Ron Bauer posted this to SCCA Forums:


already sent this to Jeff separately, but for those that don't actual click on the link for the June Fastrack, here is the full wording for the proposal.

In the interest of full disclosure of what's actually written in there.....

"The 12 month period provided by Section 3.2 for expedient reclassification of a newly-listed model is about to expire for the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII, currently listed in ESP. In order to retain the option to re-class this car (and the very similar WRX STi) for 2005, while still following the rules process, the SEB is publishing the following class change proposal:

Item 1) Effective 1/1/2005, move the following cars from ESP to BSP: Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII, Subaru WRX STi"

I'm only adding this so that people don't assume that the cars WILL be moved. I'm not saying they won't, but this proposal is to allow the SEB more time to evaluate these cars to be sure they are classed appropriately.

Ron


- Steve

Pony car pressure's getting to the SEB ;)

Heh. One year champions.

--kC

Boo!!!:mad:

1) Why the heck are the Evo and STi attached at the hip?

2) Do they not realize the potentially super competitive class once the 05 Mustang arrives???? Now it will be nothing but another one make class.

I can't believe what a joke classing has become.

the STi and EVO are way too dominant in ESP. I mean think of this:

Both cars are classed in AS which has a PAX of .828

two popular places for it now are STU and ESP. Now, this is where it gets good. BOTH of these classes have a SOFTER PAX than AS? Make sense? No, not one bit.

STU PAX is .827
ESP PAX is even softer at .824 (which allows the most modifications of the 3 classes :eek: )

I'm glad that they are finally going to put them in an appropriate class.

The STU pax is theoretical....
and intentionally conservative, due to lack of accurate data.

The STi is also generally considered an underdog in AS (except in the rain or on a less grippy surface).

Realize that the PAX is based on the best driver in the best car in class. As the STi is not the best AS car, you can't really compare the AS index to the ESP index.... other than the fact that the STi is more competitive in ESP than in AS. And as the Evo and STi didn't compete in ESP last year, they aren't responsible in setting the index time.

But anyway, the same argument about AS versus ESP index could just as easily be be used to justify a move from AS to BS, as from ESP to BSP.

Specifically regarding the STi's classing in ESP... that remains to be decided. They're just hedging their bets at this point, as the 12-month timer was due to expire. They had to put something on the table.

-- Gary

Originally posted by ConeMasher

Specifically regarding the STi's classing in ESP... that remains to be decided. They're just hedging their bets at this point, as the 12-month timer was due to expire. They had to put something on the table.

-- Gary

Yep. The EVO was out in May of 2003. There's not enough data right now to move them. But if the results show this year that they should be moved, they probably will.

I agree that it's sad that ESP is looking like a 'one trick pony'.

I fell like saying to those guys... 'you bought the wrong car for the class' like they enjoy saying about DSMs and other, no offense, bottom feeders that will never rise to the top on a national level. Now that the tides may have turned, they don't like the idea of having to buy a new car to keep up.

The coin flips, they complain.

--kC

Personally, I hope the '05 Mustang turns out to be an overdog for FS & ESP. It would be pretty amusing to watch the ponycar crowd's reaction.... ;) :lol:

-Steve

Are we going to keep moving the cars around until they find a place where they are going to win? Look at the WRX in DS. It's hardly a top contender yet it still remains in that class. Should we move it to GS so that it can be a class winner? No. I feel the STi is in the same boat just in AS. Will it be more competitive in BS? Of coarse, any car that goes to a class with softer PAX will. But how often are you going to move a car until you realize that it's either a middle of the pack runner or a top dog in a class.

I think it's too early for it to tell if it's going to remain in AS or not, but it is very easy to see that it is a dominant car in ESP. (as well as the EVO)

Tom

Originally posted by ConeMasher
The STU pax is theoretical....
and intentionally conservative, due to lack of accurate data.

The STi is also generally considered an underdog in AS (except in the rain or on a less grippy surface).

Realize that the PAX is based on the best driver in the best car in class. As the STi is not the best AS car, you can't really compare the AS index to the ESP index.... other than the fact that the STi is more competitive in ESP than in AS. And as the Evo and STi didn't compete in ESP last year, they aren't responsible in setting the index time.

But anyway, the same argument about AS versus ESP index could just as easily be be used to justify a move from AS to BS, as from ESP to BSP.

Specifically regarding the STi's classing in ESP... that remains to be decided. They're just hedging their bets at this point, as the 12-month timer was due to expire. They had to put something on the table.

-- Gary

its easy to see that it is dominant in ESP?

what national events has it won and were any top fbodies there?


Originally posted by trojan9x
Are we going to keep moving the cars around until they find a place where they are going to win? Look at the WRX in DS. It's hardly a top contender yet it still remains in that class. Should we move it to GS so that it can be a class winner? No. I feel the STi is in the same boat just in AS. Will it be more competitive in BS? Of coarse, any car that goes to a class with softer PAX will. But how often are you going to move a car until you realize that it's either a middle of the pack runner or a top dog in a class.

I think it's too early for it to tell if it's going to remain in AS or not, but it is very easy to see that it is a dominant car in ESP. (as well as the EVO)

Tom

Originally posted by trojan9x
the STi and EVO are way too dominant in ESP. I mean think of this:



I'd love to see the Div, Tour, or Pro results that back that claim.

Maybe we'll see in DC... I have to talk Mike Johnson again but last I spoke with him he was considering running my A-Stock STi in ESP.

-Matt

Ok, maybe WAY is an overstatement, but compare it to say a ESP WRX. How could a car that starts with 50 less HP compete?

Originally posted by trojan9x
Ok, maybe WAY is an overstatement, but compare it to say a ESP WRX. How could a car that starts with 50 less HP compete?

Nobody was talking about the WRX. If you take issue with where the WRX is classed, that's another topic altogether.

- Steve

Originally posted by trojan9x
Ok, maybe WAY is an overstatement, but compare it to say a ESP WRX. How could a car that starts with 50 less HP compete?

huh?

the fbodies in ESP are rated at 300hp stock, but really have more like 350hp stock.


not to mention the STI loses about 20-40hp to the wheels due to all wheel drive.

Originally posted by jmott
huh?

the fbodies in ESP are rated at 300hp stock, but really have more like 350hp stock.


not to mention the STI loses about 20-40hp to the wheels due to all wheel drive.
Yet they still complain that I have awd when we were all geting killed by a mustang
:rolleyes:

Originally posted by afpdl
Yet they still complain that I have awd when we were all geting killed by a mustang
:rolleyes:

if I were them what id complain about is your 300pound weight advantage and multilink rear suspension =)
the AWD is no big advantage on huge tires.

They cant complain about the rear suspension since they can have a double wishbone rear. Well at least the mustang drivers can.

They did complain about the weight too. One actually said he didnt think it was a mustang course except for the fact that a mustang was a sec. in front of the next fastest car.

Ok, I'm was talking about the WRX, not STi.... so that would mean they are about 100hp to the disadvantage then?

Originally posted by jmott
huh?

the fbodies in ESP are rated at 300hp stock, but really have more like 350hp stock.


not to mention the STI loses about 20-40hp to the wheels due to all wheel drive.

Originally posted by trojan9x
Ok, I'm was talking about the WRX, not STi.... so that would mean they are about 100hp to the disadvantage then?

If the sti stays in esp it will end up in the same line as the wrx so it wont have any disadvantages the sti doesnt have.

I dont see what the car being in AS has to do with it being an overdog for ESP there are 2 other AS cars in ESP that no one is complaining about. And weather or not a wrx is competitive in ESP should also have no bearing on the classing decision.

Originally posted by afpdl
If the sti stays in esp it will end up in the same line as the wrx so it wont have any disadvantages the sti doesnt have.

Wrong. THE SPAC specifically indicated the STi will be on a different line than the WRX. Here's a direct quote from the June 2004 FasTrack:

"Subaru WRX STi ESP (separate line from existing WRX listing)"


-Steve

Originally posted by MNbiker
Wrong. THE SPAC specifically indicated the STi will be on a different line than the WRX. Here's a direct quote from the June 2004 FasTrack:

"Subaru WRX STi ESP (separate line from existing WRX listing)"


-Steve
There is only one reason for that and its because the STi is under review. They are not going to put it in the same line and then move it next year. That potentially leaves alot of wrx owners with cars ud/bd up to esp are now suddenly SM cars and the scca doesnt want that happening.

If the STi stays in ESP they will move them to the same line.

Originally posted by afpdl
If the STi stays in ESP they will move them to the same line.

Really???? I didn't know you were on the SPAC! ;)

There are plenty of examples one could point to in support of putting the WRX & STi on the same line OR different lines. There is no set policy. (Personally, I'd love to see the WRX & STi on the same line, as it would allow me to build the STi wagon I want. :devil:

-Steve

IIRC they were moved to different lines the same month the sti and evo were put up for review.

If the car were classed in ESP for good I cant see any reason not to put them on the same line. The only advantage you could get by ud/bd a wrx is save 100lbs from the tranny and having a longer 2nd gear.

If they leave the sti in ESP for good and dont move them to the same line then you can tell me Im wrong;)

what are the typical contenders in BSP?

Originally posted by Akirasoft
what are the typical contenders in BSP?

M3s and c4 vettes.

Isn't that pretty much the same cars an STi would face in AS? Then BSP seems to make sense.

M3s are from BS(the e36s). SS camaros and 03+ cobras are also in AS and ESP. If all the classing made sense we wouldnt be having this disscusion.

Take a look at the Atwater Results from this weekend.

Originally posted by trojan9x
Take a look at the Atwater Results from this weekend.

And I don't see any top ESP talent driving a pony car.

Was there rain? I ask that because AS beat ESP by 3.5 seconds. That shows me there was not much ESP talent there...

So again, if there was no rain, the ESP debate lingers. ;)

--kC

Oh yea! I beat ESP this weekend in my STX car!!1!one!1
Can't use arguments like that, you have to have top national talent driving in ESP.

:)

I think that the car will be outclassed in BSP and its too fast of a car for the *current* ESP. Having said that, I think it should stay in ESP and faster cars should get put in there, such as the 05 rustang, 350Z etc etc.

-Tom

Well, I don't know who's "top talent" and was just showing what one asked to see.

I think Dave Schotz (a top ESP driver) was faster than all but the top ESP car in his FS car.

I think the STi is a under performer in AS Pax .828 and should probably be in BS Pax .826. This would make STU Pax right on at
.827. As far as Street prepared goes if they move the STi/Evo to BSP everyone will switch to the ST class. Just like you never see a reg. WRX in ESP. Or they could just move the Vettes out of AS and BSP.

Originally posted by del105
Just like you never see a reg. WRX in ESP.

I was going to make a run in ESP this year in my wagon... then I ran out of $$ for tires and stuff....

--kC

KC I'd think you would have a good chance of winning ESP in a well prepared WRX.