I recently purchased an early 90's legacy turbo engine from a friend I have a few questions about getting it swapped into my 93 L FWD. It's the Air to Water intercooled version and the turbo says RHB52 on it. It is an longblock with all the accessories but the wiring harness has been cut leaving a mass of wires exposed and useless. Now for the questions:

How hard will the wiring be? I've been told that a standalone ecu like a tec2/3 would be easiest, but I was hoping for something a little cheaper. Any suggestions?

Would I be able to run this engine with my stock FWD tranny until I am able to afford an AWD tranny?

I'm also guessing that it would be good idea to upgrade my fuel pump as well? Any suggestions on an adequate pump for this motor?

Anything that I might be forgetting or I might need to get this running?

Thanks for the input,

jason p.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=535963

1. Wiring will suck no matter what. I am thinking that I will pull the whole bulkhead harness and use a USDM turbo legacy harness, including rewiring the engine...
2. You can use your tranny until you do an AWD conversion. Subaru's are like Legos.
3 Walbro 255l fuel pump runs less than $100 and drops right in
4. Get me the other numbers off the plate on your turbo and I will tell you what car it came out of. And what color is your intercooler?

skyliner33v quote:

It's the Air to Water intercooled version and the turbo says RHB52 on it.

This is a relatively cheap and fun conversion if you like to do it yourself. This is the same project I completed two years ago and the car is very competative with the high dollar big boys. This weekend it ran a 1:36 at Streets of Willow where the top time of the day was 1:31 by a spiced up EVO. I was passing the stock STi cars, which is a common experience for this conversion project.

The turbo output fits the engine well. The stock injectors are 460cc, which comes from RC engineering testing. A stock Legacy turbo pump will do quite well also, but it is cheap enough to replace it with a walbro. BTW you will need a new tank when you go AWD. I have set redline at 7K and the turbo holds at 14 pounds all the way up. My IC never gets really hot, even under full race conditions.

Yes the wiring is difficult. But doable if you stick to it and have the manuals. Matter of fact, I made two engine harnesses myself, the first one for the stock Legacy turbo ECU. BTW, that harness could be yours if you need it.

The air water IC needs all the plumbing, pump, tank and so forth. But it keeps you very stealth and works well. I made all this stuff also so I am sure it works well.

I hope you have as much fun as I did. Good luck.

Mike McBride

Wiring will suck no matter what. I am thinking that I will pull the whole bulkhead harness and use a USDM turbo legacy harness, including rewiring the engine...
mm.. the tec wiring took me ~6 hrs pretty easy

Walbro 255l fuel pump runs less than $100 and drops right in


well not direclty .. the older cars don't have the same connector on the pump but its not that big of a deal

if you do decide to go tec 2 shoot me an email ill shoot you a map or two to try

Thanks for the responses guys.

The intercooler is all black, and I'll get the numbers off the engine tomorrow.

And I have already done most of the AWD drive conversion with the AWD gastank and the rear diff just free spinning, no driveshaft. All parts came off a 97 impreza L.

Yes the wiring is difficult. But doable if you stick to it and have the manuals. Matter of fact, I made two engine harnesses myself, the first one for the stock Legacy turbo ECU. BTW, that harness could be yours if you need it.

This harness could be used on my motor with a stock USDM Legacy ecu? Can I use a USDM turbo legacy ECU on my car? And I forgot to mention that my friend says the engine is JDM, but I don't really know for sure, and I don't think he really knew either. Do you know where I could find these manuals?

About how much does a tec2 go for these days?

thanks

jason p.

skyliner33v

This harness could be used on my motor with a stock USDM Legacy ecu? Can I use a USDM turbo legacy ECU on my car? And I forgot to mention that my friend says the engine is JDM, but I don't really know for sure, and I don't think he really knew either. Do you know where I could find these manuals?

yes. yes, turbo only(91-94). they will all be jdm if intercooled. yes. PM me off line if you need further info. luck.

Mike M

re tec 2:
used ~1000

tec 3 much much cooler
2500

turbo only(91-94).

er you mean 89-94 right :P

er you mean 89-94 right :P

No. US Legacy non-intercooled turbo was MY 91-94. EJ22 block @165 HP. Thats the ECU mentioned.

Mike M

ah yes but the jdm version was 89-94 ..

Jaxx ah yes but the jdm version was 89-94 ..

Hey Jaxx, we are in the........drum roll........US. He doesn't have a jdm ECU according to his first post. So where should he look? In the JDM for a 89-94 ECU or maybe here in the good ole' US of A for a 91-94? Just as a practical matter. Answer , Uhh...in Japan for a commonly available 1989 Legacy Turbo ECU! Uh huh.

But you get points for JDM Legacy trivial pursuit. :D I hope you have a sense of humor.

Mike McBride

Well,
Black AWIC means it is a '92 or '93 engine. the '89-91's were silver. Let us know on the rest of the numbers off the turbo. You see, the RHB52 that MZM so kindly quoted in case I missed it the first time is just the compressor housing. VF-8's, VF-10's, VF-11's and VF-12's all used that housing. But what matters is which Exhaust housing and number of blades you got. In all likelihood it will be a VF-10, but you might have gotten lucky.

BTW,
I can get you a USDM Legacy Turbo ECU if you decide to go that route. Just shoot me a PM...

The compressor housing has 9 blades on it. The only numbers that I could find stamped on the block were 17BB, 12122, Japan, 715 and EJ20 and all were found behind the alternator. Any other place I have to look?

I'll try and get some pics up soon.

PM'd you Matt.

jason p.

the more that i look and retype this chart i think the difference between the GT and RS motor is really not the turbo but the change in rist pin offset ... thus makeing the one of the two motors 8.5 to 1 and the other 8 to 1

GT RS
The highest output PS/rpm 200 220
Largest torque kg * m/rpm 6000 6400
Turbine diameter (entrance / exit) 52.5/43.0 52.5/46.5
Compressor diameter (exit / entrance) 56.0/41.2 56.0/45.0
Largest supercharging pressure 450mmHg 450mmHg
Intercept point 2400rpm 2800rpm
Feather root number 9 10


Piston type Slit type same
Piston gauge diameter (mm) 91.965 same
Piston clearance (mm) 0.01 - 0.03 same
Piston pin offset 1.75 1.0
Piston bearing system Full floating same
Piston pin hole diameter (mm) Phi 23 same
Piston pin total length (mm) 62 same



dam this chart took for evar top get straight

oh and
450 millimeter of mercury [0 °C] = 8.70155 pound-force/square inch (PSI)

Jaxx,
If that were the case, then why do all the AUS/NZ guys confirm my information that the RS manual tranny got the VF-8 and 220ps, and the auto and all the GT's (GT's are wagons and RS's are sedans for others reading who are confused:confused: ) got the VF-10.

Skyliner33V,
If you have 9 blades it is a VF-10, but I am guessing you are looking at the exhaust side since that is the side that would be open to view. Check on the silver side of the turbo under all the black intake plumbing. There is a plate riveted onto the housing. There will be three lines of numbers. Post those numbers...
http://www.incorrigiblegeek.com/MattSubaru/suby12.jpg
Or, if the back of yours looks like that, it is from an auto and surely a VF-10...

yah, mine looks like that one, it came from an automatic.

like nah
http://home.velocitus.net/jaredw/images/turbo.jpg

yeah matt .. i think that it is both bigger turbo and differnt compression ratio

i had trouble befor trying to confirm weather it was 8 to 1 or 8.5 to 1 . now that i look at that sheet it makes sense that it is BOTH

jaxx,
Where did you get that info? everything I have seen says that both engine are 8.5:1
BTW,
you have new e-mail w/tracking #...

well for one .. from spoonaugle's ej20 sheetsheet
and i believe that the impreza verions are all 8 to 1

it was very fuzzy
i gave up and quite worring about it

I am in the process of a similar swap. A 1991 Jspec EJ20G from a Legacy RS turbo 2.0 (VF8)

The VF8 turbo is bigger then the vf10 and vf11 and about the same as the vf12 found on the australian and NZ liberty rs'.

The wiring will be a bitch no matter which way you do it. My mechanic was unable to do the wiring and he has had my car for a very long time. We are now having it flatbedded to Central Florida Turbo in Orlando to finish the wiring.

DO NOT wire the system using BOTH ecu's it will lead to trouble.

You can use the OBD1 and wire it or the OBD2 but internal mods are needed to start it off the OBD2.

between me and Matt Monsoon we have done more research and probobly have tripple the real info then anyone does on the boards reguarding Liberty and Legacy info.
You can also get info on the LibertyRS boards.

PM me or Matt if you have more questions.

Nice pics Matt...

And hopefully I will be posting pics of my car and the full swap process from start to finish within the next 2 or 3 weeks

I don't know if I want that kind of credit. I have done my homework, but haven't even begun the wiring portion of the program. Guys like MZM and Jaxx have gotten their hands way dirtier than mine and I wouldn't for an instant discount their knowledge...

Structure828

between me and Matt Monsoon we have done more research and probobly have tripple the real info then anyone does on the boards reguarding Liberty and Legacy info.

Keep in mind my car runs. It will be in a fifteen stage trans-Mexico tarmac rally event this next weekend, not on a car hauler. But then what do I know. Heh-heh. :cool:



Mike M

PS Matts post just appeared. A humble guy on NASIOC, unheard off!
:D

now i remember why structure828 is on my ignore list
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Well, after much thought and debate, I have decided that I am going to go the aftermarket standalone ecu to wire up the motor. I figure that if I get the standalone, it will save me money and time in the long run as I plan on building a bigger and better motor for this car and I can perform the switch much easier this way. This motor was bought to pretty much satisfy my need for speed now as the 1.8L motor just wasn't cutting it.

So now I have more questions.

Which aftermarket ecu would be ideal for running this motor now, and a different motor later on? I have really only looked at the electromotive tec2 (used or new) and the tec3 (which I wish I could get but can't afford), and the haltech E6k or E6x. Are there any others worth considering? I've heard some pretty good things about the Link/LinkPlus ecu. I hope to spend only about $1000 to $1500(absolute max) for the ECU.

Also, my car is a 93 so I'm pretty sure I'm pre OBDII but not completely positive. Will this make the wiring any easier than an OBDII'd car?

Since I will be running a standalone, can I upgrade to a slightly larger turbo without any damage to the internal parts of the motor?

I've also heard that the heads on the older legacy turbo motors aren't very good to begin with tend to get worse with age so are there any other heads that I can swap with while the motor is out to improve efficiency/performance?

And here is a link to the differences in the EJ20 motors that I found on legacycentral and I wasn't sure if you guys have seen it or not but I thought it would be good to post as a reference.

http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~1amiga/ej2o.htm

thanks again for all the info and help

jason p.

cool chart save as...
how can the compression ratio be the same of the compression pressure is differnt
ok ok

#1 the tec 2 has been realitivly simple to use and install, i can help you out with maps too now you just have to find a used one
i am using the vishnu "pems" system the stock ecu controls some things and the tec others .. go to vishnus page and download the instalation instructions if your intersted. this will not create the same proublem that structure had with running 2 ecu's

#2 its not obd-2 your safe

#3 yes if you can find one - i have been looking for a good deal on a td05 for 18 months now

#4 its subjective they are better than the usdm legacy turbo heads (bad) but not any where near as good as the ej205 or 207 or spec C

#5 you have the second one

intersting differnt cams too
and colder spark plugs (than any other ej20) wonder if it would help to go to a "8" heat range and run more advance

skyliner33v

I have decided that I am going to go the aftermarket standalone ecu
It is easier to use a aftermarket ECU because of the wiring and tuning requirements of the stock (US)ECU. But not easy. Remember you still need a harness that mates to the bulkhead Subaru harness for running the rest of the car. If you make that change yourself it is not expensive, but costs a lot for outside labor.

Still, it can be and often is done by the enthusastic person wanting a Subaru. I have done it both ways, first with the Suby computer and an Apexi thingy, now an Autronic M2. The Autronic is much superior but cost $1500 plus the wiring expense and tuning. Expect to spend $3000 if you pay to have it done for most any standalone. The cost of boy toys I guess. :(

If you are going to make the sacrifice to get your car going, on balance a standalone is the best route. I have heard that TEC2 is not a top level computer, but it does cost less and many people use it. Like the man sez, you get what you pay for. Success.

Mike McBride

Remember you still need a harness that mates to the bulkhead Subaru harness for running the rest of the car.

or use the 1.8 harness like i did

i took harness off 1.8 had to remove manafold
took the harness/manafold off the ej20g
changed around 2 pins in the tps connector
hooked up the water temp sensor
moved over the 1.8 crank sensor
connect oil pressure
connect power steering lever sensor(i used the 1.8 pump and bracket)
used the coil +12v as my "on" for the tec power (may change this tommarow tho..)
chucked the 1.8 knock sensor in the bucket o parts
wrapped the injector, cam sensor, knock leads together and out of the way

and yeah the tec 2 is not top level the tec 3 is tho

quote:
Remember you still need a harness that mates to the bulkhead Subaru harness for running the rest of the car.


or use the 1.8 harness like i did

i took harness off 1.8 had to remove manafold
took the harness/manafold off the ej20g
changed around 2 pins in the tps connector
hooked up the water temp sensor
moved over the 1.8 crank sensor
connect oil pressure
connect power steering lever sensor(i used the 1.8 pump and bracket)
used the coil +12v as my "on" for the tec power (may change this tommarow tho..)
chucked the 1.8 knock sensor in the bucket o parts
wrapped the injector, cam sensor, knock leads together and out of the way

and yeah the tec 2 is not top level the tec 3 is tho

You are right Jaxx, thats what I said, one needs to connect with the bulkhead harness. Using the stock connectors is the only way unless everything is replaced with weatherpaks or duetsch connectors. What is your estimate for a paid professional to figure out and do what you outlined above? We agree I think.

Yes tec3 is better so I hear. Appropriately priced as well.

MM

professional .. the first time .. probblay 3-4 hrs min if he is familiar with subarus

Jaxx,
Sorry I never shot you that chart. I just assumed that you had a copy.:o as for the TD05's, Deadbolt just got a shipment that is clocked with the correct inlet for the older engines. And they are brand new, but they are also $800!

Skyliner,
That is something you will be limited by with an older engine like that, the turbo choices. It all has to do with the inlet. But you sound like you are ready to go for a build, so let me make a suggestion. Get modern EJ20 heads along with the intake manifold and fuel rails. Basically it will entail buying a second engine and taking the top end off of it. Used complete longblock can be found in the classifieds for $500-700 fairly often. Sell off the block for $250-300 and use the rest for your build. Not only will this get you away from the old HLA heads, but it will reroute your intake plumbing and make it so you can get any modern IHI or Mitsu turbo that you want down the road. Also, you can likely sells your HLA EJ20G heads to one of the Legacy Central guys looking to do a DOHC conversion on their EJ22. I would have gone this route if I had more money to work with up front. Unfortunately, I've got too many projects and that extra couple grand is sunk in some Cobb heads.:devil:

But with a closed deck block and modern heads and a big turbo you can very quickly have your car at 300hp for not a lot of money, on the relative scale of things...

i am betting it cam from the same place i got mine .. simmilar to what i posted above..

tdo5: yeah that price sucks, more than a vf-34, hell no espically when they go for ~$40 on the yahoo.jp auctions

Originally posted by Jaxx
i am betting it cam from the same place i got mine .. simmilar to what i posted above..


Actually it is off of a Japanese site that I came across a few months ago when I started doing Legacy research...

with a NZ address?

got the chimeny today 1 bolt lines up .. after considreable cutting ...

oh wells

i finnnaly found my phantom shut off proublem, a cracked battery terminal .. the tec won't fire the coil at all below 10v

of course in the process i broke the intercooler charge pipe :( the air to air version is plastic

Hey,

I'm not sure if you've seen the private classifieds lately, but there is someone selling an ECU and harness for an EJ20G and I was wondering if I could use this for my swap.

Here is the link.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=546410

And I PM'd you Matt.

thanks

jason p.

replied...

Jaxx,
I am sorry to hear that isn't a direct fit. But you made it work, eh?

ooh ooh a turbo ..

and a tec 2
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=498531

jason p.
you have a new PM...;)

PM'd you back.