A few questions about brakes and autox :)

Shawn (my codriver) who is coming from a Type R with R-compounds is complaining about the WRX brakes (surprise!) I've always liked the brakes and they haven't let me down (other then ice mode). So I have a question. Is it
a) Perspective
b) I'm driving around the fact that the brakes suck

Also, what will upgrading the brakes get me? Do I need to touch the rears or just upgrade the fronts??

Right now I have stainless lines, Carbotech bobcats, and ATE fluid and the stock damn rotors :eek: 50K miles, 2.5 years, oloa..... I very much like the way they feel. Of course they could be like a Type R, but I figured that was a car limitation.

I was thinking about
a) Wilwood 6 pot fronts with huge rotors and carbotech bobcats
b) Carbotech stock sized rotors and bobcats on the rear, stock calipers

How does that sound? Is there a setup that would be better? I know the stoptechs actually have less brake torque with their bigass calipers then the stockers. I'm assuming its the same thing with the wilwoods. Do I need to upgrade the rear calipers as well and rear rotors to prevent too much brake bias in the front?? Wilwood also makes the 4 pot rears, but that puts me at $2000. Thats a lot of $$ to convince a sponsor to swallow ;)

-Tom

Short of upgrading the brake booster, there's nothing on this planet for auto-x that'll help the WRX in an auto-x environment...

So... "b) I'm driving around the fact that the brakes suck"

--kC

What aspect of the brakes is he complaining about? Is it feel, fade resistance, stopping power? The solution is going to depend on what the "problem" is. If all you want to do change brake bias and feel you can do so for a good deal less than whatever a big brake kit costs. And while the Wilwood kit may shift brake bias to the rear I wouldn't just assume that it does. There are some kits out there (like one of the Brembo kits) that increase front brake torque and moves the bias farther forward.

I'd keep the sucky brakes, because they are not that bad.

you aren't going to get fade in an autocross. so upgrading the calipers/rotors would be pointless.

some grippy pads might be useful if you can't get enough brake power to engage ABS on the r-compounds.

autocross, i'd agree w/ KC based on me autocrossing about 4 times in my entire life. so my vote probably shouldn't count.

on the track, my friend had a type r. he could out brake me by about 150 ft. (i'd brake at 400, he'd brake at 250). even w/ my stop techs. he just bought an sti and curses the brakes. he's now braking way back where i am. it boils down to the weight differences of the cars (his type r was on a healthly weight loss plan).

he also liked the fact that his car had more rear bias. he could be slightly off line, reach over with his left foot and tap the brake, and it would slightly rotate the rear and tighten the line up to where he needed to be.

luke

Odd that the STi brakes well in car mag tests but still sucks.

Tell Shawn to quit crying and just drive the car. ;) Damn Type R owners... :rolleyes:

I think my brakes feel great with just the Bobcats, but I haven't driven the Type R lately. I do know that the last time I drove it, I almost hit my head on the steering wheel at the first braking zone. :lol:

Anyone coming from a Type-R is gonna be a brake snob. The car really does have phenomenal brakes. Even coming from my GS-R (which has horrible ABS and only mediocre brakes compared to the R) I've been struggling to get the feel where I want it to be with the STi. Granted it does weigh over 800lbs more then my integra, it could still use some more "feel".

Unfortunatly I've never driven a regular old run of da mill WRX so... maybe I should not comment at all! :D


-Matt

/me slaps Tom around for even thinking about this after... what... years of discussion on how bad Subaru brakes suck.

Subaru, if you're reading this... we want brakes like...
1) Integra Type-R
2) Mazda RX-8, Mazda 6

Yes, the Mazda 6, same weight as a WRX can out brake it and has tons better feel. If Mazda can do it, so can Subaru.

Integra Type-R - 60-0 115 ft (2630 curb weight)
Mazda 6 - 60-0 125 ft (3250 curb weight)
Mazda RX-8 - 60-0 114 ft (3020 curb weight)
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Evo - 60-0 110 ft (3263 curb weight)

Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?

Edit: Added EVO

--kC

My opinion....BBK ALMOST universally accepted as not needed for auto-x, as their biggest advantage is heat dissipation efficiency (fade reduction on road course, continuous heavy heat cycles)which isn't a problem in auto-x. If your OEM's are starting to fade, maybe just a new set of fresh rotors, and the pads and lines you have already are considered optimal for their application.

Now Mikey, who is dragging almost the whole course (:lol: ), he may benefit from BBK..........

But Hey! Since a sponsor is willing to pick up the tab...Why Not!

Originally posted by jmott
so upgrading the calipers/rotors would be pointless.

Well there are weight savings to be had in those areas. Also a stiffer caliper and different brake piston sizes are going to have an effect on pedal feel. And the potential changes in brake bias. If the cost is worth those benefits is really going to depend on the individual.

He complains about the "feel" which is why I think a 6 pot blingy kit can help him. Hell, one can always use more brake feel :)

Engaging the ABS is no problem, which is why I think that the stock brakes are good enough. I did notice that on the STi its WAY WAY harder to engage the ABS then in my car. IMHO the big front bias of the WRX locks the fronts up (confirmed by braking w/o the ABS fuse and checking my tire marks :) ). Shifting more bias towards the back with one of the blingy kits might help the feel and might convince the ABS to engage a tad later.

This all came after shawn drove a Ford Contour SVT and said "uhhh Tom, the Contour SVT has better brakes then your WRX" :) Before he drove that friggin FORD everything was OK cause he was only comparing WRX to Type R :lol: ;)

I have a G-tech meter, so I can do some before and after brake testing if I do go with that bling Wilwood 6 potter to make sure that its working better and "feeling" better.

This is a quote from shawn
"Seriously the brake upgrade would be cool if it's "free" but it isn't a "must have" item to be competitive. I'm already starting to calibrate my brain to the braking capability of your car. It isn't really a problem just what sticks out as the major difference between the WRX and the Type R"

If we can get a sponsor to help us, or get one cheap used, we';ll try it. Otherwise, I'll have shawn calibrate his brain more and just enjoy the already pretty damn good (THANKS CARBOTECH!!) brakes that the car has :)

-Tom

Even the new GTO at 3750lbs... brakes at 125 feet.

--kC

Originally posted by KC
Even the new GTO at 3750lbs... brakes at 125 feet.

--kC

And it has much bigger and probably better tires than a WRX. Tires make a huge difference in braking distance.

Tom, if you just want to shift bias rearward a bit there's always the $200 "H6" rear brake option.

Originally posted by KC

WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)

Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?

--kC

RE070s instead of re92s is probobably the biggest difference in the test numbers.

I understand that. However, the feel of the Mazdas are very good, and they go along with their braking numbers.

Take an RX8 out for a test drive. The car is barely lighter than a WRX.

Originally posted by KC
I understand that. However, the feel of the Mazdas are very good, and they go along with their braking numbers.

Take an RX8 out for a test drive. The car is barely lighter than a WRX.


The Mazda 3s I drove at the rev-it-up had pretty good brake feel, with a very aggresive tip in. And the brakes look TINY on those things.

Mazda3 (2857 lbs) 60-0 = 125 Ft. (I'm probably not getting that from the same source as KC)

Originally posted by driggity
Tom, if you just want to shift bias rearward a bit there's always the $200 "H6" rear brake option.

There is that, I just don't think that will help me at all in the "feel" department, which is his complaint.

It is something that I've read about today and definetly would be something to consider if the sponsor brakes don't work out and I have to use my own money :eek:

-Tom

Originally posted by TyrannoSullyRex
Mazda3 (2857 lbs) 60-0 = 125 Ft. (I'm probably not getting that from the same source as KC)

Actually, the place I was getting my numbers from does have the 3 as 125 feet.

--KC

Feel for Subarus is definitely the difference between the Single Stage booster and the stock Dual Stage booster.

--KC

So looks like the Mazda 3 has the same brakes as the WRX :lol:

-Tom

Cripes Tom, you TRULY are Mr. Indecisive!:rolleyes: :lol: :lol:

IMHO - WRX brakes are the weakest link in the car. The ABS system, in particular, is junk. I've had some top-notch co-drivers (who are not used to WRX's) have major issues with the brakes. Unfortunately, nothing that's STX-legal can truly remedy these shortcomings. (ABS changeout not legal, sticky tires not legal)

It is something you adapt to, though. I almost never hit the ABS, and don't feel like I'm "babying" the brakes. Look at it this way, driving a WRX is excellent practice for learning threshhold braking!:p :lol:

If you REALLY want to spend money, just get an H6 rotor upgrade for the rear. It adds about 10% more swept area to the rear brakes, shifting brake bias rearward just about as much as the Stoptech kit, but for a LOT less money!;)

-Steve

(who still longs for the wonderful brakes in the E46 BMW he used to own....)

Me? Indecisive? No? Am i? You sure? I dunno?

*Maybe* (:lol: :rolleyes: ) I should just tell shawn, hey buddy get used to it, the brakes suck and those blingy kits aren't going to help anything......

My next question is then "WHAT is the crappy pedal "feel" caused by? Is it by the floating flexible calipers?" If so, that CAN be fixed by nice calipers.....

I could get the stoptechs and THEN the H6 rear rotors :devil:

If you REALLY want to spend money I hate spending $$. I'm trying to get the sponsors to help a brother out here!

-Tom

I think that alot of the "feel" issues are caliper related and booster related.

Subie 4 pots up front + H6 rear with carbotech and ss lines and maybe new front rotors (especially if you have 50k on the OEM)

Also, stoptech or other BBK certainly won't be any WORSE for auto-x, so if you can get 'em....go for it...............

Tom,

i upgraded to stoptechs at the end of last year. i've only done one autox on them so far and the abs is still super sensitive. on the street they feel a whole lot better. pedal feel is improved. the only thing that agrivates me is pad knockback is increased with the larger pads. stoptech puts more bias in the rear than stock so if you were locking up the fronts this might help a little.

i'm doing 2 events this weekend so i can tell you more after i test them with and without abs.

btw. i was running panther plus' and the axis ultimates that some with the stoptechs suck.

-Jason

Hey Tom,

One other thought. The "feel" of my brakes had been going downhill for a while. Turns out my my front Bobcats were badly glazed. I probably overheated them once or twice at some psuedo-track sessions (yeah, I was too lazy to swap in the Panther XP's:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I replaced them a couple weeks ago, and it was like getting a new set of brakes!:D

-Steve

A lot of the "feel" problems that subaru's have is the way that the brakes are physically set up to actuate the brake lights. In all the subaru's I have driven there is a dead spot for about the 1st inch of travel. This section is where the brake light switch is being closed and the piston in the MC is not being actuated yet. if you look at the clearances when you take the MC off there is a lot of room to play. If one were to fill the gap in the MC and adjust the brake pedal height along with changing the way the brake lights are actuated, it would result in more direct brake feel and quicker action with the brakes.

As far as shorter stopping distances, lower the weight, and get better tires. As long as you can lock the wheels the only things that help with straight line braking to a stop (60 to 0 tests) are tires and in a very much smaller way- suspension geometry, bushings, shocks and springs. And a better ABS system could go a decent ways towards helping the WRX. <-- almost forgot that last one.

Originally posted by speedyHAM
if you look at the clearances when you take the MC off there is a lot of room to play. If one were to fill the gap in the MC and adjust the brake pedal height along with changing the way the brake lights are actuated, it would result in more direct brake feel and quicker action with the brakes.

So what youre saying is to basically preload the MC a bit?

I have already taken out all the slop that I could find with the brake pedal. I have it to the point that there is about a mm of play in the pedal before it starts to push the MC rod in. Are you saying that even though it starts to push that rod in, it doesn't actually actuate it??

Originally posted by MNbiker
Hey Tom,

One other thought. The "feel" of my brakes had been going downhill for a while. Turns out my my front Bobcats were badly glazed. I probably overheated them once or twice at some psuedo-track sessions (yeah, I was too lazy to swap in the Panther XP's:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I replaced them a couple weeks ago, and it was like getting a new set of brakes!:D

-Steve

I know I glazed them a tad this past weekend, but before then they were just fine. I did a TON of runs in a row. Enough to get my azenis to almost 160 degrees and to slightly fade the bobcats :eek: I was going to flush the fluid out of there tommorow and unglaze the pads with some sandpaper....

Also, "indecisive tom" almost decided what he is going to do.
a) If we get wilwoods from sponsors then, wilwoods + bobcats + ss lines in front, and carbotech stock sized rear rotors + bobcats + ss lines

b) If we don't get wilwoods. Carbotech stock sized rotors + bobcats + ss lines front. H6 upgrade with carbotech rotors + bobcats + ss lines rear.

-Tom
*hoping for teh bling*

Found a VERY informative thread.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=488816&highlight=wilwood

-Tom

Tom,
Are you concerned about the legality of H6 upgrade? In my standard overly analytical approach, I've come to be concerned with the fact that the upgrade requires the bending/cutting of the factory rear dust shields. As they aren't addressed in the rules, which simply allow rotor/caliper upgrades, I'd be concerned it could be the target of a weenie protest.

-- Gary

Originally posted by trhoppe
a) If we get wilwoods from sponsors then, wilwoods + bobcats + ss lines in front, and carbotech stock sized rear rotors + bobcats + ss lines

Can't say as I'm a big fan of the Wilwoods. They're not really sized correctly for the WRX, in that they actually INCREASE front brake bias. The only car I've driven with Wilwoods installed didn't impress me at all. (disclaimer: it was a set of the flexy dynalite calipers - the new ones may be better.)

-Steve

Originally posted by ConeMasher
Tom,
Are you concerned about the legality of H6 upgrade? In my standard overly analytical approach, I've come to be concerned with the fact that the upgrade requires the bending/cutting of the factory rear dust shields. As they aren't addressed in the rules, which simply allow rotor/caliper upgrades, I'd be concerned it could be the target of a weenie protest.

-- Gary


If someone wants to protest me for removing my dustshields for a legal mod let them. I don't care :)

Originally posted by MNbiker
Can't say as I'm a big fan of the Wilwoods. They're not really sized correctly for the WRX, in that they actually INCREASE front brake bias. The only car I've driven with Wilwoods installed didn't impress me at all. (disclaimer: it was a set of the flexy dynalite calipers - the new ones may be better.)

-Steve

The ones we are looking at are their 6 pots. Completely different line of calipers. They supposedly lower front torque by like 4 or 5% instead of the stoptech 10%. They are also *supposed* to be a lot less flexy then the POS dynalites.

Basically, if they are free, I'll take them, but if theyre not, I'm not about to pay $$ for them ;)

-Tom

I outbraked a Type-R. Its no big deal. Just get a lighter car :p

Originally posted by trhoppe
Basically, if they are free, I'll take them, but if theyre not, I'm not about to pay $$ for them ;)

-Tom

Smart man! ;)

Tom, the gains you're going to get with bigger brakes in an autox, if any, will NOT be worth it. I know now, that the brakes on our car are sufficiently good for auto-x. Their downside is definitely the feel. But you're used to it... why and go change something that works?

I haven't seen anyone with the experience you have in the auto-x world post any gains for using BBKs in an auto-x, and having some form of measurement to say they did or didn't make a difference for auto-x.

If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.

--kC

Originally posted by KC
If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.


Or just move to Street Mod, where you can replace all the crappy brake components with whatever you want.:devil:

...and get that nice 2.5l STi engine, tranny & diff's.

...and that yummy quick-ratio steering rack.

...and those sticky 275 Hoosiers.

...and the fender flares to go with them.

...and spend $50K+ doing it!:lol: :lol: :lol:

Originally posted by KC
Tom, the gains you're going to get with bigger brakes in an autox, if any, will NOT be worth it. I know now, that the brakes on our car are sufficiently good for auto-x. Their downside is definitely the feel. But you're used to it... why and go change something that works?

I haven't seen anyone with the experience you have in the auto-x world post any gains for using BBKs in an auto-x, and having some form of measurement to say they did or didn't make a difference for auto-x.

If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.

--kC

I agree with you up to the "feel" point. A caliper that is way stiffer then stock will definetly "feel" better. It might be a very slight difference, but I think there will be a difference. The car won't be any faster, but it might inspire some confidence.

-Tom

Originally posted by trhoppe
I agree with you up to the "feel" point. A caliper that is way stiffer then stock will definetly "feel" better. It might be a very slight difference, but I think there will be a difference. The car won't be any faster, but it might inspire some confidence.

-Tom

IMHO, I feel it's an issue with the dual stage booster. Your foot and pedal are not directly linked to the Calipers, the booster is in the way.

I feel that with that weak point, you're only going to receive marginal results, and definietly not worth it.

I wonder how many of those guys with BBks have upgraded to the Single Stage booster.

--kC

Originally posted by KC
I wonder how many of those guys with BBks have upgraded to the Single Stage booster.

I'm guessing VERY few...

Too bad brake booster replacements aren't free in STX.;) :(

Originally posted by MNbiker
Too bad brake booster replacements aren't free in STX.;) :(

Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? :D

Tom I'm suprised that you don't have the SS lines on there already...

Originally posted by DrBiggly
Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? :D

Tom I'm suprised that you don't have the SS lines on there already...

He meant legal ;)

I already do have the SS lines.

-Tom

Originally posted by DrBiggly
Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? Actually, I meant "unrestricted", which is the exact word used in the rules. Too tired to think straight.....:confused:

-Steve

So what youre saying is to basically preload the MC a bit?

Ummm... don't do that. I took the slop out of the Imprezas the same way you described, and I did the same to my mom's Forester. Except on the Forester, I took out TOO MUCH slop & pre-loaded the MC. About 2 miles into the test drive, the brakes overheated & started to seize up. Unfortunately, my adjustment wrenches were accidentally left at home!!! :eek: So I had to pull over, let the brakes cool a little, then creep back home with my tail between my legs and let a little slack back into the pedal.

Learn from my eff-up. :)

Originally posted by KC
/me slaps Tom around for even thinking about this after... what... years of discussion on how bad Subaru brakes suck.

Subaru, if you're reading this... we want brakes like...
1) Integra Type-R
2) Mazda RX-8, Mazda 6

Yes, the Mazda 6, same weight as a WRX can out brake it and has tons better feel. If Mazda can do it, so can Subaru.

Integra Type-R - 60-0 115 ft (2630 curb weight)
Mazda 6 - 60-0 125 ft (3250 curb weight)
Mazda RX-8 - 60-0 114 ft (3020 curb weight)
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)

Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?

--kC

Don't forget the EVO in this comparison. It shares the same calipers as the STI but has consistantly better braking times and overall better braking feedback than the STI.

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0307scc_stievo/

EVO: 60-0 106ft, (3263 curb weight)

The source I used, to keepit consistant:

Evo - 60-0 110 ft (3263 curb weight)

--kC

Is there anyone out there selling a single stage booster?

Originally posted by spidey02wrx
Is there anyone out there selling a single stage booster?

I beleive there's a Subaru Part number for it.

Tom: http://www.spdusa.com/soft.htm

--kC

Originally posted by Fred
Ummm... don't do that. I took the slop out of the Imprezas the same way you described, and I did the same to my mom's Forester. Except on the Forester, I took out TOO MUCH slop & pre-loaded the MC. About 2 miles into the test drive, the brakes overheated & started to seize up. Unfortunately, my adjustment wrenches were accidentally left at home!!! :eek: So I had to pull over, let the brakes cool a little, then creep back home with my tail between my legs and let a little slack back into the pedal.

Learn from my eff-up. :)

Dumb question, but how does one go about removing the slop?

Also, when I upgraded my front brakes to an AP setup there was an improved feel. Not huge, but its a nice side effect to go along with the increased fade resistance. Pretty much what you would expect with a stiffer caliper and smaller piston sizes. To a lesser extent similar results should occur with the Subaru 4-pots.

I think that TWR and maybe Chaste Automotive were working on single stage boosters. There are also some other Subarus that came with the single stage booster but I'm not sure how they compare to the WRX booster in terms of size. That information is out there on this board somewhere though.

The Mazda 3s with the 2.3L engine (160hp) has bigger brakes than the WRX.

Fronts: 11.8" versus 11.4"

Rears: 11" versus 10.3"

trhoppe- yes, even though the slop is out of the pedal the movement of the rod that actuates the MC does not engage the MC piston for a few tenths of an inch and that leads the the dead travel at the top of the pedal throw. You do not want to pre load the MC at all, but removing all the slop possible (leave a tiny bit for safety) helps the feel a lot.

Originally posted by driggity
Dumb question, but how does one go about removing the slop?

The brakes in my RS felt the same as the '02-'03's way to spongy. But I have to say the brakes in the '04 feel a lot better. There's not as much slop. And the pedal feel is great.

I upgraded my brakes to the Stop-techs and they worked well.
The only issues I have is that 1. you do have to adjust the backing plates. 2. they are dusty and 3. I left foot brake, when racing, and was loosing momentum in the corners because the brakes now grab really hard. So I had to go back to normal right footing it.

I tend to disagree with free Wilwood's are better. The issue with the Wilwood's is that they will definitely shift the brake bias to the front, where you do not want it. If you do go with the Wilwood 6-pots, you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. I do know that the folks at Stoptech have taken the bias into account with their brake kits.

I say to folks who complain about the brake feel, is that it is mostly in your head. Sure if we take Road & Tracks braking 60 to 0 distance numbers for example:

Accord EX-V6 - 145ft
Accord EX-V6 Coupe - 127ft
Mazda MX5 Miata - 150ft :eek:
Mazda 6s - 136ft
Mustang Mach 1 - 122ft
RSX Type S - 146ft
Boxster S - 116ft
WRX - 138ft
STi - 111ft

Braking distance number compared on stock outfitted cars, with the factory tires are a complete red herring. We all know the first thing that improves our braking distances are the tires. I know from my own G-Tech tests that the WRX will pull a 1G stop from 60MPH's.

I would concentrate on weight distribution (where possible), lowering the car as low as possible (without compromising the suspension geometry), and H6 rears with a proper bias controller.

Originally posted by Subayai WRX
.....you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking.
Unfortunately, this isn't STX-legal.


Originally posted by Subayai WRX
I say to folks who complain about the brake feel, is that it is mostly in your head.
Ever driven a BMW 3-Series much? The difference in brake feel between a 3-Series and a WRX is huge. Does brake feel make a difference in ultimate stopping distance numbers in a controlled test? Generally not. Does it make a difference in one's ability to precisely modulate braking force? Absolutely!

-Steve

*** Using my source

Originally posted by Subayai WRX
Accord EX-V6 - 145ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 130 ft

Accord EX-V6 Coupe - 127ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 127 ft

Mazda MX5 Miata - 150ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 121 ft

Mazda 6s - 136ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 125 ft

Mustang Mach 1 - 122ft
*** ??

RSX Type S - 146ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 135 ft

Boxster S - 116ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 115 ft

WRX - 138ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 130 ft.

STi - 111ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 114 ft


I'm not saying who's numbers are right or wrong, but I'd be willing to be that the R&T tests heavily favor American Cars, especially since all the numbers they published for Imported cars are much higher... except for the STi... which stumps me. :)

--kC

Originally posted by Subayai WRX
I tend to disagree with free Wilwood's are better. The issue with the Wilwood's is that they will definitely shift the brake bias to the front, where you do not want it. If you do go with the Wilwood 6-pots, you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. I do know that the folks at Stoptech have taken the bias into account with their brake kits.
I would concentrate on weight distribution (where possible), lowering the car as low as possible (without compromising the suspension geometry), and H6 rears with a proper bias controller.

From the research I had done, the Wilwoods were around a 5% increase in the front, with the H6 rears, being a 10% increase in the rear. After that research, I was going to go with both of those on the car (If wilwood gives me a kit). Otherwise, it will be just the H6 rears.

-Tom

Tom,

Have you thought about the additional unsprung weight and rotational inertia from the calipers and rotors? Assuming increased mass with a BBK, this will be just more mass to turn. Will your braking feel be enough to make up for the "lost" power?

I think I'm going to side with KC here just based on those reasons. I was watching one of the cheesy shows on the SPEED channel where they're building up a RSX-S track car. After putting the stoptechs on, they lost something like 5-10hp? I can't remember the exact number. (They dyno'd the car after every single modification and on every show they did 1 mod.) Their time did very slightly improve around the track, but they mainly attributed that to the brakes no longer fading.

edit: They did say that the feel was a bit better though. :)

KC, my point was that R&T while a biased magazine (like any are not!), does test the cars in stock configuration. This is why the Miata of all cars yielded such poor numbers!

A brake test done without revealing the brand of tires if useless information. I don't think R&T favors any one brand when you look at the tech data table in the back. Tires are the number source of stopping distance (given the ABS triggers). I totally agree with you in regards to the modulation and feel of different systems. This is why I spend the money and run Endless pads for my D stock WRX. The brake feel is second to none. Do they make the car stop quicker, nope!

Tom, you should try hitting up StopTech. Both are local companies to me, and I talked with Wilwood, and have seen the Wilwoods up close and apart. By biggest beef with the 6 piston, forged calipers was that there is no dust seal on the pistons. While not a problem for a race car, the lack of dust seals just didn't sit well with me on a daily driver.

<parental voice on/

If you are driving to and from events I would not put on anything that is not DOT-approved.

This is an extreme example, but... if you are involved in an accident and it becomes known that you don't have DOT-approved brakes, you stand a chance of being cancelled by your insurance company or worse...being held liable for the accident even if you are not at fault.

/parental voice off>

Info from friends in the insurance business:rolleyes:

Biggly - The BBK stuff is lighter then stock :)

Subayai WRX - While I wholely agree with you on that Stoptech is a better system, its a matter of me being provided with a free set of wilwoods vs. paying for stoptechs. I don't want to put out any $$ as, like KC, I believe that the $$ is DEFINETLY not worth the benfit for autox.

-Tom

Originally posted by trhoppe
He complains about the "feel" which is why I think a 6 pot blingy kit can help him. Hell, one can always use more brake feel :)

Engaging the ABS is no problem, which is why I think that the stock brakes are good enough. I did notice that on the STi its WAY WAY harder to engage the ABS then in my car. IMHO the big front bias of the WRX locks the fronts up (confirmed by braking w/o the ABS fuse and checking my tire marks :) ). Shifting more bias towards the back with one of the blingy kits might help the feel and might convince the ABS to engage a tad later.

This all came after shawn drove a Ford Contour SVT and said "uhhh Tom, the Contour SVT has better brakes then your WRX" :) Before he drove that friggin FORD everything was OK cause he was only comparing WRX to Type R :lol: ;)

I have a G-tech meter, so I can do some before and after brake testing if I do go with that bling Wilwood 6 potter to make sure that its working better and "feeling" better.

This is a quote from shawn
"Seriously the brake upgrade would be cool if it's "free" but it isn't a "must have" item to be competitive. I'm already starting to calibrate my brain to the braking capability of your car. It isn't really a problem just what sticks out as the major difference between the WRX and the Type R"

If we can get a sponsor to help us, or get one cheap used, we';ll try it. Otherwise, I'll have shawn calibrate his brain more and just enjoy the already pretty damn good (THANKS CARBOTECH!!) brakes that the car has :)

-Tom


Duh, the contour svt stops faster. back in there day i dont think you could get a car that stops faster for 20 grand. way better tires than the wrx RE92's. the contours rotor size was a lil small so with lots and lots of braking there is fade. but its set up is perfect for auto-x. too bad they dont have traction going forward. anyone wanna buy a svt conour :(

Did anyone have GTech or any other readings on the difference on 60-0 braking with and without the H6 / Legacy rear rotor upgrade? I'm curious to see the tangible differences.

I know what you guys are saying about brake feel. I have been stuggling with that on my RS for a while. I just hate that my girlfriends econobox Mazda Protege LX has way better pedal feel then my car.

I think the dual stage setup is the problem, which is why I just learn to live with my crappy pedal feel. I don't think that even if I dropped a ton of money on some bling blinging brakes I would be happy with the feel in comparison to other cars. So IMO it's either deal with it, or move to SM, so I just deal with it.

-Wes

I would be more interested in this single stage booster that KC mentioned. Anyone using one? Anyone have any more info about it? I would also like to see some test data with the Legacy rear brake setup. That would be a nice way to shift bias rearward without having to use 17" wheels.

My main complaints about the WRX brakes are feel and the ice mode of the ABS which hits me on certian courses. I also get inconsistent braking results. In my tests, over 5 stops I would get a +/- 0.2 g variation on the same surface using the same stopping technique. If you don't left foot brake then there's not much you can do to lessen that dead time between accelerating and decellerating that the WRX brakes forces you to have. It seems to take too long from the time you start pressing the pedal to the time you get into serious decelleration. Take your car somewhere safe and try switching between the gas and brake several times and what I'm talking about will become very apparent if you aren't already aware of it.

Seems to me the ultimate brake setup would give you
1. Linear modulation
2. A very short time between the time you start pressing the pedal until you get to full braking force. I wonder how R&T tests brakes. Is it done robotically by tripping a actuator at a specific spot and measuring the time between trip and stop or do they do it the old fashioned way and use a driver sighting a marker cone?
3. More rear bias

Not necessarilly in that order

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the firewall flex issue; is the MRT booster brace legal in STX? If so, while it won't likely do much for initial application of the brakes, it will definitely affect deeper travel and feel. A friend bought one, and before he went to the trouble to install it we checked out the flex.

I was skeptical before, but not any more; flex, and movement of the entire MS/booster assembly, was very noticeable, even with moderate pedal pressure. Iirc it max'd out at nearly 1/8"...

Originally posted by driggity
Also, when I upgraded my front brakes to an AP setup there was an improved feel. Not huge, but its a nice side effect to go along with the increased fade resistance. Pretty much what you would expect with a stiffer caliper and smaller piston sizes. To a lesser extent similar results should occur with the Subaru 4-pots.


Hmmm...we should switch cars sometime and compare brakes. I've just got the 4-pots, with SST lines, and Ultimates, all around. And the difference in feel is like night and day compared to stock :D So much so that I completely forgot about trying to adjust the pedal travel to get the most possible play out of the system.

After the initial freeplay - much less than stock - which I don't really notice on the street, the pedal is very firm, w/o being hard, and very linear.

Back to brakes!!

Stuff kinda panned out and I have a choice of

a) Wilwood 6 pot front, 4 pot rear WRX kits
or
b) 17x8 Rotas (17.5lbs) and new carbotech rotors all around (H6 rear)

Do I
a) Lose almost 10lbs a corner but keep the 7.5" wheels (which are lighter)
b) Say screw the brakes, make the stock system work better by getting the H6 rear and new rotors and go with 0.5" more wheel width and 2 lbs extra per wheel.

-Tom

Originally posted by trhoppe
Back to brakes!!

Stuff kinda panned out and I have a choice of

a) Wilwood 6 pot front, 4 pot rear WRX kits
or
b) 17x8 Rotas (17.5lbs) and new carbotech rotors all around (H6 rear)

Do I
a) Lose almost 10lbs a corner but keep the 7.5" wheels (which are lighter)
b) Say screw the brakes, make the stock system work better by getting the H6 rear and new rotors and go with 0.5" more wheel width and 2 lbs extra per wheel.

-Tom

I'd go with the rims, Tom. Just my 2 cents. I doubt the Wilwoods (or any BBK) will be particularly helpful at autox, just IMO. On track, yeah - a totally different story. I bet you'd notice a lot more difference out of that extra rim width.

Scott

I bet you'd notice a lot more difference out of that extra rim width.


Even though you effectively have 12lbs less per corner? :confused:

-Tom
Not sure, just asking :)

I'd say the brakes. How much do you think you are actually giving up by not having the 17x8" wheels?

Let's see...

Improve brakes so you slow down a little better, and add weight to the wheels so you don't speed up quite as quickly. Sounds good to me! :D If the handling benefits of the 8" wheels don't make up that difference, maybe I can pick up 9 points at Sanford (or somewhere). :lol:

I have nothing useful to add, just happen to be bored.

:p

Originally posted by trhoppe
Even though you effectively have 12lbs less per corner? :confused:

-Tom
Not sure, just asking :)

Well, my logic (which could very well be flawed, :p ) is based on my own observations as the owner of a BBK.

Personally, I doubt that your stopping distances will change by any significant amount. This assumes that you will run the same pads in the Wilwoods as you do in your stockers, and retain the same tires. You will have much greater fade resistance, to be sure...but that won't improve your times unless you have been consistently fading the stockers while taking all those podiums. I'm betting that's not the case. ;)

It is also possible that you could gain a tiny amount of time by the change in brake bias, if that suits your driving style...but that's pretty iffy IMHO.

An extra 1/2" of rim width would permit you to safely go up 20mm or so in tire width, right? Maybe more, in some cases? That's a lot of potential rubber I can use for more traction, stopping, and cornering power. It's 'usable' for the entire track, whereas the brakes are only effective in the braking zones (and even then, not necessarily slowing you any quicker).

The weight thing is a tough call. Who *wouldn't* want to lose 10 lbs. per corner? That could be worth a 10th or two, maybe...with you driving. With me driving? Hell, I'd never notice it.

I dunno...just some thoughts. You'll be fast as hell anyway, regardless of what you choose. :D

What tires would you go to if you get the 8 inch rims?

Oops forgot to mention that. I would be on the same tires, as I haven't found anything that works better yet. 225/45/17 azenis.

I calculated the brake torque, I'm gaining 0.25% in the front and 0.40% in the rear. So yes, the stopping distances would not be better, so the ONLY reason to get the brakes would be to loose the weight. Looks like the stock system with H6 rears would actually work better for me :lol:

Hmmmm.......why do I have to be so damn indecisive!! :lol:

-Tom

I dont really see how the 8s are going to help 225s all that much, Id either lose weight or leave it alone.

Any ideas as to how the 8.0" vs the 7.5" rim would change the section width of your 225/45/17 Azenis?

http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/773.html

Here is what it does to a 205 on a 7" vs 7.5" wheel :)

-Tom

The sidewalls come out alot more but I dont see the tread getting all that much wider.

Originally posted by afpdl
The sidewalls come out alot more but I dont see the tread getting all that much wider.

Agreed. If you look at the bottom two on the stack, they look almost identical.

I think an 8" wheel would help the 225 a *bit*, but if its worth the 2-3lbs per wheel? I dunno. :lol:

-Tom
indecisive

Originally posted by trhoppe
http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/773.html

Here is what it does to a 205 on a 7" vs 7.5" wheel :)

-Tom

hmmm...tough call

Tom, you can't do a 245/45/17 can you? Or will that cause rubbage or throw other things out of whack?

I can see why you are in a delimma. Look at it this way -- it's a good delimma to have. :D

Scott

245/45/17 would kill the gearing. It would offset any good things :lol:

It doesn't *suck* to be in this dilemna, but it also wouldn't suck if someone came out and said

"uhh yea, losing 10lbs a corner, 5 of it in rotational mass of the rotor would give you 0.5 seconds on a 60 seconds course, as compared to the 0.2 seconds you would gain with your wider rims....mmmkay"

-Tom