Caught this on fark a couple days ago... did a search on "gout atkins", no results. Interesting reading.

Galloping gout is blamed on fad diets
Stephen Khan
Sunday January 18, 2004

In the nineteenth century it allowed cartoonists to poke fun at portly old gents with throbbing big toes. Now, however, gout is no laughing matter for a growing band of much younger men and women.
Rates of the incurable disease, once synonymous with outrageous, upper-class over-indulgence have more than doubled since the 1950s and experts are predicting a further surge as more people enjoy excessive lifestyles at an early age.

While carrying too much weight greatly increases the risk of gout, shedding weight quickly can also spark the condition. Rapid action weight loss plans such as the Atkins diet, which cut out entire food groups, are already precipitating attacks.

Gout strikes when uric acid builds up in the body to such an extent that the kidneys are unable to flush it out. The acid crystallises, then collects around joints. In 70 per cent of cases the first area hit is the big toe, to which crystals are drawn by gravity.

Gout can cause excruciating pain and lack of mobility. Eventually, crystal build-up can wear down joints to such an extent that they are rendered useless.

Famous victims of the arthritic condition include numerous Dickens characters along with real-life sufferers Henry VIII, Alfred Lord Tennyson, Immanuel Kant, Samuel Johnson and Thomas Jefferson. Another, Benjamin Franklin, described it as an enemy which 'would not only torment my body to death, but ruin my good name', such was gout's association with alcohol.

Ian Phillips doesn't drink any more. He's only 30, but the security guard at Heathrow Airport has been plagued by gout for seven years. 'I was 23 when it began,' he said. 'I thought I had a broken ankle, or perhaps a sprain. But the pain was too extreme for that. It went undiagnosed for four years. When the tests came in I couldn't believe it. I thought, "How have I got gout? That's a disease rich old folk get."'

Phillips had a fairly stable diet and hadn't touched alcohol since the age of 20, but for four years beforehand he'd been in the Royal Navy and admits to having drunk heavily. Often, though, there is a hereditary factor and Phillips's grandfather was also a sufferer. When he was diagnosed, Phillips was teased by friends, but since then his condition has worsened and they have seen just how debilitating a condition it can be. 'The pain is hard to describe. I'm a 6ft 3inch doorman and security guard, but it has had me in tears.'

Ankles, knees, elbows, and shins are all affected. He has spent lengthy periods in hospital and, on occasions, has been confined to a wheelchair. 'I started a new job last year and I had a bad attack soon afterwards, resulting in two weeks off work. It's embarrassing, but what can I do? I'm afraid that I will soon become unemployable.'

Many more women are now having to deal with the disease. Once, there were vir tually no female gout sufferers, but now one in five people with the disease is a woman.

Shelly Rees-Langley had her first attack in the middle of the night. She was 38 years old. It came shuddering up from her big toe. 'It was excruciating,' she said. Her husband rushed her to hospital and the hospital diagnosed it as gout. It was Boxing Day and hospital staff asked Rees-Langley if she'd been indulging over the festive season. She had not. But she had been dieting.

Dr Michael Snaith of the UK Gout Society, a charity which was formed a year ago to raise awareness of the growing affliction, believes the type of gout sufferer is changing and that many more women will develop symptoms in coming years.

'It is almost inevitable that younger women will start to develop gout because they are getting fatter and binge-drinking,' he said. 'I expect to see a lot more women with gout, as they are behaving more like men in their eating and drinking habits.'

About 0.5 per cent of the UK population in the Fifties suffered from gout. The latest figures suggest that figure is now around 1 per cent - 500,000 people.

Dr Snaith added that the Atkins diet could precipitate gout, because, as a high-protein diet, it burns off fat and produces lactic acid. It then joins a queue of acids waiting to be expelled by the kidneys and uric acid levels remain high. Crystallisation follows.That is what happened to 40-year-old Richard Jaques.

'I'm an ex-rugby player and carry a bit of weight,' he said. 'I went on the Atkins last year.' The side-effects of the diet triggered an attack. Jaques is hit by three or four bouts of gout a year, but the Atkins-led episode was different. 'Normally it comes on quickly, but when I was following the Atkins it built up slowly over three weeks. By the end I was in a lot of pain.'

Cliff notes: The gout's making a comeback, and diets like Atkins aren't helping matters. Discuss.

I wear these brown orthopedic shoes
'Cause I got a bad case of the gout.
I know you want seconds on the corn dogs,
But there's no reason to shout.
Everybody gets enough food
Down here in Lunch Lady Land.

I did some grocery shopping last night. My grocery store has taken to putting little "Carb Friendly" indicators on certain foods that have low carbs. I also counted no less than five separate varieties of "Low Carb" bread.

I really don't get it. I meant, I understand the desire for a magic-bullet, but whatever happened to eating a balance diet and getting some exercise as a means of staying fit?

Don't get me wrong, I know that it's harder for some people to stay *slim* (which I don't necessarily equate with fitness -- I'm a prime example of an unfit skinny guy), but who in their right mind thinks that cutting any type of nutritional element from their diet *completely* will not be deleterious in the long-term?

Originally posted by gongzero
but whatever happened to eating a balance diet and getting some exercise as a means of staying fit?

Ahhh!!!! Un-American!!!! I'm calling the dept. of homeland security on you. Look the only way to get fit is something that's: quick, simple, and most of all EASY!!! Exercise - are you insane? Balanced diet? Watch what you eat? WTH is wrong with you? I might just have to sue you for the pain you have caused my eyes by typing such terrible things.

Originally posted by docwhorocks
Ahhh!!!! Un-American!!!!

I'm Canuckistani, 'member? :p

But yeah, I know what you mean. I think everyone here in North America is getting too used to this instant-gratification no-effort/no-accountability mentality that we see everywhere and wants it present in every aspect of their lives -- including their health.

Originally posted by gongzero
I'm Canuckistani, 'member? :p


I'm still calling the dept. of homeland security on you. You're trying to destroy my way of life! :p

Are we going to argue all of this again? You asses aren't happy when we're fat and complain about that. Then you complain when we try to lose weight?! Is that stuff any different than food that says LOW FAT!!! all over it? Jesus Christ, get a flippin' life.

how about this, lettucemanattee style?

YOU ***ERS!!

Being serious, gout is totally avoidable via diet.
Its ridiculous and yes it is affecting more and more people.

Gout is quite painful and uncomfortable a condition (some refer to it as a disease which I think is bogus) but can easily be remedied by reducing ones intake of sugars, eating a balanced diet (i.e. not large percentages of protein) and exercising. Its that simple, no pills or meds required.

Good Post!

- Janq

Originally posted by Star*Child
Are we going to argue all of this again? You asses aren't happy when we're fat and complain about that. Then you complain when we try to lose weight?! Is that stuff any different than food that says LOW FAT!!! all over it? Jesus Christ, get a flippin' life.

It's a little different than the unbiquitous "low fat" stickers everywhere. Saying that bread is "low carb" is like putting a "low fat" sticker on a tub of lard. It's ridiculous.

Short of that, yeah, I'm sick of the Atkins discussion too.

Originally posted by gongzero
Caught this on fark a couple days ago... did a search on "gout atkins", no results. Interesting reading.



Cliff notes: The gout's making a comeback, and diets like Atkins aren't helping matters. Discuss.


By this logic, you know what else can be a precursor to gout? Caffiene. It acts as a diarhetic(sp) causing you urinate more; however when you're sleeping the toxins can build up in your kidney and cause gout!

The leap of logic here is astounding. Drink water and you'll be fine.

For inforamtion on Gout and prevention of this condition reference the information as provided by the NIH 'MedLine' health information site; http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/goutandpseudogout.html

"...Gout has been recognized for more than 2,000 years, making it one of humankind's oldest known diseases. In the past, gout was often known as "the disease of kings" because it was associated with wealthy men who overindulged in rich food and drink. Today, it's known that gout is a complex disorder that can affect anyone. In fact, it's a painful problem for more than 2 million Americans.
It's true that men are more likely to get gout, but women become increasingly susceptible to it after menopause. Fortunately, gout is treatable, and there are ways to keep it from recurring." - The Mayo Clinic

- Janq

Originally posted by Jonn
By this logic, you know what else can be a precursor to gout? Caffiene. It acts as a diarhetic(sp) causing you urinate more; however when you're sleeping the toxins can build up in your kidney and cause gout!

The leap of logic here is astounding. Drink water and you'll be fine.

Yep ^^

People think that coffee, soda, and other caffeinated beverages are benign. The drink may not kill you but the effects of its ingredients (caffeine) just might make your life suck.

Drinking more water and less sugar & caffeine injected junk can be the cure all for many things that ail folks.

- Janq

my dad has gout. it formed in his left index finger after suffering an injury there-- fracture the bone/knuckle a bit. I haven't looked at his feet/ankles recently but I presume they are fine, just the injury site so far.

his diet sucks now. red meat once per week at most, 8 oz. ANY other meat including fish, poultry, etc, once per day at most 8 oz. no beans, no spinach, no nothing high in protein.

he did drink a fair bit of caffiene and little water. he wasn't on atkins but he did have a pretty poor diet. not especially high in protein that I know of, however.

Originally posted by ColinL
my dad has gout. it formed in his left index finger after suffering an injury there-- fracture the bone/knuckle a bit. I haven't looked at his feet/ankles recently but I presume they are fine, just the injury site so far.

his diet sucks now. red meat once per week at most, 8 oz. ANY other meat including fish, poultry, etc, once per day at most 8 oz. no beans, no spinach, no nothing high in protein.

he did drink a fair bit of caffiene and little water. he wasn't on atkins but he did have a pretty poor diet. not especially high in protein that I know of, however.

Colin,

Your dad most likely have developed arthritis in that finger as a result of the accident you mentioned. Then following times of poor diet/eating he may at times suffer bouts of gout on & off following a rich meal whther it be proteins or high sugar content.

The more typical case though is that folks with no prior specific injury eat like dinosaurs (large quantities of red meat) and/or do not eat balanced diets nor consume much if any actual water (only soft drinks & coffee) then they end up with swollen ankles, inflamed sores at the feet, swollen lower limbs and the classic throbbing toe(s).

Your dad gets a pass if you will though of course as you noted a diet adjustment however slight might do him well. Meanwhile for the other 60% of Americans who are overweight if not obese a bout of gout is the result of diet not injury, and can be resolved simply.

- Janq

Originally posted by TimStevens
It's a little different than the unbiquitous "low fat" stickers everywhere. Saying that bread is "low carb" is like putting a "low fat" sticker on a tub of lard. It's ridiculous.

Short of that, yeah, I'm sick of the Atkins discussion too.


I thought you were doing atkins, tim? didn't you even look at the nutrtion information on the flippin label of the bread?!?

You're wrong. It's not anything near the same and you're perpetuating bull****

Originally posted by Star*Child
I thought you were doing atkins, tim? didn't you even look at the nutrtion information on the flippin label of the bread?!?

You're wrong. It's not anything near the same and you're perpetuating bull****

Nope, not doing atkins. I'm losing weight, but by eating differently and working out more.

The bread advertised as "Low carb" was just whole grain wheat.

I didn't really post this as an affront to Atkins directly, or the obese/overweight.

I just find it interesting that an illness like gout, thought to be something that afflicted folks in time of yore, had long since been wiped out in countries like the US and UK where nutritional knowledge has advanced -- and that now it's making a comeback, despite this. Kinda ironic, I guess.

I personally don't listen to anything nutrition-related. One day it's the miracle food, and the next day you're wondering what that lump is.

And Janq, I hear you. If people actually *do* think that coffees and sodas are harmless, then it's fair to say that common sense has long since left the building. It's the same as people suing McDonald's and Burger King for making them fat.

PS: My Twizzlers say "fat-free". Combine that with some sugar-free lard and I'm gonna live forevAr! :lol:

Originally posted by Johnny Knoxville
I wear these brown orthopedic shoes
'Cause I got a bad case of the gout.
I know you want seconds on the corn dogs,
But there's no reason to shout.
Everybody gets enough food
Down here in Lunch Lady Land.


schloppy joes...schlopp schloppy joes...

Originally posted by gongzero
...I just find it interesting that an illness like gout, thought to be something that afflicted folks in time of yore, had long since been wiped out in countries like the US and UK where nutritional knowledge has advanced -- and that now it's making a comeback, despite this. Kinda ironic, I guess...If people actually *do* think that coffees and sodas are harmless, then it's fair to say that common sense has long since left the building. It's the same as people suing McDonald's and Burger King for making them fat...

Preach.

- Janq

Gout frickin' hurts ... if I eat meat every meal for 3 or 4 days straight, my left ankle would hurt like hell. Don't know what that crap about alcohol is, I never drink. :furious:

Originally posted by Janq
Your dad most likely have developed arthritis in that finger as a result of the accident you mentioned. Then following times of poor diet/eating he may at times suffer bouts of gout on & off following a rich meal whther it be proteins or high sugar content.

he could have some arthritis in it, but there's no question he has gout... you can see the deposits along the knuckle and edge of the bone, and he has awful mobility. and I'm not talking a small bump, I'm talking about a dime-sized lump raised at least 1/4".

Originally posted by bemani
Gout frickin' hurts ... if I eat meat every meal for 3 or 4 days straight, my left ankle would hurt like hell. Don't know what that crap about alcohol is, I never drink. :furious:

Alcohol is not the only cause. High blood sugars is another catalyst. Go to the link I provided above via NIH and learn more.

Don't get mad, get educated. :)

- Janq

Originally posted by ColinL
he could have some arthritis in it, but there's no question he has gout... you can see the deposits along the knuckle and edge of the bone, and he has awful mobility. and I'm not talking a small bump, I'm talking about a dime-sized lump raised at least 1/4".

No doubt he has gout.
Have him get to a doc and see about having it treated.

Once the conditon gets to that stage (lumps) its all about management and less so prevention. :(

- Janq

I don't know what Gout is, but this atkins diet is stupid. Athletes and body builders have been following a strict protein rich moderate, MODERATE carb diet for ages. The atkins diet works to get ripped fast no doubt. But its unhealthy. Lazy people trying to get skinny without any hard work. STOOPID.

good body = good genetics + hard work + a good diet (6-8 meals a day) + Time.

Quit being so damn lazy and get to a gym.

Originally posted by Janq
Alcohol is not the only cause. High blood sugars is another catalyst. Go to the link I provided above via NIH and learn more.

Don't get mad, get educated. :)

- Janq

Well I pretty much know about my gout situation ... I haven't had a serious (immobilizing) attack in 3 years or so. Just have to have my blood checked twice a year for uric acid.

Oh boy... IBanotherAtkinsflamewar

Originally posted by bemani
Well I pretty much know about my gout situation ... I haven't had a serious (immobilizing) attack in 3 years or so. Just have to have my blood checked twice a year for uric acid.

Most people never learn how to manage their conditions.
They just suffer and keep eating/smoking/drinking...then sue somebody. :)

- Janq

I suffered with gout attacks for 3 years. Then I realized red meat was my trigger to an attack.
I now eat red meat only once a week, and I haven't had an attack in several months (knock on wood).

Gout as a whole, sucks major ***. I can feel an attack coming on a couple days before it starts, but all I can do is try to prepare for the pain. And when the main guy in the article was talking about "I'm 6'3", (blah, blah, blah) gout would bring me to tears." is like hearing me say those words. (I'm 6'4")

Imagine somone taking a redhot needle and jamming it through a joint. Then twisting it for 48 hours non stop. That's what it's like to experience a gout attack. I've had kidney stones, been stabbed through the hand with a hat pin, been bitten by countless dogs, 5 knee surgeries, broken bones, skiing accidents (See knee surgeries), 2nd degree burns on my shoulders, and countless other mishaps I've gotten myself into, and I can say easily, gout has the worst pain ever.

Originally posted by tcs007
Gout as a whole, sucks major ***. I can feel an attack coming on a couple days before it starts, but all I can do is try to prepare for the pain. And when the main guy in the article was talking about "I'm 6'3", (blah, blah, blah) gout would bring me to tears." is like hearing me say those words. (I'm 6'4")


Did you see your doctor about the gout? I know what you mean by feeling the attack coming several days in advance. I was prescribed an anti-inflamatory drug that works REALLY well for these occasions. I use to just take ibuprofen, but these work better by a long shot. I would feel normal the next day.

:lol: @ Tim :)

Gotcha re:the bread. Always check the label because it can't (okay, it's not supposed to) lie. :D (sorry for the harshness of that post, I was really angry about other things and I was taking it out on you.)

Originally posted by Rentalpillow7
I don't know what Gout is, but this atkins diet is stupid. Athletes and body builders have been following a strict protein rich moderate, MODERATE carb diet for ages. The atkins diet works to get ripped fast no doubt. But its unhealthy. Lazy people trying to get skinny without any hard work. STOOPID.

good body = good genetics + hard work + a good diet (6-8 meals a day) + Time.

Quit being so damn lazy and get to a gym.

YEAH! ignorance abounds :) did you know that atkins is about MODERATE carb intake? I bet you didn't. that's because you're spouting off about crap you don't know anything about. If you're going to add your two cents, make sure they're not canadian money.


You still people against atkins only seem to be familiar with the first stage where you get yourself on track and used to cutting out sugars and flours from your diet. Those are the bad things. Not fruit, not veggies. It's bread and refined sugars. Did you know that carbs are reintroduced in the second stage...more in the third and by the fourth you should have an idea of what a healthy diet should be.

The problem with people who have problems while on a low carb is that they abuse the system once they realize that cutting all carbs makes you lose weight. They binge on carbs and then cut them out again. This is not good for your system and you'll actually develop a metabolic resistance.

Please, everyone, stop with the stop being lazy or the stop eating bad foods bit. Often those are small contributions to a larger problem that's incredibly difficult to overcome in someone who's been fighting their weight their entire life.

Gout has been on the rebound snce before the whole Atkins/South Beach/Hi-Protein diet fad got big.

As mentioned earlier hi protein diets have been a staple for bodybuilders and strength training since forever, and yet gout is not existant in that area.

Its Joe & Jane Q. Public that outside of medical reasons are experiencing the sudden spike in cases of gout. Aside from those who posted earlier with specific medical issues and/or ongoing management these people, John & Jane Q. Public, had no issues 5 or 3 or even a year ago. Then suddenly they are running in droves to their doctors complaining of a throbbing pain and swelling in the lower extremties and about the feet and toes.

There's a reason for this and it has nothing to do with moderate carb intake and everything to with immoderate protein, carb and sugary food & drink tinake as well as little to no exercise and a low fluid uptake, as in water.

Its not a pretty picture but thats the sketch as reported by health care professionals at the front lines. :(

- Janq

Originally posted by Star*Child
YEAH! ignorance abounds :) did you know that atkins is about MODERATE carb intake? I bet you didn't. that's because you're spouting off about crap you don't know anything about. If you're going to add your two cents, make sure they're not canadian money.

Sorry ma'am, but I gotta disagree :) I wouldn't call 30-50 carbs a day "moderate" when the daily reccomended allowance of carbs is 300. Eating 1/10 of what you ate before of anything isn't a moderate cutback, it's damn-near eliminating it!

Originally posted by TimStevens
Sorry ma'am, but I gotta disagree :) I wouldn't call 30-50 carbs a day "moderate" when the daily reccomended allowance of carbs is 300. Eating 1/10 of what you ate before of anything isn't a moderate cutback, it's damn-near eliminating it!

300 grams of carbs a day is a ridiculous amount. that's 300 grams of sugar that you're allowed to take in a day. 200 grams is about a cup of sugar. a cup. Then you're allowed another 100 grams on to of that. I realize that your carb intake is not all refined sugars, but I don't think people realize things like how much sugar is in a pop...or how many carbs are really in a piece of bread.

If you're excercising and not in a losing weight phase, you should be able to take in somewhere aroun 60-90 grams of carbs a day. Just because this diet does not agree with the food pyramid doesn't necessarily mean that it's wrong.

Try cutting down on your carbs and see how much better you feel when you're not constantly running on a simple sugar high and/or feeling the sugar high downers all day. Heck, most people can't even give up sugar for a week.

Next time you're in the grocery store, take a look at how many carbs are in the everydayitems you buy...from soup, to a slice of bread, to rice, pop, ice cream.

...also, do you really believe that the US Gov would backpeddle on the food pyramid at this point? No way. Open your mind, my friend, and take a look at other options out there. I'm not saying go full blown and jump right into it...but try and lower your carb intake a bit and see how it affects you.

Originally posted by TimStevens
Oh boy... IBanotherAtkinsflamewar
Too late :lol:

Anyway, what defines a "balanced diet"? Just because they put something up on the shelves of your local grocery store, it automatically becomes a part of a 'balanced diet' that's ok in 'moderation'? What if they put rat poison up there and put a sticker on it that said "Extra tasty"?

I know exactly how many carbs are in most of what I eat, and sugar to boot, because I spent about two months counting carbs and fat and all that jazz so that I knew what I was taking in. I currently eat between 250 and 300 grams of carbs a day, maybe 40 grams of fat a day, and as much protein as I can get, and as I mentioned above, I'm losing weight.

And I understand that the pyramid may be a bit off, but if someone is used to eating 200-300 grams of carbs a day, going to 30-50 is not a "moderate" cut-back.

Originally posted by TimStevens
I know exactly how many carbs are in most of what I eat, and sugar to boot, because I spent about two months counting carbs and fat and all that jazz so that I knew what I was taking in. I currently eat between 250 and 300 grams of carbs a day, maybe 40 grams of fat a day, and as much protein as I can get, and as I mentioned above, I'm losing weight.

And I understand that the pyramid may be a bit off, but if someone is used to eating 200-300 grams of carbs a day, going to 30-50 is not a "moderate" cut-back.


Not that's not a moderate cut-back, but while you guys all focus on the first stages of the atkins diet, there are OTHER stages where carbs are reintroduced. Once you reach the final stage of atkins, your habits are reformed and you no longer reach for chips when you're hungry. The first stages of atkins are about changing your habits and your ways of thinking about food through positive reinforcement.

My big downfall (in hindsight) was potatoes and rice and not so much chips and pop (although they were definitely contributers). I'd eat one of those two with pretty much every meal. It's not like I gorged myself in every sitting, but I have a pretty sedentary job without a lot of active hobbies (couldn't attend martial arts anymore since I got off so late). That combination spells F.A.T.

I'm also not denying that there are other ways to lose weight. that's not what I am arguing or even talking about here. I've done it myself...pretty much what you're doing. In fact, I lost 100 pounds. After about 8 months, I started slowly puting it back on after my job changed and I didn't reform my work outhabits to my new schedule.

I better not get into this one or the mods will slap me for "trolling" again. :rolleyes:

BUT, let's all keep in mind that there is a difference between good carbs and bad carbs. People should continue to eat whole grains, wild rice, etc. but SHOULD eliminate soda, candy bars, white bread, etc. I think this is primarily where Atkins should be better defined or explained.

In my last issue of Discover there was and article describing a study of 30,000 people's diets over 20+ years. Conclusions were interesting and fell closer towards Atkins than the "traditional" USDA food pyramid. There was however a strong discouragement of trans-fats like red meat, bacon, cheese, butter etc. which I think? is a part of most Atkiner's diets.

Oh yea, on topic, I think gout has more to do with lack of good excercise and water intake than straight up diet.

Originally posted by SubaruCO
There was however a strong discouragement of trans-fats like red meat, bacon, cheese, butter etc. which I think? is a part of most Atkiner's diets.

You're really close :) Transfats are bad, but they're usually present in things like margarine. Atkins actually specifically dictates staying away from these.


Q: How can consumers know if a product contains trans fat if it’s not identified on the nutrition label?

A: Consumers can know if a food contains trans fat by looking at the ingredient list on the food label. If the ingredient list includes the words “shortening,” “partially hydrogenated vegetable oil” or “hydrogenated vegetable oil,” the food contains trans fat. Because ingredients are listed in descending order of predominance, smaller amounts are present when the ingredient is close to the end of the list.

from:
http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/transfat/q_a.html

From your site: http://www.fda.gov/oc/initiatives/transfat/q_a.html
"some margarines". I like to use the canola oil based ones, you know the ones with good fats!

I think the flame wars here start from lack of information. Like you said Atkins days trans-fats are bad, but our secretary (executive assssistant, whatever) would come in every morning with this pile of bacon. I incredulously inquired, "What are you eating?" She replied, "It's OK I'm on the Atkins diet!" :huh:

It's funny that the "Atkins Friendly" Turkey Bacon Ranch wrap at Subway has 28 grams of fat, and the Atkins friendly Thick Burger at Hardee's is about 40 grams. 1/2 and 2/3, respctively, of the RDA of the typical person's diet.

So...take a big thick greasy burger loaded with fat and cholesterol, throw away the bun and wrap it in lettuce, suddenly it's good for you. :huh:

As for Subway, how can they have one menu that says their subs with 6 grams of fat or less are healthy and then turn around and say this wrap with nearly 5 times the fat is also healthy?????

guys...like I already said earlier, be sure you understand what you're bashing before you bash it. Maybe if you understood the principles of how your body uses what you eat...all of this might make more sense. I'm not going to retype this as it's been hashed many times here in OT. Do a search on my screen name and look for the recipe thread.

You can lose weight on a low fat diet and a low carb diet. You don't mix them together...that's not good. low fat food is ironically higher in carbs. just because someone loads a low fat food with sugar doesn't make it good for you.

You have to understand what you're eating and not simply shove things into your mouth without question.

bacon is fine for atkins. a plate of bacon is not. the atkins book specifically says to eat until your are full, but this is not a license to gorge yourself.

I recommend you study up a bit just to get the jist of the biological reason it works. I felt the same way as you guys did at one point and I refused to even read the atkins book. Then one day I was on the toilet and there it was. 30 minutes (and some pins and needles legs) later I couldn't wait to start on it.