Maybe I'm onto something. Maybe I'm stupid. But i was looking over a chart of specs of all the subaru engines built, 91 and up. I was looking at the different sizes of things and their compression. I also remember somebody comparing these cars to lego blocks. So i was thinking maybe I(or someone else) could build a high compression motor with stock parts or aftermarket parts made to fit the stock vehicles. I personally think that it would be cool to build a powerful NA motor over a period of time, and someday swap it into my Prezza. Or like I said, maybe I'm just stupid. But hey, at least I dod something constructive during study hall.

the list of parts and reasons are as follows:

My stock engine is the NA EJ22, just for reference. If I would ever do this, it would be a second engine, but i want to keep to the 2.2 block.

Because of the above, the first part is:
MY91-94 EJ22T block. its built sturdier than the NA, or so im told.

The following is a choice of the 2, but i dunno which would be better:
MY98 EJ25 DOHC cylinder head (cuz its dohc)
OR :confused:
MY00-04 EJ25 SOHC cylinder head (boasts higher compression)

I also dont know about the following. I dont know if they will fit(prob not), of it they'll help me with power or anything but...:
MY98-04 connecting rods and crankshaft. If they dont work, id go with the EJ22 or EJ22T rods and shaft.

MY97-98 EJ22 pistons (higher compression, and they'll fit)

finally...
MY97-98 SOHC EJ22 head gasket. (higher compression than the dohc gasket)

I'd like to stick to better than OEM parts on stuff, including the other stuff, such as clevite bearings and arp bolts/studs

my questions are:

Will it all fit?

What kind of compression would be expected?

What about engine magement?

Sohc head or dohc head?

Would it start?

Any other suggestions?

One more thing... am I freakin nuts? :rolleyes:

-shaun

I think the best thing you could do is get all the stats of all the parts you are considering using and take it to an engine builder. Have a little chat with them and see what they think.

I think the best thing you could do is get all the stats of all the parts you are considering using and take it to an engine builder. Have a little chat with them and see what they think.

ah no man. that takes all the fun outta it. :lol:

not being an ass here but if i was gonna spend that much money, id just turbo the thing. theres a twin turbo kit out there. and this HC thing is junkyard parts. :D

and i live in central Pa, aka Penntucky. the closest thing to an engine builder we have is the neighborhood mechanic, or some guy at AAP who'll gather the parts together. The biggest thing in tuning around here is slapping a big ol aluminum wing, stick on hood scoops, chrome exhaust tips, and APC spinner wheel covers. I'm interested in performance and teaching these tuner wannabes a lesson in real cars. But since I'm one of the few and proud, i dont have access to this stuff. just junkyards. ugh... i hate this region...

Maybe you misunderstood, If you get the copies of the service manuals you can have a nice reference for all the parts you are considering using. I did'nt suggest that you go get all the parts and mickey mouse around with them.

Have at it and good luck. Like to see what you come up with.

Any other suggestions?
-shaun

Paeco Industries!

Any other suggestions?

Get the toughest block and pistons on the list, combine that with the best flowing heads, and then let the machine shop deck the block to give you the compression ratio you desire. Either that or go the custom piston route.

get as close to 13:1 compression as possible..

Whilst your on the point of mixing and matchingI"ve often wondered about this combination.
EJ25 block for maximum bore capacity
EJ20 crank , shorter stroke better rpm capacity
custom long rods - improve rod ratio by having the taller ej25 block and the short stroke ej20 crank. The long rod combination improves rpm capacity.
Overall capacity will still be close to 2.5L (about 2.4L I think).
I really dont think the strength of the block is an issue after all turbo motors are putting out much higher hp's than n/a would ever be capable of and whens the last time you heard of a block failing?

Get the toughest block and pistons on the list, combine that with the best flowing heads, and then let the machine shop deck the block to give you the compression ratio you desire. Either that or go the custom piston route.

Decking the block too much will cause problems with the crank and cam sensors. It would be better to have pistons made.

Whilst your on the point of mixing and matchingI"ve often wondered about this combination.
EJ25 block for maximum bore capacity
EJ20 crank , shorter stroke better rpm capacity
custom long rods - improve rod ratio by having the taller ej25 block and the short stroke ej20 crank. The long rod combination improves rpm capacity.
Overall capacity will still be close to 2.5L (about 2.4L I think).
I really dont think the strength of the block is an issue after all turbo motors are putting out much higher hp's than n/a would ever be capable of and whens the last time you heard of a block failing?

I don't think they fail so much as flex and cause head gasket failure. I like your ideas though, A rod ratio of 1.8 or more would be nice. Not sure on the crank though, I think the n/a 2.2 are'nt forged.

do what i amp planning:

phase II ej25 shortblock with the older dual port ej22 heads and the thick ej25 gasket. should get you right around 11.5:1. any higher and you would need to possibly add a piggyback to retard the ignition timing or add water injection or find a way to increase the fuel or all of the above.

You could use your 2.2 ecu. It would run, but it wouldn't be ideal. ECUs can run cars pretty different from the cars they were designed for. I believe Supermoose is running his 5mt ej25 off a 4eat 1.8 ECU.

You could use your 2.2 ecu. It would run, but it wouldn't be ideal.

In what way wouldn't it be ideal?

In what way wouldn't it be ideal?

Obviously, some type of engine management would be ideal. E-manage or maybe the hydra if cost was no object, right?

In what way wouldn't it be ideal?
might have too much advance and is a little too slow to react to knock perhaps and may not provide the ideal amount of fuel. is what im guessing. im going to try anyway though.

might have too much advance and is a little too slow to react to knock perhaps and may not provide the ideal amount of fuel. is what im guessing. im going to try anyway though.

This is what I wanted to know. Actually, from my experience from switching from a 1999 Legacy 2.5ltr ECU (AD61A) and my stock ECU (AC831), my stock ECU ran richer throughout the rpm range and I believe it ran with less timing advance (I lost my pocketlogger logs on this). Perhaps WAC can help out with the timing info since I sent him a 2.5ltr ECU a while back for testing/keeping (My memory escapes me). I do know my stock ECU is much more conservative and it dumps more fuel.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thomasck/DynoRuns/OBS/ECU/FullRun-3rdGear.jpg

that font color is killing my eyes.

but yeah, the dohc heads really aren't that great, they've had a lot of problems iirc.

why not just use the strongest block and some cobb heads that are made for high hp engines? you're going to be using some crazy pistons and internals anyway, right?

This is what I wanted to know. Actually, from my experience from switching from a 1999 Legacy 2.5ltr ECU (AD61A) and my stock ECU (AC831), my stock ECU ran richer throughout the rpm range and I believe it ran with less timing advance (I lost my pocketlogger logs on this). Perhaps WAC can help out with the timing info since I sent him a 2.5ltr ECU a while back for testing/keeping (My memory escapes me). I do know my stock ECU is much more conservative and it dumps more fuel.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/thomasck/DynoRuns/OBS/ECU/FullRun-3rdGear.jpg

Interesting... Kevin, you really are the dyno whore. ;) :p


that font color is killing my eyes.

but yeah, the dohc heads really aren't that great, they've had a lot of problems iirc.


I think you're talking about the headgaket problems that were so common on 97-98 ej25s. The new 4-layer hgs seem to have fixed that problem now, and I love the way my DOHC ej25 revs... :D

Ok,
A couple of corrections to the opening post that I don't see adressed in what is some very good discussion.
1. Putting either DOHC or SOHC EJ25 heads onto an EJ22 or EJ22T will lower, not raise the CR.
2. '98-04 rods and crankshaft are a downgrade in quality. All phase I EJ22's NA and Turbo have a forged crank and rods.
3. There are very very few parts out there that are "better" than OEM. stick to Subaru parts for most everything except maybe some custom high CR pistons

As for the other discussion about the 1.8l ECU. I know that Xphyr has a project car that is running an '04 EJ25 block w/ '98 DOHC EJ25 heads that he has fitted with HKS STI v3 cams, and he uses the 1.8l ECU to run the thing. It recently put 140hp to the wheels at 5000 on the dyno with Borla headers and no CAI...

2. '98-04 rods and crankshaft are a downgrade in quality. All phase I EJ22's NA and Turbo have a forged crank and rods.



are you sure about this? had never heard that before. that would be really cool.

I don't know what I would suggest an EJ25 block.

All n/a ej25 blocks are open deck. remember the EA63? subaru was almost sued over the fact that they all blew head gaskets big time. The FIRST engine after the EA63 (EA65, EA71, EA81, EA82) to be open deck was the EJ series... and the only reasons that the EJ18 and EJ22s DON'T blow headgaskets as much as the EJ25 is because the EJ25 is not only a bigger stroke, but is a bigger bore. so much so, that, it's really cutting the line on the space between the cylinders. The EJ25 crank has a 4mm longer throw (distance between TDC and BDC) which means 4mm more volume space (raises a 2.2 to 2.3L displacement) and increases the compression by 2mm (half of the stroke is going back 2mm more increasing displacement, and 2mm more forwards increasing compression.)

I say, an EJ22T block and rods, EJ20T heads, a phase I EJ25E crank, and EJ22E pistons. And then O-ring the heads. O ringing means no gasket, so there is no loss in compression from the space of the gasket between the block and heads.

The EJ22E/T block has the same main bearing and rod bearing locations as the Phase I EJ25. Until you get to the EJ22B engine, which has different internals. but that's off topic. All E designated engines (1, 5, 7, E, G, B, ect.) as far as what I know, have forged internals. forged internals are better because they are much stronger... but they are heavier... so...

anyhow, this combination of stuff (EJ25 crank, EJ22 bore, EJ20 heads) would be upwards of 14:1 CR. This is a rough estimate. You'd need a stand alone management... you'd need... this and that and this and that... blah blah. You'd want massive cams, a turbo water pump, the turbo oil pump, an intercooler, probably polished water jackets... lots of things. Plus you'd need like 115+ octane. The highest n/a I've ever read up on was 290hp, but it was a 2.0L and had dual throttle bodies, and massive work done to it.

I''ve seen and heard of 5.7L engines making 670+hp and 4.5L engines making 600+ and even a 4.4L making 900hp. (how about a 32v northstar in the back of a fiero!) But that's serious money.... the more n/a power you make an engine achieve, the less likely it is to be reliable.

All in all, it's easier to turbo, and get away with, and get power gains from it, than to make a high hp n/a motor. you have to be determined.

That's crazzzy!!!

I'm Brian Fellows.

Thanks for all the great info Jonofscio.

The following is a choice of the 2, but i dunno which would be better:
MY98 EJ25 DOHC cylinder head (cuz its dohc)
OR :confused:
MY00-04 EJ25 SOHC cylinder head (boasts higher compression)


The bump to a 10:1 CR in the 2000+ EJ25 comes from the piston design, not the heads. In fact, the 1999 2.5RS has the same SOHC heads as the 2000+ models, but still has the same 9.7:1 CR as the 98 DOHC model.

Shane

Brain fellows rocks. That's just CRAAAZZZY!

I'm surprised nobody flamed me for having the opinion that I'm not a fan of the EJ25.

So I'm probably going to get a myriad of crap for suggesting this.. I was considering, if I can't get my hands on an ej25, taking the heads off of the ej18 i have in my garage, giving them a good PnP (yay Dremel!!), and putting them on the ej22 block I currently have in my car. Other than the added flow of the PnP, would I see any gains from the (I'm assuming) higher compression? Also, is there a post anywhere about lift and duration of all stock EJ Subaru cams? Interchangeability as well?

Here's ALL I KNOW:

1. I've seen comparisons of the EJ18 n/a to EJ20 turbo heads.
Bigger intake ports, bigger exhaust ports. Bigger valves. MADE for flow.
2. I've read that in shops they often MARK and keep the EJ18s in seperate areas from EJ22s (heads) because they look exactly the same to the eye.
3. calculations suggest that the EJ18 headswap onto a 2.2 block means 11.5:1.


so... theoretically... if the only thing changing between the 2.2 and 1.8 heads is the dish volume (changing combustion ratio) then porting and polishing some 1.8 heads, some valve job stuff, better valves, and basically getting better flow, would increase power (of course) on the 1.8L. But so much more on the 2.2 because you're also getting better flow than the 2.2 heads (if #2 is actually 100% true... both head sets would flow the same right?) and then also increasing combustion ratio.

I say go for it... I want to try this combo, but I think I'm the only one. either that or the 10.5:1, Ej22 -> 2359ccL stroker.

BTW, when I tried to take the heads off of my ej22 last time I had it out, it wasn't having any of it. The bolts were really in there. Is there a way to get them out without snapping them? Or, should I just keep turning them b/c they probably won't break?

Could you not also do the stroker setup with ej18/ej22 head and block? Also, how do you figure out compression increase yields when doing stuff like this. I don't want to do something retarded and get knock out the yin yang.

I would like to see more info to back up the EJ22 vs EJ18 head flow claims. I had been led to beleive that the heads were identical and that the only difference between the EJ22E and EJ22T heads was the NA head longer duration cam profile. But this is what I can tell you empirically:

According to Cobb's bench flow numbers the EJ22T heads from 193 cfm@0.350" lift on the intake side and 147 cfm@0.350" on the exhaust side
http://www.cobbtuning.com/tech/sohc/page2.html
According to MRT's numbers the EJ205 heads flow 151 cfm@0.400" lift on the intake side and 111 cfm@.0400" lift on the exhaust side.
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/ click the hot link on the bottom of the page for head flow characteristics.
Of course the EJ25 heads win with 240cfm and 182cfm respectively. But I get tired of people constantly say that you MUST upgrade the EJ22 heads when doind a build because the flow like s*%&! That just isn't true. They flow all right, especially for the turbo guys... ;)

will higher compression engines lose torque if they flow TOO much in the heads? I know that can be a problem with too large a diameter exhaust.

so, I'm not arguing with anyone btw...

I agree, I keep hearing that EJ18 and EJ22 heads are identical in flow.

I've seen pics of the EJ20 heads, and... they DO have bigger ports than the EJ18 heads. This I know.

How are they measuring the cfm flow? is it by hooknig up some sort of measureing device to the head while it's assembled to the block? of course if it were in this fashio... a 8:0:1 CR engine will have less flow than a 9.5:1 engine. that makes sense... but maybe they're testing it on a bench doing something or other. I don't know how this is done. I can't justify the numbers you've given matt, but from the pictures i've seen, it looks like the EJ20 heads should flow waaaay more than the ej18 heads. which makes me wonder if ej18 heads ARE the same as Ej22 heads (minus the compression ratio)

***FUN WITH MATH***

Ej18, Ej20, and EJ22 engines use 75mm stroke. The only thing differing is the bore.
Ej25 uses 79mm stroke. Both phase I and phase II. I don't know if the 22b is a phase II 2.2, but it sounds like it. but it still uses a 75mm stroke crank, just... it's phase II (different thrust bearing location) AFAIK!

displacement in cc = Pi((bore/2)^2) * stroke
play around with what you know to get what you don't know. you need two of the three to get the unknown. simple math.

cr = amount of volume of space above the piston at TDC
cc of volume from top of pistons and head area = displacement in cc / known combustion ratio

take that number and divide it by four gets it how much volume is in each dish.

don't forget that gasket thickness adds to volume of area above the piston (lowers compression ratio)

so... from this, if you add a taller piston, less volume above the piston, increases compression.
smaller dish in the heads also means less volume above the piston, so more compression.

it's all pretty easy. oh, and then when you change stroke... you're actually moving the piston more. so, 75mm stroke vs 79mm stroke means that not only are you taking 2mm away from the volume of area used to figure out compression ratio, but you're also using that 2mm plus the other 2mm you're moving towards the insides of the block for displacement purposes. so figure 2mm as your length for when you figure out how many ccs you're taking away from the volume above the piston that you would use for figuring compression ratio.

I could keep going.... but I need to work on this damn computer. stupid viruses.

Jonofscio,
One question. What generation and model of EJ20 heads have you seen pics of? EJ20G's and EJ20K's have bigger ports than the current EJ205 heads. And of course EJ207's have bigger ports as well. I would really like to get some port measurements on the EJ205's as I have some EJ22T heads on my floor that I can measure for comparision purposes. I think I need to go find this one head thread from the spring with a bunch of pics and measurements from various EJ20 heads. Goin' searchin'

And if you read both Cobb's and MRT's sites, they say they were benchflowed...

I dug up one additional spec. An EJ207 Spec C v8 head flows 260 cfm@ 0.400" on intake and 195cfm on exhaust, just for comparision purposes...

I'm not sure which heads I saw compared. but the thread is somewhere here on nabisco, I'm sure I'll find it. Good to know that there are vast differences among heads.

Ok,
Did a little personal R&D this weekend since I have both NA and Turbo EJ22 heads in my possession. I found that the intake valves on the NA heads were 1/32" larger than the ones on the turbo heads. There were other differences in water jacking and a few other things as well. My NA heads are 1990's and the turbo ones 1992's. So, unless Subaru change the spec with the release of the turbo in 1991 and started using the same cores for NA and turbo, the heads are not the same...

Bump!

First off, if anyone was wondering, it doesn't take 4 hours to change a crank seal.

Second, if I want to put cams in my ej18, what would be the way to go? Not even sure what to search for. Any ideas?

Edit: I've seen a few people mention Delta Cams. If you read further up this thread, you'll see that the cams will be in ej18 heads, but on an ej22 block. Would the regrind Delta does work with the higher compression heads? I plan on doing a PnP, if that helps bring any more answers to the table.

Anybody?

I've used Delta cams. Give them a call they are very helpfull. You may want to remind them that the 1.8 has roller cams. Also, make sure you have given some thought to lash adjustment. The HLA's will not make up the amount that will be taken off the cams. One possibility, the newer single port 2.2's have mechanical adjusters on the rockers, will they fit on the older heads? I don't know. One more thing, if you pull the HLA's apart you will have to replace the O rings, plan on spending about $65.00 for new ones. If you pull the HLA's out, or store the rockers anyway but the way they are on the engine (that is on their side) for an extended period of time the oil will leak out and they will need to be bled. Higher compression is always better up to the point you get detonation ( if your not worried about emissions). You may also want to search on the web about cam shaft timing/overlap and it's effects on torque/compression. Hope this helps a little.

www.deltacam.com

I already posted that in "the other" thread. (2k for engine mods thread)

I'd still love to play with doing some fun n/a stuff on my 2.2... it'll run me about $700 to get the cams, gaskets, and all the stuff to rebuild my 2.2 to have 11.5:1 compression, (already polished the intake and exhaust ports)bigger valves put in, cam regrind, crank pulley, and paint. don't forget paint. lol. *aims for 200hp or more in that*

do what i amp planning:

phase II ej25 shortblock with the older dual port ej22 heads and the thick ej25 gasket. should get you right around 11.5:1. any higher and you would need to possibly add a piggyback to retard the ignition timing or add water injection or find a way to increase the fuel or all of the above.

I know back in the day, there were a couple of people on this board running this set up. Anyone still out there with this? I have some specific questions about doing this...

*subscribe*

Well,
I got most of my questions answered yesterday in person. We start work on this engine today. I will post back once it is in the car...

What is the impact of a custom crank with a slightly bigger stroke
This way you can get both additional displacement and additional Compression

Would this be cheaper / more reliable than changing pistons ?

I know crawford makes custom cranks

Would changing the cranks take less time than changing the pistons

Bump - anxious for some more details out of Matt Monson :)

THE BEAST LIVES...We turned the hybrid over for the first time around 9pm last night. I will post a complete thread about it once we get it fine tuned a little bit and take it out on the road. It still doesn't have headers on it, and the clutch isn't hooked up. But it idles nice.

And to answer the question about pistons vs cranK? You can replace the pistons without cracking the block in half. The crank requires a full tear down. But personally, I still favour using a stock EJ25 with EJ22 heads w/Delta cams. We will take a dyno run once the car is all sorted out, but I am really hoping for 145-150whp out of this...

Looking forward to it.

I ran an EJ25 with EJ22 heads on my gocart years ago, with a 4bbl carb and distributor :D It made some good hp and the CR was high, you could pull the spark plug wires off and run it on ether like a diesel! Cool part about the EJ22 heads is they have that spot in the back to run a distributor, that was my initial reason for running them. I found out later it also bumps up the CR. Unfortunately the engine only lasted about a year before it pounded a rod bearing to death(Very high RPMs and G's). These engines are strong and will handle what ever kind of NA power you can throw at them.

And to answer the question about pistons vs cranK? You can replace the pistons without cracking the block in half. The crank requires a full tear down.
----

How much extra time to do the cranks and pistons as opposed to pistons alone
How much do stroker cranks cost and who sells them

---

Have you ever pressed rod and crank bearings? If you have not done this level of build before, I highly recommend against it. And you are going to pay a shop $400-500 in labor to do it for you. To tear down and reassemble to block as a first timer, I would guess it would take upwards of 30-40hours in it's entirety.

As for a stroker crank, use a 2.5l crank...

I use a specialist mechanic
I have been quoted $450 in labor to change pistons
( once the engine is out of the car )
Would changing crank take roughly same amount of money ?
In addition, changing crank gives me both higher CR and more displacement, and I could use my existing pistons

High CR pistons cost $550, how much does EJ25 crank cost ?


Further I read that the EJ25 crank in a Ej22 has a CR of 12.5
which is unsafe

bump

I have seen claims of
Cams = 15 whp
Port and Polish heads = 20 whp
Headers = 12 whp
and so on

What are the average whp and torque gains expected from
1. Raising CR from 9.7 to 11 ( assuming that heads, cams, catback are already done )
2. Stroking a 2.2L to 2.35 L

This is the last time I will say this: YOU CAN GET AN EJ25 SHORTBLOCK FOR $500 OR LESS!!! :furious: For what you are going to pay in labor on the piston swap or the crank swap you can get a 2.5l engine that will make over 11:1 compression with your stock heads on it. What more do you want? :huh:
Do your port and polish. Do your cams. Get the headers. But don't spend a read cent on that bottom end. You won't set any HP records and you will spend over $1000 on a shortblock that won't provide any more power than the EJ25 block. I repeat my mantra that I have said over and over around here: OEM IS BEST...*shaking his head and walking away from the thread* :alien: :rolleyes:

Ok Matt
you got my attention
What can I salvage from my current 2.2L SOHC. single port heads, MAF

1. Next level racing Air fuel adjustor - Yes / No
2. Hi Flow cat + cat back - Yes / No
3. Underdrive Pulleys - Yes / No
4. ECU - Yes / No
5. Pro ECM chip - - Yes / No
6. Delta Cam Grind #220 - Yes / No
7. Throttle body - Yes / No
8. Fuel Injectors and Fuel Pump - - Yes / No
9. MAF Cold Air intake - Yes / No
10. Current Port and Polished 2.2L single port heads - Yes / No

and what is a good source of 2.5L short blocks

I have a few (3) EJ25 shortblocks right now. I also have a couple sets of DOHC heads if you're interested.....


Jay Storm

I have a few (3) EJ25 shortblocks right now. I also have a couple sets of DOHC heads if you're interested.....


Jay Storm
Jay,
Can you shoot me a PM with a price and details on one of those EJ25 shortblocks, preferably a phase II one. Today's oil change revealed that my bottom end is farther gone than I had suspected and I am going to need a shortblock sooner than I can get the STi block built with high CR pistons. I can just hear my engine tick tick tick. It is a timebomb counting down to a catastrophic bearing failure... :mad: :disco:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=673199&highlight=Storm

I have one phase II block. I was planning on keeping it, but may deal.

Jay Storm

I spoke to ccrengines.com on swapping the EJ25 shortblock
and they said that there are 2 specific issues / problems

1. The water jackets on the EJ22 heads dont match to the EJ25 short block

2. The head gaskets on the Ej22 heads dont match to the Ej25 shortblock

I spoke to ccrengines.com on swapping the EJ25 shortblock
and they said that there are 2 specific issues / problems

1. The water jackets on the EJ22 heads dont match to the EJ25 short block

2. The head gaskets on the Ej22 heads dont match to the Ej25 shortblock

That's disappointing, but also somewhat surprising :confusing: I have access to an EJ22 and an EJ25, don't know when I'll have the time to inspect both, but I was almost positive they were the same :shrug!:

Well, both blocks are open deck, so the water jackets things is false. And you use the Ej25 head gasket for this swap. The holes in the gasket don't line up prefectly, but they line up good enough. Do you really think it is going to be a problem if lots of guys are running EJ25 heads on EJ22T closed deck blocks with the same alignment issues, and those guys are running 20-30psi and 400+ hp. We are only talking about a measily 200-210chp. It is a non-issue...

Would a switch to cometic headgaskets be advisable ?

Cometic uses the OEM design as far as water/oil passages. The difference is in the construction. Pricewise you could go either way.....I personally would use the Cometic set. And actually am right now.


Jay Storm

you can have the oem gaskets "cut" to match up better.

be sure you are using a phase II block if you go cometic. The phase I pistons clear the deck, and you MUST use the new thick HG for this conversion...

If I use phase 2 blocks I can use cometic ??
Are cometic thick Head Gaskets ?
Who sells cometic head gaskets ?

You can get Cometic gaskets in any thickness you desire. They have (part #s for) OEM thickness(post redesign), Slightly thicker than stock for FI engines as well as thinner for NA and compression raising. To get them, try www.cometic.com for starters. Mention sourcemotorsports and they *may* cut you a little discount....I can't promise that though....Or you can email me with exactly what you want and I'll get them for you, since they're local to me.

Jay Storm
www.sourcemotorsports.com

For Phase 2 EJ25 short block
what thickness should I get for my NA, High CR application
How thin or how thick can you safely go

Is there a formula between thickness and CR
Thickness = X. CR = Y

Subaru EJ25, 100mm bore diameter
C4264HP: .043" "HP" MLS gasket, DOHC 16V <- stock thickness.
H1631027S: .027" MLS DOHC 16V <- You want this set.
For Phase 2 EJ25 short block
what thickness should I get for my NA, High CR application
How thin or how thick can you safely go

Is there a formula between thickness and CR
Thickness = X. CR = Y
Jay Storm

Hmmm....Gonna have the engine out of the car next week. Jay, will you see what sort of price you can get me on a thin one for the RS?

Subaru EJ25, 100mm bore diameter
C4264HP: .043" "HP" MLS gasket, DOHC 16V <- stock thickness.
H1631027S: .027" MLS DOHC 16V <- You want this set.
-----

1. Phase 2 EJ25 are SOHC, so will these fit
2. What is the CR difference between a 0.043" gasket and a 0.027" gasket
3. Is a 'thin' 0.027' gasket safe for NA engines

So far the thin ones are working just fine for my NA build.
Subaru EJ25, 100mm bore diameter
C4264HP: .043" "HP" MLS gasket, DOHC 16V <- stock thickness.
H1631027S: .027" MLS DOHC 16V <- You want this set.
-----

1. Phase 2 EJ25 are SOHC, so will these fit
2. What is the CR difference between a 0.043" gasket and a 0.027" gasket
3. Is a 'thin' 0.027' gasket safe for NA engines
Matt, I can get them for just under $100/pair. I'll talk to my contacts and see if I can get any deal right quick. Gimme a few days since the holiday is here and I'm not sure what their work schedule is.

Jay Storm

Will the thin ones fit SOHC
your descriptions shows DOHC

Awesome. I already bought the OEM ones, but if you can get me some thin metal ones before Saturday the 8th when we rebuild the motor, that would be great.

You shouldn't have any problems using the gaskets with SOHC heads. I can inquire though....

Jay Storm

Bump

PM'd you Matt.....I got gaskets coming monday.

Jay Storm

Anyone successfully run EJ22 single port heads on Phase 2 EJ25
Short Blocks yet ?

PM'd you Matt.....I got gaskets coming monday.

Jay Storm
you got $$$ and a special request...

Anyone successfully run EJ22 single port heads on Phase 2 EJ25
Short Blocks yet ?
It has been done. This is not a new formula. I was steered towards the formula by more than one veteran tuner and master tech that first did this years ago. Single port or dual port doesn't really matter. JUST DO IT :devil:

So far my best source of Short blocks is from CCRengines at $1150 + shipping

Where do people who do swaps sell their RS engines ?

Mating between EJ25 short block and L-4EAT auto-transmission?

One of the salespeople at CCRengines said that swapping in the EJ25 short block to a EJ22 Automatic transmission could be a problem, since apparently
one of them has 4 screws and the other has 8 screw openings and they may not mate up

I think all off the Phase II engines 2.2 and 2.5 use the extra screws. But then, they are the experts ;)

Well, FWIW, last week I swapped a working EJ25 from a non-working EJ25 Legacy Outback. It had 4 bolts but it was a manual transmission. Either way, the 4 vs. 8 bolts shouldn't matter - I know of a few people running L or RS tranny's (4 bolts AFAIK) mated to WRX EJ20 blocks (8 bolts) without issue.

So far my best source of Short blocks is from CCRengines at $1150 + shipping

Where do people who do swaps sell their RS engines ?
Here in the private classifieds.

And if you do a search, you will find the 4 bolt vs 8 bolt thing was addressed years ago. 4 bolts is fine...

Matt , on your hybrids have you had to upgrade the EJ22 fuel pumps and fuel injectors ?
have you had to add knock sensors like MSD or J&S Ultra Safeguard ?

Fuel Pumps and Fuel Injectors may need to be upgrading when going from a 2.2L
to a EJ25 Hybrid, since there is risk of knock due to fuel starvation, when hp is grossly increased from stock

Would instead adding a J&S Ultrasafeguard knock sensor prevent knock and let us get by on stock fuel pumps and fuel injectors and perhaps even use lower Octane

I would never trust a 2.2 fuel pump in any performance arena. They tend to become unreliable garbage after years of use. Many people have problems with their fuel systems completly due to their old fuel pumps.

So what fuel pump do you recommend
I remember that you posted that the Walbro 255 caused gas mileage to drop a lot

Anyone tried adding wet NOS to a Hybrid High CR car yet ?

So what fuel pump do you recommend
I remember that you posted that the Walbro 255 caused gas mileage to drop a lot
But the fuel pressure regulator still comes after the fuel pump :confused:

do you just have to get higher compression ratio piston head to increase the compression ratio?? cause it seems too good to be true if thats it.... it seems to simple. Does anybody recommend to switch the fuel injectors? if you have a full intake/ exhaust system with a pulley kit?

do you just have to get higher compression ratio piston head to increase the compression ratio?? cause it seems too good to be true if thats it.... it seems to simple. Does anybody recommend to switch the fuel injectors? if you have a full intake/ exhaust system with a pulley kit?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Hey Matt Monson - clean out your PM's or send me your email address. I want to ask you some questions offline ;)

:confused: :confused: :confused:
thats how i felt when i asked it too

Hey Matt Monson - clean out your PM's or send me your email address. I want to ask you some questions offline ;)

Did that 24 hours ago...

I would never trust a 2.2 fuel pump in any performance arena. They tend to become unreliable garbage after years of use. Many people have problems with their fuel systems completly due to their old fuel pumps.

Vincent,
Many of the guys in this discussion have cars that are 5 to 10 years newer than yours. And your SC'd fuel needs are much higher than us NA guys. Don't scare them with your talk. This thread has already had some of the same questions asked 2 or 3 times. We don't need to dip into fuel pump paranoia. Dizzy's car is running a stock 1.8l fuel pump with 214k mi on it on his EJ25/22 hybrid. We have contemplated dropping in a WRX or Legacy Turbo pump, but have only heard the car detonate once since we put it together. It drives like a beast and gets terrible gas mileage. I repeat, run the numbers guys, do the math. The stock injectors will be fine for 200chp...

Matt , has anyone added wet Nitrous to these EJ22 / EJ25 hybrids ?

OK - so I tried PM'ing Matt Monson, but I imagine he's as busy as all get out, so I'll pose my questions here for anybody willing to take a shot at them:

I plan on starting to acquire parts for the EJ22 heads + EJ25 block on my g/f's 1997 impreza wagon. It has about 150,000 miles on the clock which is "barely broken in," but I want to have a replacement motor ready to drop in for the day it finally decides to let go.

My first few questions are related to parts so I know what I should start looking for. I'm a mechanic, and by no means and engine builder, but I don't mind doing the legwork and research, acquire the parts and then give them to somebody to build for me.

1. What block should you go with? EJ25 Phase I or II?

2. Any prep work required on the block at all?

3. What head gasket should one use? (Brand and thickness)

4. What heads should one use? (Phase ?, Model Year?)

5. What is the target or believed final CR (if anybody has computed it)

6. What gas should you run? (93 and up octane?)

7. What other supporting modifications should be done at the same time? (Cams? Fuel injectors? Fuel pump? Spark Plugs?)

8. What ECU can handle this frankenstein setup? (Stock EJ22 ECU?) Is anybody planning on using any aftermarket engine management?

9. Did you have to make any wiring modifications? (Are all the sensors the EJ22 requires plug and play to the sensors on the EJ25 block?) Are any sensors left over? Any unused sensors or holes?

10. Gas mileage has been reported to drop significantly - how much has it dropped?

I don't know enough about the EJ25/EJ22 block/head setup to really offer any concrete advice. I'm pretty sure the compression ratio would go thru the roof with the 2.2 heads. If anything you'd want the EJ22T heads.

Others will know more and be able to guide you better.


Jay Storm

I don't know enough about the EJ25/EJ22 block/head setup to really offer any concrete advice. I'm pretty sure the compression ratio would go thru the roof with the 2.2 heads. If anything you'd want the EJ22T heads.

Others will know more and be able to guide you better.


Jay Storm
D'oh! I'm sorry, I thought you had this setup in your car- I must be confusing you with somebody else. Thanks for chiming in though!

hey kyle...

this sounds pretty interesting. I'm running a phase 2 ej25 in my obs, with EL header scoming soon. I want to get a set of deltas in late febuary, and i'f i'm pulling things apart, upping the CR with heads too would be pretty cool. My questions lie along kyles (maybe we'll do them together?).

SUBSCRIBE

Matt, I did say "old" and "years of use".........But how about "10 years or older!"

Anyone ever tried a partial block fill on a ej25, I'm theorizing that it would take care of a lot of strength problems with the block. I've heard one of the biggest causes for problems with this block is the cylendar walls can actually move or shift causing the head to blow (let me know if I was informed wrong). So I thought that a partial fill should add a lot of strength and still allow for enough cooling for high compression,nitrous, or turbo build ups. Any thoughts?

Uh....since it fills up the coolant passages....it's probably not a good idea for a streetcar.
Anyone ever tried a partial block fill on a ej25, I'm theorizing that it would take care of a lot of strength problems with the block. I've heard one of the biggest causes for problems with this block is the cylendar walls can actually move or shift causing the head to blow (let me know if I was informed wrong). So I thought that a partial fill should add a lot of strength and still allow for enough cooling for high compression,nitrous, or turbo build ups. Any thoughts?
Jay Storm

That is why I was thinking a partial fill, Like a quarter the way up. I know tons of lt1 guys who have done a partial fill and a high volume water pump with a nice radiator and actually ran cooler.

There's not a whole lot of prep required to make one of these EJ22/EJ25 hybrids. The phase I vs phase II EJ22 heads thing has been argued for years around here. We used the phase I because that is what we had. They were the NA heads. The Turbo ones actually have a slightly smaller exhaust valve size and won't flow as well. But the phase I heads are dual port and let you bolt up Cobb, TWE or the other high end headers. For the single port phase II head, you could only use the Borla single port version.

We did nothing to the bottom end. Use a phase II if you can get it. Use the new four layer OEM EJ25 head gasket. With the phase I EJ22 heads, you are in the 11.5:1 CR range with this set up. We use 91 octane here because it is as high as we can get. All the sensors on the bottom end plug right in to the harness. You use your stock manifold and manifold wiring harness.

We did nothing with the ECU. One of the points of this swap is hp per $$$. It is a ghetto garage build. If you are gonna spend the money on EM, then spend the money on a built EJ25. We are using a torque chip. It helps down low. We bailed on the chipped ECU becuase it didn't like the torque chip. You could use an AFC if you wanted to play a little bit. But that's $200 more invested.

Gas mileage is in the low 20's. If you don't drive like you stole it, probably mid 20's would happen daily. I think that about covers it, for now...

Matt, anyone used wet nitrous on these 11:1 hybrids ?

There's not a whole lot of prep required to make one of these EJ22/EJ25 hybrids. The phase I vs phase II EJ22 heads thing has been argued for years around here. We used the phase I because that is what we had. They were the NA heads. The Turbo ones actually have a slightly smaller exhaust valve size and won't flow as well. But the phase I heads are dual port and let you bolt up Cobb, TWE or the other high end headers. For the single port phase II head, you could only use the Borla single port version.

We did nothing to the bottom end. Use a phase II if you can get it. Use the new four layer OEM EJ25 head gasket. With the phase I EJ22 heads, you are in the 11.5:1 CR range with this set up. We use 91 octane here because it is as high as we can get. All the sensors on the bottom end plug right in to the harness. You use your stock manifold and manifold wiring harness.

We did nothing with the ECU. One of the points of this swap is hp per $$$. It is a ghetto garage build. If you are gonna spend the money on EM, then spend the money on a built EJ25. We are using a torque chip. It helps down low. We bailed on the chipped ECU becuase it didn't like the torque chip. You could use an AFC if you wanted to play a little bit. But that's $200 more invested.

Gas mileage is in the low 20's. If you don't drive like you stole it, probably mid 20's would happen daily. I think that about covers it, for now...
Thank you kind sir! :)

Well, with the answers that Matt provided here and in other threads, and in combination what I've been piecing together, I, too, am looking to "build up" this ghetto frankenstein and try to keep it as low buck as possible. I figure I might try and get the delta cams at the same time since the engine will be out anyway, but otherwise, basically just apples to apples with a different block as far as it looks.

THANKS A TON! :disco:

Matt, anyone used wet nitrous on these 11:1 hybrids ?
Just do it! :banana: :furious: :alien: :huh: :eek: You engage in far to much mental masturbation. Speed is better than sex. Get fast now!!!

subscribe

I'll most likely be doing this too.
for my MY00 RS, as it broke a timing belt, and since I'll have the heads off...and have a set of EJ22 NA stage I heads laying around, I'll throw them on it, hopefully it'll be a nice up in HP.

Huck

I'll most likely be doing this too.
for my MY00 RS, as it broke a timing belt, and since I'll have the heads off...and have a set of EJ22 NA stage I heads laying around, I'll throw them on it, hopefully it'll be a nice up in HP.

Huck


Ah, this changes my opinion. Why would you use the EJ22 heads if your EJ25 heads are good? Use a thin .027 hg like I did and bump the CR on your EJ25. The EJ22 heads are a down grade. But if your EJ25 heads have bent valves, then it would be a good cheap option. Get the Delta cams while they are out. But remember, you are going to need an EJ22E manifold to make this bolt up.

If you need a manifold, pm me. I will sell you one for cheap. And if your heads are borked, I may be interested in picking them up for rebuilding if you will let them go cheap.

Lastly,
We are doing to R&D this weekend and plugging in the EJ22 ECU to the car. We want to see what differences we notice between the two. We will also have it on the dyno next month and will likely run it with both the 1.8 ECU and the 2.2...

I haven't torn into it yet, but assume the valves are bent.
I just bought the car (wrecked) and the rad is pushed into the t-belt.
If I'm really lucky (which I usually am not) maybe a new t-belt will be all it needs, but I'd put money on some bent valves, and I'm looking ahead for my options.

And as I have a whole 92 MY EJ22 with a bottom end knock sitting in my garage, I can rob it to fix the 2.5, or at least it sounds like I can from what I've read in this thread.

It's my 20th Subaru, but have been mostly earlier EJ22's EJ18's and EG33's, EJ27's which are all non-interferance motors, so this will be something new for me.

But I have hope now anyways,
Thanks,
Huck
The originator of the SVX 5-speed swap :)

Another quick question....
will I be able to run the 2.5 cams, and roller rockers in the EJ22 heads?

Huck

Another quick question....
will I be able to run the 2.5 cams, and roller rockers in the EJ22 heads?

Huck

Nope. Totally different head design. Plus stock EJ25 cams aren't any more agressive than EJ22 cams anyways...

EJ22E manifold - You're referring to intake manifold, correct? They are virtually the same all the way up through the 2.2L lifecycle from 94ish - 00+ are they not?

EJ22E manifold - You're referring to intake manifold, correct? They are virtually the same all the way up through the 2.2L lifecycle from 94ish - 00+ are they not?

read again. You cannot use an EJ22 manifold on Ej25 heads...

read again. You cannot use an EJ22 manifold on Ej25 heads...
But will have to to use a EJ22 intake manifold, when using the EJ22 heads on a EJ25....right?

But will have to to use a EJ22 intake manifold, when using the EJ22 heads on a EJ25....right?
Yes -

Matt, I think you might have a type-o which is causing confusion (or I'm just an idiot when it comes to the naming of the manifolds...)

You write:

Ah, this changes my opinion. Why would you use the EJ22 heads if your EJ25 heads are good? Use a thin .027 hg like I did and bump the CR on your EJ25. The EJ22 heads are a down grade. But if your EJ25 heads have bent valves, then it would be a good cheap option. Get the Delta cams while they are out. But remember, you are going to need an EJ22E manifold to make this bolt up.
That sentence is what screwed me up - do you mean EJ25E manifold? :confused: (all references that I am aware of regarding EJ22E is the 2.2L SOHC, am I wrong here?)
-----------------------------------

FINAL
EDIT: OK OK OK - I see what you were saying. You were saying to the guy if his valves are bent and his heads are toast and he DECIDED to go with the EJ22 heads (which you recommended against if his EJ25 heads are still good, which makes sense) then he would need the corresponding EJ22 manifold.

So class, in conclusion, the intake manifold needs to mate to your heads. EJ25 heads = EJ25 intake manifold

EJ22 heads = EJ22 intake manifold

REGARDLESS of what block you go with.
PHEW! Sorry for the momentary retardedness

-Cirrus "Master of the Obvious and Poor Reading Comprehension"

you got it.

-matt "master of the run-on thought"...

Bump--

We did nothing to the bottom end. Use a phase II if you can get it. Use the new four layer OEM EJ25 head gasket. With the phase I EJ22 heads, you are in the 11.5:1 CR range with this set up. We use 91 octane here because it is as high as we can get. All the sensors on the bottom end plug right in to the harness. You use your stock manifold and manifold wiring harness.



Hey Matt! What is the part# for the headgasket you are referring to that is in bold above? Installing this gasket on my single (Siamesed) exhaust port 2.2ltr Outback Sport will yield an 11.5:1 compression ratio eh? Man.....got my head spinning.

So I can simply purchase this headgasket, take it to the dealership and they could install it without issue as if it was the stock headgasket? :devil: Interesting!

Kevin,
The gaskets won't up your compression on your EJ22, it only ups the compression when you use EJ22 heads on the EJ25 block....its not the gaskets that bump it up...it's the heads, I think he's saying to use those gaskets as they hold up the best...

Huck

Kevin,
The gaskets won't up your compression on your EJ22, it only ups the compression when you use EJ22 heads on the EJ25 block....its not the gaskets that bump it up...it's the heads, I think he's saying to use those gaskets as they hold up the best...

Huck

Thank you Huck! I read kinda fast at work and sometimes do not get the whole 'gist' of the thread and/or posts. I'm relieved I won't be spending any money on this now. If it were just gaskets that would need changing, I'd pretty much be in trouble. :p

yeah Kevin,
Hukc hit the nail on the head. Now, Cometic might make a thinner than stock HG that would let you do something like what I have done on my 2.5RS. It might be worth pursuing for some cheap power.
And don't pay the dealership for that job. It is a weekend job that just requires a certain amount of attention to detail. But it is not hard...

remember you can also use EJ18 heads on a EJ22 to get the same effect as EJ22 heads on a EJ25, you can use your stock T-belts but the tensioners might wear out faster, since they have to compensate for shorter distance between crank and cam shafts. it isnt too much difference, just like a couple thousandths or some crap like that.

hey all,
I wanted to throw my $.02 into this thread. I just put one of these together, with great results so far.

Ingredients:
94 Leggy Wagon, 5spd, 2.2L with spun rod bearing at 115k miles. ($cheap)
99 (phase 1) 2.5L shortblock, unknown mileage ($super cheap)
98 (phase 1) head gaskets ($23/ea at 1stsubaruparts.com)

The conversion was extremely straight forward. absolutely everything form the 2.2 bolted onto the 2.5. The only trick was on the head gaskets. the coolant passages at the tops of the cylinders didn't line up with the 2.2 head. I used a drill and a dremel to make some new holes in the gaskets to line up. It was kind of a pain to get the edges of the new holes cleaned up on the multi-layered steel gaskets, but it is doable.

The results so far have been pretty rewarding. Using the head volumes on the EJ calcs (http://wac.addr.com/auto/obs/turbo/ejcalcs.html) page, I figure about 11:1 CR with this combo. I've got over 1000 miles on it now. I've run a couple of tankfuls of shell 93 octane and one tank of speedway 92 octane... have not yet heard a bit of detonation.

Performance wise, it's a nice step up from the 2.2. It's not OMG fast, but man is it torquey. Between 2000 and 4000 rpms, it tugs like a V8 compared to the old 2.2. With the 5 speed and 4.11 final drive, it makes for a fun car to drive around town. I put an RS pressure plate in at the same time. I believe it's a little stiffer than the stock 2.2 plate, but I don't think it's quite enough for this motor. It'll slip all the way through 1st with a moderately agressive launch.

It does seem to fall flat at higher revs. It will certainly still out run a stock 2.2 all the way to the redline, but it doesn't seem as fast up high as the 2.5 cars I've been in.

I really don't have any idea what the long-term durability of the setup will be, but if it keeps performing this nicely, without detonation, I'll say it's a highly recommendable setup for someone looking to replace a dead 2.2 or just make a fun car on a budget.

thanks to those that contributed here, it helped me a bunch!

Jim

How do the plugs look? Any sign of preignition or piston material on the insulators? Stock heat range?

It does seem to fall flat at higher revs.

Jim

I noticed that with mine. I'm running the same head/block combo as you are, but I have a set of Delta cams in there. It pulls hard from 3000-6000, but seems to loose a little steam after that. I'm going to try opening up the exhaust a bit and see if that helps. I'm already running headers & a cat back, so I got my hands on a high flow cat. Hopefully, that will from up some top-end power. Congrats on getting your swap running.

haven't looked at the plugs yet. stock range so far.

I was thinking about some headers and a high flow cat, but these old gen legacies have slightly different exhaust that doesn't appear to be interchangeable with any other subies, and I haven't seen any aftermarket stuff specifically for it. Custom exhaust wil cost more than my whole motor build. :(

thanks!

haven't looked at the plugs yet. stock range so far.

I was thinking about some headers and a high flow cat, but these old gen legacies have slightly different exhaust that doesn't appear to be interchangeable with any other subies, and I haven't seen any aftermarket stuff specifically for it. Custom exhaust wil cost more than my whole motor build. :(

thanks!

Because you are using phase I dual exhaust port heads, any of the RS headers will bolt up. A local guy who works for the dealership runs the Cobb headers on his '94 with a stock mid-pipe. If you wanted a little more flow, source the turbo midpipe from a USDM Leggy turbo and you are good to go...

Yeah they'll bolt up to the heads, but the header to cat pipe flange is in a different location on this thing from any of the imprezas and newer legs that I've seen. So to use a header for one of them, I'll need exhaust to bolt to it. I'm pretty sure the cat pipe to midpipe joint is also in a different place, so it's not as simple as just swapping in an impreza or newer leg cat pipe.

I've seen several of these 1st gen leggy wagons, and they're all the same. I wonder how that guy made it work...? Did he use the RS cat pipe and midpipe?

With gas prices likely to be skyrocketing this summer, and the Imp L wagon being our main mode of transportation (daily commute + weekend trips) I am now leaning more towards making a happy and content bone stock EJ22 when the existing EJ22 takes a poop. Ahhh the smell (and price) of 87 octane!

But yoru tales of success and good fortune are always welcome! :D

my roomy made a good point. the price of gas keeps going up, but the difference between the cheap stuff and premium is still consistantly $0.20. So the precentage extra you pay for premium is actually going down... so it's actually becoming less expesnsive (relatively that is) to drive a car that requires it, .... :D :devil:

For about $25 or so, any decent exhaust shop can cut and reweld the midpipe with the flange in the right location to meet the headers...

Just thought I'd update this as I just rolled past 10k miles on my frankenmotor. some folks were concerned about longetivity. so far no probs at all.

/knocking on wood :)


Jim

I wish I could say that Diz's is still on the road. But when your bottom end is the original '98 2.5RS block that started it's life in Xephyr's car when he first started to experiment with boost, what do you expect for a lifespan?

We are tearing it down this weekend. As best we can tell #3 cylinder let go the ring lands. Ran great while it lasted, but RIP. The car has moved on to better things, and we may rebuild the engine and sell it off if everything looks to be OK outside of the bad piston...

Just curious about that 11.2:1 compression figure for EJ25's. I've never known anyone really to fudge on compression statistics. Any thoughts on that little figure?

Which 11.2:1 figure? I am too lazy to go re-read the thread. Which combination are you talking about?

Probably this one: MY00 EJ25 MY00 EJ25 9.96 7.9 616 9.96 0.058 4.5 50² 6² 11.2:1 EJ25 SOHC 10.0:1 stock

nevermind...

^^^what solution said. Hey matt....what's your experience with milling cylinder heads on our blocks? .060 on a stock 00 block, with those thinner .027 head gaskets would give me near 13:1 compression using stock parts. Not to mention tight valve/piston clearances. Any thoughts mr. n/a dyno king ;) ?

Oh,
Is that your thread on oddpirates? You didn't indicate which heads. I have never really entertained the whole milling thing very seriously. But at one point, Joel Cox suggested decking the block to the same end.

As for this 11.2:1 CR thing, here's my best guess what is going on. I think the 11.2:1 is with the replacement headgasket. Try running the numbers with what EJcalcs is calling the phase I gasket on a phase II block. I bet it comes out at the listed CR.

To my understanding, the newer HG was not used in production until the '02 cars, which is also when they changed the pistons on the RS. Cars with blown HG's got the thinner one as a replacement, but if the GC's ever saw them in production, it was at the very tail end of '01. So, cars that have had HG failures on phase II engines are going to have that 11.2:1 CR. At least that's my best guess of an explanation. If I am wrong, I am sure I will be corrected...

^^^what solution said. Hey matt....what's your experience with milling cylinder heads on our blocks? .060 on a stock 00 block, with those thinner .027 head gaskets would give me near 13:1 compression using stock parts. Not to mention tight valve/piston clearances. Any thoughts mr. n/a dyno king ;) ?

Shave it to much and you'll have intake alignment issues..

Thanks, Matt. Yeah, that's me on oddpirates ;). I was against decking the block because the piston already comes to the top of the block. I didn't want the piston to hit the head. Taking material off the heads made more sense. It preserves the already narrow deck height. As for the intake alignment, you can slot the holes and things are okay....at least on the old EA blocks. Some friends used to do the EA's this way to raise compression, and slotted the manifold to make things line up right. Now, they make up the difference with boost.

After feeling the responsive nature of my n/a RS on E85, I'm addicted to that throttle response. The torque is everywhere. You don't wait on anything. After annihilating a WRX on the freeway using this stuff, I'm convinced it works. On guess we'd be even. On this stuff, he lost. I've still never cracked open my stock block.

Oh,
Is that your thread on oddpirates? You didn't indicate which heads. I have never really entertained the whole milling thing very seriously. But at one point, Joel Cox suggested decking the block to the same end.

As for this 11.2:1 CR thing, here's my best guess what is going on. I think the 11.2:1 is with the replacement headgasket. Try running the numbers with what EJcalcs is calling the phase I gasket on a phase II block. I bet it comes out at the listed CR.

To my understanding, the newer HG was not used in production until the '02 cars, which is also when they changed the pistons on the RS. Cars with blown HG's got the thinner one as a replacement, but if the GC's ever saw them in production, it was at the very tail end of '01. So, cars that have had HG failures on phase II engines are going to have that 11.2:1 CR. At least that's my best guess of an explanation. If I am wrong, I am sure I will be corrected...

There is also this note on the EJcalcs page:

"The offical word from Subaru on the MY00's compression ratio is 10.0:1. This is somewhat less than measured, so maybe the official number is an "effective compression ratio" as a result of intake valve overlap?"

^^^That's also something I alluded to in another thread. A compression ratio is something a factory would state without trying to hide anything. I'm wondering if that was a math error or what :confused:

after i started this thread, and the posting got a little more complicated, i stopped following up on posts.

well...

currently I have a running EJ22 motor in a dead chassis. um... yeah. i killed my Suby. poor me. anyways, im thinking about putting something together here. if not coething high compression, maybe the EJ22T block, forged rods and pucks, and possibly COBB cams. POSSIBLY. now this would be more for a turbo conversion, but it should also work NA, as i would keep up some decent compression.

a new idea? absolutely NOT. but hey... its a start.

An old idea that time and time again has been shot down. The Ej22T can handle 400+hp on stock internals. If you want to waste $1500 putting that crap in your block go ahead. But why bother. Just search the AFI and Conversions forum and you will see...

A turbocharged eg22t can make 400hp an na ej22 will have to spin upwards of 10000 to make that so I would say the internals won't make it in na form but they'll do fine if you want to make 300 hp or less. You could lighten the rods and shot peen them to extend their life.

Think I'm going to bite the bullet and go with the EJ22/EJ25 frankestein as follows:

Have: 1997 L wagon, EJ22 single port exhaust
Acquired: EJ22 shortblock, lower mileage, same year (for the heads), EJ25 Phase 2 block from 2.5RS, low mileage

Planning on having the heads and block cleaned up and inspected by somebody smarter than me, go with the 4 layer OEM head gasket for the EJ25. This car spends most of it's life under 4000RPM so I really don't have an interest in doing the cams. Everything else I'll just pull from the existing motor, replacing items like the water pump, oil pump, where I can in hopes this thing lives for a few tens of thousands of miles.

Nothing fancy, nothing earth shattering, but the current engine is burning some oil and coolant so I think it's only a matter of time before it'll need to be replaced.

Me loves to see another convert. Let me know if there are any bits and pieces you need. I have tons of spares. But with 2.5 engines, I think you will be fine. Just be sure to figure out the IAC and TPS before you take your car down. That's the one challenge of using older engines in the newer cars with this set up...

Me loves to see another convert. Let me know if there are any bits and pieces you need. I have tons of spares. But with 2.5 engines, I think you will be fine. Just be sure to figure out the IAC and TPS before you take your car down. That's the one challenge of using older engines in the newer cars with this set up...
My older bro had a 97 leg outback EJ25 motor go on him at 150,000 miles. Swapped in a 98 Forester shortblock and had a HELL of a time getting the thing to idle properly. Turns out, had a "bad" (or so badly gummed up I couldn't get it to work) IAC- replaced that and had to spend about 5-10 minutes tweaking it, but finally got it happy, so I know what ya mean! :lol:

I figure since it's the same intake manifold though, it shouldn't be TOO far off. I'll try and get some pics of the process though I'm pretty sure most people here already know what it looks like and what needs to be done, but I'll do my best to keep track of what parts I needed and total cost (trying to do this low-buck).

wish i could be there to help ya out kyle!

hope to see you in chi-town sometime....

Keep us posted on how this goes man. Take pictures if you can.

The point I was making is that you cannot use the late manifold on the early heads! You have to use the early manifold and the IAC is on the manifold, not the TB. And the number of wires for the sensor is different. But going backwards should be easier than forward because the newer one uses a 4 wire IAC. You should be able to just move the TB over to the old manifold. But check this information visually yourself since I haven't personally done it. I just know a guy who has had a hell of time with it because he didn't do his homework before he took his car down...

hey matt, i read through this whole thread but i guess my issue is kinda different and i need your opinion,i have a 96 impreza L so i guess it is a single port. i am leaking oil from my block or head it looks like and from my timing belt, i think the place i had my timing belt done didnt replace the seals and that was a year ago and it was a body shop who was fixing my car and i doubt theyll give me my money back and i dont want them messing up my car anymore. but anyway, i might be able to get my hands on an ej25 with ecu for $800 with less than 60k miles on it,
1)should i try a frankenstein motor? or would it be more beneficial to swap the entire ej25 engine? i will need my car down as least as possible since it is my only means of transportation
2)i have an auto 2.2. the 2.5 is manual,will the swap be difficult?is it a matter of the 4 bolt and 8 bolt thing and the 4 bolt being fine?
3)i have a 96 so the harness is different correct? will it be worth the trouble of swapping the ecu too or should i just keep saving for a wrx engine because thats what i ultimatley want to do in the next year or two. but my car smokes like crazy so i need to fix it soon or swap. so the ej22 block def needs to go or else its the headgasket thats leaking, or should i just put the block in and put my ej22 heads on it?
4)how much more power can i expect from the hybrid motor?>
5)can i do this and retain my auto or will i need to buy a 5mt? or how hard would it be to swap it all and do the wiring?
i dont have enough money right now to replace my tranny too so could i do anything and retain my tranny and do the least amount of work as possible?
6)how much wiring would be involved in the hybrid motor? not very much right? and how about a whole ej25 swap? any help would be great,thanks!

get as close to 13:1 compression as possible..


If you are going to build a real n/a beast then you should shoot for
14:1 - 16:1

If you are going to build a real n/a beast then you should shoot for
14:1 - 16:1


And just WHAT kind of fuel would you run in a 16:1 motor, as is sure wouldn't be pump gas :eek:

If you are going to build a real n/a beast then you should shoot for
14:1 - 16:1
Right. I guess you missed the press release last week for the 300chp 2.5RS? 11.2:1 CR... ;)

And did you even bother to read the whole thread? This isn't about building race cars. This is about low cost streetable performance gains for people who didn't get the gift of a 2.5l engine from the factory...

imprezin04,
I would go search in the Conversions forum, and if that yields nothing, but up a thread. There are certain years of late 90's Imprezas that you can pretty much just move your intake manifold wiring harness onto a 2.5 engine and plug it in and go. I don't know which ones these are. You might have to alter a few things to make it work.

But in your situation, building a "franken" motor just doesn't make sense. The heads on the 2.5l are so superior, that if you get that motor and add some cams to it, you will be 20+hp ahead of what a franken motor will.

As for the ECU, I am pretty sure that as long as you wire in the signals from the TCU to the proper locations, you won't have an issue if you want to use the RS ECU. It just won't really be worth the trouble if you aren't going to supe up the engine once it is in there. I would have to see the pinouts for your '96 and whatever RS ECU you would be getting to give you a better idea of what it would take. I expect them to be pretty similar, but some wires will need to be moved at the ECU. But potentially, it could be the sort of swap that doesn't require pulling the dash if the bulkhead connectors happen to be the same. Not having the diagrams in front of me, and not knowing what plugs are used in a '96, I can't tell you much more. But like I said, try the conversions forum. There are a few guys over there that could help...

And just WHAT kind of fuel would you run in a 16:1 motor, as is sure wouldn't be pump gas :eek:

Diesel :D

Diesel :D


Yeah, he could just throw away the spark plugs, and coil packs that way :D :D

Yeah, he could just throw away the spark plugs, and coil packs that way :D :D

No more cracked coil pack problems! :D

hey guys sorry im a few years late and all but im finally getting around to this build. My friends have been building these motors for years, but I never had a Subaru until this summer. Anyway my build goes like this, im getting a Phase II complete engine. 65k miles, the car was hit on the side and the pass side head is trashed. dual port legacy heads, and im going to be using the thicker head gaskets. This will be going into my FWD 5speed Legacy, with stock exhaust, intake and everything else. Remember, sharing is caring. :disco:

just as a double check for my frankenstein build, what thickness did you get for the four layer gasket, mine was a little over a 1/16'', which translates into .0625'' = .1588 cm. hope the dealer sold me the right one. tell me i got the right one.


~Josh~

Josh,
Those are the new thin gaskets. What block are you using?

And BTW, for those who are wondering what ever happened to Diz's motor we built? It failed miserably. But it wasn't because of this build at all. It was a high mileage, heavily abused bottom end to start with. It spun rod bearings on cylinders #2 and #4 and died an untimely death. This should not happen to any of you guys if your shortblock is healthy to start with...

15k and counting on mine! and they haven't been exactly "easy" miles. :)

just as a double check for my frankenstein build, what thickness did you get for the four layer gasket, mine was a little over a 1/16'', which translates into .0625'' = .1588 cm. hope the dealer sold me the right one. tell me i got the right one.


~Josh~


ermm, matt, I think that's the thick one. the EJ calcs page says 0.152 cm for the old EJ25s and 0.058 cm for the newer ones.


Jim

ermm, Jim,
He is measuring the uncompressed gasket, which is a poor gauge of the actual thickness once it is assembled. I base my comments on the fact that he said it was a four layer gasket. I have never seen a phase I gasket that is anything other than one that has sealed ends. If he can visually see that it is four layers, it is a phase II. Unless Subaru recently changed production on the old gaskets,which is always possible, and I just haven't seen one. But it would have to very recent since the last time I bought a phase I gasket was about 4 months ago...

agreed about the thickness measurement, except that the multi-layered steel gaskets don't have much roomm to compress.

Anyway, I ordered gaskets for a 98 EJ25 about 6 mos ago. What I got sounds exactly like what he has. I don't seem to have had any prob with the pistons in my phase 1 short block colliding with the heads....

maybe they did supercede it then...

Bump of a sort. Back in my senior year, I made this thread after adding numbers together from a paper of basic specs on EJ series engines. It got too technical for my understanding, so I stopped keeping up with it.

Currently, the mentioned MY97 2.2 that was in the vehicle is now the spare, the Impreza I now drive is a MY95 with a 1.8. I also recently aquired a MY99 2.5 RS engine (sohc) with a MY98 block. The block suffered damage due to an oil loss, presumably due to the exhaust valves not seating due to massive carbon buildup, and oil being sucked into the combustion chamber through that passage. The heads were just rebuilt however, and are having a "competition valve job" performed on them, whether that is the technical name, or slang, I am unaware. The valves are being ground so they flow as if there was more lift and create a swirl effect.

My plans were to bork the 1.8, swap the 2.2 in with the 1.8 manifold, and call it quits with a quick weekend and an easy 30hp and 35lb/ft. I am still stuck with the 2.5 "baby frankenstein" however, dismantled and begging for work.

-Shaun

I'd go a step further and do a quick gasket match port job on the 1.8 heads and put them on the 2.2 motor. That'll keep you in dualport exhaust territory and flow should be increased enough to make it worthwhile.

I'd also try to fit the 2.2 cams in the 1.8 heads too just to see if they'll work. Unless someone else has already done this.

Jay Storm

I may be missing the point, but why not just get the SOHC 2.5 heads surfaced down?

Because if you put the SOHC EJ25 heads on the 2.2 block, your compression drops to the low 8s. If you put the 1.8 heads on the 2.2 block, you keep the compression ratio of the phase II and not have to change the exhaust header to a singleport design. I don't recall the chamber volumes for the EJ18 and EJ22 heads but you may actually bump the ratio a bit with the EJ18 heads on that phaseII EJ22 block and create a little screamer for next to nothing since you already have all the parts.

I think you misunderstood, I meant to machine down the face of the heads, reducing volume and increasing compression, but my concern would be whether or not the pistons would smayak the valves. Mike, 93subi I believe is his sn, put 1.8 heads on a 2.2 block himself.

On that note, which timing belt would be used, a 2.2?

I think you misunderstood, I meant to machine down the face of the heads, reducing volume and increasing compression, but my concern would be whether or not the pistons would smayak the valves. Mike, 93subi I believe is his sn, put 1.8 heads on a 2.2 block himself.

On that note, which timing belt would be used, a 2.2?


I'm pretty sure The 1.8 and 2.2 use the same timing belt....

I'd go a step further and do a quick gasket match port job on the 1.8 heads and put them on the 2.2 motor. That'll keep you in dualport exhaust territory and flow should be increased enough to make it worthwhile.

I'd also try to fit the 2.2 cams in the 1.8 heads too just to see if they'll work. Unless someone else has already done this.

Jay Storm

You can put 1.8l cams into a 2.2, but you must use the roller rockers from the 1.8l at the same time.

As for the other question about milling the Ej25 heads down, don't do it. You can only mill off .05mm and still keep them within spec. And that still won't change the volume enough to make a difference. There's 5cc's difference between EJ25 and Ej22 heads.

I also wouldn't personally put Ej18 heads onto an Ej22. While your CR gets bumped, the valves are smaller and the ports are way smaller. I think any gain you would see from CR would be offset by poor flow. The best thing to do with the parts in hand is rebuild the Ej25 bottom end and use the engine complete in your Ej18 powered vehicle...

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No more cracked coil pack problems! :D
Just cracked blocks and heads instead... I don't think an all aluminum engine would last long on Diesel. :p

Just cracked blocks and heads instead... I don't think an all aluminum engine would last long on Diesel. :p

Well... that has actually been done :)

http://www.aluminum.org/ANTemplate.cfm?IssueDate=07/01/2005&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=8774

http://www.yachtboutique.com/BugattiMarine/Engines.htm

SO I hace a question matt. My friend and I are playing around with his phase 1 2.5 block. It is the dohc motor with the sohc phase 2 pistons, which he believes are slightly higher compression. We were going to stick on some 2.2 heads for his autocross car but we got to thinking. What would be the effect of these phase 2 pistons and a new thinner on that phase 1 block? Would we get up around the 11+:1 compression ratio?

I would be very careful putting just the phaseII pistons in the phaseI block. The phaseI rods have the pistons extending beyond the deck by (I think).040". I could be wrong on the actual amount...but regardless, the phaseII pistons are designed to work with the phaseII rods which are a bit different.

You'd be better off going with the phaseII block and then do whatever head and gasket combo you wanna try to bump the CR.

You're gonna be using the EJ22 heads...are they the singleport style? If so...it looks like there's a TON of room to open the port into an oval. You could divorce the port with a suitable header and recreate the flow of a dual port while preserving some of the pulse seperation needed for torque.

Nobody's done it yet...but it's one of the things I'm working on atm....

Jay Storm

he has already beeen using the phase 2 pistons in the phase 1 block for 2 years as a daily driver/ auto x car, without any problems, and it is run with the 1.8 ecu.

If we did use 2.2. heads, they are phase 1.

I reread the entire thread looking for that setup. I couldn't find it.

I did find many-many references to using EJ22 heads on phase II EJ25 bottom ends. The references to swapping pistons only seemed to relate to aftermarket hi-CR slugs. There is more info on the EJ25/EJ22 combo in his "my dyno results" thread. Still no mention of swapping pistons as you're talking about.

Don't let that stop you from trying though. Have at it and post results.

We might have to swap in that thin head gasket. BUt yeah for 1.5 years the phase 1 block with phase 2 pistons ran great on a 1.8 ecu. Even was revved to 7000 after I bought some crazy tweaked ECU from MAtt Monson. The way it was felt super responsive and pretty quick being in the light weight 93 body. might just have to try the thin head gasket...

I have a friend using a phase I block with phaseII pistons in his Outback. There's no issue there...

I have a friend using a phase I block with phaseII pistons in his Outback. There's no issue there...There we have it.... I stand corrected. I just wanted to make sure we were all on the same page.

As a sidebar...we'll be testing out our hacked 98RS ECU at an autocross this weekend. We'll see how the timing is effected along with the new revlimit.

Jay Storm

What do you mean by hacked ECU? Squirted?

What do you mean by hacked ECU? Squirted?No MS yet, we're waiting for the Subie code to be written. Since Yoshio doesn't do <99 ECUs we had to go somewhere else to have our revlimit raised. I don't know what the hack has done to the timing curve but at 8000rpm we hadn't hit any revlimit. I pussed out and lifted before finding the new limit. We added a shift lite and are setting it as a "lift lite" before piggybacking manual revcut to the setup. We'll start off at 6500 make a run and change the pill to 7000 make a run and then go from there until we find what works best.....or won't work anymore.

What did we do? Simply put...the ECU is overclocked by a certain percentage. It's either 20 or 25% over, which would equate to 7800 or 8125rpm respectively. The question comes in what the overclocking did to the timing curve, as it is now spread out over the new real-time values. I don't know how much of a hit power will take (if any) and currently all piggyback timing controllers are setup to retard spark and not advance it.

Jay Storm

That's a pretty neat trick. You're running stock heads along with your custom intake manifold, right? I really wonder what the car sounds like at 8k rpms. :cool:

That's a pretty neat trick. You're running stock heads along with your custom intake manifold, right? I really wonder what the car sounds like at 8k rpms. :cool:Yeah, stock (portmatched) heads and cams. I'll be able to get a better idea of the song this weekend. :cool: :devil: Hopefully we'll have some video footage to go with it. Hopefully it won't go boom but I'm ready if it does....:D

Back on topic....I will now use the "stock" 98RS ECU in my DOHC phase II hybrid by moving the 02 sensor shield pin on the 96L ECU harness and get 6500 from it...until it gets the hacked ECU if we end up squirtin' the RS.

If my 96 was a 2.2 from the start, I could just plug&play the 98RS ECU....alas, I need to move 1 pin.:rolleyes:


Jay Storm

Well,
It's better than my '95 that requires all new connectors to run the '98 ECU... ;)

so with phase II pistons in a phase I block, does that make the pistons NOt go past the deck surface? or would you have to change to different rods, even though the phase II rods have a bigger bearing diameter.....can you throw a phase II crank into a phase I block? but at that point its pointless, might as well throw in a phase II block anyway.

~Josh~

mmmmk. so ive been thinking about this one.

engine: '99 ej22e phase II
trans: 4eat! (i read somewhere in this thread about it not working?)
donor 2.5 block: not sure if phase I or II would be better

1- will the car throw a CEL with the 2.5 shortblock stuck into an ej22?
2- what potential problems are we looking at? increased wear?
3- 89 octane vs. 91
4- california smog issues. legal?
5- total parts list of what is needed.
6- how tough is it to actualy do this. im sure i could con kostamojen into helping me...

1- Shouldn't throw a code.
2- No potential problems other than speeding tickets...:rolleyes:
2a- EJ25 makes more torque, so the converter may load up more at idle meaning you'll be holding the car back more....
3- 87 to start, you have a knock sensor to reign in 87 octane if needed. You can always go up in octane right?
4- No codes, all sensors function, "don't ask-don't tell...legal"
5- EJ25 shortblock, EJ25 headgaskets....that's pretty much all.
6- Not tough at all. Time consuming if this is your first one, but well within a weekend of effort.
mmmmk. so ive been thinking about this one.

engine: '99 ej22e phase II
trans: 4eat! (i read somewhere in this thread about it not working?)
donor 2.5 block: not sure if phase I or II would be better

1- will the car throw a CEL with the 2.5 shortblock stuck into an ej22?
2- what potential problems are we looking at? increased wear?
3- 89 octane vs. 91
4- california smog issues. legal?
5- total parts list of what is needed.
6- how tough is it to actualy do this. im sure i could con kostamojen into helping me...

cool i was hoping storm or monsoon would reply.

ok so what about phase I vs phase II block mated to the phase II ej22? advantages/disadvantages? i know i saw stuff about it reading through but after a while it all became muddle.

Resurrected...again - thanks to Jay Storm for enlightening me.

Here's what I want to do- current car is a '96 OBS all stock motor (OBDII), full custom exhaust, modded stock intake. I got to thinking of a hi-comp build by using a 2.5 block/2.2 NA single port heads and new, possibly modded HGs with the otherwise factory configuration. I do want to use EM eventually, probably piggyback, but this also seems streetable on with the stock 2.2 ECM, with what gas? I don't track the car but I like spirited drives up the canyon(s) when I get a chance. This is in Boulder county so I'm at anywhere from 5,000-10,000 feet from sea level. I'm not planning on camming, tubo'ing, swapping, or anything serious.

A little more power out of my current setup, which I love, is all I want. My car is about to turn 170K on the factory drivetrain. I just had my clutch replaced with the OEM exedy kit as well as oil pump reseal, cam seals, timing belt/seals. I maintain my car as best I can in every way. I currently get 25-27 MPG per tank- hwy, city and mtn roads. Is it a bad idea to have a 2.5 block fitted to the old setup? The car runs great as is. This was just an idea I had to up the ante a bit. Thought it was new, but then again you learn something new every day. Thanks for all the great info everybody!

Anyone know what a tubo is? :D

Anyone know what a tubo is? :D

Tubo? :confused:

ever heard of www.websters.com? or speelcheq?

Okay, sorry for the earlier moments of stupidity. Someone please chime in.

First off, i'm curious who's still running this setup- in particular the ej25 w/ ej22 head combo. Matt- if you're out there I'm wondering if you blew anything up...or how long it took ;)

If i build the ej25 block and 2.2 single port heads (to keep existing exhaust) with the new thick OEM HG everything else will be plug and play on a 96 GF4, since i'm obd-2?? Is it too risky to run a phase 1 block? Will the phase 2 block mate to the early 5 speeds? Most techs I know at local suby shops say mixing phase 1 and 2 just won't work. Lastly, mileage will always be a concern (to a degree), so wouldn't a piggyback make for a better DD/ commuter that still has a little go? Thanks!

mine went about 30k with no probs at all until some bish in a minivan pulled out in front of my brother while he was driving it. car is totalled, but the motor STILL runs great. in fact I'm looking for something else to stick it in.

my car and heads were MY94. it worked great with a phase I 2.5 shortblock with thick headgaskets. I don't think the head design changed that much from 94 to 96 (besides the exhaust ports), so I don't know why it wouldn't work for you.

I can't speak on the OBD2 implications, but I was amazed at how seamlessly my 94 ECU adapted. I'd almost swear fuel mileage increased, but I don't have much data to back it up. I did average 30+ mpg quite often on long highway roadtrips. I never did try it on anything less than 92 octane, but never heard a hint of knock with that

The biggest difference you'll find in trannies is 99+ have 8 bolt holes in the bell, where the older ones only had 4. not sure if there are any major issues with switching between the 2. I can tell you I put in a mildly used stock RS clutch when I put mine together, and ended up wishing I'd gone with something stronger.

Jim

I'm still planning on doing this IF my little hard working EJ22 ever bites the dust, but damn, I look back at my posts when I was basically thinking to myself, "any week now..." yet here I am almost 2 years later and just got a new set of tires last night, and doing a front brake job this coming weekend, and have an oil change in another 1000 miles at 190,000! :lol:

These little buggers are mighty strong and I SWEAR it's running better now than it was at 150,000 miles. I have a phase II block with about 50,000 miles ready at the waiting, but I see no point on trashing a perfectly good running (original) engine that gets nearly 30mpg on 87 octane.

*knocking on wood this post doesn't jinx me*

Yea I'm about to turn 170,000 on the factory driveline, sans a new clutch. I know this is nothing for these motors. As Jim said the car's totalled, motor still runs great...my 93 L had 220,000 on the original driveline when I slid it in the canyon and wrecked it, and it was running great.

I t