http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2001/06/21/statedrag.DTL

Again, please don't street race.. If you want to race, go to a REAL track. I know those WRXs have some power and you might be tempted to race the hot looking BMW323ci next to you, but please resist the urge. These dumbasses didn't. This happened a few blocks from where I live.. :(

I heard this on the news early this morning. At 100 mph, the scene would be terribly gruesome ... and sad. No race is worth this kind of outcome. They were probably just goofing off, but as they killed someone's mother/daughter/wife, one paid with his own life, and the other will have to live with the knowledge that they killed two people and hurt all their relatives in one moment of poor judgement. If they identify the driver who left the scene, he will likely be charged with voluntary manslaughter or worse. Very sad day.

Wait a minute, let me get this straight..... The only people involved in the accident or should i say collission were the volvo (innocent bystander) and the T-bird (one of the 2 cars racing)?

If this is correct then why would i stick around after seeing the guy i raced crash into another car?

Not to sound cruel, but these are the consequences of the risks people take, you should know what you can be getting yourself into.

Some people are just not very smart about the way they do things, and sometimes it is out of your control.

If i raced the t-bird and saw him crash, i would drive off even faster than the speed i was racing. Im sorry but he is the one that crashed into that poor old ladies volvo. reality sucks.

Life is a biznatch.

rip

EJ20WRX

"If you cant hang do get involoved"

you wouldn't feel guilty about leaving the sceen of the accident?

It takes 2 to race dude. :(

From the news, they said that the other car was a "Small Blue Car" Probably a Honda SI, but it could also have easily been a WRX or RS that was racing. The problem with our cars is that we feel we can take on the world with AWD and now a Turbo.

Basically if you want to go fast in your car......DO IT ON THE TRACK. I admit that I catch myself speeding when I get into some twisties, and have been very tempted to race the occational "punk" in a Honda, knowing that I would spank his ass if we did race, but I also know that I am taking a risk with other peoples lives and do not want that on my consense, or drivers liscence.

To those who DO race on the street, and drive to the point of being dangerous....that is your choice.....but do not run away and hide if the outcome becomes bad. Take RESPONSIBILITY for your actions.

To the one who ran from the accident.....he/she is a coward, and I hope they catch them and teach them what they had a part in doing.

Be realistic people....I know that when "the fast and the furious" comes out, there are going to be a-lot more incidents just like this on the news to follow. I wish Hollywood would take responsibility for their actions....but that's asking for a miracle....and that's just not going to happen.

I for one am going to be careful and enjoy my suby....just not at such a volitile speed. I want to live for many more decades to come.

Sorry for the rant......

Cheers

EddyL.

Be safe out there. Peace

rant on man, rant on.....

I agree completely with ya.

After seeing the Fast and the Furious, I realized that more and more people would be encouraged by the images of fast cars and street racing.

I feel very sory for the innocent victim involved. I hope that dumb a** who didn't stop feels guilty for the rest of his life.

I'm not blaming the Movies.........I'm blaming the idiots who see something on the screen and think they can pull it off themselves.

Watch and see.

I agree......people NEED to take responsibility for their actions and not blame it on outside influence (movies, friends, and such). There is no excuse for what these people do if things go bad. It's their fault.....period.

Cheers

EddyL.

I'm sure that "old lady" as you referred to her 37-years, would have liked to live a few more good years, too. I wonder, though, would you feel so callous if that had been your mom?

When you decide to race on the city streets, it is your responsibility, not hers, to see that the coast is clear! If they had collided at 45 mph, they'd probably both be in the hospital with body casts instead of at the morgue!

We've all seen this scenario too many times. A guy gets a fast car and immediately believes he can drive as well as a Schumacher! And it just ain't so!

Or some drunk crashes into a family, killing everyone in the other car, and he walks away without a scratch. To me, it's the same thing, and if you feel no remorse ... we're wasting our breath!

The person that ran was not a coward, but as you guys would say "realistic."

I am not going to lie and say that i would stick around, I would run too.

These are the reactions of the things of this nature. Its not like these are legal events where if an accident happens it is part of the sport or acceptable like demolition derby.

This is the way the world turns people. This to me is a lot different than a hit and run.

Why would the guy stick around? he is not the person who crashed into the volvo. It was the tbirds fault/ mistake and paid with his life, thats it case closed.

unfortunately things work a little differently in american society.;)

Not trying to be the bad guy, just speaking the truth and being real.

I wonder how many of you would actually stick around, i know i wouldnt, guess you shouldnt race me, lol.

EJ20WRX

I have to say taking responsibility is incredibly hard but in the end it you will feel better that you did. I had one incident that I did at a very young and dumb age. The only person involved was myself and I came out alive. Basically I came around a corner way to fast in a Mitsubishi Precis. I trashed my parents car but the first thing I did was call the cops and told them I was an idiot. Anyway they were not happy with me, because I was dumb, but they were more willing to help me out because I was honest.

Running is not always the best thing to do, infact it could be the worst thing. Sticking around and admitting your stupidity is damn hard though. In the long run it will make you feel much better.

Just know what you are doing before you get yourself into anything. Something I still need to work on...

I'd hesitate to call all streetracing bad. Unfortunately, what you have up in the bay area is a complete flusterfrick of cars and people who aren't there to race. Try going out to the country roads, with no more than 20 cars, and sight for a mile in each direction. Then the only people at risk are those racing, and they have chosen to accept that risk. Innocent people don't pull out in front of you, spectators don't line the roads.

Now...as far as the stoplight battles, as someone who was grown up around fast cars, I don't have a problem with them. Then again, I won't go up to 100mph on a road with driveways and sidestreets. I'd say the usual rule of thumb is up to 15mph over the speed limit off a red light, then slow it down. We have a lot of 35mph roads around here, so I'll go to about 50. Doesn't seem to be too bad to me...and if the other guy wants to keep going, he can have fun by himself. If he starts to try and cut through traffic going to fast, I'll just let him go. These moves fall in the "ricer flyby" category. I think if you're smart about it, and careful, there's nothing wrong with a stoplight battle.

Then we have the issue of stopping if the other person wrecked. I'd feel compelled to stop and help the person and the other people they hit if there was another vehicle involved. However, knowing I could face jail time if one of them died, I'd also be thinking about getting out of there ASAP. I mean, the other guy is the one who screwed up, right...so it's his problem.

If I pull up to a red light, the road ahead is empty for a while, the light turns green, and I race up to 50mph (35 limit) and the other guy decides to keep accelerating up to the traffic ahead and plows the back of a minivan at 75mph, the hell with him. If someone stopped and said "Well, these guys were racing, and then that guy hit the minivan"...I'd be in jail anyways for assault on the "witness".

You have to be responsible for your own actions...you can't help what the other guy does. That's why when you see them swerving or driving unsafe (unsafe being other than just speeding)...then you back off and let them go. If I got sent up the creek for something stupid someone else did because I may have been racing them prior to that...fool better have died in the wreck, because I'd be looking for him when I got out. It's strange how the issue plays out...let's blame the guy who didn't wreck for the death of the moron in the other car who screwed up. Gotta love our justice system. :)

Would I stay?? To be honest I really can't say what I would do. Sitting behind my computer, with no pressure or stress influensing my decision, i'd say YES. I would stay and try to help those that were hurt....if possible.

Now would this happen....don't know. I may panic and run......have you ever watched those hi-speed persuit shows where a person runs from the police when he tries to pull them over, and when they finally catch the person, or they wreck......the only reason they ran from the cops was that they paniced and fled....when all that they did wrong, if anything at all, was they had a burnt tail light, or a minor infraction.

I agree that in the real world, things don't go the way you would like them to. But I still stongly believe that you should take responsibility for action you had part in.

Now if I was racing some person and they happen to crash....and it has gotten close for example: (A punk in a Civic tried to follow me in the back roads and nearly crashed trying to take a curve that I took easily in my RS, thinking his car could turn as fast or faster then my car) at that time I just kept driving. He didn't crash, but I did loose site of him as he over cooked the road and took a trip over of an embankment. I saw him later looking foolish, dirty, and driving really slow, but un-hurt.

Everone has their reasons for doing what they do. All I say is that they take responsibility for their actions and fess up to their mistakes.

If you wish to drive like those that did last night.....fine. Just don't get me involved. It's your choice and no one can stop you from doing such. I respect everyones decision, even if "I" think it is wrong or not.....that's not my place to say it, they need to find it out themselves.

Enjoylife, you only live once.

Cheers

EddyL.

The most I've ever street raced is the occasional Honduh, But I only race up to the speed limit, and I almost always win! (AWD!!!). Once time, a guy blasted by me and he got a ticket by a hiding Highway Patrol while I slowed at the limit. :lol:

But I realize, I may not have been in danger, but I put the Honda that was pursuing me in danger to himself, MYself and to others around me...Therefor, KEEP IT ON THE TRACK!!! Much more fun too! No radar detector required ;)

Originally posted by EddyRS
Everone has their reasons for doing what they do. All I say is that they take responsibility for their actions and fess up to their mistakes.

Did the guy who fled the scene make a "mistake"? He committed a minor misdemeanor violation of vehicle code 23109(a) by entering into a speed contest with the other vehicle. That's all. It's the driver of the other vehicle who made the "mistake" which led to his killing of a person not involved with the speed contest, as well as himself.

I don't think the driver of the car who fled the scene is avoiding taking responsibility for his actions...he entered into a speed contest, he didn't wreck, he went on his way. It's harsh, but in some respects I can't say I blame the guy.

Let's look at it this way...say the other "racer" in the thunderbird didn't die, but he still killed the woman in the volvo...the driver of the thunderbird would go on trial for vehicular manslaughter and end up in prison. Now, instead of that, he has paid for his mistake with his life. As far as I'm aware, vehiclar manslaughter is not punishable by the death penalty through our legal system. So he's already paid a far higher price than he would if he lived.

However...since the driver of the thunderbird is dead, and our society insists on putting the blame on someone that is alive and can be "punished"...the other driver comes into play. He's out there...he can be caught and put in jail. Here's a good question...if the thunderbird driver lives and ends up in jail, do you think anything happens to the other driver besides getting a citation after the fact for a speed contest? No, of course not...someone is in jail, and in the eyes of the family, "justice" has been served.

I hope the family of the woman in the volvo doesn't get on TV and whine and complain about the other driver. I'd really hope they accept the driver of the thunderbird paid the ultimate price, his own life, and let it go at that since he is not alive to face trial.

Was this other driver holding a gun to the head of the thunderbird driver and making him race? No. Would the driver of the thunderbird have been speeding down that road if the other car wasn't there? Possibly. Could he have very well killed the woman in the volvo and himself if he only hit her at 65? Likely. I don't see how people are so thick-skulled and think there's any real justification for holding the other driver responsible for the outcome in this situation. It's absolutely absurd to me...some thing I guess I just won't understand...

saying that F&F cause people to race is just like saying playing quake cause people to go on rampage shooting. My $.02

Reguardless of what this person DID or DIDNOT do, he is still "PART" to blame for the accident. If he did not race the other driver. All partys would be alive now. That is fact. What is not fact is, would that the one who did get into the accident find another person to race.....we will never know.

I agree that the one who fled should only get the fine for what he did. Speeding, and possibly reckless driving. Think about it. You go to jail for going over 100 on the freeway. They were doing this on a "city" street, and in a construction zone.

Should this person be charged with manslaughter......NO! I would complain myself if he did. I agree he did not cause the accident. The one who did payed the highest price, one that I wish never to happen to anyone. 2 lives were lost, lets not make it 3. This third individual should be charged for what he did. Nothing more. I do not believe in revenge, and yes this wonderful justice system wants revenge. Take responsibility for your actions and be judged by only that. But that won't happen, and this person will likely become the scape goat for the woman's family suffering. That is a shame.

It probably is best that he is not found, we don't need another cause to crack down on the rest of us. I just hope he has learned from his experience, and next time chooses not to race.

Enough said.......I've said all that I'm going to say on this. Last reply on this.

Talk to you all on other subjects

Cheers All

Eddy L.

Hey Eddy,

Didn't mean to jump on you about your comment earlier...I see we're more on the same page than I thought. And for clarification, yes you can go to jail when cited for Speed in excess of 100 mph, vehicle code 22348(b), but it is a general speeding violation, and applies regardless of your being on a 70mph freeway, or a 25mph residential road.

Though I don't think one could get a ticket for speed over 100 mph when the officers have no idea what speed the other car was travelling at. He could have got to 80mph and slowed down, and someone saw them before that...the thunderbird could have been trying to catch up to him and wrecked...you never know.

Anyways...if they were to find the guy, I'd agree that a citation for a speed contest vc23109(a) would be appropriate, as well as the "double fine" clause due to it being in a construction zone. So at that point, the maximum you're looking at is a fine just under $1000, doubled for construction...30 days of impound on the vehicle, 30 days in jail, and six months without a license. This is assuming we're talking about a first offense here. So it's about $1200 to get out of impound, plus other fine and such, comes out just under $3500. And you can bet if this guy gets caight and gets a speed contest ticket, he'll get the absolute maximum punishment the law allows.

In response, I agree with the people who think that it is up to the people who see F&F to determine whether or not they are being stupid or not for street racing at 100mph on an empty straight road. People who make a mistake and blame that mistake on things like cool movies, songs, or video games ruin it for everybody else who enjoys those things responsibly.

Unfortunately, those idiots who look at F&F and say, "Duh.. Cool! I bet I can make my car go that fast with flames shooting out of my exhaust!" are out there. Especially people who spend hundreds of dollars on a 5' tall wing and think it is giving them downforce. :rolleyes:

this happened right in front of my neighborhood! i hope i don't get mistaken for the small blue car, being as i am an owner of a blue wrx. street racing is just stupid, especially on such a busy street.
pj

*sigh*........

becareful driving guys!.. there are a lot of these idiots out there, you never know whats going to happen!

the funny thing is i just saw the news and they said that police think that there might not have been a second car involved after all.

EJ20WRX

oh boy, so now can we discuss mistakes made by the local authorities instead?! :lol:

Just a thought, as many have said it takes two to race. The other person involved in the race IS responsible and I'm quite frightened for my own safety that there are some individuals out there who feel that if someone else "crashes" that it's their mistake, and that they are solely at fault. Again, it takes two to race. The other party involved in the race ***IS*** guilty of reckless endagerment and fleeing a crime scene at the very least. I don't know the circumstances of the event but I would speculate that if the positions of the cars were reversed the crash still would have happened.

For many here I'm simply preaching to the choir. But, if you do feel that the other party had no responsibility please take a moment to think about this:

SOMEONE IS DEAD

Death is permanent, it cannot be reversed. It is forever. Someone whom others cared for deeply is gone forever and it wasn't supposed to happen. Make no doubt about it, when people street race and an unwilling participant dies as a result both racers are involved in a murder.

C ya, Joe

It takes 2 to race, and a minimum of 1 to speed.

I still think that the case is closed both the innocent person and "racer/speeder" died, thats redeemed.

The other person i think isnt totally innocent but should not be anywhere near a manslaughter/murder, etc charge.

I would have ran too.

And yes i know what DEAD means. Just different ways of thinking. We always seem to have such a by the book opinion when we view a situation from outside eyes, im just looking at it in the way that i would react if it were me. I am responsible and no coward, but i know what i need to do and what i dont need to do in a situation.

Its just sad that if there was another person involved and they stuck around the consequences would be much harsher than neccesay because there is no one else to blame, and people want redemption.


The truth hurts.

EJ20WRX

I can't believe anyone would even consider not stopping. Now I remember why I drive 64mph on the freeway, there's a bunch of idiots on the road.

I don't post here very often but I do visit and read many of the topics. This is the first time I have really lost respect for anyone on this board. If I read the words "responsible" and "street racing" in the same sentence again I am going to throw up.:(

Driving 65mph could still get you killed, look at the poor old lady victim in the volvo.

I am disgusted by many things too. If its not a hit and run, im not sticking around.

Why would you stick around? You already know you are doing something illegal (street racing, driving 100mph in 35/50etc).

He is only guilty of traffic violations, and if i choose between getting caught and not getting caught, what do you think i would choose, or most people choose?;)



EJ20WRX

Pollya-- oops, I mean StankFootZ, you find it hard to believe that someone would consider not stopping? HAHahhaahAharhahahaharhar!

What next, you are going to be suprised that the bank robber does not stick around after a robbery results in someone getting shot? When the car-jacker does not pull over and wait for the cops after he kills the person driving the car he was trying to steal?

Furthermore, we don't know for a fact that the "blue car" was racing the T-bird, and based upon the assumptions that are being made here I would not have stopped either. My Subaru has a mean hole-shot, if the Civic next to me takes that as racing, and continues to accelerate up to 80mph when I had lifted at 45 (don't want to spend more time in the intersection than needed) and he plows into a crowd of nuns, am I supposed to stop and wait for the cops, knowing that enraged bystanders swear that I was racing, and that I'll have to hire a lawyer to try and convince judge/jury otherwise? Or should I just split and cut my losses?

Even if he is guilty, turning himself in won't do a thing to bring the dead back, so why fret over if he does or does not?

Vern!, Comparing someone who would leave the scene of the accident to a bank robber or car thief proves my point. Criminals are bad... Duh! That's what I am saying. I didn't think anyone on the board was a criminal, I guess that's why I was suprised.

Anyway, as far as I am concerned there are two issues here: Responsibility and Compassion.

Responsibility: If you are street racing, you are not a responsible person. Period. If you are willing to “take responsibility for your actions" or not isn’t the issue. Responsible people don’t street race to start.

Compassion: If you witness a serious accident (not just a fender bender), whether you are involved in a race or just ridding by on your bike. If you don’t stop to make sure everyone is okay, you don’t have any compassion.

What is so complicated about that?

Sorry to bug everyone, lets just keep breaking as many laws as possible and not worry about it. Everyone on this board is a perfect driver anyway, there's no chance we'll be the one hitting some innocent person.

Blah, I'm getting off the soap box. I'm on vacation and already burnt out with all this.

Have fun everyone!

My bad. Enjoy your weekend, and the rest of your vacation StankFootZ.

Next time I'm in the area I'll buy you a beer, provided you are not driving at the time (before you guys complain about your public trans. system, visit LA! I was in HEAVEN up there!) :)

This is exactly why I dont road race.

I realize this one has been dormant for a while. I often see kids (punks basically) racing each other on busy, congested roads. It is definitely hazardous activity. Im personally of the opinion that the responsible party in this accident is deceased.

I would predict that prosecution of the driver who "fled" would be very problematic.

See the below link for a similar incident and note that the DA couldnt stick the other driver with anything. In this case, he did stop, I believe, although, I dont believe he was required to do so by law under the circumstances.

However, it was probably viewed more as "a dumb ass street racing punk killed only himself" kind of deal, instead of a non-race participant also getting killed.

http://www.sjpd.org/pressreleases/04-15-01_fatal_traffic_collision.htm

A fact of life...however shocking it may be...is that STREET RACING DOES HAPPEN on a daily basis.

I do it! I would have left too. I just waxed a Z-28 today. The woman that I raced almost ran into an intersection on a red. She was a sorry driver. Had she met the ultimate fate, I would have cruided on. I slowed down...she was losing and wanted to beat the lowly 2L Turbo what was waxing her ass! I beat her and back off. If she commited suicide...that is her baby!

I side with EJ20WRX on this one. It is a misdimeanor...no manslaughter.

We have a point to prove...the Subaru is not just a dyke mobile!

Just my $02/100.:o

Andy

Gotta go with my Boyz Andy and Andy on this one folks...if I had farked up...I'd stay...if not...I'm hitting 150 to get away. I have done it before(he didn't hit anyone he ran into the side walk, not my fault). I'm not staying so they can crusify my black a$$.

Ken

if i was racing someone and he/she got into an accident, i would immediately make a right, circle the block, and come up behind the scene of the accident just to make sure i CANNOT be blamed... i kno.. its cruel, but i dont have to go to jail becuz of an asian who couldnt handle his civic si.

but i dont even have my wrx yet, wat am i smoking.

The question is whether or not one ought to race on the street.

I would hope street racers end up in jail w/their cars impounded instead of taking out innocent people. We would all be better off...

Racing on the track is so much better because a driver can push their car to ten tenths. You can't do that when you're dodging errant minivans...

streetracing is dangerous.
but that's what makes it fun. granted there are people out there who do not know their own limits, but why should that keep the rest of us from having a little fun? i feel i am fairly responsible and a skilled driver. i have a little speed test every now and then. but i stay within my own limits. i know when i am pushing the unsafe limits. why should the more reckless ppl take the little rush out of it that the rest of us would like to have?

i was in my friend's s2000 racing a z28 on a mountain road at night. no other cars. the camaro thought he could corner, and understeered his way into the cliff, jamming a wheel up into the engine and sparking down the middle of the road sideways. we STOPPED like responsible racers do, to make sure he was alright, and that he had a phone to call a towtruck. once that was settled, we left before the cops could come. would we have stopped if there were other cars? i donno, probably not, because of the already-mentioned consequences; it was not our fault he went out of control, but we would have gotten in trouble anyway, thanks to our wonderful sheriff's dept. . but the point is, use your judgement, there should be a common courtesy extended to fellow car enthusiasts who may or may not need assistance.

and no offense stankfootz.... but u criticize these streetracers, about being irresponsible, yet you hang your own sister out of your car at 75mph just to take pictures of it?
here's the thread:
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86205

i guess we all have our own standards about being safe and responsible! haha....
ok, gonna go race over to the drugstore to get these pics of my rex smokin a civic downtown!
ha just playin.... be safe all....
MAK

sorry, double post....
ok off to the rush hour freeway battle~!
ha
MAK

Just for the record, we were on an empty side road going 45mph (if you could read correctly). Everytime a car even got close to us we'd pull over on the side of the road. If you could see what you were doing you would see there was ZERO danger. Most of the shots that look really good is just our hands out the window.

I don't even know how to respond to the this anymore. I thought I made my point before but I see that it was a waste of time because you guys are... are... you're all just really....

Off to work.

Love
Scott French

(I gotta wax off some Civics and Cameros on my way to work....to prove things...like...I have a small.....)

I am not sure What I would do if it were me... One thing that you have to remember in CA is that ALL PARTIES are charged with ALL CRIMES committed in an unlawful act.

The drive of the BMW could face Felony VManslaughter for ALL OF THE VICTIMS! So even though this guy didn't wreck, he is still responsible for the outcome of the "Race". Something like this happened in Livermore a little while ago... 2 guys racing, one lots it straight into some type of barrier, he dies... the guy he was racing is now facing Vmanslaughter!

I do drive fast, but only as the conditions permit... I try not to go triples unless the FREEWAY is open and can handle it...

I would love to go to the track. I haven't been autoX'ing yet... and well, Willow springs on a weekly basis I think would get a little expensive... I am thinking about Speedring more and more, but haven't gone yet and not sure I like carts... I really want to race GT on the ALM Circuit... I wonder if Subaru is looking for a driver?!~

Josh :p

Ignorance should hurt, but in a perfect world ignorance would only hurt those who are ignorant, in this case other inocent people paid for someones stupidity with their life. ALL street racers are a threat to anyone on the road, and I have no respect for them, the scary thing is and I think you will all agree the people on the road that are truely good drivers, and have had track time DONT street race because they know better, so what does that mean? All the in experienced drivers are the ones street racing, now thats scary. I won't lie, I drive and ride my MC's at elevated speeds, but either on the track on on mines road or the like, flying down 280 or 101 in and out of traffic is simply moronic, and to the guy who said " YEA STREET RACEING IS DANGEROUS, BUT THATS WHAT MAKES IT FUN" all I can say is, go get a revolver and a bullet and do us a favor and play russian ruelet, its dangerous, sound like fun?

ok, nice example. ya got me.
but, ANY racing is dangerous, even on a track, and that is what makes it fun.
it is the RUSH. the exhileration.
skydiving is dangerous and so its fun.
bungeejumping is dangerous, and so its fun.
we all sacrifice SAFETY to make and drive our Subarus FASTER, because its FUN, you yourself admitted enjoying the occaisional excess of speed. if u read what i wrote, u'll see that i agreed with staying within certain limits, especially traffic.
don't talk down to me about it, or you yourself would not be in this club. we all just want to have fun, and it is worth it for all of us to crave a better performing car so we can push the limits of safety, even if solely on a track. unfortunately of course there are those who are reckless about it, and ruin the little fun the rest of us try to have.

stankfootz et al - i'm sorry if i have offended anyone, i thought my first post was not that offensive when i wrote it, but looking back i can see where misunderstandings could have happened. everyone will have their own opinion on this, and this was just mine. i did not mean for it to be personal, i did use your words of "hanging" your sister "out of the sunroof." i tried not to make any assumptions, just point it out. and i was joking about racing off to the store and thru rush hour traffic, hence the 'ha" after.:)

anyway, peace all, drive with AWARENESS....
MAK

p.s. i know that waxing civics and camaros will not make me bigger in other areas. dam! i guess there is no hope for me
:mad: