing to bear.

DVD players got cheaper because more people were making them, as something becomes more plentiful the price drops. With the V1 since there are no other manufacturers that make product that has the same feature set there is no need to reduce the price to compete.

I don't know much of the history but it seems that the 8500 is the first detector to really challenge the V1 on capability, despite the fact that it doesn't have arrows. It wouldn't suprise me to learn that Valentine holds patents that prevent other detector manufacturers from using double antennae and locator arrows in their products, when those patents no longer protect the novelty of the V1, then other manufacturers will be able to compete with similar products. Only then will Valentine need to consider reducing prices to compete.

With no significant upgrades

This is an assertion that you have made, with no proof aside from your insistence that it is true. According to this (http://www.valentine1.com/upgrades/) there have been many upgrades. You may be right about the V1 not remaining competitive in the near future as the other manufacturers that have had ten years to catch up, finally begin to surpass the abilities of the V1. The possibility of that happening does not change the fact that as of yet no one has.

the fact that any Valentine unit can be sent in to be upgraded to the current specs (same as the 8500, with a chip-change) implies that I am correct in saying that there have been no SIGNIFICANT changes to the design.

Well, it almost implies that there have been few, if any significant changes to the hardware. All that it really means is that whatever the upgrades are they still fit in the same case. If no harwdare changes are necessary in order to upgrade an older model, then upgrades consists entirely of software. The extent of changes to the software/logic of the V1 is a question for the manufacturer. However hardware may very well be changed. Neither of us would be able to provide a definitive answer to this particular question without contacting Valentine Research.

For the cost, it should blow away the competition, not just barely beat/tie any other unit in the price range.

In the opinion of those that place high value on the locator features of the V1, it does.

My next stop is Valentine Research. I have already requested that I be sent the last 10 years worth of radar detector tests. I forsee a great improvement in the V1's Ka and Laser abilities, but little change in it's X and K band sensitivity, as well as it's directional features. Not good enough if you ask me. Valentine practically invented these great features, I think that he owes it to his loyal customers to keep up with the market.

I consider a significant upgrade to be a major event. A case change, a redesign of ergonomics, an updated power supply, a better antenna, etc. Something other than software.

For what it's worth, I posted a poll in the MWIC forum. Not a preference poll, but just use. Who uses what. As of 20 seconds ago, the Valentine was up 4 to 1 over the PassPort.

I consider a significant upgrade to be a major event. A case change, a redesign of ergonomics, an updated power supply, a better antenna, etc. Something other than software.

Radar detectors are not much more than radios at their heart. A case change does not necessarily improve performance, so how is that an upgrade? Redesigned ergonomics may be an upgrade if it solves a problem that existed in the previous version. If the power supply is sufficient then why upgrade? Additionally Valentine's site suggest that it has with the statement that every component inside that magnesium case has been updated. The antenna isue is the same, it has been updated at some point since 1992. Some of the updates I'm sure have been software. There is certainly reason to believe that the advances in computing technology since Valentine started up have made their way into that little black case. By sticking with one platform, Valentine ensures that as the technology develops I won't have to spend another $400 to keep my protection. If the technology develops beyond Passports ability to update with a chip, then will you have to spend $300 or more for the newest version of their flagship model?

Changing cases and "fixing" non-existent ergonomics issues are just a good way to make those that have already purchased a product, get the newest product when obsolescence sets in. I personally appreciate the fact that Mike has seen fit to avoid allowing my investment to become obsolete.

It seems that we have stumbled on a philosophical conflict between you and Valentine. If having a pretty new case is more "significant" (important) than being able to keep the same expensive piece of excellent equipment indefinitely, then you certainly have the right radar detector.

I have no philisophical conflict with anyone, especially Mike Valentine. He is undoubtably a genius in the field. My only issue is his reluctance to graciously lose in an unbiased test.

There is no denying that both radartest and Car & Driver have their biases. But when you stack up 50 units, and run them through the same battery of tests, the results are pretty much gospel.

The fact is, the same complaints keep surfacing about the V1 year after year. Knobs, single-colored LEDs, unreliable "bogey counter", lack of auto-mute feature, to name a few. If Valentine is doing his research and making constant upgrades, why haven't a couple of these features been addressed?
Why are yahoos selling multi-colored LED "upgrades" on eBay?
If you look at product reviews on the V1, "ease of operation" never scores well. Neither does the display properties.

To rest upon the V1's excellent detection properties alone pretty much ensures that you'll be left in the dust eventually.

P.S., I'm having fun with this discussion, thanks to everyone for their civil and informative responses.
I belive the PassPort is getting crushed in my poll.

Originally posted by mbeach
Considering the fact that any Valentine unit can be sent in to be upgraded to the current specs (same as the 8500, with a chip-change) implies that I am correct in saying that there have been no SIGNIFICANT changes to the design.
Actually I think you are mistaken. When one ponies up the $140 (I don't know the exact number) to upgrade their V1, Valentine does not take the old unit and simply replace a chip. They give you a completely new unit. The latest unit is a bit smaller than their older units.

But let's say that all they have to do is replace a single chip. I don't find this to be too unusual or unsettling. Individual components do not change too much over the years (an antenna is an antenna, a resistor is a resistor, an oscillator is an oscillator). There are not too many different ways to interconnect these components either, so you can maintain the same PCB design, save for a few changes to account for component changes as old components go obsolete. The brains of the V1 is probably just a single chip (an ASIC perhaps), and that would be the only chip you would need to change from revision to revision. You could make significant changes to the operation of the unit while only changing this one component.

You are correct when you say that the radar-detecting abilities of the V1 are largely unchanged from the early 90's (save for Ka band, which has been improved up to Passport 8500 standards). I think that is a testament to how good this detector is, if after 10 years, it's still one of the top 2 detectors on the market.

You have to pay for an upgrade? I thought that it was free for the V1 Owners Club.

Getting sent a new/refurbished unit is a nice bonus though.

Barring physical damage to the unit, an updated microprocessor is all I would expect from an upgrade.
With the exception of the Hertz-type antenna, the "brains" of the unit is far more important than the antenna itself. I wouldn't expect that the antenna would need to be swapped out for the sake of updating.

The V1 is currently ranked third on the market -by radartest of course.

The fact is, the same complaints keep surfacing about the V1 year after year. Knobs, single-colored LEDs, unreliable "bogey counter", lack of auto-mute feature, to name a few.

This is some of that history stuff that I indicated I was not familiar with. FWIW, auto-mute has been addressed in software. It is available through a programming mode. (http://www.valentine1.com/lab/MikesLabRpt3.asp) As for the knobs, I like them. I'm not familiar with unreliable bogey counter issue, do you have any more information about that? I wouldn't mind seeing diferent color LEDs for the different radar bands, and Mike should change that. I'm getting good at recognizing the diferent tones, so its not too much of an issue for me. It would be interesting to see a history of the V1, detailing the changes made along the way in both hardware and features. I'd hesitate to claim that Mike Valentine is resting on anything without knowing more about his operation.

As to the issue of losing in an unbiased test. Is it biased to test scenarios that can and do occur on the roads because only one product is designed with that scenario in mind? I guess I'm unclear about how exactly the Car & Driver tests have been biased. I also have read little about the tests run by other publications so I can't speak to the bias or lack thereof of their tests. As for my own bias, the most current material I've read about judging the objectiveness of a radar test caomes from Valentine's site (http://www.valentine1.com/lab/MikesLabRpt5.asp). I do however believe that the criteria specified on that page would indeed provide unbiased results that truly represent the compartive abilities of detectors in situations that I will experience while driving.

www.radartest.com

Not a Mike friendly site, but informative nontheless.

It's interesting to read the history between Mr. Valentine and Mr. Peterson, but since Mr. Peterson's name is not written on the box of any radar detector, I'm inclined to say that he has nothing to lose by reporting the facts.

The site also outlines the testing procedures that are being used, and gives very good details as to the capabilities and limitations of Police radar/laser.
There is also a good writeup on Scanners -might become my next toy.

As for the "bogey counter", I have read a few complaints (just a few) about it's "oversensitivity". I personally would get bombarded with "bogeys" everyday on the way to work. Sometimes 8-9 in a few miles on the expressway. While this is not unheard of, I did live in Fairbanks, Alaska at the time -hardly a haven for speedtraps and moving radar.
There's something about having a number flashing in my face that makes me nervous, plus a number is seen to be an accurate representation of the truth. "...am I really being followed by 6 'bogeys'...?"
I'd rather know for a fact that 5 of those signals are X-band, and only 1 of them is Ka.

I'd rather know for a fact that 5 of those signals are X-band, and only 1 of them is Ka.

I can definitely see some value in that.

I also see the ability to connect to Escort's Laser shifter as something that could become more important if you live in a laser rich area (fortunately I don't). The more I learn about the 8500 the more I see it as a peer to the V1. I can even begin to see why some might prefer it. I haven't changed my mind about the Valentine though, It's still the best choice for me.

The personal stuff between Valentine and Perterson is certainly strange. I do think that it would improve Peterson's credibility to accurately list the V1's features. He fails to acknowledge the auto dimming, auto mute, programmable features, available external speaker jack, and alternate "city" (V1 doesn't call them city modes, they're called Logic and Advanced Logic) modes.

wanna hear something weird? My V1's laser is set off by the brake lights of the chevy Trailblazers.

Don

I agree, I don't think that Mr. Peterson gives a fair shake to the V1. It's a personal thing I'm sure, but in the interest of objectivity, he should at least correctly list the V1's features.

But the test results are what counts to most of us.

That's the second mention of LED taillights and laser detection. I don't remember having any such thing happen to me with the V1. It seems that if the LEDs were of the correct wavelength, they should trip the detector.
It kinda makes me wonder why my PassPort has never picked up the taillights.

Originally posted by nunyo
[BHe fails to acknowledge the auto dimming, auto mute, programmable features, available external speaker jack, and alternate "city" (V1 doesn't call them city modes, they're called Logic and Advanced Logic) modes. [/B]

also left out that the direct wire kit is included - they do mention the 3-step city/highway mode, though, as well as the auto-dimming. The programming stuff is completely left out, too (though it's mentioned on other detectors) - both the Escort and V1 (along with a couple of the Bel's) get top scores for radar and laser sensitivity, though.

Originally posted by DrD
they do mention the 3-step city/highway mode, though, as well as the auto-dimming.

Its mentioned in the review, but I was speaking specifically of the matrix sheet posted on radartest.com here (http://www.radartest.com/preview/detectorselector.pdf).

Just an aside. In addition to Trailblazer LED third brake lights, I can trigger laser on the V1 with the remote for my Clarion head unit. I never really use the remote so it doesn't bother me, but it is interesting. Maybe if I hardwire the remote and mount it in my grill it would interfere with Lidar guns. :lol: okay, mebbe not.

I'm going to have to take every remote control that I own outside to see if I can reproduce this phenomenon.

Originally posted by DrD
Wasn't Valentine one of the founders of Escort? back when they had that giant analog signal strength meter and the big orange warning light?

My Dad still has that detector! Every once and a while I see it in the garage or basement. He even used every once and a while up until seven or eight years ago. Memories.

Heck. I know someone with the original Escort! Anyone remember that? It had an analog needle gauge and a large yellow bulb for a warning. It was almost as large as a car stereo. He still uses it and swears that on X and K band that it is better than most units out there.

I still remember the original Passport. In terms of industrial design, I don't think it has ever been surpassed. Alas, "progress" sometimes requires change for change's sake.

OK, enough of memory lane. I'm starting to feel really dated.

i've had the v1 for a LONG time... i think i picked it up in '94?

it still impresses me, and i've never wanted a different detector.

fwiw,
ken

Originally posted by Orson
Heck. I know someone with the original Escort! Anyone remember that? It had an analog needle gauge and a large yellow bulb for a warning. It was almost as large as a car stereo.

I's gots one sitting in my house, still works. Love that alalog display.

Currently use V1 - Has not missed a cop yet (yet).

Little story - You know those highway signs that give you traffic conditions/warnings and set off all radadr detectors like 2 miles ahaead? Well on the way down from Boston last weekend, my V1 goes off, I look and see that type of sign like a 1/2 - 1 mile ahaed, no worries right? The road ahead undulates up and down, and just as I come over the little crest about 50 yards from the sign lo-and-behold , whom do I see sitting in the bush next to it...thats right SMOKEY himself. Sneaky B*****d. Good thing I was being a good boy. :)

Lesson : just because there is a radar sign ahead does not mean thats all thats there.

speed safely

sav

That's the kind of situation that makes me love my Passport.
I get a (sign's) signal on K-band. If it's not 24.150-ish I don't even slow down.

I own one of each. I like the V-1 personally much more. If anyone wants a Passport I have one for sale.:disco:

This argument is really g@y. I've used both units over countless miles (I have 97k on my RS) and I'll have to say the V1 has saved my tail so many times it's not even funny. The other item that is really good to have if you travel on interstate highways or any highway that has alot of truck traffic is a CB. Radar detectors let you know right when you are on the device the CB will let you know 30 miles in advance. I would rather be able to travel at 95mph for 20 miles without worrying about the law and then when I get to the area where he is set up and then slowing down and watching the V1 go totally nuts as some punk in a Hondah goes buzzing past me and the trooper and gets pulled over.

V1+CB=no tickets in over 1.5 years

Z

I mentioned a police scanner earlier, I think that' a nice addition to the package as well.

Going back in time...
Escort, Uniden LRD +CB, V1 +CB, Escort 8500 =no tickets in 11 years.

I have both the V1 and the 8500.

I upgraded my V1 a year ago...I sent in my old one and got a BRAND NEW one in return.

Both sometime detect the LED brakelights on the trailblazer,

Comparing a stock V1 vs. a "tuned" 8500 is like comparing a stock WRX vs. a ECUTek'd WRX...

I slow down any time either radar detector goes off...even if I know from experience that it's a false alarm. Not worth the chance.

The 8500 is in my truck, and my V1 is in my WRX because I like it better. I feel it alerts me earlier, gives me the information I want, gives me more peace of mind.

I also want to know if the V1 can be tuned. It seems if it can be then it would be the better choice with little room for argument, but the Idea of tuning the 8500 is interesting. My only question about it is what if different cops in different areas use different frequencies? Then you'd be in bad shape.

I posted the 5 authorized frequencies earlier (somewhere...), but since I have really been paying attention, I have noticed some variances from the original 5. They are very minor btw, and well within the abilites of the radar detector.

For example:
Today, I got a warning at 33.800gHz. This should be BEE III (POP) Radar, Ka band. Shortly afterwards, I got a warning at 33.725gHz. Turned the corner, and there he was.

I don't look for exact frequencies, I look for anything within 0.1gHz. That usually gives me a pretty good warning.

Another common false I get is 34.465gHz. This is caused by a cheap radar detector in the car next to me. 34.555gHz is also a false, usually near a bank's doors. But anything near 34.700gHz is a Stalker radar gun.

This is pretty geeky, but it's kinda nice to know exactly what kind of gun is pointed at you (if there's one at all). I am working on memorizing the exact frequencies in my area, and which radar units transmit what.

I've got a hardwired 8500 and I'm really impressed with it. It's much more stealth than a V1 (i think its a lot thinner). I like how it tracks individual signal strengths of multiple signals. An insignificant, if any performance advantage is not worth another $100 for me.

Originally posted by whtlegacy
I've got a hardwired 8500 and I'm really impressed with it. It's much more stealth than a V1 (i think its a lot thinner).

Actually, the 8500 is thicker than the V1:

8500 is 1.25" x 2.85" x 5.32"

V1 is 1.0" x 3.6" x 4.5"

the thickness of the 8500 is deceptive as it tapers from one end to the other

As an aside - earlier versions of the V1 (from when they started having laser coverage through version 1.7) were 1.3" tall, but the current version is not. (current version is also a couple of ounces lighter than previous versions)

The V1 also can detect the Ku radar band (not really useful in the states though, I suppose:) )

Originally posted by 2000vfr800
Comparing a stock V1 vs. a "tuned" 8500 is like comparing a stock WRX vs. a ECUTek'd WRX...




Absolutely true. But the point here is that mbeach has shown us a way to get a "tuned" 8500 for less cost than an untuned V1. If you could get an ECUTek'd WRX for less cost than a stock WRX, I suspect you would get the ECUTek'd one. If someone else can show a way to get their V1 "tuned", then it becomes a more interesting discussion.

BTW, the other day I was browsing a site (I forget which and I can't find it anymore, but it was a site selling radar detection gear that is supposedly operated by a former cop). According to the site, Beltronics and Escort are owned by the same company. This is not to imply that the products are the same, but if you go to each company's website (www.beltronics.com and www.escortinc.com), you do notice that the website are extremely similar. In particular, go to the FAQ and policies pages - they are identical down to the word in certain sections. Both companies also now sell performance computers.

The Bel 985 and Escort 8500 also share some common features, such as the ability to display the radar frequency. Both units have an 8-digit display. Hmmm.

One more thing I found. According to www.beltronics.com, the Bel 975LR (a remote mounted unit) boasts that every unit is individually hand tuned.

Passport is the best. Plus you can have the ZR3 laser shifter or just get a SRX. I flushed mine it the dash. V1 does not shift laser.
And it's so old school. Passport can show multiiple radars and the strengths.

Originally posted by it8ezbngrn
Passport is the best. Plus you can have the ZR3 laser shifter or just get a SRX. I flushed mine it the dash. V1 does not shift laser.
And it's so old school. Passport can show multiiple radars and the strengths.

The ZR3 doesn't require a seperate detector - it's optional (plus, I don't think too many people are running out and dropping an additional $500 for that thing unless laser is about the only thing they have - in all honesty, all this would do is piss off the cop trying to read your car - they will figure out that something is up, and probably pull you over out of spite...) so you could use one of those even if you had a V1 or a Bel or a whistler or whatever...

Why, praytell, is the V1 old-school? Both detectors have had the same basic shape for many, many years, Both have comparable detection range, etc. - so what makes one "old school" and the other not?

I think that I solved the V1's Laser falsing with the Trailblazer issue.

It's the wavelength of the Trailblazer's brakelights. Police Lidar is supposed to be 904nm (wavelength), I doubt the Trailblazer is the same, but it could be within +or- 50nm, maybe more, since it's still visible light (not IR).

I was RadioShackin' today, looking for an infrared receiver. Trying to rig up a couple of remote laser sensors inside of my headlight housings.
The receiver worked at 950nm, +or- 50nm. SO it would pick up police laser as well.

If the V1 uses a similar type IR receiver, (with a broad "visible" spectrum) it would not only pick up police laser, but anything else that is close in the light spectrum.

verdict= cheap hardware. An IR receiver costs less than $4.

If you look closely at a Trailblazer you'll see that its not actually LED's in the third brake light. I'm not sure exactly what it is. Got a laser alert from a neon sign yesterday. Parked right in front of the dry cleaners and as I pulled into the spot the neon "open" sign set off my wifes V1.

Originally posted by nunyo
If you look closely at a Trailblazer you'll see that its not actually LED's in the third brake light. I'm not sure exactly what it is.

If it is not some sort of LED setup, then I would assume it to be a cold cathode tube. That would be the first time I have heard of an auto maker using a CCT for brake lights... I just use them for computer cases. :D

either the 8500 or the V1 will work very well, but I like the V1's directionality feature.

Originally posted by mbeach
I agree, I don't think that Mr. Peterson gives a fair shake to the V1. It's a personal thing I'm sure, but in the interest of objectivity, he should at least correctly list the V1's features.

Emailed and got a response back from them as to why they don't list the features properly - since the programming procedure (and all of the adjustments you can make, including turning bands on and off, adjusting Ka sensitivity, changing automute behavior, etc.) is documented on the website, rather than the product manual, they chose not to list them in the table.

sort of sad, really...

I emailed them a few days ago requesting long-term test results for the V1. I was trying to get a feel for how the V1 has performed over the last 10 years worth of tests.

First response:
"We have test results from 1993 but due to variances in test conditions, locations, etc. it's difficult to compare results from one test to another. However, if you can supply the make/model of the unit in question, we'll offer an opinion on its performance."

Next response (after specifically mentioning the V1):
"Check our Website next week and we'll have a full review of the V1. But to answer part of your question, there've been no changes to the V1's ergonomics, controls or functions in over a decade."

Now to see the results (next week)...

I'm not so sure of the problems that have been discussed with the V1, other than the bogey counter, with it seems may be kind of sensitive.

The V1 seems designed to give you the most information with the least amount of work. When it goes off, you know the nearest signal type and strength. The type of auditory warning will indicate the type, and the frequency of the tone roughly indicates its strength. This is backed up by a simple digital display showing bands and counts, with the nearest band (and its direction, but I'm not even going to get into arrows here) flashing.

To display the type and strength of multiple signals at once would be too distracting as it would require you to divert too much attention from the road. This at a time when you should be looking for the radar itself and watching out for other drivers who will react in stupid ways when they see the radar. The same is true if the detector cycles through signals on a single display; you are either watching the results scroll across the screen or are taking your hand off the wheel tapping through a list of contacts when your attention should be on the road.

Colored lights are a distraction to the eye and will cause glare. Red is used because it has the longest wavelength and is least likely to cause glare. At night this is what you want. I think the trend of fancy stereos displaying colors and motion and the like is pretty dangerous already, without having something else in your perferal vision dancing aroung distracting your eyes.

The V1 isn't just designed to do a bunch of things, it's also designed to give you the most information in the simplist way possible; no reading frequencies, waiting for information on multiple sources, or glaring/distracting colors. These will all take yor attention from the road when it most needs to be there. Someone at Valentine did a very good job with the ergonomics.

As for sensitivity and getting false signals, police radar isn't all that precise to begin with and I could understand erring on the side of caution when it comes to frequency.

Originally posted by mbeach

I have a Passport 8500 hardwired in to my car. The remote unit is in the dash. A little creativity goes a long way when mounting it, but it's worth the effort. I'll dig up some pics.


Those pics are slick, mbeach, is that the smart cord that you wired into your dash?

Yes, I pulled the remote unit for the smartCord apart (1 screw) and glued the circuit board into the back of the console- (after drilling a few holes.

The PassPort label peels off and sticks right back on, you can use it as a template to drill your holes.

The first two times that I did this, I used blanks in the dashpanels. This was the first time that I risked damaging a part that cost more than $2.

On the subject of ergonomics and reading complicated displays, my philosophy on radar detector use has been to rely solely on the auditory signals. I always have my detector in dark mode.

I make sure that I recognize the different tones that distinguish between the different types of radar. As most people would do, I immediately slow down if I get a warning that could be a police frequency. I'll figure out whether it was a false warning later - better safe than sorry. So to me, fancy visual information is useless to me. Just give me good detection and good auditory warning.

www.radartest.com has new test results (dated December 5) and includes a seperate test on POP mode. Strangely enough, the V1 was not included in the POP testing - perhaps a nod to its age since the Bel 985 was also not included (even though the Bel 985 was included in the 2004 Top Detector round-up).

Damn. I just got a 985 and its already been replaced with a newer model!

Valentine was not included in the latest Radartest evaluation, but it is alluded to in this paragraph

Although one detector manufacturer has dismissed the reliability of POP mode as a technological impossibility, we'd have to say that our testing confirms the manufacturer's claims. Not that we like POP much--and MPH's fellow radar manufacturers have privately criticized it as well.

Perhaps radartest.com felt that this disqualifies Valentine as a contender in this test.

www.speedzones.com tests POP mode in their latest test on over 10 detectors, including the Valentine 1. I have found their tests to be more comprehensive and unbiased when compared to a lot of the other reviews I have read (radartest, C&D, etc). Speedzones found that the V1 detected K POP but not Ka Pop, while the 8500 was able to detect both.

I am concerned that Valentine's position on POP mode (http://www.valentine1.com/pop/) means that he is not committing any R&D to combatting it.

Round and round it goes where it stops nobody knows. I swear this is better than the Presidential election vote count in Florida.

I am still worried to mention the one I purchased!

I say bring your radar detector and weapon of choice and brawl. Last one standing or breathing wins!

I could write a ten volume discertation on this. I just might.:huh: :lol:

Yeah, thanks for getting this started...;)

More POP mode information can be found on MPH Industries' web site, and on www.copradar.com (look for the traffic radar handbook link).

It's a bogus invention, and it's results are unreliable due to frequency chirp.

But I still like the fact that I know it's out there.

The question is, how many tickets have been issued using POP radar alone? What if the driver's fought them in court?

There's a thread in the MWIC about a bogus ticket, good stuff on how to fight it is popping up...

Escort Passport 8500 30.00 rebate and Free 2nd Day Air shipping at Cartoys.com. 269.99 Just in case anybody is swayed by the Escort guys. John

If you read the radartest.com article on POP, they note that POP is actually not legal for issuing a ticket. However, as they note, a cop can still use it and deny that he used POP as the sole speed measuring method. Then it's your word against his word in court.

I haven't felt the need to upgrade from my $50 5-year old detector until I read about POP. I can accept getting a ticket for 75mph in a 55mph zone if I actually was driving that fast, but if the ticket cites me for doing 85mph, I will be super pissed. I'm arming myself with a POP-capable detector and asking questions later.

What about the Beltronics Pro RX65? It really appears to me that the Valentine One is not concerned with POP at all. It seems to me that Mike is going to have to update the technology in the V1 or it is going to be left behind. John

Yeah, I found out about the Bel RX65 after I put in an order for the 985. (Doh!)

If you believe radartest.com (and Mike Valentine would argue you shouldn't) then the RX65 and Escort 8500 look like good bets on POP as well as overall X, K, and Ka. In Valentine's defense, he's probably working on a software update, but it's all talk until he shows the goods.

BTW, if you go to www.beltronics.com and www.escortinc.com, you will note that the sales and service addresses are the same!

So it would appear that Bel and Escort are more or less the same company now operating two brand names. (Rather like GM with Chevrolet and Pontiac brands.)

Originally posted by Orson
BTW, if you go to www.beltronics.com and www.escortinc.com, you will note that the sales and service addresses are the same!

So it would appear that Bel and Escort are more or less the same company now operating two brand names. (Rather like GM with Chevrolet and Pontiac brands.)

That's because Escort owns BEL. It was mentioned in one of the articles posted above. ;)

Calvin

Yeah, I know. I even posted about it above. I just didn't notice until now that they even have the same sales address! It makes you wonder about what else is identical.

I found a place that is selling the BEL RX65 for 285.00 shipped. Everywhere else is 329.00. The question is do I want to send my Valentine back? John

Originally posted by 2.2gotboost
Escort Passport 8500 30.00 rebate and Free 2nd Day Air shipping at Cartoys.com. 269.99 Just in case anybody is swayed by the Escort guys. John

I went to place my order for this unit and something got messed up during the order process. I was prompted to fill out a survey for an additional 10% off coupon so I did so. When I went back to complete the order, my cart had expired. I re-entered my order and got $30 off and free standard ground shipping. This brought the price of the unit down to $269. Since the rebate form does not mention not permitting combination of offers, my final cost should be $239. Not a bad price for those looking to get a Passport 8500. :D

Calvin

Update: Just got an email from car-toys that they're out of stock at their outlet center and searching another one. They're bumping me up to free UPS next-day air so all-in-all, a great purchase. IIRC, next-day air would have cost me $50. :banana:

The Bel RX55 is supposed to be the same as RX65 except with fewer bells-and-whistles features. A quick search on Google shows the RX55 can be found for about $230.

Well I just wish that I could a totally unbiased opinion on the performance of these things. You never know who takes what under the table or not.

Another thing I read on Radartest.com was that the life expectancy of a radar detector was 18 months? Is this accurate?

I just really don't want to think that I made a wrong buying decision. I might just order the Bel and play with it. If I tell them it is a gift than I don't have to return it until the end of January. They will even pay the return shipping. John

I am keeping what I've got. It is the standard by which all others are judged. Rock On. John

good choice;)

Originally posted by 2.2gotboost
Well I just wish that I could a totally unbiased opinion on the performance of these things. You never know who takes what under the table or not.
There is no such thing as a totally unbiased opinion. Opinions are by nature biased.

I've posted this link here before, but it deserves mentioning again. http://www.speedzones.com has some of the most in depth, detailed testing out there, and they don't really "rank" detectors with any sort of absolute score - they just throw out test results and let the reader decide what is best for him or her. Unfortunately, you can only read the latest test/review at any given time - right now it's the 2003 Annual Detector Test.

Here are their "Best In Category" awards:
There is no one detector best at everything. The following are the top performers in each category alphabetically listed. See performance tables for details. Field testing conducted under ideal atmospheric, testing, and RF propagation conditions. Your results may vary.

Most Invisible To Radar Detector/Detectors-VG-2, Spectre II, MD-3
Bel 985, Passport 8500, Valentine One

Best At Detecting POP Modes-Bee III Ka, Z-25 K
Bel 985, Cobra 9870, Passport 8500, Whistler 1793, Whistler 1783

Best Straight Line Detection X, K, Ka
Bel 985, Passport 8500, PNI Zodiac, Valentine One, Whistler 1783, Whistler 1793

Best Maximum Range Over The Hill
Bel 985, Passport 8500, PNI Zodiac, Valentine One

Best Laser Detection
Bel 985, Cobra 9870, Passport 8500, Passport SR7, PNI Zodiac, Valentine One, Whistler 1793

Best Radar From The Rear
Bel 985, Passport 8500, Valentine One, Whistler 1783

Best Safety Feature
Cobra's Strobe Alert

Originally posted by Slowpoke
There is no such thing as a totally unbiased opinion. Opinions are by nature biased.


Yup.

What no one seems to notice, however, is that the only person putting forth accusation of unprofessionalism is Mike Valentine. (Unfortunately, radartest.com has had to respond.) Yet few, if anyone, around here seems to be accusing Mike Valentine of being unprofessional or biased, when it would seem that Mike Valentine started the flame war and has personal and commercial interest in discrediting radartest.com.

Meanwhile, www.radartest.com and www.speedzones.com report results that more or less agree with each other. Conspiracy theory or just Mike Valentine's ego out of control? You decide.

Comparison of Valentine, Bel 985, Bel RX65, and Escort 8500.

For some reason, www.radartest.com posted this article and then took it down. Here's a link to the Google cache. Get it while you can:
http://216.239.37.104/search?q=cache:ujkh51VKNnYJ:www.radartest.com/article.asp%3Farticleid%3D9090+bel+rx65+escort+850 0+radartest.com&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8

Nice find Orson. The RX65 or the 8500 looks to be the better of the bunch...

Something about Radartests.com rubs me the wrong way. In six months another detector will be on top. Funny thing about them removing that test. It was not up for a full two weeks. Six of one and half dozen of the other.

It is kinda like people that buy H2's and think they have a Hummer. When in reality it is just a repackaged Chevrolet.

John

Originally posted by mbeach
Sorry this is so long, but it's kinda complicated.

I have a Passport 8500 hardwired in to my car. The remote unit is in the dash. A little creativity goes a long way when mounting it, but it's worth the effort. I'll dig up some pics.

As for performance, I spent a couple of hours in Escort's factory showroom, and learned a few things:
-Escort produces so many units a year that they don't have the time to economically tune each individual unit. They tune the antenna to the common frequency ranges and send them out. They work fine, but with a good tune, they'll work better.
-As it was explained to me, the police use the three bands, X, K, and Ka. Each of these bands is actually a frequency range, which the radar units transmit within. All radar detectors can pick up frequencies within these bands -even if they are not police radar.
A good antenna tune will allow your unit to descriminate between individual (police) frequencies within these bands. This simultaneously increases sensitivity to police radar, and decreases false alerts.

I was in the showroom to get my 8500 repaired (a loose internal clip caused my detector to unhook itself during hard acceleration). They changed the case in 5 minutes. I had joked that I would like it to work a little better, so the clerk sent the unit to the lab in the back for another 30 minutes.
It came back with a calibration certificate and a new microchip. The techs had taken the time to calibrate my unit to each individual police radar frequency, not just the ranges/bands. The chip was just an upgrade to allow use of the laser "shifter".

Immediately, I noticed a complete lack of false alarms. I also noticed increased range over both moving and stationary radar. I commonly pick up Ka "instant on" speedtraps at over 2 miles range -in any weather. I pick up K band moving radar alerts at 3+ miles -meaning, at 65mph, I don't see the oncoming police car for 1-2 minutes after receiving my first alert.

It's my belief that when Escort sends these units out to be commercially tested, they perform this "hotrod" tune on them to get optimum results. For us consumers, we get the best that they can afford to spend time on -not perfect, but good enough.

I have reccommended that people go out and get the 8500, then send it to Escort (who has fantastic customer service) and say, "it doesn't work as well as my friend's V1...". In two days, you'll have your unit back, 1000x better than it was before.

That being said, my "new" 8500 has outperformed (out ranged) every V1 that I've been near. To the point that during cruises, I have had time to call the lead car (using a V1) and warn him of a speedtrap before his Valentine even sounded it's first alarm.


I called escort customer service and the commented that a custom tune would actually probably make it worse. That would be because the units are tuned to pick up within a certain range but be more sensitive to alert for an actual speed trap or etc. They don't custom tune for specific frequencies in regional areas other than the preset tune. And when they leave the factroy they are already "optimized" so to speak. Also that even if that was possible to somehow do that, you would be taking away from the passport.You are not helping it because you are taking away from the range of frequencies that it picks up, and it is made to pretty much not go off and give minimal false warnings. Further, they said they don't offer a reginal custom tune anyhow. If one was to send your 8500 to customer service, they would reprogram the exact same tune to it that it left with. The only way you would benifit was if you actually had an old version of the 8500(because it has been out for a very long time) or that it was dropped around a bit etc which would affect the sensitivity. I spoke with 3 people including the customer service supervisor on this matter, they seemed very nice and informative. One also commented that if indeed you saw improvment in your 8500 that it again, most likely was an older software version of the 8500 or was mishandled in some way to affect the preset factory "optimized" sensitivity. And that ifthe problem you are talking about with the unit unhooking itself with hard accerleration or stopping it would explain the misuse or unintended abuse to the unit

Customer service# 1-800-543-1608 Glen @ EXT 8586

I have probably met most of the people you spoke to. I only live an hour from Escort.
My unit was an "older one", purchased 1/2002. It did require a software update, as mentioned.

I have a lot of experience with radio frequencies and interference, specifically tuning Hertz and Marconi type antennas for specific frequency reception. Any radio nut will tell you that a tuned antenna will be more selective than an "off the shelf" unit. By selectivity, I am referring to the antenna's ability to detect a frequency within +/- .200gHz instead of +/-.750gHz. It does not seem like a lot, but it makes a difference in how often you get an alarm for a frequency that is most definately not a threat.

Example:
33.800gHz =Police Radar -Threat!
33.200gHz =Cheap Radar Detector nearby -Waste of brakes!

If by "regional custom tune" you mean specific areas (states?) of the US, then no, Escort won't tune for that. There are only 5 frequencies used for police radar in the whole country. It's not hard to tune for them and ignore the rest.

BTW, thanks for calling Escort and "letting the cat out of the bag".
I have given PM advice to a few people on how to get their units tuned. I hope that this doesn't screw them.

Purpose of my post was not to try to call you a liar or anything of that nature. Actually I was hoping that you would respond in hopes that there is actually a way to tune them to make them better. Being that I just bought my brother one for Xmas. But these are the responses that I got from the source, that you can't tuen them to make them better. Not sure how to take it, but that is what they told me. Is there a way to tune them in? Because they are telling me that there isn't unless they are old or worn so to speak.

Check radartest's guidelines for purchasing test units.
I specify RadarTest, but every radar detector tester uses the same procedures.

paraphrased:
"...only test units purchased from a retail store, this prevents manufacturers from submitting units that have signifigantly better performance than the units that can be purchased by the average consumer..."

The point is, that anything with an antenna on it can be made to perform better with a good tune. Just like we tune our cars ECU for better performance.

It has happend where a manufacturer supplied a "ringer" radar detector to a testing body. It's performance was amazing, so unbelievable, that the testers dismantled it, and sure enough, it had been modified. I don't know who did it, but the principle is the same -there is a way to make them better. It may not be cost effective for the manufacturer to produce these individually tuned units in quantity, so they provide the best that they can within their budget.

The average high-end detector is plenty good for 95% of drivers. I was trying to help those other 5% that want more performance from an already good unit.

If one was to send a unit out to escort, what would they ask for? A few of the people I spoke with told me that the service techs would just reprogram it to the presets. Maybe they are out of the loop, giving me the basic lines and playing it by ear from their experiences. The guy basicly told me that it would be a waste of money to send my unit back because they wouldn't do anything special to it.

If there are only 5 frequencies that the police use nationwide how come the range is still big enough to have false alarms and why not just tune the antennae to those 5 exact? I wish I understood radar more.

But hey, what would one ask for? Would I ask them to preset it to the 5 frequencies? Should I tell them that I wanted to do a test and ask them to make sure it was "tuned" :D so I can give an appropriate review.... OR should I just ask them to tune the socks out of it.

Also what do u mean by" letting the cat outa the bag"? Why would escort hide the fact that they can custom tune these, especially if it would beat a valentine? I don't understand. Why wouldn't they just do it in the first place. The quick fix or parts etc can't possibly add up to the $100 diference, especially if it would Beat a valentine at least in detection.(features is another thing)

The "Cat":
My detector got "individual attention" because I said that it wasn't sensitive enough and that it falsed too much. Truth be told, it worked just fine. After the tech session, it worked much better. It was a slow day in the showroom, and I got to chat for a while with the guys behind the desk. Maybe they did me a favor, maybe the tech thought that I was cute, I dunno. All I know is that my detector disappeared for 30 minutes, and when it came back it was better than new. It was only a month or so old when I did this.

After doing some research, and comparing it to my previous radio experience, I realized the obvious -my antenna was hand tuned (the repair sheet was marked "recalibrated"). Very much like the old Uniden CB radio that I had tuned -it's performance was greatly enhanced with some personal attention.

The purpose of this thread was to compare the V1 to the Escort. Based solely on radar detector reviews of the last two years, I'd say that the Escort has already done so -in it's retail store trim. I avoided making direct comparisons between my personal Escort and the V1 because I knew that I had an unfair advantage.

The reason I was trying to keep the "secret Escort tuning trick" a secret, is so that other users could take advantage of this potential for enhanced detection. I have sent a half-dozen folks to Escort to have this same thing done. They didn't ask for a custom tune or any such nonsense -they just told Escort that it wasn't working properly, or as well as advertised. In an effort to satisfy an apparantly unsatisfied customer, they will go all out -even if it means individually tuning each antenna on each detector that gets sent back.
Of the two people that I know personally, both were extremely pleased with their units once they were returned.

I fear that if Escort gets wind of this practice, then they will stop hand-tuning each returned unit. They will merely calibrate it to "within factory operating parameters".

btw, further up in the thread, someone posted that Bel (owned by Escort) is boasting that it's latest radar detector is "individually hand-tuned"...
...If it didn't help, would they even bother mentioning it..?

Originally posted by mbeach
...If it didn't help, would they even bother mentioning it..?

from a marketing point of view, they sure would - there will be people who assume that hand-tuned means better, and will purchase based upon that.

A "hand tuning" is only as good as the person doing the work. I am sort of curious what they do - do they just look at measured intensity, then poke at the antenna until they maximize that or something?

Originally posted by DrD
from a marketing point of view, they sure would - there will be people who assume that hand-tuned means better, and will purchase based upon that.

OK, but then why doesn't Bel say that ALL of their units are hand tuned? Bel only boasts "individual tuning" for their remote-mounted units. Bel does not boast of "individual tuning" for any of their dash-mounted detectors, even their highest-end dash-mounted detector. They probably sell 1000 dash units for every remote unit, so it would be a bigger business advantage to hype their dash units.

Anyway, like I said in a previous post, I once worked with a guy who wrote his doctoral thesis on antennas and he also made a comment about the importance of tuning.

I guess that I do give Scrappypower some credit for being straightforward and honest when talking with Escort. I personally think it would be nice if Escort would offer an explicit tuning service for some reasonable price. ($50?)

I asked Escort a couple of weeks ago about a "Performance Tune"
and if they offered this.

Escort emailed me back and said they do not offer this service for any model of their detectors.

Greg Downing

If they could tune an escort to beat a V1 off the shelf(not after a special tune session) then why wouldn't they just do it to be better than the V1? Every company out there wants to be better than their competitors. Maybe this is why people consider the V1s to be better. Not just for their features but because you can only get a V1 from the source. Maybe they take the time to tune the individual units in.
It doesn't make sense to me because if Escort had a shot at being better than a V1 and blowing it away , why not do it. Sure it may take longer to add a part or something here and there to the assembly line or whatever have you, but in the long run it would pay off. People want the best, and escort being sold in places like local stores and V1 not , I think escort would have a bigger upper hand. Maybe at first their quanity of units would be affected, but that's how companies expand. They sacrifice for something better. In this case , better units, units that would dominate the market. This would most definatley bring more customers. So if they coulda do it, why aren't they? It doesn't make sense to me.

Originally posted by Scrappypower
If they could tune an escort to beat a V1 off the shelf(not after a special tune session) then why wouldn't they just do it to be better than the V1?

It's been discussed above. Think about it - it took 0.5 hours for a technician to individual tune mbeach's detector. Now take a company like Bel, Cobra, Whistler, or Escort who manufacture in the millions and figure out how you can hand-tune every one that goes out.

A clever design can be mass-produced. Hand tuning can not.

Maybe V1 does hand-tune every one. I do not know. But they make far fewer radar detectors than all the others. Last I read, they account for much less than 1% of the total radar detector market.

It's a little like hand tuning every car. If Subaru had the time, they would individually dyno and tune every car for maximum power. This is what Cobb, Vishnu, etc. recommend for people coming in to their house. Manufacturing variations means that every car is a little different. But you can't do that on a mass production scale.

Scrappypower - I think that you are trying to refute the experience of some people that would apparently know more about antennas. I am not an expert on antenna's either, but what I have heard from an antenna expert and what mbeach says about radio hobbyists agree with each other.

It sounds like too many people have read this thread and Escort may be figuring out what's going on. Understandably, they have to draw the line somewhere as a business.

Your mention of a tuning "service" was interesting. Maybe an available "enthusiast's tune" for a small fee.
It is do-able. It would increase customer loyalty a bit. It would also give Escort a good measure of feedback about their products.

However, I'm afraid that the availablity of such a service would imply that their standard products are not optimized as they should be.

My PassPort is going to be 2 years old next month. I happen to know a guy who's a whiz with cone-style antennas. If we could rig up a frequency generator, maybe he could do a minor tune-up on my detector. I'm long out of warranty, what could be the harm (aside from having to get a new detector if we screw it up)?
I'll have to research all of the required bits and pieces to make it happen, I'll keep you all informed of the results.

EDIT: Upon conducting some research, and making some calls, I have come to the conclusion that my above idea is impossible in the home shop. Short of providing a separate antenna for each of the 3 bands of radar, there is no reliable way to improve the detector's reception quality without fine tuning the DSP circuits within the unit. It is in the circutry where the tuning is accomplished, not in the construction/quality of the antenna itself. The ability of the radar detector to be selective in alerts is accomplished by the anti-falsing software in the processor(s). Therefore, it is possible that the software can be manipulated, but this would requre extensive before/after testing in the required frequency ranges. This might take a half hour or so after any software "adjustments" are made to ensure that you have made beneficial changes.
Geek Out.

I called escort customer service and the commented that a custom tune would actually probably make it worse. That would be because the units are tuned to pick up within a certain range but be more sensitive to alert for an actual speed trap or etc. They don't custom tune for specific frequencies in regional areas other than the preset tune. And when they leave the factroy they are already "optimized" so to speak. Also that even if that was possible to somehow do that, you would be taking away from the passport.You are not helping it because you are taking away from the range of frequencies that it picks up, and it is made to pretty much not go off and give minimal false warnings. Further, they said they don't offer a reginal custom tune anyhow. If one was to send your 8500 to customer service, they would reprogram the exact same tune to it that it left with. The only way you would benifit was if you actually had an old version of the 8500(because it has been out for a very long time) or that it was dropped around a bit etc which would affect the sensitivity. I spoke with 3 people including the customer service supervisor on this matter, they seemed very nice and informative. One also commented that if indeed you saw improvment in your 8500 that it again, most likely was an older software version of the 8500 or was mishandled in some way to affect the preset factory "optimized" sensitivity. And that ifthe problem you are talking about with the unit unhooking itself with hard accerleration or stopping it would explain the misuse or unintended abuse to the unit

Throughout this entire post nobody has mentioned the main virtue of the 8500 its microprocessor. All other detectors have memory that stores functions and directions for specific readings, the 8500 actually has onboard a computer processor that over time of driving through a routine area can adapt to that area, getting rid of false alerts and tuning itself to spefic true threats. When I first got my 8500 it would light up approximately 5-6 times on my 5 mile commute to work. Over about 3 weeks time that number of alerts started to decrease. Now 6 months later No falses. And to add on the directional feature of the V1, yes it for sure is nice and I wish it was a feature on my 8500, but you CAN tell the direction of a threat with the 8500 by how the alert is made audible. Ive used both, the 8500 out performs the v1 in total detection and I personally like the features much better. Every usable feature the V1 has the 8500 also has. Give in guys the V1 isnt the king of the hill anymore.

_justin

Originally posted by DriftinS14
Give in guys the V1 isnt the king of the hill anymore.


www.Speedzones.com and www.radartest.com agree. The V1 is still an excellent unit - if I already had a V1, I wouldn't bother selling it to get an 8500. But if you have nothing right now, the V1, Escort 8500, and Bel 985 each have their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Originally posted by DriftinS14
the 8500 actually has onboard a computer processor that over time of driving through a routine area can adapt to that area, getting rid of false alerts and tuning itself to spefic true threats

I recently got a Bel 985 based on the fact that Bel and Escort are one in the same company and I had a chance to pick up a Bel 985 for $200 new. I have noticed the same behavior with the Bel 985 when set to its "auto" mode. The places where I got repeated false alarms no longer give me alarms after about 4 weeks.

Well, I just got my bro the newest version of the 8500 for xmas. All I know is he already says it has helped him out alot and that it picks up the cops wayyyyyyy before he can see them when they are quite a distance away. He actually says it picks cops up miles ahead of him.

I'm sure he has better stories but when I was with him it seemed to work really good. We were at a light and it started to beep and flash real slow. Then it would stop and beep again. It got a little faster then it stopped for a good 20 seconds. We were looking around for the cop since it was an intersection. The light turned green and we continued down the road. It started to flash and beep again. First it was slow then it gradually sped up. About a minute and a mile later we say the cop on the other side of the road flowing with traffic as the 8500 got louder and flashed really fast. Best damn detector I've ever seen and I witnessed what it is capable of.

FWIW I read recently that Bel and Escort have merged...

Also FWIW Escorts can be updated over the phone. The Solo S2 I am currently testing has a phone jack just for this purpose.

I have read that the V1 can also be updated similarly but I havent personaly looked at a recent model-

BF