Well, I posted my findings about turbo options for the discriminating Impreza owner, now here's my findings on strengthened gears for the Subaru Impreza RS (commonly referred to as WRX gears).

MRT - Middleton Rally Team. Sydney(???) Australia
MRT offers a 5 speed dogbox and a 5 speed helical cut gearbox for the Impreza. I'll focus on the dog box since for high output applications, the helical gearbox isn't recommended.
MRT's dogbox is, to paraphrase their words, guaranteed unbreakable, even if you drag race it or rally it. That's a big claim to make, but apparently there have been no breakages in Australia, and one breakage in the US that I can confirm personally.
The gears are 17MM wide, with a center to center measurement of 70MM between the input and output mainshafts. Pricing on this unit is still undetermined.

EDIT: After getting several different answers, I finally have a straight answer. Rally Knight apparently has not run any MRT gearsets in their cars. It would appear that the broken gears have all been BPM's.

Recently announced by ISR, they are now an authorized reseller for MRT products. I beleive Rallispec and Cobb Tuning may also carry these pieces, but am not totally sure.

BPM- Melbourne(??) Australia

BPM also offers synchromesh, half dog (dogs on 1st and 2nd) and full dog gearsets for the Subaru Impreza.
Shiv Pathak uses these on his Project Impreza, currently in the shop since after the installation of his half dog box, he broke 5th gear.

I have heard issues about BPM, in that they make their gears inordinately wide for extra strength, which requires a fair amount of machine work to be done to the transmission case to facilitate installation.

Here again, Rally Knight as well has run BPM dog gears in their cars, and have also broken them as well. The most recent episode was at the Ramada Express Rally on the weeekend of December 15th.

Several vendors carry these gears, ISR, B-Spec, Cobb Tuning and Rallispec come to mind.

Rally Knight- Upland, California

Rally Knight does not manufacture gears per se, but they have developed a modified 4EAT transmission application that can survive behind their rally car's prodigious torque, as it was just tested in the heat of battle at the previously mentioned Ramada Express Rally. Jon Ryther piloted the 4EAT equipped car, and experienced non transmission related failures that caused him to DNF on Saturday.

Of note, both for Impreza and SVX owners (who's cars share the same 4EAT as the Impreza) is the fact that not only has Rally Knight put together a trans capable of taking 500 lb/ft of torque, but they've also revers engineered the TCU to allow the torque bias to be reversed from the normal FWD biasing. So now, in lay terms, the 4EAT splits torque 10/90, and can be adjusted up to 50/50 with a cabin mounted dial, to suit the driver's preference. They are also working on a set of steering column mounted paddles to control the upshifting and downshifting of the trans when in manual mode. Price is not yet set, but anticipated to be near $4K or so.


Guard Gears - Honolulu HI: moving to Auburn CA in mid-2001

Paul Guard, founder of Guard Gears, has been making gears for high performance import applications for 10+ years. He started out fabricating gearsets for the air cooled VW race scene, for street, track and sand. Many of his gearboxes were bolted to 500HP VW dragsters, which seldom break gears. Moving out of VW gears in the late 80's, he began to focus on Porsche. Currently, Paul Guard supplies gears to many ALMS (American Le Mans Series) teams, including Alex Job, last year's GT3 champion, and #2 this season. Even Porsche themselves have ordered gears from Guard Gears, as they themselves don't currently produce low enough ratios for their own GT3R factory effort.

Paul is also VERY interested in tapping into the Japanese import market, as he sees a lot of new challenges to overcome. He currently makes gears for Honda drag applications, and has several Subaru's outfitted with dog gears already. These are running 17MM wide gears, but in my correspondence with him, he tells me that he's ready to step up with an even stronger gearset with 21MM wide gear faces. This is about the limit on width of a subaru gear before case machining becomes necessary. He also uses F1 gear material in all his gearsets, along with 4130 chromolly shift forks.
No prices have been set as yet, but Paul has stated that his prices will be very competitive with the competition's.
Guard Gears can also manufacture TB differentials for any application, given an open differential to use as a template for a particular application.

Quaiffe - London(???) England.

Quaiffe. When you think of limited slip differentials, Quaiffe is the first name to pop out. Their LSD's are, without a doubt, the benchmark by which others are judged. But they also advertise helical and dog gears for Impreza WRX's. Sounds like a match made in heaven. However, when you call up an authorized Quaiffe distributor to plunk down your hard earned cash for "indestructo" gears for your turbo monster, you're met with disappointment. Quaiffe, it seems, likes to advertise products that they don't yet sell, but are considering making before they actually produce them. They want to see what kind of response the market has before committing to producing any. So, alas, until they decide that it's worth their while, Quaiffe gears for the WRX will remain a distant dream.


[This message has been edited by Digital_Boy (edited January 03, 2001).]

How would one go about contacting Rally Knight?

Jon Ryther, aka Rally Knight is registered on the I Club, so you can PM him. I'll also PM you his email so you can write to him directly, since he hasn't had a lot of time to check the I club of late.

Possum Bourne Motorsports also sell harden gearsets. I'm not sure who are the actual manufactors, but I can say that they are a good gearset. Alot of Grp N. cars run these sets for about on average 15-20 full rallies. But most of the sets are close ratio sets. I have had a used set in my car for about a year now with numerous solo events doing 7000rpm launches and a full rallycross event recently and have had no problems yet.

But as with with these harden sets, from our experience, anything over 375hp or 360-ish ft/lb torqe is most likely the absolute limit for any of the harden syncro or dog set. It is more the shock loading from the torque that takes it toll on the gears. The only other tranny I know that can take more than 480 ft/lb torque is the Prodrive 6-speed dog box, which is esentally a Hewland gearbox. Hence, you be paying an arm and a leg.

this is a test I havea large reply but cant get it posted..is there a limit on words?
http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif!!

From Brett Middleton MRT http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

I really wish to clear up this whole gear set issue on what is used and what is run .
I am unaware of who Rally Knight is, however as far as I am concerned they are NOT running our dog gear set. (pleae contact me so we can help!!) They may however be running a HD synchro gear set that we offer and this is not sold with an unbreakable G'Tee like our new dog set
or they may be not using our gears at all..! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

MRT has now sold gear componants for several years, however we have resisted promoting parts for some time due to the lack of a supplier that can manuafcture a gear set that we can put our name to.
Other than the Prodive box that has been avaialble for a long time.

I am fully aware of the many brands that are sold around the world.
more...

I am not going to get into a flame war here, but to save the MRT name I want to be clear on what we offer and through who.

The Dog gear set, offered on http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/gearsets.htm is detailed there..with a full g'tee against breakage. We are the only team to offer this (I beleive anywhere in the world)
Recently fitted to aur rally car, tested also in a drag car as well as other rally cars in the Australian Championship all year.
its available in 5 gear set ratios, and custom orders
Its fully approved for FIA Group N and A for 2001
This has NO Breakages or failures.


The HD Synchro set.
This has been available now for over 4 years and is made by another MRT supplier, this is not G'Teed like the Dog Set, but as an example we have used it for the beginning of the year with no failures and, many other teams have used them. The same gear set was used in my car by Cody Croker to win the Group N championship in 1999.
The benefit of this part/s is it can be mixed with OE parts to save on complete gear set changes, IE we can supply a HD 1st 2nd gear set that will fit with the OE gear box. PLUS these parts are available in a mulitude of componants to suit the many synchro designs, (single or double, etc) and they need no case modifications to fit.
It is available in a straight cut (NOT DOG) option as well..for 1st and 2nd

more

There is also several makers of (real complete) dog gear set's here and two of them are of very high quality.

Its important to know, that no one in serious rally's uses a "half" dog gear set. They mostly now all use the HD synchro set, although are moving to our dog set for 2001 with the change in the rules to allow it in Group N.

I am unaware of any rally team in Oz using any other brand other than ours, std, or the HD synchro set either sold by us or purchased thru other outlets.

I must be clear and point out that our supplier is NOT the supplier for BPM, and the same factory we use also supplies Possum Bournes Team.
BPM do not supply Possum Bourne Motorsport like I have had a few people mistakenly tell me and I know Greg of BPM I doubt would say this either. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

BPM use a small workshop in Sydney to manufacture their gear sets. And the owner of this facility is Sam Chalak and he is well known in Australia for supplying modified gear sets to some road wrx;s. He recently moved to making the gear parts that BPM sell.

Its important for people to know that the Subaru gear set has some inherrent weaknesses, in the design and the ratio choice.
The positioning of the engine related to the front drive train forces the gear box to have a very long input shaft and its primariliy this shaft that forms %80 of the gear failures as 1st 2nd input gears are cast on the same shaft.
In high load situations the shaft flexes and the gears move apart, causing gear failure on 1st or 2nd.
(that why our dog box has a two part input shaft to fix this problem)
The other weakness is for cars that run 3.9 or 4.1 diffs the ratio set has a very small amount of "meat" between the shaft and the root of the gear tooth this casuses another weakness.
The ratio needed to have good gear shifts and acceleration forces this gear ratio tooth count / design

Subaru moved to 4.4 diffs to try to aleviate this wekaness as it allowed slightly larger gears to be used, however it effectively moved the problem from the gear set to the diff. as a 4.4 diff is weaker than a 4.4 or 3.9!!!

So you have a few easy choices...
A unbreakable dog gear set
or
A HD gear set with synchros
or
WRX ratios and gears that are slightly larger than the USA rs 2.5
or
be sensible with your gear change and launchs!!! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Remember the new 6 bolt WRX gearbox now has a stronger case, however the design is effectively the same.

We have had incredible response to our dog gear set from all over the world, and for 2001 we will be supplying many National teams as well as some International Rally Teams. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif
The Drag car we supply is expected to set a new record for WRX's here soon and this very car will probably set a new bench mark for outright power from a EJ20 motor. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

People can order our parts thru any of our agents, that can be seen on http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/dealers.htm the US agents will be added shortly. and are at present ISR, Irvine Subaru, Bianchi Subaru, Prestigue Subaru, CTC, and more to come.

If ya want to see and hear how the gear set works there are some small Mpegs on this part of our web site http://www.mrtrally.com.au/team/lateinfo.htm

best regards
Brett http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

PS If anyone posts a reply that i should comment on simply e-mail me a link as i cant keep an active eye on this web site as often as I would like.

Thanks for clarifying a few things for me Brett. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Hmm interesting. Are there any hardened gearsets in the Legacy double overdrive ratio set?

One interesting question is on the rear diff subaru used a 10 or 9 tooth pinion, and a 37 or 39 tooth ring gear to make the 4 "subaru" finaldrives of 3.70, 3,90, 4.11, and 4.44. Did they do the same for the front? If not how did they do it? I as as there are off roaders who want'need 4.44's in cars that came with 3.70's or 3.90's

Also what are the internal differences between the 87-90? FT-4wd box and the later legacy AWD box. All I know is the FSM shows indentical LOOKING parts for the gearset, and a different section where the center LSD, or diff-lock is.

Early Legacy / Liberty gear box's ran a reduction drive in the transfer case as they had a dfferent ratio rear diff to the front. Off the top of my head (I am at home adn have no notes) but I think it was 3.9 front and 3.5 rear.
Thats why you must be careful when swapping gearbox's to Impreza's as ya can have a SAME fr and rr diff ratio and a variant transfer ratio. resulting in massive load on the centre diff that eventually torch's itself from the heat and can actually burst the transfer caase. due to the massive vraition in fr and rr axle speeds.. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Brett

Brett,

I will talk to Jon Ryther and ask him which gearset he was using that broke on him. I was under the impression that you either offered synchromesh gears or dog gears. I was unaware of a straight cut non dog design.

But answer this question for me. Assuming a heavily modified EJ25 drivetrain in a 2800 lb Group A compliant Impreza rally car, with peak power of 500HP+ SAE, and peak torque of over 500 lb/ft, which of MRT's gearsets would you recommend be used for this application?

I do not know if Rally Knight purchased gears directly from you, or if they purchased them through another distributor who sold them what they had on hand at the time. Be that as it may, they do have a set of broken MRT gears. I will attempt to ascertain the exact identity of the gears.

Hello,

Digital_boy, RK is running a nearly stock engine. They have a Haltech running a slightly modded engine, but maintaining stock internals. That being said, they sure don't have 500 hp http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif Rumor has it that they have half that! So power shmower, if they're braking trannies its the same reason I blew two of them (stock RS trannies, that is) with 110 hp. And it's not power!

Joel

Edit for clarity

[This message has been edited by Joel Gat, 1.8L (edited December 24, 2000).]

REAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYY??

And you know this how,exactly?

Have you actually ridden in one of their rally prepped cars?

I would think that, given the fact that Lon Peterson was able to give Rhys Millen holy hell in his high-dollar, Mitsubishi supported Lancer EVO VI, actually taking 1st overall for Friday's stage, that RK's claims are probably accurate. But that's just my personal, hands on experience talking.

I have seen the gearboxes being assembled with my own eyes. I have laid hands on the broken *STRAIGHT CUT* MRT gears that they broke previous to the Ramada Express Rally.

I have SEEN the, are you sitting down, *MOTEC ECU* installed *IN THE RALLY CAR*! It's not a Haltec on "a nearly stock engine"...
This is a Motec ECU controlling an EJ25 that has been modded to hell, and makes a hell of a lot more than 250 lb/ft of torque or horsepower. I've ridden with Andre Vandenberg in his turbo RS, and it is probably in the mid-high 200's as far as torque and HP go. This car, no offense Andre, would stomp all over his in an acceleration contest. If you'll note, I did say that I had no way of definitively determining if RK's claims to torque and HP were true or not. BUT, just as you changed your tune after riding in Byron's Impreza, I too doubted RK's claims. I have ridden, and I am no longer quite as skeptical.

You were wrong about Byron's car, and I believe your "batting average" is about to go down with this one as well. I'll be more than happy to share the dyno results with you after I get the RK 300HP CARB pending kit installed on my car. If scheduling goes as planned, I should be dropping the car off with them on the weekend of the 31st, and they'll start swapping the RS drivetrain into the L, and installing the turbo at the same time.

Hello,

Whatever he's using, Haltec or Motec or whatever. That's what I meant.

And as for your "ooh la la he was fast," so what? Josh and Dave came in 9th overall in a rusty, creaky, falling apart, 120 hp Datsun 510. Oh the competition in the US is so fierce that it's all about the cars and not at all about the drivers, right?

C'mon, rally in the US is in its infancy. I'm not impressed all that much. Heck, my second CRS rallycross (not a good example, but what the heck), Shiv took second place (it was his second rallycross, too), second only to a "400 hp" monster car. I took first place in street mod IN A BONE STOCK RENTAL SUNFIRE. Sure, there were cars with cages and other such rally equipment. Shrug. Yay.

BTW, Shiv beat Lon Peterson that day. Huh. And Lon was in his subaru. So what's that say? Heck, last time I went gokarting with Shiv and Rhys, SHIV BEAT RHYS. And that was in Karts, not cars, so it couldn't have been Shiv's car - Shiv must be the best driver on earth? Eh?

Or maybe one good performance means nothing.

And re changing my tune, reread my posts. I am still skeptical of all the claims Byron makes, I just think his car is fast. I can't remember what number I gave, but I think I guessed 350 hp at about 8k rpms or so on a motor that revs to 10k rpms. But from what I'm hearing, that's not very reliable. Byron has gone through many engine rebuilds and didn't he also blow an engine recently? *shrug*

Good luck with the CARB stuff...

Joel

Hi Guys
Don't want to get into the flame war either.
Just to let you know - The tranny in our rally car is not from Hewland or Hewland design. It is a Prodrive designed 6 speed double "H" with electro-hydraulic control.
Cheers
Simon
BTW - Please check before stating that xyz person runs xyz product and it's breaking / crap / etc. it does SO much damage to hard won reputations.

Priceless advice from Brett--
be sensible with your gear change and launches!!!

Now my question is this:

Any ham-fisted goon can thrash a gearbox with poor technique, I don't care how hardened the gearset. Will the method of failure be considered when honoring warranty claims?

Simon,

The 6-speed you guys run are not anyway from Hewland? I have had a non-active box apart quite a few times and it looks to me like it is alot like Hewland stuff. Perhaps Hewland makes the gears for you? I could be wrong, but I would like to know.

cheers

Simon, I know that SWRT and ProDrive don't run anything even remotely resembling a stock transmission.

Apparently, Rally Knight has been running BPM gearsets only. They told me they bought them from "A shop in Texas", and that's all that the chief mechanic knows about them. They were supplied by the owner/sponsor to them, so my information has been sketchy.

I don't think they're going to try manual gears again, seeing as how they're happy so far with their auto transmissions.

This information strikes us as strange in the following regards..

BPM have not had a single DOG gear breakage WORLDWIDE so the RallyKnight "experience" which has not been verified can not validate the statement.

The facts are as follows..

The BPM gearset is manufactured by BPM with Sam Chalak as the head engineer of that division. Sam Chalak is our engineer and is responsible for a great deal of the design work we accomplish.

Secondly the follwing cars run BPM

Rigoli Over 750HP
Dario Over 800HP
Baker Over 750HP

and this list can go on and on...NONE of these owners have broken the BPM gear set.

If anyone wishes to contact them , we would be more than happy to supply details.

As to why BPM do not promote UNBREAKABLE gears is as follows..

It is firstly against trade practises. A gear that is unbreakable HAS to be warranted under any type of use and or abuse.
It is NOT unbreakable if you have to abide by "do not abuse rules"

We WILLINGLY ask our users to TRY break the dog gears, since not a single dog gear has come back broken with a great volume being used worldwide.

The fact of the matter is most gears in the market place will be 17mm in width , the BPM patented design allows for a 24mm first gear as an example.

We feel the USA is suffering from Chinese Whispers and this is to be expected due to the distances between the countries.

We have NEVER claimed a 1/2 dog solution is used by rally teams. This is another classic example of words being put into our own mouths.

The 1/2 dog set is an innovation designed by BPM that allows high HP vehicles to have basically a bullet proof first and second gear without having to go a full dog set up.

We have pioneered this to allow the average user to attain higher HP levels.

I guess the proof is in the pudding and we ask all people to put the unbreakable gearsets to the test. Sidestep the clutch at 9000rpm and time will tell which gearset has proved iteself. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

We apologise for rambling but its cases like this that we have to state facts rather than trying to belittle our competition. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

BPM www.bpmsports.com (http://www.bpmsports.com)

Interesting...

If the transmissions are that strong, wouldn't the next weak link be the axles in a high rpm launch situation?

I'm curious as to what kind of axles all those 700+ hp guys are using.

9k rpm drops. Wow!!!

Uhmmmmmmm, well, I don't have access to my webhost right now (at work), but I'd be MORE than happy to post pix of the (destroyed) gears in question.

They are most definitely toasted, with teeth sheared off, cracked, etcetera. This is from being driven in SCCA Pro Rally in a turbocharged EJ25 producing 500 or more lb/ft of torque. I'm sure someone here can translate that into newton/meters or KG/meters.

At this point, my decision is to not make a decision. I've talked to Guard Transmission, and they feel that they can make a gearset that can reliably withstand the power output of a big torque turbo EJ25 and live. They've been making gears for GT3 Porsche roadrace cars for the past few years, and for drag racing VW applications before that.

Aspen,

You are correct in your statements as the weak link we are finding in cars with 700HP + is the rear driveshafts.

In all of this debate and discussion not once has the installation process been mentioned.

With tolerances being soo tight sometimes you will find a gearset [not naming ANY manufacturer names since this is generalized comment] is as good as the installer.

BPM www.bpmsports.com (http://www.bpmsports.com)

Ah! Thanks for posting and reminding me....


This is the gearset that Rally Knight killed at the Ramada Express Rally in Laughlin, Nevada. It died 6 miles into the 1st stage on the second day of the rally, after they'd run neck and neck with a Ralliart prepped Lancer EVO VI.

http://onosendai.org/~cornholio/Rallyknight/toasty.jpg


The following two pics are of gearsets that have failed on them previously. One set still has the forward gears usable, because revers failed on them while the car was backing up normally. The other one I don't recall when it failed. I believe it might have been after the Maine Express rally.

http://onosendai.org/~cornholio/Rallyknight/trannyparts.jpg

http://onosendai.org/~cornholio/Rallyknight/trannyparts2.jpg

Edit:
BPM, you tell me, do these look like the dog gears you sell? Or not? Whose are they? What I know right now is that Rally Knight bought several sets from a shop in Texas, and that they "came from an Australian company". Now, without more specific details, that could mean they're MRT, BPM or maybe Possum-Bourne gears. Whatever the source, they haven't proved to be very durable for big torque applications.

How often does Tony Rigoli change out gearsets on his 10 second Impreza?

Is it possible to find a manual gearset that can take the high torque output that these engines can make for more than a few thousand street miles, or a few hundred rally miles? Even the Subaru factory rally team swaps out their $60K 6 speed gearboxes at every maintenance stage. That's great if you've got Fuji Heavy Industries footing the bill, but for John Q Average, that's just not possible.

Also, you state that several guys running 750HP and 800HP Impreza's use your gears. Fine. They make a lot of HP. What kind of *TORQUE* numbers are they making? Byron Legget's 93 Sedan is reputed to make 650 or more horsepower, but it doesn't have near the low end grunt that the rally cars put out. It makes a lot of power by being built to rev to 10,000 RPM. Not exactly a torque monster.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Boy (edited January 20, 2001).]

Hey,so what is the deal on emissions for the Rally Knight 300hp kit?

And how much would it take to beef the 4eat,not including the paddle kit? Just enough to handle 300hp+,and shift right?

How much is it gonna take to build a gearbox to reliably handle the same amount of power.

I am not all about putting ANY kind of turbo kit on my car,no matter how good,if I have to do black market emission slips every test.

CARB testing is something that some of these Turbo kit Mfr's should have considered long ago.

Most people that can afford these kits without hitting the credit cards hard,would like to not have to offer cash in a back alley to smog their cars.

Just from my perspective.

Socal,

Rally Knight has engineered at least two kits in concert with Leading Edge. They have given samples of the engine/ECU combination to a company in Arizona that is certified by the CARB and the EPA to do emissions testing. This company puts the engines through a large variety of tests, such as sticking them in a refrigerated room, freezing the engine solid, then warming it back up and starting it up and measuring the cold start emissions.

The kit I'm getting will use a Motec M4 ECU, since I plan to upgrade later to their 450HP package. But if you don't plan to go for that much power, you can save a grand and go with a Haltech ECU also. The Motec is code locked from what I've learned, and apparently this satisfies the CARB's strictures on non reprogrammability by the end user. I'm unsure what the Haltech will do, but I imagine it too will be code locked.


As for the 4EAT solution, if you have $3500 or so, Rally Knight can supply you with a beefed to the hilt 4EAT transmission that can take 300HP and torque all day long. They have a setup to allow you to manually lock the trans into 50/50 torque split, but are still working on the variable torque split. When it's done, you will be able to reverse the torque biasing from FWD to RWD from 10/90 to locking it at 50/50.

Hello,

I'm going to admit that I don't know what I'm looking for in those pics... However, the CARB MOTEC/Haltec dream has come up before. Since the CARB folks themselves say ABSOLUTELY NOT, sure, go ahead and keep touting the dream Digital Boy, but don't complain too much when you have to reverse the install for a LEGAL CARB smog test (or you have to find a dummy or pass some bills under the table).

Joel

Keep hope alive. Al it takes is inginuity(Spelling?). Anyway, I fear I am in a lot of trouble messing with scoobys now. My WRX is ordered. Guys should I touch it. I really hate rebuilding gear boxes. I do a lot for friends=free damn. I should start charging.
But I have forbid any more boxes coming into my garage. I don't want to get into having to rebuild my own often. Tell me there is hope that won't cost 5K every few months. Because if that is the case I will leave the car stock and beat the hell out of it and let subaru foot the bill!

As the BPM engineer I spoke to night rally because I could not believe there
Hp was enough to scare the gears. The gears are rated at 1200hp and up to
1000ft.Lb of torque. I cannot see how being in 4th at the time and powering
down the track will shred 2nd and 3rd. Without pointing the finger at
anybody yet we have called back the gearset for investigation. Even though
we do not give an unbreakable warranty we give customer support in return. We
are that confident that the hp involve is not large enough on this occasion
and we will re set up the box just to prove the strength on this occasion. I
remember reading that the rally cars punish gears more than drag cars.

Theoretically rally cars punish dogs more and drag cars punish gears more.
The gearset was designed to withstand up 850hp and 700ft.lb's of torque and
has done so for the last 11 months in the Rigoli car without being opened and
this is fact. There are other cars in the same situation as the Rigoli car
but the Rigoli car is the best example since it is the most recognized
pulling a flat 10 second pass at 144mph. They launch at unrealistic revs
distorting the whole and smash 2nd in the same manner, it has to be seen to
be believed I personally have not got the heart since it is so vicious.
Please feel free to ask any questions since

I will be constantly logging in,
since I am the designer the last thing I want is misinterpretation of the
situation.

Haysam Chalak
sam@bpmsports.com www.bpmsports.com (http://www.bpmsports.com)



[This message has been edited by Haysam Chalak (edited January 22, 2001).]

Welcome aboard...

Greg told me you had moved over... http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

I am interested it this thread as I will be getting a gearset soon... full dog setup

Its a choice between yours and MRT's...

Havent quite decided yet...

Can you mail me with the details of your set...any machining required...etc..

Cheers,

J.

Digital,thanks for the reply,I was the one that wanted to go with you to pick up your car.

I would like to meet you sometime at Rally Knight to check out their shop,are they around on the weekends? It would have to be in a couple weeks,as school starts soon! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/frown.gif

Awesome to have a rally team in SoCal,dontcha'think. Not that I even need to mention a Subie rally team! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Hi all, this is our first time on these forums, but after what we have just read we thought that we should should clarify a few things.
BPM does not supply us with there gearsets, this was a marketing tool used by BPM that we agreed apon but have since terminated. This is the same case with the BPM stroker kit.
Our car makes 499hp at the wheels in 4th gear and 2200 ftps of torque at the wheels(this figure is the tractive effort at the wheels that the dyno dynamics dyno reads. As a referance a standard WRX produces 800ftps at the wheels of torque). To date the only breakages we get are from the drive shafts which are still standard, they usually last for about 6-7 passes down the quarter mile. Last meeting we ran a 10.002@143.5mph, then the run after we broke the output shaft on the gearbox. This shaft is still standard.
If anyone has any questions about our car feel free to email us on rigoli@blitznet.net.au
Thanks,
Sam Rigoli
Tony Rigoli Performance

Hi,

I have heard high and low about a lot of products, but "unbreakable" is kind of a BS claim. But in any case, I am willing to try anything if I move my car to the 'open' class. So, specifically, Brett are you saying that your gearsets and Posssum's are the same (you said they came from the same supplier) ?

I am interested (the original thread was a summary of options) in a set of gears and/or synchros that will fit in the standard housing and will take about 350ft lbs or torque in a rally application (read abuse).

Also, will the HD synchro sets fit on a standard US-spec RS gearbox. And for those asking, this would not be to run in production but in open class but I am interested in saving some $$.

[This message has been edited by patr (edited January 22, 2001).]

We thought we should clear the all the misconceptions on this thread by giving a good background history.

Sam Chalak was the engineer and designer behind the gearset. This is still true to this day.

When the gearset was purchased by Tony Rigoli Perfomance is was not under the BPM Banner since Sam Chalak was not a part of BPM at that stage.

Times change but the fact remains the gearset is now the BPM gearset and timlining the gearset to its origin of birth only confuses the general public.

The Stroker Kit BPM has available is NOT the current one used in the Rigoli car.

BPM has the newly released and proven 2.28 offering available to the marketplace, which is been run by Baker.

Hope this is slightly clearer.http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gifhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

BPM www.bpmsports.com (http://www.bpmsports.com)

Joel, can you name the source of knowledge that you're referencing when you claim that any aftermarket ECU is forbidden by CARB?

My source is a gentleman who's been involved with writing the BAR 97 smog test procedure, and who was consulted on BAR 99. He also happens to be the man Jon Ryther hired to build his rally cars. According to him, there is nothing that specifically prohibits an aftermarket ECU, so long as it is not reprogrammable by the end user. A code lock, or a hardware change to render reprogramming inoperable, or something of that ilk.


I'd appreciate it if you could quote the chapter and subchapter of the appropriate document where it states that such things are prohibited.

When is somebody gonna make a gear set for we street drivers/occasional autocrossers who want to put out only 250-280hp and have the tranny survive for a while?

This is what happened to my car, and I can't afford a $3,800 BPM gearset http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/frown.gif

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum24/HTML/001150.html

We need to be able to spend under $1500 for a gear-set that will handle the lower levels of power from a modded 2.5L turbo motor. I am thinking about a WRX tranny and will be researching those options, as they are only $1,500 shipped for a used one. For now, I need to keep a $500 used Version One tranny in the closet as a backup for emergencies...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

DS,
The stock gearbox is the weak link in the 1st generation Impreza's when you turbocharge.

If you spend the bucks on a good dogbox, the trans is no longer the weak link. If it's assembled properly, then you should have nothing to worry about until you hit power levels like Byron, Rally Knight and Rigoli are putting out, and even then, the gears may or may not be the weak link.

I am budgeting for a strengthened gearset for my car, since I know what to expect, ie broken gears.

The big choice I have to make is if I want to go with a manual gearbox, or with an automatic gearbox. Rally Knight has been very innovative in converting a 4EAT to manual shift operation, and are well on their way to having a driver controllable torque biasing system.

I believe that for now, I will simply have to baby the stock gearbox until I have had a chance to drive examples of both a full dogbox transmission and the modded 4EAT.

Wholly toledo Batman.
Well where to start.
First I have had a little talk with Digital Boy and he has assured me that this will not happen again. He is not a spokes person for Knight and taking pictures of my property without permission is disapointing.
I will and have never been involved in discrediting anyones products. MRT your gearset has not been used in our cars.
I must apologize for any information that would lead to this mis-understanding. It was found that one of the gearsets we tried was a STI piece and not from your company, where this all came from who knows.
Yes the BPM gears did fail. Why we'll let them decide and Sam Chalac has been most helpful.
I want to make sure that all vendors of products either used by us or not understand we will not be involved in anything such as this thread.
We believe that business is to a degree personal and Rally Knight would not jeopardize any relations with whom they come in contact with.
I explain again that Digital Boy is not a spokes person for Rally Knight and our business is to race rally cars.
To this end we try many parts some will work some will not.
Jeol Gat you have my personal invite to see the "stock" cars and such and make your own decision since you are the unequaled expert in all that is Subaru.
Your ability to throw out every gain in the after market for Subaru leaves me to belive that you are the sole expert and your findings are that next to god himself.
Please bring your priestlyness to the shop and get the tour so that you will just stop posting.
My apologigies to the Moderaters but in my defense I have seen no one person that exemplfies the antagonistic that exists on this board more than Mr. Gat.

Yeah, mea culpa. I do admit that I was posting from the viewpoint of an *enthusiast*... I see a problem with a product, my first impulse naturally is to share it with my peers to get the input of other, hopefully more knowledgable/experienced, enthusiasts to find out why the hell this happened. The Subaru aftermarket is still in it's infancy here in the US. The signal/noise ratio is quite overwhelming at times, and I'm simply trying to get some hard factual data out there to set a standard for comparison. I do try to be as factual as my source data allows me to be. I never implied that BPM, MRT or Possum Bourne were crooks or vendors of substandard products, or at least that was not the intended implication when I posted this thread originally. I was merely bringing attention to what I perceived to be a VERY serious stumbling block for those enthusiasts who were contemplating spending a large amount of money on a turbo EJ25 drivetrain, as I am currently doing.

I hadn't thought of things in the light of a business aspect. Quite simply, it never occured to me to look at it from that angle, tho I do fully appreciate the points you made. So I'll consult first if I want to post something other than an exterior shot of the car. (Like a shot of Lon putting the car through it's paces, as an example.)


As for Joel Gat's unexplained animosity, I'm as much in the dark as you are. I grill you because I figure if I ask you the really hard questions now, I can compile a FAQ and save time and effort when Rally Knight is ready to bring a mature product to the marketplace. In my opinion, Joel is acting the part of the spoiler, saying that it's impossible to build a CARB certifiable 300+HP EJ25. My opinion is that those that say it's impossible should stand aside and let those doing the impossible get on with their work.

Just for everyone to be clear, this is %100 not our gear set,

And to further clear things up, YES we do offer %100 g'tee on the breakage of our gear set.
If you want to side step the clutch at 9000 rpm and test our gear set, go for it.
if it breaks we will fix it!


Brett

MRT Performance

I noted another point above, the dog gear set we offer is not the same as sold by Possum Bourne Motorsport.

Anyone who thinks our unbreakable offer
is "BS", please do us a favor and test it!

There is a HUGE variation in design of our
gear set and the BPM/Chalak set, and others on the market.

If people take the time and compare,
the two gear sets are made to two vastly
different designs.

Have a close look on our web site, and
the data is clear and easy to see and compare
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/gearsets.htm

Thats as much as I will say.

The rest is up to people to choose.


Brett
MRT Performance
www.MRTrally.com.au (http://www.MRTrally.com.au)

Hi again,
We don't know much about the subaru seen over there in the US, so can anyone tell us if much development has gone into a manual shift auto? No one has come up with one here in oz yet.

Hey Rigoli,

To my knowledge, Rally Knight has had a pretty trick 4EAT made for them for their rally usage. It has been able to withstand the abuse of SCCA Pro Rally. It is manually shifted, which is an old trick for an auto tranny, merely requiring a bit of knowledge as to how the valve body works, but the real magic is yet to come, as they are working on a system to allow driver control of the torque split via a knob in the cockpit, ala the STi WRX's and 22B.

Didital_Boy
Yeh, I know about the manual valve body trick, its just that in OZ all the subaru's transmissions are computer controlled. I'd heard that some subarus over there come with the manual valve body but we didn't know which one and we keep hearing the same story from transmission specialist that there waiting for parts from the US. You'd think that they'd find something after 12 months. We gave an auto to a shop long befor we met Sam to try and build something for us but since the dog gears worked so well we just forgot adout it. But I think that eventually we will have to look at the auto to keep going faster. Theres a few of the other guys over hear4 talking about it but we'l have to wait and see.

Hello,

Coolness, I'm a god and "the expert" now. Shoot, I thought Mike Shields had that honor. To put it simply, I have great animosity towards people who pull bullcrap out of their pants and call it the utter truth. I hate liars and cheaters (see JC Sports threads that have over 400 posts...).

Now, on to the attacks on me above. Digital Boy, I have NEVER said that a 300 hp 2.5 engine cannot be made to pass smog (if I did, it was over 2 years ago, before I tore a 2.5 down). In fact, I think that is a quite simple thing to do. However, to pass CARB, you cannot use a programmable ECU. That is what I have said. Nice challenge, by the way. I'm not about to waste hours looking for your answer - I'd rather return the challenge to you: when you show me the exception to the rule that allows "locking" the programmable ECU, I'll show you the rule. Hint, it will be the rule to which that exception is associated.

Rally Knight - I had heard that your engines were near stock. However, please reread what I wrote... "That being said, they sure don't have 500 hp Rumor has it that they have half that!" Rumor. Nonetheless, perhaps experienced rallyists such as yourself, when given superior equipment (500 hp, stripped cars with great suspension), just lack the driving skill to put that equipment to proper use? I don't mean to sound like I'm insulting you, but I find it hard to believe that some 450 horsepower monster car driven by an experienced rallyist got walked on by an utter newbie in something as simple as a rallycross... That's the only time I've seen your cars, and Shiv drove a car with nearly stock suspension (and likely no more than 250 hp) to roast your times. His overall time would have been even better (see his progression of times) if he hadn't worried so much about bottoming his suspension. His latter times were much better than his early times even though the course became far more rutted.

Anyway, are you still using the "wired shut" Leading Edge mystery engines? If so, do you have any idea how much power they're putting out? How? I thought you aren't supposed to dyno them? I don't really care to know your personal business affairs - but I'm guessing that if you have 500 hp on race gas, you are using at the very least 4 550 cc injectors running at above normal fuel line pressures with near maximum injector duty cycles? Digital Boy's pictures didn't show extra injectors... But that's a seperate issue from the original discussion - that of gearboxes.

Now, unless y'all have more personal attacks to make, let's get back to the issue at hand, gearboxes.

Joel Gat

Hello,

My mistake. Ridgecrest was one year ago (Feb 6, 2000). Mr. Ryther tells me that they ran the car sans turbos and sans internal engine mods, though now that my memory has been jogged, I do recall that at the time, they referenced a guesstimated 220 hp, which I remember thinking was high-balling what they had done to the car. Now it all comes back to me. And yes, Lon beat Shiv (who was at about 250 hp by my guess) by 4 seconds total time.

1 Tony Chavez Galant VR-4 185.48 1 CRS Open 4wd
2 Lon Peterson Subaru Impreza 188.57 2 CRS Open 4wd
3 Lincoln Woodard Subaru Impreza 191.97 3 CRS Open 4wd
4 Shiv Pathak Subaru Impreza 192.29 4 CRS Open 4wd
5 Anton Musev Audi Quattro 192.34 5 CRS Open 4wd
6 Carl Jardevall Volvo 740T 194.24 1 CRS Group 2 / 5
7 Bruce Brown Mazda 323 195.51 6 CRS Open 4wd
8 Josh Jacquot Mazda 323 197.67 1 4wd Street Stock
9 Jonathan Ryther Subaru Impreza 198.39 7 CRS Open 4wd

Well, there is one source from where I had heard the "near stock" rumors from http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif I have still heard that, though I don't see any reason why that must still be the case. I'm sure Leading Edge does do something to the engines... http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

I make mistakes and my memory fails me from time to time. I think my biggest mistake was taking on Rally Knight because of what Digital Boy was posting. I should stick to bashing the poster and not the person about whom the poster is posting http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Joel, still sure that CARB approval on a programmable ECU sounds like a dream.

Hey efoo, a lot of guys worldwide are killing themselves with trannies in Grp N, hence the switch to allow the new 'as long as it fits in the case' rule.

So my question still stands, what are the options to put into a standard housing that will take up tp 350 ft/lbs in a rally application and wont need constant rebuilding , and will work with US rear ends ?

A new question: (maybe for another thread)

Does anyone have a setup that will give overall shorter ratios that can be fitted to the us cars (i.e. a 'max acceleration' gear set that maybe tops out at 170km/h or so). Again, for the same application.

-Pat

patr: how about the STI Type RA gears? I think Adam Bloom says his car has around a 115mph(not quite sure of the specifics) top speed, gearing limited.

Efoo, I agree, I do owe a few of the companies in question a conditional apology. I apologize if I cast any unwarranted aspersions to MRT's or BPM's products. I do not feel that I need to apologize for the intent of the thread, which was to bring attention to a potential pitfall for Subaru enthusiasts.


Joel, let me see if I understand this correctly. You're going to call BS on what I've turned up, and refuse to cite "proof", claiming that "it will take too long to look it up", and that I should "go find it myself"... Bull pucky. You're the one claiming to be in the know. It is incumbent upon you to prove me wrong. I want chapter and verse, as it were, where it says the CARB gods say "thou shalt not use a Motec". If you want to sit in a tree and throw dung, fine, this is America, land of free speech. But don't get too upset if I tune you out.

You will never get a programmable engine management system CARB approved. It may be annoying, buy Joel is right on that point - besides, Joel, Shiv andI are old drag racing buddies http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif. If you want to talk emissions (which has been done to death, but is always one of my favorite topics), then let's start a new thread.

Digital - i think Colin was more saying joel should apologize. You already did. But I think Colin better not hold his breath http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

Pat I am with you too. I am looking into the mid 300hp reliable setup. I already am working on the Haltec kit for my car (read my car should be done by this week and u will be hearing about it). I already have the turbo setup. now I am looking into some sort of tranny work to support the stress. The way I see it pat if u are past the turbo/ems then do a STi Type RA tranny, bpm rods, and pistons. That should more than hold u over. Carb is out of the question. And like Colin said... no matter what tranny u have once u start abusing it, it will break.

Rao, that's just the point. When it comes in CARB legal kit, it's LOCKED. It's no longer programmable. Hell, Chrysler's OBD-2 ECU's are reprogrammable, if you can crack the code to unlock them. They have Intel FLASH RAM to hold all the fuel and spark tables and so forth. Just because an end user programmable version of the same product exists in the market does not automatically disqualify a non programmable product from qualifying. Hell, they'd have to take half the Chevies off the road because of the number of PROMs and solder in socket solutions that exist for stock ECU's.

We really should take this to another thread.

The point is that a stand alone ecu would not be CARB legal, that dosen't mean that you wouldn't be able to get the car smogged successfully or that people aren't running with them on the street. Just like robbbing a bank is illegal but that dosen't mean that people don't do it and occasionalyl not get caught.

For an obdii car - which includes every car built after 1/1/96 there is no way you would get such a system CARB approved that dosen't mean taht the emissions are any worse than a factory car, it just means that CARB won't grant an e.o. #.

HA!

I am <u>SORRY</u> for any misconceptions or misconstructions that I spewed forth. I may be completely mistaken about RK's equipment so I should not have been so "certain."

As rao said, CARB should be another thread. Digital Boy, now to completely spell things out for you, the reason I bounced back to you on finding the statute is because you will not find anything about programmable ECUs in the code (I believe there is some mention of industrial applications). And while traditionally, law used to be "that which is not specifically forbidden is allowed" the modern trend has been "that which is not specifically allowed is forbidden." CARB and the FEDs simply state that you cannot change emissions equipment. The ECU is emissions equipment. You therefore cannot change the ECU. This holds true unless there is a specific exemption to the law.

So, true, CARB could make an exemption under the law that would allow such ECUs to be added after the initial sale of the vehicle without violating the Federal requirements, but I really don't see CARB bending over backwards to help the aftermarket. Until they do bend over backwards, such ECUs will all be "for offroad use only".

In fact, Jackson Racing specifically designed their supercharger system to have a bypass... not for fuel economy or anything silly like that. But to avoid changing the fueling requirements of the car at idle. That is the ONLY way they were allowed to pass CARB on their supercharger kit.

Joel

PS, to get back on thread - Pat, I would suggest changing the front and rear diffs to the 4.44 variety once you decide on a gearset, if that's legal under the rules... That will achieve your 'max acceleration' purposes...

As for who makes gears, BPMs don't fit your no-modification needs. MRT, Holinger, Possume, Prodrive, etc., make gearsets that fit the box, no machining necessary.

Joel - one word is still missing from your post... "sorry" http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Actually, same goes even more so for Digital_Boy. A lot of parts companies (and a rally team or two) have had a cloud hanging over them because of this discussion. It's really rather unfair to them, I think.

Digital_Boy, I (and a lot of others, I'm sure) are glad to see that you have so much enthusiasm for your project car. But there's really no reason to talk up your setup when it's not even running yet! Show the car and the CARB sticker a month or two from now, and you'll have Joel Gat-proof evidence that you were right. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

My goodness, this tuner-fanclub thing is becoming like professional sports - what's next, riots between opposing fans like the ones you find at English soccer matches? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif Every shop is trying the best way they know how to go faster. Of course they think their way is the best way. But there's no need to put down other people along the way, and that goes not only for the tuners but for their customers! The proof is in the cars themselves.

-Edwin

ps: to stay on the topic of this thread, I'm now running a transmission from a Japanese Legacy twin-turbo. They have the same final drive as the RS does, so I didn't have to change my rear diff. And so long as I don't shock-load the transmission with standing starts and sudden flooring of the throttle (which is a faster way to drive anyway in the grand scheme of things, except perhaps in rally or drag racing - I am more a track day kind of person), I expect it to last a good long time. If it breaks, it will be my fault, not that of the transmission, and I'll eat whatever humble pie is thrown at me at that time. All those guys running Group N cars with factory transmissions in rallies all over the world can't be all wrong. Sure, they are restrictor-limited to < 300hp, but I'm sure they generate loads of torque, and torque (and bad driving too!) is what breaks things, not hp.

[edit to agree with ColinL's observation about driving habits]

[This message has been edited by efoo (edited January 23, 2001).]

Really bad shifting habits destroy gearboxes even more often than torque. I am frankly in awe about MRT's warranty.

p.s. I would agree that apologies are in order.

The Porsche 911 Turbo S uses a CARB legal Motec, so why not a Subaru Impreza?

Aren't there also several other CARB legal cars with Motecs too?

All of them have the ***capability*** to be programmed with the right......."modification" and they are locked from such operation, so why not an Impreza?

I honestly don't see what is so hard to beleive about it.


I'm still confused by the gears. I guess I'd have to go with the guaranteed not to break ones. I'll never see close to those horsepower ranges anyway.

Just to clear up the final mis-conception of BPM gearsets.

We DO offer a "drop in" solution of gears but this requires us providing a 20mm first gear.

For the rally teams out there that is sufficient since they do not stress the drivetrain as much as strip cars do in first and second.

The high HP strip vehicles down here always choose the 24mm solution and their results are a testimony to the 24mm design.

Greg Nikolettos
BPM www.bpmsports.com (http://www.bpmsports.com)

Hello,

So I stand corrected yet again. Sorry http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif Are those 20mm gears synchro'd gears, then, Greg?

Joel