Hey guys, I've been doing some googling about what tires to get for an sti and have seen a lot of guys on the evolution forums using toyo proxes. Anyone else have experience with them in weather? I've seen a lot of guys here using falkens and pirelli... don't hear much about toyo's.

Which Proxes? There are bunch of Toyos with that designation.

Proxy 4 looks pretty interesting...

I use proxes f1s's or whatever they are called. they are very nice tires... great for both dry and wet conditions...

im getting the proxes 4s tomorrow. ill tell you what i think. 215/45 r17 by the way

Proxes 4 are one of the best all-season tires you can get(currently have them on my car, and love them). Of course, they'll be a pretty dramatic step down from the stock tires in both grip and sidewall stiffness. If you'd tell us where you live, or at least the general climate, we can probably determine which tire in the Proxes line would be best for you.

Nj/pa

anyone try the toyo ra-1 ? heard these tires where very good , closest that we can get to a r-compound tire , here in the u.s. that is . :D

The RA-1s are racing compound and are excellent. SCC did a competiton with Tuned WRXs vs STI. The RA-1s managed to give one of the WRXs an edge of the sti on handling.

TheToyo proxes RA1 are great. There work in all weather, but be careful w/ alot of water.

The treads are soft and may not last long is always driving agressively.

I understand that the Pirelli Corsa are on par with the RA1.

But if you are really looking for streat tires, get the Bridgestone Potenza S03. As there wear, there grip better, unlike the other tires, which looses their grip

TheToyo proxes RA1 are great. There work in all weather, but be careful w/ alot of water.


No, they don't work at all in ice, snow, or very cold temperatures.

There are not snow tires. We all know that. Get snow tires for that.

I've been on my FZ4's for the last 30,000 miles. I see no reason to change them, even with winter setting in around here. Wet performance was excellent for the first 15,000 miles. Now they break loose kinda easily in the rain. Dry performace is average for a high-performance all-season. They're as good in the snow as a new set of RE-92's, but they wear a lot better, so you can get 3 full winters out of them. They're a good replacement for the RE-92's, but there are better tires out there (for a price).

Please visit Tire Rack.

I am a Bridgestone fanatic and there do work well. There have wonderful technology in them.

Keeps your ride safe.

I had proxes (p1s maybe?)a few years ago on a E36 BMW, and was very happy with them.

I've been on my FZ4's for the last 30,000 miles. I see no reason to change them, even with winter setting in around here. Wet performance was excellent for the first 15,000 miles. Now they break loose kinda easily in the rain. Dry performace is average for a high-performance all-season. They're as good in the snow as a new set of RE-92's, but they wear a lot better, so you can get 3 full winters out of them. They're a good replacement for the RE-92's, but there are better tires out there (for a price).

The Proxes 4's are a brand new ultra-high performance all season tire, and the consensus is that they are worlds superior to the older FZ4s. However, there aren't too many reviews out there yet on Nasioc; there are some detailed reviews on wrxfanatics.com. Edgeracing.com has the cheapest prices on these tires. Unfortunately, Tire Rack doesn't carry Toyos. :(

My last set of tires were Toyo Proxes T1-S, and I currently have a set of Proxes 4.

Data on the T1-S should be pretty easy to find, as they have been around a while and used on many higher performance cars. See Mike Shield's tires page for a better description than I can provide:

SPD USA Wheel & Tire Page (http://spdusa.com/wheels_and_tires.htm)

The Proxes 4 is a T1-S casing with a different tread pattern and rubber compound, and carries an "M+S" rating. The compund is slightly harder, and the tread has W shaped blocks instead of the T1-S's V grooves. The tread pattern works very well for water evacuation. I have driven on the T1-S in snow, but not the 4's. I'd do it again without hesitation, but I hear you're not supposed to.

The feel and ride in normal driving is indistinguishable from the T1-S. As you approach the limit of adhesion, the Proxes 4 requires more steering input for a given corner, and my GTech tells me that the T1-S has a limit that is higher by ~.02-.03G. Both are very predictable and easy to feel when driven hard.

Both are among the lightest tires in any given size, but this is partly due to a sidewall that is rounder and not as stiff as some performance benchmarks like the Falken Azenis RT-215 (my weekend tires) or the Bridgestone S03 (which I've never owned).

If you're looking for a capable summer like tire that doesn't suck in the winter, the Proxes 4 might be good. If you only get a little snow, and the roads are plowed when you drive, the T1-S would be a better match for the STi.

Having said all that, I might use either one on an STi as a winter tire, but I'd get a different brand with a STIFF sidewall for the other 3 seasons.

I am getting the Toyo proxes 4 tomorrow too, I will post impressions. I am coming from bald re-92's so Im sure ill be happy.

-Jeff

Please visit Tire Rack.

I am a Bridgestone fanatic and there do work well have wonder technology in them.

Keep your ride safe.
"Wonder technology"? Is that a new feature to be listed next to the rest of the UNI-T AQ ABCDEFG crap they list out for every tire?

Bridgestones... now with WONDER TECHNOLOGY! Best tire evAr!!1!1


:lol: I like Bridgestones too, don't get me wrong... in my opinion the Potenza RE950 is one of the most underrated tires ever.

i also have the proxes 4. i've had them for about 10k miles, and love them. great traction, quiet (no noticeable increase over the stock potenza's), and i LOVE the look of the tread. we don't get much rain out here in southern cali, but i've driven in a couple of storms so far, and wet traction hasn't been a problem. BTW, i have the 225/45/17's. good luck!

i use proxes too, i lov them, they work well in any kind of weather, rain snow or shine. they are a great tire to ride on, good luck with your choice.

I know this doesn't matter, but how do the proxes look in 225/45/17, are they beefy looking or skinny? I have seen some 225's like falkens that look huge, and then some 225s that look skinny.


-Jeff

Is that a new feature to be listed next to the rest of the UNI-T AQ ABCDEFG crap they list out for every tire?

So you make it sound like their feature listing is confusing for you and yet you spelled it right? (Unit-T AQII is current hotness :))

Originally posted by 2Stroke:
The feel and ride in normal driving is indistinguishable from the T1-S. As you approach the limit of adhesion, the Proxes 4 requires more steering input for a given corner, and my GTech tells me that the T1-S has a limit that is higher by ~.02-.03G. Both are very predictable and easy to feel when driven hard.

Thanks for the input, 2Stroke. Just how high were the numbers you recorded, anyway? I have the Proxes 4 in the 215/45-17 size on SSR Comps and would guess they are good for about 0.9 g's.
An excellent all-around tire in every respect--sharp handling (for the street), quiet ride, and even comfortable riding in colder temperatures. Best buy out there for the $$, IMO. Only question is how well they'll perform in a snowstorm (but won't be long before we find out the answer to that one.:D.)

I am also running the Toyo Proxes 4 for daily driving and I think they are a great tire. The sidewall is a bit mushy and feels floaty at speed, but bumping up the tire pressure a couple of pounds took care of that. The tread is quite grippy and looks awesome. The shoulders are rounded so the tires look a bit on the skinny side, but the tread pattern definitely makes up for it. They don't feel as stiff nor sticky as the Falken Azenis Sports, but they are a far better daily driver tire.

I don't think you can go wrong with the Proxes 4, especially if you use another tire at the track.

Matt

Thanks for the input, 2Stroke. Just how high were the numbers you recorded, anyway? I have the Proxes 4 in the 215/45-17 size on SSR Comps and would guess they are good for about 0.9 g's.
An excellent all-around tire in every respect--sharp handling (for the street), quiet ride, and even comfortable riding in colder temperatures. Best buy out there for the $$, IMO. Only question is how well they'll perform in a snowstorm (but won't be long before we find out the answer to that one.:D.)Your butt dyno is well calibrated. I consistently measure .90g, and have once measured .91g. The T1-S was consistent at .93g. My 205/55-16 Azenis Sports measured above .96g under the same conditions, just for reference. Both sets of Proxes tires were (and are) much better all-around tires than the Falkens. I've been very pleased with both sets of Toyos.

Disclaimer: All readings are taken in the same specific corner, always going in the same direction, driving the same line, etc. , and always late at night so that I can see that there are no headlights on the upcoming section of road before I "test".

anyone try the toyo ra-1 ? heard these tires where very good , closest that we can get to a r-compound tire , here in the u.s. that is . :D


Ummm, what the heck are you talking about??? The RA-1 IS an R compound tire...as well as the Yokohama A032R, A048R, Pirelli Corsa, Dunlop Super Sport Race, Avon Tech R, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Kumho V700, V700 Ecsta, V710 and Hoosier A3S04 and R3S04, and you can buy each and every one of them in the US.

Going back to the original question, the Proxes 4s are a very good all season, probably the only better all season is the Pirelli PZero Nero M & S.

I agree Templar.

My only think is that the Hoosier is a little more on the drag side on street tires or a really competition tire, for which there are.

I think if you want a tire strictly for dry grip, the S02 or the S03 is for you. These tires also work great in the wet. But for all season, the Pirelli you stated is fantastic.

Here where I live in the Caribbean, the S02 and S03 are use is tarmac practice events, over the Kumho, Michelin and Toyo's, due to grip and tread life.

So actually which one is better tires. The PZero Nero or Toyo Proxes 4???

Not sure since, but here is a thought.

Pirelli is normally use in Europe & Canada where an all season tire is a must.

Toyo is not quite well know, so in respect to research and so on that Pirelli spends million of dollars in, I personal think the Pirelli PZero Nero M & S is the better option

But on that note, do not give up on the MAX Performance tires. There are more than capable of out performing any all season tire, many times over.

Take for example, in Europe, the Pirelli Nero and the Bridgestone GR50 and S03 comes now standard on touring cars.

So which ever is in your cost range, get it. If you don't mind spending the extra, get a max performance tire.

If tread life doesn't bother you and do not get alot of water in your area, get either the Pirelli Corsa or the Toyo Proxes RA1. These as R Compound tires.

I drive on the RA1. Need to rotate them now.

Thanks but i prefer all-season since i don't do much racing and i am too lazy to change my tires every winter.

I think what really have people is the Toyo design. It looks good, hence great performance.

Also, there think of the T1-S. T

The T1-s is a MAX Perf tire while the Proxes 4 are Ultra/High performance All Sean tire.

Do some research and look around the world for comparisons.

I personally think that Toyo gets its good name from the RA1.

I both the Toyo Proxes F08 which was there high perf tire. Its crap. The Bridgestone GR50, a touring tire is 2x better than that.

Our roads are very slippery here in the Caribbean. So grip is a must in both dry and wet, and also, because of the lack of good asphalt, its very oily when sprinkle. You see the picture?

I know some guys that had T1-S that swear by them until there change to the Bridgestone Potenza GIII. There were amaze how much there were missing. And the thing is, the T1-S is a max perf. tire while the GIII is a Ultra performance tire is the import world, while in Japan, a high perf. tire

Even my RA1's are great, but the Bridgestone Potenza GIII is almost there with it. Have never driven on the S03, but it does leave one to wonder is perf, since the GIII is just a Ultra perf. tire.

What I am saying, again, just research the net and go w/ your budget, when your research is exhausted.

Patience is virtue :)

Thanks but i prefer all-season since i don't do much racing and i am too lazy to change my tires every winter.

I figure so. Go with the Pirelli then. But both seems to be almost quite match, with the Pirelli slight edging out the Toyo in some reviews. But again, the Pirelli is big in the new Europe for a while now, and in rallying.

Even better, encourage a friend to get the Toyo and you get the Pirelli or vice versa and then report back to the forum what you think. :)

But both seems to be almost quite match, with the Pirelli slight edging out the Toyo in some reviews. Can you point me to a review or test that includes both of these? That's what we've all been waiting for.....

They don't do comparative tire tests in the US anymore for fear of offending advertisers. Except Consumer Reports, which has the suck.

In any search 2stroke, you normally have to find reviews on tires for which someone just change from.

use google.com and search for reviews for each tire.

FOr example, which is not really not good,
http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews/Pirelli_P-Zero_Nero_M&S_tire_reviews.html
http://www.1010tires.com/tirereviews/Toyo_Proxes_4_tire_reviews.html

Thanks for the tip.

You are geat, west_minist!

Your butt dyno is well calibrated. I consistently measure .90g, and have once measured .91g. The T1-S was consistent at .93g. My 205/55-16 Azenis Sports measured above .96g under the same conditions

2Stroke: Just wondering - what suspension mods did you have on your car in addition to the tires to arrive at those lateral g figures? Thanks.

You are geat, west_minist!

:) :)

2Stroke: Just wondering - what suspension mods did you have on your car in addition to the tires to arrive at those lateral g figures? Thanks.Those numbers, .93g for the T1-S and .90g for the Proxes 4, are with stock suspension. Optimum tire pressures were determined by testing to find the values that give max lateral g-force. 4 pounds either way will result in numbers that are lower by around .02g. Low pressures will wear the outside edges bald very quickly doing this. I usally start at high pressure and drop a pound or two at a time until the sidewalls start to roll over.

Also, these are instantaneous readings, usually just past the apex of a uphill right hand ~170 degree corner at about 42 mph, although I believe they would be the same turning right on a skidpad, and might be higher turning left.

The Toyos were/are 215/45-17, pressures 40f / 38r. Darin Nishimura set at the front camber at -1.0 degree, and set the toe to zero front and rear. Wheels are 17 x 7 P1's, ET52.

Most magazine reviews of the WRX, with RE-92 tires, report .84-.86g on a skidpad. This is consistent with my perception of the improvement in grip over my RE-92s. I ditched the RE-92s before I got the GTech.

I just had a set of TOYO proxes 4 mounted.

I am coming from bald RE92's so the difference is instantly noticable. They are not harsh or noisy with normal driving. I have only done 1 spirited drive with these tires, but the difference was night and day. My old tires would chirp and skid really easily. The rear end would also get squirley really really easy and I have a stock 2004 RS with a really small rear sway bar. New tires make me feel planted and more in control. Freeway driving has been improved as well, the car feels planted at high speed and does not tramline like it used to.

I am very happy. I shopped around and played Express tire and Discount tire against each other, and got them for $421.00 out the door. I am eager to try them in the rain.

-Jeff

Please do remember that the RE92 is really close to oem or stock tires.

It should not be compared to tires better than it. Seriously.

It like comparing a corolla with BMW or Mercedes. its just to unfair.

The RE92 is just a basic high Perf. All Season tire. No really Techonology in them.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE92

On the other hand, the Toyo Proxes 4 is a Ultra Perf. All Season tire with technology, making it a better all season tire. So, really, there are not in the same category.

To really compare, the old tire from bridgestone you should compare the proxes to are the Potenza RE040 & Potenza RE750 or tires here http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHPAS.

or even better, the Pirelli PZero Nero M&S.

Either way, its nice to see that there are working good.

Good Luck

Please do remember that the RE92 is really close to oem or stock tires.

It should not be compared to tires better than it. Seriously.

It like comparing a corolla with BMW or Mercedes. its just to unfair.

The RE92 is just a basic high Perf. All Season tire. No really Techonology in them.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Bridgestone&tireModel=Potenza+RE92

On the other hand, the Toyo Proxes 4 is a Ultra Perf. All Season tire with technology, making it a better all season tire. So, really, there are not in the same category.

To really compare, the old tire from bridgestone you should compare the proxes to are the Potenza RE040 & Potenza RE750 or tires here http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=UHPAS.

or even better, the Pirelli PZero Nero M&S.

Either way, its nice to see that there are working good.

Good LuckMy car, like every other WRX in the US, was delivered new with RE-92 tires. We all know they suck. We all know they are not comparable to UHPF blah blah tires..

They are, however, a useful baseline, because that's what is on every one of our cars has at first, its what the magazines test with, and they are, in fact the OEM tires for the WRX in the US.

Thanks for all the insight on which catregory tires belong in, and for the advice about searching, and about not comparing tires that seem to be in different categories.

My tires are a T1-S casing with different rubber bonded to the case than the T1-S uses. Are you saying that because of this, I shouldn't compare the resulting tire to the T1-S?

I think what really happen is that the cars came stock for the dealers to change them, thats providing that the dealer didn't put them on themselves.

Thats why the new STI comes from the factory with the RE070.

Subaru wanted to standardise this, I hope.

Here in the Caribbean, the Subaru comes with simi good tires, actual simi sport, for which the dealers change them and put on Ultra or MAX perf. tires.

All that I am saying that to try not to put to much emphasis on the old.

I know alot of you will get angry here, but the WRX is not a car to be taken lightly; saying that, the RE92 should have been replace from day one. Its like whoever drive these wrx's, are like grannies.

I am not angry or anything so, but I would say driving on the RE92 teachs you how to handle the car @ its limits and drifting. If thats not your thing, there should have been change from day one.

2stroke :) :) Enough have been said here. Everyone have what there wanted and have learnt about other alternatives.

Nice chatting with everyone.

Good luck witht the tires, and do not forget to do a review on them for others to see in the review section.

Others would appreciate it.

Thanks

i got the proxes 4 last week. i am very pleased with them so far.

Run some test, both in dry and now the cold coming on, do a nice revieww of it in the review section. :)

stay away from Proxes FZ4... those tires are awful.

Lol :)

I had Proxes 4 on my VW; they were great all-around tires and responded pretty well.

-Erik

EDIT: Forgot to mention I'm in the Pacific Northwest (outside of Portland, OR) and we get quite a bit of rain 8 months out of the year, so having something that moves water quickly is a must.

....

well I will be getting the proxe 4's next week. I put an order in today at a local place. I got a sweethart of a deal on them, about $110 a tire. The fz4's would be cheaper but I haven't heard as many great things about them. I really wanted to give tirerack the buisness but would hate to take tires to a tire place and say "here, yours are too expensive, put these on, oh and be careful with those rims" I really wanted to pick up a pair of wheels but don't have the cash right now to drop $700. Plus that, I figure with the way I take care of my ride and without mudflaps, the wheels will be the last thing to chip. If they start peeling or something from the salt, its under warranty, right? I'm in PA and rest assured I'll be driving around as much as possible in the first snow falling and I'll be sure to give you all my opinions. I'm coming from a jeep wrangler with new treads last winter. I'll be comparing my experiences to that :D

Originally posted by 2Stroke:
Can you point me to a review or test that includes both of these? That's what we've all been waiting for.....

We could go on forever debating the merits of these two tires, but until publications like Grass Roots Motorsports or Sport Compact Car know there are
a lot of us out here who want to see a comparison test between the PZero and Proxes 4, I doubt we'll ever get one. Maybe someone should drop them an email . . .:)

Until then, my vote goes to the Proxes 4, mainly cause I own a set and all I ever think about is getting back out on the road with them. Not too many Mud & Snow tires you can say that about.:D

I've had the proxes 4 for about 4k now....i had them set at 39f 37r.....they were great compared to the stockers....excellent in the rain.....

the other day i upped the psi (why i didn't do it months earlier i have no idea) to 41f 39.5r and feels much much better....

very grippy...excellent in the rain...i dont feel the sidewall flex much at this psi... i think max psi is 50...i have to go check...i might up the psi again if i dont kill my struts on these nyc roads...

don't know much bout the pirellis though but these are definitely a great upgrade from the stockers....now to just find some snow...


anyone driven the proxes4 in snow yet?

anyone driven the proxes4 in snow yet?

I'm interested too.

I had a set of Michelin Pilot Sports and replaced them with the T1-S. I'll be switching back to the Pilot Sports. T1-S's just don't grip as well, louder and they tend to get caught in the grooves.

I have Proxes on my Audi. They're not bad in the snow, but they're not snow tires.

I agree Templar.

My only think is that the Hoosier is a little more on the drag side on street tires or a really competition tire, for which there are.

I think if you want a tire strictly for dry grip, the S02 or the S03 is for you. These tires also work great in the wet. But for all season, the Pirelli you stated is fantastic.

Here where I live in the Caribbean, the S02 and S03 are use is tarmac practice events, over the Kumho, Michelin and Toyo's, due to grip and tread life.
Nope, Hoosier makes argueably the best autocross tire on the market right now.

Note my words "My only think is that the Hoosier is a little more on the drag side on street tires or a really competition tire, for which there are."

But were are talking about a street tire. There can work, but a little too soft.]

Good bashment DChan.

Everyone love them because of Magazines. :)

I had a set of Michelin Pilot Sports and replaced them with the T1-S. I'll be switching back to the Pilot Sports. T1-S's just don't grip as well, louder and they tend to get caught in the grooves.I found that the T1-S was a better tire after the tread had worn down a good bit. The steering felt more precise, and absolute grip level seemed to improve once the tread depth was low enough to reduce the sqirmy feeling. Mine continued to improve throughout the time I owned them, until a bolt or something went thru one of them at a little over 17,000 miles.

On an STi, the sidewall will always be more flexible on a T1-S than the OEM tire, or the Pilot Sport. I think the T1-S is an excellent tire for the WRX, but the STi needs stiffer sidewalls to retain the solid feel of its steering and suspension. Just my $.02.

The T1-S felt better because of more contact patch as it wear.

It must be stated from your response, that the treads remain soft as it wears, unlike other tires.

The T1-S felt better because of more contact patch as it wear.

It must be stated from your response, that the treads remain soft as it wears, unlike other tires.Improvement in grip level is due to that, although the contact patch size doesn't change much until you hit the wear bars. But the tread blocks are wider at the base.

The difference in feel is due to the fact that the V-shaped tread blocks become less flexible as they become shorter.

Toyo has a new version of the Proxes T1 in development called the T1-R. It's presently on sale in the UK - those Brits make such good Guinea pigs! For those who don't recall, that's the same group of people used in the development of the WRX.

The center section is just like the T1-S. However, for the T1-R the outer shoulders have been changed. I believe the marketing material claims the new shoulder design improves steering response, while the arrowhead pattern of the T1-S in the middle maintains the excellent wet performance.

When, if ever, will Toyo bring that tire here? I have no clue. For now you can go to www.toyo.co.uk and drool over all the different Toyo models we can't get here.

The T1-R also has deeper tread on the shoulders for those of us that wear out that part first.http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

It took the Brits almost a decade to get the WRX ready for us. I'm not holding my breath. T1-S inventory will be worth a lot less as soon as the T1-R is announced. Initial reports from the UK and OZ are very good.

Well I just had the proxe 4's put on today. My first reaction is MUSHY!. Of course I'm comparing them to the stock re070's. Its about 45-50 degrees here today and dry. I bumped the front psi up to 45 and rear at 40. The difference in dry is unreal. I've never felt the car slide this much or get so squirrly since I've owned it. I have been riding them hard though and testing them. I'm not too concerned as these are my off-season tires. Rest assured I'll be out in the first snow to keep you posted.

I have Proxes on my Audi. They're not bad in the snow, but they're not snow tires.

i wonder if they still feel pretty decent compared to stockers on a wrx....

imaaaron: how many miles you have on em? they're gonna be a bit slippery since you just put em on....

lol, about 20. I was hoping pushing them a little harder might break them in sooner. I'll let know know if they get any better as well. That was only my initial response. I'm using the steering wheel much more than I'm used to so far.

a friend said the same thing before they broke in. I think they'll get better for you

imaaaron: Mine got a lot better over the first ~200 miles. Then they'll very slowly improve as the tread wears down. They will never feel as good as RE070's.

i wonder if they still feel pretty decent compared to stockers on a wrx.... They're a big improvement over RE-92's. Unlike the WRX, Subaru did not skimp on the OEM tires for the STi.

Well I just had the proxe 4's put on today. My first reaction is MUSHY!. Of course I'm comparing them to the stock re070's. Its about 45-50 degrees here today and dry. I bumped the front psi up to 45 and rear at 40. The difference in dry is unreal. I've never felt the car slide this much or get so squirrly since I've owned it. I have been riding them hard though and testing them. I'm not too concerned as these are my off-season tires. Rest assured I'll be out in the first snow to keep you posted.

You're pressure is WAAAY to high. That's why they are sliding so much. Look up the recommended pressure (on the inside of the door when you open it) and add about 2 more psi. I have 225/45 Toyo Proxes 4 and I run them at mid 30's I think. They are absolutley awsome on dry pavement and rain. Not sure about snow. Once you get used to them you will love them.

Well I just had the proxe 4's put on today. I have been riding them hard though and testing them. .


Don't push the Proxes 4 too hard. They won't hold up.

My brother has a set on his '99 Mustang, and they did not hold up well in three autocross runs. So much so that he ended up driving my car in the afternoon to keep from destroying the Toyos. For the rest of the summer we switched back to his crappy OEM Gatorbacks.

The tread on the Proxes 4 will peel and separate if you try to push them hard. So keep in mind it's an ALL SEASON TIRE, and cannot be compared to a T1-S or other summer performance tires IF you plan to do any autocross or track events.



G