This is way OT, but:
Did anybody catch Dateline last night? The one with the kids who go to those raves and wasted on "designer" drugs (ecstasy, etc.). What the hell's up with that? Why do these kids feel the need to "be happy"? What do they have to be depressed about? They don't have jobs, they don't have any responsibilities. Man, wait until they have a real job, maybe a house payment, and a car payment, and other bills. They have it made right now and they're screwing themselves up!! When I'm feeling a little down in the dumps, I jump in my RS and search the town for some new twisties to lay some rubber down on. Now that's a rush no drug could ever provide!! Am I the only one that thinks this way??

You should try surfing some time. There is nothing like flying down a 10ft wave and then it chases you.

Unless you've "been there, done that", it's difficult for you to understand where these kids are coming from. Believe me, this stuff has been going on for a LONG time.

Drug experimentation doesn't equal a life of destitution and lack of responsibility. It's the way things are in this world, and different people take different paths...

No, you aren't the only one who thinks this way, which is one of the reasons these kids feel so misunderstood. They may not be dying of Aids in Central Africa with distended stomachs, but that doesn't mean their feelings of depression or helplessness are invalid. It's all a matter of perspective and everything is *relative*.

Greg.

boxerman: the legality of it doesn't matter to me...its the stupidity those kids who think they need to smoke or drink or huff or stick needles in their arms in order to have friends. In my eyes it is an issue of self respect. On that same note, why alter your mind chemically for a different form of consciousness? Whats wrong with the one we were born with? And why not do it without artificial means?
Cacophony: yes and no...if you needed a 22B to be happy, that would be a shame. But the truth is, drugs are dangerous (please try to tell me that cigarettes don't kill people!) A 22B isn't, unless the driver is, well, on drugs http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif Of course, I wouln't pity you when you got caught with an illegal 22B!

Yes, everyone is allowed to do what they want to their own bodies. Just please leave me out of it!

Very true colin, drugs are a very touchy subject. I personally don't do drugs of any kind, I don't smoke, and I don't drink (yes, I'm 21), I have personally seen too many people destroy their lives for a fake "hi". I know of a guy who's in prison now for Statutory Rape. He was hi, and he got a girl hi, and her pregnant. She was 14, he was 26. It's a medical fact that all drugs do, be it "E" (I to go to raves when I can, but I stay clean), Special K, "G", or whatever, is trick your body into thinking the natural "drug" dopemine (sp?) is released. Only the drugs imitate it with a much higher concentration, so in short they make you feel REALLY good. Like all things your body get's used to this and it takes more and more to feel pleasure, hence people taking drugs more and more frequently (trying to reach that first "Hi"). The conequences of this of course are the risks of ODing, but the biggest loss is the fact that the simple pleasures in life, be it driving, eating, sex, anything, fade away into memories. I don't care how good a drug makes me feel, I'd rather take pleasure in the natural his in life, like driving my new RS around town, listening to music, or spending time with my girlfriend. No study on how "harmless" the drugs are will make me change my stance.

[Edit] But once again, I don't care what people do to their bodies, it's their life, not mine.

Joel

[This message has been edited by wolve80 (edited May 03, 2000).]

There are various forms of escapeism. Many people are movie and TV addicts. Some people use sports fanaticism as a means of escape.

At least the drug users are experiencing things themselves instead of getting vicarious thrills from watching someone elso do something. (this is a pet peave) Its like you ask a couple of friends to go out and play ball and they so no, there's a game on.
ARRRRRRRRRRGH! Get a life, stop borrowing someone elses.

I'll tell you one thing. Mundane, non mentally challenging tasks such as dishes, vacuuming and raking leaves are much less boring with agood buzz on.

If we all spent our time autoxing or at six-flags or sky diving then there would be no need for mind altering substances. Sometimes life is dull and some of us are not satisfied with just accepting it. We want full adrenaline and dopamine rush, all the time.

Maybe when I'm 40 I will be happy to sit back relax and read a book.

I'm not going to begrudge a responsible adult a little journey into the mind, its no worse than watching Regis asking those dunba$$ questions. Just stay off the roads!

Timothy (not Leary)

(WOOHOO, I made Specialist!!!)
See, that's what makes the Drug conv such fun, lol. There are so many ways to look at things. On one side you got killing brain cells, wasting life, and fake highs, on the other side, you got experimenting, having fun, or escaping.
I personally have a blast playing sports, driving, playing games on my computer (Half-Life, hehehe) or just hanging out with friends. The old saying "whatever floats your boat" comes into play perfectly tho.

I must disagree with you when you talk "down" about "borrowing someone else's life" when watching a game. When playing a game of football or basket ball, don't you get a kick when you get an assist, or throw a touchdown pass? In those cases you're feeling joy for something someone ELSE does. You still cheer tho right? It's the same when watching a game, if the team you like scores, then you feel good about it, but that team isn't feeling the joy FOR you, you're feeling it for yourself.

All I gotta say is do what you wish, but be safe doing it, and stay off the roads while "buzzed".

Joel

[This message has been edited by wolve80 (edited May 03, 2000).]

Lots of things in life are dangerous; that does not mean that they should be made illegal. Especially if the danger is only to the user. That's the angle that the antidrug ads take, that drugs are potentially deadly to the user. After all, if they angle they stressed was danger to others, then our legal intoxicant alcohol comes out looking worst of all. Remember, alcohol was the *original* "date-rape drug." Say, wasn't date rape happening long before we had all these designer date rape drugs anyhow?

And wolve80, you are very very wrong on the pharmocological actions of different drugs. Some do affect the dopamine system of the brain by blocking dopamine reuptake or causing the body to release more dopamine (i.e. cocaine) Ecstacy, for example, has nothing to do with dopamine. Ecstacy causes the body to release serotonin, which is the "feel good" chemical of the brain. The antidepressant "medications" that are so rampantly prescribed (wonder where kids learn to take drugs?) act on the serotonin system as well, blocking it's reuptake into the body thereby making the prozac taker "happie" for longer periods.
It seems odd that so many people accuse recreational drug users (not abusers) of being addicts, and chemically dependant degenerates.. all the while, people who "need" antidepressants such as prozac to be happy are accepted without question.

Everything comes down to personal choice... If you don't like it, cool, don't do it. No one is pressuring you. So don't pressure me.

Joel,
As I said this is a pet peave. I just have the lamest friends. The only thing they can think of doing is watching TV, going to a movie, going out for drinks or going out for dinner. At least they don't eat vicariously. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif

I can not get these dudes off the couch for anything. All I get is; my back hurts, I'm tired, I've got a long day tomorrow. You'd think they would explode if they broke a sweat.

When I was a kid we used to watch Bruce Lee Movies and then go outside and beat each other with broom handles, but once you reach thirty it seems no one wants to get hurt.

There is no harm in being a sports fan and associating with a certain team(Met fan since I was 3, Giants since 5) but when you start scheduling you life around someone elses events then maybe its a problem.

I would rather play wiffle ball out back with 2 other friends than watch a non critical regular season game and I still have the broom handles. Heh Heh!

Tim
PS anybody want to come over, we can build a ramp in the yard and jump our bicycles over garbage cans!

Personally, I've never been a drug type of guy... Driving always was my high. You have to understand, though, that these kids that think they have ot get away from things really DO. The teen years are the hardest in your life where you develop the most and have the most interaction with people, of course they are going to have more stresses then you think they will. Try being a teen now and you'll understand. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif (before you ask, no I'm 22)

PS anybody want to come over, we can build a ramp in the yard and jump our bicycles over garbage cans!

LOL! I think I still have a few 16" bikes at my dad's place. I remember fresh out of high school selling my Haro One was pretty tough. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/wink.gif

Colin,
I traded my Mongoose for an electric guitar. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/wink.gif
Heh! That sounds like a country song.
Tim

oops, came out wrong, I ment if someone else on your team scores. You know what I ment, I hope http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/tongue.gif

again, whatever floats yr boat.

thx for correcting me, I'm not a doctor, just go by what I hear.

LOL boxerman, I had some friends like that. When we were kids we'd go and try to kill each other playing rugby (or our iteration of it) in the parking lot. I to once got introuble in school for doing a Bruce Lee impression on some kid. Man, those were the days, now my lame friends sit at home watching wrestling (no offence). I used to watch wrestling, then I'd throw my brother in a suplex.

Joel

-Dan00RS

Youre not the only one to take the question of teenagers and drugs and ask "Why?" Im nineteen, and I dont understand it completely. I do know that there is more to it for some people than being depressed. I have a friend who has to be one of the smartest people I have ever met. He's an engineering student at Berkeley and he drinks day in day out. Why? I dont know, maybe he's bored. School is too simple for him. He has nothing to be depressed about, but he doesnt have anything to be excited about either....So he drinks. I dont understand why.... but I accept it. Needless to say, I have more respect for him when he's sober.

As far as your insinuation that kids/teenagers have nothing to be depressed about.... I resent that and am slightly offended. While you may be right about some of them not having a job/responsibilities.... many of them do. Aside from that, youre assuming that theyre coming from an ideal family/home. Many do not. I say this with some conviction because people have assumed this about me...and were wrong to do so. That act in itself can lead one to feel as though no one understands who they are or what they are coming from. This further leads to a state of isolation where they do not relate with the normal kids. As they are now ostracized from the regular groups, they seek refuge.... with none other than their fellow outcasts (sorry if i use this term lightly). Now not all these groups will be in on the drug scene.... but a good number of them will.... and you can bet that the new members of such groups will jump at the chance to join them smoking or whatever else they do. Why? becuase if they dont they will never be truly accepted as a member of the "circle." They would instead be a spectator... and thats not what theyre looking for... theyre looking to fit in. Peer pressure then becomes something altogether different... there is no dread involved... it is simply appealing.

Now is it wrong for them to turn to drugs to shelter them from the cruel reality awaiting them when they return home? Maybe.. I'm not sure. I do know that I dont agree with what they do... and refuse to act as them. But everyone is different and as such everyone finds solace through different mediums.

I'm one of the lucky ones. Ive been through hard times as a teenager, much harder times than any of my friends have been through, though, I’m sure, much less difficult than what some others experience. Looking back, I now know I was suicidal at on point, not that I ever intended to kill myself, but I constantly wondered what it would be like to just end my life. That isn’t normal. If you think it is… you need to talk to someone. But instead of taking refuge in drugs…. I read book after book after book. And I ran--anywhere from four miles a day to fourteen miles a day. I was lucky, because these are the things that appealed to me then, and still do. And instead of coming away from my depression weak and in a mindless stupor, I came out stronger and smarter. I wish everyone would follow my path. No ones the same though and it could have been different… I could have taken up drugs like the rest of my friends. But, like Ive said before, I don’t agree with drugs. If drugs are what it takes to shelter someone from the storm, however, I wont deny them that refuge. Just know that there is more to a person then what you see on the surface… much more. Empathize when and where you can.

Sorry for going on so long… although I have much more id like to say…. Ill stop here.

mark

After reading the first post of this thead, I kind of have to smile to myself at the irony. Here you are stating how dangerous illicit drug use amongst teenagers is, and then you state that you prefer to go "driving", which, in the US at least (rebuttle fot the UK to follow), actually has a much higher mortality rate than "raving". I personally perscribe to the Darwinian belief of "survival of the fittest". I therefore have no more problem with people that do drugs (as long as they don't injur/kill anyone else in the process)that with people who ride motorcycles without helmets, drive without seatbelts, or dive headfirst into shallow swimming pools.

Nonetheless, as a doctor I feel it's my duty to inform those that would partake that ecstacy is not a benign drug. Here's a excerpt from a review article from the journal "Pediatrics", Vol. 100, No. 4, 10/97 (If you want the complete article feel free to email me)

"The drug 3,4 methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA), also known as "ecstasy," is a "designer" drug that is becoming popular with American adolescents at dance halls known as "raves" and on college campuses. An analogue of amphetamine, MDMA shares properties with both amphetamine and hallucinogenic drugs. Now available in many US cities, MDMA has an undeserved reputation for safety and a long duration of action. The drug appeals to young people, who believe that it enhances empathy and closeness to others. Common short-term adverse effects of MDMA include sweating, tachycardia, fatigue, and muscle spasms, including jaw-clenching. Serious adverse effects from MDMA include serious or fatal heat injury, fluid and electrolyte depletion, and central nervous system, cardiac, muscular, renal, and hepatic dysfunction. MDMA has been implicated in at least 53 deaths in the United Kingdom and at least five more deaths in the United States, mainly attributable to profound disturbances in thermoregulation (heatstroke). MDMA is a selective serotonergic neurotoxin. "Herbal ecstasy" containing ephedrine ( Herba ephedrae) and other herbs, can be purchased by mail. Several toxicology screening tests for the amphetamine class of drugs of abuse can detect MDMA, but at about 50% reduced sensitivity. Treatment of acute toxic reactions includes rapid cooling and rehydration, monitoring electrolytes, and organ dysfunction. Because current national and state surveys show a significant increase in use of this drug, physicians in primary care, emergency medicine, critical care medicine, and addiction medicine can be expected to manage an occasional patient with acute MDMA toxicity..."

and this from a more recent article in "Lancet" (10/9/99;354(9186):1265-6)

"We provide a 25-fold range for the ecstacy-related death rate per 10,000 15-24-year-old users in the UK: from 0.2 to 5.3, compared with the death rate of 1.0 from road traffic accidents in the same age-group. The heroin-related death rate in 15-24-year-old heroin users was much higher, but also imprecisely estimated: from 9.1 to 81.5 deaths per 10,000 15-24-year-old users. Data deficiencies which inhibit the calculation of drug-specific rates in this population should be remedied..."

And from what I've seen the situation is getting worse here in the states as well. In fact, just a month ago we had 4 college students in the ER who had mistakely overdosed on another "designer" drug called GHB (gamma-hydroxy-butarate), a very potent agonist of gaba receptors in the brain. In small amounts it has depressive effects similar to alcohol. But because illegal drugs tend to come in non-standardized dosing, these 4 got a batch that was particularly strong. We were able to save two of them, but the other two died.

Simply a waste... and I can't even invoke Darwinian theory because one of two that lived had apparently spiked the drinks of the other three... http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/frown.gif

Dan00RS, I honestly hope that you don't take everything that you see on TV as the truth. If you do, then I truly feel sorry for you. If you honestly believe all that DARE crap, and all the misinformation and propaganda that we as americans are force fed, then I pity you. All you get from the media is biased information that is not based on fact or science, but merely someone elses agenda.
I've researched exhaustively every substance that I put into my body.. and I continue to do so.
I haven't screwed myself up at all. I have a job. I pay my bills. Hell, I'm even married! I also go to raves now and then, and I've had my fair share of substances.. (Ecstacy a designer drug? Actually, it was first made in 1918 by Merck and was sold as a diet aid.)
What most people do not understand and do not want to hear, is that the two most dangerous drugs around are legal. Alcohol and tobacco. Want proof? Email me and I'll send you URL's to studies showing that..

As with anything, the key is Use, not abUse.

Peace! http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif

I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion. Here's mine: people who need drugs of any kind, illegal or otherwise, to be happy or feel like they belong deserve our pity.

What if it is not to feel happy or they belong. What if it is just to feel differrent form the normal state of consciousness. Do you have the same opinion about alcohol or does the fact that narcotics are illegal influence your opinion?

I personally see no difference between someone getting loaded (booze) or stoned (the kind). I do worry about not fully developed 16 year olds getting involved with stuff that is too powerful for them to control. It is just a matter of maturity and some 30 year olds are not mature. That said this a parental problem and not a governmental one.

Smoke 'em if you got 'em
Tim

Expand your thought, bluemousie, and I'll agree with you. People who feel that they *need* any certain item to be happy (barring necessities) deserve pity.
If I had a 22b in this country (since it's illegal) but it brought me happiness, would everyone here think I'm an ass for driving it around? Or would everyone *understand*

two opinions:

1. dateline is sensationalist trash. that's what the consumer is buying though, and I fully believe in letting the market steer itself.

2. drugs are a personal choice, you cannot stop someone from making that choice. experimenting is probably part of most kids' maturing process and as long as they live one way or another they'll learn something. hopefully they will learn that substance use (or abuse, whatever) isn't a particularly good way to go through life. I personally don't give a rip what one person does as long as it doesn't affect me.

Man, what a response!! I'm glad to see such diverse opinions! I never imagined that I would see so many facts and figures and personal experiences.

In my defense, however, I too agree that Dateline is "fluff" or "shock" journalism. I didn't mean to insinuate that it wasn't. I take what they report with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I still contend that these drugs are extremely dangerous. Yeah, yeah, I've read the statistics, too. "Only this many deaths per thousand." Maybe these stats should say "senseless deaths." Hey I'll be the first to admit that I'm no expert on the subject, and I certainly don't have my own "been there, done that" stories. I have known people in high school and college and whom I have worked with who do have these stories. Many of them have cleaned up their act, some have not. I certainly do not judge them soley because of this. That would be ludicrous. They are all very nice people, I just despise their habit. Fortunately, none of these people have died. But, there's always the chance of an overdose, right??

I apologize to all the young folks out there (young?? hell, I'm only 25!!) when I said that they don't have ANY responsibilities. Thinking a little more about it, I had a job when I was 15 and have had one ever since. So I guess I had SOME responsibilities. And the statement that they don't have anything to be depressed about was perhaps a little overboard. Yes, it's true, I can from a fairly stable family (mom, dad, 4 brothers), so I didn't have anything to be all crazy about. But I know many people whose families put the "funk" in dysfunctional! So while I can't totally relate with this, I do know where you are coming from. I've seen it first hand. This doesn't mean that doing drugs is the way to solve your problems. Yeah, I can agree that some just want to experience the rush. See what it feels like. I don't agree that this is a good way about getting a rush. There are other things out there for this.

But OK I will agree with most of the posts, "to each, his own." Just be careful out there, OK? Don't do this **** and go driving, you might mess up your nice scooby!

Boring....

Well, this is after all a Subaru BBS...

The only "drug" that counts http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/biggrin.gif

A 22b on full song http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif

Richard

Hey! http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/wink.gif My family puts the FUN in Dysfunctional. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/wink.gif (haha...i make myself laugh so hard, i laughed so hard...D'OH...i said the loud part quiet and the quiet part loud...ohh well, and if you want mind altering...drop some acid...or shroom. (not that i would know, i swear, never touched anything illegal ever! And i plan on stayin; that way..but from talkin' to the THC (no...not tetro hyron carbonal (or whatever the main thingie in marijana is... ) It stands for the hacky club (you know...them hacky sack thingies) Well, actually about 90% of the people in the "club" are die hard stoners and age'n hippies...that's another story all together, but some of them have described some pretty twisted trips..and suppodedly the trails from shroomin' are wild. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/eek.gif DOn't car to know, my RS is all i need for a natural hi. http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/biggrin.gif

Hello,

First, please, nobody take offense. I'm just opinionated. Now, Sammy, your post made me laugh. The first article you quoted is SO typical of sensationalist journalism - which is often found in respected sources, though less frequently than in generic sources. But the problem is people who don't know what they're talking about, forgetting to take a step back and look at the forest.

What am I talking about? I'll start from the top of that Pediatrics article. "The drug appeals to young people, who believe that it enhances empathy and closeness to others." Believe? It does. Regardless of whether there is neurochemical response that enhances empathy or not, people "rolling" or "knowing" (terms describing feeling the effects of ecstacy, or E, or X, which used to be primarily MDA in the US, but is now MDMA, a mix of MDA and MDMA, or some harmful or inert substitute (fake E)) are 'touchy-feely', harbor very little ill-will towards anyone, and are generally very friendly. There is a neurological explanation for that effect. Like you explained, X alters seretonin levels, which is exactly what prozac does. One causes the release of extra seratonin and the other blocks the re-uptake of seratonin. The end effect is that you have more seratonin in the brain. That directly causes you to feel happier. Sure, it's possible not to be happy, but basically, your brain is on a seratonin high and you feel like you would winning a track event in your scooby. (okay, poor analogy, but ask anyone on prozac what it means to them when they increase their seratonin levels).

The next thing is the whole description of the symptoms of an overdose and how to "aleviate" the symtoms. Where is X done most often when it becomes sensationalized? At raves. What are raves? Well, they're parties where you stick as many people as possible into a warehouse and play music with an incredible beat, usually a fast beat, and you get the people dancing. They often dance for 4 to 8 hours straight (8 hours usually indicates MDA, which is more energetic, for unknown reasons, than MDMA and affects seratonin levels at different receptors) at a level that is not possible to maintain normally. The dancers feel really good and sometimes are enjoying themselves so much that they neglect to drink enough fluids. Ask any runner if they could run for 4-8 hours straight without liquids! Of course not. All the "symtoms" described in those articles are the symptoms of overheating and dehydrating. Not from the drug but from the exercise and lack of water. Need proof? Find an outdoor rave in a large enough area that heat is less of a problem and you'll find a rave with no one passing out from heat (still might from dehydration).

Here's something I didn't see in those articles. Measured temperature at the middle of the dancefloor at recent rave attended by some friends of mine? 105 degrees F. Windows in this warehouse were open and fans were running.

All that crap about rapid cooling and electrolyte replacement? Sweat. When you sweat, you need to replace not only the water, but the electrolytes, too. That's why sport drinks became popular among athletes.

Anyway, doing drugs and driving - bad bad bad. Doing drugs in a contained environment for the purpose of having fun, so long as it doesn't develop into abuse, I see nothing wrong with it (and I used to be a prosecutor - the drug teams are where I learned most of what I know, though I learned a lot of the subjective information from raves and ravers http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif

As for G, (GHB), that's another story. I don't know off hand, but something like 90% of all G-related incidents occur because of mixing G with alcohol. The mixture is fatal. If you ever see someone collapse with their eyes rolled up on the dance floor, they're probably "G'd out" or "G-tarded". That's a very dangerous situation. The best thing to do in that case is see if the person can walk out of the place on their own feet. If not, they're in serious trouble and you or anyone else (someone should take responsibility) should call the paramedics - 911 will do. Without immediate attention, a G-tard can die. If the person fears getting in trouble, the raver recomendation is just to say that you put your alcoholic beverage down for a couple minutes, and when you got back to it and drank some, that's when you started feeling bad. Lying to the police or paramedics is better than dying (though telling the truth about quantity of each is still better for the medical diagnosis).

G by itself requires HUGE quantities to be lethal. The normal dose, regardless of potency, is a capful or two of the liquid. It's usually contained in normal water bottles, so the cap of the bottle is the measuring device. Dangerous levels would then require many more capfuls. In your emergency room story, Sammy, you describe one person "spiking" the drinks of the others. One capful is enough for a lethal combination.

For that reason, most of the dance clubs and all raves that I've been to that serve alcohol (very few _real_ raves unless the alcohol is in paper cups since they don't really get permits...) in areas known for G-usage have prominent signs that warn that the mixture of a single dose of G with a single dose of alcohol can be lethal.

Anyway, now I've rambled on forever. Most of the people that I know who partake in drugs, do so on a very infrequent basis and only to enhance the level of fun they're having. One person described it to me this way: "You can go to an autocross and enjoy yourself. That's like going to a club and having a good time. On the other hand, you can go to the track for a competative event and win your class against lots of people. That's partying on X."

No "escape from reality" or any other such crap. Just going to have a good time and not hurting anyone else. Heck, imagine if X came with instructions http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif Some clubs are already providing free water to anyone looking heat-exhausted on the side of the dance floor...

Joel the long winded

If only all teenagers were as knowledgeable and careful about drugs as you...

http://208.9.184.67/NonCGI/smile.gif *laugh* Yeah. Damn, I can't post a short response for ****! And hey! I'm not a teenager any more. Still a young'n, and probably will be a teen at heart for the next 20 or 30 years... But prosecuting drug cases can teach you a lot!

Joel