Do the Borla headers fit MY00 (The ones that fit 98-99)?
Any dyno? hp increase? Anything besides cool sound?

But Plato said we couldn't talk about headers in the tech sect... Oh wait. Wrong Thread.

Nick STi

I am not sure if they fit, but I don't think they changed much on the exhaust side for 2000. So my guess is yes. Apparently Borla dyno'ed them, got about 6hp and 6 ftlbs of torque, and decided to head back to the drawing board. Not sure if that is actually happening, but they are apparently trying to make more power in a newer design. But coupled with a free flowing exhaust, an intake, and a SAFC, the improvements might be even more. There is really no detail on the figures and how they reached them. Imprezer has one on his car, and I noticed a small difference in comparison to my almost identical car without the headers.

I hate to say it, but the sound is the coolest part in my opinion. That's why I am waiting for the second generation, or better yet, getting a turbo.

josh

Hello,

Thanks, Josh http://208.9.184.110/NonCGI/smile.gif But notice Nick asked for tech instead of noise http://208.9.184.110/NonCGI/biggrin.gif

As Josh said, Borla stopped pushing their headers since they were basically useless. Shiv's dyno-ing came up with really wierd results - +15 hp for the intake and another +5 for the exhaust... Maybe that indicates the bottleneck, post-engine, is at the headers or the cats? Or maybe that indicates that the headers, cats, and exhaust are almost correctly sized.

As for a change in the fit, I don't think there is anything different from '99 to '00 on that side of the engine, so it should fit.

I think.

Joel

Joel,

Your definanlty on to something concerning the "bottleneck" in our exhaust. I think the bottleneck in our exhaust is at the cats. Has anyone replaced their cats with higher flowing or larger diameter pipe? I have wondered how much, if at all, power would be gained getting rid of the stock cats. The turbo guys open there exhaust a bunch. I would guess for a NA motor the largest you would want to go would be 2.25", cats included. Anyone else thought about this?

josh

I just ditched the cats, simple solution. But I am also turboed so I guess that doesn't count. Would removing cats all together improve performance on a NA car? I assume it would if you were running an EMS, or maybe some ECu band aids (SFC,ITC?). I can't be sure- My NA tuning knowledge is stricly in carburated 2 and 4 stroke motorcycle engines, where EMS and cats don't apply. Any thoughts?
Arik

Will the first cat be hard to get rid of since it is at an angle?

Stromung sells a "Race Only" pipe that replaces the piece that has the two cats with one (high flow?) cat. it's around $125 or so, can't remember exactly.

"Shiv's dyno-ing came up with really wierd results - +15 hp for the intake and another +5 for the exhaust... Maybe that indicates the bottleneck, post-engine, is at the headers or the cats? Or maybe that indicates that the headers, cats, and exhaust are almost correctly sized."

My guess is that the stock cat is very restrictive. No testing, just a hunch. It certainly looks terrible. After the intake and cat-back, I think a free flowing cat may be the way to go. I would love to test it. That said, I don't think anyone is going to find much hp in headers. At least not enough to justify its cost (in my opinion).

On the same note, I think it's funny that so many people regarded intakes as being pure "dress up" items. How did that rumor propogate?

Hey Arik,

If you ditched your cats, how are you passing CA smog checks?

~Garrick

Hello,

Shiv, I never thought intakes were "dress-up." But while balancing power and sound, it's kind of odd that a company like Subaru would kill 15 hp by using a restrictive intake. Yours is barely louder than stock since you have the stock airbox just without those resonator arms and the fender box. Before you say the cheap filter is the cause of the problem, they could have made the plastic box bigger and used a bigger cheap filter. Twice the size would have been twice the flow (so any increase in size would have flowed better and it sounds like they only needed 10% more flow (10% of 165 is 16 hp). There's plenty of room over the ABS in the corner.

The restrictive cat actually makes sense - they were trying to meet some emmsision requirement. The intake was just a silly mistake on their part?

Joel

Originally posted by shiv:
"Shiv's dyno-ing came up with really wierd results - +15 hp for the intake and another +5 for the exhaust... Maybe that indicates the bottleneck, post-engine, is at the headers or the cats? Or maybe that indicates that the headers, cats, and exhaust are almost correctly sized."

My guess is that the stock cat is very restrictive. No testing, just a hunch. It certainly looks terrible. After the intake and cat-back, I think a free flowing cat may be the way to go. I would love to test it. That said, I don't think anyone is going to find much hp in headers. At least not enough to justify its cost (in my opinion).

On the same note, I think it's funny that so many people regarded intakes as being pure "dress up" items. How did that rumor propogate?

SHIV TRY GETTING THE DIMENTIONS ON THE EXHAUST PIPE BECAUSE THERE IS A COMPANY called random technolagy that makes a high flow cat that is CARB legal and they can make a cat for our cars.

Garrick...Money, and connections. Don't believe the CARB hype, the system is still very corruptable. AWD Subaru's being dyno exempt makes it easier. My buddy and I actually wanted to see how much my car does pollute. My car passsed the sniff test, no cats and all (I couldn't believe it, and still don't understand it)The visual inspection is stupid. If it paases the dyno, and the sniff test, who the F&$k cares what it looks like under the hood?

If I get a test only notice, I'll buy a junker 98 and smog it. Then do a plate swap. One time I got stopped at an emissions checkpoint, the CHP guy was like "you need to get on this dyno". I said "AWD- Dyno exempt". He looked at book, and told me to go, but said "somethings fishy about this car.. I just know it". This checkpoint was at 9:00 AM on a Tuesday, they were stopping every other car. I feel this is stupid - It created a great deal of traffic congestion (more smog), and MANY people were late to work. I mean if I lost my job becaue of that, I would look for others with the same story, and consider doing some lobbying!

I mean if we really want to cut smog, we need to crack down on SUV's, Diesels, and pre 1973 smog -exempt vehicles. I was so pissed they did that..when I had my 69 camaro, the exemption year was '66. Basically the state of California, while creating tougher regs fo 2000 new vehicles. Allowed 8 more years of cars, to belch as much crap as they want out of there grossly oversized, undertuned engines. Think of all the cars from '66 to '73 - Basically the muscle car era. So you can only imagine what some shadetree is doing to his 'Ol Charger R/T. Just my take on the whole smog thing - Arik

I would be very interested in seeing a NA car with high flow cats or no cats. My local exhaust guy is willing to weld up a 'test' pipe that would have the O2 bungs, but no cats. THe check engine light would come on, but only because the second o2 sensor is seeing no signifigant change in the exhaust mixture. HMMM.

Shiv, did you get a chance to look at the HKS headers they made for their turbo car? Bigger piping and heat treated. Looks nice, but was curious if you had an opinion on that car. With the turbo set up, do you feel the header is restrictive? or just the cats. You mention that bigger better headers will not yield that much more hp? How are you coming to that conclusion?

josh

To think this was just a borla question, but to stray a bit
I thought diesel engines burn cleaner than petrol? Maybe I was wrong but thats why I thought the VW diesel car was so environmental friendly. Feel free to make me look stupid.
But what affects your carb emission level? I want to know cuz I am doing a lot of mods and I don't want to fail the carb test.

I atcually erred, because I don't know anything about diesel impact on smog levels. I'm sure with the proper technology they can be very eco-friendly. Side note- Cool thing about Old VW Diesel Jetta's (A1's), is that they are smog exempt - thereby allowing you to put in a turboed 2.0 16v-very fast, reliable 260 h.p. http://208.9.184.110/NonCGI/smile.gif

I do know however, that when I ride my bicycle and I get whiff of that acrid black cloud, I get headaches and nausea. So I guess I just lumped diesels into my last post, because of the above reason. Might be why alot of new buses are going to methanol or natural gas. Just some thoughts, Later Arik

[This message has been edited by Tyrmeltr (edited January 25, 2000).]

Aphex, where did you see the "Race Only" swetup advertised?
mike

Rally123, try http://www.stromung.com/subaru/price1.htm
Good luck!

Actually, Diesel engines are a very different animal when it comes to being smogged.

Yes - the put out less of some pollutants than others, but where they really lag behind is particulates. (That black sooty cloud you see)

But particulates aren't really considered bad, even if they look bad and really add to the overall smog of a city.

Hello,

Danny, they also add to the Greenhouse effect. Particles sitting in the atmosphere block reflections from the ground, etc. They kind of work like the canopy of a greenhouse. That's a big reason why you never see environmentalists pushing for more diesel mass transportation. It's bad for the environment. But since we all like our cheap grocery store prices, the truckers unions have an easy time convincing politicians not to force diesel into compliance with more reasonable smog laws.

While diesel in and of itself doesn't have to pollute, the HUGE diesel exemption in the smog laws means that cars that don't have to pollute can get away with polluting a lot more than necessary. See almost every single old mercedes on the road - those cars can be tuned to burn clean, but they always have black soot on their backs and stink to high hell.

Joel

One of the things you are forgeting about "Particulates," they may cause a small protion of the smog, BUT they also settle out of the atmosphere... Unlike the hydrocarbons etc...

Mike

Here in PR many of us have replaced the factory cats for a generic one and a complete 2.25" pipes after the Borla Headers. The effect of the headers you can feel it after 4,000RPM specially in 3rd & 4th gears. Since there aren't that many options every little HP gain we can get we go for it. Only G-Tech to Dyno every part we can.
So far a '99 RS with JC Sports Intake, JC Sports 2.5" Catback with 2.25" resonator, JC Sports Torque chip, UR Pullie, Borla Headers and 2.25 high flow generic cat with 2.25" pipe G-Techs 138.5hp. One thing the G-Tech can't give you is when that hp is kicking in.
Now a 2K RS (Stock class race car)with Borla headers and high flow cat with 2.25" mid pipe and center pipe and a 2.0" Borla muffler G-techs exactly the same hp.
Both cars saw a drastic change in power once their header was replaced for the factory one although, the lower rpm (1000 - 2500) torque felt stronger.
We are still looking forward to test various 2.25" mufflers such as Stromung, Borla etc. to see if there is any sygnificant change.
We feel that the most significant bottleneck is at the intake manifold. If some of you may recall a message we posted some time ago a known Subaru aftermarket supplier (who cares who it is) sent his 2000 car to a Japan and they dynoed the motor at the flywheel and they were surpriced at the fact that it only yield 150hp. After many checks and rechecks the intake manifold was to be found responsable for such power loss.
So perhaps we should re-aim our efforts for hp and don't giveup. Engine internals could be left alone for now because there is much to be gained from Electronics, Intake and Exhaust...
Gracias,
Efrain N Alers
Nativo Performance

i heard that the new borla headers for the my00 give an increase of 16hp.

I used to run an AWD Honda that also had 2 cats. I burned one out and still passed smog with no problem. I imagine a single high flow cat on our cars would pass the sniff test pretty easily. As for the visual, I've found smog techs really don't pay that close attention. If it looks pretty stock, and passes the sniffer, you're good to go. I had a JDM engine in there as well, obviously the serial number on the chasis was different than the one on the engine, and he never even noticed!
I am real glad I live in Nor-Cal. We do not get hit with those BS roadside CARB tests. What a pain. Don't they have better things to be doing with our tax$'s?

With my Older Ford Lightning Truck, they didn't care if I had a FULL NOS system on it, as long as it passed the sniffer they didn't care!

Kyle

Shivs "cats" are at random technology right now, unless he asked for them back yet?

stewartg2000,

Your statement regarding the HP gains from the New Borla Headers... 16 Hp, someone is blowing smoke up your... well anyway...

I called Borla the first time I saw an add for the new and available Impreza Headers from Borla... Their own tech department said at best a 6-7 Hp gains could be expected... It isn't really aimed at being a single stand alone mod... They said it was aimed more at someone pushing the NA Tuneing edge... we'll have to see their are plenty of people here aiming for NA tuning...

Mike

Erm.. what are cats ? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

J.

Small Fuzzy things... not really good for anything other than getting rid of small vermin... But hell most of them aren't any good at that even... ;p

Catalytic Converters (sp???) they are the smog devices on your exhaust, designed to help to reduce the damaging emissions from your exhaust...

Mike

erm...

thanks for that http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

J.

Jay UK is just being a smart-a$$ because it's the biggest British craze since the Beatles to remove your cats.

Kyle

Guys:
Scott from SPO Motorsports just informed me that while his car was in Japan at the SYMS HQ his Legacy 2K motor (2.5L)was pulled and Dyno at the flywheel and they checked the Borla header and Catback with factory cats. The results were:
HP Gain @ RPM
1.91hp @ 3000
3.13hp @ 3500
8.51hp @ 4000
10.91hp @ 4500
10.00hp @ 5000
9.83hp @ 5500
Then its all down from there but at least it is clear that there is power to be gained with the Borla headers.
Of course if Borla was to built a header without the limitation of having to end at the current ending location, I am sure the could've come out with something better than what we currently have.
Like I said before we have G-Teched the Borla header at consistent 4-6hp gains. You could defenately feel it kicking in at about 3800RPM. And if you have the STI motor and Tranny mount there is very little rattling to be felt.
Later,
Nativo

I though they were called Cadillac converters. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

When I was last at Rallispec I saw that they had two test pipes sitting there. They looked stainless with a flex joint at the front. I don't know what the ID is or the price. Just an FYI for you N/A freaks.

Tony

Tyrmeltr

Since I own a pre-73 vehicle, I may as well chime in here.
While it is true that a pre-73 vehicle will produce more smog per liter displacement than it's modern fuel-injected counterpart, I don't think they are the problem in CA. Basically it all comes down to numbers. Just how many pre-73 vehicles do you think are still on the road? And, if they are on the road, how many are actually in poor running condition? The reason CA exempted pre-73 vehicles is two-fold. First, there just aren't that many cars left. Compared to the 1000's of new Honda's registered in CA each month, a few Dodge Chargers or Hemi-Cudas aren't going to cause much problem. Also, how much are these older cars actually driven? I drive my '72 Datsun 240Z only 6 months out of the year. And, even then, it's only about once or twice a week. Just how much pollutants do you think I'm spewing into the atmosphere? It makes much more sense for CA to address the problem by targeting the most commonly used vehicles. Those vehicles would be cars 25 years old or younger. Why? Because they constitute the majority of cars on the road today. Take a look at some CARB statistics and you'll see. I was looking at one chart, and they only smogged 3 1973 vehicles.

The CA smog website is here: http://www.smogcheck.org/smogweb/

In regards to some direct Sube content….
I think the asssumption that the cats are a major restriction is correct. Adding some high-flow units would undoubtudly help performance. Installing a header without correcting this is just a big mistake IMO. Sort of like having two pieces of a giant hose, connected by a straw. The way I look at it, if you're going to go through the trouble of designing high-flow cats, why not re-design the headers as well. Just my observation, but that funky angle where the header meets the 1st cat could use some work. A straighter design with two high-flow cats would be ideal IMO. If I had a tuner shop, I wouldn't offer anything except a completely redesigned exhaust system, from the headers back.

Dave
'00 2.5 RS Sedan
'72 Datsun 240Z


[This message has been edited by Catfish (edited June 28, 2000).]

When are those 2nd-generation headers due to come out? also, i know this is off topic , does anyone have any idea where i can get the gasket to replace the MY00 RS stock airbox filter?
justin

I don't think he hangs out here on the board, but a guy I met here in CT autocrossing has a pretty nice cat setup on his '99. His car is in the member's section (Nick Scaramuzzo) but unfortunately he doesn't have any pictures up.

Anyway, he worked with his local muffler shop to modify both the manifold/Y-pipe and the cat pipe. They cut off the ends of both "arms" of the Y-pipe, and reformed it so it looks more like a Y (rather than having that kinda funky U shape just before the cat pipe flange). So now the flange to the cat pipe runs straight across the car (90 deg off from the stock flange location). Then he has a single high flow cat on a nice straight pipe back to the cat-back exhaust. It has the O2 sensor bungs welded in, and seems to work OK as far as the ECU is concerned. He also has a nice dual tip muffler on it, but I don't remember what brand it is.

I'm sure I asked him how it performs, but it's been a while since I talked to him so I don't remember what he had to say. Hopefully he'll be at our next event (7/16) and I can talk to him some more.

Pat Olsen
'99 Legacy 2.5GT 5speed sedan

Edit: I've never seen it, so I could be wrong, but I'm guessing Stromung's 57mm Intermediate Pipe ($125) doesn't have a cat at all (hence the "Off road use only" warning). Perhaps the $159 Track Pipe has a cat on it?

[This message has been edited by Patrick Olsen (edited June 28, 2000).]

nativo,
scott from spo is the one that told me 16, maybe that is with the headers and catback exhaust.


patrick,
i believe the stromung pipe only removes 1 cat (we have two). i am just going to go to an exhaust shop after i get my headers and have them build me a 2.25" straight pipe (no cats).

stewartg2000:
I am pretty sure 16hp is what SYMS gained on their own SYMS header-Cat-Catback and is expected here sometime by fall.
We should be getting one of these prototypes so we can test them in our road race car.
Later,
Nativo