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jcroy66
11-17-2004, 03:44 PM
http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/1005

It has been brought to the attention of SCCA Technical Services that the use of full-face or closed-face helmets while driving vehicles with active airbag restraint systems may result in injuries in the event of a crash that deploys the airbag. Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin. In a crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face helmet can be so powerful “that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be ruled out“ (Hubert Gramling, FIA Institute, FT3/AF, 8.5.1999). This applies to vehicle that may be used in Solo, RallyCross, High Performance Car Control Clinics, etc. Therefore, it is highly recommended that full-face helmets not be used in vehicles with functional airbag systems. Potentially more restrictive language is currently being considered for 2005, which could appear in an early 2005 issue of FasTrack. If you have any questions, please contact the SCCA at (800) 770-2055.

Boy that would suck. :mad:

I agree with the point on SCCAforums, why not ditch the whole steering wheel rule in ST* instead?? As Todd pointed out, I really don't want to imagine what would happen if my airbag deployed with our new seats.

crash
11-17-2004, 03:51 PM
how would one's face be more likely to be injured WITH OUT a full face helmet?

MattDell
11-17-2004, 03:57 PM
That's a bunch of bull hockey...

PKer
11-17-2004, 03:58 PM
I like my open face helmet, much cooler on those hot summer days.

KC
11-17-2004, 04:08 PM
Guess what... racing erm... driving briskly on a closed area is a RISK we all take.

Gee.. whodathunkit? What's not good is those solo-ers that also do HPDEs or Hillclimbs that REQURE SA rated helmets (majority of those available are Closed Faced). Now, I don't see that requirement going away.. but what I DO see is the price for Open Faced SA helmets just went up for all those that do dual purpose events.

And the with the new Snell 2005s coming out in Oct 2005, I would write in and request that the motion be delayed until the 2005 new standard new helmets are out so you don't HAVE TO buy a 2000 rated helmet... and have a shorter life span.

Wouldn't it be comical if Snell SA 2005 does away with Open faced helmets? :lol: (Not)

Or at least write in a valid way to disable the airbag or remove them and replace with a non-airbag steering wheel.

zzyzx
11-17-2004, 04:10 PM
This is at least one example of why the STAC should not delude itself into thinking it's committee members input constitutes a valid opinion akin to the NTSB. The STAC is putting the SCCA in the indefensible positon of taking a stance on the safety of vehicles with modified safety systems.

It'll be interesting to see where this issues goes...

zzyzx
11-17-2004, 04:13 PM
Guess what... racing erm... driving briskly on a closed area is a RISK we all take.


True, but see my note above. The STAC is telling SCCA members who compete in ST* classes that certain modified safety systems are "more legal" than others. That's just crap, if you don't mind my saying so.

stiski
11-17-2004, 05:04 PM
From a couple of searches that I did on Hubert Gramling, he has done a lot of research on airbags and the Hans system. There is probably quite a bit of research to back up his recomendation.

More fodder for the scca to allow the folks that want to take out their airbags.

trojan9x
11-17-2004, 05:09 PM
I never really saw a point in needing a full face helmet in a car? I already have an open face and the only time I will get a full face is when I get a bike. :)

KC
11-17-2004, 05:49 PM
I never really saw a point in needing a full face helmet in a car? I already have an open face and the only time I will get a full face is when I get a bike. :)
Most HPDEs and Road Racing require an SA approved helmet. Closed face SA helmets are 1) cheaper than Open Face SA helmets... and 2) there's a greater selection to choose from.

--kC

DILLIGAF Racing
11-17-2004, 05:52 PM
I never really saw a point in needing a full face helmet in a car? I already have an open face and the only time I will get a full face is when I get a bike. :)
I personally like my closed face helmet. When I looked at open face ones, they just weren't comfy. On a somewhat related note, how long is a SNELL rating good for? I have a SNELL 95 (I believe), so is this the last year is "legal"? I want a better one anyways.

RankFrank
11-17-2004, 05:57 PM
http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/1005



Boy that would suck. :mad:

I agree with the point on SCCAforums, why not ditch the whole steering wheel rule in ST* instead?? As Todd pointed out, I really don't want to imagine what would happen if my airbag deployed with our new seats.

So, are you allowed to disable the airbags? That would render the whole situation moot.

DILLIGAF Racing
11-17-2004, 06:01 PM
SCCA is just reccomending that you don't use a closed face, its not a rule yet.

baileypicks24
11-17-2004, 06:08 PM
SCCA is just reccomending that you don't use a closed face, its not a rule yet.

keyword: yet ??

"Potentially more restrictive language is currently being considered for 2005"

I needed to buy a helmet anyways before the next season. I suppose Ill just buy an open-faced helmet just to be safe?

driggity
11-17-2004, 06:23 PM
Closed face SA helmets are 1) cheaper than Open Face SA helmets...

--kC

What Helmets are you looking at? Pyrotect, G-Force, Bell, and Arai all have open face SA helmets that are cheaper than all or most of their closed face SA offerings.

abaxter34
11-17-2004, 06:31 PM
what about if you use a harness? if your strapped in with a harness you shouldnt even be able come in contact with the airbag if it were to be deployed.

Kha0S
11-17-2004, 06:33 PM
What Helmets are you looking at? Pyrotect, G-Force, Bell, and Arai all have open face SA helmets that are cheaper than all or most of their closed face SA offerings.

Agreed. When comparing apples to apples (in terms of materials and construction), the open-faced SA2000 helmets have always been universally less expensive than their closed-face counterparts.

/Andrew

Apex Rex
11-17-2004, 08:05 PM
I personally prefer the feel of a closed face helmet compared to an open-face one. I hope they do not make it a rule that you NEED to use an open faced helmet for solo competition.

Im going to be looking into getting an SA helmet next year, so I'll just wait until the new safety rating comes out to make my purchase. Hopefully I'll still be able to get a closed face helmet.

DrBiggly
11-17-2004, 09:08 PM
Oh damn hell I just bought a helmet barely 12 months ago and guess what? It's not open face. :(

-Biggly hits a lot of cones, but not hard enough to invoke airbag deployment

kwh29
11-17-2004, 09:28 PM
Well whatever the SCCA ends up doing it has to work for stock as well as ST. This whole thread is ignoring what Stock class people would have to do.

I don't think that the SAC would _ever_ go for airbag removal, or even disablement. Hopefully this would convince the STAC to stop trying to force soloists to follow NHTSA rules that may not even apply to the cars in question. (ie Canadian!) Who knows what the road race rules are... I sure don't! :p

--Kevin H.

WMH
11-17-2004, 10:34 PM
Oh damn hell I just bought a helmet barely 12 months ago and guess what? It's not open face. :(

-Biggly hits a lot of cones, but not hard enough to invoke airbag deployment

That's why I'm happy I bought a full face helmet 2 years ago. :banana:

afpdl
11-17-2004, 10:42 PM
statement of
MOTOR RACING IS EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS. DEATH OR INJURY WILL OCCUR.
Straight from their front page.

jcroy66
11-18-2004, 07:45 AM
I just re-read one of the sentences in the advisory:

Because of the location of the steering wheel relative to a
driver’s position, the airbag axis is on a level with the driver’s chin.

That seems awfully presumptous... The SCCA presumes to know the location of the steering wheel relative to my position? I mentioned in the original post that I wouldn't want to imagine what would happen if my airbag deployed with the new race seats. That's not because the "airbag axis is on a level with the driver's chin". It's because the airbag is level with my FACE. Which, please note, would still be protected by an open-faced helmet. And ya know, that's one of the key points there. PROTECTED. A helmet is DESIGNED to take an impact. My chin and face are not.

But hey, if the SCCA feels that having my chin protected by a helmet somehow makes it more dangerous, then maybe they'll next determine that with race seats, I should wear no helmet at all. :rolleyes:

KC
11-18-2004, 08:26 AM
From someone on my local Solo list.. it's filled with some good info.

Hubert Gramling is an engineer specializing in crash protection and safety, working on behalf of the FIA Institute. The FIA Institute for Motor Sport Safety is a rather new group formed by the FIA. Below is an excerpt from the press release announcing the FIA Institute:
"The objective of the FIA Institute is to promote improvements in motor sport safety by promoting research, publishing the results of this research and providing information on the best safety procedures, practices and technologies that can be applied to motor sport safety in numerous different areas: driver equipment, vehicle design, circuit design and spectator protection, rescue and medical facilities, race control."

The FIA institute is a non-profit organization, much like SFI or the Snell Institute.

Dr. Gramling gave quite an interesting presentation at the SCCA annual convention in Kansas City last winter. Be assured that he has forgotten more about helmets and airbags than any of us will ever know. This research is not coming from SCCA but is likely the result of a newly strengthened relationship between SCCA and safety foundations such as the FIA Foundation and SFI. Dr. Gramling IS NOT making this stuff up; research has demonstrated that intuition has little relationship to the physics involved in a crash.

I would certainly like to see the source information which lead to this advisory- and I do not look forward to the prospect of buying a new helmet this spring- but I really fail to understand the conspiracy theories that seem to be swirling about this issue.


About the cost of open faced helmets that I said earlier... I coudl have sworn when I was looking at them last year I coudn't find one that was any where near less expensive than middle of the road Closed Face helmets. Oopsie.

afpdl
11-18-2004, 05:37 PM
And ya know, that's one of the key points there. PROTECTED. A helmet is DESIGNED to take an impact. My chin and face are not.

I think the issue is arrising more from distribution of the force of the air bag. With a helmet on all the force will be transmited to your jaw and forhead. Since all of the force is being transmitted to 2 small locations that is probably whats leading to the broken jaws and is what they are concerned about.

Without a helmet on your full face is accepting the blow so its much more evenly distributed and less likely to break your jaw. Personally I would rather take my chances especially since my face will not get anywhere near the airbag in a wreck at a solo event, but I can see their point. If they make this a rule stay tuned to see glasses being outlawed too. If were lucky we will have mandatory mouth pieces as well.

DrBiggly
11-18-2004, 05:58 PM
At least private clubs have the option of being able to just say "Hey, even though we follow the SCCA on rules, this isn't one of them" and not have to worry. :(

jcroy66
11-19-2004, 11:17 AM
FYI, it appears that the SEB will be considering the matter vis-a-vis the "more restrictive wording". I encourage anyone who is concerned with the matter to send in your letters. seb@scca.com.

del105
11-19-2004, 01:03 PM
can't you just pull the airbag fuse and be done with it?

jcroy66
11-19-2004, 02:22 PM
Not in stock or ST* (AFAIK).

zzyzx
11-19-2004, 02:26 PM
Not in stock or ST* (AFAIK).

ST* has allowed pulling the fuse to disable ABS.

BIGSKYWRX
11-19-2004, 04:15 PM
FYI, it appears that the SEB will be considering the matter vis-a-vis the "more restrictive wording". I encourage anyone who is concerned with the matter to send in your letters. seb@scca.com.

Please - if you've taken the time to post, take the time to write a short note to the SEB on this matter.

I don't want to be buying two helmets for one head :rolleyes:

Big Sky

Thug
11-19-2004, 07:37 PM
From a Porsche list via my local hillclimb list.



In addition to what you mentioned they also are looking at this
information: NOTE THIS IS NOT SCCA INFORMATION NOR SCCA DIRECTIVE, BUT INFO FROM FORD.

Something from Ford that SCCA might find interesting.

EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY, PLEASE CEASE USE OF FULL FACED HELMETS IN VEHICLES WITH LIVE STEERING WHEEL AIRBAGS.

It was brought up at the recent International Committee for Proving Ground Safety that several companies do not allow use of full face helmets in vehicles with (driver-side) airbags, due to the risk of severe neck injury for the airbag impacting the bottom of the full-faced helmet. Full-faced helmets are, of course, allowed in vehicles without airbags or in vehicles with de-activated airbags.

BIGSKYWRX
11-19-2004, 08:30 PM
Response from Doug Gill
"I'm not the SEB, but I can reply to your concerns. If you would like for me to send this to the SEB, I'll be glad to do so.

There is not a proposal to ban any type of helmet. The concern of Tech Services of the National Office (not the SEB) is just what was stated in the advisory - there is a possibility of a jaw fracture while wearing a full-face helmet during a crash with airbag deployment.

It was decided to let SCCA members know the concerns of the National Office and decide for themselves. There is a lot more to consider about this matter.

Hope this helps."

Big Sky

robmarch
11-19-2004, 08:35 PM
I heard they're banning the use of seat belts too, since there's a risk of a nasty rub on your neck.

:P

silly stuff here.

NeoteriX
11-20-2004, 04:43 AM
Hmm... I can't say I'm pleased. I went and bought a full face helmet for the express reason that people said it was safer -- that autocrossers have been known to sometimes crash and it's a lot nicer to have a chinbar when the airbag goes off in your face.

Not only that, but I have the cheesy "bastard child" hybrid helmet which apparently is good for nothing now. The helmet has no visor so I can't go karting or anything in it, and it's got a chinbar which apparently is going to break my jaw. Damnit!

By the way -- how does the chinbar break your jaw? It seems that when I have the helmet on, the bar is a good inch, inch and a half away from my mouth, and my head is pretty tightly fit into there. Also, why is this not an issue with motorcycling? I mean, like hitting the pavement with your chin is probably a lot worse than having an airbag explode in your face.

zoomfactor
11-20-2004, 11:15 AM
Not only that, but I have the cheesy "bastard child" hybrid helmet which apparently is good for nothing now.

Ditto

By the way -- how does the chinbar break your jaw? It seems that when I have the helmet on, the bar is a good inch, inch and a half away from my mouth, and my head is pretty tightly fit into there.

Well the helmet is held on by a strap that goes under the chin. My guess might be that the helmet gets punted at the chin applying force to that pesky strap :confused: I probably need to re-read the stuff I thought there is also increased risk of neck injury also :confused:

fastwrx
11-20-2004, 01:26 PM
Speaking as a dentist who is familiar with facial injuries and jaw fractures, I have to disagree 100% with this "recommendation." First, I do not believe a full face helmet would increase the chance of injury. If that is their claim, I would like more information on actual cases... The circumstances, the SPECIFIC injuries sustained - exactly where did the jaw fracture? If it has ever actually happened. Or is this speculation? It just doesn't make sense to me.

I drive my STi in HPDEs, and I wear a full face helmet... with the visor closed. And that's in the south Florida heat. Why? I value my face! That's why! I value all of my face including my EYES. I need my eyes to make a living. Eyes could be injured, in my estimation, by flying debris inside a car (when it crashes) such as glass, stones (from the track), and other objects. Furthermore, there ARE documented cases of SEVERE eye injury from airbag deployment in street crashes.

I'm not buying the broken jaw theory. Is it possible to get the "data" on which they have based this decision???

Hell... I even wear a full fire suit for HPDEs. I value my skin. Even though the chance of being in a fire is remote, I'll gladly pay a few hundred dollars and suffer a little sweating to save my SKIN. I need it!

Call me "Mr. Safety!" ;)

Mike

D. Romanucci
11-21-2004, 01:03 AM
That Ford memo said "neck injury," not Jaw injury. Soft tissue neck damage (whiplash, etc.) is painful, i.e. you may miss work for a while and be in pain for even longer.

It is a balancing act as usual. Such as if you crash your car at a track day, your insurance may not cover the damage. You do it anyway though.

fastwrx
11-21-2004, 12:43 PM
Yes... there's the possibility of neck injury, of course. That can be mitigated with a neck brace or a Hans device. You can also suffer a neck injury without a helmet. When it comes to safety gear, you're playing the odds. There is nothing 100% effective at preventing injuries. But, to suggest open face helmets RATHER than devices like neck braces or Hans devices is ludicrous, IMO.

Wasn't Dale Earnhardt controversial also because he chose to wear an open face helmet rather than closed?

It is a balancing act. Personally, I'd refuse to participate in an event that mandated I wear an open face helmet.

Mike

CirrusWRX
12-09-2004, 02:45 PM
Has there been any more info revealed on this subject? My father is a Porsche club member and said he thinks they're looking to ban closed-face helmets for PCA HDPE's in vehicles with airbags in the steering wheel.

Just curious if there have been any updates since this was last brought about. As was already mentioned, we're dealing with odds here, and I can only surmise that if I'm involved in an impact that is hard enough to make my airbag go off in an HPDE, I can bet you I'll be glad I'll have my full-face helmet on, visor closed, and starting next year, wearing my neck brace, rather than being told I have to have an open faced helmet.

bump

DrBiggly
12-09-2004, 03:42 PM
I heard that the SCCA dropped it from their agenda altogether given the feedback on the issue. Also, the study that they apparently based this idea off of was a specific study to investigate the possibility of airbags being used in F1 cars. Why the SCCA would have picked this up and tried to apply it to Solo2 is beyond me. :confused:

(I didn't do this research however a good friend did and mentioned it to me. I have no links but would be interested to see some.) :)

kwh29
12-09-2004, 05:51 PM
I'm the mentioner ^^^

There's a thread on SCCAforums.com where someone paraphrased the F1 study that the SCCA apparently misinterpreted. I'm at work and can't look it up at the moment.

--Kevin H.

AlpineFD
12-09-2004, 10:06 PM
Is the scca rule suppose to prevent jaw fracture injury or back of the neck injury? For neck injury, we could just wear neck collars.

KeithRS
12-09-2004, 10:10 PM
Guess what... racing erm... driving briskly on a closed area is a RISK we all take.


The risks of slamming headfirst into a parking cone, and even worse, getting really, really sunburnt, are part of what makes solo "timed driving event" competitors into legends.

I doubt the SCCA could really require changes without better studies...

DrBiggly
12-10-2004, 01:10 AM
Is the scca rule suppose to prevent jaw fracture injury or back of the neck injury? For neck injury, we could just wear neck collars.
In a way it's almost kind of funny if you think about it. "We want you to wear a helmet without protection for your face or jaw so that you can't hurt your jaw" :lol:

fastwrx
12-10-2004, 09:40 AM
As I said... show me ONE documented study that supports this ridiculous notion.

Incidentally, the mandible is the HARDEST bone in your body. It's actually pretty hard to fracture it. If you sustained an impact that resulted in a jaw fracture WITH a helmet on, the jaw fracture will be the LEAST of your problems. There's a very good chance your "brain bone" will no longer be connected to your "spine bone." :( You won't care too much about a broken jaw.

Mike (the dentist)

DrBiggly
12-10-2004, 12:58 PM
According the investigations of the Earnhardt crash where he had basal skull fracture, investigators say that chin protection would provide a different pattern of injuries to decrease risk of skull fractures. Skull fractures are much more likely with the 3/4 helmet.

So yeah, how is an open-faced helmet a good idea again? Had they actually put some thought into this before spreading it around, the SCCA wouldn't be rescinding this right now. :lol: :)

WRX-ECE
12-10-2004, 03:01 PM
Maybe I'm looney (or it's b/c I wear an open helmet) but I can see how a full-face helmet has the POTENTIAL to cause both jaw and neck injuries when struck by the airbag.

First, you have to remember that airbags are DESIGNED to impact an unprotected human face. There have been cases of people being injured by airbags, sure, but far less then the number that have been saved. If you want DATA then provide DATA, don't say people got hurt w/o giving any stats like % injured etc.

Second, Assuming you are sitting in a relatively normal position with a full-face helmet the chin bar is often 3-4 inches further forward, generally more pointed then your chin/face (except those with witch chins, you know who you are) and farther forward then the rest of the helmet.

Third, We must assure that the helmet is worn properly with the strap tight and the helmet fits close to right.

Now how do I interpret this? Well, since the airbag has a constant force then its impact will be focused on the chin bar of the helmet, not spread over the entire face. IF the impact comes perpendicular to the drivers face (rare except in low low racing seats) then the airbag will impact the chin bar with much of the force (because of the extension of the chin bar farther then the rest of the helmet). I can see this doing two things, driving the a good portion of the force of impact directly into the jaw or rotating the helmet around an axis formed by the strap. I can percieve both neck and jaw injuries happening from this. But if the airbag strikes at a more upward angle the jutting of the chin bar is even more pronounced and the force is focused even more. This will attempt to drive the helmet up and back, forcing the strap up and putting extreme stress on the jaw joint. It will also cause the skull to rise up and back putting stress on the neck and spine. Remember that at this instant your body is still trying to move forward too so all this is amplified even more.

Sorry if this is so long. As posted above though, what seems logical isn't always right. We take it for granted now that crumple zones are the way to protect people, but decades of car design focused around the rolling tank concept of safety which we know now to be wrong. Buildings are now made to sway in the wind and shake benieth our feet. Bridges are made to crack in an earthquake.

Jeremy

fastwrx
12-10-2004, 04:32 PM
I'll put it very simply. I am VERY familiar with head & neck anatomy. I understand how airbags work. I've been educated on head trauma. There is NO WAY I'd wear an open faced helmet. PERIOD.

Perceptions mean nothing. Show me ONE study that supports the notion that full-face helmets cause more harm than good when worn in a car with airbags. Just ONE!

Mike

CirrusWRX
12-10-2004, 05:01 PM
I'll put it very simply. I am VERY familiar with head & neck anatomy. I understand how airbags work. I've been educated on head trauma. There is NO WAY I'd wear an open faced helmet. PERIOD.

Perceptions mean nothing. Show me ONE study that supports the notion that full-face helmets cause more harm than good when worn in a car with airbags. Just ONE!

Mike
I'm not familiar, but I still can't even fathom an example where a full-face helmet is more dangerous than an open face when contacting an airbag. Taking the following into account, of course:

1. The helmet is fitted and sized PROPERLY to the individual.

2. The helmet is a quality piece of safety gear that is approved for auto racing applications, that meets the various governing safety standards of the most common sanctioning bodies

3. The individual wears the helmet PROPERLY

4. The individual is in a proper seating position based on his/her height, weight, reach, etc.

In other words, some jackass with the face shield up, chinstrap tied like he's trying to suffocate himself, wearing a helmet that is 3 sizes too big sitting 4" from the steering wheel? Yeah - okay, I can see how an airbag can seriously f this guy up!

But the thought of a helmet making an airbag impact WORSE?! :eek: In that case, I don't even want to know what would happen if that thing hit my BARE FACE! I agree - airbags are designed to impact your bare face, so how can a helmet coming between your face and an airbag be any worse? Additionally, I think many people agree now that neck braces are a fantastic piece of safety item to wear, and are relatively cheap and offer SO many benefts. So throw in a neck brace and you've basically eliminated just about any of the "break your jaw" theories being tossed around on here.

And as was mentioned before, if you're in an impact serious enough to make an airbag go off, you're already in a damned serious crash! Which I would argue occur less frequently than "minor" crashes. What about all those times when debris comes flying into the car? What about the pieces of tire, a cracked or shattered windshield, rain, bugs, etc. flying into your eyes or mouth? What about banging your cheek/lips/nose/chin against a rollbar? What about a crash not quite severe enough to make the airbag go off, but severe enough for you to smack your face on the steering wheel?

I'll gladly "play the risks" of wearing a full-faced helmet long before I reap the "benefits" of an open faced. But, food for thought, most WRC drivers+codrivers where open-faced... Of course, they don't have airbags either...

afpdl
12-10-2004, 05:10 PM
But the thought of a helmet making an airbag impact WORSE?! :eek: In that case, I don't even want to know what would happen if that thing hit my BARE FACE! I agree - airbags are designed to impact your bare face, so how can a helmet coming between your face and an airbag be any worse?
Easily, a air bag hits your face, your entire face absorbs the force. If you have a closed face helmet on the only thing that can absorb the force is the forward portions of your face that is in contact with the helmet. Since you are absorbing the same force with less surface area you get more pressure.

CirrusWRX
12-10-2004, 05:27 PM
Easily, a air bag hits your face, your entire face absorbs the force. If you have a closed face helmet on the only thing that can absorb the force is the forward portions of your face that is in contact with the helmet. Since you are absorbing the same force with less surface area you get more pressure.
But on a good helmet, the surface area includes all of your cheek area, the sides, your forehead, the top of your head, etc. Also, it is typically padded very well to absorb impacts and spread that impact over the entire coverage area of the helmet. So while I will agree with you that there is less surface area in direct contact, but when the force is applied, it will get directed AROUND the face, and also, the portions which ARE in direct contact, the absorption will be taken by the helmet shell, the inner foam, and then the interior padding itself - 3 more items to slow down your face before hitting the airbag. Again, as was stated, there don't appear to be any published studies on this topic, so until there is one or somebody can find a link/scan one, we're all just speculating.

DrBiggly
12-10-2004, 05:40 PM
For those who think the open-faced helmet is a good idea:

Go for a motorcycle ride. Get up to speed. Faceplant. Then use the other helmet option. Tell me which is worse. :p

I saw research on faceplanting scenarios from motorcycles and different kinds of helmets earlier today. No open for me.

DrBiggly
12-10-2004, 05:45 PM
WRC cars:

In lieu of airbags they have specifically built shells with integrated roll cages, specific seats, 5 or 6pt. harnesses, and most likely head restraint systems with the helmet.

I'll take what they have instead of a full-faced, but until then... :)

Ramsdale
12-10-2004, 06:08 PM
Full face vs. open face in motorcycle riding has also been debated quite extensively. Generally the topic is around fields of vision, chin impacts, or the helmet catching the road and then breaking your neck with the strap or something.

However, an airbag contacting the helmet is not the same as the helmet (or chin) impacting the road. Airbags are pliable, whereas the road is not. Airbags are also designed for protecting an unhelmeted person, and I can see the concept that's being brought up.

Still, I would like to think that an airbag will wrap around my helmet about the same as it would my face, and therefore the impact forces are similar. This presumes I'm being forced into the airbag, and it's not just going off while I'm sitting there.

Hmm. I suppose it's time to toss the helmet on, bash my face into a firm pillow, and see what happens.

KR

RebelINS
12-10-2004, 06:16 PM
But, food for thought, most WRC drivers+codrivers where open-faced... Of course, they don't have airbags either...

WRC drivers wear open face helmets so they can communicate better with their co-drivers if their intercoms go out. I do remember though, back in '00 or '01 Colin had a real bad crash, and since he was wearing an open faced helmet he broke his jaw/ messed up that area of his face. He wore a closed face helmet at the next race.

-Wes

fastwrx
12-10-2004, 09:28 PM
OK... another analogy... I'm Mike Tyson. I'm gonna punch you square in the jaw whether you're wearing a helmet or not. Your choice. Which is it gonna be?

Mike

DrBiggly
12-11-2004, 12:14 AM
OK... another analogy... I'm Mike Tyson. I'm gonna punch you square in the jaw whether you're wearing a helmet or not. Your choice. Which is it gonna be?

Mike
BAHAHAHAHAHA

Dude, I'm totally going with the full-faced as it would be harder for you to get to my ear that way. :lol:

AlpineFD
12-11-2004, 04:35 AM
But if the airbag strikes at a more upward angle the jutting of the chin bar is even more pronounced and the force is focused even more. This will attempt to drive the helmet up and back, forcing the strap up and putting extreme stress on the jaw joint.

I think this is interesting, what do you guys have to say about this aspect of closed helmet danger?

TheWRX
12-11-2004, 11:05 AM
I think this is interesting, what do you guys have to say about this aspect of closed helmet danger?
It sounds like a possibility. If the SCCA learns of a potential risk, I think it's a good thing to communicate this to the members. The part I'm having a problem with is "more restrictive language is currently being considered for 2005". This sounds to me like a rule change is being discussed. I have seen absolutely no data to support that. I would want to see data/tests showing that somebody wearing a full face helmet is at higher risk of suffering severe injuries (and I mean any kind of severe injuries) in a crash. Those studies would have to be done with typical passenger cars.

If you analyzed the risks at an auto-x events, I think you might find that the course workers should be wearing a helmet and body armour. I wouldn't be surprised if they were at much higher risk than the drivers.

EHK
12-11-2004, 01:01 PM
Lets send this to Mythbusters and have them crash up a bunch of WRX's!