coolingmist.com (http://www.coolingmist.com/index.html)

Don't have any experience with it, but it looks almost exactly like the one sold by WRXTuner (NavyBlueSuby on this board).

Lots of people use that kit, or make their own from similar parts. Check out RiftsWRX for info.

Don't have any experience with it, but it looks almost exactly like the one sold by WRXTuner (NavyBlueSuby on this board).

Lots of people use that kit, or make their own from similar parts. Check out RiftsWRX for info.

G'Day,
I DID NOT look at the site...... :eek:
I am assuming that when you say, "Water Injection" you mean adding H2o to the Intake Air??? If so I CANNOT recommend it!! That is 'Old Tecnology' introduced Way before Intercoolers or water sprayers on same.
Bit like..."Want more Cubes?? Stroke It!!"--NOT ANYMORE, essentially you are displacing valuable combustion space that could be used by a colder charge air filling that space instead! NOBODY HERE OR IN JAPAN DOES THIS ANYMORE...sorry to yell :D

Sixpack

sounds closed-minded, 6-pack. there are some folks using it for some good gains on this board.

jm2c
ken

6-pak is right. WI is old tech. In fact, so is IC (internal combustion), so we should all stop using it right away :lol:

NOBODY HERE OR IN JAPAN DOES THIS ANYMORE

Except the Subaru factory WRC team that is !!!!

Larry

Except the Subaru factory WRC team that is !!!!

Larry
I have gone over the WRC car with a fine tooth comb and let ME ASSURE YOU IT HAS NO WATER INJECTION, neither do Class N,B,R or A.
You are, (as a collegue on this forum has stated), a BRAIN FART!!
Tell me why you need it?? I'm Waiting.......

sounds closed-minded, 6-pack. there are some folks using it for some good gains on this board.

jm2c
ken
Thanks for not being rude......teach some people! :lol:
WHY, if all you need to do is displace air/fuel to increase compression and lower combustion temps, (marginally as the increased comp makes up for it),
then why don't we all see it factory??? If it was the case, we would be buying fuel that was 75% Hydrocarbons and the other 25% would be made up of 19%Water and 6%Methylated Spirits, (to make the water soluable)??
Like I said, OLD SKOOL!!! Timed misfire, front mount cooler with minimal piping, 100RON Fuels, all backed by MILLIONS of dollars....yeah, lets pump some H2o where the Air and Fule is SUPPOSED to go.........right....NOT!

You guys are great!! :D

I haven't laughed so hard for a long time..... :lol:


Sixpack

sixpack, it seems you do not have a firm grasp on the concept behing water injection...

sixpack, it seems you do not have a firm grasp on the concept behing water injection...
OK, elighten me your exellency.......concepts have never been my strong point :D :lol:

Here are a few news clips I pulled from the 2002 wrc season, subaru did and still does use water injection. Your fine tooth comb is not fine enough.

News from the stages
Makinen spun in SS1 - engine software problem and water injection system problems
Colin McRae (Ford) missed a junction and went off the road in SS1 - dropped 1 minute
Valentino Rossi (Peugeot) - off the road. Retired in SS2
Justin Dale (Mitsubishi) rolled in SS2.
Justin Dale (Mitsubishi) lost time in SS3 with a water leak. Retired at service -roll cage damaged
Richard Burns (Peugeot) dropped nearly two minutes in SS3 - lost the turbo pipe and completed the stage without it.
Mark Higgins damaged steering, went off on right hand bend, sustained damage to drivers' door. Continuing.
SS4 - Stage cancelled due to spectators - Clerk of the Course Fred Gallagher said, "SS4 has been cancelled on the recommendation of the FIA Safety Delegate due to the pressure of spectators."


Subaru (3rd - 12 points)
Technical: Subaru introduces the latest version of its Impreza World Rally Car in Corsica. Described by the team's technical chief David Lapworth as 'an evolution, not a revolution', the WRC2002 features four main changes in the engine bay. The exhaust manifold's position has been altered slightly to boost power, while there are also modifications to the turbo housing, flywheel (now lightened) and the water injection system. Subaru has also altered the 'splitter lip' at the front of the car - the new design gives a slight improvement in aerodynamics but is mainly designed to be more resilient when cars cut corners.

back on topic ;) :

i have corresponded with the guy via email, and it seems like a great kit (though i haven't purchased the kit... yet). he is very knowledgeable and quick to help and answer questions.

by the way... he is offering a special on clubwrx, so if you are interested in the kit, you might save a few bucks:
http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=76639

P.S. i have no association with the vendor, and i offer this information since i was looking at the same kit. maybe some people with more experience with WI can chime in on this thread...

Here are a few news clips I pulled from the 2002 wrc season, subaru did and still does use water injection. Your fine tooth comb is not fine enough.

News from the stages
Makinen spun in SS1 - engine software problem and water injection system problems
Colin McRae (Ford) missed a junction and went off the road in SS1 - dropped 1 minute
Valentino Rossi (Peugeot) - off the road. Retired in SS2
Justin Dale (Mitsubishi) rolled in SS2.
Justin Dale (Mitsubishi) lost time in SS3 with a water leak. Retired at service -roll cage damaged
Richard Burns (Peugeot) dropped nearly two minutes in SS3 - lost the turbo pipe and completed the stage without it.
Mark Higgins damaged steering, went off on right hand bend, sustained damage to drivers' door. Continuing.
SS4 - Stage cancelled due to spectators - Clerk of the Course Fred Gallagher said, "SS4 has been cancelled on the recommendation of the FIA Safety Delegate due to the pressure of spectators."


Subaru (3rd - 12 points)
Technical: Subaru introduces the latest version of its Impreza World Rally Car in Corsica. Described by the team's technical chief David Lapworth as 'an evolution, not a revolution', the WRC2002 features four main changes in the engine bay. The exhaust manifold's position has been altered slightly to boost power, while there are also modifications to the turbo housing, flywheel (now lightened) and the water injection system. Subaru has also altered the 'splitter lip' at the front of the car - the new design gives a slight improvement in aerodynamics but is mainly designed to be more resilient when cars cut corners.
Water Injection on what??????you $%$*%(*&%($
And yeah............2002?

Please don't post miss information.
here's an article on the 2004 wrc car, read this article fully. http://64.119.173.9/forums/showthread.php?t=69783

before plopping down serious cash on anyone's system,
i would check out projectwrx's mod section.
jorge did an awesome write up on his homebrew injection kit.
if you are at all proficient in tinkering with bits and pieces, you can put together your own system for alot less....
not to poop on any vendors parade, but if you have the ability, and the know how, it's a viable option.

Please don't post miss information.
here's an article on the 2004 wrc car, read this article fully. http://64.119.173.9/forums/showthread.php?t=69783
misinformation is not my game, I could not access the link posted..... :mad:
I will check things out with the people who build these Vehicles and get back to you.... :confused:


Sixpack

I use the WRXtuner system (I got it used, the new price is kinda high IMO). For me, I can now run 91 octane with more power and less knock than I was getting with 94 before. With good tuning, I can see being able to up the boost a couple of PSI and leaning out to 12.5 instead of 10.8. But for now, it is helping me run more power without having to worry about gas quality as much.

before plopping down serious cash on anyone's system,
i would check out projectwrx's mod section.
jorge did an awesome write up on his homebrew injection kit.
if you are at all proficient in tinkering with bits and pieces, you can put together your own system for alot less....
not to poop on any vendors parade, but if you have the ability, and the know how, it's a viable option.

i definitely agree, and that's one reason why i haven't purchased the kit myself. i am still researching since i know i want the most bang for my buck :)

That is one of the best wrc subaru articles around, it's really a great read.

Try this: I-Club.com > Forums > General. Look for "AWESOME tech article on the WRC engine(56K go make some popcorn.)", it's a few post from the bottom.

http://neurosybir.net/nkoan/images/wrc_engine/wrc1.jpg

http://neurosybir.net/nkoan/images/wrc_engine/wrc2.jpg

http://neurosybir.net/nkoan/images/wrc_engine/wrc3.jpg

http://neurosybir.net/nkoan/images/wrc_engine/wrc4.jpg

http://neurosybir.net/nkoan/images/wrc_engine/wrc5.jpg

http://neurosybir.net/nkoan/images/wrc_engine/wrc6.jpg

G'Day,
I DID NOT look at the site...... :eek:
I am assuming that when you say, "Water Injection" you mean adding H2o to the Intake Air??? If so I CANNOT recommend it!! That is 'Old Tecnology' introduced Way before Intercoolers or water sprayers on same.
Bit like..."Want more Cubes?? Stroke It!!"--NOT ANYMORE, essentially you are displacing valuable combustion space that could be used by a colder charge air filling that space instead! NOBODY HERE OR IN JAPAN DOES THIS ANYMORE...sorry to yell :D

Sixpack
Any fuel you inject below 12:1 is just there for cooling the intake charge. It takes 1/6th the volume of water to do the same job. So the "water takes up room" argument does not work. If tuned right the water will take up less space in the cylinder than the amount of fuel used to do the same job.
You need to do some more research before you post misinformation.

TMS

Water Injection on what??????you $%$*%(*&%($
And yeah............2002?

[MODERATOR MODE ON]
mr sixpack

PLEASE try to refrain from flaming , bashing on and/or attempting to get a rise out of other members.

it's obvious you have some technical knowledge - but there's no need to ridicule and belittle others with less knowledge...

to be honest,
i've received more complaints about you, and your posts in the last week than i've received regarding any other member in the past YEAR.

this isnt a bitchfest forum, it's not a bashfest forum

we're here to learn from one another in a mildly friendly environment :)
we like it that way, and we want it to remain that way

so, please... try to refrain from the harshness

sorry but this is the only warning you're going to get :(
Jamie[/MODERATOR MODE OFF]



I NOW RETURN YOU BACK TO YOUR DISCUSSION... ;)

own3d!

FYI gang... mr sixpack is out of here.

banned, ip blocked..

g'day mate!

what a tool :furious:

maybe sixpack subaru's kid or joey got ahold of his computer and is spewing this rubbish. If he is interested in learning, there are a bunch here who get reliable performance increases from a well implemented water injection system.

With that being said, I like the smaller/faster/high pressure Aquamist pump. The volume that it can handle is limited compared to the Sureflow or other R/V type pumps, but is easier for me to mount. I also like the different jet sizez that allow you to change the volume but keep about the same dropplet size distribution.

I can run TXS stg4 map on 87 octane with not knock. When using 93 and tuning, I get more HP and tq increase than even tuning for a FMIC at my trim. Plus, I would still be able to use the stock WRX blue injectors w/ the vf30 and water. Water injection kits are still cheaper than upgrading injectors for mildly modded turbo.

"People are too often certain of their decisions and beliefs because they fail to genuinely consider alternative views and let their own explanatory schemes seduce them."

Idiot.

Also it could be noted that in the WRC article the reason the WI system was considered a "marginal" improvement was probably because the rules do not allow a 50/50 water methanol mix as it would effectively be the same as dumping high octane fuel in an octane restricted engine.

With a 50/50 mix of methanol and water as much as an 80% increase in detonation threshold can be found. Meaning that, assuming all your other bases are covered, torque could theoretically be raised by 80%!

Certainly nothing to take lightly.

Adrian~

Didn't Saab use WI in a production car?

TMS

FYI gang... mr sixpack is out of here.

banned, ip blocked..

g'day mate!

what a tool :furious:


:banana: Way to go Girl!

I use the WRXtuner system (I got it used, the new price is kinda high IMO). For me, I can now run 91 octane with more power and less knock than I was getting with 94 before. With good tuning, I can see being able to up the boost a couple of PSI and leaning out to 12.5 instead of 10.8. But for now, it is helping me run more power without having to worry about gas quality as much.


This is what I am talking about. I want to quell any possibility of detonation. i am looking at wi as more of a safety thing, than a way to huge power(although a few more ponies never hurts).

I would rather buy everything as a kit than try and piece something together. I don't know, maybe I'll try it.

This is just too funny -- I got a "you are an idiot" PM from this guy before Subie Gal pulled the plug. Thanks Jamie!

Any way back to the topic --
If your interested in WI and want to go top end, look at the Aquamist system, and the SMC setups, both have useful features. Snow Performance and the kit you mentioned are both simple basic systems, and you can roll your own for a couple hundred dollars with a Shurflo 100 psi pump and some commercial spray nozzles.

If you want to get some good discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of WI and how it can/has been used and direct input from lots of folks that have been playing with it for years, check out the open forum Aquamist runs for all manufactures and users of WI at http://www.waterinjection.info/phpBB2/ and the paper on WI at www.waterinjection.info.

As mentioned above WI has been used on production vehicles, the reason it is not used on a routine basis is your average driver is an idiot and will not keep the oil full let alone the WI reservior. There is absolutely no doubt about the efficacy of WI when properly implimented.

It's obvious that our friend from "down under" has never seen a mid 10 second Buick GN pull the front wheels on launch and hold them there through first gear.


Larry

If one was to consider WI. Where is the best place to find out how it works. By this I mean, does one hit a button to shoot the mist or is it automatic. How long would an average size "water bottle" need to be refilled on a daily driven car. How is the mist regulated. etc.etc. Thanks in advance. I know these are "newbie questions"

He started out sounding like he knew his business in other threads, but when he called Larry names, it was easy to see him as just another blowhard.

That and it's automatic demerits to state something emphatically based on zero references.

To answer the question above, it is based off of boost. A signal is sent to a solenoid that opens up the pump which sprays a fine mist either pre-turbo or pre throttle body. (at least that's my understanding.)

Thanks gpatmac, I think I'll look into WI a bit further.

The two reference web pages I posted above should answer all your questions.

There are several different ways WI is implemented. As Pat mentioned above, one of the most common is using a boost reference. A simple pressure switch turns on the spray at a fixed boost setting.

I have a low tech pressure triggered system, and mine is set to turn on at 8 psi.

You generally want the WI to turn on just before you are likely to get detonation under worst case conditions.

Water consumption is a function of how much water you are running,(how big your nozzles are) how early you turn it on, and how addicted to boost you are. I can get about 600 miles out of a liter of 50/50 water methanol mix if I am not flogging the car hard. If I am drag racing or running with high boost settings I will cut that by about 30%.

The top end systems like the Aquamist, can reference water based on the fuel injector duty cycle, and some can actually map water to boost just like you do with fuel injectors. The range in possible complexity is very wide, as is the system cost.

You can build a budget home built system for about $200 or a kit for in the $300-$400 range to a top end system that could cost you up to $1000 depending on how many bells and whistles you want to add.

My system allows me to run 87 octane fuel if I keep the boost dialed down ( I'm currently "between jobs" so fuel cost is important), or 91 octane ( normal pump premium here at high altitude) with fairly agressive boost settings on the street.

Larry

There are several different ways WI is implemented. As Pat mentioned above, one of the most common is using a boost reference. A simple pressure switch turns on the spray at a fixed boost setting.

Larry, thanks for the awesome reply. "By George I think I've got it"

There is a long thread going on in the Alaska regional forum. Seems the highest octane they can get now is 90 so they have organized a large group buy of the SMC alcohol injection kit. Not technically "water" injection, some people use part water blends and the owner of SMC comments on this in the group buy thread. As Buick Grand National folks and a few WRX'ers have used the SMC kit with huge success, I'm leaning more towards the SMC kit than Aquamist...

i just looked at that smc kit. It sure does look sweet! 500 bux is kinda high for me. I am definately getting some sort of water injection, but I'd like to keep it no higher than 359.99 if possible.

Do not inject water or anything else liquid for that matter, pre turbo. That is if you want it to last. Take a look at a compressor wheel after it has been used with WI pre turbo and it will be pitted as if you had shot peened it or gave it a session with a sandblaster.

Do not inject water or anything else liquid for that matter, pre turbo. That is if you want it to last. Take a look at a compressor wheel after it has been used with WI pre turbo and it will be pitted as if you had shot peened it or gave it a session with a sandblaster.

somewhere post turbo is really the best.... right before the throttle body appearing to be one of the more common places chosen by rexers... i think i read on the aquamist forums that i guy was experimenting and found the WI itself pulled more heat from the system by itself, than when an intercooler was added to the system prior to the WI.... in another words, the intercooler pulled some heat, then there was not as much heat left for the WI to pull out, therefore the WI itself was less effective than when combined with an intercooler (of course the intercooler+WI was better than WI alone), just that the WI was doing less itself when the I/C was in the picute. he was going to experiment with pre-intercooler WI after that to see if the WI went back to pulling its original amt of heat, but results on that never got posted.

nonetheless.. prior to the turbo only has you trying to pull heat out of air thats at basic ambient temp (not yet very hot), and clearly puts your compressor blades at risk if your system is not VERY effecitve at atomizing the water itself into a fine mist... so the better safe than sorry answer is post-turbo injection if you ask me...

Properly atomized (ie line pressure >40 psi) pre-turbo injection works quite well to maximize performance of a turbocharger that is a bit too small.

Injection point should be well back from the compressor inlet on the WRX.

Pre-compressor injection maximizes the performance of the turbocharger with some increase in effective fuel octane. On my system I could run Premium 91 octane, and even 87 Octane mid grade in cool weather with full ignition advance multiplier of 16, on my 13G turbo.

Works fine for me and no significant compressor damage if the dropplets are kept small and have time to evaporate. Pre-compressor injecton will lower the air temp at the inlet by as much as 20-30 deg F, under most conditions.

If you have a large cool discharge temp upgraded turbo, the normal pre-throttle body injection point would be most effective.

Larry

thanks for the clarification...

so do you think an 18g at 25psi sees more benefit from injection at the throttle body, or include the pre-turbo injection also?

I think where you inject the fluid should have more to do with your intercooler setup. With a "too small" or non-existant intercooler, a chief job of the injected fluid is to cool the charge, so pre-intercooler may work well. With a more appropriate intercooler, you can focus on in-cylinder cooling, and inject at the TB.

think i'm good with the Perrin FMIC... so i'll go for max in-cylinder benefit to avoid detonation... inject at TB