My normal car petered out so I took the wife's :)

First time on the road course for the 2004 model with 17,000 miles.

Completely original except for the Pirelli P Zero Nero All Season tires.

Local course is Mid America Motorplex in Pacific Junction, Iowa. 2.23 miles long and flat.

What a blast this car is. It definitely has different dynamics than a rear wheel drive auto. I had a fair amount of understeer going into the turn, but when you laid on the power it straightened out very nicely. I ran 86 miles and 1.5 tanks of fuel.

I also caught a 2003 Ford Cobra Mustang (390 HP) and passed him with out too much problem. Had a blast chasing him down after about 3 laps...and he is above average driver (Bondurant grad) although it is completely stock otherwise.

I would like an oil temperature guage to show the heat during the runs. My other car can top 300 after extended running.

Brembos had no problems. Even the brake dust came off very easily.

I'm very impressed with this automobile...so were the 4 passengers I gave rides too. We all were wearing large grins...

:)

You mean you took the car to a track day.

So, what is the other car?

You mean you took the car to a track day.

Yeah I was gonna say, wow someone is RACING an STi!!! Got me all excited!

-mike

Even without an oil temp gauge, you still answered a question I had. 86 miles.... What was the most laps you ran at one time?

Yeah I was gonna say, wow someone is RACING an STi!!! Got me all excited!


i *belive* there is one guy out west running one in T1, but that's it AFAIK.

i *belive* there is one guy out west running one in T1, but that's it AFAIK.

That number is about to change...
:devil:

Just you wait and see.

Corey :banana:

That number is about to change...
:devil:

Just you wait and see.

Corey :banana:
I hope so :D all you need is enough money to build (and contunially rebuild) a gernade motor, and then i think the car could do alright. maybe not runoffs well, but not embarassing at any rate.

Ah...it sure seemed like I was racing! I was driving the wheels off it :)

I suppose the title is not accurate in reality...apologize for that.

My normal car is 96 Corvette (about 6 seconds faster on the same course).

I believe they left us out for about 15-25 minutes, so about 10-20 laps a shot. I surprised that even the cooling fan wasn't triggered when I came into the pits. I allowed the engine to idle for a few minutes (I know some say you need to, but...) and it took a 2-3 minutes before the cooling fan came on...

Also to note...not a single drop of Mobil 1 (5W30)was used (or that I could decipher on the dipstick)! My Pzeros showed wear (mainly the fronts), but I pulled them to clean and rotated to the back.

I also tried the DCCD. I'm leaning toward gimmick, but I probably don't have enough miles to say in all honesty. I tried Auto and full rear. Only thing I may have noticed it it didn't hunt around as much on full rear. Seemed a bit more solid..as if the computer (in auto) was attempting to slot power based on confusing inputs (like understeering off throttle to part throttle to WOT in a corner). I don't know. I do know the rear tires showed significant traces of wear-confirming my impression that all four were semi equal at work, unlike a full front wheel drive auto.

We both love the car...Thanks Subaru!

Ah...it sure seemed like I was racing! I was driving the wheels off it :)
I also tried the DCCD. I'm leaning toward gimmick, but I probably don't have enough miles to say in all honesty. I tried Auto and full rear. Only thing I may have noticed it it didn't hunt around as much on full rear. Seemed a bit more solid..as if the computer (in auto) was attempting to slot power based on confusing inputs (like understeering off throttle to part throttle to WOT in a corner).

The understeer on part lift is due to the SureTrac. I am told the 2005 doesn't do this.

BTW there is no such thing as "full rear", that would be "fully open", which does not equate to all power going to the rear. The torque distribution is 35/65, but nothing will limit it, so you could wind up spinning the front or back tires.

There is a sidebar in the next Drive Performance that will hopefully explain more.

Glenn

That number is about to change...
:devil:

Just you wait and see.

Corey :banana:

Anyone know what class a '96 Impreza L would run in in NASA or SCCA road racing?

-mike

Not legal for SCCA, at least not Improved Touring, yet. I guess you could run it in ITE, if the region you run will let you.

Not legal for SCCA, at least not Improved Touring, yet. I guess you could run it in ITE, if the region you run will let you.

Thanks, yeah my local NASA region is pretty cool, just was looking for listing of cars in various classes so I could try to determine where it would fit in competatively when I got talk to my local regions cause they will probably let me run, but will want to know where I'd fit so they can just stick me in there.

Thanks again for the help.

-mike

SCCA used to have a list of eligible cars for IT, but I can't find it. It was on their site somewhere, but they re-did the sight

#1 Folks quite hijacking my thread! :)

#2 I now remember why I don't post on this board-people nitpick the info to death. Glenn you are nearly no help to people...ugh. :(

The car was understeering off throttle because it is front heavy just like a front wheel drive...once power is applied AWD helps to make it less so. Probably just need a better driver rather a new fangled part...

nitpick? considering the suretrack is a clutch-type LSD, and the '05 has an helical LSD, Glenn's feedback has some merit. helicals do not provide any LSD effect when power is not being applied, and clutch-types do.

since your STi was truly bone stock though other than the tires, my vote for the understeer is the factory suspension tuning. it is setup for a nice safe understeer. less understeer than other subarus, but not as neutral as a stock evo.

anyway, my point is that people are offering comments and feedback and no one is flaming you. get thicker skin, relax, and keep posting because we're interested to hear what you have to say. if you don't enjoy this place then that's all you...

The caster on the car is inadequate, resulting in too much dynamic camber. Setting the front static camber to -3* and rear to -2* and on the stock tires the change is such that a passenger thought I had switched to R compounds. Running static camber to the point where dynamic camber is never goes positive does wonders for the handling. Get a picture of your car in a heavy turn and you will see that the front outside tire is rolled over onto its outer edge - mine now stands straight up and down in a heavy turn.

Not legal for SCCA, at least not Improved Touring, yet. I guess you could run it in ITE, if the region you run will let you.

You'd get eaten alive in an STi in ITE, at least in Mid Atlantic,...as most of those cars will be Porsche GT3R and some RS's, 944 turbo's, 911s from the early 70s, that weight 1800 lbs with 400hp motors, and big wings,...Speedvision BMW 3 series with alot of suspension development,..

Yes you could run it there and develope it there, as thats out plan before Speed or Grand Am,..but to try and be competitive in ITE with a STi, you'll need 2500 lbs weight, 400 at the wheels, and real brakes, as in front and rear brake biased pedals, with 14inch front and 13inch rear and 6 piston/4 piston set up, a fuel cell, a well built cage, possibly relocate drivers seat and steering wheel back 3 inches, and large Jun Yellow Lemon style wing front and rear,....thats just the tip of it.

We have it figured at 90k , that car would be competitive, anything less, and you're just having fun, but that's what its suppose to be about anyway, so hey, you might be on to something....!!

944 turbo guy

Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
www.racecompengineering.com

2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell

Brembos had no problems. Even the brake dust came off very easily.



I cant believe you didnt fade the brakes,.does that track not have any slow speed corners?...I got my brakes to fade on a back road, so if you were going fast , the stock brakes should have faded something mean,......to the point where the first thing you would have said is ,.." what kinda pad shoudl I upgrade to?....

Keep in mind the Brembo's are fine, but the stock pads suck big time for the track.

944 turbo guy

Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
www.racecompengineering.com

2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell

Completely original except for the Pirelli P Zero Nero All Season tires.



What happened to the original tires, as they would have been MUCH better for the track.........so when you complain about understeer, its kinda like taking off the bullet proof vest and being the first into a drug raid !! Yes the csr would have pushed with the stock tires, but if you'not getting the brakes to fade, maybe the stock tires would have been fine.

Next time to the track, if you have them, use the stock STi tires, and get an alignment with -1.3 both sides in the front ( camber ), this will help the push a little and use more of the brakes, and once you get them to fade, then you're going fast. :)

944 turbo guy

Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
www.racecompengineering.com

2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell

"the first thing you would have said is ,.." what kinda pad shoudl I upgrade to?...."

I can't believe that he completed the day on the stock fluid. :eek:

I just did a track day at road atlanta and had a blast. I put a post in the SE forum.

So far I am really pleased with the stock tires and I can get the car to rotate nicely especailly on lift or during off-throttle turn in. Ultimately the car does understeer but thats probably a good thing as I am a novice.

Mods that matter:

Front: 24mm bar, 1.5 deg camber, 0 toe, 40 psi cold, SR bushings
Rear: 22mm bar, 1.7 deg camber, 0 toe, 50 psi cold (this pressure kind of makes up for the extra camber. I will probably bump it down to 45 or lower once the rear camber is set to 1.2).

I have used Bobcat pads and have been happy but want to move up to some track pads; maybe the XP+ or the ferrodo 3000s. I got 7k street miles and 5 hours of track time out of the pads and the fronts are GONE. SS lines, motul 600 (should have been the first mod for track use), short shifter, TBE. I also have a harness which has REALLY helped me feel the steering feedback (since I am no longer hanging on the wheel).

Can't wait to fix the alighnment.
Really can't wait for some nice coilovers.

Good luck and stay safe.

Javid, the Pagid Blue racepads will put those DS3000 series to shame, esp down in turn 1 and 9. The initial bite is better and they really take car of the rotors very well. I know I dropped from 1150 (degrees) with the Ferodo's to 1000 with the Pagid blue race pads. We are working on a CF brake duct for the back of the sTi rotor and hub for brake ducting. Maybe have it ready by October. Let us know if you need more info.

944 turbo guy

Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
www.racecompengineering.com

2720 Sisson st .
Baltimore, Md 21211
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell

That number is about to change...
:devil:

Just you wait and see.

Corey :banana:
at the StL Regional/National this past weekend, there was a silver STi in T1 (though it had a WRX spoiler on it :confused: didn't think that was legal in Touring). wasn't there when he was running though, and didn't get a chance to talk to the owner. results aren't posted yet. still neat to see.

944, I haven't heard much about the Pagids other than they wear down pretty quick, do you concure? I may check them out. As for the brake duct yeah I may be interested. Does it integrate in with the stock vents that blow on the wheels?

The blue are a lower coefficient street pad, not sure how they would put a race pad like the 3000 to shame. Their initial bite is great when they are warmed up and they are consistent in application throughout their temperature range.

at the StL Regional/National this past weekend, there was a silver STi in T1 (though it had a WRX spoiler on it :confused: didn't think that was legal in Touring). wasn't there when he was running though, and didn't get a chance to talk to the owner. results aren't posted yet. still neat to see.

That was the one I was talking about... Yea, it has the wrong spoiler on it, but it shouldn't for long... The car was picked up used and I guess the previous owner swapped spoilers on it. I'm sure it will be legal before long.

Corey #89 STS

the RS 4-2 is a race pad, the 4-2-1 is a street pad. I am talking about the race pad, and its (imo) better than the Ferodo.

944 turbo guy

I would disagree as I consider anything with a coefficient below .5 a "streetable" pad. The RS 4-2 blue is .42-.43 coefficient. The DS3000 is a .62 coefficient 50% more friction. I do not even see how they could be compared. A comparison to DS2500 would be easier to make and I still have not seen Pagid's 4-2 material as more consistent lap after lap, heat after heat as the DS2500 even.

I would not be surprised that the DS3000's were hotter, they have more friction. They maintain their friction character and consistency up to 1300*F. The STi's biggest brake problem is in the rotors - I don't know metallurgy but they are too "soft" or something. I mean when someone wears out their performance pads at Pocono and grooves a stock rotor, puts the stock pads back on and smoothes the rotor out after 200 miles on the street, something is wrong. Racing Brake's rotors are already showing much better bite characteristic with DS2500s on the street and auto-x. This weekend they will be used on Pocono Long with DS2500s and by the end of August 3000's will also be tested on them.

The problem was not the 3000's it was the rotor IMO. You would probably find the same issue using Pagid's grays as they also create more friction and hence heat than the blues. The stock rotor material is not handling the heat.

Ed.

While your numbers are good and real, the feel and real world stopping capabilities of the Pagid Blue are better when mated to the stock sTi rotor. BUT you will see this at the end of August when you test them. I see students burn up their rotors with the porterfields and DS3000 all day long, I have also driven on both and have alot of track time under my belt in general , using eveything from a PBR metal master on a stock 87 GTi to a GT3 R 2001 car. PFC 01, Hawk blues, blacks, browns, Pagid oranges and blacks on 6 piston GT3 calipers etc,..and most recently Billet Brembo's on a Speed touring car. It is only my opinion, and I could be wrong,..but the Blues stay cooler and stop better on stock rotors. On AP and PFC rotors with hats, they feel equally impressive, not taking anything away from the 3000's, as we sell those also, just my customers who had ds2500 and some with 3000s, after the blues, like the PAgid and dont burn up the rotors as fast. The Brembo slotted rotors help alot too, 80 degree lower using rotor paint with slotted and Blues.

I am really curious about what you find in August let me know, as once you add some ducting to the 3000s, with the stock rotors, things get much better, and temp drop into the 1050 range, and things get civilized quickly.
one issue is I have alot of customers call me and say "I keep burning up my rotors, etc....and as discussed in another thread, no-one seems to ever run any ducting to these cars, and therefor run these 1300+ rotor temps, and the calipers dont like that temp for too long. Not the stock STi calipers, as the fluid heats up, and the rotors glow, etc. Fade is only a matter of a couple of corners away....

944 turbo guy

I think to a great extent we are saying the same thing. The stock STi rotors do not respond well to aggressive pad compounds. They get too hot and they offer a poor friction surface when they heat up. After 13k on stock and 2500 pads, I decided not to even bother with the 3000s on the stock rotors - they are in bad enough shape as it is. If I am lucky and get a good machinist I might be able to turn them and keep them in spec for spares.

I am going to give the racingbrake.com rotors the full workover with the 2500s first for comparison to the stock rotors. I expect them to perform well and permit me to easily move over to the higher friction compound of the 3000s.

I have followed your work and reviews on the STi components and do not doubt the value of your insights. I think the racingbrake.com rotors would be worth a look to you and you will likely find as I expect to that they will handle more aggressive pad compounds better than stock. Tell them Ed sent you their way. I am less than a 1/4 mile from them and since installing them they have stopped by my garage to check on them frequently. They have accompanied us to many track days even hiking the 10 hours down to VIR in February before even having any Subaru rotors. I know you go to Summit frequently they should be there during at least of the few the several events going on there this fall.

I couldn't agree more on the ducting in any case - besides being beneficial in any general case, the stock rotors appear to necessitate ducting. This week would be a great time to have installed them as I have the strake lip and wheel well covers off the car, but I don't think time will allow. They will likely have to wait until winter.

i see your point very much so, yes I agree. We just picked up racing brake and I do have plans on trying their rotors. Its good to know someone else will take a good subjective view and test to these new rotors. We are trying to do some "things" at Road Atlanta soon, and may try to include alot of different rotors in a test with some different pads, so I'll pm you when that happens. Thanks for the input Ed, I'll be in touch.

Myles

You mean you took the car to a track day.No, He took it on the Track on Track Day and raced other cars in an unmanaged non-sanctioned event.

Road Raced.

Sorry about the technicalities but...

#1 Folks quite hijacking my thread! :)


This thread is going to Cuba! Do you have any video of the event? Are you planning to do it again?

I think by him saying "full rear" he is referring to "as far as the adjuster would go"...He is obviously a car guy and knows that it does not have full rear drive capabilities (from the factory).


The understeer on part lift is due to the SureTrac. I am told the 2005 doesn't do this.

BTW there is no such thing as "full rear", that would be "fully open", which does not equate to all power going to the rear. The torque distribution is 35/65, but nothing will limit it, so you could wind up spinning the front or back tires.

There is a sidebar in the next Drive Performance that will hopefully explain more.

Glenn

I think by him saying "full rear" he is referring to "as far as the adjuster would go"...He is obviously a car guy and knows that it does not have full rear drive capabilities (from the factory).
On a side note... did any of the JDM specials (like the 22b) ever allow for 100% rear power distribution? I am thinking the drive train would have to be REALLY beffy to handle this, as we have seen a few drift cars weilding the center diff will blow up the rear axles (too much power to the rear).

Just curious as that would be it would have to be a REALLY heavy duty rear end to take all that power for a sustained amount of time.

Just wondering. Thanks!


He took the car to the track on a track day...

Man, I wish I could find 'days' like this. I do not KNOW of ViR having days like that, but of course, I am not as knowledable about when they do have these days.

Is this something that is done with a club, or the track generally 'sponsors' these days? Thanks for any info!

- dow
- dow

You're a member and you're not aware of this?

http://www.thscc.com/timetrial/events/vir_patriot.htm

:confused:

No no. That is time trails.

To me, that is not the same as having 10 cars out on course that are all just driving around like an open track day.

What thscc events that we have are 'time trails', which is a timed competition. I would much rather be at a BMWSCCA 'meet' or something of the same form/function that is basically 'show up, pass tech, and drive in group A'. I don't know if I dont see those around here due to SCCA scantioning rules, or whatnot.

I don't want to enter a competition to drive. I wouldn't mind doing a HPDE or some sort of 'registration' event to get a 'license', but I DO NOT want to have to go to a 'timed event' to drive on a track.

Am I out of my gord here, or is that the only things we do? Please be kind to a n00b, Mr. Fred. :)

- dow

NASA, BMW, Porsche and local driver's clubs run varying levels and degrees of performance driving education. Mastering these are good preparation for competition schools for licenses. However, they are not racing they are controlled and focused on driver improvement with limited passing signaled by the one being passed and in restricted areas except for advanced which is generally full track passing (still being pointed to pass by the one being passed). Most do not permit any type of timing of laps since insurance generally requires that there be no hint of competition. Getting caught timing laps or clearly racing a buddy or something is a pretty easy way to get banned.

Time trials are competitive events with different set up. They are generally one car on course at a time and pretty much like solo 1.

You get a lot more seat time and more driver improvement at education sessions than time trial sessions normally.

NASA, BMW, Porsche and local driver's clubs run varying levels and degrees of performance driving education. Mastering these are good preparation for competition schools for licenses. However, they are not racing they are controlled and focused on driver improvement with limited passing signaled by the one being passed and in restricted areas except for advanced which is generally full track passing (still being pointed to pass by the one being passed). Most do not permit any type of timing of laps since insurance generally requires that there be no hint of competition. Getting caught timing laps or clearly racing a buddy or something is a pretty easy way to get banned.

Time trials are competitive events with different set up. They are generally one car on course at a time and pretty much like solo 1.

You get a lot more seat time and more driver improvement at education sessions than time trial sessions normally.
Thanks. I am not familiar with NASA, and I do not know enough about BMWSCCA clubs to know what goes on at a particular event, or what I need to do to be 'safe' and 'qualify' for on track 'track days'.

If anyone can point me at such web sites, I would appreciate it. Other than that, I am just prepping the car for autoX in the mean time.

- dow

Well, the brakes were babied admittedly. I would begin braking before the distance boards even started! :) In other words, at the 5 board I had already started braking at the 5.5 or even 6 spot. Why...well don't care replace pads anytime soon. Yes lousy reason, but I got 75,000 miles on the original pads on our previous 'good' car with 4 trips to the road course (96 GTI VR6-loved that car too).

My friend with the Cobra had absolutely no pad left on this fronts...OEM pads too.

What do people get for oil temperatures on these cars?

To the question of availability of track days around...one might have to dig a bit, but I know locally it is quite easy.

Checking the track's website is the best way here. I was partaking in a Mustang Club who rented the track for the weekend. Their rules were more lax than the other clubs I'm part of. Meaning passengers were allowed. Cost was $140 all day plus $20 for the annual membership (required for insurance coverage so $160 total). Saturday were indeed timed (transponders were used) and Sunday was simply driving. Point by's are required and passing is only limited to the three straights (preferably after being pointed by) to near eliminate contact. Matter of fact that was my ~10th club event and the only contact I've seen is a Neon go into the wall and a Mustang that had a wheel come off and damage the body!

The track here actually has a Club. I pay $300 a year for membership and can visit the track from 1500 to dark for $40 gate fee. I normally get 100 miles before I head home...I get tired before I run out of day light-no kidding! It is the cheapest track time I've heard of...and I take advantage of it. My skills have gone from lackluster to average in the 850 miles I've logged there and to think the more often I visit the cheaper it gets! :)

www.midamericamotorplex.com

Also someone asked about speeds on the track...I used 2, 3, 4, and 5th gear. Only one corner where 2nd is used...the one before the 2200 foot front straight...now that is a demonstration of HP!

Lastly, the tires are necessary evil with 6 inches of snow to travel in. "I" got stuck in our driveway with the RE070's...I figured it was too unsafe for the spouse...heh I think I will get some 40,000 miles out of the Pirellis!

NASA High Performance Driving Experience (HPDE) (http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html) The Northeast and Virginia regions are very active and well run.

BMWCCA (http://www.bmwcca.org/index_flash.shtml) Also well run in the NJ and DE regions.

Those are the national ones I participate in regularly, we also have local driver's clubs.

We run at courses like the various in field late outs at Pocono Raceway, Summit Point's two (soon to be three) road courses, Virginia International Raceway, Lime Rock Park, Watkins Glenn and some even venture out to Mid-Ohio.

Almost all of them will have a check list for car preparation. The biggest things will be to make sure you have enough pad and tread left. Fresh brake fluid is very desirable and some require that it has been flushed recently even.

Actually babying the brakes if you are getting to full speed on track will reduce the pad life as you end up dragging them for a longer period. Rolling onto the brakes for short quick decelleration and rolling off them quicker will extend pad life more than dragging the brakes through 7 brake pylons. Also you are going to drive people crazy braking early at the end of straight after they can't pass and throw off their rhythm and cycle into the turn.

I've heard the technique before of "dragging" the brakes is worse than hitting them hard and quick...and frankly I don't believe it...at least in my case. My Corvette will only tolerate hard brakinga short time before rotors crack and pads disappear...slowly slowing is the way to get any miles out of them...again...this is my experience...other applications probably follow your comments dead on.

As far as being a hazard on the track...cars don't follow nearly that close to worry about someone running up my tailpipe in these 'track days'.

You speak competition...I'm speaking folks just having fun. :)

just having fun? heh, well who started this crazy thread titled "road raced..." anyway? :D

;)

Actually babying the brakes if you are getting to full speed on track will reduce the pad life as you end up dragging them for a longer period. Rolling onto the brakes for short quick decelleration and rolling off them quicker will extend pad life more than dragging the brakes through 7 brake pylons. Also you are going to drive people crazy braking early at the end of straight after they can't pass and throw off their rhythm and cycle into the turn.
And by dragging brakes you also getting them hot faster which not only decrease life of the pads but also decreasing life of the brake rotors and then you looking into "brake fade" in the middle of a session

Some of you guys read too many magazines...

My experience proves otherwise...ah nevermind...this thread went downhill...

:(

I don't read any magazines - journalists are a joke. I drive road courses and tracks and carrying full speed if you drag your brakes you will have problems.

bump