ok, here's my latest boost control setup:

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/ebc-mbc.gif

essentially a cockpit-adjustable ball and spring mbc (hallman evo rx) in parallel with a GM "3 port" solenoid (in interruption-based boost control) which is controlled by a UTEC.

the UTEC boost map ends on 500 in the 100% tps column, and ramps down to 150 in the 60% column.

this setup allows for a couple of key points:

a) cockpit adjustability of max boost via a knob.
this is one aspect that i can't stress enough. it is by far the best way to account for atmospheric changes in boost levels as well as driving style changes (highway vs. city, wife driving, valet, etc). two seconds in the morning and it's set for the rest of the day.

b) throttle dependant boost levels.
obviously, this is key to avoiding stoichiometric boost, and also allows a ramping up of manifold pressure so that boost is controlled at partial throttle, instead of coming on when it wants to (ie pure mbc). this improves drivability and prevents engine damage due to PTFB scenarios.

c) rpm dependant boost levels.
haven't tuned this in yet, but the capability is certainly there. i have a strong hunch that tuning in a bit of boost taper at the top end of the rpm range while using the oem turbo is a "good thing," since it will cause the wastegate to open, reducing EGBP without decreasing manifold pressure, since that's pretty much capped by the compressor anyway. less EGBP for no hit in MAP is without a doubt desirable from an efficiency standpoint.

d) rock solid boost response.
when i say rock solid, i mean ROCK SOLID. those who have never used a GOOD MBC will not really know what i'm talking about. what i am talking about is a boost level which will NEVER be exceeded, even for the briefest of spikes. there are simply no spikes whatsoever to speak of.

e) very quick boost increase.
when the throttle is floored, the UTEC's boost map is set to 500, essentially max boost. the GM solenoid closes, which prevents any pressure signal from going through it to reach the wastegate acutator. the ball and spring mbc is a very good MBC in that it provides a very tight seal, and essentially no air gets through that until the spring tension is exceeded by the pressure signal. bottom line: boost response just as fast as a good ball/spring MBC, which is as fast as it gets.

i'm going on day two with the setup and i could not be happier... pretty much every thing i could ask for is addressed. since the picture was taken (during the testing phase) i have shortened all boost/vac lines as much as possible, and secured the junctions with zip-ties. having short, non-obstructed lines is also critical to having rock-solid boost control.

any questions, ask away...

ken

ps a tip of the hat to TMS for finding the very economical GM solenoid (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478896), which enables us to use a direct interruption based boost control method. i had tried the method i just described once before, using the oem bleed based solenoid (along with its attendant restrictor), and it didn't work at all, so this was key to the success.

Very impressive arrangement!

I would be very interested in running a setup like that, but partial throttle boost isn't a problem with 20G and FMIC. :p

Ken, that looks pretty good. I'm just not sure it's going to meet my needs unless I change the way it's working for you. I don't want more boost down low. I do get some spike, though, and if this helps rid me of that, all the better.

-Sean

This is interesting to me because I have been considering using a GM solenoid for some time now. The AEM ems uses gm solenoids because their one of the best. I was going to just replace the stock solenoid with a gm one and hook it into the Utec and use it that way. I am not understanding why the manual controller is needed? Is it solely for boost spike atmospheric changes? I now have a profec b spec2 and cant tell you how it works yet. Im braking in a new clutch and cant boost the car. I have been told over and over not to use the utec to controll boost on my 18G because the factory solenoid wont respond fast enough to regulate boost spike. So my first thought was to change to a gm solenoid. Like I said before is the manual unit necessary or just for spike situations? Im tossing this one around again now. Anyone want a Profec thats a week old????

C-Lo

I am not understanding why the manual controller is needed? Is it solely for boost spike atmospheric changes? I now have a profec b spec2 and cant tell you how it works yet. Im braking in a new clutch and cant boost the car. I have been told over and over not to use the utec to controll boost on my 18G because the factory solenoid wont respond fast enough to regulate boost spike. So my first thought was to change to a gm solenoid. Like I said before is the manual unit necessary or just for spike situations?

frankly i don't think many people would argue with the fact that nothing beats the stability and response of a mechanical boost controller. electronics are nice, but by virtue of their flexibility they give up a bit of that rock solid response. so to that end, i think the utec's EBC algorhythm isn't that bad, plus, it's "free" with the purchase of a utec, so that goes a long way.

to answer your question, yes, the MBC is there for two reasons:
a) provide adjustability of max boost without a laptop and without stopping the car and getting out and popping the hood.
b) provide a boost level which simply will not be exceeded.

a) is really about convenience and laziness! b) is important to me because it seems that with any EBC (not just the utec's) you are always trading off response/spool time against freedom from spikes. either you've got a quick boost control, or a stable one. maybe it's because i've used an MBC since my first month of owning the car, but having to make that choice is just not acceptable to me! ;)

generally those boost spikes come on during highly transient conditions, when boost pressure shoots up fast. for example, you're past the boost threshold of the turbo, driving at part throttle, then you mash the gas. the boost responds so quickly that the EBC cannot react in time to prevent a nasty spike. (honestly i think this is where a lot of problems arise when only dyno-tuning is used... on the street, things are a lot less smooth and predictable and i'll bet quite a bit of money that boost spikes are what's causing knock when there was none on the dyno. it's just a theory of mine though.)

i also noticed a stability problem when using launch control for flat-foot shifting... when the clutch goes down and the rev-limiter kicks on, my manifold pressure drops to around 14-15psi. the TPS is still at 100%, which means the utec is still using that column for the EBC algorhythm. i complete the shift, pop the clutch and the sudden increase in load gives me a surge of exhaust energy, which causes a nasty boost spike. with the utec solely in control of boost i got a spike of around 3 psi above my "normal" 17psi. that put me up around 20psi, which was WAY too much, and i'd generally get a shift knock when using LC for FFS. if i shifted normally, the boost was better controlled, but c'mon--FFS is VERY COOL... :D :devil:

now, using the MBC "clamp," i get a spike of <1 psi. this is acceptable to me (and my engine) so we are both happy. :disco: (i know i could get it lower, but i'd have to do some relocating of parts in order to shorten hoses, and they would be placed closer to the very hot turbocharger, reducing their lifespan.)

as TMS pointed out in another thread, essentially i am using an MBC with the UTEC to control part throttle boost levels via the GM solenoid. i think this is a great way to look at it. you can't use the oem solenoid to do this since it is a bleeder based system, and you need an interrupter.

i'm going on my second week with this rig and it's the best boost control system i've used yet (first was totally stock, then 3/16" mod, then joe p MBC, then throttle switched wastegate/MBC using the grainger solenoid and an electronic TPS switch, then i added a cockpit bleeder to the MBC, then i went back to the FBC system with the UTEC in control, then i went back to a straight MBC [this time with the much higher quality hallman unit] with UTEC's open loop fueling to mitigate PTFB, then finally the system you see here, [which not only prevents damage from PTFB, it completely prevents it from occuring]). it has been a journey of mine to find a much better boost control system for my car, and i am zeroing in on it.

hth
ken

eventually i would like to impliment my own outboard PWM controller that takes its signal from TPS and outputs a PWM signal whose duty cycle is proportionally adjustable. low TPS = low DC, high TPS = high DC. because i would still have the MBC clamping the boost limit, it would not have to be very accurate or repeatable--it would strictly be in order to prevent the PTFB as well as provide a smoother throttle response. as a result, the circuit would be pretty simple.

the reason i'd like to do this is so that i can free up the UTEC's boost controller driver to drive a high speed solenoid for water injection. i've heard that some customization of the UTEC's software can be done (with assistance from txs, of course) to change the TPS-based column reference of the boost map into a MAP-based column reference. this would make it MUCH easier to develop your h2o injection map, and having a mappable injection setup is obviously much better than a static one. i'll get there eventually!

quick question on the way you have things routed. Where do you have the 3rd port on the GM solenoid routed to, or is it capped off?

veck: it is capped off, since there is no need to route it anywhere. i also plugged the old air inlet (where the bleeder used to bleed to) which is on the intake pipe.

hth
ken

ps. recently remapped my boost map with ECU values in all but the 100% column. this way the ecu's part throttle tapering of boost is in effect. so far, so good:the fbc algorhythm seems to be handling the GM solenoid well.

in other words, you could use the above topology, along with a tps switch (as seen on my website) and DPDT relay, the stock ECU and an MBC (to "clamp" the max value) to the same effect. the DPDT relay would be energized at some value of throttle position sensor voltage, and it would:

1) disconnect the the GM solenoid from the ECU
2) switch IN a suitable "dummy" resistor (so as to avoid the CEL for a BCS failure)
3) put a steady 12vdc across the GM solenoid.

voila--MBC boost levels and response with full part throttle taper. i'll get around to trying this out sooner or later, in order to free up the UTEC boost solenoid driver circuit.

Ken,

Why the fear of PTFB when you have OLF software installed? The risk of PTFB is just that it causes lean conditions, but with OLF software in place, that won't happen. I understand the desire for rock-solid boost. I understand the desire to be able to taper boost at the upper rev ranges at WOT. But I LIKE PTFB on my car - working around it sounds terrible.

-Sean

Ken,

Why the fear of PTFB when you have OLF software installed? The risk of PTFB is just that it causes lean conditions, but with OLF software in place, that won't happen. I understand the desire for rock-solid boost. I understand the desire to be able to taper boost at the upper rev ranges at WOT. But I LIKE PTFB on my car - working around it sounds terrible.

-Sean

sean, perhaps it's the stock turbo, but i found it actually made driving around town difficult. i'd start from a stop light, for example, with a normal take off. probably light throttle to 2k or so, clutch slip into first, then giving it a bit more gas, perhaps 20 percent or so.

with the MBC only, suddenly i'd get a huge torque bump as the turbo spooled up, which was around 4k. throttle hadn't changed at all, but suddenly i was accelerating much more rapidly, and it made driving slowly (ie, past a peace officer) much more difficult.

it wasn't dangerous, since i did have OLF turned on. in fact, it was the reason i went to the OLF fuel map! ;) but it was annoying. perhaps i could have trained myself to drive around it, but it was strange to have the turbo come on when IT wanted to, rather than when *I* wanted it to.

i guess my big complaint was in power modulation, which i found much more difficult with just the MBC. i would think that with a big honkin turbo that didn't spool up until much more air was pumping through it, the problem would rear its head much less often, and would therefore be much less of an issue when putting around town.

ken

I have been looking at that MBC for some time now. From the looks of it it has just like a cable and turning the knob changes boost. Can I ask where you mounted the knob? Good write up.

After I wrote that, I guessed that was the reason. I've been on the BIG turbo diet for so long, where you will do ANYTHING to get some real boost at low revs when putting that I didn't really think of life sans lag. In fact, when I was vf34 bound, I did the same thing, even on OLF - I started scaling boost from 10psi at 30% TPS to 20psi at 80-100%.

On this beast of a turbo, boost comes on FAST...

...once you're over 4.5K revs.

-Sean

sean, perhaps it's the stock turbo, but i found it actually made driving around town difficult. i'd start from a stop light, for example, with a normal take off. probably light throttle to 2k or so, clutch slip into first, then giving it a bit more gas, perhaps 20 percent or so.

with the MBC only, suddenly i'd get a huge torque bump as the turbo spooled up, which was around 4k. throttle hadn't changed at all, but suddenly i was accelerating much more rapidly, and it made driving slowly (ie, past a peace officer) much more difficult.

it wasn't dangerous, since i did have OLF turned on. in fact, it was the reason i went to the OLF fuel map! ;) but it was annoying. perhaps i could have trained myself to drive around it, but it was strange to have the turbo come on when IT wanted to, rather than when *I* wanted it to.

i guess my big complaint was in power modulation, which i found much more difficult with just the MBC. i would think that with a big honkin turbo that didn't spool up until much more air was pumping through it, the problem would rear its head much less often, and would therefore be much less of an issue when putting around town.

ken

I have been looking at that MBC for some time now. From the looks of it it has just like a cable and turning the knob changes boost. Can I ask where you mounted the knob? Good write up.

subiekid,

the system has essentially an integrated "twist cable" (for lack of a better term, it's just like a speedometer sense cable, only a bit more robust) that adjusts the MBC spring preload bolt.

i found that the cable itself is pretty flexible, but the plastic housing that is provided is fairly stiff. this is probably done purposely, since it prevents you from running too tight a radius bend and kinking the cable. obviously the friction is reduced to a minimum when you keep the bending to a minimum too.

because the twist cable is made up of a good number of solid strands it is difficult to cut. hallman recommends using a plasma cutter, which i do not have! ;) i'm sure a dremel or other cutoff wheel would work too, but it was too much for me to take on at the time. you'd have to grind the tip down so that it does not fray. so i left the cable as long as it came from hallman, which is pretty long.

you can see where the MBC is situated underhood. the adjust cable then routes below the IC and makes a gentle arc right into the firewall hole to the outboard side of the clutch actuator.

from there, it makes a turn to the outside of the car, up under the dash, then down back towards the front of the car, then finally to the knob which i located on the driver's plastic kick pannel next to the dead pedal. it isn't the MOST convenient place to locate it, but since i didn't want to cut the twist cable i kind of had to put it where it wanted to go, to avoid tight bends and such. still, where it's located, it's out of the way, in such a place that most people would NEVER see it, and there's no way anybody but the driver could adjust it.

i find that it actually does not require much adjustment, despite weather changes, and when it does it's a quarter turn in either direction. that's enough for about a pound of manifold pressure difference. i have gotten good at reaching down while left-foot brake loading and quickly dialing in the boost i want to run. it takes literally 5 seconds.

i originally balked at the thought of spending 180 bucks on an MBC, but i have to say that this MBC is very nice and has features that you're just not going to find in any other unit. i actually went out and bought a speedo cable to see if i could make my own in this style, but the speedo cable was only really good at transmitting torque in one direction of rotation. attempting to source a cable similar to the hallman was fruitless. the ceramic ball makes a VERY good seal in the valve body and is a decent diameter (around 1/4") and the adjustment resolution, even with the "stiff" spring, is very fine.

i'll take some more pics of the install and get them up soon.

ken

Got those pics? Im really starting to worrie about my sock ECU map with my MBC and PTFB. I prob need to just get a knock link and know for sure whats going on.

ride, sent you email

i've got a pic of the route the hallman twistline takes under the ic and through the firewall:

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/hallmanline.jpg

today, i removed a tiny bleed hole from my hallman evo rs. it was "built in" to the "outlet" hose barb, so i replaced it with a brass 1/8" npt 3/16" hose barb fitting i had handy.

this resulted in overall lower boost levels, as expected, but it also resulted in more stable boost. in theory, a ball/spring mbc should not work without a bleed hole, but this works not only well, but better than with one.

i ended up giving it another whole turn to put boost back to 19psi. i had to go back through my utec open loop boost map and give it a kick in the rear... almost 100 duty to get it up that high. the map now looks like this:
78 85 92 98 100
in the 60-100 columns. only when the 100 column is hit does the boost get limited by the hallman... at 60% it is approximately 10psi, at 90% it's 17 or so.

hth
ken

veck: it is capped off, since there is no need to route it anywhere. i also plugged the old air inlet (where the bleeder used to bleed to) which is on the intake pipe.



Hi, could you clarify this for me? Do you mean that you leave the little foam filter on the solenoid, or do you mean that you SEAL UP the port? I really like your setup; I was just about to try something almost identical, but as far as I understand three port solenoids, you need to alternate the turbo outlet pressure and atmospheric pressure to the common (wastegate) port for it to work properly. I was assuming that I would pull off the little filter and route that port back into the stock fitting on the intake for the atmospheric source, as it is filtered and past the MAF. If that port is sealed, I would think that there is no way for the pressure in the wastegate actuator to fall, except through a bleed hole on the MBC

Thanks for your help,

Mark

mark, i once thought exactly the way you did. in fact, when i started futzing around this past weekend, i fully expected the boost to be uncontrollable. imagine my surprise (and joy) at finding out it was not.

when the solenoid is not energized, the pneumatic circuit is "shorted" -- the line from the nipple goes through the solenoid and right to the WGA. the common port of the solenoid goes to the nipple, the NC port is capped, and the NO port leads to the WGA.

when the solenoid is energized, the pneumatic circuit is "opened" -- ie, the line from the comp nipple to the solneoid goes NOWHERE, and the line from the solenoid to the WGA goes NOWHERE. the only "control" of boost comes from the ball+spring MBC.

i would say that there was reverse flow back through the ball+spring mbc, but when i first got it i tried to blow back through it, since i have found that the best ball+spring MBCs do NOT allow backflow. i was happy to find that it made a very admirable seal to reverse flow, so i cannot say that appreciable pressure is being lost via that route.

the last possibility is that the WGA itself has a small bleed built into it. i haven't tried the very scientific "put mouth on hose and blow" method of testing for that yet, though, so i can't tell you anything more. all i can say is that boost is more solid than ever with NO discreet/discernable bleed hole on my setup, and it doesn't "latch up" in the "limit boost" condition. ;)

hth
ken

Who'd a thunk!!! I can't argue with real-world results. I'll have to try this myself cuz it sounds so good. Thanks!

Mark

great thread. will any ball-spring MBC work? of course it won't be cockpit adjustable but that's ok. are the E-bay $20 MBCs a complete waste of money?

is it necessary to use a 1watt 10-ohm resistor in line with the GM BCS?

if i were to use a cheap E-bay MBC, is there a chance of getting boost spikes? the protection against boost spikes is a result of a high-quality MBC or is it b/c of the inherent design of this system?

what's better to use. open loop boost control or closed loop? i have an 04 and remember reading somewhere that open loop boost control was the way to go. any comments on that?


thanks for your response.

great thread. will any ball-spring MBC work? of course it won't be cockpit adjustable but that's ok. are the E-bay $20 MBCs a complete waste of money?

well, for <20 bucks you could go to home depot and cobble one together yourself. what is important is the seat of the ball which can be ascertained by attempting to blow through the mbc backwards, while closed. obviously a good seal will allow only a tiny (preferably zero) amount of reverse flow.

if you can't be bothered to DIY you can go for the ebay specials, but i have no experience with them so i can't help you much there.

is it necessary to use a 1watt 10-ohm resistor in line with the GM BCS?

no i have not had any issues leaving the resistor out.

if i were to use a cheap E-bay MBC, is there a chance of getting boost spikes? the protection against boost spikes is a result of a high-quality MBC or is it b/c of the inherent design of this system?

ball and spring mbcs are second only to bleeder types WRT spiking. if you use tubing/fittings that are too small in diameter, or too long in length, spiking is more of an issue, but generally only the most expensive EBC systems out there (avcr, oem ecu) will have a more stable/predictable response.

what's better to use. open loop boost control or closed loop? i have an 04 and remember reading somewhere that open loop boost control was the way to go. any comments on that?

honestly closed loop boost control via the utec would PROBABLY be a little bit better as it attempts to more closely control the boost via feedback from the MAP sensor. thing is, it takes more time to set up and for the rough "ramp" curve that i have set up the open loop boost control was sufficient. it does vary more WRT ambient temperature than closed loop does, but the high level clamp provided by the MBC is surprisingly absolute. i dicked around with CLB for a while but i grew impatient.

as far as one being preferable to the other on the 04s, are you sure you're not confusing open and closed loop boost control with open or closed loop fuel control? the post bugeyes should DEFINITELY use open loop fueling to combat the crossover delay programmed in those later ecus

lmk if you have any more questions.

hth
ken

thanks for the quick response. and you're right. i was confusing open loop fuel with open loop boost control. i may try tuning with closed loop boost since you said it's reacts to different ambient temperatures better. when you use closed loop boost do you have to calibrate the map sensor?

i mean, how does the UTEC know which boost values to reach and then start leaking pressure once such a boost value is reached? i don't recall there being a place to enter in such a value. basically i want to learn exactly how the closed loop boost control system works in a UTEC so i can understand it and tune it. thanks for your help. i will be trying the GM BCS soon with a cheapo MBC. i'll post up my results when i do.

the utec's closed loop boost is a strange duck. it works PRETTY well, but not nearly as accurately as a more advanced system, such as an apexi avcr, or the oem ecu. basically it DOES use feedback to alter the duty cycle of the wastegate solenoid in order to actually target a particular MAP. unfortunately the numbers are mostly unitless.. you don't just type in 14psi and have it hit it.

if you haven't done so already, download mick the ginge's guide to utec tuning which will help you out a bit.

I like Ride's MBC better than mine, but here is how I did it to get some control to my fingertips.

I used the TurboXS dual stage MBC. It is not a ball and spring BC but a bleed-off style BC similar to the ABC that comes with the UTEC. Difference is this one always has a little bleedoff, and the nipple for it's inlet port is restricted to about the same size as the stock 'pill'. That could be replaced with an open port but I just pulled out the stock restrictor and replaced it with this setup, stage 1 closed all the way.


http://x4.putfile.com/9/25212323110.jpg

http://x4.putfile.com/9/25023145837.jpg

http://x4.putfile.com/9/25023143583.jpg

Like this it acts like the ABC to give the solenoid settings a little more headroom. And by swapping the pill for this part closed I gained about 1 psi across the map. So it won't take a lot of change to the map to get it set back the way you want it.

I have stage 2 turned out 2 turns and is activated by the UTEC's built-in AND activated output solenoid. It's designed to come on over XX rpm at XX tps etc... and I use it to fightof the taper. Which is not so bad anymore now that I installed a larger helper spring.

I have a manual activate button (momentary so I have to hold it to get the 2nd stage to open on the TXS BC.) And in solid full boost situations that'll bump the boost up from about 20 to about 25? (where I rease the button in a hurry so it might go higher... I'm not that curious.) But above 5.5-6k areas it just helps the taper and keeps me well above 15 psi like I used to see.

Although it's a little outdated, I'm on the front page of this site with a list of most of my mods.

www.subarusti.org

I have been looking for a way to get that instant spool of a MBC without PTFB.

My part throttle gives part boost right now, which is nice. It used to climb steadily when in some mid-throttle position, kinda like creep, but different. I don't know if the GMBC fixed that or this combo setup. I did them within a couple of days.

But yeah, spool is quick. Lugging the motor still delivers a slow climb, which is related to the lack of PTFB situations, so I'll take it. Nailing it in 2nd or 3rd from about anywhere and it won't think twice before shoving me back in the seat. It's working well.

I set my low load sites on the boost map pretty high, then taper them back to reasonable numbers by the 60% column.

pic of interior knob:

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/hallmanknob2.JPG

^^^is that a hallman product (the flexible cable and knob) or did you put that together yourself?

Basically, I'm looking for details on the drive setup, as far as parts go.

duplicate pic posted...

^^^is that a hallman product (the flexible cable and knob) or did you put that together yourself?

Basically, I'm looking for details on the drive setup, as far as parts go.

rex, after looking long and hard for alternate ideas, i just went ahead and got the hallman evo rx.

expensive? yes.

work exactly as promised? yes.

i had thought about using a speedometer drive cable to provide torque to any old ball/spring mbc, but the issue with those is that they are not really designed to be twisted both ways. i did not want rotational compliance making me guess how much i had actually turned the screw in the mbc. then of course you have the issue of mounting it, etc.

i know that hallman does make a retrofit kit for their mbcs so that they can be remote-ized. you could probably get one of those if you really like your current mbc. if not, i can heartily recommend their mbc. the rx has the ceramic ball, and it makes the tightest internal seal i've seen yet on ball and springs. by comparison the joe-p was a tinkertoy.

I installed the mbc with my gm bcs as you show but its unresponsive. Tightening fully down or loosening all the way out does nothing. Any suggestions?

check and make sure you don't have the wrong nipples connected on the gmbcs.

at rest, with the car off, you should be able to blow from one connected nipple to the other. the car energizes the solenoid to raise boost. this will stop the flow through the solenoid.

when troubleshooting you can also disconnect the BCS entirely to make sure that your MBC plumbing is proper.

finally make sure that when you're WOT, whatever is controlling your solenoid goes to 100% duty. if you're using an oem ecu to do that, you need 100% wgdc and a boost target that's higher than you'll actually clamp it to with the MBC.

had another brainstorm come over me a couple of months ago ...

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1147599#post1147599

dual wastegates (ie internal/external).

it'll basically look like this:

http://ken-gilbert.com/wrx/dual_wastegate_topology.png

WHY you ask?

well... this way you can have your cake and eat it too:

1) retain control over relatively low boost situations by springing your IWG only hard enough to hold the max boost you desire. right now my iwg spring is around 12psi and it'll hold >27psi (tested! :devil: )...

2) the EWG only opens up when the MBC does. the MBC controls max boost only. put a spring in it sized a few psi less than the minimum boost you want to VTA. in my case i'd put a 1-1.5 bar spring in.

3) since the 3-port solenoid is controlled by some electronic means, you can map desired boost to TPS and RPM. basically if you want max boost and EWG operation you send 100% duty to the 3-port. anything less will mean the IWG is open and limiting boost to some lower value. no issues with PTFB and boost control is retained at lower levels due to the relatively light spring in the IWG.

4) car is only wicked noisy when the EWG is open. when it's not, all turboback exhaust is in normal operation... ie, cats, mufflers, etc. who cares if it is restrictive and quiet, since:

5) when the EWG opens, you get the big VE benefit of a VTA dump. and it'll be noisy too! :D

the astute may notice that, on my car, this basically entails adding the EWG up pipe and actuator, removing a tee, and rerouting one pneumatic boost control hose to the new EWG.

You'll make a number of people happy with this idea, as it's been asked a number of times. Really, I think it's quite a trick idea, giving you streetability of a cutout, plus additional performance. I suppose this would also address boost creep issues, as those only happen at WOT, correct?

pretty crazy setup, any fall backs so far?

Correct.

Sounds like a very good idea Ride. I already use your hybrid setup (except with the stock BCS) and it works very well.

pretty crazy setup, any fall backs so far? :disco:

You'll make a number of people happy with this idea, as it's been asked a number of times. Really, I think it's quite a trick idea, giving you streetability of a cutout, plus additional performance.

yes.

quiet manners on the street, whenever you're not at max boost and the ewg is venting. very similar to the cutout-equipped car with a nice quiet axleback and a cat still in the pipe.

at wot you get BETTER VE gains than the cutout car since you are not only dumping to atmosphere, you're doing it from BEFORE the turbo hotside.

otoh, you would still give up SOME performance by having the turbine gasses pass through the "restrictive" turboback exhaust (that the cutout does not do), since the turbo shaft's energy is a function of mass flow rate and pressure differential across the turbine, and one would assume that there is some additional pressure seen at the turbine outlet. then again, all of the wastegate gasses are subtracted from that post turbo exhaust pipe, so that acts to reduce the pressure seen there. it's probably close to a toss-up.

I suppose this would also address boost creep issues, as those only happen at WOT, correct?

the vta ewg def. takes care of that, whereas putting a cutout on a creeping car is going to make it worse.

For even more fun, you could get a boost activated cut out in the downpipe and also have it setup with the EWG boost line off the MBC. Then it would be full dump to Atmosphere above that limit :-p

pretty crazy setup, any fall backs so far?

well, let's be clear--i haven't tried the EWG dual wastegate idea... YET.

the hybrid ebc/mbc has been in place since a few days before i started this thread, and i haven't touched it since. :)

-snip-

For even more fun, you could get a boost activated cut out in the downpipe and also have it setup with the EWG boost line off the MBC. Then it would be full dump to Atmosphere above that limit :-p

yeah, i've looked at those cutouts (basically big wastegates) and i like them FAR better than the electrical/wormdrive/solenoid types.

there's a lot less to go wrong, there are no connectors to short out, and they don't get damaged from being stuck/jammed open or closed.

the idea of a whisper quiet car that goes ape-**** and scares women and children when you floor it appeals to me! :lol:

my wife already hates my car, so i figure what the hell. i just need to keep it quiet around the cops.

Taking this one step further, if the internal wastegate is controlled by an interupt as per your diagram, couldn't you set the max duty at 100 with a target boost that was really high at 100% throttle? That should create the following scenario:

Target boost at 18psi and WGDC normal in 85% throttle column.
Target boost at 21 psi and WGDC at 100% in 86% throttle and up column.
MBC at 19psi.

Boost below 19 psi would be controlled by the internal wastegate only.
At above 85% throttle, the target boost will jump up and drive the WGDC to 100% closing the internal gate. Boost is now controlled by the external gate only.

I haven't tested this as I don't have an external gate yet, but the theory seems sound. You could set the crossover point for whatever boost and throttle % you want. Personally I would change the 100% throttle column to a value close to the crossover (like 86% above.) That way you would have a clear switchover point and then adjust it as needed for a smooth transition.

haha, exactly. I thought of using a stock STI Cat-back to keep the car quiet, and have one of those cut outs in the downpipe set at something like 15 psi. But I never thought of doing a EWG Dump to Atmosphere along with the cutout.

Taking this one step further, if the internal wastegate is controlled by an interupt as per your diagram, couldn't you set the max duty at 100 with a target boost that was really high at 100% throttle? That should create the following scenario:

Target boost at 18psi and WGDC normal in 85% throttle column.
Target boost at 21 psi and WGDC at 100% in 86% throttle and up column.
MBC at 19psi.

Boost below 19 psi would be controlled by the internal wastegate only.
At above 85% throttle, the target boost will jump up and drive the WGDC to 100% closing the internal gate. Boost is now controlled by the external gate only.

I haven't tested this as I don't have an external gate yet, but the theory seems sound. You could set the crossover point for whatever boost and throttle % you want. Personally I would change the 100% throttle column to a value close to the crossover (like 86% above.) That way you would have a clear switchover point and then adjust it as needed for a smooth transition.

:lol: You just explained how this already works!

:lol: You just explained how this already works!Going back I see that now. I guess I didn't fully catch it the first time through. Although I don't see anything about fine control over the crossover point.

very curious to see more about this. Not so much the ewg/iwg but the manual boost controller paired with a gm solenoid. I think having that slightly slow boost response is what I like least about my car. I know a manual boost controller would get me that quick spool but I like some of the safety features of the electronic boost control. Do you know of anyone that has set this up on an 04wrx? I know those didn't do so well with mbc's like the 02/03 wrx's did.

well if it is tuned, then there is no issue as to what year of car it is.

you'll need to have your EBC, whatever it is, adjusted to default to 100% duty cycle at WOT so that the MBC will be the only component "in circuit."

the real reason that 04+ WRX "did not like" MBC is the closed loop/ open delay programming by Subaru. Once that is tuned away (very simple) then there is no difference between using Ken's MBC/ BCS hybrid method.

That's what I thought the reason was for the 04+ not liking the manual boost controller but I wasn't too sure.
has anyone used a mbc with an ewg before? Would it actually work as well or not? I'm really curious to read this over and get a fully understanding of how ken's mbc/ebc works b/c right now I'm still a little confused.
So does the vacuum source hit the mbc first or the gm solenoid first?

That's what I thought the reason was for the 04+ not liking the manual boost controller but I wasn't too sure.
has anyone used a mbc with an ewg before? Would it actually work as well or not? I'm really curious to read this over and get a fully understanding of how ken's mbc/ebc works b/c right now I'm still a little confused.
So does the vacuum source hit the mbc first or the gm solenoid first?

the pressure hits BOTH first. :)

they're in parallel.

whichever one allows pressure to flow to the wastegate first is the one "controlling" the boost.

ok. I kinda understand that but I'm still a little confused. So if you want to run 20psi you set the manual boost controller for 20psi? and keep the duty cycle of the gm solenoid as high as it will go to basically just keep it open and let the mbc limit the boost to 20psi? and because the mbc is at 20psi it will let anything below that flow through just fine and use the gm solenoid to regulate boost? So I guess with the way you have it setup the gm solenoid does most of the regulating and its only under wot that the mbc really takes affect? This sounds like an awesome idea, I'm just trying to understand how it all works.

In my hybrid setup, the boost line with the restrictor pill cracked and was leaking. But because of the hybrid setup the MBC was still able to keep boost in check :)

But I got lazy and rather than replacing the line I went to full MBC, which PTFB on the automatic works perfect. Much more enjoyable to drive the automatic WRXs this way, now if I could convince my g/f to let me swap in a manual transmission....

In my hybrid setup, the boost line with the restrictor pill cracked and was leaking. But because of the hybrid setup the MBC was still able to keep boost in check :)

But I got lazy and rather than replacing the line I went to full MBC, which PTFB on the automatic works perfect. Much more enjoyable to drive the automatic WRXs this way, now if I could convince my g/f to let me swap in a manual transmission....

Or trade her and the auto for a manual :lol:

I already have had my car protuned. 04wrx with vf34 running cobb AP. I'm using the factory boost controller with gm solenoid on my car. One thing I'm not overly fond of is boost response. I know with the vf34 it could be faster than what I've got. Its not slow but I'm confident it could be faster. I also know I don't have any leaks anywhere. Could I get a manual boost controller and hook it up just like you've got it and have it work out or am I going to run into problems? I also have an ewg is that makes a difference.

So I guess with the way you have it setup the gm solenoid does most of the regulating and its only under wot that the mbc really takes affect?

exactly.

part throttle, solenoid duty is <100%, therefore it allows some pressure signal to traverse through it and reach the actuator where it opens the wastegate and limits boost.

full throttle, solenoid duty is 100%, and can be for all intents and purposes, ignored. the only pressure signal the actuator sees is that which passes through the MBC.

now, can you turn the MBC down so that it's wide open, all the time? sure. you just get actuator spring tension boost levels (aka "wastegate boost").

just think of the MBC as a simple max boost clamp that you can adjust independently of the EBC. it will never allow boost to go above whatever its set at. (of course boost is ALWAYS uncontrollable under actuator spring tension, regardless of method.)

Cool. This actually does sound like a good idea. I'd like to give it a shot.
couple questions:
does having an ewg change anything?
also I'm currently protuned with my setup I've got now. using gm solenoid for boost control. Would adding this other one in line screw with that? I'm assuming everything would be straight except for 100% throttle and that would just need to be adjusted so the mbc would be used instead?
I guess it wouldn't hurt to try this setup and then get the car retuned.

I'm going to do this today, but I'm going to use enginuity to map it so that above 80% throttle the MBC is in charge. I currently run 21psi with meth on my 20G and will just set my boost targets to 23psi above 80% throttle so that the ecu doesn't think it's overboosting and then I can make quick changes to my WOT boost from 20-23psi. Thanks for the writeup ride!

::edit:: Looks like I'm better off not going this route right now.

:confused: ::edit:: Looks like I'm better off not going this route right now.

why?

I have an external wastegate with welded flapper and GM BCS, switching to the use of the GM BCS and MBC would require a retune of my WGDC, and I don't own a laptop or Tactrix cable, and my tuner is 8 hours away.

Very interesting. I have always been a firm advocate of the MBC but in conjuction with the BCS it does well. Who'd a thunk

I have an external wastegate with welded flapper and GM BCS, switching to the use of the GM BCS and MBC would require a retune of my WGDC, and I don't own a laptop or Tactrix cable, and my tuner is 8 hours away.

you can always talk to a local tuner around here to help you.....whos your tuner?

i know Junior at ICS will offer to help you tune it yourself. I talked to him before, and Dave @ ESP in Sterling,MA is actually very good with the gm bcs my boost is solid as hell with it, Matt @ DSG although i am not on good terms with he is still part of the developement on the open source software and i would say many people are happy with his tunes!, Mike at TDC can tun open source, and Chris @ XX will do it as well. You have TONS of local options and I am sure if you asked them and told them your situation that you just need to have the WGDC reworked because of the MBC/BCS system your switching to they may charge you for an hour of work or maybe even just have you send them the map and adjust it. Most guys have cables, i know esp does and matt at dsg does....not sure on the others....i have a cable if you need to borrow.....

also another good local NESIC member thats very good with Enginuity/Open ECU stuff is Jeremy, aka Blkscooby. pm him here or go to his personal page he just setup and email him.....

http://home.comcast.net/~tauperformance/index.html

just trying to help out and give you some local options.....i know there a few other local members that may be willing to help....bren wrx and weldinghank i know do a lot of work with open ecu stuff themselves.....

Black STI, thanks for all the suggestions. Matt at DSG tuned the car and I'm extremely happy with how it runs, this was just something to contemplate as for some reason, around 8psi, 3rd gear, v7 JDM STi 6-speed, the wastegate is starting to open. Now that I switched from interrupt to using both ports on the wastegate, it isn't opening so early. I let off the go pedal around 12ish psi anyways, but I'm at school near Buffalo, NY, quite the drive from home.

Since I have it doing what I want now anyways, I'll look into it closer and discuss it with Matt after I graduate in December. I'm probably moving away from EWG VF39 to EWG 20G/Green or IWG 20G/Green, not terribly sure yet.

- Chris

Just did this on my car and it is sweet. No more out of control spikes during part throttle. Even with the 1820, as the rpms rose about the boost threshold I really had to focus on getting the car to stay smooth by using the throttle, now its just hold at desired throttle position and smooth. May need some more refinement but so far I like it.

Quick question. Im using closed loop boost control and I have my 100% column set to all 500s so my Hallman can take over. Would the boost gain affect the spool up or would it not matter?

it's not gonna matter, from my experience, although i gave up on CLB a while ago. :)

I've found that the faster i can get my WGDC to 100%, the faster my spool is. that means putting higher numbers in the 2 right columns of th dynamics burst/continuous tables. I LOVE THIS SETUP. my 16g reaches 22psi just shy of 3500RPMs.

in the special constants menu of the utec parameters you can set "wastegate closed below MAP" from 0 (off) to 10psig. this will effectively run 100% dc regardless of what the boost map is set to.

unfortunately not available in the oem ecu... maybe someday!

This is a good idea. You could even use the OEM solenoid on the 32 bit cars. I might have to try it, set the MBC at 13 PSI and use the OE for the rest. That way all you have to do is replace the line that has the restrictor pill with an MBC.

This is a good idea.

Wrong.

It's a great idea.

Been using it for well over a year now, works amazingly well.

ride5k is my hero.

Wrong.

It's a great idea.

Been using it for well over a year now, works amazingly well.

ride5k is my hero.

Lol. I loved the response of the MBCs when I put them on cars (I ran one on my first WRX). I just don't like the fact that you have to change your boost when the temp is cold vs warm. In Texas it can go up to 90 in the day and 45-50 at night.

Thats another nice thing about the hybrid setup. Let the ECU use the comp tables to reduce the WGDC from 100% at WOT if you want to run less boost when its hot, for example. If the WGDC thru the BCS is less than 100%, you may not get the MBC to come into play.

Thats another nice thing about the hybrid setup. Let the ECU use the comp tables to reduce the WGDC from 100% at WOT if you want to run less boost when its hot, for example. If the WGDC thru the BCS is less than 100%, you may not get the MBC to come into play.

What?

If the MBC comes before the BCS (in the line where the stock restrictor pill is located), the MBC acts like a replacement WG spring, but better. Set the MBC for like say 14 psi in 70 degree weather and let the factory BCS (or aftermarket) take care of bleeding off the rest. Why would you be running 100% WGDC? You would only have to run like 20% or something like that depending on what PSI you set your MBC to and your boost targets (more WGDC if you have a 16 bit ECU though). You will have to adjust your WGDC compensation table to match your MBC setting. It would take some dialing in in different weather, but once dialed in, it would work great.

EDIT: Oh. my idea is different from Ken's. Ken runs his in parallel. My idea was to just use an MBC to replace the restrictor pill hose, in effect cutting any pressure that the BCS and WG actuator sees until a certain PSI is reached set by the MBC. Basically the MBC is an adjustable restrictor pill, but better the way I would set it up.

this might be a stupid question, but I went to the parts store to pick up a couple of T's and some vacuum hose, they didnt have any T's all they had were Y's which looks the same, do they work the same?

yep, they will work just the same.

Man i just did this with my turbo xs boost controller and holly crap its smooth!!!

what about the wastegate iat comp table, seems like if I set my wgdc to 100% in the 100% tps column that it will still drop when I have low iat in the winter (like now) so wouldnt that cause the bcs to still pass air or no?

Has anyone had any problems with their boost levels being too high.

When I had this on my 16g, I didn't have any issues- now, with the 20g, I can't run any less than 22 psi with my MBC at its minimum setting.

Weird....

Has anyone had any problems with their boost levels being too high.

When I had this on my 16g, I didn't have any issues- now, with the 20g, I can't run any less than 22 psi with my MBC at its minimum setting.

Weird....

This doesn't make sense to me.

If you use the just the EBC, does that work better?

I'm inclined to think it's boost creep.

what's your wastegate boost, mikie? hose straight from compressor to actuator gives you what?

It was like 10-12 psi when I ran it straight from the wastegate.

It's definitely not creep- it hits 20-22psi and then just holds like a rock.

any thoughts on the wgdc iat comp table when it comes to setting the 100% throttle column to 100% wgdc so that boost will be regulated by the mbc?

i'd say set your 100% TPS boost targets to something slightly above what your MBC is set to. that way, the ECU is always trying to acheive target but can't.

yes. set the target at 100% tps to something like 30psi, for example. the intention is to peg the electrical solenoid at 100% duty.

depending on the setup, getting close to 100% may be sufficient, but 100% is the only way to be certain it's JUST the mbc in the loop.

yes. set the target at 100% tps to something like 30psi, for example. the intention is to peg the electrical solenoid at 100% duty.

depending on the setup, getting close to 100% may be sufficient, but 100% is the only way to be certain it's JUST the mbc in the loop.

Yeah thats what I figured, my only concern was that as of right now when I do datalogs I see a reduction in wgdc because of the temp outside. So I assumed that I would see the same thing when its set to 100% and the temp drops, so I thought maybe I should change some stuff around in the wgdc iat comp table. So if I set the target boost to 25 psi, but I am shooting for 22 psi with the mbc and I set the wgdc to 100% in the 100% column it will still hold if the wgdc comp table drops the wgdc to something like 97% or 94%?

Ok so i just redid this mod but im back to the stock EBC and using the halman. I reflashed my stock ecu with a stage 2 map thats slightly tuned. But how would i tune it for this???

you just need to make sure that the boost control solenoid runs 100% duty cycle when at WOT, leaving the MBC as the only device in the loop.

you just need to make sure that the boost control solenoid runs 100% duty cycle when at WOT, leaving the MBC as the only device in the loop.

gotcha...do i set my MBC to hit target boost or just above it?

the mbc should be used to set your target boost, since nothing else will be limiting boost while at WOT.

ok so i gm bcs (in 2port operation) and a protune for 18.5 psi. if i were to do this setup would i see any improvement and would i have to get another tune? also a buddy of mine sold me a hallman for next to nothing. so i have all the parts at hand.

you will need to run in 3-port mode and will require a complete retune.

Allright guys, I need some help. I installed the GM silinoid/Hallman MBC setup on my car about a week ago, and cannot seem to get it to work right. Its hooked up Compressor nipple to tee, one end of tee to MBC and other end of tee to BCS. (Yes I have tripple checked to make sure they are hooked to the corect ports on both the BCS and MBC) Port two on BCS runs to tee, one end to Wastegate, other to output port of MBC. port 3 on BCS (originally the one with small filter) runs bact to intake. Now with it hooked up in this manner and the stiff spring in the MBC cranked all the way down, and the BCS at 100% duty, I can still only make about 16lbs of boost, and I don't get it till about 5500rpm. To me it seems like the MBC is not holding pressure. Has anyone ever heard of a Hallman MBC failing? It seems unlikely do to the simplisity of the design, but I suppose it is possible. Sorry for the long winded post, but my question is, does anyone else know why, essentially, to much air is getting to the wastegate.
Relivent mods are UTEC, TD0518G with frontmount, no restrictor pill. (although tested with and without) TXS catless turboback exaust, and K & N intake.

are you sure you're plugged into the normally open pneumatic port on the solenoid?

get a hemostat or a small pair of locking pliers and clamp off the feed to the solenoid completely to remove it from the equation entirely.

also, are you SURE you have a stiff spring in the hallman? mine came with a soft spring installed and i had to swap it out.

finally have you EVER made more than 16psi with this turbo? what is the wastegate tension set to?

are you sure you're plugged into the normally open pneumatic port on the solenoid?
Yes, tried taking the MBC out of the equation, and put lower numbers in my map and easily hit my targets, so the solenoid is working properly.

get a hemostat or a small pair of locking pliers and clamp off the feed to the solenoid completely to remove it from the equation entirely.
Did that as well, and only hit 10psi with just MBC.

also, are you SURE you have a stiff spring in the hallman? mine came with a soft spring installed and i had to swap it out.
Yes, tried both to be sure, but definatly have the stiff spring.

finally have you EVER made more than 16psi with this turbo? what is the wastegate tension set to?
Yes, turbo has made over 20 (first test with restrictor still in place)


I talked to hallman yesterday, and they told me that sometimes the MBC can stick. I think that even though I cranked the knob with both hands till it stoped it was only about 6 turns from fully open with the heave spring, so today after work I am going to try a few drops of pneumatic oil in it and see if I can loosen it up and crank it down somemore. That is about the only thing left that I can think of. Thanks for the quick reply, and Props for comeing up with this setup.

so of all this hybrid talk, could you run a dual stage MBC in line with the stock BCS with a stock EM tune? let stage 1 of the MBC open so that it doesnt touch boost, and allows the BCS to do all the work and cure PTFB, then set stage 2 of the MBC to your max boost ( lets say 16 psi) take over once at WOT and the BCS is no longer in control. so it would be routed..... compressor nipple----> dual stage MBC------> stock t fitting----->BCS. the other end of the stock t fitting goes to the wastegate. hows this setup sound

you might have to partially disassemble the dual stage mbc so that you could ensure that the pressure signal is in no way obstructed from the WGA while the 1st stage was active, but otherwise i don't see a reason why it wouldn't work.

you could probably save money by just using a discreet solenoid (grainger/perrin/gm) and separate mbc though.

Ken, you are THE MAN. I just ordered a Hallman unit and can't wait to put it in.

Also, I'm interested in your thoughts as to what RPM that you think the EJ20x is starting to reach the point where exhaust gasses are better routed through the WG instead of the turbine with the TD04. Your reasoning is solid in that at some point the turbine becomes the flow limiting factor and excessive back pressure results with no manifold pressure gains. I just wonder what that point is.

Buck

buck, i don't really know.

i know there is some point at which you get much diminishing returns, but i do not bother tapering boost. i played around with boost tapering when it was the "hot topic" around here like 4 years ago, but i tired of it. for the amount of time i actually spend at 6k rpms and up it is just not worth my trouble... ie, i've got everything i need for a very nice ADI rig but i have no time to install it! :( i'd rather spend my time elsewhere.

that said i know crazymikie has an ej207 and the last time he was on the dyno he picked up a little bit of power by reducing duty cycle/relaxing wastegate tension on the high end. this was ~7-8500 rpms and with a td06 w 8cm housing iirc.

Ok. I think that I'll experiment a bit. I installed the ceramic ball and spring Hallman MBC. It's the same one that you have minus the remote. I'm loving the rock solid boost.

Anyway, I guess I'll start out by keeping WGDC at 100% till redline, then comparing Vmaf at lesser WGDC to see what how they compare. If Vmaf actually goes up at lesser WGDC, I'll keep reducing it until Vmaf starts going down.

Ken -
I have an HKS MBC that I was going to go with this setup, even tried it, but it seemed to almost be all-or-none. I'm still using the OE EBCS, and had the 100% tps boost column at 17psi. In trying to dial the MBC in to a~20psi, it would blow past 20, and I'd immediately let off, as it shot up to the mid-high 20s (almost instantly). The MBC has "click" settings, and I've narrowed the range down to a couple clicks. clicked down, it hits 14-15psi. a couple clicks up, and it goes deep into the 20s.
Further investigation, I see no "bleed hole" or anything on the MBC, like I'm used to seeing on past MBCs.. I sure wish it was remote to in-cabin, as hood popping gets old very fast LOL

i don't know if this setup works with the OE Bleed setup. or atleast i can't visualize in my head how it would.

you rang? :)

to put it in perspective, i'm also running around 30 psi peak, using an STi TMIC and have water/meth injection going.

i found out in the top end, that i wasn't making power by trying to keep boost up- it was more beneficial to back down boost and advance the intake cam timing a bit and that suddenly yielded a 10 whp difference. WAHHOOOOOO! that says to me that i was getting too much backpressure and the motor was unhappy.

my thoughts on tuning boost- set your wastegate duty cycle constant across the whole rpm range and target a very low boost level. slowly increase the wgdc and you will see the natural taper that the turbo wants to run. if you add duty cycle and you don't make more power, you should check to see if boost levels increased or not. if they didn't, it means that you have hit the limit or your wastegate is blowing open.

i don't use any more duty cycle than i need to make optimum power. it's the same as anything else- if you add more and it doesn't help, then don't do it. you just run more liability by putting more strain on the motor without any benefit.

going back to my stockish days, i found that tapering my wgdc helped with my td04 as well. there's not point in increasing shaft speed if you aren't getting more power.

hope that helps.

mike
buck, i don't really know.

i know there is some point at which you get much diminishing returns, but i do not bother tapering boost. i played around with boost tapering when it was the "hot topic" around here like 4 years ago, but i tired of it. for the amount of time i actually spend at 6k rpms and up it is just not worth my trouble... ie, i've got everything i need for a very nice ADI rig but i have no time to install it! :( i'd rather spend my time elsewhere.

that said i know crazymikie has an ej207 and the last time he was on the dyno he picked up a little bit of power by reducing duty cycle/relaxing wastegate tension on the high end. this was ~7-8500 rpms and with a td06 w 8cm housing iirc.

Ok, maybe I've either spent too much time thinking about it, or I've totally missed it, either in this thread, or from stupidity..

Say, you have your Boost tables set for 16psi.. and your MBC set for, say, 20..
With my setup (EWG, 3" intake, stock BCS.. grainger on the way).
vac. line from compressor housing to one of the BCS ports. Wastegate port line to the "out" of the MBC, and the "IN" of the MBC to the other port on the BCS..

Wouldn't the MBC always control the boost level, aside from your right foot?
I no longer have the factory "T" and pill in my setup..

The way it works is by running them in parallel, not in series. When the MBC in your example is below 20psi, it is always closed, so the factory system works as normal. If you had a spike over 20psi, the MBC would help control it by bypassing the factory system.

like this?

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/71/setupmbcrg6.jpg

yup, you got it.

Ironically, I just got my Grainger/IR solenoid in the mail today. I'ma hook it up in the morning, before work.
I'm assuming I connect:
Port1 = charge-side of turbo
Port2 = wastegate
Port3 = VTA via filter
MBC = paralleled across Ports 1/2

?


Edit: My current Boost table:

[Table3D]12 24 36 49 63 76 88 100
2000 1.86 3.87 3.87 4.80 4.80 4.80 5.88 7.89
2500 7.89 8.82 10.83 13.61 16.71 17.17 17.17 17.79
3000 7.89 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
3500 9.90 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
4000 9.90 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
4500 9.90 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
5000 9.90 10.83 11.91 13.61 15.78 17.17 18.87 18.87
5500 9.90 10.83 11.91 13.61 15.78 17.17 18.87 18.87
6500 7.89 7.89 11.91 13.61 14.85 17.17 17.94 17.94


WGDC:

[Table3D]12 24 36 49 63 76 88 100
2000 32.0 32.0 32.0 96.1 96.1 96.1 96.1 99.6
2500 32.0 35.2 64.8 75.0 89.5 95.3 99.6 99.6
3000 32.0 48.0 53.1 66.0 82.4 94.1 99.6 99.6
3500 39.8 48.0 53.1 66.0 82.4 83.6 96.1 97.3
4000 39.8 44.1 53.1 66.0 81.2 83.6 92.6 87.9
4500 39.8 44.1 53.1 66.0 81.2 83.6 90.2 87.9
5500 39.8 44.1 53.1 66.0 81.2 81.2 87.9 78.5
6500 32.0 32.0 53.1 66.0 81.2 81.2 87.9 77.3


With stock BCS on a Precision GT32 and Tial EWG (15psi spring) only max boosts to 15.3..
What am I missing, here, and what's the best method to adjust the tables to accommodate the addition of the Grainger/MBC combo?

Cut those duty cycles WAY back. And then slowly raise them until you start reaching your targets.

bump....

So I am seriously looking into this. I only have one question. Is there any way to taper boost up top? I can easily run 22psi in the midrange, but on 92 pump it knocks if i run that much up top. I really this idea a lot but I need to retain the ability to taper boost top end. Could you just drop the duty cycle down a bit up top and let the ECU take back over tapering boost? My duty cycles are only like 15 or so up top so Im thinking this would create a huge dip in the boost going from 100 WGDC down to 15 or so. I would think it would way overshoot it and end up with a dippy boost curve, which would be totally defeating the purpose of rock solid boost control :D

Any ideas? Or should i just put my meth kit on and run 22psi to redline :lol:

Edit: for clarification this is with an EVOIII16G with tial 38mm EWG and the gm 3 port. I'm on the brink of ordering a hallman today if i can figure out if i can still taper the boost or not. it sure would be nice to be able to adjust my boost w/o reflashing every time. And much cheaper than something like the HKS :D

the MBC only provides a maximum boost clamp. you are free to run anything between your wastegate pressure and what the MBC is set at via tuning the duty cycle on your electronic boost control. that can be with a third party controller or the oem ecu.

I realize that it's possible to do, but does it work well? I seem to remember you saying you gave up on tapering boost a long time ago. Does this mean you just miss out on some midrange and run as much boost across the board as your gas lets you at redline? or do you use meth injection or something that allows you to run a flat boost curve without sacrificing midrange?

I think you have a great idea here I just want to fully understand it's capabilities before i buy this MBC.

I see the most boost waver currently after my map tapers from 21psi down to 18-19, it cant seem to hold a steady psi after it tapers. The best i can get is within 1/2 to 3/4 of a psi. I've played with my WGDC for weeks trying to get it perfect.

I think i need to just get my damn meth kit on and forget about tapering boost :P I think thats when this idea really shines. It just seems like it would defeat the whole purpose of rock solid boost response to taper the boost off up top and let the ECU go back to controlling it where the MBC is needed the most.

What do you think ride?

edit: F it, i bought one. I take it you recommend putting the heavier spring in first Ride?

Cut those duty cycles WAY back. And then slowly raise them until you start reaching your targets.
Hey! You're never on AIM, huh? lol

At any rate, here's my final WG and Boost tables, with the Grainger solenoid:

WGDC:

[Table3D]12 24 36 49 63 76 88 100
2000 32.0 32.0 44.9 99.6 99.6 99.6 99.6 99.6
2500 32.0 35.2 34.4 89.1 99.6 99.6 99.6 99.6
3000 32.0 48.0 35.9 80.1 96.5 99.6 99.6 99.6
3500 39.8 48.0 35.9 70.7 87.1 88.3 99.6 99.6
4000 39.8 44.1 35.9 70.7 85.9 88.3 99.6 99.6
4500 39.8 44.1 35.9 70.7 85.9 88.3 93.8 99.6
5500 39.8 44.1 35.9 70.7 85.9 85.9 89.1 99.6
6500 32.0 32.0 35.9 70.7 85.9 85.9 89.1 99.6Boost:

[Table3D]12 24 36 49 63 76 88 100
2000 1.86 3.87 3.87 4.80 4.80 4.80 5.88 7.89
2500 7.89 8.82 10.83 13.61 16.71 17.17 17.17 17.79
3000 7.89 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
3500 9.90 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
4000 9.90 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
4500 9.90 11.45 11.91 13.61 16.71 18.10 18.87 18.87
5000 9.90 10.83 11.91 13.61 15.78 17.17 18.87 18.87
5500 9.90 10.83 11.91 13.61 15.78 17.17 18.87 18.87
6500 7.89 7.89 11.91 13.61 14.85 17.17 17.94 17.94

my boost ramp is quite steep. When I had the setup at 15psi, here's the graphed ramping..

Kinda like getting rear-ended by a bus ;)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8397/boostrampvv6.jpg

my boost ramp is quite steep. When I had the setup at 15psi, here's the graphed ramping..

Kinda like getting rear-ended by a bus ;)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8397/boostrampvv6.jpg

I believe you are still way too high on the WGDC for part throttle. I run the Grainger as well and am running

12 24 36 49 63 76 88
0.0 10.2 12.1 15.6 23.0 30.5 38.3

For my part throttle boost.

At your current levels you might as well just be using the MBC. You will easily hit PTFB without the MBC.

Your target boost is way too high for part throttle. You should run more conservative numbers for part throttle. I actually kinda stick close to stock for these.

Ironically, I just got my Grainger/IR solenoid in the mail today. I'ma hook it up in the morning, before work.
I'm assuming I connect:
Port1 = charge-side of turbo
Port2 = wastegate
Port3 = VTA via filter
MBC = paralleled across Ports 1/2

?


This is incorrect
The grainger ports are marked differently than the Perrin but on the grainger

Port 1 is VTA or return to intake they work the same.(perrin port2)
Port 2 is for Wastegate (perrin port1)
Port 3 is for Charge side of turbo. (perrin port3)

The grainger is the same as the perrin so check these instructions for clarity
Perrin Boost Control solenoid PDF (http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/PERRIN/documents/instructions/universal/asmint720.pdf)
http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/products/64/227_large.jpg
You want the fast response setup. Slow response is bleed type like the Factory. I believe you may have set it up to be this way so you basically did nothing but mimic the factory BCS. The factory BCS doesn't work with this setup because of the bleed. Just change your connections around and you'll be fine.

PM me if you have any questions or want some WGDC tables to start with. Just let me know your Target boost and I can get you in the right direction.

Hey! You're never on AIM, huh? lolNot very often any more. I used to be on there constantly...

I realize that it's possible to do, but does it work well?

yes, it works perfectly.

I seem to remember you saying you gave up on tapering boost a long time ago. Does this mean you just miss out on some midrange and run as much boost across the board as your gas lets you at redline?

you can run as much boost as you WANT to run. afr and timing are the other parts of the trinity and those can compensate for any amount of boost.

i gave up on tapering because it was just too little bang for the buck. i turned my attention to other things. up to that point in time i didn't see any advantage to doing it anyway. crazymikie, whose opinion i respect, has pointed out he DID pick up a couple of ponies by tapering and running more advance. perhaps one day i'll screw around with it some more, but it's not on my short list.
or do you use meth injection or something that allows you to run a flat boost curve without sacrificing midrange?

no, i basically just run the **** out of the turbo. 25psi is the midrange boost. it tapers itself down to around 21 at redline. it's only a "little" vf23.. ;)

I think you have a great idea here I just want to fully understand it's capabilities before i buy this MBC.

just like i said, do not think of this in any other way than a "plain jane" interrupt style boost controller. this one just happens to have a "failsafe" overboost protection that kicks in no matter what you happen to be doing with your EBC.

this frees you up to totally disregard boost spikes. there's no such thing as a spike anymore, at least none that exceed the level of boost your mbc is set to. it is still possible to get boost oscillations and such when you're trying to target lower boost at part throttle, but you're not going to "overboost" in the classical sense of exceeding your intended max boost.

I see the most boost waver currently after my map tapers from 21psi down to 18-19, it cant seem to hold a steady psi after it tapers. The best i can get is within 1/2 to 3/4 of a psi. I've played with my WGDC for weeks trying to get it perfect.

assuming you're using the oem ecu as an ebc, this sounds like a problem with proportion/integral settings.

I think i need to just get my damn meth kit on and forget about tapering boost :P I think thats when this idea really shines. It just seems like it would defeat the whole purpose of rock solid boost response to taper the boost off up top and let the ECU go back to controlling it where the MBC is needed the most.

that depends what your goals are. there are benefits to opening the wastegate at high rpms that crazymikie has observed. no matter what boost control you use, the benefits are the same. with an mbc you don't have the option to taper. with the hybrid setup you do.

edit: F it, i bought one. I take it you recommend putting the heavier spring in first Ride?

assuming you're talking about the hallman, then yes. the weaker spring is designed for smaller boost levels.

hth
ken

Ok so i got my Hallman Evo RX pro installed today. I hooked it up exactly like in the picture above. one side of the solenoid goes to the top of the EWG and Ting into the bottom of the MBC. the other side of the solenoid goes to the compressor nipple with a T to the side of the EWG, along with another T to the front of the MBC.

No matter where i put the MBC, when im in the cells that are set to 100% boost and 25psi on my map, it never stops the boost. I let off as soon as it spikes above 20

i've tried it with the MBC totally screwed clockwise, and totally screwed counter clockwise.

Do i need to do it differently with the EWG? It makes me wonder because in the MBC directions, they said when using an EWG you just put one side of the MBC to the SIDE of the wastegate, and the other side to the compressor nipple and just leave the top of the wastegate open.

How exactly should this be hooked up with an EWG?

Although i will note one thing, the spool is INSANE! lol

i run an EWG, too (TIAL 46mm)..
mine it on the side port. Top port is VTA with a small filter. Grainger EBCS ports 2/3 is paralleled to my MBC.

i run an EWG, too (TIAL 46mm)..
mine it on the side port. Top port is VTA with a small filter. Grainger EBCS ports 2/3 is paralleled to my MBC.

so explain the whole setup would ya? Just to make sure i understand exactly what you are saying.

and where'd ya get the filter for the top port?

so it goes from the solenoid to SIDE of the wastegate. T'd to the bottom of the MBC

then from the solenoid to the compressor nipple. T'd to the side of the MBC

so i switched things around and had a hell of a time. how i originally had it set up, 0 wgdc was wastegate spring pressure boost. now when i switched it around 100% is wastegate spring pressure. That doesnt seem right...

I have a domtune solenoid, so i'm not sure how it's labled compared to the perrin and grainger. are they all set up physicly the same?

It's labeled IN EXH OUT

compared to the perrin

EXH is perrin port 2
IN is 3 and OUT is port 1

The way i originally had it hooked up is the way perrin's instruction suggest and has always worked great. It makes more sense to me that to be able to build boost the solenoid has to energize. I would think the solenoid would last much longer that way.

Just for some reason i couldn't get the MBC to work right just T'ing it in on each side of the solenoid. Unless I just had to flip the MBC around? Maybe i'll try that tomorrow :P

simon: simplify the situation and reconnect stuff 1 thing at a time.

run hose from compressor to actuator and make sure the wg operates properly. this is your "min boost."

then put the MBC in the way and make sure IT operates properly. this is your "max boost."

then put the solenoid in the circuit. make sure that the two ports that flow when the thing is unplugged are the two you use to shunt around the mbc.

test drive the car and make sure that with 0% duty you get wastegate, and 100% duty you get mbc.

finally you can start tuning the rest of your part throttle boost targets.

simon: simplify the situation and reconnect stuff 1 thing at a time.

run hose from compressor to actuator and make sure the wg operates properly. this is your "min boost."

then put the MBC in the way and make sure IT operates properly. this is your "max boost."

then put the solenoid in the circuit. make sure that the two ports that flow when the thing is unplugged are the two you use to shunt around the mbc.

test drive the car and make sure that with 0% duty you get wastegate, and 100% duty you get mbc.

finally you can start tuning the rest of your part throttle boost targets.

When you say run the hose from the compressor to actuator, which side of the EWG is the actuator? the top or the side?

Also does it matter which way the EBC goes? I take it IN is from the compressor nipple and OUT is to the wastegate.

EDIT: Tial says with an EBC to hook it up like i originally had it

compressor nipple to solenoid with a T to the SIDE of the wastegate
TOP of wastegate to solenoid

thats it.

now with a MBC they say to hook it up different.

compressor nipple to MBC
MBC to side of wastegate
top of wastegate VTA

Hence my confusion.

I got it figured out. My solenoid must be different, as the 2 ports that are open when it's unhooked are ports 1 and 3 (on the perrin diagram)

it works perfectly now.

My only question is this. It seems to take longer than i expected for my WGDC to ramp up to 100% when i hit the gas. Heres the plot of RPM vs WGDC vs manifold corrected. Is there any way to make this ramp up faster? It takes ~700 rpms to ramp up to 100% WGDC and I would imagine thats killing my spool.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii298/kadesullivan/MBCplot.jpg

also to clarify my install, i am using the 2 ports on the solenoid that are OPEN when its not energized. one side goes to the compressor nipple T'd to the MBC, other side goes to the SIDE of the EWG, T'd to the MBC.

I also ment to add that as you can see, tapering it still worked perfectly just like Ken said it would. Although I need to adjust my WGDC a little bit, it didnt oscilate at all compared to what I expected.

You can get faster duty ramp up by rescaling the turbo dynamics.

You can get faster duty ramp up by rescaling the turbo dynamics.

thats what I thought. I actually have a map made with the turbo dynamics cranked up a bit.

could you post up what you would suggest a setting be? I had my turbo dynamics flattened out quite a bit compared to stock and had my boost about perfect before i decided to complicate things and use this method! I think it will be much better once i get it dialed in, but im just curious what kind of numbers you suggest. Also would you scale both continuous and burst?

My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.31 0.31 0.50 1.70 2.94 4.51 7.00
-3.75 -1.50 -0.25 0.10 0.87 10.00 25.00 75.00 100.00

As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.77 0.00 0.31 0.77 1.70 2.94 4.51
-5.50 -2.50 -1.35 0.00 0.54 1.35 7.00 22.00 45.00

My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.31 0.31 0.50 1.70 2.94 4.51 7.00
-3.75 -1.50 -0.25 0.10 0.87 10.00 25.00 75.00 100.00As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.77 0.00 0.31 0.77 1.70 2.94 4.51
-5.50 -2.50 -1.35 0.00 0.54 1.35 7.00 22.00 45.00

wow thats insanely aggresive. with my EWG i barely need 20% WGDC to sustain 20psi. Although that does give me the idea to rescale the top of the table and include something like your last column on there. That way if there is a large boost difference it just lets the MBC spool it up. I'll have to try that tomorrow.

wow thats insanely aggresive. with my EWG i barely need 20% WGDC to sustain 20psi. Although that does give me the idea to rescale the top of the table and include something like your last column on there. That way if there is a large boost difference it just lets the MBC spool it up. I'll have to try that tomorrow.Did you try it out?

I was just looking at one of my last datalogs and I'm able to go from 0% to 98% duty cycle in less than .2 seconds.

Did you try it out?

I was just looking at one of my last datalogs and I'm able to go from 0% to 98% duty cycle in less than .2 seconds.

It works awesome. I am really loving the boost control now. Plus it's nice to be able to adjust the boost in the cabin. it was colder this morning and i noticed right away i was boostin 22.5 instead of 21.5, a quick turn of the dial and back to where it should be.

I love it! Plus if I ever take it in to be serviced i can dial the boost back down to wastegate pretty quickly and easily without flashing another map

if you do your own tuning, it is very handy to be able to target different load columns for logging purposes by just turning a knob. you can get a lot of surface mapped out quickly.

I got it figured out. My solenoid must be different, as the 2 ports that are open when it's unhooked are ports 1 and 3 (on the perrin diagram)

it works perfectly now.

also to clarify my install, i am using the 2 ports on the solenoid that are OPEN when its not energized. one side goes to the compressor nipple T'd to the MBC, other side goes to the SIDE of the EWG, T'd to the MBC.

Is this diagram accurate for how you have yours hooked up?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Kjott21/Random/HYBRIDSETUPEWGcopy.jpg
I am contemplating this setup to get rid of my boost oscillation that I had when I got tuned.

Thats exactly how i have it hooked up. Ports 1 and 3 are the 2 ports that are OPEN when the car is off.

All I have to say is I absolutely love this setup. It made tuning for boost an afternoon drive instead of a week of tuning. I am learning tuning pretty quick but I have been using an extra gas tank a week doing it. Anything to cut that down is awesome.

I am starting to think it may be possible to run this system on the stock bcs has anybody made an attempt to do this. The setup will be different and have 3 tee's but It may just work. I am a little unsure though.

I just went from a hallman mbc to GM BCS for the ability to taper, but I wasn't happy with seeing full boost 700 rpms later. I gotta try this!

I just went from a hallman mbc to GM BCS for the ability to taper, but I wasn't happy with seeing full boost 700 rpms later. I gotta try this!

with my vf30 at altitude I get 15 psi in first and 18 psi in second in a drag race type situation. If I am in second gear and punch it at like 4000 RPM i get max boost. Now this could be done with the 3 port BCS but It is a lot of work and time to eliminate spikes. This is so easy plus I can easily check out different boost levels to see which one flows the most air. It is a nice setup.

My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.31 0.31 0.50 1.70 2.94 4.51 7.00
-3.75 -1.50 -0.25 0.10 0.87 10.00 25.00 75.00 100.00

As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.77 0.00 0.31 0.77 1.70 2.94 4.51
-5.50 -2.50 -1.35 0.00 0.54 1.35 7.00 22.00 45.00

I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables :confused: Where do charts and maps like these come from?

I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables :confused: Where do charts and maps like these come from?
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/Kjott21/Photoshop/Tables.jpg

lmao I was about to come into this thread with "you have to be kidding me calling this a new idea, ride5000 did it years ago"


oops :lol:

I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables :confused: Where do charts and maps like these come from?

From Enginuity with old ROM definitions.
The terminology was fixed quite a while ago, but this thread is kinda old.

lmao I was about to come into this thread with "you have to be kidding me calling this a new idea, ride5000 did it years ago"


oops :lol:

i think the heat down there is getting to you, dave.

;) :lol:

I've been using Ken's method of boost control on my internal one-port wastegate for a while now and it is THE best way to set boost. Bar none.

However, those that have an external wastegate can only use the bottom port if they want to use this method of setting boost. Until now, maybe...

For reference, let's start with the following diagram.
http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v272/124/12/2014879/n2014879_48624986_9678.jpg
System 1 - Limit max WDC to 50% to achieve equal pressure at top/bottom port if MBC is disregarded

1) Via tuning, limit max duty cycle to your 3-port solenoid to exactly 50%. This will be the equivalent of running the wastegate with no boost signal lines connected to it. If the top port and bottom port both see the same pressure, boost will sky rocket and hit super high numbers.
2) Install an 'inverse' MBC between the top port and the normally closed (NC) port on the solenoid. This is the port that is closed when the solenoid is off or at 0% duty cycle.
3) Because you have limited duty cycle on the solenoid to 50%, you can now limit pressure to the top port by using your MBC in an inverse fashion. Loose allows more air pressure to reach the top port. This will build more boost. Tight on the MBC or closed will allow less/no air to reach the top port and only the bottom port will see pressure.
4) Profit?

Okay, here are some examples.
WDC = 0%
Pressure will go from Turbo -> IN -> NO -> bottom port only

WDC = 50%
Pressure will go from Turbo -> IN => NC and NO equally. Then you tighten the inverse MBC to limit boost by restricting air to the top port

WDC = 100%
Pressure will not reach the bottom port and blow your **** up.

This system gives you a range of boost options. If you find the boost to be too high even with the inverse MBC at full tight, lower your max WDC and divert more air to the bottom port. If boost is too low even with the inverse MBC at full open, divert more air to the top port by increasing WDC.

Assumptions :
1)50% WDC = equal pressure at the normally open (NO) and normally closed (NC) ports.
2) You are going to start your tuning by keeping the MBC at its tightest sitting and your WDC low. Then gradually increase max WDC to something less than 50%. Then start opening the MBC once your WDC ramps up to a number below 50% and stays solid the entire time at WOT.

Advantages :
1) You can use the top port on your external wastegate for maximum boost.
2) You can be mad 1337.


This is just a theory at this point which will be tested by me at some point in the future. But please, add to this discussion and let's hear your thoughts on whether this will work or not.


Update : Damn, I was making things way too difficult.
Here's the new diagram.
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v272/124/12/2014879/n2014879_48626337_422.jpg
System 2 - max WDC can be 100% to achieve equal pressure at top/bottom port if MBC is disregarded

Everything works the same but now you don't have to worry about limiting yourself to only 50% max WDC. Run 100% WDC as long as you have an inverse MBC between the NC and top port on the wastegate. System 1 above is still 'superior' if you are trying to keep the wastegate shut past what the spring + exhaust gas backpressure wants to do. But most people don't need that. The key to getting this to work is the concept of an 'inverse' MBC.

So you can't use the stock BCS or can you? I read earlier in the thread of someone running this setup with the stock BCS and he said it worked good..... can you use just a stock BCS and ecu with a MBC and it will work?

So you can't use the stock BCS or can you? I read earlier in the thread of someone running this setup with the stock BCS and he said it worked good..... can you use just a stock BCS and ecu with a MBC and it will work?

there are ways to hook up an oem bcs and a ball/spring interrupt mbc to be used together, but they will not result in the same characteristics as you see here.

there are ways to hook up an oem bcs and a ball/spring interrupt mbc to be used together, but they will not result in the same characteristics as you see here.

The reason for this is a 3 port works a lot like a mbc works it allows manifold pressure to back up then at a point(activated BCS or Open MBC) it will open the wastegate. The stock system is the opposite. It allows air to bleed off through a tee and then closes the leak to open the wastegate. There is no way to set it up to work properly because air would be blowing out the stock bcs and never be able to open the MBC.

I installed the same HBC RX last night ride ;) For the STI the small spring was enough. All the way to the left 10 psi, far to the right 21psi. Then again I have no pill and am running a prodrive BCS.

In any case I'm flashing a new ROM in a bit. Anything over 87% throttle and the ECU says eff it, 100% WGDC. I might also alter my turbo dynamics a bit.

Its nice to have that set upper bound!

Old thread and good stuff.

I'll post results when I get the chance.

What else besides the wgdc and boost targets are you guys altering? How much of the wgdc throttle % area would you alter for this?

bump for above question and, any chance you want to take a screenshot of your target boost and wgdc? Im wondering how these tables interact with those two...

My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.31 0.31 0.50 1.70 2.94 4.51 7.00
-3.75 -1.50 -0.25 0.10 0.87 10.00 25.00 75.00 100.00

As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

-2.94 -1.70 -0.77 0.00 0.31 0.77 1.70 2.94 4.51
-5.50 -2.50 -1.35 0.00 0.54 1.35 7.00 22.00 45.00

Great thread guys. Shamoo from iwsti pointed this to me.

Ive got a grainger 3-port and a tial f38 prepared to go on my STI and am going to ask my tuner to look into adding the hallman and doing this.

Is there a consensus as to the best setup on the EWG? (just bottom port OR bottom + top)?

Here's my grainger by the way (never mind my own #'s):

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p99/drxt78/ingersolrandEBCS002.jpg

Very informative things are there to get through

_____________________________
Xenon Kits (http://www.hidxenonkits.co.uk)

Iwas running this setup a while ago but took it off to do some stock ECU tuning. I switched back to my UTEC and decided that I wanted to put the hybrid setup back on.

Interesting thing to note for me. When using closed loop boost control in the UTEC, with my boost set to '1' in all TPS and RPM columns I would still hit 19psi.

I switched to Open loop and at 1% duty I am at 13.5 psi which is a little greater than wastegate pressure. I dont know why the closed loop was acting like that but looks like Ill be using open loop for part throttle.

I just switched over to this setup on my car. This setup is awesome! I haven't started tuning for spool yet but this has gotten rid of my boost spikes. I have the MBC set to 1psi below my ECU tune of 20psi and its solid at 19/19.5 psi in 4th and 5th! I love it and I'm sure my engine loves it. =) Next I will try to make the turbo spool faster with more WGDC down low.

Everyone should be using a 3-port along with the MBC! The MBC and the EBC keep each other in check in the event one fails. It's awesome.

I'm not sure its wise to just run crazy values like 100 wgdc through the WOT column and unrealistic boost targets though. If the MBC failed or if someone gave your MBC a few turns without you knowing, you could blow your engine.

This is true. When I was tuning the MBC I was at 15PSI to redline, my car actually knocked in that area. I would never had known if it weren't for the MBC.

if you do your own tuning, it is very handy to be able to target different load columns for logging purposes by just turning a knob. you can get a lot of surface mapped out quickly.

Well, I've been using this method since April and am still VERY happy with it. I've been using the lighter spring, which seems to work fine at my current boost level (22psi). What springs are you guys running with your Hallman units? When does it become necessary to switch to the heavy spring? I was thinking of putting my heavy spring in to see how it works for myself, but I freakin lost it. Hallman hasn't replied to my email for a replacement either.

BTW, I'm now rockin a DB Super 16g and lovin it! 21psi at redline makes it a totally different car.

Buck