Does anyone know if the new WRX engine will have the following?
1) forged steel crankshaft
2) forged pistons
3) forged con rods

Bottom line; is this basically the same engine that the rally cars will use or is it completely different?

Well, I think I got a definitive answer, if anyone cares.
Trey Cobb (cobbtuning.com) has confirmed that the EJ20 engine uses a cast crank. That is very disappointing to me and indicates that Subaru has gone the cheapest route with this engine.
Cobb Tuning does offer 4340 billet steel cranks for the EJ20 in both standard and stroked (2.2L) versions.
I, for one, will install a new crank, rods and maybe pistons if I decide to squeeze more HP out of this engine. I prefer something that is over engineered with a big safety margin.
Again, it is disappointing that even NA engines from most other Japanese and German manufacturers use forged cranks, and Subaru uses a weaker cast crank in a "high performance" turbo motor.

Name another car that comes from the factory with a steel crank and forged rods for under $30k?

Subaru are doing with this car what they have always done with the WRX in other markets, build it down to a price.

The STi has always had the best of equipment.

If you're going to feel cheated, feel cheated we didn't get the STi from day one. Or that we didn't get the AVCS, wheels and brakes on the JDM model.

"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

Glenn

Um, the Type-R, and some of the older SE-R's http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Comes with Forged Internals, thats is....

[This message has been edited by Hucker (edited February 02, 2001).]

Didn't the latest Sport Compact Car mag confirm the WRX has the same engine internals as the STi? Wouldn't that make it a forged crank? Highly doubt forged pistons or con rods though.

Glenn,

Nissan's SR20DE found in a lowly 1991 Sentra SE-R has a forged crankshaft and full bearing beam main supports. The 2001 Sentra SE still lists for less than $18k.

Despite its problems, Nissan offers premier engine designs.

The absence of forged crankshafts on a performance engine makes me think twice about getting a new WRX. To me this underengineering represents the worst form of Subaru cost-cutting.

Dean

Ginseng, it said the US WRX has the same valvetrain as a JDM WRX.

Can someone kindly tell me what "forged" means? Thanks

I think it was in the new scc, that the motors were the same is the STI motors, but detuned do to lev standards. I have also read it somewhere on the net. If that being the case (would make sense, less tooling costs), then it would be a matter of getting ecu info so see the differences.

Nono, The STI motors are so different, they are a different motor. Differant block(Simi Closed deck), Forged pistons and rods, Hardend crand, Sodium filled valves, Intake manifold, AVCS(Like VTEC), Bigger turbo, bigger IC. Thats about it.

Ken

micah,
I detect some sarcasm in your post?
No, I never said the crank was the weak point or even prone to failure. Not in stock form, anyway. But the bottom end on this engine seems to be at or near its limit as determined by the factory. That's why, with the STI engine at 276hp they went with the good internals. If they felt the cast crank would work reliably in that engine I'm sure they would have retained it.
The 1.8 turbo engine in the Audi/VW is capable of at least 340 reliable HP with the stock internals. I'm sure Audi could have gotten by with a cast crank in the 150hp version if they had wanted to, just as Subaru can "get by" with one in the WRX. It is purely a cost saving measure. I would have gladly paid an additional $2K or $3K (or even more) for an engine that I would not have to worry about when I start increasing the boost and power. If I want to add those parts later it will cost me BIG bucks and will pretty much eliminate any warranty claims, should they occur. It really pisses me off, the more I think about it.

Ok, I don't know much about engine internals but why would subaru care if you can't tune the WRX up to 300+ hp? They brought the WRX over here to be a cheap AWD turbo car. About a year and a half ago the people on this board were pleading Subaru to bring a turbo impreza over here and WOW, they did. It is an impresive car and quite a value for what you are getting. Now everyone is crying that it is not as good as the STI or you can do THIS to an Audi but not a subaru. If you want a faster WRX just wait a few years to see if they bring the STI over here.

This car has better power to weight than the S4!!! A 24k WRX can and will beat the piss out of a 40k car!! (stock that is) Man that is going to be fun pissing off the rich guys with their S4's. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif

Ya, I am kinda disappointed that you can't get too crazy with the hp, but I don't need to go that fast. Most of my friends already are saying I am crazy because my Legacy GT is already pretty fast. But with 100lbs less and 40 more hp it is going to be so much better!

I guess I am in a bad mood or something today. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

im sorry, if u think the wrx will be faster than a s4 then u really got some problems. Ok it does have a better power to weight ratio, but the s4 with its 2 small turbos has a much better power range and it dosent have to wait untill 3300 rpm to kick in. When i read scc i was kinda distrought about getting a new wrx. With that 3300 rpm worth of turbo lag, this car will get beat crusing aorund town. Take for instance. The Se-r v-spec with 180 180 hp and tq, and weighing only 2700 has a power to weight ratio of 15lb per hp with a much flatter tq curve. Plus the nissan engine has vvt and that little 2.5l engine is shot pined. bulletproof. Im am sure that the ser will give any wrx a run for its money around town and im pretty sure at speed, the ser will probably beat the wrx. The wrx is notorious for slow 50-70 mph passes. But for the money the wrx is a great buy. I just wish that subaru wouldnt have screwed us on alot of things. As for me i canceled my order for a wrx and am waiting untill next year to see if subaru makes the changes we all want and also to see the new maxima se-r 285hp and sentra se-r specs. I have a sneaky feeling that i am going to buy the maxima over the subaru. Better looking, more room, better engine. Although i really wanted awd. Just have to see

harrydog - yes, little sarcasm... little engineer defensiveness! Yes, the forged crank would be nice and Suby did see fit to put it in my SVX motor which is certainly far less stressed (hp/liter) than the WRX motor in stock form. Gotta cut corners somewhere to make a 230 hp AWD car for 25k though! As long as somebody comes out with an aftermarket forged crank it should be all good. I definitely agree with your points though. Now I certainly can't say the same for

TunerENT: "u" can go from 0 to 60 in the WRX in 5.5 seconds according to those guys at GRM; that's the same time it takes "u" to go to 60 in an s4. vvt and shot "pined" engine aside, 15 lb/hp in the Nissan doesn't beat 13.some lb/hp in the Subie. 0-60 is the worst measure for a turbo car as it starts with the turbo unspooled and the WRX still turns in Z28-range times. So in the much better scenario of "cruising around town" 'u" won't get beat by too many "peeps". I don't know how you drive but I think for most sport compact drivers 3300 is not too far away at any time.

Subaru didn't screw us on anything, unless you can produce another import, AWD or not, that goes to 60 in 5.5 and goes for $25k very nicely equipped. Add the AWD and it's a pretty nice package for the price.

"U" probably shouldn't be so quick to tell people they have problems; stick to reading SCC.

cheers
mbs

How does Cobb Tuning know already?

Micah,

A forged crank in a turbocharged, high performance engine would be more than "nice."
IMO, it's mandatory in a modern engine.

Can you name ANY other modern, high performance automobile without a forged crankshaft?

"Gotta cut corners somewhere..."

What?? Sacrifice engine durablity and longevity? At what price? What message is Subaru telling it's customers?

Subaru's competitors certainly don't skimp on the good stuff. Nissan's QR engine in the new SE-R is going to have variable valve timing, a forged and micropolished crankshaft and self-adjusting hydraulic valves.

Dean

Well, the WRX makes max boost (not CFM) at <= 3,000 RPM. So I don't see why you're worried about SCC 3,300 figure for it "getting going".

Glenn

I think we need more verification of this before jumping to conclusions. What does the Euro and Australian versions of the WRX have? I can't imagine them have forged and we get cast cranks. It just doesn't make any sense. I'd be very surprised if Subaru offers forged wheels but not a forged crank??????

Yea the WRX will be faster than the S4. Straight line acceleratoin will be about the same, but the WRX will easily be the fastest in the turns.

And about the crankshaft. Like micah was pointing out, the H engine layout doesn't impose stress on the crankshaft like V and inline engines do. XT6wagon was saying in another thread that he has never heard of a subaru H engine breaking a crank. Its really short and has no weak bearing caps to let the crank flex. The crank shouldn't matter to very many of you. It would only become an issue if you were pushing some serious HP. Plus there are other things that will need to be replaced at lower HP before you get to the point of worrying about the crank(tranny,maybe the diffs,cluch,turbo,ic,etc). So unless your planning on investing a lot of money into your car and going for very high HP, you shouldn't worry.

[This message has been edited by Eby (edited February 02, 2001).]

Glenn,

The WRX may make max boost below 3k rpm, but that doesn't mean there isn't noticeable turbo lag. According to Subaru's own sales brochure, max torque is at 4000 rpm.

Every major auto magazine has commented on the turbo lag:

"Below 3000 rpm, the 2.0 liter is dead,..."
(Automobile, March 2001)

"Below 3000 rpm, the engine is weak-kneed, and the turbo lag is noticeable."
(Car and Driver, Feb 2001)

I don't think that this is necessarily something that would prevent me from enjoying the car. I grew up learning all about turbo lag in my 1989 Mitsubishi Mirage Turbo (appx 140hp). However, it's a bit of a stretch to claim that the WRX is going to have a lot of low end grunt.

Dean

How come no where else in the world is the nissan se-R a high performance car? The WRX is the BASE model subaru performance car in the rest of the world only here is it the best you can get (for now). Also subarus do have veriable valve timing but not here (yet). They are probably testing the waters first with the base WRX then will bring the good stuff after a few years when they see a demand for more performance.

This is a big step for SOA. they didn't know what kind of demand they were going to get so why put too much into a car that nobody will buy. Nissan on the other hand knows people will buy the se-R and can afford to do that stuff. The se-R doesn't have AWD which makes the car cost more. If subaru were only FWD it would be easier for them to put all of that stuff in.

Was it Car magazine that said the Subaru WRX was the "Car of the decade"? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Turbo lag below 3000 rpm's? That's nothing, its got a 7000rpm redline. It will be very easy to stay above 3000 rpms and on boost.

>Can someone kindly tell me what "forged" means? Thanks<

Think 'stamping'. Basically 2 types of forging, hot and cold. Hot (most common and cheaper form) happens when the metal being used is heated almost to the point of melting and then is stamped/squeezed/pressed into the desired form using a hydraulic press. Cold forged is using metal that's, uh, room temp, and then doing the above. Cold forged is stronger, but due to the added wear and tear on the equipment, a lot more $$$$$.

Since I'm at it, cast means molten/liquid metal is poured into a mold and then allowed to cool into the desired shape.

Most if not all Hondas have forged cranks. Civics, Accords, you name it. Most if not all VW's have forged cranks. VR6 engine in Golf and Jetta...forged crank and rods. The 1.8T motor in the same vehicles...forged again.
And they are all, under $30K.
By the way, cold forging is actually done at quite high temperatures...cooler than hot forged but still WAY beyond room temp.
Say what you will, believe what you want, but a cast crank in this type of vehicle is inexcusable in my opinion.

(edit) More on forged vs cast for anyone who doesn't know. Forging creates a denser and more uniform grain structure than cast. This translates into a much stronger piece. A forged crank also has the ability to flex slightly under extreme loads. This becomes more and more important the higher the rpm and the more stress the crank is subjected to as is the case when boosting the power in a turbo engine. A cast crank is much more brittle and will not flex much but will actually crack if stressed too much.

[This message has been edited by harrydog (edited February 02, 2001).]

So the crank has proven to be a weak point in built versions of this engine?

Obviously it has or there would be no cause to call it underengineered. How frequent are these failures? At what HP levels do they start to occur?

You know, I almost would have thought a cast crank would be fine for this application. I mean, I would have thought that the loads on the crank in a horizontally opposed engine would be way different than in the inline engines and V engines that everyone else mentioned. Also I would think the crank would be far shorter between bearings (and thus less bending stress) in an H-4. But I'm obviously way off base here if these things have been failing.

D*mn Subaru engineers.

mbs

[This message has been edited by micah (edited February 02, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by micah (edited February 02, 2001).]

Enough about the forged vs. cast crank! Is anyone thinking of the design? There are so many other factors in whether a high output engine is reliable. There have been many engine designs that have used nodular cast cranks under high horsepower applications. Just a couple of good examples would be Chevrolet and Pontiac V-8s. Pontiac's V-8 series HO engines all used nodular iron cranks with dogged reliability including race duty. The shortness of the Subaru crank and the engine and bearing design definitely ensure the longevity of the crank - just like Eby said. You also have to consider harmonic balance, oiling, stroke, max rpm, valvetrain limits, and many other factors when making a determination of whether a crankshaft will fail. It's not just about material. Sure, forged steel is better than nodular iron, but that doesn't mean that the EJ20 crank is not suitable for reliable 280 hp service. People are making judgements about this engine before it can even be proven!

Punk

C/D is full of *****. Period.

And I am not sure that they even employ journalists at Automobile.

The car definitely has VERY little lag. If anything, I think they've strangled the boost a bit too much at high RPM.

Seems very punchy of the line, seems much more linear like a light pressure turbo (explanation: smaller turbo but still high boost at low RPM)

If anything it lacks the higher RPM punch of the previous motor. It still feels fast, but you don't feel a huge increase in power.

Also of interest is several "journalists" have commented that the US car is much quicker and responsive than the UK/Australian cars.

Glenn

punksrs and eby - Yeah, you guys did a better job of stating exactly what I was trying to say. Without any actual experience with broken cranks how can people say that a cast crank is underengineered? I just think people have no basis for saying that. There aren't necessarily and good comparisons to other engines because it's h-opposed.

(Yes, the Boxster has a forged crank... I'm sorry to say it people but were talking about a $45k Porsche vs. a $25k Subaru)

cheers
mbs

Ya Glenn, I don't like how they are bleeding off pressure at higher RPM's but someone from the UK posted that all you have to do is lift up on the accelerator then punch it again and you will get max boost. Is that true?

Journos that complain about the WRX being "weak-kneed" and slow-to-spool under 3k RPMS obviously don't know how to launch an AWD Turbocar. Sure, launch at 3k revs, shift to first and the revs are going to drop and the turbo will take awhile to spool... on your way to the GROCERY STORE. But if you're going to LAUNCH the car, a clutch-drop at 4500+ RPMs will give you a holeshot that'll put supercars to shame, and the turbo will be virtually instant on.

Speaking from experience, an ex-DSMr,
ConeMasher

I think this discussion is pretty rediculous, considering nobody really knows except SOA. You are telling me that Cobb already has a new EJ20 engine that they've torn into? I HIGHLY doubt it.

Speaking from experience.. like Glenn said..there is very little lag..hardly noticable..the lag is only evident when you get lazy with the gears, ie being in the wrong gear. If you go down a gear, the rpms are kept up, boost is kept up, thus no lag. Just remember guys(and gals) it won't drive itself..it needs to be driven and driven properly.. You need to understand what the car is capable of then drive it accordingly. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

WRXRob has a good point; how do we know for sure that Cobb Tuning knows what they're talking about? I tend to think they probably do, but who knows. As I said before, SOA has told me that the crank is forged steel, but their credibility was damaged when they also told me the pistons were forged steel. I hope that some of you will email SOA as I did and request to know for sure. I really hope that Cobb is wrong.
PunksRS, yes those old Chevrolet and Pontiac muscle cars had cast cranks, but they weren't spinning high rpm's. There were other muscle cars of the day that did have forged cranks. Today, Chevrolet still uses a cast iron crank in the Camaro/Corvette engine. But Lingenfelter and others offer forged cranks for anyone building a higher output engine. Todays Mustang V8's have very strong bottom ends which use forged cranks. When the ford aftermarket tuners start adding big hp to these engines, there is no need to change out the crank. Just a difference in philosophy between manufacturers I guess.
Please, WRITE TO SOA so this issue can be put to bed once and for all. If it turns out that it is definitely a cast crank, we will all live with it. If it's really forged, then some of us will be much happier!!!

[This message has been edited by harrydog (edited February 03, 2001).]

One more thing to ponder. The new 6 cylinder Outbacks have forged cranks.

Outback = 6 cylinders-3.0 liters-212hp-forged
WRX = 4 cylinders-2.0 liters-227hp-cast?

Doesn't make sense so maybe it is a forged crank. Maybe we'll never know.

"Gotta cut corners somewhere..."

"What?? Sacrifice engine durablity and longevity? At what price? What message is Subaru telling it's customers?"

Um, the same message they've been telling everyone else, cast crank and all, for the last eight years?

Of course I find it difficuilt to believe that mean old Subaru chuckles to itself in its high chair while it screws over the US buying public in a wanton, premeditated fashion. AND all this before anyone, bar the press, has even driven the car, and before it's even gone on sale. I appreciate that the American market is extremely demanding. But can't you look at the experience and track record of Subaru's WRX motor outside in other markets where the car has already been sold?

If it really does wind you up into something of a frenzy, that Subaru has shafted you good and proper with a cheap old cast crank - where a rival may or may not have a forged crank - then please, do feel free to buy another car.

You guys are a trip. If you don't buy a WRX because of the makeup of the crank, then you are a fool. Actually, I take that back. The more of them that sit at dealerships, the better a deal I will be able to get.. Yeah.. Fvck the WRX, Yeah!! Damn Cast crank! The WRX sucks, yeah thats it!

Get a life, and find something better to worry about. You'll get your warranty just like the rest of us.

If your woried about getting into trouble with your boost controller and snapping a crank, then upgrade it. Subaru built our rex to handle 227 hp and if you choose to up the boost for more power, then you will just have to take care of that crank.

I am happy that the new WRX is 23995. I think Subaru found the perfect balance between features and price. I wouldn't have 'em change a thing, and they wouldn't, without a price hike.

ok..here's what I think.. all this talk etc etc etc is speculation right? I mean noone has actually bought one and tore the engine apart right? So..why don't you all wait till someone opens one up and either says it's cast or forged? Those who wouldn't buy one cause it's cast will then be happy, and those who couldn't care less wouldn't care less.

So tell me why we are complaining again.
The WRX is going to be the fastest thing on 4 wheels (AWD)http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif for under 30k.

Any one that complains about this is 1 can short of a 6 pack if you know what I mean.
Besides the Wrx will spank the doors off any thing is the same range and class. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

As far as the crank goes no body at SOA has confermed weather it is (cast or forged)and since nobody has opened one up yet I find it hard to belive any rumor.http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif

you know, a cast crank is not necessarily a bad thing. processes are continually evolving. i have seen some incredible forgings and i have also seen some pretty crappy ones. likewise, i have seen some incredible castings. how about the titanium castings for the 'Big Bertha' Callaway golf club? an absolutely beautiful piece of work, and we are talking about .090" thick walls.

so before you bash a cast crank, why don't you ask about the yield strength and material composition. it could be a matrix. it could be a new process. in the engineering world we are starting to see a lot of hybrid processes that provide excellent cost savings benefits and/or material strengths that in the past were unheard of.

i just learned about 5P/16 thread profile that provide 20-30% more load capacity. just an example.

-olaf