Doing some research and would like to add this info to my notes. Any input you post would be helpful. Also, if you know, I would like to know the source you found it in and if it's credible. Thanks! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Hello,

Less than 200 hp - Mike Shields - not credible http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif
Over 300 hp - Shiv Pathak - yes credible and daily driven, too

It's unknown. Everyone with high powered cars that explode their engines has poor or improperly tuned fuel management. I don't know if anyone who has properly set things up has blown a motor yet. Of course, bone stock, no one has dyno numbers over 300, either, even though there are several cars with that kind of power...

Joel

According to SCC (the Turbo install for the Impz Project car), a 2.5L @ 165HP is only using about 46% of it overall capacity

do the math.


--Reiflex
http://www.geocities.com/na_impreza_wrx/img15.gif ImprezaRacing (http://www.reiff.freeservers.com)

Hello,

How the heck can you say an engine is using 46% of its potential? That's more than likely a reference to injector duty cycle or something like that. And even that sounds strangly low since most of the turbo folks switch to 550 cc injectors and still run like 80 or greater percent duty cycle at WOT.

Joel

The EJ25 can make more HP than the drivetrain can handle on a regular daily driven basis. Unless you are building a purpose built vehicle ( rally racer,sand rail, etc.) with BIG $$$$ in the drivetrain there is little point in exceeding 280-300 HP which it appears can be made easily and reliably with the EJ25.

Just keeping a 300 HP RS going in a straight line is a challenge ( I have trouble at 250 hp) without drive train upgrades ... like front axle LSD, rear axle LSD, driver No LSD http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif, dog gears, etc.

FWIW

Joe Hogan

Thanks for the input! My goal is to have 400 + HP at the wheels!!!!! Yes, I will still be using it as my daily driver if I get that powerful http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Start saving your money for drivetrain components.

Actually, such a car is not that terribly expensive. I've been asking around here and there, and have a pretty definite upgrade path to get me to 400+ daily driven horsepower:

Options:
300HP:
Shiv Pathak/Vishnu Performance turbo and TEC-2 ECU. Near $6K, but you have full control over all engine parameters via laptop. Only downside is, if you live in a state with stringent emissions policies (CA,NJ, and others), no CARB exemption is even planned, so you must remove everything when smogging, find a blind smog tech, or make the car a track only car.

OR

Rally Knight: Bolt on turbo kit w/Haltec E6K ECU for $5K or (for $1K more) a Motec M4S. 300HP pretuned, and CARB EO pending. This kit, like the Vishnu, requires no internal engine mods at 300HP. The CARB pending kits have ECU's that are modified to be non reprogrammable by the end user. They do sell regular E6K's and M4S' (or you can find one used) but if you're caught running it by "the man", it's your butt.

OR

Rallispec: They are in the process of offering a turbo kit complete with most everything you need to make 300HP, including catback exhaust and other sundry items. Cost is $6500 or so, only available installed by Rallispec currently. So unless you live near NJ, or are willing to roadtrip, this is not an ideal option. No engine management listed on their website last time I looked. Potentially a big "oops", as engine management is key to engine longevity.

OR
Cobb Tuning: I must profess my ignorance here. I know Trey is a tuner of impeccable reputation, but I simply have not researched his turbo offerings much at all, since, to my knowledge, they're all only available as Cobb Tuning installed items. Like Rallispec, if taking the car to Dallas is not an option, then Cobb Tuning is not the answer for you. I'll edit this section when I have more answers re: Cobb Tuning's turbo packages.

400+ HP

Now is where we start to play with the big boys. At 300HP, you can get away with using a stock tranny, if, *IF* you have enough self discipline to avoid 6,000RPM drag race launches and those oh-so-cool, but tranny killing 4 wheel burnouts. You can baby your tranny along for quite a while at this level, but you'll eventually need a stronger gearbox. Shiv managed to get 30K miles from his stock gears, even after abusing them for awhile when he first installed his turbo system.

At 400+HP, get real. At this power level, a stock trannie's lifespan can be measured with a stopwatch. 1/8th throttle launches will break 1st gear like a rotten twig.

At this level, a full dog gearbox is not an option, it's a mandate.
I'll discuss my findings as they concern dogboxes at a later date, tho. Suffice it to say that WRX-STi is correct in stating that you need to start saving now for those shiny, pretty, straight cut gears.

Who makes engines/turbo kits that produce this kind of horsepower? Let's see...

Vishnu Performance: Shiv is currently working on putting together, (or has put together) a beefed up shortblock with forged rods, pistons, etcetera, to handle >20PSI of boost to propel Project Impreza over the 400HP mark. As this kit is still in the developmental stages, no price has been set as yet, but given the base price of approximately $6K, we can assume that the stage 2 and above will cost... more.
Those of you with Vishnu TEC-2's already have half the battle won, as you merely reprogram your ECU's with the proper fuel/spark maps to support this godlike level of power. You will, however, have to invest some serious bucks into your shortblock and your transmission.

OR

Rally Knight: As with their 300HP kit, they offer a complete engine package, which is nearly identical to the engine packages they currently run in their SCCA Pro Rally Imprezas. They're rated at 450HP and 450lb/ft of torque. Word has it that the engines were dynoed on a brake dynamometer (out of the car) at 500+ HP and lb/ft of torque, prior to their being fitted with 36 MM intake restrictors to conform to SCCA Pro Rally rules. The cost for this package is somewhere in the $15K region. This includes a sealed Motec (they feel the Haltec doesn't offer enough resolution for this application) M4S, suitably strengthened shortblock, sourced from Leading Edge Performance in Temecula CA. And, the icing on the cake, this kit is also CARB EO pending. Those who wish to raise the BS flag, either at the HP and torque numbers, or the CARB EO claim, are fully welcome to do so, but I have ridden in Rally Knight's SCCA fitted Impreza, and I feel that their claims may not be exaggerated at all. That car was **FAST**. Not quick, not point and squirt, but, quite simply, it's brutally, nastily, in-your-face, FAST. And, when the shouting's over with the CARB nazi's, it'll be 50 state legal to boot.

OR

B-Spec USA: Byron Legget, as some of us are all too well aware, has generated quite a bit of controversy with his white 1993 Impreza L sedan. It's fast. Brutally fast. Joel Gat, formerly one of Byron's harshest critics, changed his opinion after riding with Byron at Thunderhill. Does his car make 600HP? Maybe so, maybe not. But what is known for certain is that it is more than capable of reeling in 100 kilobuck sports cars on the track, and thus merits consideration for those whose quest takes them to the lofty Olympian heights of horsepower and torque. I've talked to him before, and he felt he could replicate the engine setup in his car for about $10K, inclusive of all engine internals and ECU, a Wolfe EMS3D. I know next to nothing about Wolfe's ECU, other than it's name, but do know that Jim Wolfe's Nissan parts are widely regarded for quality.


OR

Cobb Tuning:
I said I knew nothing about a 300HP package from them, and was being truthful. However, in my search for power, I contacted them asking what it would cost to build a 400HP Impreza, and they answered. tho they rate their system at 350HP, I chose to put it here. Mainly because I didn't look at my archived emails. but anyway, for approximately $18K, they can build, install and tune (again, your car must occupy the same space-time as Dallas for Cobb to work their magic on it) a solid 350HP engine *INCLUDING* a (presumably) full dogbox transmission. Drop off a 165HP RS, and a couple of weeks and $18K later, you have a sleeper capable of hunting the big dollar machines. Porsche, it's what's for dinner!

And I just realized I've been sitting here for better than two hours typing out my experiences searching for the best deal on Subaru horsepower. So with that, I bid you all adieu, and sally forth to bed.

Digital Boy,

Nice summary of available power options. It has been my experience that "kit" options from a company that has done all the R&D are the way to go when upgrading. Currently I am stuck doing much R&D w/4EAT turbo RS. Expensive and a pain in the butt ... if you ask me http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

Cobb Tuning and Vishnu have excellent customer support in my experience and both proprietors are very knowledgeable in general and about the Impreza. I've not dealt with the others you mentioned.

Joe Hogan

very nicely put Digital Boy. obviously been doing your homework.
only thing I might suggest is to not limit yourself to one vendor. maybe hit the 'industry leader' in their respective fields.

for example:

Vishnu is reconized for their engine mgmt. The Shiv TeCII should be flexible enough for any system.

Cobb has all sorts of engine internals advertised - heads, pistons, strengthened blocks.

Rallispec - the best exhaust systems out there. I dont doubt that their turbo kit will have some of the best workmanship and quality available too.

MRT - the answer for the drivetrain...maybe someone will be able to build a synchromesh gearset that can withstand 400 HP.

you get the idea.
I think that we are going to see some 400+ HP monsters soon...that can handle, brake, deal with bad weather and be daily drivers. (only thing with the daily driver part that I dont know is the straight cut gears...are they really streetable?)

What!?! you mean I should not be running 25psi on my stock internals? Maybe I should turn it down a bit. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

And here comes the voice of reason chiming in (and its not coming from Joel either):

Can any of you guys justify spending $15k (and I wonder if that includes labour) on a $21k car? I am also somewhat reluctant to believe the high boost, small engines will run on pump gas safely (or you will sure as hell not be able to daily drive a 400hp Impreza is what I am saying; you will have to turn that thing down a notch)
The worst part: Now I hope (not even getting into emissions) that no idiot driver ever hits you cuz then you are in for a world of trouble replacing those parts (i cant see an insurance company insuring a 20k car and 15k parts). To me its like wearing glass slippers hoping no one will step on your foot.

Anyway... it would be fun tho http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Get in your hands, High quality low compression pistons, High quality lightweight rods, Balanced and Knife-edged crankshaft, protection for the open block, Heavy duty valvetrain components, Upgraded gear box, strong clutch, lightened flywheel, top quality turbo kit from any of the above mentioned manufacturers or custom kit, High quality gaskets and bolts, full engine management, and a top quality tuner to install the entire package and then throw around the statement "400 HP out of 2457 cc.
Zee

Actually, TR, I have considered that very same avenue myself....

I think Rally Knight has the best option for me, since I live in San Diego, and have no plans to move any time soon, I want CARB legality. Rally Knight is the only tuner so far that *I* am personally aware of who is even talking about getting an exempted kit, let alone already going through the certification process.

However, I have mixed feelings about their Leading Edge sourced engines. I know that Leading Edge supplies the ECU's and wiring harnesses and so forth, as well as the engines themselves. But I intend to find out if I can get the 450HP package ECU without having to buy Leading Edge's shortblock. After talking to Trey Cobb and Byron Legget, they both sell complete, high boost ready shortblocks for much, much less than the $10K differential Leading Edge is asking for.

Basically, the 300HP kit costs $5K with everything. The 450HP kit costs $15K. And to add to the mystery, Leading Edge requires you to sign a contract stating that you won't open the engine up. If it needs internal work, you have to send it back to Temecula. For a sand rail or a rally car, this is not that big a deal. But with a street car, I don't think so. I want to use the Rally Knight ECU and turbo, and bolt it onto a Cobb or B Spec shortblock.

As for engine management, I intend to spend the extra $1K up front and start off with the Motec. Even Shiv admits the Motec is a superior ECU to the TEC-2. He opted for the TEC-2 because it was the best compromise between processing power and cost for his needs. Trey Cobb chose the Haltec E6K because he felt it was a better solution. Leading Edge actually sources a custom Haltec E6K for the CARB kit, which is sealed against end user reprogramming of the fuel/spark map.

And again, we hit the problem of emissions legality. I want to keep my car as legal as possible, at least from the viewpoint of pieces that are externally mounted on the engine.

But, I feel that I can build a 400+HP Impreza for under $25-30K

NickSTi, If you're running 25PSI on a bone stock EJ25, you're living on borrowed time. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

And, to address the question of cost of mods vs. total cost of the car, why not? How much do you think RUF charges for their CTR package? It's another $100K on top of the base price of a 911T, which is http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif ONLY http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif $120K, a bargain for a 420HP AWD sports car. Who's to b!tch if it costs almost as much as the car cost new to make it capable of keeping up with McLaren F1's?

Or a Hennessey Venom 650? A Viper GTS costs $70K, or thereabout, and the Venom 650 package is another, what, $40K on top of that, with the twin turbos, plumbing, engine internals, ECU's and what not.

Besides which, I am not starting off with a $21K car either. At one point, I was considering buying one of several turbo'd RS's that were advertised on the board, and going from there. But that's also when I first began researching how much a high HP Impreza would cost that it hit me that an RS is NOT an ideal starting point. Mainly from the standpoint of price. I have a 1995 Impreza L FWD that I bought for $2500. I have a 1999 RS that was rolled at Buttonwillow that I bought for $3500. My starting point is $14K below what the RS guys are paying simply to have 165HP and the current generation WRX's looks.

By the time I'm done with stage 1, which will get me to 300HP, I'll have a transmission that will be capable of taking future power upgrades (either a manual or Rally Knight's 4EAT conversion), the DMS 50MM suspension, have upgraded my exterior to the RS' nad repainted, and most likely put a nice set of P1's or P7's, have STi brakes all around, have a rally inspired rollcage, and still be under the total cost of a new Impreza RS.

And at this point, my sub $20K car will be able to accelerate, brake, and corner on par with cars that start out at $50K and upwards.

If you're worried about insurance, you can always get additional coverage for aftermarket parts. I had extra coverage on my stereo in my Neon for awhile, but dropped it right before my head unit was jacked. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/frown.gif

Besides, I fully intend to hone my driving skills at auto-x now that I will have a car that will be truly fast. So hopefully I can avoid crashing. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

About your RUF and Hennessey analogy, point taken but how many people do you know daily drive a viper? And on top of that, how many people daily drive a hennessey tuned viper? I personally do not know any venom viper owners so I would not know, but I know one or two people and they sure dont sit in traffic comfortably in their stock vipers. The whole thing was its a daily driven car.
You will also have to prove to me these highly modified expensive cars are used only on the road too, and not for racing/touring car.

Anyway, its not for me to say what is reasonable or not. It may not make sense to me, but may to everyone else. After all *I* dont even see why commercially produced cars should do 150mph. Things get too complicated at 150mph no matter how good a driver you are.

Actually, Nick, here in Mira Mesa, I see a few Vipers on the road every day. But, I do cede the point that a Viper is not really a daily driver.

However, the RUF Porsches *ARE* docile enough to drive every day, and I have seen a few on the road here. Then again, I live right next to La Jolla California, where BMW's, Jaguars, and Lexii are as common as Honda's and Toyota's. In Mira Mesa, I've driven alongside Ferrari F355's and 456GT's and see Porsche's every freaking day.

But, my point here is, the Rally Knight car that I rode in, while having a rock hard suspension, really didn't behave like a monster in traffic. It idled nice and smooth at about 900RPM, and when driven normally, acted just like a normal Impreza. (minus the whine from the KAAZ center LSD) It was only when you put your right foot down that the car came alive. And even then, you pointed it in a straight line, hit the gas, and *WHOOOSH*, you're accelerating at a rapid rate. I did take not of your mentioning the need for a front LSD at that power level, and have been trying to decide if I need to get one or not. Fortunately, I will have enough spare budget to get one after all's said and done if I feel it's needed.

But getting back to my main point, if I had that same engine and drivetrain in a street car, I could drive it to work every single day, in stop and go traffic, and go to he grocery store and do my shopping, and the car wouldn't overheat or give me a lick of trouble. I could then take it out to the auto-x or the local 1/8th mile drags they hold on the weekends at Qualcomm Stadium, and drive home in it. It is 100% daily drivable. About the only downside is it gets rather bad gas mileage for a 2.5L engine, but then again, it gets better mileage than an Explorer or an Expedition, so who am I to complain?

And regarding the "need" for commercially produced cars to go 150MPH or more, well, the US is not the only country in the world. In Germany, the autobahnen regularly see speeds in excess of 150MPH. But the requirements to get a license in Germany make ours look like they came out of a Crackerjack box.

What I didn't say previously is that when I get this done, I will be making a point of improving my driving skills through participation at the local autocrosses, both with the SCCA and with the BMWCCA, since they're usually more open to non BMW cars competing. The Porsche CCA are usually real d!ckheads, and want to maintain their Porsche exclusivity. I think they're afraid of getting whooped on by cars that cost a fraction of what they paid for their uber-cars... http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

hey digital-boy, do you have rally knights web address (if they have a site?)

Thanks,

TMR

Man, you guys know your *****. I really appreciate everyones time and energy http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

As far as I go, I don't want to put more than 10 Grand in my car period! Whats the best set up for 10 Grand in your opinion.

Don't forget, I would LIKE to be as close to 400HP as possible so if you have a suggestion, let me know http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

TMR, they have a domain registered, but no server yet. They've been busy with the rallies, but are taking a break now. They're skipping Sno Drift, so they'll have 3 months solid to do R&D, focus a little more on the street products, and hopefully get the website up.

thanks, digital_boy

:-)

Okay, I will concede this one... for now http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif but those cars dont really make very good daily drivers. but who am i to say...
Rally knight says they r waiting til they have products to sell before coming up with the website. Just doin a whole heap of R&D now.

WRXMan

10K overall cap? For 400HP, that might be stretching it. Rally Knight will sell you a 300HP bolt on for $5K with a Haltec E6K, and do either a 5 speed or their hybrid 4EAT for near $4K or so, depending on what options you want. BTW, this setup makes 300HP and 300 lb/ft of torque as well. It's not a peaky screamer engine like the Euro/JDM spec EJ20's.

That's $9K right there. That leaves you with money for a decent suspension (Ground Control KYB AGX coilovers $800 or so, as one example) and something else, like a Kartboy shifter, or STi engine mounts.

If you're willing to spend over that, I'd recommend at least hte following, aside from an engine/trans combo

Quaiffe rear LSD:
$800 plus shipping from Jay_UK

STi 4 piston front brakes:
Available from SPD, ISR (WRXGirl), Troncalli Subaru (sugar), Subaruparts.com (partsace)

STi 2 pot rears:
Same vendors as above. Some may argue that you don't need these, but I plan on getting them. With the increased power, you're going to need all the stopping power you can get. These 4/2 pot brakes fit the bill quite nicely.

Digital Boy writes...

"Even Shiv admits the Motec is a superior ECU to the TEC-2. He opted for the TEC-2 because it was the best compromise between processing power and cost for his needs."

I don't believe the Motec is superior to the TEC in every respect. In fact, I'm fairly confident that the TEC, by virtue of its crank trigger and continual crank position acquisition, can offer better ignition control and resistance to spark scatter. This, to me, is a big plus for high compression boost motors without much margin of safety against detonation. I would say that it's the single most important thing when turbocharging our engines.

The Motec, however, does offer a lot of features, most of which most people will never need. It has great processing power because it is designed to do many things (at once!). If you need traction control, on-board datalogging (no laptop required), ability to read different crank/cam triggers, wide band lambda auto tuning, several general purpose outputs, etc., the Motec is the clear choice.

Shiv

i drove a 97 viper gts coupe daily for about a year.(18k miles later)

very much a fun daily driver!!!!
not too good in the snow,trust me.

it was a chick magnet!

Shiv, let me ask one question: can a Motec use a crank trigger? I believe it can. But since you were just doing a comparison of many of the available ECU's for SCC, you should be able to answer this question directly.

And didn't you also say that the Motec had enough raw processing power to extrapolate crank position data without benefit of a crank mounted trigger wheel? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

The understanding I came away with was the TEC has the patent on continual crank position acquisition in hardware, but the Motec has so much processing power that it can do very much the same thing in software.

I'm sure that many of the features the Motec offers I may never use. And in the case of the pending 450HP CARB legal kit, the Motec is the only ECU offered. Leading Edge has done a lot of Subaru turbo engines, and has accumulated a *LOT* of data on how turbo Sube's react to boost and so forth. They feel that the Motec is the optimum choice when operating at this power level.

The rally car that I rode in made me a believer that really, really big torque EJ25's are a reality. Whether it's using a TEC-2 with a aftermarket crank wheel, or a Motec extrapolating from the stock crank and cam sensor, I don't much care. I want POWER!!! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Tluzz...

Viper+Snowed on empty parking lot = so much fun they made a law against it! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

digital,
you didnt need snow or rain to have fun in a parking lot....just alot of money for tires.
damm were those things expensive!

great gas mileage too!

Well (no offense intended) anyone who would openly admit to selling an inferior (not saying crap... but inferior to another product) product would not make a lot of business.
And digital_boy (boy are we going at it http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif ) if you drop 9k into your engine and only get crappy kyb/agx struts I would have to wonder what on earth are you looking for. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif And since the car will never be much of a straight shooter I would rather sink 5k into the engine then 2k into suspension. 1k into brakes, then go on from there.
About the Tec II, you cannot argue tho that probably 90 of the ecu upgraded people are running Tec IIs. And even tho (in my eyes) it is not the best solution, it sure does have strength in numbers.

Hello,

Law is plain and simple. No programmable ECUs allowed, for CARB. So, I'd be very curious how someone could make a CARB legal programmable ECU. I mean, the law directly says NO.

As for extrapolation of crank position, heck, the TEC extrapolates far more than necessary. Basically, while you are accelerating, the ECU has no way of knowing that, until the next crank mark comes by. In a normal setup, that's once per revolution. So your timing can be off as you accelerate because the timing is based of the crank rotation speed the LAST rotation and not this one. With a 60-tooth, your timing is based on the crank rotation speed 6 degrees ago. So you're 60 times more likely to be close to the correct timing.

It's possible, with a very rapid acceleration, that a single-tooth setup (like stock), you could be more than 6 degrees off on your timing, even if you have the most super complex extrapolation algorythm. With a 60 tooth, that could never happen, because you could only be off by the amount of accleration that has happened in 1/60th the time, so more in the order of 1/10th of a degree!

Of course, the solution is an optical crank position sensor using several thousand lines - then you could have resolutions down to 1/1000th of a degree. Totally useless to have, but the cost would not be significantly greater than current 60-tooth or other multi-toothed setups (like the stock M3 has a multi-tooth). And the optical unit could be completely sealed and would weigh less than a metal 60-tooth. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Anyway, the point being that the 60-tooth makes timing accurate to such a degree that any more is practically useless, while an extrapolation algorythm could leave you several degrees off per revolution.

Joel

Digital Boy,

It is possible to run the Motec off a 60-2 toothed crank trigger wheel. It has, I believe, the processing power to crunch the entire data stream instead of dumming it down into typical low res. ignition data like other systems that can adapt to a 60-2 wheel. As a result, it should be able to maintain acceptable ignition accuracy without relying on a seperate ignition-only coprocessor a la TEC-II. The point I was making is that without such an high-resolution ignition pick-up, it's silly to expect superior ignition control just because it's a Motec. A computer is only as good as its inputs. And all the processing power in the world can't make up for a loss of input resolution.

I find it strange that some people look at the TEC system and argue that they would rather use a computer that re-uses the stock sensors. In response, I argue that with a high compression aftermarket boosted engine running on pump gas (not race gas), we don't quite have have the same margin of safety against knock as do low compression, detuned OEM turbo cars. Needless to say, tuning becomes much more critical. Hence, the desire for new o2 sensors, a faster-responding intake temp sensor, high output DIS coils, a high resolution 60-2 toothed crank trigger wheel, etc,.

I would have loved to package a plug-in $950 engine management solution that did everything I wanted it to do, as well as I wanted it to do it. Unfortunately, I haven't found it.

shiv

[This message has been edited by shiv (edited December 23, 2000).]

Joel, perhaps you should re-read my posts re: Rally Knight's CARB EO kits a little more carefully.

I said the CARB EO kits have *FIXED* program versions of the Haltec and MOTEC. They can't be reprogrammed without wiping the preloaded fuel/ignition/boost maps that come from Leading Edge/Rally Knight. They are made tamper resistant. So if Joe Blow tries to be clever and twiddle with the maps to wring out a few more HP, he'll erase the maps that are in there. This satisfies the CARB requirement for no end user reprogrammability. I can't make it any plainer than that.

Shiv, I'll ask and see if a crank wheel is an option. I agree that you have a good point about resolution, but I do know that the Motec and Haltec application both don't rely on the crank position sensor alone. They read the crankshaft (I haven't seen the crank, so I can't dispute if it only has one "notch" for the sensor to read) and camshaft position sensors to determine the position of the crank.


But I would also argue that irregardless of how much of a theoretical advantage having a 60-2 crank sensor gives you, the results speak for themselves. Leading Edge builds very very durable engines, and they make a lot of power.

I will ask Bill Gutzmann what kind of fuel the rally cars run during competition and during their shakedown runs. If the 500+ torque and horsepower numbers are made on 110 octane racing gas or 92 octane unleaded premium pump gas. If it turns out that the big numbers are made with racing gas, I'll find out what the engines are rated to make safely on 92 octane.

Also, for the record, since Rally Knight is going to be taking a 3 month break from rallying their cars, I am going to bring a proposal to Jon Ryther and see if he won't agree to take the cars over to UPRD or some other place that has a 4 wheel chassis dynamometer. I believe by that time, I should have the RK 300HP kit installed in the car, so I can use my car as one example of what their bolt on kit is capable of doing. Hopefully I can get them to bring one or both rally cars and we can strap them on the dyno and see what they're capable of turning out.

NickSTi

I never said or implied that anyone (Shiv, Rally Knight, Cobb, B Spec) was turning out a crap product. I have done my own independent review of ECU's like the Haltec, the Motec and the TEC-2. The TEC-2 has patents on some very useful technological hardware to continuously capture crankshaft position. But this patent is not the only way to provide a good input for an ECU. Leading Edge feels that the combined inputs from the stock crank sensor and camshaft sensor plus the Motec's processing power, along with their large database of tuning data from numerous turbo Subaru engines is more than adequate to reliably wring big horsepower numbers out of an EJ25, with properly strengthened internal pieces.

As for KYB AGX's being crap, not really. They're not top of the line, like Leda's or DMS 50MM's (I'm limiting myself to parts readily available in the US, otherwise I'd say get a set of Ohlins struts that SWRT uses on their WRC cars), but they're good enough for auto-x and aggressive street driving. Kartboy took a regional auto-x title in his RS while using AGX struts. He's since upgraded to the DMS 50MM's, but he hasn't been competing much since he got them.

If one goes with Rally Knight's product, you can get a non-turbo Haltec N/A system for $2K or so. This will bring you up to around 200HP . The other $4K is for a tranny that will be able to take the abuse of auto-x and the inevitable street racing and legal drags. You can leave the gearbox stock, and have $4K to invest in DMS 50's, Whiteline everything, urethane bushings all over, and the STi Group N engine/tranny/torque bar mounts, STi brakes at all 4 corners, and a couple of sets of tires, one with good street rubber, and one with R compound auto-x rubber. It would be an awesome car on tight, technical courses, but would be outmatched by many of the turbo Honda's and DSM's in the "stoplight gran prix".

wrxman555 wants the closest he can get to a 400HP street Subaru for <$10k. If he keeps the RS, then he's going to have to settle for considerably less than 400HP. I anticipate that by the time I'm ready to install the shortblock and new ECU to bring the car up to 400HP, I will most likely be at the $20-25K mark in total dollar investment. Putting the built shortblock in will put me over the $30K mark, but with the plan I'm working to, I will already have upgraded everything else (trans, drivetrain, differentials, etcetera) to be ready for the infusion of extra torque and horsepower. Basically, I'm going with 300HP first because if I were to go directly from a 110HP FWD L to a 450 (nominal, 500 realistically) HP AWD Impreza, I'd probably end up like many of the people on the board who lost control of their cars and crashed. Or I'd kill myself by misjudging a safety cushion on the highway and rearending a semi at 150MPH+

Also, Shiv, the Motec and Haltec kit reuse some stock sensors but not all. They both use a GM 3bar MAP sensor, and have a barometric sensor to sample ambient temp/air density to help adjust the fuel/spark map. I am unsure what stock sensors are reused and which ones are switched for aftermarket units.

I haven't taken the time to read all the posts exactly, but as I spoke to many people in the US on my recent trip, Incl Shiv, I was amazed as to the costs of some kits inc Motec..
As an example and as we are Motec dealers here in Oz, we use them often and are probably the largest sellers and fitters of Motec for Subaru,

AND we use Motec with all original sensors, only in high boost early model engines do we swap the Map sensor, later model units can read higher boost and dont need to be replaced.
We can even supply ready made plug in units to match the OE plugs!
Hey even in Oz with Emission laws not far off california, we can get the cars to pass a full blown EPA test, (the one done to prove import cars meet the laws her by all car importers) that is far more complicated than just a "smog test"
Also the real benefit here is the fitting of the ECU is a simple installation at the cabin end, needing no mods in the engine bay at all, saving labour and parts and making the kit look very original.
What i cant comprehend is WHY Motec is so costly, (in the US) and I will be taking this up with the factory (Melbourne) after Xmas as we have many MRT agents wanting to supply and or fit via us...
BTW, there is no issue on crank sensitivity or timing as Motec is 32 bit, unlike most other ecus.
If its good enough for a factory team (Mitsubishi, some subaru's and probably %90 of all compettiion cars in Oz) its good enough for me!!

Brett

Welcome to our world, Brett. We're the largest consumer of automobiles in the world, but all the really good cars never make it here for some strange reason.

2002 marks the first time a turbo Impreza will have been available from Subaru as a factory option.

We may or may not get a Mitsubishi Lancer, but we definitely won't get anything even remotely resembling any of the EVO cars.

The Puegot 165? ( I believe that's the Pug that bumped Burnsie and his Sube out of the Mfr's title in WRC this year) Get real. That's far too nice a car to ever see the inside of a dealership in the USA. Hell, we can't even get a decent V8 RWD sedan domestically anymore. Sure, Ford makes some, but they're underpowered slugs. Holden makes a Commodore VT with the Corvette's LS1 V8, Getrag 6 speed and independent rear suspension. The closest we come is the Cadillac Catera with a so-so V6 and a slushbox tranny. And they're the same damned Opel unibody!

If MRT can help drive the cost of making fast Subaru's down while driving quality up, I'm all for it.

Hello,

A couple comments - (1) re CARB, you've got to be joking, Digital_boy. "uhh, here's my completely programmable ECU. I swear it has the original program in it. I swear. Mr. High School Education Referee, if you want, you can download the maps and compare every single cell to this printout that I handily have that is also on file in Sacramento in some basement that would take you 7 years to get a copy of through the beaurocracy. I swear you'll find that my maps are the ones that came with the unit."

"Uhh huh, son, and now welcome to reality. Please revert this car to stock."

Look at it this way. RK and LE are both TINY TINY little shops. They sell engines that are supposed to be million horsepower engines. They wrap some wires around them and say "you'll never get a rebuild if you open this" and then they pump out what appears to be less than 300 hp. Whatever.

Oscar Jackson, who I respect greatly AS A BUSINESS MAN, has more CARB approved packages than any other shop out there for any mark of car. However, notice one thing. He has no programmable packages. Wanna hear something amazing? He's also approved by CARB to exempt his own products. He has been doing SO MUCH work with CARB that they now allow him to make CARB exemptions for products that meet the specific reqs. No other tuner shop has that power.

The point? Oscar has not figured out how to pass a programmable ECU. He even thought of downloading a program, killing the computer connection (disable the serial port), and selling it as a sealed unit. It may work someday, but the man who CARB exempts his own products can't exempt his own trick to making programmable ECUs pass.

*shrug* If RK and LE have really done it, congrats to them. They should share how they did it with CARB because no one at CARB knows how, yet.

And where do you keep getting 500 hp? This is a fantastic number that no one has proof of. Are they building engines with Byron? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif BTW whatever happened to his Rigoli-killing record breaking run? Oh... BPM tranny blew up http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/tongue.gif

Joel

Uhhhhhh, whatever Joel.

From the standpoint of the electronics, you're exhibiting a complete disconnect with reality.

Leading Edge utilizes Motec ECU's for their engines. They have contracted with Motec to supply them with **MODIFIED** versions of the ECU's. These **MODIFIED** ECU's are very different from the standard issue item in that the modifitcations requested are to ensure fixed programmability. This is not very hard. Depending on what memory technology is utilized by the manufacturer, the changes are VERY simple at the circuit board level to ensure that whatever data is programmed into it at the test fixture at Leading Edge. If FLASH RAM is utilized, the process is very simple, all you need do is tell Motec to provide you a run of ECU's with the WRT line remove, or with a jumper in place on the PCB. Then, when the ECU is programmed, one merely removes the WRT jumper, reassembles the ECU, and puts a tamper evident sticker on the ECU. OF course, this labor intensive process will naturally be more expensive, given the low volume of ECU's to be programmed. If it were on the scale of, say, GM or Ford, naturally it'd be far cheaper to order a few hundred thousand mask programmed PROM's that aren't rewritable at all. But we're not talking OEM manufacturing here, we're talking about a niche tuning operation.

So, to use your quaint example, it'd run something like this...

"Here's my CARB EO number, check the ECU, the unit's still sealed tight, and according to this Exemption Order, it has been certified to comply with CARB emissions regulations"

"Here's your registration sticker, sir"...


As for Oscar Jackson, ever notice how his CARB legal products really don't boost the stock horsepower enough to warrant an ECU? I've seen the before and after results from his Civic SC's, and it takes a 1.6L from being a 18 second car to a 16 second car, all for only $4K or so. If I were only interested in having a car that can outperform just other Subaru Imprezas, I'dve bought a used RS and grabbed one of the several low boost kits out there and been happy.

Jim Wolfe makes CARB legal ECU's and chips for the Nissan 300ZX crowd. I'm sure if I look around, I can find other examples of CARB legal aftermarket ECU's. You've proven nothing to me.

Edit: And yes, they blew up a set of BPM gears in the 5 speed car at the Ramada Express Rally. They've been having atrocious luck with *ALL* aftermarket 5 speed gearsets. So I'm not terribly surprised that Byron killed his BPM box. Maybe Byron should have a talk with MRT again, or I can hook him up with Paul Guard, and he can get some REAL nice gears for his Subaru.

(Yet another) Edit: The exact spec that Jon emailed me was 550HP@?RPM and 545 lb/ft@?RPM on Leading Edge's brake dyno, using a Motec ECU. Jon, Bill, Lon, and Joe have all been living, breathing and eating rally cars for the past couple of months, and have taken a long weekend for Christmas. I will, however, email Jon and see if he can provide a hard copy or image file exported from the dyno computer to verify this figure.

[This message has been edited by Digital_Boy (edited December 24, 2000).]

Hello,

Trey Cobb chose the Haltec E6K because he felt it was a better solution.

That or his experience from his RX7 days is solely with the Haltec, Shiv already has the TEC, and others already use the MoTeC. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/tongue.gif

In each of the following, bold emphasis is added by me.
First time:
Leading Edge actually sources a custom Haltec E6K for the CARB kit, which is sealed against end user reprogramming of the fuel/spark map.

Second time:
I said the CARB EO kits have *FIXED* program versions of the Haltec and MOTEC. They can't be reprogrammed without wiping the preloaded fuel/ignition/boost maps that come from Leading Edge/Rally Knight.

Third time:
These **MODIFIED** ECU's are very different from the standard issue item in that the modifitcations requested are to ensure fixed programmability.

Digital_boy, I don't want to start a flame war here, but make up your mind. What are they doing? Can I wipe out their program and input my own? Can I pull their chips and put in my own (which are stock, normal, everyday, whatever Motec normally uses chips)? Can I do whatever I want and get a new tamper sticker from any major supply warehouse? I don't get it?

Jim Wolf is a bad example - he reprograms stock ECUs and is, I believe, the only person outside of Nissan who has broken the their code. If he has gotten his reprogrammed ECUs CARB'd, I'd be surprised, but its not unbelievable. The reprogrammed ECU is no more easily end-user programmed than a bone stock ECU.

A Motec is a different animal. Since CARB currently does not issue tamper resistant CARB EO stickers, how the heck are they going to know that the sticker on your Motec is a LE sticker and not just a tamper sticker you picked up at the computer shop you work at?

I would LOVE to have a CARB approvable programmable ECU, even if the programming features have been disabled. It's always easier to crack a disabling fix (or replace a disabled chip) than a complete computer system...

As for your comment his CARB legal products really don't boost the stock horsepower enough to warrant an ECU? That's rediculous. Ever wonder WHY anything that does a whole bunch of good is not CARB approved? Ever wonder why OJ BOTHERS to make a supercharger system with a BYPASS? Because CARB doesn't allow modifying the fuel and ignition for zero load testing. So emmissions at idle must be done at stock fuel and injection parameters. Oscar makes a bypass to the superchargers so that off boost, you run completely stock parameters.

Ever wonder why you fail smog if your timing is advanced several degrees? Because you're not at stock fuel and ignition. That's why the techs check your timing.

This is not a game to California. Governor Grey Davis just vetoed a bill that would exempt Kit Cars from the chassis year smog law. So a Kit Car not deemed a replica of a pre 70's car must pass smog of the year the chassis was made. You buy or design a GTO replica today that's been changed in design so as not to qualify as a replica (say, for example, you give it a real independant suspension, you widen the body parts to fit more safety equipment, you move the engine further back for better balance, etc), IT GETS TO MEET 2000 EMISSIONS REQUIREMENTS, even though you're running a '50's or 60's big block engine.

So what, you don't care? Well, Governor Davis said (paraphrasing) "we can't allow a loophole that allows ANY cars to escape the pollution requirements - we need to be serious about cleaning up the air."

This is the government that will say "sure, go ahead, put a little sticker on something and we'll all pretend no one can mod it." No, this is the CARB that decided that you can fail emissions even if your car is cleaner than anything but an electric vehicle, IF you have any mods that the referee feels fail visual (like headers).

Joel

Hello,

BTW, Byron just informed me that the rumor that he blew his tranny was incorrect. His dog gears have not destructed (though he thinks there is some problem?)

Joel

Digital boy,

BTW, The Wolf EMS system is an entirely different entity than Jim Wolf ECU's.

Obviously you guys are taking about the SOHC EJ25, but what kind of power can the first generation DOHC handle(my98)?

wrxman555,

400hp at the wheels for $10k and a daily driver??

No disrespect dude, but please step away from the bong!!

Shiv had major drive train problems around the 300+ mark (am i right shiv?). You will need mucho more than $10k if you want reliable drivetrain for the kind of hp your talking about.

Peace,
MB

Markus,

Quite right. About double that. If Rally Knight isn't throwing out wild claims about their top end turbo package.

As you might have noticed, that still seems to be the source of some contention. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif