This is so painful. I just don't know what to say. I've enjoyed this thread immensely over the past year and I think we all learned at each phase. Maybe that's a silver lining. I hope it all gets cleared up soon.

gpat, pm me if i can be of any help.

Yeah, learning experiences may be painful, but worth it. :)

MY00 2.5RS
Short block #3
Pass head #2
Pass exhaust valve set #3
Head gasket set #5
Trans gearset #3
3 replaced axles
2 replaced hubs/wheel bearings
Still on ECU #1, but I'm on engine wiring harness #2
etc, etc, etc

/me has an extensive library of "trophies" ;)

Thanks all. Terry, you've already helped immensely. I'll shoot you a note though because I'm pretty certain I'm gonna need some advice here in the next couple of weeks.

It doesn't hurt as much as it did yesterday....but I haven't got the bill yet.:D

I'm pretty much decided that once I get it back up and running (knock on wood. My mech told me that the drivers' side tested out alright on leakdown. Still waiting on pass. side) I'm gonna let things die down a bit then fix my reverse myself.;)

I'm in Wisconsin for the rest of the week so I can't do anything except get SITREPs from Sam the mechanic over the telephone.

anything i can do to help...

[sigh of relief]

Turns out the valves are all healthy.

I'm headed to CT for the week to attend a funeral, and my mechanic told me that I could leave my car there while I'm gone and he'd put it in the bay at night. Attitude's Karma is rubbing off on me.:D

SWEET!

good to hear!! :)

Ok, so now I'm lost.

I'm still in CT and car is still at the dealership in Indiana, but I got a call from them saying that everything checked out, they'd put it all back together, started it and let it get warm and then shut it down.

When he restarted it shortly thereafter, the timing belt jumped a tooth or two.

I'm speaking through the service manager and not the mechanic, so I'm not able to ask any pointed questions. However, the main question as to 'why would it do that?' got me [indirectly] the response that maybe a cam cap was on ?backwards? or that a coolant hose had popped off [apparently] and maybe caused it to overheat.

Just keeps getting better and better. Due to all of this, I'm missing out on a tuning visit/vacation by Tim Bailey from PDX.:(

Not enough tension? I dunno that is kinda weird.

Now he's telling me, through the service manager, that he's going to have to pull the motor to further investigate.

I would check the timing belt tension first off, then from there I would check to make sure everything lines up ok in the pulley area, and finally check to make sure none of the pullies are seized causing more drag on the belt.

I should've stopped by Schaumburg on my way back from the Dells.

Aside from the tensioner that little gold-colored 'guide' above the crank pulley...or of course if a cam gear or belt pulley has seized up, I can't for the life of me, imagine anything else that would cause the belt to skip teeth so soon following replacement.

Thanks, though. Your post puts things into perspective. What dealership do you work at again? You're the service dept. manager, right?

Nope, you're thinking of hondaslayer working at Hodges in Detroit. I just like to blow stuff up and put it back together. :)

I've seen belts skip, but certainly not in the circumstances that you described. Maybe you're just making THAT much power that you skip belts. ;)

Just keeps getting better and better.
I'd be glad my engine checked out...

I'd be glad my engine checked out...
I am, or was, but my gut is telling me that this slipping belt is an indicator of something deeper. Or maybe it was just a fluke.

Either way, they are on hold, waiting for the word from me to have them pull the engine. On the one hand, it would be a shame if I were to pay another 5-6 hrs of labor only to be told that it's a cam cap or something unrelated to the block.

Aside from the tensioner that little gold-colored 'guide' above the crank pulley...or of course if a cam gear or belt pulley has seized up, I can't for the life of me, imagine anything else that would cause the belt to skip teeth so soon following replacement.

Only other things I can think of would be alignment of the cam gears being out a bit, so they are not running true, either lateral or radial runout.

Boy youv'e got some interesting things going on there.

Hmm let see (typing out loud) ---

It could be a belt that is bad, ie has a stiff spot in the belt so it starts whipping, or a couple boogered up spots on the belt surface that let it jump a tooth.

Are you turning the engine to really high rpms ( I doubt it from what you've said so far)
The old blower drive systems used a toothed Gilmer belt like the cam drive belts and at really high rpm they could trap air under the belt and it wouldn't let the teeth drop down into the drive pully teeth. I can't imagine anything running around loose in side the cam cover but a little piece of rubber (cured gasket goop etc) or something getting thrown up and caught under the belt could be the cause.

---- are you running really stiff dual valve springs?

If you had a broken valve spring or binding valve gear on one cylinder there might be a harmonic rpm where the cam starts oscillating every time it hits the cylinder with a soft valve spring or tight valve motion. (really unlikely but gee all the obvious stuff seems to have been checked.)

Same goes for a cam that has a wiped cam lobe. Like you said, if the tensioner was hosed up, you might get a situation that caused the timing belt to whip and jump a tooth.

Are you running OEM cam drive belts or the high performance kevlar belts?

In your situation if you have to go in there again, I think I'd swap out the cam belts just on principal at this point, and double check that the cam drive pulleys are not only in time but are running true. (make sure the cams are not able to move foreward and backward -- ie front to back along their axis and that the cam tensioner is not sticking or has a bad bearing so it occasionally siezes up)

Pretty much at a loss beyond those thoughts.

Larry

It's a brand new oem USDM STi timing belt, but my V belt is old (19k miles).

I also reused my tensioner, both for my initial swap and the rebuild. I torqued the hydrolic rod down according to FSM: • Be sure to slowly move the adjuster rod down applying
a pressure of 294 N (30 kgf, 66 lb).
• Press-in the push adjuster rod gradually taking
more than 3 minutes.
• Do not allow press pressure to exceed 9,807 N
(1,000 kgf, 2,205 lb).

Also the issue of the cam cap bolt torque error that Jeff brought up earlier. I spoke with the mechanic and he hadn't come across this particular error, but he generally stated that the FSM is off quite a bit.:eek::D

I'm wondering to myself if the timing belt guides above the crank gear and over each cam gear were correctly put back on by the mech. I'm wondering if I have all of the idlers on correctly. Wondering, first, if the tensioner is worn out, and second, if it was put back on correctly.

I think I'm going to ask him to order me another tensioner tomorrow.:)

I was just about to mention the belt guides as something to check, but I see you thought of that.

I'm still pretty stunned everything checked out okay after obliterating a camshaft sprocket. Wild.

i love how the fsm states to use 66lbs of pressure.

then states not to exceed 2205lbs of pressure.

that's quite a range to shoot for! :lol: the high limit is 33x the low!

frankly with all the issues i've seen on various cars over the years i will NOT be reusing my tensioner. they're just too touchy, and the repercussions are so dire.

I'm still pretty stunned everything checked out okay after obliterating a camshaft sprocket. Wild.
Yeah, I ran across this last night.:confused: :(
I have replaced a lot of timing belts on interference engines, and only once did I, or I should say the vehicles owner, got lucky and not bend any valves. But 999 times out of 1,000, the valves will bend.

From: About.com (http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl989h.htm)

Ken, I've already called and asked him to replace my tensioner. Hopefully better late than never.

so, why did it shatter????

From: About.com (http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl989h.htm)Strange, that page is wrong. You can test for damage without opening the engine by doing a leakdown test.

I'm not surprised. I am very critical about anything I hear or read anymore.

Could I have put the cams back in wrong? Meaning, could I have swapped around the L-In, R-in or L-out, R-out? Obviously, my memory is telling me, "nah!", but knowing me I don't want to assume anything. Would it still run? Maybe this would go towards explaining why I was seeing such weird, inconsistent misfire.

At this point, my humility is gone and I am guessing that I most likely did something really hare-brained.

Also, the mechanic said something about when he was trying to line up the cam gears in order to put the belt back on, the intake cams, or at least the drivers' side, "felt weird". Like he had to use a strap wrench to keep it from moving as it was pushing the valve down.

Well, I had to do the same thing for what it's worth.

Sounds like a couple possibilities -- one possibility is you mixed up the cams somehow, not sure that is even possible as I have not replace cams on this engine yet.

Depending on how the cams are set up I don't know if its possible to install an exhaust cam in the intake side or even swap them side to side, and if it would even make a difference.

You probably need to talk to someone like Crawford or Axis power racing that have seen hundreds of these engines over the years, they have probably seen just about every screw up possible at one time or another as they help customers troubleshoot engines.

So yes, it would probably a good thing to veryify that valve/cam timing is right at this point.

It is even possible you got sent the wrong cams if you have installed after market cams. I've heard of other people with other engines getting a cam other than what they ordered. Sometimes shipping screws up orders and things from one order get mixed with another order.

Larry

It's not possible to fit the intake camshaft in the position for the exhaust camshaft.

The pics are not definitive but they're all I have.

This is before I'd cleaned them up and put them on the block:
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Engine/heads_header/Heads_22OCT/heads.3.sm.jpghttp://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/heads_header/Heads_22OCT/heads.3.sm.jpg
This is just before the valve covers went back on:
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Engine/heads_header/rt.head.jpghttp://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/heads_header/rt.head.jpg

I bought them off of a member on here who bought them off of one of the reputable nasioc vendors...who seems to remember them. According to the vendor, the heads are completely oem to the v7 non-RA STi. Except, of course, the AN fittings on one of the two head breathers and where the turbo oil-feed tube had been pulled out and plugged.

Ok, here's the deal; and while my mind is still not 100% made up, I'm again seriously entertaining the thought of giving up.

It is just completely not feasible for me to go on with this car. It wasn't feasible in the first place to make a late-model car into a hotrod, given all of the circumstances. Going one step beyond a st4 isn't even feasible, let alone going into the engine.

If I make the final decision to terminate my project, the ONLY feasible route that I can see is to part it out.

Do I have all of the oem parts? No, but IMO; while I still wouldn't break even, if I were to purchase inexpensive, used oem stuffs with money from the sale of the aftermarket stuffs, it shouldn't be as much of a loss.

I think that I would need to take 257 shortblock and 207 heads to some shop to have them completely tested and reconditioned if necessary. I'd obviously need to send my transmission somewhere to have the reverse fork replaced.

I'm not going to lie. This is just plain getting me down. It blares "failure" at me. The planets are just not aligned for this right now.

Here's the deal. Where I'm at right now is that a generic engine swap is normally something any novice can do with patience, time, attention-to-detail (I really need to work on that:D), and assistance from someone in-the-know.

However, about 1k miles following the initial swap, I had some issues with misfire, then immediately following the rebuild....still misfiring on all 4.

Unable to locate origin of problem, mainly due to the fact that I can't just restrain myself to installing one thing at a time. Odds are there is something amiss with my heads.

Thought process: First, and I imagine that this probably coincides with when my engine first became damaged; following the break-in after the initial swap, I was a beta-tester for TXS's UTEC v4.2c. I couldn't get it to idle correctly, couldn't get it to overcome the hesitation between OLF/CLF, had some pretty major misfire issues. At that time, the only things new on the car were my EJ257 shortblock, a Greddy FMIC, and the FP Green turbo...Oh, and the hacked, WRX injectors. I was reusing my stock WRX heads and intake manifold. Everything else (exhaust, fuel pump) were from when it was a st4.

a) After I spent a lot of time tuning my zero column on my UTEC (long term/short term fueling trims), the hesitation never went away but at least became bearable.

b) I was having some major oil "pooling" on top of my block, which I attribute to the fact that I apparently left the PCV valve that's behind the intake manifold just open and not routed to the Y on the crankcase.

c) My ignition advance multiplier (IAM) would always go to 4 no matter what I did.

Second, I now have new/used heads. They are a completely unknown quantity beyond what the seller told me and the word of the reputable shop where he had them reconditioned/rebuilt. They are completely oem JDM STi v7 non-RA, except for the fact that one of the two breather holes on each head has been plugged, and the seller had the turbo oil-feed pipe pulled out and that hole plugged (I had to drill the plug out and put my old WRX oil-feed pipe back in.)

Second, passenger-side cam gears just EXPLODE while I'm driving 30mph to work. Low revs, maybe 3000-3500. WHY?

Third, after mechanic does a leak down on DRIVER SIDE?!?!, he reinstalls cam gears, timing belt, etc... and reports to me that the car started right up and ran smooth. He got it up to temp and then let it set for a few min. then attempted to restart it. Before the car even started, the belt slipped while it was cranking. He told me at this point that he told himself, "that ain't good..." and put the job aside until he could speak with me...through the service mgr. I did speak to him the following day. Apparently, I had one of the coolant lines behind the block without a clamp, so much of the coolant had leaked out. I also had one of the heads on so that it wasn't completely sealed, so oil was pretty low too. I've given myself two pokes in the eye.

Now he's telling me, in order to further investigate, he would need the engine pulled (better that I did it in order to save money) so that he could look at the heads/cams/cam caps/valves....

Lingering factors that I can't conclude on are, why the incessant misfire problem? Why did cam gears explode out of the blue? Why is belt now slipping?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

but I understand how you feel, you get so pissed off and just to say screw it and don't even want to see it. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

Putting 2+2 together. Mech told me that when he was installing timing belt, he said cam gear (R-In, if I recall correctly) just didn't feel right.

Another area where I'm telling on myself. When I was putting the timing belt on it was a major struggle. I honestly don't know, but I only stumbled on this diagram midway through: http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Engine/Second_Try/timing.diagram.jpg

I honestly had a bear of a time in getting the drivers' side cam gears to line up and then I had to use a couple of clamps to get them to stay in place.

Now, here's my thinking, although I'm starting to get a sinking feeling after re-reading the FSM:
• When the timing belts are not installed, four
camshafts are held at the “zero-lift” position,
where all cams on camshafts do not push the
intake and exhaust valves down. (Under this
condition, all valves remain unlifted.)
• When the camshafts are rotated to install the
timing belts, #2 intake and #4 exhaust cam of
camshafts (LH) are held to push their corresponding
valves down. (Under this condition,
these valves are held lifted.) Camshafts (RH)
are held so that their cams do not push valves
down.
• Camshafts (LH) must be rotated from the “zero-
lift” position to the position where the timing
belt is to be installed at as small an angle as
possible, in order to prevent mutual interference
of intake and exhaust valve heads.

I had the LH (passenger side) cams under no pressure from the valve springs and the RH (dr side) cams under a lot of spring pressure.:EEK: That and I could have very well rotated them NOT in accordance with the diagram pic I posted.:EEK:

Fact 1: I had the marks all lined up in accordance with the FSM.
Fact 2: The mech told me that the drivers' side cylinders all passed a leakdown.

I know it's fruitless to prognosticate from 800 miles away, but my gut is telling me that I'm getting to the heart of the problem, although things are still not adding up.

Just out of curiosity does anyone on this thread have a known good running engine with the valve covers off ?

It might help Pat a lot if you could document the postion of the cam lobes on all 4 cams with the cams at the "timing marks match" postion.

It would be a quick double check if he knew for certain that in that postion on a good running engine cam lobe such and such was in a specific position.


All I have is a set of bare heads with valves but no cams installed and not in proper time with a cam drive belt in place.

From the text in the service manual it looks like all the lobes on cylinders #1 and #3 are on their base circles ( ie all 8 valves on that head closed) and on the #2 cylinder you should have 4 of the 8 valves closed --- the exhaust valves on the base circle and the intake some place on the lobe ( be nice to know the depression of the valves with the cams in proper time).Also the#4 cylinder would likewise have the intake valves closed and on the base circle and the exhaust valves lifted and on the lobe someplace.


Is it possible to get the cam timing marks to line up with one pair of cams 180 deg out of phase on the DOHC engines ??

I accidently did that on my SOHC 1.8 L subaru GL the first time I replaced the cam drive belt. It would just almost start, but not quite. Got the cams in phase and it ran much better :rolleyes:

I know the old 4 cylinder Jeep engines would just barely run with 2 of the 4 cylinders ignition wires crossed and only working on 2 cylinders.


We know from experience that the subaru engine can run surpisingly well with two nearly dead cylinders due to broken pistons thanks to the turbocharger.

Pat --- I'm really beginning to wonder if you've been driving around on a turbocharged two cylinder engine. When you looked at the plugs did it look like all 4 plugs were firing ?? If two cylinders were just pumping air and fuel and getting their spark on the exhaust stroke that would lead to a crappy running engine ??? Once the turbo is making a bit of boost the out of phase cylinders would even make a tiny amount of power as a compressed air motor, of course you would be burning all that unburnt fuel air in the exhaust manifold instead of the cylinders.


Larry

Larry,

I don't know the current condition of the plugs. I will Monday, though. Mech said that he had let it run in order to get the oil up to temp and it ran fine. Only when he shut it down, let it cool, and tried to crank it over again did the belt slip. He didn't even allow it to fire up when he heard the tale-tell sound of the belt slipping.

I ought to just put aside my distant troubleshooting until I get home. I know scratching your head right beside me, but as difficult as it is for me to judge what's wrong with it from so far away; it becomes exponentially frustrating for you to do third (even fourth) person.:)

I'll be home Saturday morning and whether they're open or not, I'm going over to check some stuff out....like the plugs.:)

I understand entirely -- just relax and enjoy the holiday.

I'll bet you a dollar when you find the root cause it will all make sense.

Have a good turkey day ! --- the company catered in a meal for us today, so I need to run down to the break area and poach some more chow before its all gone.

Larry

You are worth your and your car's weight in gold.

Thanks for the kind words but just trying to be supportive and helpful.

In that vein, I just had an idea that might explain all the things you have experienced recently.

Now keep in mind this is only a remote possibility and only an educated guess but here goes.

Lets assume that my above post properly discribed the situation. You have one bank of the engine with the cams in proper time with the engine and ignition system, and they run the engine well enough to move the car. You would then also have 2 cylinders on the other bank that were operating the intake and exhaust valves one cycle out of phase with the ignition. When the intake valves opened on what should be the end of the compression stroke, beginning of the power stroke (just about the time the spark fired) the positive pressure in the manifold would blow fill the cylinder, the piston would be pushed down the cylinder by the manifold pressure (when you were under boost --- like oh how about 3000 rpm), the spark would not normally be able to fire the mixture. The intake remains open during what should be the power stroke, filling the cylinder with fuel air mix, then just before bottom dead center the exhaust valve starts to open on a cylinder full of fuel air mix. As the piston starts to rise it pushes raw air fuel mix out into the exhaust manifold, the mixture ignites on the hot manifold or hot exhaust gases trying to blow back into the cylinder and the mixture flashes back into the cylinder as the piston is coming up the cylinder on what should be the exhaust stroke.

You would get a sudden power pulse as the fuel air mix backfires into the cylinder and that would try to turn the engine backwards. Do that at just the right time and you would get a very sudden change in engine rpm. If this happened just as the connecting rod / crankshaft angle was near 90 degrees so it had maximum mechanical advantage it might actually turn the engine backwards a 1/4 turn or so --- the cam belt freaks out due to the sudden change in rpm -- direction of rotation and the only way to relieve the tension is to jump a tooth.


Not saying this is for sure what is happening, but on first blush it seems a logical reason for the jumped timing belts and blown cam timing gears.

Need some of the other motor heads out there to double check my scenario but at this time of the morning is sounds good.



-------------

Now if that is correct, what is a simple way to test it?

If the engine is really running on only 2 cylinders, if you were to disconnect the spark leads on either of those cylinders it should not run at all. If you disconnect the spark leads on the the two out of phase cylinders it should hardly make any difference at all.

Just a thought experiment.

Larry

pat: been there, felt that way. it sucks. I almost bought a cobra just to not ever have to lok at my car again.

It passes with time, and now I am happy that I still have my car. It takes a few weeks, but the feeling passes.

Larry,

I'm going to call Subaru now and see if he'd be open to doing that. Else I'll pull it home and try it.

That would certainly explain things. Would it idle smoothly like that, though?

TR2002, thanks much. When it's happening to you it's easy to forget that it's happened to many before me.:)

Found the problem, I believe.

I honestly researched this with the due dilligence. I was under the impression that if you wanted to temporarily run AVCS heads without the AVCS enabled, all that'd need to be done is that the oil holes on the end of the intake cams should be plugged, WRX cam gears used, and only the WRX cam position sensor needed to be plugged in.

Just got off of the phone with Ron from Axis Power Racing who told me that the AVCS ?solenoids? WOULD need to have the oil pressure pipes hooked up as well.

I didn't do that.

The pipes I'm speaking of are copper and about 10mm in diameter. There's a short one on the drivers' side, and a long one that routes under runners on the intake mani (what the yellow arrow is pointing at.)
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Engine/Second_Try/AVCS.oil.jpg

Good news is that I'm pretty certain this is THE problem. Once it's addressed, I should be on the road.

Bad news is that I may have very well damaged or warped the intake cams as well as the front journals (the ones that have the AVCS solenoid as their cam caps.)

I'll report more as it arises.

It's getting hard to follow this with the time I can allot to it, but:

Yes, it is a bear to position the driver side camshaft sprockets while putting the timing belt on. Having done it with 2 people, I cannot fathom how one would do it very accurately without 4 hands.

I had the LH (passenger side) cams under no pressure from the valve springs and the RH (dr side) cams under a lot of spring pressure
Correct. No "EEK"
That and I could have very well rotated them NOT in accordance with the diagram pic
I believe I am correct in saying that had you not rotated them properly, you'd have had much larger troubles than you have now, and much sooner than you did.

Thanks Jeff. That definitely makes me feel better. As you can probably identify with, sometimes it feels like you're working in a vacuum; making the best conclusions you can based off of assumption.:)

Yeah, I can identify with that very well :)

Man, I've been looking all over, but am not finding anything. I don't know how I spaced out on this.

I thought, all I needed to do was to reuse my old cam gears and cam position sensor and I'd be good to go.

I'm trying to wrap my hands around what and where the potential damage might be. So far I'm guesstimating the intake cams themselves, the journals or at least those that are nearest to the avcs solenoid.

I hate the thought of having to pull the engine again.

Could someone explain to me, once I pull the engine and pull the heads off, what am I looking for? I'm guessing that a machine shop would have the necessary tools to check the ?surfaces? of the journals and one to check the straightness of the cams; maybe even ?scope? the cams to check for internal damage?

I have no idea.

Could someone explain to me, once I pull the engine and pull the heads off, what am I looking for? I'm guessing that a machine shop would have the necessary tools to check the ?surfaces? of the journals and one to check the straightness of the cams; maybe even ?scope? the cams to check for internal damage?

I have no idea.

The cam bearing journals on the heads are AL. The cams are very, very hard. If you did not oil the front journal on the I cams, chances are that you would have to align-hone (bore?) the heads to get them back in spec. I don't know who I would trust to do that locally. Or even if it has been done. I'd talk to one of the rally car-builders. They tear up everything. :lol:

If you have an outside mic, measure the I cams' journals for wear. Give me the specs, and I'll measure mine. Do the same for the heads' journals (of course, you'll need an inside mic for that).

What Larry suggests makes sense, but in light of recent developments....I think the cam bearing journals were tightening up when you put heat into the engine, and maybe that's why the belt flew off / your gears fragged.

Easy for me to say, but be patient. Your issue can be solved with good machine work, IMO.

S.

Man, I've been looking all over, but am not finding anything. I don't know how I spaced out on this.

I thought, all I needed to do was to reuse my old cam gears and cam position sensor and I'd be good to go.

I'm trying to wrap my hands around what and where the potential damage might be. So far I'm guesstimating the intake cams themselves, the journals or at least those that are nearest to the avcs solenoid.

I hate the thought of having to pull the engine again.

Could someone explain to me, once I pull the engine and pull the heads off, what am I looking for? I'm guessing that a machine shop would have the necessary tools to check the ?surfaces? of the journals and one to check the straightness of the cams; maybe even ?scope? the cams to check for internal damage?

I have no idea.

Pat,

I just went through all of this and what a fiasco it was. I had my cam journals hard chromed and then a very expensive machining process to the heads. PM me for details.

Todd


P.S. You can look at your cam journals for damage. If they aren't smooth and have a scoured or burnt finish then there most likely is damage. A good machine shop will have the equipment to check straightness and a micrometer to check journal sizes. You probably already have the Subaru manual so you can reference that for the sizes. The heads and cam caps are more fragile though. If they're too out of wack then you would need to build up the journals oversize and then use a boring bar/align bored to the heads.

Thanks both of you.

I'm headed over to the dealership now to explain this to him. He wants to pull the motor, but I think that's (probably what's gonna need to happen but...) premature right now.

Seems he oughta be able to get to the journals with it in the car before I go another step further.

BTW, what are outside and inside mics?:)

Micrometers = mics

If it was me, I'd be pulling the engine to get a much closer look at things at this point. It's 2 hours of work for for anyone having done it before, IMO.

Hoping from afar for ya.

On another note - kind of funny (well not really funny) on all these motor builds and pulls that some of us have and are currently going through. After all this time for me, my motor build #2 should actually be going back in my WRX tonight :D I made extra, extra certain to be as clean as possible and check and plastigauge measurements including all of the measurements taken initially by the machine shop, etc. I'll still keep my fingers crossed with the first start and probably have an uneasy feeling in my stomach.

Good luck. I wish there was something I could do to help.....but that probably wouldn't be a good thing.;)

Only had time this weekend to pull one (drivers) valve cover. I didn't get the cam caps off but pulled the intake ones back in the hopes of being able to see...something.
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/Second_Try/problems/poss.dam.cams.1.jpg
At least this side looks good, but I won't know until I get all of the caps and cams out.

Of course the passenger side is my real concern. Hopefully I'll get it done this week.

During the course of this, I learned that I need an STi oil feed line than the Forced Performance one I had for my WRX. That's ordered. I also ordered the oil pipes, banjo bolts and gaskets.

If everything does check out, ie there's no visible damage nor evidence of overheating to bearings in cam caps and journals, as well as the cams themselves; can I procede with rebuild or could there be microscopic damage that only a machine shop could identify?

edit: (5MAR06) BIGGEST LESSON LEARNED. IF YOU HAVE DECIDED TO RUN AVCS HEADS AND FOR WHATEVER REASON WANT THE AVCS DISABLED, DON'T DO THIS!!!
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/Second_Try/problems/poss.dam.cams.3.jpg
That is the oil feed or oil pressure signal for the AVCS. Intent is to ensure that the cam journal and bearning/cam cap is properly lubricated. It is required whether AVCS is functional or not.:)

Found the problem, I believe.

I honestly researched this with the due dilligence. I was under the impression that if you wanted to temporarily run AVCS heads without the AVCS enabled, all that'd need to be done is that the oil holes on the end of the intake cams should be plugged, WRX cam gears used, and only the WRX cam position sensor needed to be plugged in.

.

Phil from Element Tuning had a similar problem when he first put the EJ257 in his WRX. I think he had to get a complete new head on the side that was damaged. The oil lines supply oil to the cam shaft and since the cam wasn't getting oil it overheated and from what Phil said the cam "welded" to the head. Hopefully you caught the problem soon enough. I ran the EJ257 for about 6 months with the avcs not wired but all oil lines were hooked up and it worked great.
I read this post several times because I was thinking about swaping CP pistons in my block but I decided to have Worldone Performance build a block for me. Good luck, it will all work out in the end $$$.

Do you really need to run the WRX cam gear?

The AVCS cams have the provision on the back side of them for the WRX style mag pick up.

That was my understanding based on a thread or two I had found months ago. I was unaware of the provision you're talking about.

If you could point me somewhere that I might could get some more detail, I'd appreciate it.

http://www.wrxturbo.com/Images/Brad/Subaru/STiCamgear.jpg

Thats the back of the drivers side cam gear. It looks like it already has the timing marks in the proper place for the WRX sensor. Unless they are off in placement, but they didn't look like it from memory.

does anyone have the picture of the back side of a WRX driver side intake gear?

Brad

I will tonight.:)

Do you really need to run the WRX cam gear?

The AVCS cams have the provision on the back side of them for the WRX style mag pick up.

You are right. All you need is to put the wrx cam sensor on the the AVCS head.

http://www.elementtuning.com/V8%20Install/Elemen3.jpg
http://www.elementtuning.com/V8%20Install/Elemen2.jpg

Right now, all I have are WRX cam gears. I know I need them, but don't have the ducats right now.

You are right. All you need is to put the wrx cam sensor on the the AVCS head.
Just had to point out yours is post #555.:)

update :confused:

None at the moment.

I've had it towed to Super Sport Compacts, owned by Joe Demaree (http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2005/drivers/J_Demaree.html). One of his associates and former employees is 99RSTurbo (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914639) on here; and who I believe should lend a hand.

At this point, all that is required to do is to inspect the front portion of the cams, I dunno the term, but the 'neck' of the shaft itself, the journal, and the bearing portions of the solenoid/cam cap area.

If they check out, then retorque the caps and reseal the valve covers, put the cam gears back on, reset the timing belt, then fix what I screwed up. That means they will just need to route the 'new' oil feed lines (2x to avcs solenoids, 1x to turbo.) Obviously, the one on the pass side goes under the runners of the intake manifold, so it may need to come off.

Hopefully that's all It'll need before I send it to someone else to fix the reverse.

I saw that guy run his 11.7 at Muncie. That's a sharp RS. Maybe he can help me out next. :p

I'll let you know what they have to say after they've had a chance to look at it, Matt.

Thanks man, I may figure things out yet... good luck though

Should be able to pick it up tomorrow.

Everything spins good and the compression checks out.

I'll post up if there are issues.

Keeping fingers crossed for good news!

Larry

Good luck, you've earned it! :D

I even dreamed about it last night.;)

It'll be hard but my fingers will be crossed on the drive up.:D Thanks Larry & Matt.

Your back. The car's back. Great!!! Please post even if it's perfect.

Alrighty!!!! Car is running. Small leak on at the front of the valve covers. I will have it in my possession on Monday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D

Now for the tune.

I also got to see Carey Bales' car. http://www.careybales.com/build.htm

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914639

I think the video that TyranosaurusWRX took of his car at the dragstrip is in that post.

That car is the most trick Impreza I've seen in person. Talk about external motivation.:)

:banana:

AAAAAAwwwlllllright !!

Boy great to hear your near the end of you saga!
You will be so stoked to actually have it all together and running.
One of the sweet satisfactions of doing a project like you took on is the the self satisfaction when it all wraps up sucessfully.
In time the problems will fade in comparison to all the valuable lessons learned and experience base you've built up.

I very much wish that more folks in the subaru community had the stones to do their own projects inspite of the inevitable "issues" that crop up.
Its the hands on experience that you can't put a dollar value on.

Thumbs up for sticking with this to the end inspite of all the many large and small frustrations.

Larry

So was there anything that the shop had to repair? Good news tho :)

Jeff & Larry,

Thanks much. Larry, you're exactly right. I find it very difficult to identify anything else I've ever done that was so gratifying on so many levels....and such an emotional rollercoaster, too.;)

cdvma,

Yup. I had the coolant line behind the motor on barely. I reversed the fuel lines going from the filter to the rail (if I recall, though, I didn't have them fully on on purpose. I had the clamps off, too. It had been a while since I'd replaced the fuel filter, though, that I forgot that I left them that way and so when we were trying to start it up today, that caused about an hours worth of consternation...lesson learned. I will say that I was tremendously impressed by the way Joe troubleshot the problem and found it fairly quickly.)

Lastly, when I took the car up to them, the state it was in was that the drivers' side valve cover was off and the cam caps were on but not torqued. The passenger side was still completely together. While the valve cover leak on the drivers' side was the primary one (~1 drop/min where the timing belt cover meets the head); the passenger side valve cover has a leak as well. I sealed that side up months ago, so I didn't do a good enough job.

When I took it (had it towed....70 miles. AAA rocks!:) ) up to them, my feeling was that all of my humiliating, novice, fat-finger mistakes would all be identified and ridiculed....not something that I'd look forward to writing on here (but I would, regardless.) That and I knew full well how mechanics don't like taking on in-progress jobs to fix what some amateur such as myself messed up. It's got to be like finding a needle in a haystack. However, I felt like I was able to give them a complete status report of what happened to it and what needed to be done. Joe Demaree is a class act, as are the folks who work for him. Of course, the bill wasn't small, but the work they did for me was definitely well worth it; at a minimum for the peace of mind it gave me.

BTW, I'd like to note who Joe Demaree is; he's the guy who did the work for me.
http://ndra.nopi.com/2005/kd_dsp_racer.cfm?vrid=16

Alrighty!!!! Car is running. Small leak on at the front of the valve covers. I will have it in my possession on Monday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D

Now for the tune.

I also got to see Carey Bales' car. http://www.careybales.com/build.htm

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=914639

I think the video that TyranosaurusWRX took of his car at the dragstrip is in that post.

That car is the most trick Impreza I've seen in person. Talk about external motivation.:)
That car is sweet, it has everything.

Did you get your car yet? Are you out driving? lol
Some of my motives for questioning is a little selfish....I want to know with all the drama about Crawford pistons right now that some are running a-ok. Especially since ours were ordered near/around the same time...not that that necessarily matters. :alien:
Hope all is well!!

Tomorrow.:( It's ok. I can wait another day; I've waited this long. They're replacing the cam seals and Subaru sent them seals for the RS (though I didn't think there was a difference.)

I know what you're talking about wrt the drama. I too am anxious to get it back and form my own opinion. I'll let you know.

Tomorrow.:( It's ok. I can wait another day; I've waited this long. They're replacing the cam seals and Subaru sent them seals for the RS (though I didn't think there was a difference.)

I know what you're talking about wrt the drama. I too am anxious to get it back and form my own opinion. I'll let you know.
cdvma,

I've got to add to my list. The reason I still haven't picked it up is because I reused my WRX valve cover gaskets....which LEAK.;) Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I'm willing them to receive that gasket today. I'm going up there regardless.

Any chance there's a difference between US STi valve cover gaskets (pn's 13272aa140 - LH and 13270aa190 - RH) and Japanese valve cover gaskets (13272aa092 - LH and 13270aa160 - RH)?

Good question.....What's the part number on the 2.0 WRX? Is that any different? I doesn't seem like there should be.

Good question.....What's the part number on the 2.0 WRX? Is that any different? I doesn't seem like there should be.

USDM STI valve covers definitely have different gaskets than the USDM WRX. I know because i had purchased a gasket kit and had to get another set of valve cover gaskets.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
US STi, Jap STi, and US WRX are all different.:(

Anyone know if the dealership is able to order JDM part numbers?

Hmmmm.

I've got a copy of SubaruFast and started experimenting with it. Up to now, I had only been able to see up to 2001 JDM only. I entered another code and realized that it would allow me to see other (up to 2003 to include US STi.)

Now I have completely new valve cover gasket part numbers. 13270aa151 - RH and 13272aa074 - LH. Those are STi (JDM & USDM from what I can tell.)

cdvma,

I've got to add to my list. The reason I still haven't picked it up is because I reused my WRX valve cover gaskets....which LEAK.;) Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I'm willing them to receive that gasket today. I'm going up there regardless.

Threebond is your friend. I wouldn't even fit a new cam cover gasket without it. Even subaru use it in a few places on the gasket.

Threebond is your friend. I wouldn't even fit a new cam cover gasket without it. Even subaru use it in a few places on the gasket.


I simply used Black RTV for the front of the cam cover gaskets and the rear where the plastic half shaped plugs are fitted into the cyl head. I suppose if you were in a real bind you could do the whole gasket surface and they wouldn't leak.

I'm using Fujibond.

my drivers side vcover gasket seeps a wee bit. I used new gasket, fujibond all over it and new "washers" under the vcover bolts. real PITA. I am thinking of having the dealer take it off and re-seal. I am sick and tired of wrenching.

Just got it back. Drove it ~80 miles from Indianapolis down to Bloomington and generally everything is fine.

I do have a pretty curious misfire problem, which I figured/hoped that having the oil lines appropriately going to the avcs would eliminate.

One cause that's pretty certain (although, I think there is most likely more than one cause) is the Hypersingle clutch. I had the Delta Dash up and showing codes real-time. Since I don't have any experience with anything but an oem clutch/flywheel, I was definitely 'beating' on it while I was in a mall parking lot; and a P0301 and P0303 came on.

The clutch and/or trans makes a lot of noise now while I'm in gear but decelerating off throttle.

The engine is, however, very quiet and smooth and didn't seem to eat any oil. I stopped 3 times mid-trip to check the oil level.

I'll try and post a sound clip of the engine here in the next few days.

The clutch and/or trans makes a lot of noise now while I'm in gear but decelerating off throttle.

welcome to the world of the lightweight flywheel. ;)

Great news that the motor is good and smooth.

hey pat, i wanted to point out at this point that it might be a bad idea to swap pistons on your own, at least if you want the car back on the road in less than say, 14 months.

:devil:

yes, i am busting your balls a smidgen... not any less proud and a bit jealous of you though! :)

hey pat, i wanted to point out at this point that it might be a bad idea to swap pistons on your own, at least if you want the car back on the road in less than say, 14 months.

:devil:

yes, i am busting your balls a smidgen... not any less proud and a bit jealous of you though! :)
^^^ :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think I may run a close second. :( :p
Good to hear it, Pat.

Ken, hold on a second. Let me write that down.;)

You know, 14 months ago, I wish I could say that I would have taken your advice but unfortunately I probably wouldn't have. I dunno. Maybe.

I read, but I didn't fully realize the ramifications of a light fw and stronger clutch. Are the misfires now a part of life? On all 4 all the time? Will these misfires cause my ignition advance multiplier to remain low?

^^^ :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think I may run a close second. :( :p
Good to hear it, Pat.
Next episode for me is transmission repair (reverse fork replacement).:D

I'm gonna be building muscles, in the meantime, pushing the car out of parking spots.:mad: :lol:

...oh, and this time I'm not doing it myself.

I'm guessing misfire is most likely due to Exedy Hypersingle & Perrin lightweight crank pulley.

Ken, hold on a second. Let me write that down.;)

You know, 14 months ago, I wish I could say that I would have taken your advice but unfortunately I probably wouldn't have. I dunno. Maybe.

I read, but I didn't fully realize the ramifications of a light fw and stronger clutch. Are the misfires now a part of life? On all 4 all the time? Will these misfires cause my ignition advance multiplier to remain low?


the clutch doesn't have much to do with it, although it might make you stall the car a bit more often, esp. when paired with a LW fly.

the misfires are INTERPRETED misfires, not real ones.

the oem ecu is programmed to be very sensitive to misfire since it would cause an ultra rich unburned charge to be dumped into the exhaust. this in turn could/would damage the cats. think of all the melted up pipe cats. think of how many of them were running a VTA BOV. there IS a connection... ;) so since cats are emissions related it's a part of OBD2.

the way that the ecu detects misfires is by "knowing" the instantaneous rpm of the engine via the crank position sensor. the ecu also knows when the plugs are firing and when they should be doing work to spink the crank. each time a cylinder fires there's a slight peak in rpm, and then a lull before the next combustion event where the rpms drop. the ecu is fast enough to detect these minute speed ups and slow downs, and expects to see them each time you get a spark.

by changing the rotating mass of the engine you have also changed the way in which the crank rpm changes. in some cars it's enough to make the ecu balk and think there's misfires occuring. in some cars, they threw misfire codes while bone stock, and iirc there was a SOA/FHI reflash for that issue. the important thing to remember is that it doesn't necessarily mean you're missing, just that your engine is exhibiting the characteristics of a stock engine which MIGHT be misfiring.

i turned off all CELS with my utec years ago. got a bunch of 'em on right now i'm sure, but i know the car runs fine. :lol: 3 seconds with launch control will give you all 4 misfire codes anyway.

hth
ken

Awesome man! Oh and when parking, always find the ones where you'll be parked front of the car out ;)

Glad to hear it's working out for you, Pat!

Hyper Singles are noisy, huh? :D

S.

the misfires are INTERPRETED misfires, not real ones.

i turned off all CELS with my utec years ago. got a bunch of 'em on right now i'm sure, but i know the car runs fine. :lol: 3 seconds with launch control will give you all 4 misfire codes anyway.

hth
ken
It most certainly helps.

Funny thing, though. I've had my CEL turned off forever, and when only 2 or 3 misfire codes are thrown, it stays off, but when all 4 have reportedly misfired, the CEL comes on even though it's turned off in the UTEC's params.

Also, my butt tells me that when it gets to this point, the car feels like it's running rougher and it seems like it runs smoother after I clear the cels with the delta dash. It's probably my imagination. I'm just going to inspect a few things to put my mind at ease that misfire isn't occuring for other reasons.

Steve,

Don't get me wrong. I bought your clutch assy in order to ensure it could hold the additional power. I don't care how it sounds or if the flywheel causes phantom misfires. I just didn't realize that it would rattle like that and, not knowing that, was concerned that something was amiss. If it's loud and rattly but all is good, then I don't care about the noise in the least.:) For one thing, it'll keep my wife from driving it.;)

Awesome man! Oh and when parking, always find the ones where you'll be parked front of the car out ;)
Don't I know it.:lol:

i turned off all CELS with my utec years ago. got a bunch of 'em on right now i'm sure,


Hah, I guess you don't have emissions testing?? :(

Nope. Been lucky.:)

Hah, I guess you don't have emissions testing?? :(

sure i do.

but, funny thing was, when my obd2 port was scanned, the plug happened to be connected to a stock vw jetta.

:lol:

:devil:

sure i do.

but, funny thing was, when my obd2 port was scanned, the plug happened to be connected to a stock vw jetta.

:lol:

:devil:


Sweet! I've been lucky enough to have had letters stating that my car was inoperable for the last two years, which it pretty much has LOL! Well, anyway, I just want to be able to drive the thing in one of these days and pass :D As soon as my current little issues are fixed I will go and have it done.

Update: Drove the car about 300 miles in the last 2 days all over southern Indiana. Got my ignition advance multiplier up to 16 a few times, but I kept resetting my ECU to get rid of the misfire codes. I'm now convinced they are false misfires, but unfortunately, even though I can shut off my CEL with the UTEC, when you have a misfire CEL for all 4 cylinders, the light comes on and won't go off.

They may actually be misfires, but they only occur when I'm in stoplight-to-stoplight type situations and the clutch is kicking my ass. That clutch is hard to get used to. I wish I could say I'm getting used to constantly having to restart my car after the light turns green, but I can't. I'll figure it out, though.

Tried a few 'tuning' pulls today; a couple in 3rd but mostly in 4th. Kept getting 1 count of knock each in 4 consecutive lines on the log. Experimented with moving the injector scaling value around a bit. Right now it's too rich. It was WAY too lean set to 750/420.

Put it away until tomorrow or Sunday.

I'm also still leaking from the pass side valve cover. I'm going to put it up on the ramps and troubleshoot some things this weekend.

Just curious, what rpm were the knock counts? I have seen (and/or read)where engine noise can cause knock in higher regions of the tach, especially with noisy aftermarket pistons. When you are a little more familiar/comfy with how things are running, you may want to decrease the knock sensitivity just a hair. That is, if nothing else is causing the knock for sure. Just a thought...

My other laptop is out in the car, but if I recall, it was just before and after the 5k area. I'll post it up tomorrow, but point well taken about the knock sensitivity. I've dedicated the weekend to tuning.;)

Mine was leaking from the pass vavle cover for the first 100 miles or so after I got it back together. Turned out to be the cam seal though. It just looked like it was coming from the cover. That's something to check out on yours.

I think I'm seeing a trend in my dumbassedness.

This is the log from yesterday: LOG (http://files.gpatmac.com/UTEC/FEB06/17feb.f3rd.txt). Notice the timing where it was knocking.

Here is a log that I took in MAR 04, right before I went on deployment and immediately following the swap: LOG (http://files.gpatmac.com/UTEC/FEB06/Old/2.mar.04.f.txt).

The timing map I was using at the time was what I'd used with the 2.0 liter, but the fuel was tuned. I guess after I saw how there was no knock, all was good. Based on the fact that I've never come to a conclusion as to how I destroyed that piston, could ultra high timing, albeit without knock, be the culprit?

A log from Oct 04, right after I got back from deployment and right before (or after) the piston broke: LOG (http://files.gpatmac.com/UTEC/FEB06/Old/10Oct04.txt). You'll notice that the timing is much more amenable, however, the damage may have already been done.

The timing you are running in that area is almost the same as I run on my ej257 with the Hydra but your AFR is alot richer. In that area I target 11.0-11.2 on 93 octane but I'm also running the STI heads and AVCS cams so that may make a difference. When I used the utec I keep having probelms with misfire and it turned out that the utec fried my coils. Aslo I have heard people who are running forged pistons say that they get 1 counts of knock from time to time.

I am seriously considering taking TyroRex's advice and bumping my knock sensitivity up a bit.

Do you have the TSX tuner with the knock sensor. If so you should be able to listen to the engine knock and adjust your knock threashold. I had a TSX tuner when I had a utec and it was very help. If not then it's hard to tell if you are getting "real" knock. I hate to sound like I'm promoting the Hydra but the 2d graphical knock threashold map is amazing. Its user definable and it is easy to read. The knock threashold map is one of my favorite features. You should download the software and play with sometime.

I'd like to. A friend has it, but I haven't had a chance to check it out.

I do have the tuner and have played with the mic, but haven't ever 'utilized' it yet. I've ran it through my stereo but can't imagine using headphones unless I'm the passenger. I've got to drive up to Indy in order to have someone give me a hand.

BTW, are you anywhere near Augusta?:)

I'm about 30-45min east of Atlanta (depending on traffic).

If I get stationed at Ft Gordon, we'll have to meet up....hopefully at Road Atlanta.:)

Anyhow, a couple of items of interest: Click here to watch Startup2 (http://media.putfile.com/Startup2) -- short vid
1. I bumped idle up 100rpm. Hoping that will help compensate for whatever is causing the misfires (either my light flywheel/crank pulley or my injectors...I really need to take them to LinderTech in Indy.)
2. I just reflashed the UTEC to 5.0 so I need to retune again. Maybe it'll be easier to overcome the low-mid throttle/high rpm richness. That and I've got the bigmaf that still needs to be put on. I'm still researching up on how I'll need to compensate scaling for it.
3. I've still got a slight leak either at the pass. valve cover gasket or one of the cam oil seals (pn.G73216 (http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/5A/i013-1.gif)). What led me to check is because at stops, sometimes smoke would waft up. However, I let it run for about 10m today while it was on jackstands, and only saw a small amt of smoke coming from the uppipe section of the header. There's a bit of coked-on oil that's smoldering....oil from the turbo, obviously.:( I've retorqued all of the up/down nuts, so we'll see.
4. I need to put the bigmaf on, but am still studying as to what compensation I'll need to make in the scaling.
5. My recirculation of the HKS is all jacked.
6. I've got an exhaust leak. I've got a 3" turboback that I've put together over the last year or so, except for the 3rd cat delete. It's a 2.5" Scoobysport. I'm hoping that's where the leak is so when I swap it, the leak will disappear....yeah, right.

I'm curious how many of y'all have used a vacuum gauge to diagnose your EJ.

I stole this article, but I'm thinking that it's a no-brainer as far as troubleshooting goes...unless someone points out how our cars are once again mutants that buck traditional tools.:)

http://gpatmac.com/files/AutoSpeed/using.vacuum.gauge.eng.diag.html

Not on the EJ engines but have used it in the past. The down side of the vacuum gauge is those readings change with altitude, so folks at high altitude should not be too concerned if their readings are lower than quoted in the article. It is also a bit dependent on a specific engine type and a bit of experience by the operator to figure out which symptom is causing which reading. Several of those modes are very similar in practice and not likely to do you much good most of the time.


Low vacuum in general is a good indicator of the health or lack of health of the engine. Best judged based on known normal values for your engine. IE you know you normally have a rock steady idle vacuum of 16 in-hg and all of a sudden you have a value of 15 in-hg that pulses regularly down to 14 in-hg, you might have a weak cylinder. It is usually much easier to hook up the vacuum gauge than to do a compression check so it is a quick diagnostic.

Severe performance cams can wreck havoc on those "standard" values. A 272 cam will have lots of pulsations at idle that won't smooth out until you get to higher rpm.

Manifold vacuum is useful for finding gasket leaks in the intake tract from throttle body to intake valve. On noisy engines you may not be able to hear (or at least pin point) the sound of a vacuum leak but spraying water on the gaskets while watching the vacuum gauge will quickly show when you wet down the area that is leaking.

Still a useful thing to keep in mind, especially if you get baseline numbers for your car under easy to repeat conditons.

Larry

I use a vac gauge on my car everyday. It's called my my vac/boost gauge ;) Seriously though, after I did all of the engine build stuff several times now I do pay attention to it each time I start the engine.

As Hotrod mentioned, there are different variables and each engine can be different, altitude, cams, etc etc. I mention each engine can be different because even though we're dealing with the sames EJ25x in our case, we've got different hardware configs which can make a difference.

I've seen my engine go from about 18in-hg (vac) warm idle to about 20-21 in the past 3500 miles since the build. Some of that is because I pulled the PCV recently too but it seemed to be pulling stronger vac steadily over the course of the several thousand miles break in.

Larry is a genious in my book. I always find it hard to respond with anything more than 'thanks Hotrod', which doesn't convey my appreciation like I'd like to.

My base of knowledge started with this car. I know that vacuum gauges are well entrenched as a tuning/troubleshooting tool by the old schoo, naturally aspirated crew, but the only gauges I have any experience with are boost, oil press, and egt.:) Just as target AFR's differ, I didn't know how accurate a vac gauge would be on an FI car.

I guess sometimes it's easy to forget that we all have 4 cyl, N/A cars...when not in boost.;)

edit: Oh, and I thought that the vac readings on my boost gauge were inaccurate. I've never paid any attention to it.

it seemed to be pulling stronger vac steadily over the course of the several thousand miles break in.

this must make you happy... ;)

this must make you happy... ;)


You know it! I would've been in bad shape right now had I been losing vac steadily over the course of the break-in :lol: :D

Severe performance cams can wreck havoc on those "standard" values. A 272 cam will have lots of pulsations at idle that won't smooth out until you get to higher rpm.

And the standard value for an STI is around 21-22 inches or 500-520 mm Hg. New cams and motor puts you at a disadvantage becuase you don't know what your vacuum should be. New DPR AVCS cams lowered mine considerably, tuning (leaner, more timing) and break-in raised the vacuum.

Good luck Pat!!

That would be cool. I was stationed a Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah for 5 years but I've been out for a little over 3 years.


If I get stationed at Ft Gordon, we'll have to meet up....hopefully at Road Atlanta.:)

Anyhow, a couple of items of interest: Click here to watch Startup2 (http://media.putfile.com/Startup2) -- short vid
1. I bumped idle up 100rpm. Hoping that will help compensate for whatever is causing the misfires (either my light flywheel/crank pulley or my injectors...I really need to take them to LinderTech in Indy.)
2. I just reflashed the UTEC to 5.0 so I need to retune again. Maybe it'll be easier to overcome the low-mid throttle/high rpm richness. That and I've got the bigmaf that still needs to be put on. I'm still researching up on how I'll need to compensate scaling for it.
3. I've still got a slight leak either at the pass. valve cover gasket or one of the cam oil seals (pn.G73216 (http://www.subaruparts.com/subaru.diag/5A/i013-1.gif)). What led me to check is because at stops, sometimes smoke would waft up. However, I let it run for about 10m today while it was on jackstands, and only saw a small amt of smoke coming from the uppipe section of the header. There's a bit of coked-on oil that's smoldering....oil from the turbo, obviously.:( I've retorqued all of the up/down nuts, so we'll see.
4. I need to put the bigmaf on, but am still studying as to what compensation I'll need to make in the scaling.
5. My recirculation of the HKS is all jacked.
6. I've got an exhaust leak. I've got a 3" turboback that I've put together over the last year or so, except for the 3rd cat delete. It's a 2.5" Scoobysport. I'm hoping that's where the leak is so when I swap it, the leak will disappear....yeah, right.

And the standard value for an STI is around 21-22 inches or 500-520 mm Hg. New cams and motor puts you at a disadvantage becuase you don't know what your vacuum should be. New DPR AVCS cams lowered mine considerably, tuning (leaner, more timing) and break-in raised the vacuum.

Good luck Pat!!Thanks much. I'm going to need to baseline and then compare with what I find online, so that is certainly helpful.
That would be cool. I was stationed a Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah for 5 years but I've been out for a little over 3 years.I'm Ranger qualified...soon to be a Ranger IT guy.:D

With the higher idle, I drove to work an no CELs.:) On the way home, though, I only let the car warm up for about 1min and I got the misfire codes again. I think my recirc hose may have come off though.:(

I thought that the vac readings on my boost gauge were inaccurate. I've never paid any attention to it.

By the way Pat thanks much for the kind words!

You may want to look closely at your boost gauge units (for those of you who have electronic boost control gauges). Some of them change units of measure when they go to manifold vacuum. I know my Blitz does.

Larry

My boost gauge does read in the vacuum range and it's readings correspond to those in the Element Tuning Hydra--they are both triggered off of 3 bar solid state piezo-electric sensors (Greddy boost gauge).

With respect to using vacuum as a dianostic tool. I think the mechanical vacuum gauges are more informative. While the electronic gauges are nice and smooth for boost reads, you really want to see the fluctations that a mechanical gauge provides for checking on valves, rings, ..... all the stuff in that article you quote. My boost gauge "reacts" to change, but you can tell it's dampened to some degree--not what you want.

BTW atmospheric pressure will affect only relative gauges, not ones based on absolute pressure.

So, how ya been rollin' Pat?

Very nice! Thanks.

There are a few issues but they are minor. One is a little more serious than minor, but I've been busy AND procrastinating....small oil leak.:(

That and the tuning has been going a little slow. Best described as User Headspace & Timing error.;)

Congrats, Pat... you're officially the first thread to be moved into the new Built Motor forum. :D

Thanks very much. Such an extraordinarily dubious distinction!;) Now, let's hope I don't have to start another thread in this particular forum.

Matt/T.WRX, what's the latest on yours?

Sweet, "built motor discussion," This thread definitely deserves to be at the forefront of that!
I tore my stuff down again, everything looks great so far. It's still apart unfortunately. I think the oversized "restriction" on the banjo bolt may be the culprit of the oil-in-the-intake issue. I am going to convert to shimless buckets while everything is apart, so I have not been in a big hurry to get stuff back together. Warm weather is coming, I need to get on it! Sick of driving the slow, gas guzzling Pathfinder. I'd rather drive the fast gas guzzling rex. :p

I'm gonna have to get back up to FW soon.

Yeah, if you do stop by for sure!

Best described as User Headspace & Timing error.;)


Let's see how many people actually know what that means (without google).

Let's see how many people actually know what that means (without google).

Hmmmm -- Pat are you having trouble installing an M2HB on your car? --- or are you commenting on the tuners ability to consider all factors necessary to get the results you want?

Larry

Hmmmm -- Pat are you having trouble installing an M2HB on your car? --- or are you commenting on the tuners ability to consider all factors necessary to get the results you want?

Larry
It's Mad Max time, Larry. M2, portable smoke grendade launchers & up armor on my danger-wagon.;)

Naw, I'm talking smack about my tuner (me) having too much headspace and not enough gray matter.

I really think I need to stop tuning until I can rehook up my EGT. My timing is awfully low but I'm still knocking, so I'm awfully worried my my cylinder pressure. I need to overcome my knocking so I can start increasing timing.

Best described as User Headspace & Timing error.;)

lol, must be an army guy...

I really think I need to stop tuning until I can rehook up my EGT. My timing is awfully low but I'm still knocking, so I'm awfully worried my my cylinder pressure. I need to overcome my knocking so I can start increasing timing.In addition, I need to 'calibrate' my UTEC's knock sensing. I really have a feeling that my engine is just plain noisy. I'm following JBlaine's lead and trying to record through my TUNA.lol, must be an army guy...Guilty.:D

It's Mad Max time, Larry. M2, portable smoke grendade launchers & up armor on my danger-wagon.

Makes sense to me, I personally favor a HUD and a GAU-8 30mm chain gun, but have not figured out how to mount it on the ski rack, and I suspect it would really screw up my center of gravity height for cornering. Back to the drawing board. :D

I haven't worked with either of those so can't help you much with sorting out knock detection. Most reliable detector is reading the spark plugs but its a really big pain in the rear to do it over and over on the subie engine. First sign of det is little tiny specks of aluminum on the electrodes or black or purple specks on the ceramic. Thats from crap getting blown of the top of the piston or cylinder head by the detonation.

The bad news is it is after the fact evidence so pretty useless for real time detonation tuning.

I have no doubts you'll figure it out.

Larry

This thread is nearing a year old. I have only one thing to say in response to the original question --

DON'T DO IT!! YOU'LL BE STUCK IN THIS THREAD FOR ALMOST A YEAR BEFORE YOU GET IT TOGETHER!!!!

:Dhey pat, i wanted to point out at this point that it might be a bad idea to swap pistons on your own, at least if you want the car back on the road in less than say, 14 months.

:devil:

yes, i am busting your balls a smidgen... not any less proud and a bit jealous of you though! :)For posterity.:lol::D

Makes sense to me, I personally favor a HUD and a GAU-8 30mm chain gun, but have not figured out how to mount it on the ski rack, and I suspect it would really screw up my center of gravity height for cornering. Back to the drawing board. :D

I haven't worked with either of those so can't help you much with sorting out knock detection. Most reliable detector is reading the spark plugs but its a really big pain in the rear to do it over and over on the subie engine. First sign of det is little tiny specks of aluminum on the electrodes or black or purple specks on the ceramic. Thats from crap getting blown of the top of the piston or cylinder head by the detonation.

The bad news is it is after the fact evidence so pretty useless for real time detonation tuning.

I have no doubts you'll figure it out.

LarryI've got some old HUMV springs that I could swap onto my Flex struts.;) However, I decided on foregoing the .50 and am going with
a 90mm recoilless.

Isn't it always the obvious? My intent this Sunday was to pull the coilpacks and do a comptest. However, my wife had other stuff in mind. However, I did realize that I left my plugged factory boost controller hose unattached from anything...hence the uncontrollable boost.

I've parked it until I get stuff worked off to where I think it's solid. I'm dreading it, but I've got to find & fix a small oil leak which means I'm going to have to pull the rad, t-belt, and at least the pass side campulleys.

A knowledgeable friend of mine brought up a good point.:mad: My suspicion is that the cam seal on the pass side intake side is where the leak is coming from. That's the same cam gear that shattered, though.:furious: Very like A+B=C if you know what I mean. I don't know if I want to know the truth.

Of course if that leak is somehow due to damage to the intake cam and/or the bearing, I may end up living with a minor leak for a while.

Chances are I won't get to it until the wknd.

A little blow-by moisture leaking from where I didn't have the catchcan hoses clamped tight enough. No real problem.

However, pass. side timing belt cover has a coating of oil underneath it. I may have damaged something afterall with my little shenanigan. Pulling of timing belt cover tonight. Not feeling too good about it. Most likely scenario is that the cam seal is slightly deformed and a replacement fixes it. Best case scenario...well, I can't think of anything of less impact than that. Maybe valve cover gasket still isn't sealing.

Question. I ceramic coated my Fujitsubo header. It's obviously a thin metal, which I wouldn't have the first guess what it's made of.

If I tapped it and put an egt bung in #4, would it completely destroy the temperature management capabilities of the ceramic, or just local to the tapped hole?

Since I'm not dealing with thick iron, would simply drilling and tapping still be an approved solution or would welding be the only route?

Thanks

Check to see if the header is magnetic (just grab a refrigerator magnet and see if it sticks) most stainless steels are NOT magnetic to any degree. Mild steel headers will definitely be magnetic.

They make clamp on EGT probs where you simply drill a small hole and then clamp the probe onto the pipe. I have not used one so will not comment on how reliable they are.

Installing the bung would only change thermal managment locally, so not a big worry.

Welding would be the best if you want to go throught he hassle but the clamp on style most likely is the quickest solution.

Larry

Check to see if the header is magnetic (just grab a refrigerator magnet and see if it sticks) most stainless steels are NOT magnetic to any degree.

That's not entirely accurate. Although austenitic grades are generally regarded as essentially non-magnetic, grades such as 304/321/347 become slightly magnetic when cold worked. (IE: mandrel bent) However, he effect is quite small, so the magnet trick should still work as I doubt a household magnet would be strong enough to exert a noticable force. :)

http://www.matweb.com/search/SpecificMaterial.asp?bassnum=MQ304A

As a side note, 409 is a common stainless steel used in factory exhausts. It is ferritic, and thus magnetic, it develops surface rust like mild steel but it does not develop corrosive rust and is technically still stainless. It's also somewhat difficult to weld and brittle, when compared to austenitic grades.

-Adrian

I thought that ceramic coatings are very hard to drill through. Is that correct? Presumably you only coated the outside. If you coated inside too you might have a risk of material flaking off if you drill through it.

Installing the bung would only change thermal managment locally, so not a big worry.

Welding would be the best if you want to go throught he hassle but the clamp on style most likely is the quickest solution.

LarryThanks Larry. I feel like I'm tuninig blind without it.

But thoughtto brings up a very good point. I don't really recall, but I think it's inside and out. Pic would indicate that. Picture link (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/heads_header/coated.header.jpg)

Thanks

Not so happy update: center diff just puked all over the highway last night. I haven't had a chance to look at anything yet. Very unhappy.

Not so happy update: center diff just puked all over the highway last night. I haven't had a chance to look at anything yet. Very unhappy.
I think I'll be having the same problem when I get mine running again. So are you going to do? Put a stock one in and let it break again. Upgrade the center only and have the front and rear diffs break. Or do all three and spend close to $3000 (depending on band).

How do you mean it puked on the road? Parts falling out or fluid or both? Was it loud?

How do you mean it puked on the road? Parts falling out or fluid or both? Was it loud?Todd, just fluid. I got it towed home last night at about 1130 and had to be at work at 0630, so I haven't had a chance to look at it.

Again, I'm suspicious of myself. Maybe I haven't checked my center diff fluid level recently enough. I haven't touched it with regards to when I did the swap, so nothing's been tampered with. I'll take a closer look at it tonight.

Thanks

I think I'll be having the same problem when I get mine running again. So are you going to do? Put a stock one in and let it break again. Upgrade the center only and have the front and rear diffs break. Or do all three and spend close to $3000 (depending on band).Hard to say. I don't have a solid feel for the extent of damage, or even what I might have done to F it up. I already spent ~$3.8k on the 6mt, so the thought of another $3k isn't exactly appealing. As a matter of fact, the thought of selling the car at a huge loss has more appeal than that.:)

I'm pulling it into the garage now. We'll see how she looks. A friend of mine has rebuilt an oem US WRX 5mt using RA gears, so he just may be my saving grace. Don't know if he's got experience with differentials, but it would seem to me that repairing the center diff would be tremendously easier than a trans. Possibly just ring gear and seal(s). We'll see.

I forgot you have the 6mt. You'll come out alot cheaper because you can just get a new center diff. A new one should last along time.

Here's the culprit. PIC (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/Generic_Cars/Subaru/models/diff.leak.1.sm.jpg)<--drain plug came out. Bone dry trans & c. diff.

My gut tells me that many moons ago, my lack of attn to detail has come back to bite me in the butt and could have cost me some ducets. I'm going to the dealership tomorrow and see if they have any.