Coming soon, see below... First, I gotta say I'm having fun here at JC Sports. Their office neighbors had a block party tongiht and we got free burgers and beer!

Then I got a test drive in a 2.2L 15psi turbo wagon tonight, running low comp pistons, water/air intercooler, AFC, Boost controller and two extra fuel injectors in the throttle body with their own controller (like the HKS turbo demo) and it was awesome! This car does mid 14 sec qtr mile times at 6,000 feet altitude = mid 13's sealevel. It was well behaved and had a very tractable engine for daily driving. So, the extra injector's do work with the stock ECU using the extra controller. Good job!

And, Joe Cox (JC) loaned me his 7-8 psi turbo automatic to get to my mom-in-law's house tonight, while my car is apart at the shop. This used to be mjos's car before he got an S4. It pulls very nice, but was not as scarey as the 15 psi 2.2 was! I'd be happy to own this car, automatic and all. And, this is the same turbo automatic that I rode in at an autocross last summer in which I complained was too slow off the line - but with intercooler and other goodies it is great.

As for my car, we are doing a stage I now, not the basic kit http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

We have the disassembly instructions and pictures for the engine compartment done. Tomorrow we will cover the disassembly and removal of parts under the car (text and photos), then we will document the install of everything. That will be the most time comsuming part of the entire writeup of the instructions for the group buy kits. After the install, we will dump all the digital pictures into my laptop, and finish the final draft of the instructions there. These instructions will be made available as a PDF file when we are done, and printed to send out with the turbo kits. It will be a large file though, as I am trying to take a picture of anything we touch with a tool!

The parts that I have added to my purchase to upgrade to a stage I, which were not in the group buy are AFC, water spray onto the intercooler with larger intercooler, Boost gauge, EGT gauge and 2.5" catback. Since I have a MY00, we can't do water injection because the MAP sensor will rust! So, we are upgrading to a 6x18 intercooler and using the water spray onto the outside of the intercooler, instead of inside the intake with the air charge.

I did all this so my high compression MY2000 would survive 7 psi at sea-level should I ever drive it down there. Okay, okay... So I did it because I am now addicted to more POWER! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Once the install is done tomorrow PM, we will test and tune with the AFC. All in all, this is a good trip so far...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

I can't wait to hear the results of this, Keep me and everyone informed.
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman

If you would sir, Post a few pics to tide us over...........

I have about 60 megapixel snapshots that have to be resized and cropped, but will have something for you all after that. We still have to finish up the install tonight.

Documenting every step is stretching a 5-8 hour install into a 20 hour job... Looking good though, especially my one peice stainless steel exhaust!

And, we made up an included new bracket for mounting the cruise control (CC) in front of the ABS, and they are planning an OPTIONAL extension cable for the CC wiring, in case you don't want to cut the wires to your CC to lengthen them. They haven't set a price on this option yet, but it shouldn't be too expensive...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 15, 2000).]

Damn, no pics for now, and I spent hours relocating my CC to the same spot and making up my own bracket when I could have waited a week. So, since you are the reporter on the scene how are the kits looking? Are they waiting on any one part in particular or is everything yet to be done? Where are we at on this?

I would love to see a "rough draft" this way we can ask questins that you could probably answer in the "final print" Thanks for the big effort on this!! Keep us updated on how your install/tuning is going! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Hello,

Larry, just a quick note - a mid 14 car at altitude running 15 psi is a low-to-mid 14 car at sea level. Turbos compensate for altitude, so I'd guess a 14.5 goes down to a 14.3 or so. Aside from that, kewl deal http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif I'm eager to see the final post.

Joel

(LONG)

Okay, the car is done, and the instructions total 10 full pages and 160 steps in MS Word, before adding the 143 pictures we took! Some of the steps are actually 2-3 steps combined. I tried to take a digital shot of the car every time we touched it with a tool.

Let me start by saying this is not going to be a job for beginners. I especially have no desire to ever do this again! I tried to keep the instructions in layman's terms when possible. If you can afford it, give the instructions to your favorite mechanic along with a blank check and the parts, and give him a couple of days with it.

Joe Cox (JC) has a copy of the instructions that John and I created, and he is going to review the first draft and email me any corrections back to me. I did read back every step to John as we did it, but we both still could have missed something. Sometimes just picking the right description of the location of a part was a big challenge. After his editing is done, I will add the pictures and create the final PDF file. Until then I am not at liberty to ditribute intructions prematurely. They'd be all over the internet before we have any corrections. Sorry.

The one thing we don't have pictures of, but have an EXCELLENT description of, is the actual connection of the wiring of the boost control chip for MY00 so they can run more than 3psi. The description is more than enough to do this with ease, and we do have pictures of everything else like getting to the ECU, disconnecting it and replacing it. They had already tapped into the ECU for the AFC and a few other things, and it was too difficult to single out the wires. I will hopefully be finished editing the photos (resizing and cropping) by the end of the week, and maybe try to add in an arrow pointing to the item we are discussing in each step if I can figure that out, etc... Joel had a cardboard pointing arrow with yellow tape on it that we didn't know about till almost the end of the install! Bummer...

Anyway, this was basicaly a prototype of the MY00 GB kit, and we will have to add in the instructions for the MAF for the older models. Several things dragged the install out over Friday evening, two days and one all nighter last night (done at 6:00am today). One was that Joel Cox, the father of Joe and John in this family operated business, wanted to perfect the kit and try some new designs on the turbo inlet and vaccum chamber. Another was that I also did some extra stuff to the car which is not included in the GB kit. Then there was the time lost everytime they were ready to install or remove something and I was trying to get the instructions typed up on the previous step before proceeding. And, they have been so busy this week that a few parts sold out this week and we had to run around to get a few missing parts (this will improve now that Joe is full time). They are keying in inventory into a new database program with reminders to re-order. To make a long story short, we ran out of time for the optional intercooler sprayer (parts were ready) and the optional RRFPR (part not in).

Since I am running 7 psi on a high compression MY00, we have an optional fuel pressure regulator installed and set at about 45 psi until my RRFPR arrives next week, and I have an AFC to tune the EGT's as well (with both a boost gauge and EGT gauge hidden in the closed compartment where a gauge pod would usually go). We also have a larger IC and a one piece stainless steel 2.5" one-off custom exhaust, using an Aerospeed "bomb" N1 clone with smaller 4" tip.

But, the tuning isn't done yet. We just plain ran out of time this morning. It fired up first try, and the ECU learned to idle smooth within 5 minutes. No leaks or anything. We tried the car with fuel pressure regulator at 40 psi per the gauge on the regulator, (but would really like a real fuel pressure and oil pressure gauge in the dash soon). We took it for a few runs and it ran great at 7psi right off that bat!

Then we started to screw it up http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif We'd richen it up with the AFC over a few runs till we were up to +20%, and still weren't bogging down as too rich yet. EGT's were staying 1,200 - 1,250 which were perfect. And, the car would pull nicely to redline, with a nice kick from 3,300 to 6,000 rpm. But, John and I wanted to tune for the most fuel and power that we could, before bogging down too rich or having EGT's go too low. At that point, we would just back down the AFC settings or fuel pressure.

Basically, we could have let it alone as it was the first test drive! But, we went back to JC Sports and turned up fuel pressure to 60 psi, and tried to tune with the AFC and just made it worse. We planned to lean it out at idle because of the high fuel pressures, but it was bogging down of idle and then again at 5,200 rpm in 1st, but waiting till 5,500 rpm in the rest of the gears to bog down. We kept dropping the AFC from the from the +20%, since fuel pressure was much higher, going lower and lower on the enrichment without helping the bogging. After the third run we triggered a check engine light http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/confused.gif

Figuring it was related to the 60 psi fuel pressures or something, we went back to the shop, and noticed it had a loping idle. Unfortunately, I barely had time to have them hook up the laptop and check the OBDII code - an eroneous low manifold pressure warneing! Whew, nothing serious. So, we turned down the fuel pressure to about 45 this time, just a little higher than the first runs. Then he set the AFC for only about 9% enrichment at higher RPM's, with NO leanout at idle and the idle became mirror smooth again.

Since I only had two hours to drive back to Colorado Springs before my wife had to leave for work (I watch the kids), they sent me on my way with a promise to help me tune it later. The main precaution was to listen for detonation, and make no sudden moves on the gas pedal, "take it easy for now" was their motto.

If I had boost turned down to 5 psi, this probably wouldn't be neccessary, but nobody in Denver had a Blitz boost controller in stock http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/frown.gif I'm fairly sure I overheard that a different wastegate controller set for 5 psi is going out with the GB kits, while mine is 7 psi. But, these are easy to replace later, or even better you can buy a boost controller to manage it. I will get one with a low boost setting of 3 psi = sea-level power, and high setting of 6-7 psi.

So, right now the car runs great off idle all the way to 5,500 rpm in all gears, where above that it goes flat and bogs. But it has some detonation with sudden gas pedal movements in 4th and 5th gear only, but not when I roll on the throttle to full throttle slowly. Yep, 100 mph comes up faster in 5th now than in 4th gear before!

Like I said, with no AFC changes, and 40 psi on our first runs, it ran the best... So, I will see if Diz will help me tune the AFC and fuel pressure, since I can't make it back to JC Sports for a couple of weeks.

All in all this was hard work with great rewards to be seen soon. Now I kinda like the idea of KISS (keep it simple stupid) and running with the included fuel pump, 5 psi, and only adding a 2.5" exhaust and a RRFPR. It seems like that would do nicely. But, I already took the dive into an AFC, and now am looking at boostcontrol, maybe timing control, and a lot of work...

Too bad the TECII is over $2,000. I want something like that more than ever and might have the funds by next summer... JC SPorts has a "race setup" programable ECU for the race car they are building, and is supposed to have a programable ECU for the street in the next couple of months.

I will keep you posted on the status of the instructions and tuning, but with 5psi and fuel pump, there isn't going to be any tuning for you guys. But, wait, you'll get the itch more more juice...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

PS: It takes 3 psi of boost to regain lost power due to 6,00 feet of altitude. So, the 15 psi in the 2.2L low compression wagon I rode in is like a 12 psi turbo at sea-level. The turbo adds 15 psi to the 11.7 atmspeheric pressure we have up here - IT DOES NOT CORRECT FOR ALTITUDE TO 14.7 ON TOP OF THAT. I remember even Shiv confirming that!

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 16, 2000).]

Isn't 1200 for an EGT reading way too rich? I tune mine for 1400, & some DSM guys are running 1600.

PS: Puel pressure is 50, not 45! I really need to drop it to between 40 and 45, don't know how http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/frown.gif

Before:

http://www.imprezars.com/images/step001dcp00203.jpg

After:

http://www.imprezars.com/images/step160dcp00365.jpg

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 16, 2000).]

Looks Great!! Maybe you can help me out with a question I have. How big (diameter) is the air inlet to the turbo? I have a '99 and want to use the stock air box and am trying to figure out what size silicone hose I need to connect it all together. Is it 3" like the rest or smaller due to the smaller turbo? I greatly appreciate your help. And again, looks great, that IC is HUGE!! Already makes me jealous that I am getting the small one http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

Hello,

Larry, great description. I have to agree with RidinLow, it sounds like you're running way too rich. Check your tailpipe - it's probably black with soot. I know this sounds untechnical, but clean tip = okay or lean, orangish is very lean, black is rich http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

But, at 7 psi, you should be enriching a bit - but 20% and 60 psi, no wonder the car was stumbling.

As for the correction, a turbo car running 0 psi would have more power, at altitude, than an NA car. Why? Because the spring doesn't care much about outside pressure. A 0 psi spring would take 14.7 psi to push open. So a 0 psi turbo setup would vent only when the manifold pressure reached 14.7, which is where it's at for a sea-level NA car. There is some difference since a 0 psi spring likely takes slightly less than 14.7 psi to push open at altitude since the spring normally gets 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure helping it. But the difference is not as great as 3 psi. Anyway, 3 psi isn't worth 14.5-to-13.5 http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/tongue.gif

At any rate, good luck with the further tuning. Before you take what I said about the temperatures to heart, where is your temp gauge located? If it's far downstream, then your numbers will be lower for the same temp as if it's really close to the heads. But in gneneral, it sounds like you're WAY rich.

Joel

edit: Larry, nice pics. What is that large object right to the driver's side of the ABS in the after picture that's not there in the before picture? And BTW, what? No Larry's Intake on Larry's pre-turbo car? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Joel Gat, 1.8L (edited October 16, 2000).]

Joel, I KNOW I am rich. Yes the tail pipe is now sooty. The EGT probe is mounted on the up-pipe near the turbo. This is a consistent spot for JC Sports, so they can use EGT numbers the same with any of their kits. They want EGT's to be 1200 - 1350 under hard driving for safety, using that location.

We initially ran 40 psi fuel pressure and up to +20% with the AFC, not 60 psi fuel pressure. Then when we upped the pressure to 60 psi and were trying to lean it out with each subsequent run when we got the eroneous check engine light.

I messed up the AFC settings now, and it is worse http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/frown.gif I can't figure out this simple FPR and lower the pressure, so I'm forced to lean it out with the AFC now. We'll work on it a lot over the next few days.

The thingamajig next to the ABS is the fully operational cruise control unit!

The inlet is 2.5" due to the smaller turbo, and we use a 3" to 2.5" reducer for the air filter.

As for IC's, rumor has it that the kits might get a 5"x16" intercooler - they'll know soon!

And we took off the larry's cold air intake to show a stock engine compartment and document the install from the begining!

I will keep in mind what you said about the adjustment for sea-level, because I should only be running 5 psi without a J&S or ITC right now! That might change when I get my IC sprayer in two weeks. I have ordered a Blitz boost controller, and will set it for 2-3 psi low boost and 5-6 psi hi boost until I get more safehuards for the engine.

Take care,

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

What is JC charging for the IC, BOV and piping?

I'd love to add this to my 93 Legacy.

Why isn't the EGT probe mounted in the headers near the exhaust ports where it should be?

hey,to my knoledge and other tunners ive talked to over the past year,tha s-afc on a myoo or newer does no good at all.all tests done show that the ecu after a run or two sees what the afc is doing and recompencates for it buy putting the fuel right back where it started.
i tunned mine for almost 6 months,and never did the afc change anything.oh it did change one thing...the check engine light comes on. you will be fine with just a rrfpr,fuel pump,and 93octane at 7 psi. return the s-afc and get a j&s safeguard.

Like I said before, JC sports has all their EGT probes in this place, and they know they are looking for 1200 to 1350 from the cars with it there - so it is always the same number they shoot for on every car they tune.

If I moved the EGT to the headers near the exhaust port, when I report the numbers to them, it won't mean the same thing as with the other cars they've tuned. I have considered doing another probe, and having a switch installed to let me flip between the two probes. I would like to know where everyone else has the EGT probe, i.e. which header, how far from ports, and why this spot, etc.

As for the ECU re-setting itself back to the pre-AFC settings, I was told by several people that you only needed to reset the ECU once a month on the MY00 because of this. Anyone else have news about this issue.

It is making significantly more power, but we are still tuning it before I go for some real numbers. It feels like a V-8, and much better than my '93 Taurus SHO ever did. We're guessing 225 sea-level HP with my 7 psi.

Full boost is achieved at 2,500 rpm and I still have a tiny bit of detonation passing through 3,000 rpm, although it is very very minor and is only present for <1/3 second. Then there is a flat spot above 5,900 rpm which responds to more fuel pressure but that richens up idle too much (at 45 psi now). This is why we need a RRFPR...

Apparently with the MY00 you get an eroneous check engine light for "low manifold air pressure" when you tune an AFC to negative numbers (i.e. lean it out). So, running 50 psi fuel pressure get rid of the flat spot at 5,900 rpm was too much fuel pressure for the AFC to compensate for without getting the "CE" light.

In two weeks I get my "rising rate fuel pressure riser" and boost controller to tune it really well. Any remaining detonation should get better with my intercooler spray mist and some octane booster (we only get 91 octane up here). I hate to get a J&S safeguard which will over react to ping and retard 20 degrees all of a sudden - bad for power, but good for motor. I don't want an ITC since it only tunes "ignition retard vs rpm" and I want retard to be "boost" referenced.

For the million dollars, a TECII is the final answer... One experiment I will try tomorrow is to set the AFC to zero adjustment at low and hi throttle, and drive it around all day and see if the ECU learns a good fuel curve with 45 psi fuel pressure and no AFC activity.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Hello,

Just a quick bit on the exhaust temp sensor location. There is no way that JC or anyone else can determine what the appropriate exhaust temp should be at the pre-turbo location. To do so would require setting the engine up as is, outside of the car, with the headers in place and right at the exit spot of the header into the turbo, use some expensive gas chromatography or other spectral analysis equipment to determine the exact oxygen content of the air coming out right there. Actually, then, once that's done, everything would have to be moved back into the engine compartment and then a temp reading taken.

Only then would you be able to corrolate a temperature taken with an O2 presence and thus with what's going on in the engine. Good exhaust gas temps can be determined mathematically at the exhaust valve. The further you go away from the exhaust valve, the less you have any clue what the temp means. At the rate that heat is lost from the exhaust stream, you can bet that the heat-loss function is some kind of logrithmic or exponential scale.

So, even those measuring the temps an inch away from the head are still guessing at an approximate AF ratio. Their guesses, however, are exponentially or logrithmically (I don't know which) more accurate than a guess at the turbo.

All that being said, there are rough approximations that can be made and as long as you're shooting for a plus or minus 0.5 in your AF ratio, who cares, right? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

At the turbo is about as inaccurate as you want to get. It's still good enough for rough estimated tuning (which is what you're doing with piggybacks anyway), but not good enough for real accuracy.

Joel - not saying anything bad about this turbo setup and knowing that at least a dozen of you can name some drag racer or another who measures his exhaust temps 4 miles from the exhaust valve and is accurate to 1/10000000 of a degree. yeah, okay, don't tell me about it http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

I guess this is more of a question for JC - I've got an auto '95 Legacy LS 2.2, about how much would a turbo/IC kit run with and without install? It sounds like this work has been done at least a few times on the 2.2 - how durable is the engine in handling the stress of the turbo kit? How high a psi can your run on an auto 2.2?

Well, an EGT probe mount directly after the exhaust port is the standard location for tuning. Like Joel so eloquently stated, putting a probe anywhere else (especially near the turbo!) gets you fairly meaningless results.

But, if JC for some reason mounts their EGT probes in this position & has properly tuned their cars to 1200 degrees, then 1200 degrees for you should be ok too. However, I'd like to know how they found 1200 degrees to be optimal with this probe location.

Any more pics to tease us with? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

I do know that the company that re-builds the turbos says the optimal operating temperature for the turbo is 1,200 to 1,300 degrees. Maybe that is part of the answer.

This next part is in response to some private questions people have asked me. I am just using the included little black box for MY00 "boost fix" (with the torque chip circuit removed), included fuel pump, an optional AFC, and a borrowed fuel pressure regulator which is now dropped to 42 psi. My Bell 20007 RRFPR is not installed yet, since I just got it today. I have no ITC, intercooler water-spray or boost controller at this time either. Just the stock 6.5 psi wastegate, and with 1 psi loss across the IC, the motor is seeing just 5.5 psi.

Just for the heck of it, I turned the fuel pressure down to 42 from 45-50 yesterday, and zero'd out all the settings on the AFC so it wouldn't be used. I drove it around for about two hours this morning like this and it runs pretty well from idle to 5,500 rpm. It falls flat on it's face at 5,500 without the fuel pressure or AFC, but it does run acceptably well, and drivability is NOT a problem.

Obviously it also didn't pull as strong as it does with the AFC and more fuel pressure, but since I was using octane booster today there was no detonation, and the EGT's didn't climb at all - so not too lean. So, the kit will run decently without a rising rate fuel pressure riser (RRFPR) or an AFC, ITC and all that other junk; but I would at least get an RRFPR since it will help take advantage of the bigger fuel pump.

Then, with the lower fuel pressure and the AFC not being used, and having driving it all morning this way, I did two gentle qtr miles on the g-tech pro without slipping the clutch past 3,000 rpm on the launch. I should first mention that a stock RS up here at 6,000 feet will typically run about 18 seconds at Bandimere Speedway. 8Complex, you could attest to the fact that your car was a "dog" when you drove through here before.

My times dropped from 16.9/84 with intake as the only mod and empty gas tank to 15.7/91.5 with gentle launch and full gas tank - and I still have plenty of people telling me that a 7 psi turbo at this altitude is like a 4 psi turbo at sea-level. Ask anyone with a turbo if the power doesn't feel flat at high altitdes. We drop from 14.7 to 11.7 worth of air pressure at 6,000 feet. I believe the wastegate controller is looking at relative pressure and doing 6.5 psi above that, not absolute cylinder filling pressure and doing 9.5 psi - or my boost gauge would reflect this. I don't think Joel Gat has his info right, but...

And, remember, this was with NO tuning, a gentle launch and stock clutch. I'd like a real clutch I can trust for a hard launch. I know I could take a second off the times. I didn't get a chance to try a qtr mile with AFC and fuel pressure settings restored, since there were too many police cars out there. I don't have a good safe place for doing 0-100 right now, although there are plenty of places for doing 60-100 of course. Just nowhere to stop and start from a stand-still without being rear-ended or ticketed...

Obviously the RRFPR is gonna be the next most important part of this install, because the turbo clearly prefers 50 psi or more for top end, but not that much at idle. However, this test tells me that this kit works without an ITC and AFC and other gadgets (at least with a 6x18" IC and octane booster).

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Will there be an online version of this install manual with color photos? I assume that the printed version will be B&W for expense reasons.

Ok, but if 1200 degrees is optimal for this turbo, then your EGT gauge is being used to determine a maximum efficient boost setting for the turbo and not for monitoring how rich/lean your motor is running, right?

There will be an online COLOR copy of a turbo.pdf file on my website and www.jcsports.net, (http://www.jcsports.net,) which can be viewed online or downloaded.

I am trying to get my dad to print 20-30 copies in full color at his print shop for free as a favor, since I just mailed him a year supply ($1,900) of blood pressure medicine!

I have completed the written instructions, and am now in the process of editing the photos to paste into the written instructions using MS Word! I have to crop and resize pix, and have to add pointer arrows if I can...

For those of you DYING for pix, see the raw pix at http://www.imprezars.com/images/turboinstall for all 36mb of pictures!

Later,

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Dad sold the printing business and only does business cards, letterhead and stationery http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/frown.gif I know JC has access to a color laser, so we'll see about the printouts. We'll still have color pdf file instructions.

re: wastegate pressure. We need some tech people here!

I am saying that if sea-level atmospheric pressure is 14.7 and you add 7 psi, then you get 21.7 total.

But, at 6,000 feet with pressure = 11.7, when you add 7 psi you only get 18.7 total. This motor is now only making the same power as one at sea-level with 4 psi boost = 18% loss!

Joel is saying that when you add 7 psi at high altitude, that it really looks like 11.7 + 3 psi + 7 psi = 21.7 which I believe is wrong. But I feel the wastegate is not looking for 21.7 psi total, my understanding is that it is looking for 7 psi ABOVE the current reference pressure.

Right?

This is similar to how a 7 psi supercharger at sea-level only makes 4 psi at 6,000 feet. But, because a turbocharger compressor speed is NOT constant, they can adjust boost back to 7 psi. Just ask Rimmer - Brandon will confirm they offered to sell me a 6 psi supercharger for $2,600 without an IC, but told me the thing would climb to 9 psi at sea-level and destroy the motor without a new pulley and belt to correct the higher pressure!

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

RE: EGT's - There are many JC Sport turbo's in the area running A/F meters, like JC's and Mike Jerry. JC seems to have tuned his to proper rich/lean settings and he was running his EGT at the same location and temps as mine.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Thanks for the pics. I am trying to get any odd ball tools together that I don't have so I am ready to do this. By sorting through these pics I already know I need to round up: extensions, more deep wall sockets, and a few U joints for my sockets. This is more help than you think! The more I do now and the more I familiarize myself with it the better it will go. My personal plan is to pre assemble hoses and such when the kit arrives, remove the intake, relocate the CC, drain the oil and coolant, and drop the exhaust on the evening before I do the install. Then the next day I should be able to complete it without getting time eaten up by the prep work. There is nothing like getting to the actual meat of the project at 5PM

We did all the tear-down Friday night, and then did the install over the next two days, going slow to document it all.

I'm glad the pictures help. Realise that the pictures are in the order we did things, but not in the order they should have been. When something wasn't ready to go on the car, we moved onto something else to use the time we had, and went back. The written instructions are in the proper order, because I could jump in and add something and MS Word would re-number the items for me.

The biggest pain is that you will still be raising and lowering the car several times, because a few steps require accessing the car from below and above like the install of the down-pipe.

The hardest part is the removal and replacement of the new oil pan. I hated that! Be prepared to loosen motor mounts and jack up the engine. This would be a good time to replace them. I only had the STi tranny mount installed this time around...

Tonight I see that www.autocaresubaru.com (http://www.autocaresubaru.com) has a setup for using a modified oil drain plug for the turbo drain line to run into, so the pan doesn't have to be replaced with one that is tapped with a welded in drain. However, this would drain to the oil pan at the bottom, and the JC kit has the oil drain to the top of the pan. Wonder if it maters...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

WOW http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/eek.gif Thats a lot of really good pictures. I think I could almost do the install with just those!! I can't wait until there are instructions to go along with them. I think at that point, almost anyone can do the install. Great job and thanks!!

EDIT: Looking at all the intake pics, I am worried about the MAF guys. It doesn't look like there is much (or even enough) room for it. Eh, they have done this before and I'm sure it will work fine.

[This message has been edited by Steve E (edited October 18, 2000).]

Any chance of getting JC sports to include some sort of plug for the turbo oil line drain hole so that people can do this install in stages like oil pan one day The rest of the turbo install another day?
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman

yebokmj: I think if you read over the instructions enough time (almost memorize) you could knock this off is 6 hours. It looks pretty straight forward and the parts seem to fit perfectly. I think once you start, you won't want to stop!! The hardest part looks to be the oil pan and the vaccume/oil hoses (just confusiong due to quantity). Don't take my word for the install time though, I have not done it yet!(just estimating based on previous projects and perceived complexity) http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Steve E (edited October 18, 2000).]

Just put a condom over any holes, and take as long as you want!

hmmmm... That didnt sound right...

As for familarity speeding up the process, John Cox says he can do a kit in 5 hours with al the parts on hand and no phtographer. We took 36 hours of work to document the process. And, we do have to add instructions for those with an MAF. They use a smaller turbo inlet with diferent angles to make room, and often use the stock airbox with a cold air hose from stock airbox to bumper.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

No no... don't put a condom over it!

I think he's talking about running it with just the pan on, Larry. That'd be bad when the condom melts... lol

I'd say get one of those rubber corks or rubber plugs that you can find at the local hardware store.

I wonder if we should make sure JC Sports knows what we have... MAF or MAP. I'd be pretty upset if I was all set to do the install and found out I had a MAP kit!! Hhhmmm... Maybe I'll shoot them a quick PM.

Oh and BTW... all the parts in those pictures look great. Better quality than I was even hoping for. Now $2000 is not just a good deal, its a great deal. Now I really can't wait!!

[This message has been edited by Steve E (edited October 18, 2000).]

Well, we now know the kit at 7 psi makes lots of power (with AFC plus pressure regulator at 42psi) http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/cool.gif

That's because my clutch is slipping in 4th and 5th gear when boost kicks in. At 3,000 rpm at 65 in 5th, I hit the gas and the revs climb to 3,500 before the clutch grabs. I can even be cruising at 4,000rpm at 90mph and hit the gas and make it slip to 4,200.

Now I am getting an ACT clutch installed on the 28th. Kevin is such a good salesman that I had to take him up on the lightened flywheel while the clutch is out to save duplicating the installation costs. If I wasn't before, I am now officially in debt over this...

I guess it's time to jump into the classifieds section and hold a group buy on "Larry's cold air intakes" http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

PS: re: the previous condom statement I thought he wasn't gonna drive it with the new oil pan, and just wanted to keep spiders and stuff out of it.

For low throttle position: I am running +1 at 1k and 2k, +2 at 3K and 4K, +3 at 5K and 5.5K, and +4 at 6K and 6.5K - these are pure guesses, but throttle reposnse is fine.

For hi throttle position: +2 at 1K, +8 at 2K, +14 at 3K, +11 at 4K, +7 at 5K, and +5 above that. Pulls nice to between 5,500 and 5,800 rpm, and goes flat at 5,500 whether I lean it out more or richen it up more...

These numbers will change with the RRFPR that goes in 10/28/00 when I get the clutch install I think that will be the ticket, since Diz car has one and pulls to 6,250 strong. Interestingly, it pulls almost as well to 5,500 without the AFC being used, and without the RRFPR.

Don't even THINK about asking us to document a clutch install http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/eek.gif

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Good to hear tuning is going well. What do your AFC #'s look like? I got the 42 psi fuel, and am looking for some baseline numbers to start tuning with (when I get the kit of course http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif) Are you now running the RRFPR? How is it going above 5500 now, I know you had trouble up there before. Thanks for all the updates, I (and we) all appreciate it!


OH YA... do you think JC would be willing to put up with a clutch install documentation session? And you too? I just think it might be useful if you were up to it. Hmmm, I now remember Imprezer saying something about new clutch install instructions on the new site. I wonder if that is true?....
[This message has been edited by Steve E (edited October 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Steve E (edited October 18, 2000).]

HAHA... I guess you are still scarred from the turbo install http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/mad.gif just figured I'd ask since you seemed to do such a good job http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif. Anyway, what year is Diz's car? I wonder if your problem above 5500 is MY2000 related? It just seems funny that nothing you do helps. Maybe that RRFPR is the ticket. Do you know if Diz ever ran without one? I wonder what the deal is? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/confused.gif Thanks again, you are being a great help being the "pioneer" and all on this one!

How much diffrent do you think it will be from the T28 to the IHI turbo. Because you are running the T28, right.

I know the IHI will spool up quick, but is it going to run out of steam at like 5000rpms.

BTW, the wagon Larry rode in was running at 7 psi boost not 15! Just wanted to point that out to you guys!

Kevin

I am running IHI legacy turbo in my MY00, and Diz is running the smaller IHI loyale turbo in his MY99. He used to shift at 5,500 when all he had was the torque chip and fuel pump, but then he got the RRFPR and AFC and can pull to 6,200 nicely.

Remember, my car with 50 psi fuel pressure (and +20 enrichment) would pull to 6,000 fine, but low end was a little too rich. And leaning the low end out to negatve numbers using the AFC would trigger check engine light (a new feature of the MY00).

I'm pretty sure I would be fine without an AFC and just the RRFPR and fuel pump, and then just limiting the fuel pressure rise with boost to a lower max number than the 85 psi.

And yeah, the turbo install being stretched out from 6 hr to 36 hours of hands-on time scared me off from doing a clutch photo-shoot. Although I am even more afraid of what will happen to me if I suggest dragging out an 8 hour clutch job to three days, just to document the procedure - I'd be driven out of town in tar and feathers http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 19, 2000).]

Sounds good, its nice to have a good comparison between non-RRFPR and with. 85 psi is a LOT!! But, I guess if it gets the job done, and doesn't leak, its fine. I wonder if the '99's with the MAF can better compensate for higher pressures at idle, and will not trip the engine light if you lean it out with the AFC? I guess I will find out soon enough. I think I am going to start out with just a single rate FPR and if that doesn't work, just get the RRFPR. I think I found that it takes 80 psi of fuel pressure to run 215HP with the stock injectors at 80% duty cycle (from RC's formula's). I'd think you could push the injector limits at say 90-100% duty cycle at only 60 or 70 psi and still make out ok, as long as the car idled well. I guess I will find out soon enough!! (well, not really, tomorrow would be soon enough http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif)

Any more recent news?
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman

I have gone over the instructions for the install with cars using an MAF and will add them to my typed instructions. I am curently trying to add the pictures to the instructions, after editing them.

This is a bigger job than I thoght it would be! Wow! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/eek.gif

Larry

PS: John messed with the boost controller, and the wagon did run 7 psi at first, then 10 psi, then 15 psi. He did not abuse the car however. And, it ran a 14.0 sec qtr mile at 6,000 feet last weekend on 15 psi - which is the low 13's at sea-level (or still a low 14.0 if running 11-12 psi at sea-level).

Well I got my SAFC in, my Boost/vac guage is installed and the J&S is on order and should be here in a week. Kevin at JC told me in an email that the kits were on schedule and may even ship ahead of schedule. I would love to see it this week but at the very least seeing it on the 13th will be a relief.

i myself are waiting very impatiently also. but i haven't had time to get my parts installed and i am still waiting for my clutch my cobb dohc cams,second set of dohc heads and my bell 2005 rrfpr. i have waiting my boost vac gauge, an a/f meter, a fuel psi gauge, oil psi gauge exaust temp gauge. and my factory pod just need to track down a pillar mount. oh and i have my new intake manifold sitting in my cousins garage. i do have my sfc installed have had it in for a good 3 months or more
i wish i could get the ihi turbo itself early so i can have it hybrided because it probablly will never touch my car in its present state

I'm in the prosess of makeing a gauge pod, with 3 gauges.

so far I have got part numbers for the gauges i want.

auto meter 5703 boost, 5763 fuel pres., 5765 EGT, probe for EGT 5244.
This is around $400, so befor I order them what do you think.
If you guys have any other sugestion I'm all ears.

BTW I talked to dave at Rallispec about installing the kit. He said it's a go and give him a call when it comes in.

Bill,

Sounds like you are doing quite a bit of work. I strongly suggest that you send away the turbo to be hybrided before installation. There are really no drawbacks (maybe spools a couple of hundred rpms higher, but when you get full boost below 2500 who cares). With higher lift cams and head work, your engine is going to flow so freely that the small turbo just isn't going to be able to keep up at much more than 5 psi. And once you have your car all put together (like mine is), the last thing you are going to want to do is pull the turbo off and send it away.

Tim

I have the EGT and boost gauge in the "secret dash compartment", and the AFC in front of the shifter. See pix below.

http://www.imprezars.com/images/gaugeswide.jpg

The Bell 20007 RRFPR (similar to the 20005) goes in this weekend, along with fuel pressure gauge, Blitz turbo timer, and ACT clutch. I am still trying to decide how I am going to use a rich/lean gauge since I have a MY00 and am told I have to use the rear O2 sensor which may not be the correct results. I have schematics for building a couple different variations myself, so...

I think you guys are doing great preparing. Also make sure your exhaust is ready for the turbo.

The instructions are coming along nicely. I am done with the typed instructions, and I am about 1/3 of the way through editing, resizing, and adding pointers to the pictures (before I add them to the MS Word file). Once they are done, I will show the file to JC SPorts this weekend, and if approved will turn it into a PDF file and upload it to my website, and then to JC Sports web site. I will post a message here when they are up.

I did add the text instructions for MAF based Imprezas, but we don't have pix for that. I think the description is good enough to get it done.

Later,

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

I just ordered Omori guages from www.uprd.com. (http://www.uprd.com.) I'm getting the 45mm ones to fit in my guage pod...

I decided to get boost, EGT and oil pressure. Cost is about $370, but they have to order then from Japan...

Thought I'd post in case someone else wanted to check them out...

John

GROUP BUY INSTALL INSTRUCTIONS ARE DONE!

Simply visit the previous link I posted here ( for the mouse click impaired it's at http://www.imprezars.com/images/turboinstall ) then right click to download either the .pdf or .doc file!

This will give everyone TWO WEEKS to review the instructions and decide if you can handle it, or if you need a service technician to do. We still recommended having a qualified mechanic do the work and tuning if necessesary.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Very sweeet!! Great Job!! Now I wish I had a damned turbo... ugh...

Shawn

Is your oil pan in the picture considered round or square? I am still confused on this one. Also my understanding is since I have a 98 with 40k on it I am going to need ot purchase 3 gaskets for connection of the headers on both ends. Is this correct or are they included?
Thanks
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman

The oil pan in the picture is the rounded one, which means that the witdh at the bottom is less than the width of the pan when measured higher up.

This might become moot point since they are looking at possibly doing a banjo bolt type of fitting to the oil drain plug bolt, so that the oil pan doesn't have to be removed. This is only a little more expensive, and might become a definite thing if you contact tech@jcsports.net (Kevin). The oil pans are cheaper because they can modify used ones themselves.

The 2 gaskets from the headers to motor, 1 from headers to front of up-pipe, 1 between down-pipe and mid-pipe, and 1 between mid-pipe and muffler section are not included, but the gaskets for the turbo are. I'm sure you could contact Kevin at JC sports and get some if you feel you will need them, or get them at any local subaru dealer. I had 12K on my car, and the gaskets were like new!

One a side note, we got the RRFPR installed today, along with a new clutch and ACT pressure plate with 12lb flywheel, and SS brake lines. The motor revs up to 6,200 rpm now, when it would hit a wall at 5,500 rpm before. I highly recommend a rising rate fuel pressure riser (RRFPR) http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

We set the Bell 20007 RRFPR's maximum fuel pressure to just below where the motor bogs as too rich and so the AFC can be at zero at anyting above 5,000rpm (also watching EGT's). Idle fuel pressure is approx 35psi, and my next purchase will be a a Blitz FATT Turbo Timer with A/F meter to help tune air/fuel mixtures. And now that min/max fuel pressures are set, I can fine tune with the AFC for more mid-range kick - top end is tuned just right, but I know can go richer between 3,000 - 5,000 rpm.

I really like the way the RRFPR makes it run so much smoother all the way to redline. And, I'm sure I could really could do fine without the AFC and just using the optional RRFPR and included fuel pump. There is a road near JC Sports where we could do "test and tune" runs over a 1/4 mile. By the time we were done tuning I was having to hit the brakes at the end of this qtr mile road at 5,800rpm in 4th = 93mph, with gentle "roll on" launches. They say the 15 psi turbo wagon is usally doing about 105 at the same spot, and "Byron's" car reportedly does about 125mph at that spot!! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/eek.gif

The turbo wagon was scarey fast at 105 that night on that dark short bumpy road, so I'll pass on a ride in Byron's car - I'll trust Joel Gat when he says it's fast http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Anyway, I am so glad this job of writing up the turbo instal instructions is finished. It took 36 hours over 3 days to document a 6-8 hour turbo install with notes and camera, and then another 80 hours over two weeks to piece it all together, proofread and edit! I feel like final exams are over... http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/tongue.gif

The pdf file graphics are not as sharp as the MS Word file, and the pdf is 5mb vs 4mb for the Word file. So, I recommend downloading the Word file over the pdf.

Thanks!

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

EDIT: typos galore

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 28, 2000).]

I posed this same question to JC Sports but I wanted to throw it out here too. I would assume that the modified oil pan would have been more expensive than the banjo bolt drain and that there must be some reason not to use the bolt. Given that the toughest part of the install, not to mention 50% of the time involved, could be eliminated it is a very appealing option. ISR has them for $59 and If JC gives us that as an option instead of the oil pan I am sure it would be a steal for the convienence. Now why is this too good to be true..... Does it casue inadequite oil drainage, high/low oil pressure in the turbo?

im deffinitly interested in the banjo bolt oil drain.....

does it drain as well as the new pan?

I have the same question as above, are there any disadvatages to the Banjo bolt. I want the install to be easier but not at the exspense of a job done right. But the Banjo bolt other wise is deffinalty the way to go. Also thanks for answering all my questions for me.

I believe it still costs less to modify the used oil pans with a oil return pipe. I will have to defer the question about whether they both work as well to JC Sports.

The oil return pipe that they weld into the oil pan returns the oil to above the fluid level of oil in the pan, and the banjo bolt would return it to below the fluid level - but since the turbo is higher than either one, I don't think the turbo could/would ever siphon oil out of the oil pan, etc. The only thing I can see it doing is slightly increasing the oil pressure in the line by the weight of the oil above the Banjo bolt.

Let's see what JC Sports says. Worst case is they charge the difference in cost for the Banjo bolt setup.

Larry "was hoping for pats on the back for all the hard work doing instructions" Ganz

PS: you should PM JC Sports or email tech@jcsports.net or call 720-898-0948 about this.


[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 29, 2000).]

/me pats Larry on the back http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

35 pages!!! I can barely force myself to do my schoolwork, let alone do something like that out of the kindness of my heart...

I say we give a big round of e-applause for Larry's hard work!

I probably won't be going FI until after I finish college (I'm working full time and going to school full time, so I don't really have the kind of leftover time it would take to get it intalled, tuned properly, and maintained), but this document will definately come in handy if and when I go that route.

Thanks again!

Eric

Yes the instructions were superb and it will save hours being prepared and picking up all those little extras like an allen wrench to remove the oil/water plugs, I didn't have any that large etc.

And I am very interested in this banjo bolt option. Since the oil going into the turbo will be pressurized so will the output and it should enter the oil pan nicely. In looking over the instructions I know that for those of us without a lift using jack stands and a jack can turn an ordeal into a pleasant afternoon. Let's here what JCS has to say about the technical aspects of it. I have a feeling I will be ditching this oil pan ordeal.

Also ISR sells these so I am going to call them and get their input. If these have a clear history I am doing it one way or another.

[This message has been edited by Pipercub (edited October 29, 2000).]

I also want to thank Larry for his directions, for without them this would be a very questionable install for me. I have to do this install myself, not due to cost but because I enjoy working on my car. With out the directions alot of the joy could have been taken out of it. On the banjo bolt note, I am going to post the question about it in the forum and see if there is someone out there using this setup.
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman

Just wanted to send out another thanks and a pat-on-the-back. Job well done. This will help out a lot of people, not only in the GB, but probably for years to come. Great job!! (now all I need is the kit!!)

Thanks guys!

Larry

I have not even SEEN the how-to yet (still DLing it), but after watching RalliSpec spend 12+ hours on day one of installing my brothers Minnam Stage 2 kit (which was the first one they did, hence the super long install), I can appreciate anyone who documents this procedure. It's a LOT of work.

Heck, it took me another 6+ hours from start to finish to install the STi V5 dampers on my 99 2.5GT last Friday. And this was with me already putting in the H&R springs last year, so I knew what I was doing. I recommend not installing any suspension items alone...trying to get those lower bolts back into the bottom of the rear struts is a MAJOR pita. I had my body up against the wall, one foot on the brake caliper pressing with all my might, and then reach down (while trying to hold my leg stead) and see if the holes were lined up to push the bolt thru. Exhausting, and the wounds on my hands will be scars for life.

Anyway, even though I won't be using the turbo how-to, a HUGE thanks from me (and lagging.com). It's material like this that makes the Subie community strong.

Kevin

I would also like to thank Larry for his efforts in getting these install instructions documented. It clearly shows that the kit is indeed a 100% BOLT-ON kit!

Thanks Larry, Kevin@JCSports

Hey Kevin how about an update on the kits. There was mention of possibly a differant IC, and now the talk of the banjo bolt. Coulld you give you opion an any updates.
Thanks
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman

ATTN: DO NOT USE THE BANJO FITTING for the return line! This set-up will cause the oil drain line to "fill-up" with oil back into the turbo. Also, it will cause "foaming" since it comes in under the oil level and has to let the air bubbles escape to the top of the oil.

Kevin

There you go - Pimp-Sube is Kevin at JC Sports, so they discussed and rejected it. No banjo bolt fitting...

I had hypothesized it might increase pressure in the oil return line, and that would lead to backing up of the oil into the turbo. I was close.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

Larry ~~ You asked a question way back in this thread regarding boost levels at different altitudes. You were trying to equate 14.7psi at sea level to 11.7psi at 6000 feet (or whatever, close enough). Joel is right in that this makes a huge difference in NA applications. BUT, the wastegate pressure settings are done with a spring and therefore do not "reference" the current atmospheric condition. The spring resistance will remain constant.

Great job on the instructions and the pictures.

SteveS

Does anyone have the part numbers for the gaskets I will be needing for the install of the turbo?
Thanks
Joshua
MY98 RS
Subaru Salesman