Needless to say, I've never done it before.

I want to put in some CP's and stainless or chromoly rings.

I'll have a machine shop score my cylinder walls...or could I effectively do that myself as well?

time, manuals, the RIGHT tools and someone that has done this more than 10 times by your side will be a winning combination to doing it right.

that said, if you have an engine stand and everything else above, then go for it!

if you're missing one of these things, don't bother

If you can find somebody thats done it before, it makes life easier.... You just need the right tools, and the knowledge involved. Ring compressor.... a 14mm allen wrench for the wristpin plugs... an impact screwdriver to take off the rear cover on the block.... a way of pulling the existing wristpins out (you take the clips off, but then you STILL generally gotta either tap them out with a long screwdriver or have some way of pulling them out).... beyond that, if you've pulled your heads off before, you can do this.

Make sure when you get the pistons to have the bores measured (have a shop hone the bores and measure them for you at the same time) and measure the pistons. Take your time, double check your work, and you'll be fine.

If you're doing this, you might want to consider your clutch and anything else that you might be interested in doing, ie cams etc... this is your golden opportunity to rebuild it just the way you want to, and you might as well get it all done at once.

you don't need a clean room to do this in?

Well, I swept my garage... does that count? :)

(no, just keep everything clean, wipe everything off before you put it together and use lots of assembly lube)

Thanks. I'll more than likely be doing this over the course of a month or months due to demands from my job.

You'll most likely see a whole lot of 'dumb question' posts coming from me.

Thanks for the input.

I know how to do it... :)

Hey yeah. And you're in Saint Louie, aren't you.;)

I'm headed out to price hoists now.

Engine out first!

Not sure if there are any extra plumbing things that need removing on the latest cars, but on a classic shape it goes something like this:


Get the car somewhere where you can get the engine hoist on, preferably flat ground.

Remove your bonnet stay completely, and you should find it fits on the small tab on the passenger side suspension tower, and goes to a second slot on the bonnet, and holds the bonnet vertically, you don't need to remove the bonnet!

Remove battery, washer bottle, airbox, TMIC, MAF etc.
Undo hoses to inlet manifold
Drain oil
Drain coolant
Undo heater matrix hoses from engine.
Undo earth connections to block (if any)
unplug engine loom from multiplugs (near battery)
Undo any remaining electrical connections (ie those I don't remember or gauges etc)
Remove downpipe, or at least undo and leave loose in place.
Unplug fans
Remove coolant radiator.
Loosen PS hoses from engine/manifold
Remove PS pump and put to one side still plumbed in (this may be different with remote res cars)
Remove Aircon pump entirely, tie back on a cushion of some sort, be careful not to kink hoses.
Put in 4th gear, and use breaker bar to loosen crank pulley nut (this step is optional, can be useful to do it now).
Remove pitch stop mount
Remove starter and either tie back or remove leads.
Undo clutch fork pivot access plug on side of g/box
Remove clutch fork pivto bt threading in a longish m6 bolt (it should pull out, if it doesn't use a long bolt with spacers/washers to jack it out against the box)
Pull clutch fork up and out of release bearing (don't worrk too much)
Loosen all block bolts and remove, 14mm ratch ring spanner is ideal here, also be ready with 3/8 drive 14mm socket and U/J for the bottom ones which can be easier from under car.
Remove nuts holding engine mounts into subframe.

At this point put car on floor and back in neutral. Attach your hoist to the inlet manifold using rope (1/2" poly rope is fine) or a strop. Pick up on each side of the manifold roughly half way to get a reasonable balance.

You may find there is already a gap between box and block, in which case the next bit should be easy.

Pull up the engine with the hoist a little, basically enough to get the engine mount studs clear of the subframe. With luck you should be able to just pull the engine off the box, often it needs some rocking, and make sure you haven't pinched the heater coolant hoses between the pitch stop mount and bulkhead. If things are really stuck, then get out a cro-bar and start to prise the beast apart, althouh if you had the EN257 only a year ago I don't forsee any probs. Once partially apart, you should be able to slide the block all the way off the input shaft, keeping the engine as low as possible whilst still being able to move it.

Once clear of the box, up and out and into the garage to be transfered to a stand.

Before you get it on the stand, now may be a good time to remove the clutch cover and flyheel, with impact/air tools this is easy. However, if you have nether, then I would suggeset NOT loosening the crank pulley bolt while the engine is in the car. You can then use a 22mm socket to hole the crank while you loosen the clutch cover bolts. Once the cover is off, you can fix the crank position using a small length of plate with 2 holts between one of the holes on the block and a temporary bolt in flywheel. loosen the crank nut then the flywheel bolts.

With the flywheel off, get the engine on the stand ready for the actual job of swapping pistons. I or someone else can cover that later!

paul

(I may well have missed something, it's been at least a month since I took an engine out :D)

doh!

I just re read the thread title, you want talking out of it! Well, I made it sound easy so far! Oops!

The important thing is to measure your deck height clearances before you remove the old pistons if you're getting the block decked or to measure the new ones once there. Sometimes pistons need machining.

Most people don't do this when they put pistons in but most engine builders will.

Are the rings pre-gapped?

You also need to check piston->bore clearance dry with a feeler gauge, and ring end gap in bore, regardless.

And in terms of scoring the bore, you mean "glaze busting". You can either buy or rent the drill attachment to do it, but don't go overboard. You don't usually need to do this unless the block has a lot of miles on it.

The first rule of engine building is to assume everything is wrong, and you should measure everything to make sure it is right.

;) I was being facetious. I'm a little bit intimidated, but once I make up my mind, it's getting done. Damn, dude. I need to fly you up here to Indiana.:D Thanks.

Now, I'm not too worried about pulling the engine, but I just got off the phone with Quirt Crawford and he makes the task of pulling out the wrist pins sound like a bear (unless I've got Subaru tool #xxx.)

Anyhow, where I'm at right now. I am going to try and rent a hoist tomorrow. I have drained the oil (although I just changed it) and the coolant. The battery, WW fluid tank, and coolant overflow are all off. I'm buying CP pistons that are designed for lower compression from Crawford and most likely STi rings.

I'm also researching the cost:benefit of o-ringing the cylinders. Glenn, I'd love to fill in some of the gap of the water jackets, but imagine that that would be awfully expensive. When you say that pistons need machining, do you mean deburred and such or or do you mean rechecking claimed specs and then machining any inconsistencies?

Thanks and thanks.

Glenn, I'd love to fill in some of the gap of the water jackets, but imagine that that would be awfully expensive. When you say that pistons need machining, do you mean deburred and such or or do you mean rechecking claimed specs and then machining any inconsistencies?


Dunno what you mean about the water jacket.

Typically the ring manufacturer will either say the rings are pre-gapped or supply gap measurement (failing that rely on shop manual). You measure in the gap of the ring with a feeler gauge while it is sitting in the cylinder bore. Pretty easy to do. Some rings require special gappers to avoid chipping the finish, most likely if you buy high end rings they are pre-gapped for the specific bore size.

Some pistons (and this depends on the piston and motor) will need their deck height machined (height from center of pin to top of piston). Some pistons are designed this way, so you can pick your own compression ratio, but even ones that are an "OE" like fit sometimes will sit proud of the block (if it has been decked before). Again, go by what comes with the pistons and rings, or by default check the shop manual.

Pretty much anyone can install a set of pistons in an engine correctly, but the fit/measurements etc can be critical.

On my last engine (non Subaru) I had all of the machining/fitting done at a shop and did the assembly myself.

Glenn

I was referring to the area where the red arrows are. I'm I makin' stuff up.;)

http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Engine/voila1.jpg

Yeah, I am leaning towards having the machining & such done by a local machine shop and I'll be damned if I pay some install shop $70/hr for something I can frack up myself.;)

You can take the wrist pins out without the special tool... you just need a long screwdriver. Instead of pulling the wristpins out, you push them through the backside. Just make sure you're tapping on the wristpin and not the spring retainers when you do that :)

Get STi rings - they are pregapped for the STi bores. Of course, put them in the bore and double check that out anyway, but it should be just fine.

new pistons and no Sleeves ?? should be it when you have the motor off

http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/04662/00904662000-190.jpg
&
http://store1.yimg.com/I/cvfsupplyco-store_1809_10298393
:)

I'm going to research sleeving, but I'm anticipating that that will be too too expensive.

edit: And I'm most likely going with the STi rings, but it seems as though most of the 257 problems I read about on here are stock ring-related.

Know any chromoly or stainless (are those the same thing) rings that folks have had luck with wrt exacting tolerances and strength?

As mentioned above, assume everything is wrong and double check every spec and measurement. Even if your piston rings are "pre-gapped" double check them. Most any "How to rebuild your Ford/Chevy/Dodge engine" book at the book store will give you detailed instructions on the basic processes. You simply push the ring down in the bore and position it so it is square with the cylinder, and measure the end gap with a feeler gauge. A too tight ring end gap will be a fatal error, as the ring ends will butt up solid at high engine temps and sieze in the bore, sometimes ripping the top of the piston off, always doing bad things to the ring, piston, and bore surface.

If your replacing pistons, --- are the new pistons the same weight as the old? If they are different weights, you either need to, trim the new pistons to weigh the same as the old pistons they replace, or have the engine rebalanced. That would involve taking the pistons, ring sets, connecting rods and crankshaft to an engine shop so they can get all the weights and do the balance job.

My preference would be to do the balance if you can. I've heard subaru does not always balance the cranks to the precision high performance demands. I had my Chrysler hemi, precision balanced when I built it years ago, and it was such a sweet running engine. You couldn't believe how much smoother it ran. It may not make a lot of additional power, but it will make a big difference in how smoothly the engine runs and rev's and is not all that expensive other than the time involved to get the work done. It might also improve the reliability of knock detection.

If you do choose to do the balance work, have the rods blue printed for length as well, that will give you uniform deck height and compression ratio from cylinder to cylinder.

Larry

Larry, I'm reading at:
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1557882452.01._PIdp-schmooS,TopRight,7,-26_PE32_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg:)

The book says that there are 3 types of ring compressors. It doesn't look like any of them will break the bank. It says I should also get a ring expander as well.


http://www.crawfordperformance.com/images/products/sti_am_pistons_small.jpg
These are the pistons I'm getting. Quirt says that they are designed for lower compression, although I'm getting way in over my head when it comes to measuring combustion chamber cc's, quench area, and piston dome (I had to pay my wife to type those big words for me.;)) Anyhow, I believe that these are direct replacement, although obviously not OEM. I'm anticipating that they will be spec'd the same, except for the dome. I'll make sure and weigh them, though.

Additionally, when I spoke with Quirt, he says it's impossible to know which heads that I have without measuring them. Doesn't that take wax to fill in the top of the cc? He says that mine would most likely be 49 or 51cc's with 51 being most beneficial.

It's becoming apparent that compression ratio is a much harder concept for me than I thought. Higher = the need for higher octane, but more potential for power. Lower, obviously opposite. I don't know which head gasket I need to shop for.

To be honest, there are many factors which all play an important part in figuring which compression ratio is best for me, and to be honest, all I know is what I want from my car.

For example, are these the same deciding factors which determine where you might want your max torque vs max hp? (ie. building torque at mid rpm at the sacrifice of hp at top end?) I know I'm rambling, but the brain just doesn't want to accept all of the information I'm throwing at it right now.:D

Anyhow, this is an awesome thread. I'm going to print it out, highlight key points and take them to the local machine shop. I know that this ain't a cheap hobby, but I'm guessing that balancing my crank, checking deck warpage...

I plan on using the stock rods, crank and bearing. By blueprinting, I don't understand what you mean. I'm Only anticipating buying the pistons and rings, new ARP head studs, and new HG (although which, I don't know yet), and those named tools, among others.

Thanks for the response.

cc'ing the heads is pretty simple in theory. Just takes a bit of time, and attention to detail.

1. clean head and place it on a surface so it is completely stable and the gasket surface (facing up) is level both left to right and front to back has a very slight tilt (this helps get air out of the chamber later).

2. install a junk spark plug of the same type as you intend to use in the spark plug hole.
3. smear some vaseline or light grease on the valve seats and drop good valves in each valve guide and push them down so they squeeze the grease out. (this creates a liquid tight seal) carefully wipe off any excess.

4 smear some vaseline or light grease on the gasket surface of the head and put a flat piece of plastic ( usually a 1/4 inch thick piece of plexiglass with a small hole drilled in it). This forms a flat top to the combustion chamber. Position the hole in the plexiglass on the high side of the chamber so the air bubbles will migrate toward the fill hole.

5. slowly dribble ATF (its red color makes it easy to see) into the combustion chamber through the hole from a container. If you don't have a burrett like the big boys do, Just use a long slender piece of large dia plastic tubing. Fill it with more fluid than you expect the combustion chamber to hold. (in this case maybe 100 cc off fluid).

Mark the fluid level in the tube with masking tape. (measure at the bottom of the menescus -- the surface of the fluid will be curved use the bottom of the curve as your reference point ).

Dribble the fluid into the combustion chamber until it is full and has no air bubbles, without spilling any. Mark the new fluid level. Now use a graduated container to determine how much fluid it takes to refill your tube to the same starting level.

A good place to get a graduated container is at a photography store that sells home developing supplies. Also in a University town you should be able to buy a "graduate" (lab glassware not a student) where students pickup supplies for chemistry class.
Medical supply places, and veternary offices may also have graduated large plastic syringes without needles that they use for some medical proceedures.


=============

blue print is a generic term used in performance engine building meaning you match similar dimensions of parts to a common length, size etc.

In the case of connecting rods, you can have a quality engine rebuild shop "blue print your rods for length" so the center to center distance between the big and small end are all identical. On engine assembly you can have dimension tolerance stack up errors give you significant variation in the true compression ratio cylinder to cylinder.

Suppose one crank shaft throw is indexed a degree or two off its proper position or the swing on that crank throw if 3 - 4 thousands of an inch longer than the rest. If that cylinder happens to get the longest rod and the tallest piston as well as the smallest combustion chamber. It might move the top of the piston 10 - 15 thousandts of an inch higher than the shortest combination in the engine. That cylinder will have a slightly higher compression ratio than the others and more prone to detonation.

By selective assembly you can cancel out dimension variation, by putting a short piston on the long con-rod etc.

This sort of attention to detail is how folks like Quirt get 1000 hp out of an engine and keep it together.

Larry

That is all goo stuff, but I would just go ahead and do a dummy build. You will probably find you have perfectly acceptable deck heights, and that all pistons are even. 3-4 though out on the stroke isn't going to make a massive difference to combustion, the effects will be less than we already have with differing flows between cylinders.

If you do CC the heads then I could advise 2 holes close to each other as the surface tension of the oil means that it's often difficult to get oil in and air out at the same time. I use a syringe to measure the fluid, although a burette is the correct tool.

You should probably be aiming for a thicker gasket anyway, as you have the WRX heads, and even if they are 49 or 51cc, they are still miles away from the Sti heads. You can use a 1.6mm (uncompressed) gasket which is sold for the N/A EJ25, it's genuine subaru and 4 layer steel construction. This is what I currently, and also a number of others with EJ257 blocks and EJ20 heads here in the UK.

Paul

Pulling the pistons is very easy. Putting it all back together generally is a little harder, but still easy. Quirt has CP make those pistons to be drop-in replacements for the EJ257 with the standard rods and crank, and he can supply rings as well, which I believe are just stock EJ257 piston rings. The rings aren't the problems persay on the EJ257, it's the ring landings. They have a tendency to chip off the piston. I've seen pictures of 10 failures at this point, including my own, and they are all the exact same thing in the exact same place.

Nah, Paul. I have what I believe to be v7 STi heads and cams sitting on my bench which will go on as I do this.

Thanks, DWX. I have been thinking that the machining (or those things I'm not capable of doing) will be to o-ring the cylinders and MAYBE a few other things, based on time and money.

oh, nice combo!

I would avoid trying to o-ring the block unless you can use a proper o-ring and coopers ring etc. The latest gaskets from Cometic also seem to be doing okay in oher engines I have heard of. Usual combo in UK is EJ20 heads (so that covers yours too) with the thicker EJ25 gasket, which appears to be the same construction as EJ257 with extra (4th) layer.

I wouldn't push the final CR over 8.5 if you want to run mostly on pump fuel, it's a useful increase over the factory CR though.

I'll get round to writing a piston swap thing, although I have some technical manual pages too (well the whole thing but it's big).

Paul

I'd just heard that the o-ring job is inexpensive insurance...if done right of course.

I'd most certainly like to be below 8.5:1. Quirt is assuring me that his pistons would do that for me. Stupid question, though... More cc's = less compression ratio or vice versa?

Dude, you've been tremendously helpful so far. A piston swap 'how-to' would be tremendously appreciated.

As a note. Right now, I'm in my 'planning' phase. I'm forced to take a good, hard look at everything in my life to justify and prioritize this swap. One way or another, it's getting done, but how I get to that point is what I'm deliberating.

Alrighty, I'm buying pistons and rings today.

Also, I would love to do this as well, but their quote took a little wind out of my sails. For $1500, a mod shop and Darton distributor said that they'd sleeve my block.

I know that the sleeves are around $400-600, but CAD machining for $1000? Wow.

Needless to say, I've never done it before.

I want to put in some CP's and stainless or chromoly rings.

I'll have a machine shop score my cylinder walls...or could I effectively do that myself as well?


It won't happen. Been there.

Rant: It's beyond belief that not one single ring manufacturer makes plasma moly rings for the USDM STi. :furious: My alternative is going to be custom pistons with a better ring pack to begin with.....spend $600 just so we can get rings that are worth a damn. :rolleyes:

Tapered Ring compressors (what I prefer over the std compressors most folks cuss at): not available. :rolleyes: I bought 2 in a 3.90 LS1 size, and a CNC programmer friend is machining them to EJ257 size. What a pain in the ass.

The way to do this right: I'm assuming this is a low-mileage engine. Get the pistons from Quirt. Have a machinist use a snap gauge, dial bore guage, and outside mics to ensure the piston to wall clearance is correct (.0035 to .004"). If it's more than .005", get your wallet out for oversize pistons, otherwise, it's gonna rattle like a diesel. Speak to your entrusted machinist about the finish on the cylinder walls if you using oversized pistons; usually Chrome plated compression rings require a sub 300 finish. Good luck. :)

Oh. Forgot something: IMO, the ring gap spec'd by Subaru is too close for making the power we strive for. Measure it in your bore with the ring square, and talk to your machinist about what gap he'd use. Breaking the stock piston ring lands may be related to ring gap, as well. ;)

Ok. All noted.

I don't personally know the machinist yet, but I found an import-oriented tuner (rotary-cum-EJ) in my town who habitually uses a particular machinist. I've got a pretty good feeling about the tuner/mechanic, and hopefully he'll introduce me to his machinist.

What do you think about the $1500 for sleeves?

This thread is what this site was based on. I really like the topic and am learning something instead of feeling dumber after reading stuff. Keep it up and I will keep reading! Thanks for the no BS thread and straight facts!

Ok. All noted.

I don't personally know the machinist yet, but I found an import-oriented tuner (rotary-cum-EJ) in my town who habitually uses a particular machinist. I've got a pretty good feeling about the tuner/mechanic, and hopefully he'll introduce me to his machinist.

What do you think about the $1500 for sleeves?
Just make sure they are wet replaceable sleeves.

Alrighty, I'm buying pistons and rings today.

Also, I would love to do this as well, but their quote took a little wind out of my sails. For $1500, a mod shop and Darton distributor said that they'd sleeve my block.

I know that the sleeves are around $400-600, but CAD machining for $1000? Wow.

I know the machine shop that I used to frequent didnt "love" to sleeve the Subaru motors... It was VERY labor intensive.

Dont want to bargain shop your motor needs! :)

-Mike

well said Mike but boy is 1500 a lot of money for some sleeves.

Don't want to bargain shop your motor needs! :)

-Mike

Best advice I've heard all day. :)

If you are cheap like myself, barter and beg, but DO NOT skimp by using a shoddy machinist.

I've never sleeved a EJ, but it looks like a LOT of work, and $1500 sounds pretty cheap, considering the sleeves are probably $600 of that.

BTW...gpatmac, why are you mulling over sleeving the block? Have you fallen prey to the "the EJ257 cylinder walls are too thin" post? Don't believe the hype. :) Ask around, you'll find the truth.

IMO, Unless you are going to build a "big" engine, don't sleeve it. Waste of money.

1500 dollars could be much better spent in other areas esp if you arent gonna run high boost for long periods of time like nathan did.

Needless to say, I've never done it before.

I want to put in some CP's and stainless or chromoly rings.

I'll have a machine shop score my cylinder walls...or could I effectively do that myself as well?

http://www.okgpc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=699

sort of not aplicable but this dude did cams and what not, but within 15min of a 'reduild' he was searching for a new shortblock...

it's stories like this that keep me out of engines.. :lol:

http://www.okgpc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=699

sort of not aplicable but this dude did cams and what not, but within 15min of a 'reduild' he was searching for a new shortblock...

it's stories like this that keep me out of engines.. :lol:
:lol:

untill then ill be rollin the mighty tortise..

Make sure you have another way to get to work for a while.

Yeah, I've fallen prey, I guess. On the one hand, I know that the EJ series are all the same block, save for differing reinforcements of the cylinder walls. On the other hand, I've always felt that before the Ej257 became available, I, being a thorough NASIOC reader, had never heard of stock sleeve failure although many, many, many have always cited the weaknesses of the 'open deck'.

I was just doing an exploratory cost/benefit...part of which in this thread.

I'm not going into my engine by choice. It's always been something to fantasize about, but something I'd probably never have done unless my internals broke.

Don't sleeve it.

Gap rings to about 22 thou, 24 thou if you're going to run N20.

The EJ257 block isn't open deck, semi closed is probably the closest description.

Feeler gauges can measure the bore clearances.

Check your block to see if you have A or B pistons, and give those details to Quirt when you get the pistons, he can perhaps measure some pistons to give you a better start.

I wouldn't use a 4thou clearance. I started with that in my own engine, and regret it, now it's done 7000 miles, it's a little on the noisey side. I think 3.5thou is more appropriate. I know the piston manufacturers will say 1 thou per inch of bore diameter, but is that with an alloy or iron block?

Paul

Haven't put much thought into N20, but haven't ruled it out.

Thanks for the info. Once again, noted.:)

What's the easiest way to get the pistons out without splitting the block?

Iirc subaru has a tool for this...

dwx,

You have to remove the pistons before splitting the block! Edit: I see what you mean now, as apposed to removing the pins and splitting the block to get the pistons out the bores. See below for a method of removal.

If the pistons are relatively new, you can use a Rawlbolt or Rawlplug type fixing to pull the pins out. They can be tricky though as the pin retaining clip (circlip, ear clip or similar) can burr the groove which prevents the pin from sliding out easily. As has been mentioned a long thin rod, about 1/4" diameter with the end still square but deburred. By putting it through the back of the block you can get the front pins out and vice-versa, you need to offset the crank from BDC a little to get the rod to one side of the pin access hole.

Once the pin is out, rotate the crank gently to push the piston up as far as it goes. Then push the piston down back into the bore, twisting it as you go, then you should be able to push out out so the rings clear the deck. After the 1st piston is done, it pays to put a small piece of cloth round the small end of the rod to prevent it damaging the bore as you rotate the crank (repeat for subsequent rods or just be careful).

Paul

Okay that's what I figured, I have taken the block apart before, and made a tool to take the piston pins out.

I think Subaru generally recommends just splitting the block to get the pistons out. Their recommended tool after doing so is a wooden handle.

I dont think they use a wooden handle for anything...

FWIW subaru pistons can be replaced without cracking the block apart. The heads need to come off, and then the pistons/wristpins can be removed using a special tool. I've been able to borrow the tool in the past and could probably do so again if you guys get stuck in a tight spot.

Fitz
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664892






25) Rotate the crankshaft to bring #1 and #2 pistons
to bottom dead center position, then remove
the piston circlip through service hole of #1 and #2 cylinders.

26) Draw out the piston pin from #1 and #2 pistons using ST.
ST 499097700 PISTON PIN REMOVER

27) Similarly remove the piston pins from #3 and #4
using ST.
ST 499097700 PISTON PIN REMOVER
CAUTION:
Be careful not to confuse the original combination
of piston, piston pin and cylinder.
I I
pistons.
28) Remove the bolts which connect cylinder block
on the side of #2 and #4 cylinders.

29) Back off the bolts which connect cylinder block
on the side of #1 and #3 cylinders two or three
turns.

30) Set up the cylinder block so that #1 and #3 cylinders
are on the upper side, then remove the cylinder
block connecting bolts.
31 ) Separate the left-hand and right-hand cylinder
blocks.
CAUTION:
When separating the cylinder block, do not allow
the connecting rod to fall and damage the
cylinder block.

You didn't read far enough, go to step 35. I said piston, not pin. The pins are easy to get out a variety of ways, you could never fit a hammer handle in there. :D

I have used the long rod route for removing pistons, but I found twisting them in the bore and pushing out with conrod much easier.

Paul

35) Draw out each piston from cylinder block using
a wooden bar or hammer handle.

:lol:

Doh!

I have used the long rod route for removing pistons, but I found twisting them in the bore and pushing out with conrod much easier.

Paul

I use a device made for picking up radiology phantoms (acrylic) made by Relda. Bring the piston to TDC, affix the "sucker" to the top of the bore, close the vacuum lever, and Voila! Out comes the piston.

If you have all of the tools... You can come to St Louis and I will help you.

I used to be able to do it pretty quickly.

:)

-Mike

I've got these (If I can't make it to Saint Louie)

http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/manuals.jpg

:lol:

Doh!

That assumes you have already split the block though. I also did mine without removing the sump, but I can't recommend it as it's a paint to put the pins back in with sump in place.

paul

One and Three:
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/one.and.three.jpg
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/OneandThree.jpgTwo and Four:
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/two.and.four.jpg
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/TwoandFour.jpgThe suspect, Four.
http://gpatmac.com/SubaruPics/New_Engine/new_piston/four.jpg
The only thing suspect so far is that four had quite a bit of oil in the cylinder. There's quite a bit of carbon, but that's no different than the other 3. The cylinder wall looks fine to my eye.

Tomorrow, I'll go get a 14mm hex and pull them out.

That looks like a bit more oil that I would want to see in the cylinder. (assuming it didn't get in there while the heads were being pulled). Detonation damage seems from what I have noted in other engines to occur at the 1:00/11:00 position on the top of the piston, near the intake valves. A close look there on the #4 might show some ring land damage. If not then perhaps a cracked ring.

Good luck with the project.

Larry

WHEN ITS COMES TO AN ENGINE DO IT RIGHT THE 1ST TIME!

Will save you from doing it again or even damageing your engine worse and causing more $$$$$.

If you are going to the trouble replacing you pistons. I would also do aftermarket rods and rings.

From what I have heard the pistons are usually the last problem, rings (1st) & rods (2nd).

I mean you are already in there I wouldn't cut the build short and halfass it.

Matt

That looks like a bit more oil that I would want to see in the cylinder. (assuming it didn't get in there while the heads were being pulled). Detonation damage seems from what I have noted in other engines to occur at the 1:00/11:00 position on the top of the piston, near the intake valves. A close look there on the #4 might show some ring land damage. If not then perhaps a cracked ring.

Good luck with the project.

Larry
Thanks Larry.

I'll report back later today after I get them out.

Go with a different rod stroke ratio as well. You'll pick up more TQ and HP as well.

I need to have a cranial-rectalostomy.

The block is on the engine stand, sans heads. I didn't take the flywheel off because I didn't understand the need. Now it's fairly clear.;) The crank pulley is off, obviously. But that leads me to my question. How do I manipulate the crank so that I can get access to the circlip?

Since I can't find a 14mm hex (neither socket nor elbow) I made a 'tool' with a 14mm bolt and nut w/ spacer. I got one service plug off, but will need to restart my search for a 14mm socket tomorrow.

I realized, though, when I was looking in the service hole that I obviously can't get to the clip without moving the piston.

How do I move the pistons? :o :confused:

by turning the crank with a wrench maybe :huh: :lol:

seriously, put the crank pully bolt back in, and turn it - you might need to use an air gun to get it back off, but no biggy

I would use this type of ring compressor:
http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/19200/19126.JPG
If you change rods you'll have to remeasure and possibly change out the rod bearings.

You really should be able to use the pulley without a bolt to turn it by hand, unless something is pretty screwed up.

What is that in the top area of 2/4, oil or coolant? Even if you've flipped the motor over, it's still an odd spot to have fluids unless there was a pretty good gasket leak.

Thanks a bunch.

With just trying to turn it with my hands turning the crank pulley sprocket, something seems stuck. I'll try it again.

I don't plan on swapping the rods.

What is that in the top area of 2/4, oil or coolant?

That was oil.

I'm beginning to think that maybe the ringlands and the headgasket are fine and it was just that the rings never fully seated.

gpatmac were you one of the few that went to synthetic early on in your engines life? I switched over to mobile 1 synth after the 1st change and after losing over 1 qt/1K miles over the summer I scaled back to a synthblend and oil consumption has dramatically reduced. If youve previsouly posted Im sorry.

After the swap, I went 3k miles on dino before I went synthetic.

I usually just put on a pair of workgloves and you can turn the crank by hand. If you let it sit awhile you are more likely going to need a little more effort to get it moving again.

Mine looked great until I took the #4 piston out and the ring land sorta fell out of the piston...

The rings are generally fine, it's the lands that break.

I'm beginning to think that maybe the ringlands and the headgasket are fine and it was just that the rings never fully seated.

I doubt its the rings not being seated, that looks a lot like a blown ring landings to me.

It sucks to only have like 20-60 min a day to work on it.

I was able to find a 14mm hex wrench, though.

Hopefully tonight I'll be able to report on the state of the piston and the cylinder walls.

20-60 minutes a day? Man, you're sleeping too much! :D

bump for reports.

Got 2x circlips off, but I'm back at the puter looking for my thread where Pavlo is describing it. I can't get the sleeve out.

http://www.okgpc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=699

sort of not aplicable but this dude did cams and what not, but within 15min of a 'reduild' he was searching for a new shortblock...

it's stories like this that keep me out of engines.. :lol:
I'm very interested in reading this, but seems as though the site is down. Anyone have the cliff notes?

It won't happen. Been there.

Rant: It's beyond belief that not one single ring manufacturer makes plasma moly rings for the USDM STi. :furious: My alternative is going to be custom pistons with a better ring pack to begin with.....spend $600 just so we can get rings that are worth a damn. :rolleyes:



I know you posted this a while a ago so you may know Wiseco now has coated forged pistons with plasma moly rings available for the ej25, I have a set on order for my car that will go in within the next couple months:)

I'm done for the night. I stripped one of the screws for the access plate ivo #4 and I REALLY wanted to see that one. I'm shelving it until tomorrow night.

Pistons 1 and 2 respectively
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/Pistons1and2.jpg

Piston 1
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/Piston1a.jpg
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/Piston1b.jpg

Piston 2
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/Piston2a.jpg
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/Piston2b.jpg

I'm beat.

Yeah, you absolutely HAVE to use an impact screwdriver to get those rear covers off. I've probably got a billion of those screws in a box if you're in need of a replacement.

I just might. Thanks.

Damn, I didn't realize you were in Schaumburg. I'd have stopped to see you when I picked up my RS a couple of wknds ago. We even hit up the Ikea.:)

I know you posted this a while a ago so you may know Wiseco now has coated forged pistons with plasma moly rings available for the ej25, I have a set on order for my car that will go in within the next couple months:)

Actually, what you'll end up with are a set of "stock spec" 1.25/1.25/2.0 mm rings that will seat well (if the finish on the bores is correct), but don't do well with alot of power. The oil control ring assy on the EJ257 is less than desireable, from a "big power" standpoint...Hence my ordering 1.5/1.5/2.5 rings and custom pistons ;)

But for the record, No, I didn't know. Thanks!

Actually, what you'll end up with are a set of "stock spec" 1.25/1.25/2.0 mm rings that will seat well (if the finish on the bores is correct), but don't do well with alot of power. The oil control ring assy on the EJ257 is less than desireable, from a "big power" standpoint...Hence my ordering 1.5/1.5/2.5 rings and custom pistons ;)

But for the record, No, I didn't know. Thanks!

umm, Im not sure what exactly you mean by this, Wiseco is selling stock Subaru rings and calling them something different or are you saying that Wiseco rings are just no better than stock? :confused:

umm, Im not sure what exactly you mean by this, Wiseco is selling stock Subaru rings and calling them something different or are you saying that Wiseco rings are just no better than stock? :confused:

I do not know what they are selling, but I'd wager that they are the STOCK SIZE rings, which in my opinion is no better than stock Subaru, other than the fact that they feature a plasma-moly coated Top ring. Subaru left alot of power on the table with the ring design.... ;) But hey....let's not get Glenn Wallace and Jon in CT stirred up....they work good in passenger car applications. :lol:

I wish I had the time....I'd also bet that a large number of the ring land issues that we've seen over the last 3 years have been related to ring design and gap than detonation due to poor tuning(though I'm sure that played a large part, as well). ;)

If I were going to make big power on a EJ257 with stock rings, I'd install a vacuum pump. Do a before / after dyno run...drive it, idle it, note the results
:D

If I were going to make big power on a EJ257 with stock rings, I'd install a vacuum pump. Do a before / after dyno run...drive it, idle it, note the results
:D

I know you've done this before on other applications, but how's it coming on your Subaru?

I do not know what they are selling, but I'd wager that they are the STOCK SIZE rings, which in my opinion is no better than stock Subaru, other than the fact that they feature a plasma-moly coated Top ring. Subaru left alot of power on the table with the ring design.... ;) But hey....let's not get Glenn Wallace and Jon in CT stirred up....they work good in passenger car applications. :lol:

I wish I had the time....I'd also bet that a large number of the ring land issues that we've seen over the last 3 years have been related to ring design and gap than detonation due to poor tuning(though I'm sure that played a large part, as well). ;)

If I were going to make big power on a EJ257 with stock rings, I'd install a vacuum pump. Do a before / after dyno run...drive it, idle it, note the results
:D

ah, I see, So its not so much their brand of ring, but the size of the stock ring you feel can be improved upon? What would you feel is a better design/size, I havent paid for these yet, i would like to know what the scoop is;)

Yeah, you absolutely HAVE to use an impact screwdriver to get those rear covers off. I've probably got a billion of those screws in a box if you're in need of a replacement.
Well, I already know I need one.:(

I can't believe I'm getting stopped by this. I think I'll be shopping for an air compressor this weekend.

You don't need air tools, you need this:

http://content.sears.com/data/product_images/009/47641/00947641000-190.jpg

Go to sears.com and search for impact driver, its the first one on the list.

$24.99

Gpatmac, send your block to Benson Performance and Machine in Santa Ana, California. Talk to Dan Benson @ (714)241-1284. Leave a message he doesn't answer his phone since he's a one man show but always returns his phone calls at least twice a day. He has done Subie blocks before. Dan is a meticulous perfectionist. He'll resleeve them to your spec, factory or oversized using Darton ductile iron sleeves. He believes in emulating the factory configuration such as, if it comes from the factory open deck he'll sleeve them open deck, semi closed then it will be semi closed. Then he'll recommend a step deck instead of copper o-ring seal at the top of the cylinders due to creating a larger sealing foot print. Last I talked to Dan his price was $900, including balancing, polishing the crank and step decking the block. Since then he just got a kick ass cnc machine for $125k. He has been featured in Turbo magazine in colaboration with Crower on a motor building article. He's got alot of his blocks being used in the import NHRA scene. Before the cnc machine his turn arount time was 2 weeks, did my block and assembled it in 1 though. So production should be alot faster. I talked to Clark at Kingpin a week or so ago and said he was a reputable machinist. Clark recommended having dual oil galleys machined into the block, just passing on advice if your doing a high hp setup. Tell him Ron sent you, he sleeved and assembled a b18a1 block for me.
Here's a pic of my b18a1 block:
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/users/40cf52ca_18486/360e/__sr_/95cb.jpg?phieM.BB3eGgGvKP

Ron, I genuinely appreciate your advice and the time you're taking to write it, but I can't afford $900 (well, maybe as long as I'm taking to do this, I could put aside $100 a month;))

On what are you basing the need for sleeving? As of right now, I am of the mind that the rings and maybe the pistons are the 'weak link'.

Darth, now that you post that...I've got one.:o Now I've got to find it.

Yeah, I used one of those hammer impacts, too. Hammer it in, then let it out and use the hammer-turn function.

If that doesn't work and you want to break the cover off (I've had to do it before) I've got plenty of the smaller covers in metal, though only have the larger ones in plastic. Supposedly the plastic ones leaked more, but it looked pretty even to me as I was taking them all apart.

I know you've done this before on other applications, but how's it coming on your Subaru?


Still waiting on pistons, for God's sake. :rolleyes:

What would you feel is a better design/size, I havent paid for these yet, i would like to know what the scoop is;)

I've already shared it.....

"my ordering 1.5/1.5/2.5 rings and custom pistons"

Plasma-moly top and low tension 2.5mm oil ;)

Found the culprit. #4 has a couple of hairline cracks.

http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/4_b.jpg

Rings look fine, however I was always taught with my M16/M4 rifle that the gas rings on the bolt were supposed to be offset. You'll notice that the rings on #4 (the only piston that doesn't have the rings offset) are in-line.

Here's the cylinder walls (it's about the best pic I could take.)
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/4_a1.jpg

Making that phone call to Quirt tomorrow.

Here are some other pics (mostly the same thing.)
4_a (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/4_a.jpg), 4_a2 (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/4_a2.jpg), 4_c (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/4_c.jpg), 4_d (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/4_d.jpg), 4_e (http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/4_e.jpg)

Yep...that'll do it. So for it being your first dissasembly, how would you rate its difficulty?

Well, I'm not going to lie, the bulk of my anxiety is towards the reassembly.:) I swapped the block in before...well, I helped my buddy, but I felt pretty confident about getting the engine out and getting the ancilliary parts off of the outside, so the main anxiety was in actually taking the circlips and pins then pistons out and not hurting anything. [THAT WAS A MAJOR RUN-ON]

Anyhow, now that I've done that part, I realize that it wasn't that difficult.

The reassembly/reinstall will definitely be more difficult.

Just make sure when you split the block, you mark every bearing, and where it came from. Take lots of pictures, pay attention to which bolts came from which location, etc... there are also a few o-rings inside the block when you split it as well, pay attention to those of course.

And remember.... if a subaru tech at a dealership is smart enough to do it, you are too :lol:

SPLIT THE BLOCK???:D

I don't intend to swap out anything but the pistons and rings. Is there something I don't realize?

I've already shared it.....

"my ordering 1.5/1.5/2.5 rings and custom pistons"

Plasma-moly top and low tension 2.5mm oil ;)

Sorry Steve, That ring package will not fit on the piston without compromising the integrity of the ringlands.

It was worth a try though :)

Quirt

SPLIT THE BLOCK???:D

I don't intend to swap out anything but the pistons and rings. Is there something I don't realize?

You cant get the pistons back in without splitting the block!

Well, you can put pistons in without cracking the block (I've done it once and seen it done a couple more times).... but you aren't going to get it honed by any shop without splitting it first, and you definitely want to get the bores at least honed, if not bored a bit (especially if they are out of round).

You've just barely scratched the surface of the fun part man! :lol:

Ha ha ha.:(

Quirt, the cylinder walls look fine, but if/when:( I go to have them honed, will that necessarily lead to needing larger diameter pistons?

Ha ha ha.:(

Quirt, the cylinder walls look fine, but if/when:( I go to have them honed, will that necessarily lead to needing larger diameter pistons?


Just doing a little fishing to see if you would bite,,,,, maybe next time :)


On the serious side, Check for out of roundness. If they are out of round, you will need to have them honed and go with an oversized piston/ring.

I did a repair that was the same as yours last week. The bores were fine so I just tossed in a new set of pistons and rings.

Good luck :)

Quirt

....uh, so you're saying that I wouldn't have to split the block?;)

What would be the easiest but most efficient way to do this with the most probability for everything being correct?:D

I mean, if splitting it is the most common-sense approach, so be it.

If your bores are within tolerance, you will not have to split the block.
The only reason at this point to split the block would be to over bore the cylinders.

From looking at your skirts, I would venture to say that your bores are fine :)

Quirt

:D

I'll call tomorrow.

Oh wait. I need to get a 'bore measuring tool' first.;)

Quirt (or anyone),

What do you think about my theory about the two compression rings and oil rings gaps all in alignment being the cause of the crack?

Also, I need to point out to everyone that this engine doesn't have much more than 3k miles on it.:huh: Also, I may have noted before, but neither the UTEC nor the Tuna picked up any more knock than normal, I never 'drove through' the knock as I usually immediately stopped to tune it out. Also, EGTs never got above 1600. Actually rarely ever got near 1600.

FWIW, I did have a rich/misfire problem, though.

The rings move around on their own, from what I understand, but you are correct that they should be installed staggered (I did all mine 120° off and for the whole 3 running weeks the motor lasted, it worked great).

Exactly WHERE were you seeing 1600°? I would venture to say you've got to run it even cooler than that. Once I grasped the concept of tuning, I tried to never run my car above 1550°, probe 4" out of the #4 head. Prior to that, I will admit to seeing around 1800°, though it didn't matter much as I had cracked the crown off the night I turbo'd my car... just drove it broken for another month before the ring broke and screwed stuff up.

Well, that's what I'm saying...or meant. I've seen 1550, but not 1600. As a matter of fact, I saw 1600 periodically with my 2.0 block, but ironically when I installed this block, my EGTs seemed to decrease. Of course, there's always the chance that my piston was broken from the beginning.

My one and only probe was on #1 (although, when I put it in, I believed that I was putting it into #3), so THAT could mean that even though I was seeing 1550, the actual temp on that cylinder could have been anything.

Quirt (or anyone),

What do you think about my theory about the two compression rings and oil rings gaps all in alignment being the cause of the crack?

Also, I need to point out to everyone that this engine doesn't have much more than 3k miles on it.:huh: Also, I may have noted before, but neither the UTEC nor the Tuna picked up any more knock than normal, I never 'drove through' the knock as I usually immediately stopped to tune it out. Also, EGTs never got above 1600. Actually rarely ever got near 1600.

FWIW, I did have a rich/misfire problem, though.

Sorry to say, but your broken ring lands were caused by excessive cylinder pressure. #4 runs the highest pressure of the bunch, which is why it is usually the first to go.

Your EGT's are fine, but the quantity of oil on the top all of your pistons should tell you something ;)

Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com

Thanks much.

Sorry Steve, That ring package will not fit on the piston without compromising the integrity of the ringlands.

It was worth a try though :)

Quirt


Oh well, we tried.

I guess I'll just have to have a hum-drum, standard 2.5L now. ;)

Just waiting on the pistons, headstuds, and headgaskets to show up.

I bought a set of telescoping 'T's. None of the heads are out of round.

Just waiting on the pistons, headstuds, and headgaskets to show up.

I bought a set of telescoping 'T's. None of the heads are out of round.

Me, too.

You must be referring to "snap" gauges...or inside mics. ;) or, telescoping "T" s. :lol: Good luck with your build, Pat!

Yeah, that's the ticket!;)

I wish the postal system would hurry up.

Refering back to earlier in the post, would you necessarily need an impact tool to put the access plate back on?

I tend to use one gently, but I will swap the philips headed m6 CSK screws for allen headed ones in future I think.

My christmas came.:D
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/new1.jpg
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/new2.jpg

Installing rings:

Ring Install
After establishing the correct end-gap on the compression rings, the next step is to actually install the rings on to the pistons. Special tools are available for this task, but most engine builders carefully "wind" the rings into the grooves. Support the piston when you are installing the rings: A bench vise with soft jaws clamping the connecting rod works well or a professional piston tray makes the job much easier. Start with the bottom oil ring and work your way to the top compression ring. First, the bottom oil rail gets slipped over the piston, then the corrugated expander and finally the top oil ring rail is sandwiched in the bottom ring groove. Space the top and bottom oil rail gaps 180 degrees apart and line them up with the wrist pin. Make certain that the ends of the expander do not overlap, but instead butt together. Next install the second compression ring by inserting one end in the groove and winding the remainder over the crown of the piston. Make certain that the inside beveled edge is pointing up. Next, do the same with the top ring. Be careful and take your time installing the rings. They are very brittle and do not tolerate too much twisting before they snap. Position the end-gaps of these compression rings 180 degrees apart, aligned with the wrist pin.

Any additional input?

Measure those pistons 3 times before you even think about putting them in the engine. Don't AssUMe they will be the right diameter, stuff happens :p

So sparkley and perty. :p

Measure those pistons 3 times before you even think about putting them in the engine. Don't AssUMe they will be the right diameter, stuff happens :p

They have all ready been been measured three times :)

Quirt

They have all ready been been measured three times :)

Quirt

:banana:


I ain't never used Mr Banana before.

:banana:'s are reserved for times just like this one gpatmac. =]

I'll post 2x bananas after I get my baby back together.

Headers are being ceramic coated. 6mt needs to come up to Indianapolis because I've got a bent reverse shift fork (I believe). I need a clutch and am not really certain which to choose. And then finally, my old tune is obviously no longer applicable, so I'm going do have to start at baseline.

Before I even think about all of that, I've got some rings and circlips and electrical connectors and hoses calling my name.

:banana:


I ain't never used Mr Banana before.
I just had to quote that before someone realized what it said and edited it out. :lol: :lol:

Heh heh.:D

I've always been more of a vienna sausage sort of guy.

I haven't started yet because I have to call Quirt for a real quick question, but I wanted to bump for another issue related to the topic of the thread.

I haven't conclusively identified the cause of the broken piston.

I have another thread here (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=655962) where I was convinced that my 'problem' was too much blowby, but I have never isolated any conclusions as to why.

It's obvious to see the coked oil on top of the piston domes (all 4). It's obvious to see that the comp rings on #4 were in line; again, not saying that that was the cause, just that it's noteworthy. The intercooler wasn't full but it and all of the piping were noticably very oily. The top of the block was consistently pooled with oil; I'd wipe it off looking for the root but never found anything...then the oil would come back. My downpipe is coated with old, cokey oil.

I just checked my PCV again tonight and it seems dead. No noise when you shake it. I'm getting a new one.

Lastly, much of this speculation doesn't discount the turbo. It's an FP Green with an oil line I had made that is 3/8" braided steel with the real purty coupling on the ends. There is no visable oil on or near the turbo.

I have half a mind to take it to the local turbo diesel shop so that I can be certain that the turbo is fine.

It's no secret that I'm a novice doing this, but I feel like there are probably many areas that I could suspect that aren't occuring to me.

Broken ring landings can make the car look like its got all sorts of problems. Clog your PCV with blowby, then start coating everything. I think all of your other "issues" are related to your broken ring landings - ie the other issues are symptoms of the ring landing failure.

One broken ring landing pushes oil through the entire system, so its no surprise to find oil on all of the other pistons. And oil in your intercooler piping. And oil in your PCV. And in all of the breather lines. And possibly leaking out on to the block from the breather hoses/intercooler hoses/exhaust/turbo, etc etc etc.....

I think you had a broken block for a period of time - just bad enough to cause all of these other issues.

This sounds very similar to what I'm going through. Oil in everything, had low rpm stutter issues and misfires. It all slowly got worse and worse.

This sounds very similar to what I'm going through. Oil in everything, had low rpm stutter issues and misfires. It all slowly got worse and worse.

how many miles and whats your setup?

recently broke 40k.
2.0
18g
Injen short ram
utec
TXS top mount

compression test: 130, 130, 132, 83 :(

http://axispowerracing.net/235pistons005.jpg

Let me rephrase. I know where the oil ring goes. Which of the other 3 grooves are for the comp and scraper rings?

Nevermind. MJU answered for me.

Can you post that info here just incase someone else uses this thread as reference in the future?

No problem at all.

My question was, which of the slots or grooves to use for which ring.

Now that I know the answer, I feel a little stupid.

http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/New2a.jpghttp://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/new2a.jpg

#2 is only about 1 or 2mm deep, so I'm guessing that it's managing any extra blow-by.

Just for reference, the groove with the little oil holes is the oil ring groove.

As an aside, I bought a $7 ring expander and a $7 ring compressor from Sears. The expander made putting the rings on TOO easy.

I paid extra attention to displacement of ring gaps between 1 & 2 (compression and scraper), as well as the gaps between gas ring, and top and bottom oil ring rails.

Where I'm at now is that I put one circlip in each piston. I've wiped them all down already and tomorrow, I'm going to go buy some Lucas Oil and some dino 10w-30 and coat all the pistons. I'll use the compressor and a rubber mallet, then align the rod ends and pistons, slip in the pins, then put the last 4 outer circlips back on.

Then put the access plates back on and throw the engine back in the car.;)

I wish it were that easy.

So it's the 1st one, third one, then the oil ring below that?

Yessir.

Where I'm at now is that I put one circlip in each piston. I've wiped them all down already and tomorrow, I'm going to go buy some Lucas Oil and some dino 10w-30 and coat all the pistons. I'll use the compressor and a rubber mallet, then align the rod ends and pistons, slip in the pins, then put the last 4 outer circlips back on.
You should probably oil up the cylinder walls rather then the pistons, but it wouldn't hurt to oil both.

Check to make sure, but I thought that if there was an offset in the piston wrist pin, you needed to put that either up or down on all the pistons. Not sure if any of those are offset, though, just heard it said before and want to make sure.

Also, oil up the wrist pins, and even the holes in the pistons/rods, before you insert the pins. Just will make it that much easier, and less likely to cause sideways scraping on the bearings.

I'll use the compressor and a rubber mallet, then align the rod ends and pistons, slip in the pins, then put the last 4 outer circlips back on.

Then put the access plates back on and throw the engine back in the car.;)

I wish it were that easy.

it really isn't that hard...getting the two rear circlips in is the toughest part, if you have it in an engine stand. a long pair of needle nose will do it though. having another person there to help align things is good. it took me about an hour for that whole process.

You should probably oil up the cylinder walls rather then the pistons, but it wouldn't hurt to oil both.

Check to make sure, but I thought that if there was an offset in the piston wrist pin, you needed to put that either up or down on all the pistons. Not sure if any of those are offset, though, just heard it said before and want to make sure.

Also, oil up the wrist pins, and even the holes in the pistons/rods, before you insert the pins. Just will make it that much easier, and less likely to cause sideways scraping on the bearings.Oh, I'm hitting everything I can with my oilcan.:D

I looked at the all of the wrist pins and didn't notice any distinctions. I'll look again.it really isn't that hard...getting the two rear circlips in is the toughest part, if you have it in an engine stand. a long pair of needle nose will do it though. having another person there to help align things is good. it took me about an hour for that whole process.Didn't you put the rear ones in before you put the pistons in the cylinder, or is there some reason I won't be able to do that?

Dude, if all you are doing is swapping pistons. I should have come to help you, should only take an hour or two. :)

-Mike

Well, yeah. That's pretty much all I'm doing, but my headers are up at Indy Powder Coating getting a ceramic coat, and although my stock clutch will probably work, I'm also probably going to put a new clutch in, so the engine ain't going back together for a few weeks.

My job is that I command an Army Recruiting company. I don't work a tenth as hard as my recruiters, but my workday usually starts at ~7 for PT until 7 or so. For the last 5 weeks or so, we've had 'processing Saturdays', too.

Pair that with my inexperience and the usual anxiety towards certain areas where I feel that I can't do something critical until I am absolutely certain I know how to do it (only to find out that it was 10 times easier than I expected.)

Lastly, for T-rex and cdvma, there are two thin retainer rings that go above and below the oil ring. One is completely flat and unmarked and the other is also unmarked and has a small retainer 'lip' on the gap end (meant to sort of lock into the oil ring). I put the smooth one above, and the lipped one below.

The compression ring is unmarked, but the scraper ring has a small 'R' on top of it. The letter is meant to be pointed up towards the dome of the piston.

i meant the two rear pistons are hard to get the circlips in, because the engine stand is in the way...i had the circlip on the side of the piston that was inboard, thats the way it has to go.

Lastly, for T-rex and cdvma, there are two thin retainer rings that go above and below the oil ring. One is completely flat and unmarked and the other is also unmarked and has a small retainer 'lip' on the gap end (meant to sort of lock into the oil ring). I put the smooth one above, and the lipped one below.

The compression ring is unmarked, but the scraper ring has a small 'R' on top of it. The letter is meant to be pointed up towards the dome of the piston.

Yeah that is right... Letters go up and opp of eachother. I also made sure when filing the rings to remove the rough edge with a file. Your subaru manual will tell you which direction to place each gap and what to do with the bottom ring as well.

-Mike

Also, in regards to the oil ring...

You have the upper rail, expander, and lower rail. The notched "upper" rail goes on top, hence the name. From what I read in your post, it sounded like you were going to put that face down on the bottom. It needs to go on top, and face upward to catch what Subaru calls "the side surface hole." Also, be sure none of the ring gaps are within the piston skirt area.

-Mike

Also, in regards to the oil ring...

You have the upper rail, expander, and lower rail. The notched "upper" rail goes on top, hence the name. From what I read in your post, it sounded like you were going to put that face down on the bottom. It needs to go on top, and face upward to catch what Subaru calls "the side surface hole." Also, be sure none of the ring gaps are within the piston skirt area.

-Mike

I'd better correct that.:o (that's the humble, embarrassed smiley.)

Also, I don't follow your last statement.

I'm babysitting right now, so I've halted work temporarily.

i meant the two rear pistons are hard to get the circlips in, because the engine stand is in the way...i had the circlip on the side of the piston that was inboard, thats the way it has to go.

Ah. Well, I've got it off of the engine stand right now. I was planning on doing it on my workbench until I couldn't any longer. I mean, I can curl my block.;) I can put it wherever pretty easily.

easiest way

I was planning on doing it on my workbench until I couldn't any longer. I mean, I can curl my block. I can put it wherever pretty easily. :eek: :eek: :lol:

Less strain on your back that way.

Also, I don't follow your last statement.



Look at where your ring gaps are placed, make sure they are on the sides of the piston so to speak, not near the top.

You will know what I mean when looking at the piston.

-Mike

Alright, for those that can't picture what I'm talking about, the upper rail that goes above the oil ring (dome = top, skirt = bottom). The oil ring assy (upper and lower rings, and corrugated oil ring) goes in the lowest groove. On the CP piston, there are oil relief holes all around that lowest oil ring groove.

My brilliant deduction:rolleyes: is that the CPs don't have a 'catch' for the lip of the upper rail (as the pics should show.)

Here's the upper rail for the oil ring:
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/oil.ring.upper.rail.jpg
Here is a crappy pic of the two oil rails (OEM top):
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/oem.vs.cp.jpg
Closeup OEM:
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/oem.upper.rail.hole.jpg
Closeup CP:
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/cp.under.holes.jpg
The problem is that since there is no cutout on the CP, that little lip pushes down on the oil ring so you can't get the under rail inserted in.


...I'm going to drop this until tomorrow when I can call Quirt or Chris. I think I'm going to go drop my transmission.:)

Here's old #4 btw:
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/bad.bad2.jpghttp://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/BadBad2.jpg

the lip has to be put down towards the bottom of the piston into the groove instead of up like the stock one.

Got it.

Ah. Well, I've got it off of the engine stand right now. I was planning on doing it on my workbench until I couldn't any longer. I mean, I can curl my block. I can put it wherever pretty easily.
agreed, on the bench until the pistons are in, then on the stand for sump, heads and ancillaries, then onto the hoist when complete.

the lip has to be put down towards the bottom of the piston into the groove instead of up like the stock one.
Absolutely.

I called Quirt and he confirmed that it goes towards the skirt, and there is one hole that is a bit wider than the rest (which you can see 2 pictures up, depending on your default thread view.) It's just on the right of the wrist pin slot.

I don't mean to draw away from gpat's subject but since were are talking about tearing apart stuff and putting it back together.... Is there one good way to get the material off the block (deck) that was left behind from the head gaskets? Steel wool doesn't seem to be enough. I was considering super light 400 grit sandpaper but wasn't sure if it was too damaging. I'm afraid the razor blade will dig in if I use that..... :confused:

ever heard of scotch bright? (brite?) i used that, the softest type that is(green), you dont want to remove material... i also found a die grinder tool that has a place for round scotch bright pads to sit on, its like a backing pad on a die grinder bit, that you can screw the pads into, and it goes quick. i got mine from fastenal. (commercial hardware store) its great for polishing anything really.

like so:http://www.toolweb.com/pics/MMM5541.jpg

I really don't care at all if someone hijacks my threads with good questions.


....good question.

This project is taking a short hiatus.

I screwed up; would rather not admit to what it is, but is nothing that would damage anything...until I rectify it.

My tentativeness comes in the fact that, a) I'm worried that I'm not being clean enough, and b) I'm so afraid of scuffing up the working parts and the sleeve too bad.

I was still working at putting the ring compressor on and sliding the piston down. That's when I got stopped.

I'll update when I overcome my own headspace and timing.

take a step back, clean everything well, put oil everwhere, drink a beer, begin assembly. pm me if you need any help.

This project is taking a short hiatus.

I screwed up; would rather not admit to what it is, but is nothing that would damage anything...until I rectify it.

My tentativeness comes in the fact that, a) I'm worried that I'm not being clean enough, and b) I'm so afraid of scuffing up the working parts and the sleeve too bad.

I was still working at putting the ring compressor on and sliding the piston down. That's when I got stopped.

I'll update when I overcome my own headspace and timing.


At least you caught it...my last engine, I assembled it seven times. :lol:
I don't use oil during assembly; I use Clevite's assy lube, it's awesome, and a lot less messy. You can't be too clean with engines that are using .001" clearances (and less in some instances). You know how to get ahold of me, let me know if I can help.

Steve

A friend told me about a Supra tuner out in Las Vegas who uses a 50-50 Lucas Oil Treatment to dino 10w 30.

It seems pretty neat, but boy it's so sticky that it picks up every bit of lint and dust.

I've heard of some ppl using vaseline.

I think I'm just going to dust real good and use some of those rubber proctology gloves.;)

I think I'm just going to dust real good and use some of those rubber proctology gloves.;)

I've heard of some ppl using vaseline.


:lol:

oh geeeez..... :rolleyes: :p

Well, I am dealing with lubrication and dirty orifices.:eek:

Well, I am dealing with lubrication and dirty orifices.
:lol: :lol: better safe than sorry!

Hey Pat, have you got any further on things?

Nah. I've had to spend extra time getting with the guidance counselors to make sure my Future Soldiers will graduate.:)

That and GT4 came out.

This weekend, I've got to go to a baby outlet with my wife then spend the day with my folks.

Next weekend should be primo time. My wife and little boy will be gone to the in-laws.

let me know if you need some help. mine may be able to get there by then...

Thanks very much.

Id be happy to drive over to bloomington to help you out. I have assembled thousands of these engines. I can also bring over some extra parts you may need. I work in the engine plant at the Subaru factory in Lafayette Indiana. The inner cir-clips are installed before the pistons are inserted, these will keep the wrist pin from sliding all the way through when inserted. The outer ones are the ones installed through the access holes in the sides of the blocks. Aligning the rod perfectly will be tricky, we use a special tool for that. Piston size is stamped on the top of the block "A" or "B" be sure your front marks are facing front of engine (dot on top edge of piston). Yes the ring gaps of the compression and scraper rings should be 180 degrees of each other. Also keep in mind that those rings have a top and a bottom. They can be put in upside down. Top should have some sort of mark on them.

What are you doing next weekend?:D I'll make it worth your while, at least I hope I can.

I didn't notice any marks on the CPs and the scraper ring has a mark, but I didn't see any on the oil ring.

Good news is that I found another circlip.

I hate to admit it, but when I went to put things back together, I realized that I was missing 2x circlips. I've cleaned all around my work area and found one. The other I'm afraid may be down in the crank/oilpan. I'm going to take the oilpan off this week. We're headed to Crawfordsville to see my folks tomorrow.

I'm originally from Crawfordsville, by the way.

Last circlip found. I'm cooking with gas, now.

Id be happy to drive over to bloomington to help you out. I have assembled thousands of these engines.

Would you consider Ft Wayne? ;)

gpat, glad to see you are back on track. :banana:

I don't mean to draw away from gpat's subject but since were are talking about tearing apart stuff and putting it back together.... Is there one good way to get the material off the block (deck) that was left behind from the head gaskets? Steel wool doesn't seem to be enough. I was considering super light 400 grit sandpaper but wasn't sure if it was too damaging. I'm afraid the razor blade will dig in if I use that..... :confused:


I got this stuff from Loctite called "Chisel Gasket Remover." It's a solvent that will dissolve pretty much anything. You spray it on, let it sit, and then just wipe it off. Just don't get it on any kind of painted surface, or rubber, or plastic, or your skin... I wouldn't use steel wool on that stuff as it comes apart, embeds itself, and then rusts. The 3M scotch-brite stuff works well in conjunction.

Yeah a couple of circlips would be no problem for me to get. I also have a special pair of pliers. Ive assembled thousands of pistons to. Notice the scraper ring has a beveled edge on one side. This side goes down. In order to install pistons 1 and 2 the engine has to be sitting on its rear (transmission mounting surface). Otherwise the rod will fall down because of gravity and you will never get the wrist pin in. Then it will have to be sitting with the rear end up to install the pistons 3 and 4.

Yeah a couple of circlips would be no problem for me to get. I also have a special pair of pliers. Ive assembled thousands of pistons to. Notice the scraper ring has a beveled edge on one side. This side goes down. In order to install pistons 1 and 2 the engine has to be sitting on its rear (transmission mounting surface). Otherwise the rod will fall down because of gravity and you will never get the wrist pin in. Then it will have to be sitting with the rear end up to install the pistons 3 and 4.

man you rock. I'll be in contact with you in the next coulpe weeks too!:D

Yeah a couple of circlips would be no problem for me to get. I also have a special pair of pliers. Ive assembled thousands of pistons to. Notice the scraper ring has a beveled edge on one side. This side goes down. In order to install pistons 1 and 2 the engine has to be sitting on its rear (transmission mounting surface). Otherwise the rod will fall down because of gravity and you will never get the wrist pin in. Then it will have to be sitting with the rear end up to install the pistons 3 and 4.


Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Mental note: American-assembled Subaru engines are not to be worried about.

Man, I was sure that they pre-assembled shortblocks in Japan and just shipped them over whole. Good to know that they actually do assemble there here as well.

And yes, gravity is a bitch. I assembled mine with them standing on the deck of the opposite side, just held the rod through the oil pan hole until I could tap the wrist pins in.

Subaru of Indiana doesn't produce Imprezas, though. http://www.subaru-sia.com/slide/main_menu.html Obviously they're EJ, though.

Now, can I just turn my block in the engine stand so that the cylinders are vertical?

yes45

as we say up here, wicked pissa thread..

:)

hey gpatmac, turns out our similar symptoms had similar causes. I pulled out my #4 and it looked a lot like your image on page 4......until I pulled the rings off......
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/741523/Piston.jpg

Yup. Bad bad.
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/bad.bad1.jpg
http://gpatmac.us/SubaruPics/New_Piston/BadBad2.jpg

Subaru of Indiana doesn't produce Imprezas, though. http://www.subaru-sia.com/slide/main_menu.html Obviously they're EJ, though.

Now, can I just turn my block in the engine stand so that the cylinders are vertical?
Yeah, all the H4's are EJ series. The only one that is current that is not, is the H6.

You should be able to do it that way, but IMO, it'll never be as stable as you will need it to be while on a stand. I do all my work on a workbench.

Thanks much.

Hey guys, just wanted to say hello here in this thread since I'm in a similar situation. Building an EJ25x right now. The person who had sold the block to me assumed it was a broken piston ring, rather today when I pulled the block apart found that it was a broken ring land. I guess this is a common occurance on the EJ25x??? Well, the forged pistons are going in so that's partially resolved. Why is it that the #4 goes? Even with the forged units in place, that will still be a trouble spot.

Later,

Todd

suscribed :D

Why is it that the #4 goes? Even with the forged units in place, that will still be a trouble spot.

I think that Quirt Crawford mentioned somewhere that the #4 sees the most cylinder pressure. Why exactly I don't know. I am concerned about that as well. Once I get everything back together on my ride, I want to know what I can do better to my tune to keep a measure of safety (ie avoid doing this again anytime soon). In my case it was probably advancing the timing too much, among other things.

I've got #1 and #2 in. Woohoo.

run into any more trouble areas?

It's just damn hard to keep the rings from slipping out from underneath the ring compressor. Other than that, it just takes patience to get the rod end to line up.

All in.
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/in1.jpg
http://awd.chargeair.boxerwagon.gpatmac.com/New_Engine/new_piston/in2.jpg

Hey, that #3 piston looks like it's in upside-down. :-/
















;)

Dude, don't scare me.;)

Looking good, man.

FWIW, to the poster who asked, I cleaned up my gasketed surfaces with the following:

- Oil pan mating surface on block = razor blade the major stuff off carefully like you are taking excess paint off of a window that had its frame painted. Then use these (http://www.eastwood.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=2318&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=gasket) with a die grinder at roughly 50psi with a semi-light touch.

- Head mating surface of block = Pads as above only

That's what I did at least. *shrug*

same here, but make sure you get the pads that do not take away material from the head. get the "soft" ones. they aren't really soft, but they wont screw up your block or head.

Did you have to hone the cylinder walls??? or is this not required on these engines. If you didnt do this how are the rings going to seat correctly?

I'm preceeding without honing the cylinder walls based on visual inspection and the fact that the engine had less than 3k miles on it. That is in accordance with advice I got from a very reputable EJ builder on this before I made the decision to forego it.

Rings fit perfectly.

Alright. I know I'm moving slowly.

I've got the crap off of the block and heads mating surfaces. Am I ready to mount them? I just have the nagging feeling that there's something I'm forgetting.

Edit. Oh yeah, I'm picking up some fujibond tomorrow from the dealer, for the cam covers.

I did a little searching so don't flame me too much, but could you explain why Subaru didn't cover this under warranty if the engine only had 3K on it?

Are you using new Head bolts? Make sure they are fully coated with a very thin coat of oil. Not dripping with oil just lightly coated.

I just assumed a WRX with an STi engine in it would raise some eyebrows. That and all of the other crap that is in the engine bay and stuff.

Yes, I bought ARPs. Thanks for the tip.

Make sure they are fully coated with a very thin coat of oil. Not dripping with oil just lightly coated.

just a question, what happens if you dont do this?
(i used assemly lube that came with them by the way)

just a question, what happens if you dont do this?
(i used assemly lube that came with them by the way)


Not speaking in Suby-specific terms, but when torquing bolts or studs, use what the manufacturer recommends....not necessarily oil.

The consequences of not using lubricant on the threads of said hardware would be incorrect torque applied to the fastener. HTH

Steve

Not speaking in Suby-specific terms, but when torquing bolts or studs, use what the manufacturer recommends....not necessarily oil.

The consequences of not using lubricant on the threads of said hardware would be incorrect torque applied to the fastener. HTH

Steve


Not to sound cocky but in this case I am the manufacturer and im recommending that you use regular 5w30 motor oil, and not just on the threads but on the shaft, the whole washer, and the underside of the bolt head. I dont know what any repair manual suggests using but this is what the factory uses.

Not to sound cocky but in this case I am the manufacturer and im recommending that you use regular 5w30 m