[wanted to use other terms in the subject, but no swearing on NASIOC]

Watching the German GP on Sunday, I was surprised to see German race fans cheer Kimi's high speed crash. I know they're pulling for MS, but to cheer a competitor's high speed crash just because it means MS won't have any competition in the race is uncalled for.

I'm talking about the shot over the crowd before his car even hit the wall, you can see Germans fans jumping up with arms high obviously cheering as they watch the McLaren hit the wall. The weren't cheeing MS because they only start cheering as the mainplane on the McLaren comes off.

What kind of people are we if we cheer a potentially serious injury because it helps our favorite race driver? :furious: :furious:

I think the funny part about that incident (I had the race on 2 minutes, that happened to be in the middle of them) was that if the announcer hadn't said anything, noone would've noticed. I didn't even realize that there were people in the shot.

With the additional data points of the Germans we saw in Greece, YES! Crass is one word. I can think of a few others.

I remember thinking on several occasions, "Hey, I thought we Americans were supposed to be the arrogant ********?!" :lol:

I noticed right away the first time they showed that angle. I don't even remember the announcers mentioning it. I guess it just surprised me so much I noticed it.

I can understand being happy about a competitor being knocked out, but only after knowing there's no injury. For instance, I was glad that MS didn't win at Monoco, but only after I knew he wasn't injured.

Imagine for a moment if those fans had been cheering and a Senna-like freak accident happened, killing Kimi. Maybe F1 fans have forgotten that wrecks that don't look that bad can kill drivers.

hmmm... sounds just like NASCAR to me... most of the simple folk that follow racing are just there for the crashes anyway.

Funny I heard the Germans & the French were cursing, spitting on Lance Armstrong over the weekend too....crass amongst other words come to mind.

Its also a different culture, extremely different AND European diverse. I lived in Germany for 2 years.

That guy's reaction (the one jumping up with his hands held high) could have just as easily been a :..." oh, my !!! no no...."

If anything, since we're generalizing here, most Germans are HARD CORE McLaren / Williams patriots.....

On the point of the Tour de France spitting....I whole heartedly agree and it was humiliating and REALLY PISSES me off....These incidents were corrobaorated by Lance himself.......

Ok, an overwhelming number of the French are American haters anyway, so while it's disgusting and infuriating, it's not that big a surprise. Basically, the Tour de France belongs to an American. It has for over half a decade. The French don't like that so much. That's why Lance was cocooned in teammates... they knew that something bad might happen if Lance wasn't protected. It's pathetic, but it's all politics.

Now, cheering over a crash is uncalled for. It's been proven a couple times that even the safest cars can become deadly when you crash just the right way. We've lost a few rally guys and some nascar folk too.. So regardless of the excitement, it's not right. Someone could have been killed. Those fans laughing and cheering should be ashamed of themselves.

Hmmm... is this mentality much different from what we see from some South American and Spanish fans during the World Cup?

- Miranda

This mentality isn't even that different than what you can see at sporting events in the US. Yes its crass, buts its not like the German fans are alone in acting like this.

Ok, an overwhelming number of the French are American haters anyway, so while it's disgusting and infuriating, it's not that big a surprise.
I seem to remember Americans trying to change french fries to freedom fries and such, so there is dislike on both sides.

As far as the fans cheering during the crash, I don't think it is anything new

You guys are just pissed 'cuz there is white trash in other countries beside the U.S. ;)
I don't think that is very typical of German fans to do that.
I was "pleasantly surprised" when Michael got tapped by JPM in Monaco and he went out(which was at a slower speed, thus less risk for injury). Everyone has their favorite driver, and someone as good as Kimi(even though he's been in a sucky car for the vast majority of this season) is going to have people who don't like him simply 'cuz he can "put the fight" to Michael.


Mika

This mentality isn't even that different than what you can see at sporting events in the US. Yes its crass, buts its not like the German fans are alone in acting like this.

Are you joking? Even in football and hockey we like to see a good hit but its sort of expected and have you ever been in a stadium when someone got really hurt? You can hear a pin drop. It really is eery to have that many people in one place and to have such silence.

As for Lance Armstrong I saw an interview where he said he even picked out his sunglasses based on what he thought would keep out "flying objects" the best.

When I have been to F1 races and seen a wreck there are always sounds of excitement as the event happens. It is going on right in front of your face but every single time there is a huge hush right as the heavy impact hits. When Alonso hit the wall at turn one it was just creepy. I like the fact that EVERYONE cheers when the driver makes it out of the car.

First off - F1 is very, very International - assuming the fan with the arms in the air was German seems a little rash, unless you know him.

Two, making the asinine assumption that the "overwhelming majority" of French people hate Americans is just idiotic. Have you been there? Just how many French people do you know? I'm personally very close friends with many French people, and, oh, yeah, my girlfriend is French. I've travelled all over Europe, I spent three months there just last year, including more than a month in France. Sure, if you don't bother to learn 6 measly words in French and SCREAM at Parisians in English, you can expect to be treated rudely. However, imagine a French person coming to America without the ability to even say "hello" and "please" in English. Would you bend over backwards to help them if they started yelling at you in slow French? Didn't think so.

About the spitting: Please, go to a Raiders game, sit in the Black Hole and root for the opponents. In 6 months, if you are lucky, you will be out of the hospital and free to act superior and nationalist again. People have been KILLED doing that in the US. Opposing players go to Philadelphia for a regular season game against the Phillies and get hit in the head with beers, batteries, and souvenirs. Spit is the LEAST of their worries.

I'm not condoning spitting at Lance, but don't throw rocks when you reside in a castle of glass.

Rant complete...

-Sean

About the spitting: Please, go to a Raiders game, sit in the Black Hole and root for the opponents. In 6 months, if you are lucky, you will be out of the hospital and free to act superior and nationalist again. People have been KILLED doing that in the US. Opposing players go to Philadelphia for a regular season game against the Phillies and get hit in the head with beers, batteries, and souvenirs. Spit is the LEAST of their worries.

I'm not condoning spitting at Lance, but don't throw rocks when you reside in a castle of glass.

Rant complete...

-Sean

Point taken....but I have one are of disagreement with you. Screwing with a stupid fan is one thing....screwing with the actual athelete WHILE THEY ARE COMPETING is a little different. Snow balls on the field in Philly will get you arrested.

That's true, but talk to a player, on the field in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, Oakland, etc., and they will tell you that the arrest promise doesn't begin to deter the fans from doing the throwing. Seriously, players complain about things thrown from the stands constantly. Sure, sometimes they exaggerate, but it does happen. I'm not saying the fans in France were good, or right, or acted with remotely acceptable comportment. On the contrary, I'm saying that fans everywhere can be a-holes, and you can't take the attitude that 60 million people are bad because a few jerks spit on a guy on a bike. I would hate for a French person, or Chinese person, or Latvian person to go to a Raiders game and judge me on the behavior of the fans in the Hole. Also, we have no idea what happened to the fans (who we, again, are assuming are French) who committed the expactoration. While I doubt they were arrested, you can be fairly sure they didn't recieve a medal for gallantry either.

Bottom line, players get f-ed with all the time by fans. It just happens. It's not good, it's not OK, but it's a fact of life that some humans have wondered off from the herd in a bad direction. This one incident gets so much press because so much of the sporting world was focusing on it. Let's not tar an entire population because 0.00001% of them are people you wouldn't want to invite to dinner.

Let's say you get robbed by an American guy wearing Nike shoes. Does this make all Americans bad, or all Nike-wearers bad? Of course not. It makes all people who rob YOU bad. These incidents do not make all Germans, all French or all fans bad - they make the people who do them bad.

Damn, I must not have slept well. Two rants before noon...

-Sean

Are you joking? Even in football and hockey we like to see a good hit but its sort of expected and have you ever been in a stadium when someone got really hurt? You can hear a pin drop. It really is eery to have that many people in one place and to have such silence.

How about when Michael Irvin was lying motionless on the turf in the "City of Brotherly Love" as a strecher was wheeled onto the field and the crowd was cheering. Was that a joke? :confused:

Wow, I didn't think this would get this many responses.

I certainly agree that this situation is not isolated to F1 fans at the German GP and not limited to any country's sports fans.

I was just a appaled to see the fans cheering a crash like that. Because the crash happened so suddenly, the fans that were cheering could only have had an instinctive reaction that Kimi carshing was a good thing. What does that say about those people? Before thinking, they decided that Kimi's crash was worth cheering. I hope they realized later what they had done and might react differently in the future.

The same applies to all sports fans who react positively to something bad happening to the opponent. It says a lot about you if you instinctively wish an opponent ill.

Jeremy

That's true, but talk to a player, on the field in Chicago, Philadelphia, New York, Oakland, etc.,

Damn, I must not have slept well. Two rants before noon...

-Sean

I have talked to a couple of the players before and yeah they do get screwed with some but at least the police protection is there. Combine this with the built-in buffer in the stadiums and the situation is different. They seem to make almost no effort for the Tour de France. But maybe I am just no seeing it. And I am in no means saying that we should label all French as expatulating freaks...but I guess by posting here...just simply saying the behavior was really off the charts. I really don't know why Lance would want to do that again.

As for Michael Irvin...I have no frame of reference for that as I did not know it happened....and I am not gonna just take your word for it. Let me do some research.

But I will tell ya this....if what you said is truly the case I would say that they no longer need a sports franchise there as the locals oblivously can't handle it. No Joke...yank the franchise.

The first thing I thought when I saw him go off was "Start moving around...just start moving around so I know you're okay." Seeing the fans cheering like that was disgusting. They saw that the person who was faster then their beloved Schumi had just gone out in a big way. I can understand being happy if his car just slowed down, but to hit at that speed sideways (remember that is what hurt Button so much at Monaco last year) it is just disgusting.

The Irvin incident is a well known fact, a little search should find you the answer...

As for why Lance would do it again - the same reason he won 2-6 - he can, or believes he can. He makes $~30million or more a year riding a bike, and that is predicated on winning the TdF. He likes the respect, recognition and dating Sheryl Crow. You know, little things... ;)

-Sean

I have talked to a couple of the players before and yeah they do get screwed with some but at least the police protection is there. Combine this with the built-in buffer in the stadiums and the situation is different. They seem to make almost no effort for the Tour de France. But maybe I am just no seeing it. And I am in no means saying that we should label all French as expatulating freaks...but I guess by posting here...just simply saying the behavior was really off the charts. I really don't know why Lance would want to do that again.

As for Michael Irvin...I have no frame of reference for that as I did not know it happened....and I am not gonna just take your word for it. Let me do some research.

But I will tell ya this....if what you said is truly the case I would say that they no longer need a sports franchise there as the locals oblivously can't handle it. No Joke...yank the franchise.

The Irvin incident is a well known fact, a little search should find you the answer...

As for why Lance would do it again - the same reason he won 2-6 - he can, or believes he can. He makes $~30million or more a year riding a bike, and that is predicated on winning the TdF. He likes the respect, recognition and dating Sheryl Crow. You know, little things... ;)

-Sean

Got to looking about the Michael Irvin thing...your right...I stand by my earlier statement that they should pull the franchise. Not really do-able but behavior like that is just not right. I certainly don't want my kids learning it.

As for the Lance thing....he already has enough money that I doubt he would have a hard time living in opulence for the rest of his life. Respect and recoginition are affirmed now with his 6th win. Sherl Crow...well maybe you have a point there..... :p

Some people still think Fangio was better than Schumacher - he may well have been, but he didn't win as many races, as many poles or as many titles.

Some people think MR or Tom Curran were better than Kelly Slater - maybe, but Slates won a heck of a lot more contests and a heck of a lot more titles.

Yep, I've done it. A surfing reference in a NASIOC thread. I think they'll barn me in no time.

Lance wants to go down as the best ever - no use pretending he doesn't and heck, more power to him that he's even in position to make that reality. Some people will never believe he's better than Mercxz, or Hinault or whomever, but if he can get the majority, well, good for him. Think about it, how many sports stars actually retired for good as the best in the game. I can think of two: Rocky Marciano and Barry Sanders. Period. Nobody else. You could make an argument for Jim Brown, but it would be tough. People just don't quit as the best. I'd love to see Lance do it, though - keep the myth. How many more tours do you think he can win? At least two, right? I mean, he KILLLLLLLED everyone this year.

Ah, well, that's it for this hijack.

-Sean

Did you guys notice what was written on the roads in the OLN coverage of the TDF? Every couple of kms you'd see a great big "FU*K LANCE" in white letters:lol:

That's why Lance was cocooned in teammates... they knew that something bad might happen if Lance wasn't protected. It's pathetic, but it's all politics.


- Miranda

Every team in a bike race cocoons or protects it's team leader. This is not unique to the tour or the Posties. It is a team sport.

The majority of the spectators at the key points in the climbs or race have been at that spot for close to or over a week, all the while on a total alcohol binge. They are referred to by the riders as Shmenge's involved in a Shmengefest. IN short they are piss drunk and acting as lame as a human can act. Crass is a good definition.

lance did not corroborate anything. The gremans are pissed cuz their boy can't win the tour with Lance present. Jan Ullrich just does not have the work ethic, drive or team to compete.

...lance did not corroborate anything...

UHhhh......yeah, he did ;)

Right after the l'alpe d'huez time trial, in his interview.

oops, my bad for taking the wrong meaning of corroborate :o :p

I remember seeing an opposing player get smashed unconcious to the ground at a Sharks match. Everyone cheered until they realized the guy was badly hurt, then they went quiet.

People are not going to stay silent at the moment of impact and wait for the confirmation that the competitor is ok before cheering - it just isn't human nature. During an exciting or shocking moment, people react in a very basic and thoughtless way. I'm sure none of the fans would want to see Kimi harmed and would regret cheering if anything had happened.

Bottom line, players get f-ed with all the time by fans. It just happens. It's not good, it's not OK,

-Sean


I agree, I'm sure Kimi doesn't even care that they were cheering when he got home and chooses between which exotic car to take for the day, it's the furthest thing from his mind. Being disliked comes with the fame. While there is no excuse for cheering when someone crashes, there is no way to say you can't cheer, or prohibit it in any way. Did anyone see the type of people in that section of seats? If I remember, I think it just about all young males, I didn't see any women or older people. That alone crates immature behavior. No disrespect to younger males, (I'm 21 myself) but if you put 75-100 in a section of seats, if can get pretty rowdy.

Hell, put 75 OLD males together and watch what happens. Testosterone expands exponentially...