Below is an excerpt from the Lafayette Journal and Courier, the hometown newspaper for Subaru of Indiana Automotive (SIA), the factory that builds all the Legacys and Outbacks sold in North America. The full article can be found at http://www.lafayettejc.com/news20040206/200402064local_news1076043713.shtml.Along with the all-new 2005 Legacy, the Outback models will be built at the Subaru of Indiana Automotive Inc. plant in Lafayette, with ceremonies to mark the official start of production scheduled for Feb. 27.

"We'll do 10 a day the first week, then 20 a day and continue to build to full production in April and May," said Tom Easterday, SIA's vice president of human resources and corporate affairs, who attended Thursday's showing at McCormick Place South.

"I think it's going to sell really well. The associates are excited. There are a lot of enhanced safety features."

Dubbed the "third generation" of Outback vehicles, the model line that will reach dealers' showrooms in late May or early June and will help counter the end of Isuzu production at the SIA plant in late July.

Easterday said some layoffs will be necessary when Isuzu's contract ends July 23. About 400 associates are working exclusively on the Isuzu line, but the number who will be furloughed from their jobs won't be determined until late May.

"Outback is important to the company and Subaru of Indiana Automotive in Lafayette," Adcock said during the media day event. "Obviously, you want to see good sales results so we'll see good things at the plant."

SIA build rates for the 2005 Outbacks are expected to be around 8,000 per month, while production of the all-new Legacy is initially planned at approximately 6,500 per month.

Does anyone still have concerns that the SIA plant will produce inferior or more-flaws-per X-thousand vehicles than the Gunma (?)plant?

I thought research has shown that the Subarus built in Indiana have far fewer problems per 100 cars than those imported from Gunma. I remember reading about some study on these forums.

My Subaru was built in Indiana and it is now almost 10 years old. It still runs like new after 130k miles (except for the paint).

Originally posted by BJamerican
I thought research has shown that the Subarus built in Indiana have far fewer problems per 100 cars than those imported from Gunma. I remember reading about some study on these forums.

I remember that too.

My 98 OB is nothing but trouble. I can't even remember how many factory recalls this car had (more than 3). I sure hope they get better after so many years because I'm interested in the new '05 OBXT.

FWIW, recalls are generally due to design or supplier problems, not assembly problems...

Originally posted by sovereignmk1
I remember that too. Haha, you guys have longer memories than the average reader here. :)

You're remembering the results of a JD Power Initial Quality Study reported last May and discussed in this thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=357613

Originally posted by Chromer
FWIW, recalls are generally due to design or supplier problems, not assembly problems...


Or the Quality Control from that plant that didn't spot the faulty supplier parts in the first place.

Originally posted by BJamerican
I thought research has shown that the Subarus built in Indiana have far fewer problems per 100 cars than those imported from Gunma. I remember reading about some study on these forums.



Hmm, that may be true, as Jon's post demonstrates, but also in that post it shows that though the SIA plant may be better than Japan, Subaru in general is pretty terrible; it ranks 3rd-to-last out of the manufacturers in the test.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003028.

But there's a lot of bad news for Subaru in this press release.

There is a graph ranking all corporations based on problems per 100 vehicles (PP100), where the corporate average is 133 PP100. Subaru of America is way down near the bottom, with a 146 PP100, ahead of only Mitsubishi and Kia.

There is another graph ranking all nameplates, and Subaru's 146 PP100 ranks it at only 28 out of the 36 nameplates.


http://www.jdpower.com/presspass/pr/images/2003028a.gif


...guess we can *hope* they've improved...but we'll have to wait until there's another ranking...

"initial quality" is not that meaningful; what really matter is long-term reliability, and Subaru has done pretty well on that.

Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
"initial quality" is not that meaningful; what really matter is long-term reliability, and Subaru has done pretty well on that.

Dunno, if you're on a 2 or 3yr lease, and have a number of niggling problems, it may well be the end of your desire for Subaru.

The 'upscale' market SoA is gunning for wants quality from the moment they sign the papers to the moment they turn it back in.

True, it would help their image to have fewer initial problems, but I don't think that survey tells anything more than which cars have minor problems in the first few months. It's pretty much useless for predicting major problems years later. Consumer Reports is much better for that, and they rank Subarus very high.

Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
"initial quality" is not that meaningful; what really matter is long-term reliability, and Subaru has done pretty well on that.

Initial quality is like the honeymoon period. Long-term satisfaction is far more important.

Bob

Originally posted by rsholland
Initial quality is like the honeymoon period. Long-term satisfaction is far more important.

Bob

Yeah, but everyone's really in it for the SEX!!! :lol:

Well, I got some interesting info to share with you guys as I just got back from the Philly Show and was able to spend some time with someone who had some inside info....

Before I continue, do me a favor and don't start questioning my post as to 'who's the source' and 'that's bogus' and 'they're full of it'.... take it for what it's worth.... I never post anything here unless it's concrete... at least as they claim!

Here we go:

>May 17 will be the available date for "I" models of the Legacy in dealerships.
>From 1-2 weeks into June ALL Legacy & Outback Turbos will be at showing up at dealers.
>H6 will be available mid to late June
>All Legacy's w/ Auto will have the VTD
>Fully loaded GT sedan will be in the $28-$29k range (Sorry no info on the wagon but you can bet it'll be in that range as well).
>Base (Limited) Legacy models will be in $25-$26k range.
>7 Psngr. truck will be in NY Auto Show
>Navigation is 'in the talks' as an option for upscale models only
>OnStar on H6 models only
>No full size spare... at all
>Baja will come in two models only: Sport & Turbo with Hard Rear Cover.
>B9 will not be shown in NY Auto Show because Subaru pulled the car to 'touch up' the design, as per feedback in Europe and Detroit (prior to public opening)
>No mention on Xenons as of yet (maybe option).
>7 Psngr. truck will have the 2-3-2 seat layout
>Warranty changes (better) are in the makes for the 2005 models because of new added safety features.
>7 Psngr. truck will have similar design to Lexus RX 300/330.
>March 9: All dealers will have info on specs, options & pricing.

I mixed up the info as they came... hopefully you'll catch them, otherwise reread :D

All I can say is that it was a informative and productive visit :banana:

By the way, I'm 6'5" and fit in the Legacy Wagon, the interior space is the same on the Sedan so I'm happy I already placed my order... WOOOOOHHOOOOOOOOOO!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

$25-26K for the BASE models??? :eek:

That's quite a leap from the current base model. I think Subaru may actually lose some sales with a base price that high. Aren't the current L-SE models around $19k? That's a 6-7k leap in price!

If it's going to be that much more money, I want an engine that produces more than 168HP.

Originally posted by BJamerican
$25-26K for the BASE models??? :eek:

That's quite a leap from the current base model. I think Subaru may actually lose some sales with a base price that high. Aren't the current L-SE models around $19k? That's a 6-7k leap in price!

If it's going to be that much more money, I want an engine that produces more than 168HP.

I'm guessing what he meant was $25-26K for the BASE TURBO models.

Originally posted by BJamerican
$25-26K for the BASE models??? :eek:

That's quite a leap from the current base model. I think Subaru may actually lose some sales with a base price that high. Aren't the current L-SE models around $19k? That's a 6-7k leap in price!

If it's going to be that much more money, I want an engine that produces more than 168HP.


Sorry... let me rephrase or add something I left out...

The base model ("I") 'Limited". For instance, leather, moonroof, CD Changer and so on... ~ Which is the one they had on the floor. ;) NOT the turbo...

So does "Fully loaded GT sedan will be in the $28-$29k range" refer to a fully loaded GT Limited, or will that actually cost more? (Of course my real question is what the actual price of a base GT will be.)

The price mentioned above for the 2.5i Limited does not seem too off base in my mind. Content-wise, is it not similar to the MY04 2.5 GT Sedan which has a sticker price of $25,220? Unless this assumption is inaccurate, it would seem that a price tag between $25k and $26k for the 2.5i Limited would represent very little actual increase.

Uhh...7 passenger... "truck"...? I assume you mean SUV or this thing is going to be one fugly extended cab truck! :lol:

By the way, I HOPE Subaru changed their mind, but I was told a week ago by their PR person directly that no info will be given out about the 7 passenger until the beginning of 2005. Hope you're right though as that is a long friggin time to wait to see my next car (if it has rear-facing third row, it will NOT be happening for me).

will the H6 looks better than 2.5 gt?
:o

Originally posted by BJamerican
$25-26K for the BASE models??? :eek:

That's quite a leap from the current base model. I think Subaru may actually lose some sales with a base price that high. Aren't the current L-SE models around $19k? That's a 6-7k leap in price!

If it's going to be that much more money, I want an engine that produces more than 168HP.

I agree, that is too much for a 168HP four with not great torque. They should be 1-2K lower for the 2.5i limited in my opinion. The current L-SE models is an example of excellent value, but I can't say the same of a 2.5i limited at 25-26k.

I really want a new Legacy wagon but I may be forced to go with a Mazda 6 sport wagon or passat?

Originally posted by BigElm
>Fully loaded GT sedan will be in the $28-$29k range (Sorry no info on the wagon but you can bet it'll be in that range as well).
>Base (Limited) Legacy models will be in $25-$26k range.


Is the $28-$29k range for the GT Limted or the GT?

Originally posted by BigElm

>7 Psngr. truck will have similar design to Lexus RX 300/330.


:confused: If that's the case I don't see the point; it won't be any bigger than an Outback and similar ground clearance. I was expecting something bigger.

Originally posted by rotorbaru
I agree, that is too much for a 168HP four with not great torque. They should be 1-2K lower for the 2.5i limited in my opinion. The current L-SE models is an example of excellent value, but I can't say the same of a 2.5i limited at 25-26k.

I really want a new Legacy wagon but I may be forced to go with a Mazda 6 sport wagon or passat?

Yah, must be a product of their efforts to move "UP market", publicized last summer. Pricing is being used to bolster market image, not as a function of costs. $25K is not a lot in the "up market" territory where brands like VW / Saab sit.

Originally posted by gumball
$25K is not a lot in the "up market" territory where brands like VW / Saab sit.

And 168 HP is not a lot in the "up market" segment either. I was expecting the NA 2.5 engine to produce at least 180-190 HP with the introduction of the 2005 Legacies.

I mean come on, you can get a Toyota Matrix for $18K with a 1.8L engine that produces 173 HP, not to mention is has a 6-speed tranny. I realize that it is in a different class than the Legacy, but I think the 2.5L should have more potential than 168HP.

I'm just not seeing ANY value here.

Yes, I don't under stand the Sub 200 Hp rating on the Legacy as well.

Originally posted by BJamerican

I mean come on, you can get a Toyota Matrix for $18K with a 1.8L engine that produces 173 HP, not to mention is has a 6-speed tranny.

Yeah, but that's only at high rpm with no corresponding torque. For everyday driving the Legacy 2.5 is better despite lower peak hp. The area under the torque curve is what really matters.

Also, Subaru promised price increases only in the 3-5% range. I really doubt the base Legacy will start at 25k. If you read BigElm's post again, that is for the Limited model (= lots of "luxury" features). I expect the base Legacy to be more like 21k.

Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
:confused: If that's the case I don't see the point; it won't be any bigger than an Outback and similar ground clearance. I was expecting something bigger.

The point is "7 seats"!! Extra passenger carrying ability is important to a lot of us out here! I hope it doesn't look too much like the Licksass ... uhh.. Lexus because that car is ugly as sin! The Acura MDX would be a better choice in that class (although I'm still pulling for the rumoured Murano look!).

I'd guess the $28-$29k for the GT is definitely the Limited trim. How else do you interpret "fully loaded"? I bet the base GT model will come in about $26-$27k.

Sounds perfect to me. I'll be getting the wagon for just under $30K. Exactly what I was hoping for as it's only competitors (V70R and S4 Avant) cost AT LEAST $10k more. ;) :D :banana:

-Ian

I have a picture of the 7 passenger crossover, but somehow the forum rules indicated I can't post attachment.

you can send to one of us and we can host it for you.

Meanwhile, can you describe it to us? Which car did it look like? Hope you can post the picture soon :)

Here's the image from MR. WRX:

http://www.zeode.com/subsuvsmall.jpg

And a link to a bigger version. (http://www.zeode.com/subsuv.jpg)

We have seen this picture before on these boards... I had forgotten about it. It seems to be a fairly realistic looking design (except that it lacks the new grille).

It appears that there really is no equivalent to the L model anymore. The "i" definitely seems to have more content than did the "L." That must be an upscale move.

I remember it. Achilles retouched it with the "new" grille some time ago. Now, all we need is a japanese translator :D

Originally posted by Kalins1
It appears that there really is no equivalent to the L model anymore. The "i" definitely seems to have more content than did the "L." That must be an upscale move.

I'm still pining for the Brighton :lol:

Originally posted by HB_Dad
The point is "7 seats"!!

I know!! But you could just add a 3rd-row-seat option to the Outback like some wagons have. I expected a 3rd row plus cargo space.

That drawing just looks like a boosted Outback with more seats added to the cargo area. Also, note the 2001 date :confused: and 3.6L which I assume is the engine size (:banana: if true)

Originally posted by Kalins1
It appears that there really is no equivalent to the L model anymore. The "i" definitely seems to have more content than did the "L." That must be an upscale move.

IMO that is a bad move for Subaru if that is true. Have you noticed the "L" to "2.5GT" ratio of Legacies on the road? I would estimate that there are probably 8 L models for every GT on the road. I don't see Subaru reaching their projected 250,000 annual vehicle sales without any low-end models. The typical mainstream buyer (excluding enthusiasts) is looking for value before performance. Perhaps Subaru is trying to jump to the upmarket segment too fast.

I think the reason GTs are rare now is they did not offer extra power so there was not that much point. Now there is.

Originally posted by BigElm

>Fully loaded GT sedan will be in the $28-$29k range.

>Base (Limited) Legacy models will be in $25-$26k range.


For the base - too much money - too little power. For the turbo, that's just more than I want to pay. If these numbers are right, I might as well stop waiting for the either the turbo or the base legacy.

Originally posted by dsj
For the base - too much money - too little power. For the turbo, that's just more than I want to pay. If these numbers are right, I might as well stop waiting for the either the turbo or the base legacy.

Same here. Still being in college, I already know I probably can't afford a turbo Legacy. Based on these figures, I probably won't be able to afford a decently equipped naturally aspirated Legacy either. :(

For $26k with that engine, the "i" models should have more standard features than the current 2.5GT LIMITED. If they aren't putting that money into the drivetrain, I would expect interior quality to be on par with BMW and Audi.

All i really want in my Legacy is a moonroof, heated CLOTH seats, and a 5-speed manual. I don't need leather, navigation, power seats, etc.

Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
I think the reason GTs are rare now is they did not offer extra power so there was not that much point. Now there is.

I disagree, the reason there are so many more L or LSE versions of the legacy on the road than GT is the price and the majority of the buyers are not concerned with performance that much, they are more concerned with value.

They may say they want performance but ask most non-enthusiest what they consider performance and you would be surprised at what they say. It doesn't take too much "performance" to make the average person happy. By far the majority of Altimas, Accords and Camrys sold are 4-bangers - that should say something.

Originally posted by BJamerican
Same here. Still being in college, I already know I probably can't afford a turbo Legacy. Based on these figures, I probably won't be able to afford a decently equipped naturally aspirated Legacy either. :(

For $26k with that engine, the "i" models should have more standard features than the current 2.5GT LIMITED. If they aren't putting that money into the drivetrain, I would expect interior quality to be on par with BMW and Audi.

All i really want in my Legacy is a moonroof, heated CLOTH seats, and a 5-speed manual. I don't need leather, navigation, power seats, etc.

Sounds like you want a wrx with the premium package not a legacy.

I live in a small college town in Southeast Ohio. I would make an educated guess that nearly a quarter of the autos on the road here are Subarus.

It would appear that the "L SE" models were Subaru's best move. Everyone here replaced their "L" models when the "SE"s were introduced.

So we know that the loaded Turbo is going to be in the $28-29K arena.

And we know that the fully loaded base model is going to be $25-26K.

That begs the question, how much for the bare bones models. Or better yet, are there even going to be bare bones models? If Subaru is indeed trying to move up in terms of luxury, they may pull an Acura with the new Legacy and make the transmission and navigation the only options available.

Hopefully I am wrong, because that might be the stupidest thing Subaru can do right now. The performance is there, but in terms of cache and interior finish, they are still a generation behind Toyota and Honda, which offers these levels at much lower prices.

Yes, there will be a base model: the 2.5i. The 2.5i Limited adds power seat with heat, leather-trimmed upholstery, and dual-zone climate system. Figure at least 2k for that. "loaded" probably means another 2k worth of stuff (eg AT, sunroof, stereo upgrade, security system, etc). So that would put the base 2.5i around 21k.

Remember that the interior is now much better than before, likely as good as Accord/Camry. Plus you get AWD and excellent handling. 21 k seems like a bargain for what you get. It will not compete with the base Accord and Camry, but its also a better car than those.

I guess looks are subjective, and since I have not felt the new Legacy's interior materials yet I will reserve judgement. But, upon visual inspection it looks as though the Honda is still far ahead of the Legacy. Granted the new Legacy interior is extremely attractive and is a huge leap forwards, but I still dont think that it is in the same league as Honda. Nissan definately, as well as Mazda, but not Honda. And I know the Legacy has power on its side, and AWD, but the market they are trying to reach, how an interior looks and feels is extremely important, almost moreso than the AWD, but not more than power, nothing is higher than power.

:disco:

Honda? What hondas are you looking at. the new legacy looks beyond honda to me, more along vw lines.
And 25k would be a perfect base price, you guys are wanting to much car for too little money, this is still cheaper than any cars in the same league.

Ok, back to reality land.

The base Accord DX, with a 160hp/161tq is $15,900 with a manual and $16,700 with the auto. For the average car buyer, a base model Legacy, even with AWD is going to be a TOUGH sell for $4000 more. The "loaded" Accord EX with dual zone climate control, leather, etc. is $24,300. This is going to be the main competitor to the Limited version.

Now the Accord EX V6, with 240hp and the full satellite navigation system is $28,400. So it makes perfect sense for the Legacy GT to be priced in this segment. Folks that have had accords are probably not going to switch, but to someone looking at the options, this is a valid competitor. Other competitors in this group include the Maxima with 265hp, a six speed, and loaded for around $30k. You can go hog wild with it and push it up into $34k territory with that Elite package. Of course, the new Maxima is one of the uglier cars on the road. I think the AWD will well be worth the hit in horsepower to the average buyer..IF the average buyer even knows who subaru is.

Bottom line, these prices seem totally reasonable, given the Legacy's ambitions at each trim level. If they were trying to make it upscale, they would base it out around 32K and start from there. This is a competitor for the mid-size Big Three and some of the Big Three performance sedans (TL, G35, Maxima) in GT trim.

Originally posted by loudsubbie
Honda? What hondas are you looking at. the new legacy looks beyond honda to me, more along vw lines.
And 25k would be a perfect base price, you guys are wanting to much car for too little money, this is still cheaper than any cars in the same league.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/honda/accord/100346473/prices.html?tid=edmunds.n.mipmake.pricetable.num12 .1.honda*

or

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/honda/accord/100336789/prices.html?tid=edmunds.n.mipmake.pricetable.num29 .1.honda*

Less than 29k msrp WITH navigation. The legacy interior may be better, but it's not as good as the accord. 30 mpg on 87 octane. Honda reliability. Really, so what are we trading for two extra wheels driven? You can't get new customers this way. A few thousand extra doesn't mean that much when you want to keep a car for 10 years or more, as you can with honda's, and supposedly subaru's. If the Subaru options list doesn't satisfy me, I'm going elsewhere, period. I'm not going to unsatisfied with a car for a decade. If a few thousand breaks the bank for you, you shouldn't even be shopping in this price range - or get no options. I keep hearing this is the market they are looking for. Sensible "thinking" people. No rash buying decision, and no dumping a car after a few years.

There is a market for those who would like an audi, but don't like the german prices or the german "reliability". THAT'S what the huge anticipation last year was about, and why january was a hard let-down. If subaru doesn't keep up, they will get buried if honda/acura ever decide the bring AWD to the USDM. They are already losing their uniqueness with so many cars anouncing AWD. If this car goes on sale with only the equipment/look that was shown this year, I don't think they can hope to make any gains in marketshare, only hold on.

I think the main confusion about this car, and Subaru really hasnt helped us with is what is this car's competition? I know I know people talk about it being to tackle Audi's and BMW's and the like, but the Legacy was usually known as a competitor for the Accord/Camry class of vehicle.

In order for Subaru to make a serious splash with this car they need the car to be competent enough to compete with the Audi's and BMW's yet priced to sell- read priced to sell at Accord and Camry.

Subaru needs to redefine the league here, think Lexus LS400, Acura NSX type wow where the whole world needs to scramble because of this bomb that was just dropped. It could very well be wishful thinking, and maybe I am trying to get too much car for too little, but I thought they said the same thing about the LS400 when it first came out. So have pity on the fool that hopes history will repeat itself. :cool:

Originally posted by legav05
Less than 29k msrp WITH navigation. The legacy interior may be better, but it's not as good as the accord. 30 mpg on 87 octane. Honda reliability. Really, so what are we trading for two extra wheels driven?
:huh:
Well, when the accord can't get up my road in the winter without me having to put chains on it... lets not downplay the value of those two 'extra' driven wheels.

You can't expect Subaru to shave down their profit margins to compete with Honda (who makes many times more cars each year than Subaru does) when they're sporting a superior drivetrain layout that inherently costs more. Like always, Subaru buyers will buy Subarus because they know the extra money is worth it.

The legacy will win magazine tests over the accord camry and maxima because it out-handles and out runs them while still being comfy.. that will bring in new buyers. Heck, even with the 165hp EJ25, most journalists heaped huge praise on the legacy for the mixture of comfort and handling.. the only sore point was the weight/power ratio... now that's fixed.

Amen..

Originally posted by Beaverboy
:huh:
Well, when the accord can't get up my road in the winter without me having to put chains on it... lets not downplay the value of those two 'extra' driven wheels.

You can't expect Subaru to shave down their profit margins to compete with Honda (who makes many times more cars each year than Subaru does) when they're sporting a superior drivetrain layout that inherently costs more. Like always, Subaru buyers will buy Subarus because they know the extra money is worth it.

The legacy will win magazine tests over the accord camry and maxima because it out-handles and out runs them while still being comfy.. that will bring in new buyers. Heck, even with the 165hp EJ25, most journalists heaped huge praise on the legacy for the mixture of comfort and handling.. the only sore point was the weight/power ratio... now that's fixed.

But so far they have been selling for less. What extra money? People here want the legacy for 25k. That's the market segment it's been in previous years. Has this really helped subraru?

Now you're debating if AWD is better or not. That's not the issue. The issue is how much the american buyer is willing to compromise just to get AWD. If you look at the market share for AWD vs FWD, you have your answer. What if they didn't have to compromise? There is a reason accords outsell legacy's. The subaru/awd nut will buy the legacy, yes. The rest of us need to make sound decisions, and awd is just another variable. Not an end-all be-all.

Subaru is not competing with Honda and Toyota, at least not with base models. They are a niche-market company. Originally the niche was good cars for snowy climates; now it is performance cars as well. Also, look at sales of the Outback vs the "regular" Legacy. Outback sells better even at a higher price because it is a niche vehicle. Same deal with the WRX, which sells more than other Imprezas. I expect the new Outback and GT to sell well, but not the base Legacy. Subaru will be happy with that because they make more money on the higher-end cars.

Subaru might not be competing with the Honda, Nissan and Mazda, but in the real world that is their competition. The mayority of the people that are going to buy a BMW, Audi or Infiniti won't even look at the Legacy. So if Subaru prices it above those cars the Legacy is going to be tough to sell.

William

Well since they are a niche market company with loyal fans who praise the Subaru for their AWD, that begs the question- why bother improving the Legacy so much in the first place? If they are niche and appeal to a core group of buyers, then why make the huge leaps in performance and quality. The answer is very simple...

They want converts!!

Subaru wants Honda and Toyota owners to consider this car. That is why they are offering the performance, and the qualities- as loyal as the Subaru core is, plain and simple, they want more! But in order to get more, you also have to tickle the practical bone of these other Japanese car buyers, and that is value. Offering a car that has everything their Accord has and AWD with all due respect holds very little value in the Accord and Camry buyers mind. AWD is an attribute Subaru core fans hold dear. What Subaru needs to do is convert them to the Legacy on grounds of its performance and quality, and then show them the beauty of AWD. Then you will have a new Subaru core member.

So this quantum leap legacy is going to have to do this. It may mean trimming the profit margins, but it also means convincing loyal Honda, Toyota, Mazda and other Japanese sedan buyers that this is an equal alternative to their sedans, not to say "Oh dont worry the extra $3k is worth it for AWD" You know that, they dont- yet.

I somewhat agree, and I think the GT will do that. That is the car that will bring in converts, not the base model. There is no way Subaru can compete with the 17k base Accord or Camry sedan. They tried that with the early FWD Legacys and got killed.

Remember too that most Legacies sold are wagons, which Accord and Camry no longer have. That is more the niche for the base model. The only competition there is the Passat, which is pricey and not as reliable.

Sorry, I was focusing more on the GT model.

As for the base Legacy, couldnt agree with you more, there is no way Subaru can compare with the base Accords and Camry's.

I was thinking more in the way of the Legacy Turbo. The base, base, BASE v-6 Accord has an MSRP of ~$23K. There is no way the Legacy Turbo can compete with that. The high end Accord starts at $26K and tops out at $28K. I am not asking for a $23K Legacy GT. I think a reasonable request for a bare bones GT MSRP is ~$26K maybe $25.5K if they really want to shock. But also, they cant get carried away with their options. A comprably equipped GT and Accord V-6 cannot be $31K and $28K respectively, because to John Q. Carbuyer a Honda screams quality, resale, and reliability. Now it could be a decision made out of ignorance, but Honda doesnt mind that decision, Subaru does. The Legacy is Subaru's bread and butter, they need this car to be big, and you cant do that sticking with your core audience, ya gotta see what the other guy is offering, give the buyer the same, at a cheaper price, or at the same price with another little goodie (AWD).

I think Subaru has learned the lesson well that they absolutely cannot compete based solely on price. They also know they don't have enough brand value to blithely move upmarket. So what is a small company to do? They have to set themselves apart, because their cars are going to cost more than their mid-market counterparts (eg CamCord), both because of drivetrain costs and economies of scale. The answer to this conundrum is value. They are looking to create a "premium" image, but they have specifically stated that they are not (yet) trying to move "upmarket". They recognize that they are a niche player, but they want to expand the niche a bit. So the new Legacy will (have to) offer additional value for the car buying dollar compared to its competitors. A base Legacy i has more standard features than the Camry or Accord. The i Limited is easily comparable to an Accord LX. The base GT should trounce the offerings of Honda and Toyota in head to head competition. The GT Limited will offer a combination of performance and amenities that will be difficult to match. All this while maintaining prices close to their current levels. I'm thinking FHI is reducing profit margins in the near term in order to build market share. It's classic Japanese business tactics. Sell now for little profit, and when you build market share you can increase your margin as you increase production.

Originally posted by kage
I'm thinking FHI is reducing profit margins in the near term in order to build market share. It's classic Japanese business tactics. Sell now for little profit, and when you build market share you can increase your margin as you increase production.

My thoughts exactly. It wouldn't make sense for Subaru to increase their prices dramatically (yet). If the want to move "upmarket", they need to take the hit in profit in order to gain market share first. Once they have established a decent market share and REPUTATION, then they can increase their prices.

Subaru does not have a performance/luxury image yet, since through most of the 1990s the most powerful Legacy you could buy only had 135-155 horsepower. Ask 100 people what they think about Subaru, and probably 80 of them will say "Built cheap and meant to stay that way". Many people who have never driven a Subaru compare them with Hyundais and other economy cars. Subaru needs to undo their "Japanese econobox" image before they start charging upmarket prices for their cars. Who wants to pay $29K for a car that has a general reputation for being bland and cheap? 95% of the BMW and Audi crowd would never even consider the Subaru badge, regardless of its performance, and Subaru need to change that stereotype.

Like Subaru's previous marketing campaign, "When you get it, you get it." Although Subaru has a reputation for building bland station wagons, you don't know how great Subarus are until you drive one. It's the same reason most import drivers refuse to buy a GM car. They have a terrible reputation for having reliability problems in the past. Now, their products have significantly improved, yet they are having trouble gaining market share from the Japanese automakers.

Originally posted by kage
They are looking to create a "premium" image, but they have specifically stated that they are not (yet) trying to move "upmarket".Where and when was this "specific" statement actually made?

Competing for buyers isn't quite the same thing as competing against a specific kind of car a given buyer has bought in the past.

Honda and Toyota have their strengths. Subaru has it's strengths. Subaru is not big enough to stray from their strengths to go head to head with bigger companies using a different forumla.

If you don't think Subaru's strengths (AWD, safety, performance, utility, reliability) line up with your top priorities as a buyer, then you are not the kind of buyer Subaru is targetting. Better to focus on pleasing the buyers you can please than the buyers you'll never get. Your best bet is to improve the car you've got in ways you can (eg. what they've done with the legacy) and then try to convince buyers that your strengths have value and should be their priorities through marketing.

And if Subaru doesn't have mass market appeal, so be it. If they have 2% appeal, they'll double their sales ;).

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
Where and when was this "specific" statement actually made?
Perhaps "specific" was a bit strong. In the FHI 2003 annual report, Kyoji Takanaka talks about their mid-term plan (FDR-1) and how they are trying to position themselves to be "a global player with a premium brand" in ten years time. The new emphasis on design, the addition of performance models to the North American line, and most especially the introduction of the new Legacy are all steps in that direction. He speaks about building brand equity and cutting costs in the long term, but in the near term FHI understands that their brand isn't strong enough to compete in the premium arena. The graph on page 9 of the report quite plainly shows the Legacy introduction as the beginning stage of their long term plan to move upmarket. But in the near term, they have to provide better value in order to compete.

Originally posted by William WRX
Subaru might not be competing with the Honda, Nissan and Mazda, but in the real world that is their competition. The mayority of the people that are going to buy a BMW, Audi or Infiniti won't even look at the Legacy. So if Subaru prices it above those cars the Legacy is going to be tough to sell.

William

That's not entirely true. I have been an Audi driver for a long time (2000 S4 & 2001 allroad). Lately, it seems Audi has abandoned the "value conscious" and is pursuing..... actually I'm not sure what the hell they are thinking. :huh: It's not that I can't afford the new models, I'm just not into "overpriced" cars. ;)

The new Legacy definitely has my attention. Not only is it a great car, it's one hell of a deal as well. I just pray that the aftermarket support is there. Can you say ---400hp? :D

Originally posted by Ghostrider600
[B]Hmm, that may be true, as Jon's post demonstrates, but also in that post it shows that though the SIA plant may be better than Japan, Subaru in general is pretty terrible; it ranks 3rd-to-last out of the manufacturers in the test.



I wouldn't go so far as to say they are terrible. If you reduce the number to average per car, the best manuf. (Toyota) shows about 1.1 defects per new car. Subaru has 1.5 defects per new car. There are lots of other ways to cut those numbers. For every 10 cars, on average there will be 11 defects found across toyota whereas 15 will be found across subarus.

My point is that the delta isn't that large. It would be a different story if a manuf. was having less than 0.5 defects per car. IMO, a trip to the dealer to fix 1 problem is just as much a PIA as a trip to fix 1.5 or 2 problems.

But what kind of issues are these?
So many issues are created by stupid people breaking things because they don't read the manual. Other issues are for terribly small things. IMO, the long term report is really the only way to judge the quality of a car.

Of course, lexus acura honda and toyota do well there as well. But then again, so does subaru ;).