Just a quick post, no real meaty content, as I haven't put the car on the dyno yet, but I thought I would flash up a quick few picks.

Quick history for those not in the know. I've been running a number of different turbos on my EJ257, 20G, AVO500, Green (8cm), and AVO600. Last time out with the AVO600 freshly installed and 2 clylinders down I did about 450whp.

Anyways, I wanted to try something different, so I talked with Eric from GPMoto, and we decided to develope some EcuTek and UTEC maps for some of the really big turbos. The is a first pass GT40 GPMoto kit.

First up for me is a Twin Scroll GT40/GT37. Pics tell the story.

GT40 on left, AVO600 on top right, and stock VF39 on bottom right.

Without a doubt, at least for me, the biggest turbo I have yet to put on a Subaru. I have decals warning small children to stay away. ;)


http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/RBTTop2.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/RBTFront.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/RBTBack.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/RBTParts.jpg

More details, pics, spool up characteristics (as if that is even a question), etc to come in the next few days.. I need to get this car running for a track event tomorrow, and the turbo is still sittinng on the floor.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

:eek: :eek: :eek:

can't wait to see the results and writeup....

good luck with the install/tune :banana:

Nice, can't wait to hear some feedback after the tune.

I have decals warning small children to stay away. ;)


children and pets may be inducted? :lol:

Your putting that on a blown motor?

~v6

Is THAT going to be at Matrix this weekend!?!?! (Hopes and prays it will)

Thats awesome! GPmoto came through on that header and design! Jeff. I am confused on which turbo it is. Can you list full specs? Its the GT40 hotside?

C

Your putting that on a blown motor?

~v6

No.. I pulled my EJ257 and rebuilt with forged CP pistons, etc. I am nearly 100% sure this will be the end of this 257, but I have a sleeved block on the way.

Jeff

Thats awesome! GPmoto came through on that header and design! Jeff. I am confused on which turbo it is. Can you list full specs? Its the GT40 hotside?

C

Yep, it is looking good.. Just got the header in and working on intake plumbing.


The turbo is a GT40/GT37. I looked at the GT40 turbine, but it was even more huge.

The specs are:
88mm 54 Trim (.72A/R) GT40 compressor
72.5mm, 84 Trim, (1.12 A/R) GT37 turbine. (Twin Scroll)
65 lbs/min Compressor Flow

For comparison:
AVO500 (SBR-GT12, FullThrottle GT-12, etc)
76mm, 56 Trim (.60A/R) GT30 compressor
59.95mm, 84 Trim, (.86 A/R) GT30 turbine
In actual application (with the AVO housings) compressor flow should be somehwere in the 50-52 lbs/min flow, but turbine flow might be a bit more limiting.

As for the turbine housing:

The GT30 smaller turbine in the larger AVO turbine houseing flows in the range of 23 lbs/min corrected. The large GT30 turbine in the smaller .6 A/R turbine housings would be around 20 lbs/min corrected. The GT37 flows around 33 lbs/min corrected flow.

Since this compressor wheel is 65lbs/min like the AVO600, this will really tell the tale if the turbine side being too restrictive is a problem.

As for lag, I suspect I'll be doing the NOS spoolup. ;) ;)

Jeff

No.. I pulled my EJ257 and rebuilt with forged CP pistons, etc. I am nearly 100% sure this will be the end of this 257, but I have a sleeved block on the way.

Jeff
Nice. Did you just put pistons in the new setup? I have a friend that thinks they wiped out their motor and is considering the same setup. I dont think its too bad an idea, but I am wondering why you didnt toss some new rods in there while you were at it.

Too expensive? Not nessacary?

I would assume once you put rods and pistons in there it (the lower end) would be able to handle one hell of a beating.

Thoughts?

~v6

Nice. Did you just put pistons in the new setup? I have a friend that thinks they wiped out their motor and is considering the same setup. I dont think its too bad an idea, but I am wondering why you didnt toss some new rods in there while you were at it.

Too expensive? Not nessacary?

I would assume once you put rods and pistons in there it (the lower end) would be able to handle one hell of a beating.

Thoughts?

~v6

The only reason I didn't do the rods is beacuse I have a second 257 block being sleeved, which will have rods and pistons. I just tossed these CPs in to get the block back in shape for a few weeks of development.

Jeff

The only reason I didn't do the rods is beacuse I have a second 257 block being sleeved, which will have rods and pistons. I just tossed these CPs in to get the block back in shape for a few weeks of development.

Jeff
So if you were to build a motor for yourself (not a test mule) you would add the rods in there? (dumb question probably, but want to be sure)
Do you recall what the rods cost?

Do you think the stock rods are a weak point, or was it just a "While I am in there I might as well" mod?

~v6

that thing makes the avo600 look like a little bitch. :eek: can't wait to see some numbers

Wow did you see the size of Jeff's thing :huh:

Always breaking new ground! Keep it up!

Since this compressor wheel is 65lbs/min like the AVO600, this will really tell the tale if the turbine side being too restrictive is a problem.

Won't you also gain some efficiency with the larger intake diameter? Since you're talking about the UTEC and ECUTEK I assume that you're staying MAF based (at least for now). Are you going to use a MAF tube and filter that are the same diameter as the turbo's inlet?

So if you were to build a motor for yourself (not a test mule) you would add the rods in there? (dumb question probably, but want to be sure)
Do you recall what the rods cost?

Do you think the stock rods are a weak point, or was it just a "While I am in there I might as well" mod?

~v6


I'll go there:

It's a whole different animal to "add rods". You must disassemble the engine to put rods in it, so if you're going to go that far, you might as well do the full-tilt-boogie. ;) Putting pistons in it is relatively easier, and less time consuming.

~$700

Maybe a weak point at Jeff's level, but not for most, IMO. How many broken EJ257 rods have you heard of? According to a VG source, the stock rods are good for 500whp on a good tune.

Back on topic ;)

Steve

(1.12 A/R)

Since this compressor wheel is 65lbs/min like the AVO600, this will really tell the tale if the turbine side being too restrictive is a problem.

Jeff


This thread is what I've been waiting for.....thanks, Jeff.

Care to dyno a Crankcase evacuation pump while you're on there? ;)

Is there a reason while you are still staying w/ UTEC and ECUtek, instead of going w/ a complete stand alone like the Hydra?

I'll go there:

It's a whole different animal to "add rods". You must disassemble the engine to put rods in it, so if you're going to go that far, you might as well do the full-tilt-boogie. ;) Putting pistons in it is relatively easier, and less time consuming.

~$700

Maybe a weak point at Jeff's level, but not for most, IMO. How many broken EJ257 rods have you heard of? According to a VG source, the stock rods are good for 500whp on a good tune.

Back on topic ;)

Steve
I keep forgetting about that. Point well taken.

I'm wondering if he thinks he is near the limits of the stock rods. money aside...

~v6

p.s. btw i think the main reason you dont see more broken rods is because you dont see many 400+hp cars out there.

OMG that thing could drive a ship. I may have to drive down to PDX just to see this thing run or blow up or whatever is going to happen.

boohaa is right. make sure to post final results

*passes out*

Would this turbo be a good bolt on option for around 250whp on the stock ej205?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

who makes those headers? i have a gt/32 twin scroll i was going to pickup for $700 but i didn't want to use the jdm sti header since i wanted to run an external waste but that one has it all built in.

Welcome powerleak.

It says right there who made the headers.

You're to sexy for your turbo. :banana:


Life a little expensive on the bleeding edge Jeff?? :eek:

Good lord... that turbo is the size of a small childs head :eek:

Goodness, gracious, I have to watch this... :eek: :huh: :eek:

ohhhh me likey!!!! what kind of figures are you hoping to get out of this?

Its not a new idea to put a turbo that big on a WRX, many many people have done it, (ive had a 65lb turbo on my car for over a year) BUT, that header setup with the swinscroll, IS wicked RAD!!! it is amazing, they look to be equal length, if not close, and the way thats setup is absolutely FCKING amazing!!! I have my own custom kit, that ive been running for the past year, BUT if this works out the way i think it can, then Those headers are mine!!! (that is if they are going to be produced.) im serious... hey ive been looking into a larger turbo for my car, pt67, gt40, gt42, t72-76, and i cant remember if the 42 compressor housing from a 42, will bolt up to the smaller turbine housings being used on the 30, 35, and 40 sponaugle, can you tell me? my predictions, are that it will make full boost at 6k. mine makes it at 5k, right now. its a p trim wheel t4 turbine housing, with .58 air ratio, and stock header. its on a 2.4 liter motor.

anyways that is an awesome dragsetup, that turbine housing is really a great flowing housing, and will not restrict at all! youll be making more power than people who are using t3 hotsides for sure! alot more, just for the fact that you are using that compressor. Im very interested in this car, and will be following it from now on. if that twinscroll spools well at all, ill be doing the same thing to my car!

first off- :eek:!! i cant stop giggling like a school girl when i look at that turbo.

i do have some questions about that setup, though. could we get a pic of the other side of that header? i want to see how that wastegate is hooked up to a twin scroll setup. is it a y-pipe on the other side?

is that a full 4" downpipe!??!? OMG.

awesome setup, cant wait to see the results!

Now that, my friends, is a turbo. I read it like 10 times trying to figure out who your friend was that now had a turbo and what that had to do with anything. :lol: Those commas make a big difference. Anyway, how much does that thing weigh and what is your redline?

Why are you trying the GT37 core over a conventional GT35R turbo with the rotated fitment and external WG? It will be interesting to see how the twin scroll spools it up, but if possible I would get a extra ex housing of lower A/R ratio to try too.

Paul

i want that turbo to have my children...

The header is a modified version of the same header many vendors sell. GPMoto, QTP, Urban Import, Invidia, all the same header. You just chop off the part where it comes into a single junction before the turbo and extend the piping and add a flange. Probably easier said than done but if you had someone make you a custom Garrett kit they could probably make this. That header usually comes in multiple pieces, what would be nice is if someone had an interchangable regular vs. twin-scroll for the uppipe portion. That one looks like when it's all setup the turbo will sit at a slight angle rotated outside the intake manifold.

The external wastegate setup looks pretty cool.

Are you not going to get a lot of pulse leakage or reversion at the junction of the twin up-pipes to the single wastegate pipe?

Or is the wastegate only connected to one up-pipe?

i want that turbo to have my children...

It wouldn't even feel you. :lol: :lol: :p

opps should've read it more thoroughly :)

It wouldn't even feel you. :lol: :lol: :p



HAHAHAHAHAH :lol:

Talked to Jeff on the phone a while ago. He is out testing the kit right now. I was happy to hear that its full on by 4500-5000 rpm. Nice...

Clark

I am interested in seeing what this turbo puts out but more at what RPM it's doing it by?

Talked to Jeff on the phone a while ago. He is out testing the kit right now. I was happy to hear that its full on by 4500-5000 rpm. Nice...

Clark

More details please!

Wow the gt40 makes the avo600 look tiny in comparison.

Talked to Jeff on the phone a while ago. He is out testing the kit right now. I was happy to hear that its full on by 4500-5000 rpm. Nice...

Clark
holy crap. is that NOS assisted spool? if not, thats insane...purely insane.

i dont understand why garrett doesnt have a GT30R sized (and ball bearing) twin scroll turbo. that GT40/37 is ginormous and still spools at 4500...a GT30R (-12 we'll say)sized bb twin scroll would spool around 3500 im guessing and have mucho power to boot.

but back on topic- updatesss! :)

My GT30R-12 in a .84 AR turbine is producing a bar at 3400-3600 rpm. I can produce 25 psi before 4000. Twin scroll helps but the big turbine helps even more. I have been saying this for about a year now.

C

twin scroll if done right is equal to or greater than the shiznit! Im going to do that to my kit, I made it by my self, so it shouldnt be too much of a problem sponaugle. that is awesome, Im getting full boost by 5, and that is with a much smaller hot housing. anyways, exactly how large is the gt40s hotside? you say its a 37? what does that compare to in oldschool garrett numbers?

My GT30R-12 in a .84 AR turbine is producing a bar at 3400-3600 rpm. I can produce 25 psi before 4000. Twin scroll helps but the big turbine helps even more. I have been saying this for about a year now.

C
i know youve been saying it for a year now, clark...and ive been there on the same page as you (downshift1 agrees as well). knowing that the garrett turbines are bigger than the typical subaru turbines is what draws me to it. and knowing that a good sized (not ginormous like the 37) twinscroll turbine (GT30) with a bb center, you could lower your spool substantially. and make better than "green-like" power numbers.

clark, you still on the v7 or are you running a 257 now? if i recall, youre still using the 207...which in case, your turbo on the 257 would probably spool 1 bar in the <3250 range, id bet.

twin scroll if done right is equal to or greater than the shiznit! Im going to do that to my kit, I made it by my self, so it shouldnt be too much of a problem sponaugle. that is awesome, Im getting full boost by 5, and that is with a much smaller hot housing. anyways, exactly how large is the gt40s hotside? you say its a 37? what does that compare to in oldschool garrett numbers?
something to point out- unless youre running avcs (like jeff is), his will out-spool you significantly.

i know youve been saying it for a year now, clark...and ive been there on the same page as you (downshift1 agrees as well). knowing that the garrett turbines are bigger than the typical subaru turbines is what draws me to it. and knowing that a good sized (not ginormous like the 37) twinscroll turbine (GT30) with a bb center, you could lower your spool substantially. and make better than "green-like" power numbers.

clark, you still on the v7 or are you running a 257 now? if i recall, youre still using the 207...which in case, your turbo on the 257 would probably spool 1 bar in the <3250 range, id bet.

Clark's been on the 257 for a loooooong time now.

-Sean

Jared. You have a .58 AR turbine which is exactly why you have to wait until 5k. Jeffs turbine housing is nearly twice the size of yours in AR as he has the 1.1 AR turbine. Your little hot side is choking that motor off big time. We run a .96 t04 hotside on the shop car with a 60-1 t04S compressor. Its fully spooled by 4500. Same P trim wheel.

Clark

holy crap. is that NOS assisted spool?

http://www.roadassociates.com/albums/album19/aah.jpg

Talked to Jeff on the phone a while ago. He is out testing the kit right now. I was happy to hear that its full on by 4500-5000 rpm. Nice...

Clark

Thanks for the bits on the AVCR Clark, it worked great.

Ok, here is a quick update:

I got all of the parts together tuesday night, and wednesday morning pull the car in the garage and started wrenching. With the help of Jarrad and Tim of PDXTuning, plus Eric and Sean of GPMoto, we got everything on my car torn down and reinstalled by end of day. This is a prototype kit, but I understand it will be available as a complete bolt-on kit very soon. To make good room for the turbine housing, a few things like the power steering lines need to be moved. I'll be making some -6AN hoses for those, which will make the job a lot eaiser.

When I am home over lunch I'll take a few pictures. It fits in there perfectly, but close. Really close. There is just about enough room to fit the turbo, assuming you get rid of the cruise control box (which I have not had for years anyway).

I have a few exhaust leaks, partly because I forgot a gasket or two. ;)
Wednesday night the car started up great, I took it around the block to check for leaks, etc, the called it a night.

GP Moto rented Seattle Raceway for Thrusday for some photoshooting and some test and development. I had the car out on the track for about 4 hours, spending the first hour getting boost control and at least a very basic tune. Having a race track for development is the way to go. I think PDXTuning will be renting that track outselves in the very near future!

Results: It spools somewhere in the 4500-5000 range, hits very hard, and does not let up. I had the wategate line to the AVCR backwards (external wastegate), so it snapped right up to 1.95 bar at 8500 rpm. I fixed that right away. ;)

Once I got the boost under control, I didn't really crack much over 1.5 bar, only because I wanted make sure everything was installed and working well before cranking up the power.. and the track was good and fun anyways. Even with only 1.5 bar, I was able to get up to 150mph on the front straight, and it was pulling like mad.

Performace was spectacular for a good while, then things got worse. The clutch just would not hold up. I have an Exedy Single Plate Hyper, and it broke loose in the boost. I was actually able to drive sevearl hours of abusive driving, but in the upper RPM, you could feel it slip free. By the end, it was done. Clutch is fried. I think something broke in the pressure plate as well. Special thanks to Jarrad who was a passenger for many of these laps, which is no easy task at SIR in a fast car with race tires.

Summary: Spool up is not as bad as I expected, and with an 8500 redline, it is perfect on the track. I have Spec C cams, and will be pulling the motor this weekend to swap in Jun 272s. This turbo really needs those cams.

As for NOS, I will also add that for spoolup. For drag racing it would be essential.

More details to come. And I'll get it on the dyno as soon as I find a better clutch. I might do the Exedy Triple Plate. Clark recommened one as well sometime ago that I need to look in to.. Triton? Titan? Can't remember the name.

As an aside, The performance characteristics of my suspension were interesting. I got to drive Tim's STI as well as follow a few other modifed cars our there. It seems that the turn-in character of my suspension works a bit better with my setup with my stock front sway bar. Many people put on aftermarket front and rear bars, and then get light springs. I went the opposite way and run Teins with 9 and 8 kg springs, stock front bar, and Perrin Rear sway bar. The result seems to be a bit better turn-in grip, and a bit flatter exits, and some excellent oversteeer. I'd be curious to hear other comments on this.

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

Now that, my friends, is a turbo. I read it like 10 times trying to figure out who your friend was that now had a turbo and what that had to do with anything. :lol: Those commas make a big difference. Anyway, how much does that thing weigh and what is your redline?

Hahahahha. As for weight, the turbo is a bit hefty, but the exhaust is titanium so it weighs next to nothing. It is just amazing to feel the difference in weight between this exhuast and my BPM TT. And equally suprising the Ti exhaust and header is not as loud as I expected. Actually it isn't that loud at all. Perhaps all that sound is absorbed in the turbo. ;)
Jeff

Are you not going to get a lot of pulse leakage or reversion at the junction of the twin up-pipes to the single wastegate pipe?

Or is the wastegate only connected to one up-pipe?

I considered that, but it appears to work very well. I'll be installing EBP gauges, so I'll do one for each scroll and see it is jumps a lot.
Jeff

He is not running nitrous yet, and it has not been tuned for optimal performance yet. Right now it is a little laggy for a road course, but that did not stop him from going DAMN fast anyway. The sick thing is the air this turbo flows, time for a new MAF solution.

twin scroll if done right is equal to or greater than the shiznit! Im going to do that to my kit, I made it by my self, so it shouldnt be too much of a problem sponaugle. that is awesome, Im getting full boost by 5, and that is with a much smaller hot housing. anyways, exactly how large is the gt40s hotside? you say its a 37? what does that compare to in oldschool garrett numbers?

I believe the GT40 hotside I saw was 1.34 A/R, which is pretty huge. I think it also comes in a smaller .97 A/R, but the 37 hotside seems pretty good!

Jeff

He is not running nitrous yet, and it has not been tuned for optimal performance yet. Right now it is a little laggy for a road course, but that did not stop him from going DAMN fast anyway. The sick thing is the air this turbo flows, time for a new MAF solution.


Yea, the MAF will be a problem. As soon as boost comes on, even at 1.5 bar, the BigMAF gets pegged. Since it is a 4" Inlet, a larger 3.5" MAF tube might be the trick.

Jeff

Jeff,

Tilton is the name you are looking for. They are nice, but don't even think about the organic discs - they are too thin, and even if it could somehow hold your power, they would last a few weeks. I use an Exedy HyperTwin, and it holds like a monster, but you're well past my meager (only 400whp - 360lb/ft) power levels.

Contact Titan in Florida about a Tilton clutch. They have to put the pieces of the kit together to your spec, and it takes them about a week. I think they can do a carbon/carbon, which should still give you some drivability.

Good luck!

-Sean

GP Moto rented Seattle Raceway for Thrusday for some photoshooting and some test and development. I had the car out on the track for about 4 hours, spending the first hour getting boost control and at least a very basic tune. Having a race track for development is the way to go. I think PDXTuning will be renting that track outselves in the very near future!

Damn, I should have snuck over there at lunch and spied on you guys. 150 is flying down the front straight. Were you able to keep going flatout for that little right at the end of the straight (off of the dragstrip and back onto the track)?

Yep. We use the Tiltons now. This white car with the GT3040 is getting one. They make two versions. One for 500ft lbs and one for 700ft lbs. Same price. They replace the slave cyl and pitch fork and use a diaphram slave. Titan also sells an optional larger master cyl which is suggested. Its $100 extra and worth it. If you use the stock master the pedal pressure will be very, very light. You do have to grind your 6mt trans out in the bell housing to make the tilton fit but its nothing you cant handle. Kinda like putting a 6mt clutch into a 5mt trans.

dont even think of trying the exedy twin. Its not going to hold. The center disks will split and break at thos power levels and your abuse level :)

Cant wait for those pics!

Clark

We have to thank Jeff for being such a good sport and letting us unleash this monster on his poor car. We are very pleased with how this kit has come together after a year of hypothesis and testing and now finally seeing the finished product, it is very cool. Riding shotgun in this car was amazing, the power delivery was very good and Jeff is a talented driver to boot. To answer a few questions. The Kit is now available and we are taking orders. The header is equal length and the wastegate draws off both uppipes before mergeing into a single pipe that leads into the wastegate. Price is a little north of our GT32 kit. We had a great day yesterday and we have to thank Pacific Raceway for letting us a have free reign on the track, stay tuned as more GPMoto track days are being planned.

Yeah don't try an Exedy Hyper Semi Carbon twin disc cause mine didn't even try to hold for one pass :mad: I pulled 405WHP and the clutch seemed to hold fine on launch but, when I wind it out in the traps it slips like you can't believe :eek:

I'm having a real fun time trying to contact Exedy or Daiken to see what they can do about a clutch I spen t a fortune for that doesn't work :furious:

This is a prototype kit, but I understand it will be available as a complete bolt-on kit very soon.



Jeff,

This may be premature of a question, and most certainly is, you said that this will be a kit.

Is this somthing that PDX is going to package and make available to the public, dealers, install shops, tuners and the like once designed and fully tested??

If so any imaginable pricing considering the nature of such a package. I realize that this is an impossible question.... but someone had to ask.


Thanks
-Ken :)


^^^^^ QUESTION ANSWERED.... LOL.....

Look two posts up... :)

Yea, the MAF will be a problem. As soon as boost comes on, even at 1.5 bar, the BigMAF gets pegged. Since it is a 4" Inlet, a larger 3.5" MAF tube might be the trick.

Jeff


This may sound like an odd solution, what about one of the 4inch MAF's used on the diesel trucks? Or is there room under the hood for one of those?

Steven Walker

Jeff,

This may be premature of a question, and most certainly is, you said that this will be a kit.
Is this somthing that PDX is going to package and make available to the public, dealers, install shops, tuners and the like once designed and fully tested??
If so any imaginable pricing considering the nature of such a package. I realize that this is an impossible question.... but someone had to ask.
Thanks
-Ken :)
^^^^ QUESTION ANSWERED.... LOL.....

As per above, GPMoto will be making a kit for it, and we will be making some base maps for the ecutek, Utec, and probably the Hydra. A Map based solution would be an ideal way to go.

As for the 4" MAF, there probably isn't enough room to fit 4" thru the small space between the engine and turbo. Might be, but 3.5 would work better.

Also, with a 4", the resolution would be a problem. Remember area goes with the square of radius. I'm going to give Phil a call and see about trying a Hydra on this.

Jeff Sponaugle

This may sound like an odd solution, what about one of the 4inch MAF's used on the diesel trucks? Or is there room under the hood for one of those?

Steven Walker
Since when do they use a MAF on a diesel :confused:

http://www.gpmototech.com/GPMotoClub.htm
A few pics from the track day...

with this extreme setup and power wouldnt it be a better solution to just switch to a speed density system?

-bill

Element Hydra to the rescue.

Since when do they use a MAF on a diesel

In Europe they start using them around 1994 on Diesel cars! (I don't know about the US)

Mark.

Very interesting Jeff! This all just blows me away. I'm really interested in seeing the dyno results.

Soon enough, you'll have to experiment with getting a supercharger installed to help spool up. :D *Just being goofy*

In Europe they start using them around 1994 on Diesel cars! (I don't know about the US)

Mark.
There using them on the electronic injection diesels her now but the car ones would be to small and the truck ones would be to big to fit in a WRX compartment.

Basically I was thinking of the old style diesels before I guess. Anyway Europe has better diesel fuel than here in the US :(

Any plans for a scaled down GT-37 twin scroll turbine with a GT-35 trim 56 compressor hybrid for us mortals ? I will have 2.8l to spin the turbine .

PROPS!!!!

Im not really a suby fan anymore....but hats off to you...thats a killer setup. a ton of cash...I'd love to see more of it!
(almost makes me want to stop saving for a house to get one of those.....nevermind that)

good freakin God thats amazing...i want to see the dyno charts of this...or the remains of your engine? :lol: just messing...good luck!

Are you not going to get a lot of pulse leakage or reversion at the junction of the twin up-pipes to the single wastegate pipe?

Or is the wastegate only connected to one up-pipe?

thats actually a good point....... how does that affect things? maybe it would be a good thing to just use a housing that is made for internal gate, then just custom fab up a flange for a tial or something...

The header on Sponaugles car does have both scrolls connected to the wastegate. So far it appears to work as the two ports do not connect till a moderate distance away. More over tapping both sides on a twinscroll setup has been done plenty of times before. That said likely the production GPMoto T3 headers will all pull off of one scroll as it appears to be more than enough to control boost.

And as said before this *IS* a GPMoto kit that is already done, and on the price sheet. However this size of a turbo is IMO NOT one that will ever be "in stock on shelf" in kit form as frankly its of a size that it will only be going into full up race cars, with all that implies. More over cars like Sponaugles, where there is already a FMIC, and other modifications requires more custom work to accomidate. This is likely why it felt more "nearly a kit" than "a kit". Well that and its only the 2nd one of its kind.

I'd also like to thank The PDXtuning crew for thier comments on the kit, as they have made some suggestions that will make the future kits just that much better.

As per above, GPMoto will be making a kit for it, and we will be making some base maps for the ecutek, Utec, and probably the Hydra. A Map based solution would be an ideal way to go.

As for the 4" MAF, there probably isn't enough room to fit 4" thru the small space between the engine and turbo. Might be, but 3.5 would work better.

Also, with a 4", the resolution would be a problem. Remember area goes with the square of radius. I'm going to give Phil a call and see about trying a Hydra on this.

Jeff Sponaugle


Have you talked to anyone about using different sample tubes on the larger maf's? Your readings are going to get pretty funky when the sample tube sits furthur and furthur north of the center.

subcribing

ttiwwop

... nm ...

ttiwwop


Here are a few quick shots of the kit installed on the car.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/GT40Install1.jpg
MRT FMIC still installed. Fortunatly the MRT pipes were high enough to let the compressor inlet fit right below it. We had to make a few custom silcone hoses to fit the compressor output, but nothing brain draining.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/GT40Install3.jpg
With the pipe out of the way, you can see how the external wastegate fits above the piping.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/GT40Install4.jpg
Compressor inlet squeaks right thru the space between the engine and the strut tower.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/GT40Install5.jpg
Compressor outlet is turned compared to stock, so a bit of a 4 degree silicone hose is needed.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/GT40Install6.jpg

Cheers,
Jeff Sponaugle

Looking at how packed things are getting in there I am starting to think the 60's VW's I used to hot rod have a lot more room now :lol:

Looks awesome! How is the tuning coming along? Everything else in the car holding up to that monster?
Compressor outlet is turned compared to stock, so a bit of a 4 degree silicone hose is needed.Missing a 5 after that 4 i think. ;)

i love reading threads like this. cheers to all of you who are in the trenches inspiring all of us!!

ken

jr likes....

jr likes....
Oh really :confused: :lol:

Oh really :confused: :lol:


:D :devil:

Now you just need one of these to drop into that awsome car



<---------------------

man it is tight in there.........and how hot is it under that hood? No problems?

man it is tight in there.........

thats what I said to her

sorry i couldnt resist

Ben

Update:

As I mentinoed in the previous follow up to the track day, my clutch was not doing happy things. I pulled the motor out of the car, and this is what the pressure plate bolts looked like (top ones):

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/PressurePlateBolts.jpg

The top ones are from the car, and the bottom ones are replacement 12.9 metric with nylon lock from McMaster-Carr. It turns out that 1 of the bolts came completly out (and was just lying in the bell housing), and two more had been sheared off. It suspect the torque at very high RPMs (I was running to 8500) may have caused too much vibration. The bolts were torqued to spec, but next time, I'll loctite them. ;) Clutch and flywheel look fine, minus the typical heat scarring of 6000 rpm launch control. As for what is next, I am trying to decide between the RPS carbon-carbon, or the Tilton. Both are in the $2000+ range, but both are also rebuildable.

As for the motor, since I had it out, I went ahead and pulled the Spec C cams out and put in the Jun 272s. This turbo will flow uptop, so cams will help a lot I suspect. Unfortunatly, no more AVCS.

Here are a few snapshots:

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/EngineStand1.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/EngineStand2.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/EngineStand3.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/EngineStand4.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/EngineStand5.jpg

Jeff Sponaugle
www.pdxtuning.com

I also decided to add an oil cooler, which Matrix Integrated is now selling for the Subarus.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/OilCooler2.jpg

You can see the sandwich adapter in the last picture on the previous post.

Also, since room is limited where the turbo is located, and I am always pulling and reinstalling the engine, I decided to take the stock power steering lines to a local shop to have high pressure AN line made to replace them. Much eaiser to route around the engine bay!

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/PowerSteeringLines.jpg

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/PowerSteeringLines2.jpg

I also added quick-disconnects to the fuel lines, to further speed engine swapping.

I need to rewire a few things in the engine bay, clean up some stuff, add some head shielding, and drop the motor back in. I should be on the dyno over Christmas.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/EngineStand6.jpg

Cheers!

Jeff Sponaugle

What's that little blue thing under the block that you can see from the front shot?

You sure this is not for a airplane? The turbo look bigger than the engine. Good god.

You are running stock pistons and rods for now? And they have held?

What's that little blue thing under the block that you can see from the front shot?

You sure this is not for a airplane? The turbo look bigger than the engine. Good god.

You are running stock pistons and rods for now? And they have held?

The blue thing is one of the AN nipples for the sandwich adapter used by the oil cooler. I swapped in CP forged pistons at the last service, so they should be good to go. Thses are however stock rods and crank. If there is anything I suspect will break, it is a rod bearing, as this particular block was never torn down and checked and has some pretty hard miles one it. The second block I am building was torn down and balanced, etc. Sleeves as well will certainly help out some.

Someone once told me "If your not breaking, your not breaking new ground". LOL.

I suppose this would work well in a small, light weight plane. Hmm..

Jeff Sponaugle
www.pdxtuning.com

Does the oil cooler from Matrix use a thermostat to keep coil from flowing through it before the car is warmed up?

I suppose this would work well in a small, light weight plane. Hmm..

Jeff

Maybe you should just have Jeff Perrin build some retractable wings for the car :D

Does the oil cooler from Matrix use a thermostat to keep coil from flowing through it before the car is warmed up?



Yes it does, I have their oil cooler kit on my car as well.

Yes it does, I have their oil cooler kit on my car as well.

Correctamundo. And they also have a transmission cooler for the STI 6 speed. (the fittings are different for the JDM 6-Speeds that Mick and I have)

You can't see it in the other pictures, but there is the sad pile-o-old turbos that feel discarded and left out now that the GT40 has arrived. ;)

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/OldTurbos.jpg
VF39, Green-8cm, AVO600(GT30-14)

Jeff Sponaugle
www.pdxtuning.com

Know that's a real man tool box :cool:

okay, that's the hawtest motor i've ever seen..... can't wait to see that monster go down the track

poor forsaken turbos... :(

poor forsaken turbos... :(
Yes, a few of them need homes. Hint: The AVO600 is for sale, $1250, garrett -14 CHRA, >450whp capable, bolts in stock location. ;)

Cheers to all!

Jeff Sponaugle
www.pdxtuning.com

jeff which one of you is brothers with sterling who lives in UTAH?

jeff which one of you is brothers with sterling who lives in UTAH?

Uh.. Hmm.. I have to admit I have no idea what you meant? Is there a Sterling Sponaugle or a Sterling Perrin in reference here? If there is a Sterling Sponaugle, no relation I know of, but then again, I'm originally from West Virginia, so who knows. ;)

As for Perrin, I would have to ask Jeff (Perrin that is).

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

im not sure who it is, (what his last name is) but apperaltly hes brothers with someone who started GPmoto, and built that kit. something like that, we met in the gym parking lot, and i just thought id ask. he know alot about your car, and said he was someones brother. I cant remember however who it was. they are from OR. and his father owns the company bushwacker truck fender flairs or whatever its called.

im not sure who it is, (what his last name is) but apperaltly hes brothers with someone who started GPmoto, and built that kit. something like that, we met in the gym parking lot, and i just thought id ask. he know alot about your car, and said he was someones brother. I cant remember however who it was. they are from OR. and his father owns the company bushwacker truck fender flairs or whatever its called.


Ok.. you are probably talking about Sean's brother. Sean and Eric are the two guys who run GPMoto, and Sean's dad is the owner of Bushwacker.

GPMoto is a local portland company that makes the GT40 turbo kit that I have on my car. I myself am part of PDXTuning, an unrelated Portland based Subaru tuning company.

Anyways, back to the regularly scheduled bragging. ;)

Cheers,

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

Holy Chit that is a nice downpipe on that gt40 setup.

Holy Chit that is a nice downpipe on that gt40 setup.

Indeed - Sean from GP-moto did an excellent job fabricating the entire system.

Considering how little room there was to work, the fact that it all fit on the first try is a testament to Sean's skills and previous R&D on the other GP-moto turbo kits.

Nice job Sean.

Bailey

Thats an amazing turbo. When i see turbos like that i think of a guy i know with a 626 gt w/ a turbo in it. This is seriously the smallest turbo ive EEEEEEEEEEEEEVER seen in my life. It resembles a large snail.

Just wanted to say the kit looks pretty sick.

Will that DP bolt up to a GT35R hot side for those of us that want to run the new garrent housings rather than the older T3 housing?

Does GPMoto plan to make up pipes for non-twin scroll Garretts.... release a GT35R kit.... ?????

Thanks

Edit: Jeff keep spinning that thing to 8500 and let us all know how the bottom end takes it / looks on tear down. I am really curious to know what a reasonable rev limit (for the track) is for the stock crank and bearings.

Who else has upgraded heads and is spining the 257 bottom end past 7k?

Javid, GPMoto has done a 30R and 35R however they were special requests, and I don't know if they will be produced.

Basicly I have NO faith in the 30R as being worth while. I think there are better ways to get that size of compressor, and make more power doing so. Time will tell if the 35R can make a good turbo just below the 40/37 hybrid but I'm worried that it will spool at the same RPM while having less peak power.

What transmission are you running? 6 speed? Straight cut gears? What differentials are you going to use when your stock diffs break? What clutch do you have in mind to hold this kind of power? Sorry for all the questions, but this is quite out of my area of experience and I am very interested in the results.

Javid, GPMoto has done a 30R and 35R however they were special requests, and I don't know if they will be produced.

Basicly I have NO faith in the 30R as being worth while. I think there are better ways to get that size of compressor, and make more power doing so. Time will tell if the 35R can make a good turbo just below the 40/37 hybrid but I'm worried that it will spool at the same RPM while having less peak power.

Thanks. As far as the 30R and 35R, I still have hope that these will work out to be great setups. I don't spend too much time in PPB but I haven't seen any results from these with the Garrett housings. Also, alot of the gurus here tend to think that alot of the kits with posted results are running too small of a hot side. So..... time will tell.

Javid, this is why I think the conventional turbos will outshine the "R" series. They have twinscroll and better sized turbines than the "R" series of turbos. Basicly
I see the 30R as a victim of "bigger must be better" on the compressor side. Way to large of a compressor on a small turbine for the bigger versions.

The 35R might prove out as a "medium" turbo as there isn't exactly an abundance of turbos in that size range.

Yes, a few of them need homes. Hint: The AVO600 is for sale, $1250, garrett -14 CHRA, >450whp capable, bolts in stock location. ;)

Cheers to all!

Jeff Sponaugle
www.pdxtuning.com

I have a few questions before I buy this AVO600 turbo for my 04 STI.

What are the comp and turbine wheel sizes.
What are the comp and turbine housing sizes
What PSI of boost did you make the 427 WHP

In your opinion do you think the AVO600 is a better turbo than the APS SR55. Please all the info you can give me will be great.

Thanks Andreas Miko

I can't answer any but the last.

If you want big power the AVO600 >>>> SR55.

I don't even know if the SR55 really would do well at over 400WHP based on what I've seen and heard.

can i bump this one? updates ect, its an AWESOME turbo setup, and i can find nothing else about it on the internet...

I predict red rocket

can i bump this one? updates ect, its an AWESOME turbo setup, and i can find nothing else about it on the internet...

Sorry for the lack of updates. I was out of the country for 3 weeks, and am just getting things back in order. I pulled the motor out of the car to make a few changes:

(1) I currently have Spec C heads with Jun Cams. I am putting larger valves, porting, and stiffer valve springs in to allow a bit higher rev.

(2) I'm getting a modifed header/exhaust manifold with a few changes - one is to vent the wastegate off only one runner (twin scroll), and the other is to vent the wastegate to the ground.

(3) I'm adding NOS for spoolup. Something simple like a 50shot that turns off once boost breaks 15psi or so.

I'll have the headwork completed in about 2 weeks, and should have the car on the dyno in 3. The drag season opens here in a few weeks, and I'm looking foward to pushing it.

Once thing for sure. When I get in the 10s, and I will, I will not only post the complete modification list, I will also post the datalogs, and the UTEC map. No insult meant to anyone else about this... and I'm not putting down Gadiel or anyone else for the great accomplishments. Everyone has their style, and I'm cool with that.

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

I can't answer any but the last.

If you want big power the AVO600 >>>> SR55.

I don't even know if the SR55 really would do well at over 400WHP based on what I've seen and heard.

The AVO600 is based on the -14 CHRA, which is a 65lb/min wheel. I believe teh SR55 is based of the -12 or -18? If so those are in the 55lb.min range. I'd have to dig up the specs. The DR65 is the 65lb/min wheel, but in a larger side mount housing. If I remember right that green wrx was in the 10s with a DR65.

Jeff

Good luck to ya!

Vent off only one runner? Too complicated/restrictive to do both?

I predict red rocket

Hmm? I'll have to admit I don't get it. Did red rocket do something? Is there a yellow rocket involved? ;)

Jeff

Good luck to ya!

Vent off only one runner? Too complicated/restrictive to do both?

Since the turbo is twin scroll, the theory is that the exhaust pulses need to be seperate from the header all the way to the turbo. Indeed, if they are cross connected, you could reduce or eliminate the advantage of twin scroll. In the previous version, I had both the scroll outputs meet at the wastegate. While the distance to the wastegate may have been enough to make to cross contamination effect less, I wanted to try something different. Having the wastegate on only one exhaust path will work, but will limit how low of a boost setup I can run ( not a problem).

As for the vent to ground after the wastegate, I'm just looking for efficiency improvements.

Jeff

You could always run 2 wastegates.... haha.

I predict red rocket

Also, what's with the Axis of evil? I'm not sure I would catagorize you or V6turbo as evil. At least you seem like fine chaps to me.

Jeff

Sorry for the lack of updates. I was out of the country for 3 weeks, and am just getting things back in order. I pulled the motor out of the car to make a few changes:

(1) I currently have Spec C heads with Jun Cams. I am putting larger valves, porting, and stiffer valve springs in to allow a bit higher rev.

(2) I'm getting a modifed header/exhaust manifold with a few changes - one is to vent the wastegate off only one runner (twin scroll), and the other is to vent the wastegate to the ground.

(3) I'm adding NOS for spoolup. Something simple like a 50shot that turns off once boost breaks 15psi or so.

I'll have the headwork completed in about 2 weeks, and should have the car on the dyno in 3. The drag season opens here in a few weeks, and I'm looking foward to pushing it.

Once thing for sure. When I get in the 10s, and I will, I will not only post the complete modification list, I will also post the datalogs, and the UTEC map. No insult meant to anyone else about this... and I'm not putting down Gadiel or anyone else for the great accomplishments. Everyone has their style, and I'm cool with that.

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com
new utec firmware, jeff finally getting his car back together...

the next few weeks should be good! :)

You could always run 2 wastegates.... haha.

Just what I was thinking :devil:

They wouldn't have to be big, just 2 of the the smallest TiALs.

Yeah but 2 waste gates are twice as expensive as 1 ;)

Pfft, drop in the bucket on this setup.

They wouldn't have to be big, just 2 of the the smallest TiALs.

Yep, exactly what I was thinking. Two small ones would work, but I think given my high boost threshold, one will work.. It's not like I mind running 30psi. ;)

I'll have some pictures of the head work up once I get that done, and I'm always looking for feedback.

As for the new UTEC firmware.. ;) It looks very very good. Very good.

Jeff
PDXTuning.com

Yep, exactly what I was thinking. Two small ones would work, but I think given my high boost threshold, one will work.. It's not like I mind running 30psi. ;)

I'll have some pictures of the head work up once I get that done, and I'm always looking for feedback.

As for the new UTEC firmware.. ;) It looks very very good. Very good.

Jeff
PDXTuning.com
man...im getting really stoked for this new firmware!! i kinda knew something good was coming...simply because we havent heard anything from txs in a while...

I would like to see something that makes my OBDII port say everything is OK so I can pass inspection with it ;)

Also, what's with the Axis of evil? I'm not sure I would catagorize you or V6turbo as evil. At least you seem like fine chaps to me.

Jeff
Thats because YOU GET US.
its the other 90% that just see us post, its not what they want to hear, and immediately dismiss us as jerks. *shrug*

BTW jeff, you are a friggin madman. A turbo so large it takes a 50 shot to get it to spool to 13PSI quickly is just nuts. That cars going to be a MONSTER :eek:

BTW jeff, you are a friggin madman. A turbo so large it takes a 50 shot to get it to spool to 13PSI quickly is just nuts. That cars going to be a MONSTER :eek:I'm looking forward to seeing the results! It sounds like everyone else is, too.

that will take 6 months to spool....

This car is going to be awesome and it will be awesome if you do indeed post maps and datalogs, very generous of you.

that will take 6 months to spool....


that was classic....... and agree

I'll have the headwork completed in about 2 weeks, and should have the car on the dyno in 3. The drag season opens here in a few weeks, and I'm looking foward to pushing it.

Once thing for sure. When I get in the 10s, and I will, I will not only post the complete modification list, I will also post the datalogs, and the UTEC map. No insult meant to anyone else about this... and I'm not putting down Gadiel or anyone else for the great accomplishments. Everyone has their style, and I'm cool with that.

Jeff Sponaugle
PDXTuning.com

That's why I love reading your post, there alway so full of details and R&D info. Thanks Jeff.

^ what he said. Thanks a lot for sharing your insight with us, yet again.

Nice setup, looking forward to see those great numbers.

i think this car spooled at about 4500-5000 when he ran it before...? is that right jeff?

that will take 6 months to spool....

hahahah.. I rolled off my chair.

Yes, these large turbos leave something to be desired when it comes to spool. I was out on the track with Tim a few months ago, and his green equiped car was much eaiser to drive fast, and the power band made corner exits much eaiser. I'm doing this whole GT40 thing more as an experiment to see how the large turbine housing, combined with some good headwork and higher flow can net some top end power.

Around town, without NOS at least, this is a dog of a turbo. Once you get on boil, it's a riot.

Keep in mind I still have the Green-8cm, and I keep it because I swap it back on occassionly to get the nice mid-range torque. All of the other PDX guys pretty much make fun of me for my lag machine. ;)

One of the other interesting things about adding NOS is the additional fuel that gets added to the system. With my current setup (PE800s at 52psi static fp), as I approach 30psi I will be out of fuel room, even at a leaner 12:1 for c-16. By adding a NOS wet kit, I am effectivly adding a 1000ccs more fuel injection capability... As long as the fuel pump can keep up, it is an easy way to jump up in HP a lot.

The obvious downside for me is the open track racing. At the track, I really can't use NOS, so I will have to keep the revs up pretty high, probably in the 6-8k range all of the time. That makes the engine work that much harder, especially the oil pump, and engine pumping losses.

Hmm.. Perhaps a sequential turbo setup would be better. ;)

Jeff

dry sump? ;)

i think this car spooled at about 4500-5000 when he ran it before...? is that right jeff?

Under good load, it is in the 4500-5000 range, but in something like first gear, it really doesn't jump up until 5k runs past. I am very curious how the change to a single scroll vent thur wastegate makes a difference.. Also, I am not running AVCS now since I have Jun 272 cams...That might also make things a bit worse.

Jeff

dry sump? ;)

Funny you mention this. Sean just called me and asked if I was interested in giving one a try. I might do this, just to see how it works. It may not be needed, but hey, what fun to install!
Jeff

im trying to remember if i have seen WGs with dual inlets...? also, seriously 2 tial 35mms would be so FGUCKING cool!!! i can think of amillion ways to mount them to look VERY cool!

youre looking at under 200 for each one, thats just about what a single 44mm costs

why dont you just get a .82 a/r housing or something, the one you started with was HUGE!!! and i think it might be wise to swap out...?

hahaa i just posted 4 times! that was fun!

Hmm.. Perhaps a sequential turbo setup would be better. ;)

Jeff
Doesn't Subaru make a Sequential JDM setup :confused: Think there is one on EBAY now. I was going to get one a long time ago. When I did a lil background research it will only fit in LHD car cause turbo #2 will hit our steering column :(

i didnt think that was a seq set up... i thought it was a true twin setup where both turbos are equal in size...? that would be cool to customize if it was seq... any other info?

i didnt think that was a seq set up... i thought it was a true twin setup where both turbos are equal in size...? that would be cool to customize if it was seq... any other info?
It was at least 2 years ago that I searched all that stuff. I found a Australian place that posted a how to swap it in but, they said it would only work for LHD's. Don't remember if it was a 250HP or a 280HP engine with stock boost but they said there was no lag at all. It pulled from idle to redline :D

interesting!

It was at least 2 years ago that I searched all that stuff. I found a Australian place that posted a how to swap it in but, they said it would only work for LHD's. Don't remember if it was a 250HP or a 280HP engine with stock boost but they said there was no lag at all. It pulled from idle to redline :D

I think you mean that it will only work on RHD cars.

I think you mean that it will only work on RHD cars.
Uh yeah...my bad :rolleyes:

The TT motor setup is frankly junk from the factory. Turbos are too small, and different sized. One has a really strange flange on it for the opening and closing of the exhaust flow to it. Both qui8ckly overspeed and nuke if pushed much past stock power. Inlet tract for them is horrible. etc

that said a full up aftermarket setup will be better, but still no such thing as a free lunch

hahaa i just posted 4 times! that was fun!

hey, me too.... :rolleyes:

anyway, a TT must have new turbo's anyway. stock they spool at idle.

Subscribed :D

These guys carry fairly inexpensive wastegates. turbocalculator (http://turbocalculator.com/sale-wastegates.php)

I may try a few generic ones myself.

have you been able to get this done yet? im going to be converting my GP header to twin scroll and im still also trying to figure out weather to run the external gate off one or both runners. Im thinking maybe I should use the 38mm gate i have now, and get another one, and run them both off each runner. the cool part about that is that im thinking maybe by getting different sized springs for like 10 and 15 psi or something like that, I would be able to run so many different boost settings and maybe do some creative things with it...? if thats not an option ill run both runners into one gate, and see how that works.

my main question for you jeff is what was spool like, and what exhaust housing did you end up with? im probly going to use either a .58 a/r t4 p trim housing or a .70 divided to take full advantage of the twin scroll.

So.. Are the Gt40/37 kits for sale yet? And whats included into the kit! Did u ever get this kit onto the dyno?

Well, I figured out the best way to spool up this turbo faster.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/openhouse/openhouse_cars07.jpg

I using two 37 wastegates, one on each side with a custom manifold. The picture above shows the GT35R setup, but I'll be putting my GT3740 on instead. One scroll off each side of the motor.

The motor above has forged H6 8.0:1 pistons in it, and I'll add sleves and rods to mine before dropping it in.

jeff

holy balls

I thought that FAT had proven that if you have two turbos leading to one manifold, they fight each other on the way in. Perhaps having seperate manifolds would be wise.

So is that a 3.0 or a 3.3?

He said twinscroll not twin turbo if I understood correctly. Props to you Jeff and keep the info coming not like I have nay doubt you will. =P

I thought that FAT had proven that if you have two turbos leading to one manifold, they fight each other on the way in. Perhaps having seperate manifolds would be wise.

So is that a 3.0 or a 3.3?

Twin scroll not twin turbo. The GT3740 that I already have is a twin scroll turbine side. On my 2.5L I was running with a single wastegate so the two scrolls were effectivly mixed near the bottom of the turbo. I ordered two Tial 37mm wastegates with the intention of putting them both venting to ground near the G3750 on my 2.5. Now that I have an H6 to install, I'll use those two wastegates to pipe from each side.

These motors are the 04/05 JDM EZ30R, 3.0L. This first engine has the pistons replaced with custom 8.0:1 forged units. Everything else is stock.
While these will fit in the Impreza, it will require some custom work to make the U-brace work, as well as to get the exhaut plumbing. Wiring is also obviously custom, and of course you need and ECU that does 6 cylinders. EcuTek has been very helpful in partnering with us to get mapping capability for the JDM and US 6-cylinder ECUs. We are also working with Hydra, who has a 6-clylinder capable unit for us.

Jeff

jeff, you and your crew never cease to amaze and impress me.

cudos to you all, and thanks for the inspiration.

i can't wait to see what's next! :banana:

ken

jeff whats the weight difference between the this and the 257?

Holy crap... That H-6 with the wrinkle red is a piece of artwork. What is your target power?

3740 with a built EZ... I bet 650whp+

that thing is goignto fit in an impreza this should be great!

Holy crap... That H-6 with the wrinkle red is a piece of artwork.

Its also a plastic manifold.

Jeff, are you going to do any head work on the H6 for your car? Or maybe see what this engine does before deciding on that?

Wow, you guys do some of the coolest stuff!

I was wondering though, is that the stock plastic manifold that you just painted?

If I'm wrong please correct me, but Subaru only puts plastic on the lower performance engines right? The STI and the WRX don't have plastic manifolds right? Only things like the legacy and the NA cars have plastic manifolds.

Does that mean that Subaru is worried about the longevity of the plastic manifolds on high HP, high air flow engines? or why else would Subaru not go to all plastic intake manifolds on their rally cars?

HOLY BALLS IS RIGHT.

Do I want to know what a JDM EZ30 is worth? probably not,but cool to think about.

If I had to guess reason to avoid plastic manifold would be long term dimensional stabilty.

Maybe someone with a great deal more knowledge(almost everyone) can answer this.I have an ex gf in plastic engineering come to think probably using plastic product on/in her gf.
Ed : :eek:

I thought that FAT had proven that if you have two turbos leading to one manifold, they fight each other on the way in. Perhaps having seperate manifolds would be wise.

So is that a 3.0 or a 3.3?
FAT did not prove this, the problem was caused by Roberts header design, he apparently did not know the timing of the subaru motor, so he fed each turbo off of one bank, so they received uneven exhaust pulses causing them to fight each other, with a proper header it would have worked well. But like jeff said, its Twin scroll.;)

I am also doing this, with a slightly different setup, Jeff likes to copy me:lol: jk, jeff is the man.

;)

Ben

The intake manifold is plastic, the walls are 8mm thick, subaru engineers are not stupid obviously. The Legacy manifold is also plastic, and has held Jarrad's GT30R so far. If I knew the actual composite I(or probably Jarrad since he is a materials engineer) could give you a better idea of how it compares to the aluminum manifold in terms of material properties.

Also, the EZ30 is not that expensive how we got them, but to build them up for this type of performance and get all the required items is very expensive.

Ben

FAT did not prove this, the problem was caused by Roberts header design, he apparently did not know the timing of the subaru motor, so he fed each turbo off of one bank, so they received uneven exhaust pulses causing them to fight each other, with a proper header it would have worked well. But like jeff said, its Twin scroll.;)


Just to clarify that point in case anyone is in doubt:
on an H4 pairing by bank is bad but
on an H6 pairing by bank is good
- just the way the exhaust pulse phasing works out and that applies to twin turbos or a single twin-scroll turbo.

H6 3l firing order 1 6 3 2 5 4 bore 89.2 mm stroke 80 mm

H4 2.5l firing order 1 3 2 4 bore 99.5 mm stroke 79 mm

http://www.pfyc.com/store/graphics/new/vt3038.jpg


"Plastic" has been used for high HP intake manifolds for quite some time.

Well, I figured out the best way to spool up this turbo faster.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/openhouse/openhouse_cars07.jpg

I using two 37 wastegates, one on each side with a custom manifold. The picture above shows the GT35R setup, but I'll be putting my GT3740 on instead. One scroll off each side of the motor.

The motor above has forged H6 8.0:1 pistons in it, and I'll add sleves and rods to mine before dropping it in.

jeff



From my turbo knowledge, using a tangental divided housing would be best utilised by combining exhaust pulses from related cylinders to keep exhaust gas velocity up. Using common firing cylinders would be the best way to do this. So basically you need to combine the pairs of cylinders based on their firing sequence, not based on their location.

I'm glad to see you used two wastegates, that helps as well.

From my turbo knowledge, using a tangental divided housing would be best utilised by combining exhaust pulses from related cylinders to keep exhaust gas velocity up. Using common firing cylinders would be the best way to do this. So basically you need to combine the pairs of cylinders based on their firing sequence, not based on their location.

I'm glad to see you used two wastegates, that helps as well.
you are correct, and if you looked and read the few posts right above yours...you would see that this is what he is doing, if you know how to read the ignition timing sequence and you know the engine layout, you would know that having each bank combine is the best way for this H6 and the correct way, while it is incorrect on the H4.

trust me, we at PDXTuning are well aware of what we are doing;)

thanks for the suggestions though, you are correct in your recommendation.

Ben

you are correct, and if you looked and read the few posts right above yours...you would see that this is what he is doing, if you know how to read the ignition timing sequence and you know the engine layout, you would know that having each bank combine is the best way for this H6 and the correct way, while it is incorrect on the H4.

trust me, we at PDXTuning are well aware of what we are doing;)

thanks for the suggestions though, you are correct in your recommendation.

Ben

actually, as i look at the firing order, it looks like you're trying to NOT combine pulses, but rather spread them out evenly.

From my turbo knowledge, using a tangental divided housing would be best utilised by combining exhaust pulses from related cylinders to keep exhaust gas velocity up. Using common firing cylinders would be the best way to do this. So basically you need to combine the pairs of cylinders based on their firing sequence, not based on their location.


vent, imo, you're right in that big, high velocity pulses would create the best spool up, but it doesn't necessarily mean the best overall performance, since you would be trying to evacuate cylinders into an already "full" exhaust manifold. that means increased backpressure and pumping losses and lower VE. the lumpy subie unequal length header exhaust note isn't the best for VE.

jm2c
ken

haha, you are correct I must have misunderstood him, or not read thoroughly myself(which happens from time to time:))
we are trying to spread them out evenly to give the turbo consistent spool. One of the benefits of the divided housing and supposed reasons behind it, is the more separated you can keep each pulse, the less molested, and hence less energy is lost on its way to the turbine so more energy can be put into spooling the turbo. Having them setup with that type of way and firing order will keep them evenly spaced to each side and cut down on turbulence inside the runners on the way to the turbo.

I would be curious to see how combining different cylinders actually does effect spoolup by either helping or hurting, if pdx gets a chance maybe we will test the difference on the dyno and make up a couple different configurations.

Ben

someone should come out with a set of cam grinds such that you could swap ignition circuits for 1+2 (or 3+4) and change the firing order on the 4 cyl engines to be odd-even-odd-even.

it might improve VE much like an equal length does.

it would certainly make for easier twinscroll plumbing! ;)

Yeah it seems as if i was misunderstood..... Ok though because since i saw the thread going technically applicated, i thought i would chime in.


So as you were saying, you are looking to equalize the pulse or utilise the tangental divided housing for it's "theoretically" technical purpose?


IMHO with that hot side a/r i would atleast want that turbo to come in around 3400rpm, utilising the hotside for what it was intended to do, but that creates all sorts of problems. Equal length headers from individual cylinders can create a exhaust networking nightmare.

I was just curious about the setup since i have read it from page 1, and i recognise the turbo trim from previous applications that i have worked on. I too, know what is up in the world of turbocharging therefore i was not mocking, but merely trying to add an alternate angle in your construction.

So, after all of that, are you looking to utilise the positive pulse from individual cylinders or equalise the input into the turbocharger housing....? If you count your cylinders per bank that you are combining from, and recognise your firing order, how would equalising each bank effectively happen, since we are working with an unequalised pulse from the get go, under each head's characteristic.

In any sense, i was curious since i am new to the Subaru world, but definitely not new to the world of forced induction. I'm interested in your setup and how it turns out.

someone should come out with a set of cam grinds such that you could swap ignition circuits for 1+2 (or 3+4) and change the firing order on the 4 cyl engines to be odd-even-odd-even.

it might improve VE much like an equal length does.

it would certainly make for easier twinscroll plumbing! ;)


thank you for taking the time to read my post and see where my comments came from. If you actually sit down and look at your compression, firing order, primary lengths and collector design, it is actually much more productive to spend the time and collect the pulses accordingly. You would never be trying to fill a collector you would be cramming it, which is why turbo collector designs are crucial. Evacuating a cylinder is not the function of a high pressure positive manifold pressure designed mill. Directing and controlling is.



BTW... i am building a t-61 p trim dual BB ITS design turbo on a 2.9 liter vr6 VW Motor, with JE pistons, crower rods, 268 cams, etc etc etc.. it's off the wall. I built it myself in my garage... LOL

here

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/ventodan/MK4/DSC00113.jpg


i'm going tangental divided with an equal length header design next season, and upping to a t-71 Q trim.. good times

someone should come out with a set of cam grinds such that you could swap ignition circuits for 1+2 (or 3+4) and change the firing order on the 4 cyl engines to be odd-even-odd-even.

it might improve VE much like an equal length does.

it would certainly make for easier twinscroll plumbing! ;)



You could run a 50-50 crank style, sorry a 180degree crank shaft design, like they use in high revving v8's.All things considered, there was discussion about getting the motor to spool the turbo sooner. None of this contributes to making the turbo spool sooner, it makes it less difficult to plumb, but more difficult to setup from every other dynamic of this buildup.

Yeah it seems as if i was misunderstood..... Ok though because since i saw the thread going technically applicated, i thought i would chime in.


So as you were saying, you are looking to equalize the pulse or utilise the tangental divided housing for it's "theoretically" technical purpose?


IMHO with that hot side a/r i would atleast want that turbo to come in around 3400rpm, utilising the hotside for what it was intended to do, but that creates all sorts of problems. Equal length headers from individual cylinders can create a exhaust networking nightmare.

I was just curious about the setup since i have read it from page 1, and i recognise the turbo trim from previous applications that i have worked on. I too, know what is up in the world of turbocharging therefore i was not mocking, but merely trying to add an alternate angle in your construction.

So, after all of that, are you looking to utilise the positive pulse from individual cylinders or equalise the input into the turbocharger housing....? If you count your cylinders per bank that you are combining from, and recognise your firing order, how would equalising each bank effectively happen, since we are working with an unequalised pulse from the get go, under each head's characteristic.

In any sense, i was curious since i am new to the Subaru world, but definitely not new to the world of forced induction. I'm interested in your setup and how it turns out.

Well, I will let Jeff speak about the housings vs. spool up times, he has done the testing or has seen enough examples to know and to compare and contrast for you.

i agree with you, creating regular style NA equal length header would be very hard to do. When you are referring to the positive pulse, are you referring to particular primary tuning to utilize scavaging, or am I misunderstanding again? If you know more about this topic please let me know, I am always open and wanting to learn more, here are my previous ideas and plans for my setup(I cant speak directly for Jeff, he likely has all the right answers;))

From what I have read and been told(both of which could be incorrect) primary(and secondary) tuning to effectively use positive or negative pulses is MUCH more effective in a NA application and less emphasis can be placed on it on a FI setup, where it is the goal to get the exhaust gases routed to the turbo as quickly and efficiently as possible. that is not to say you dont try to keep the path equal, but you might instead have much shorter equal primaries into a longer secondary. If there were to be any concern for any type of tuning, I would do it for lower rpm ranges to help off boost/spool up also taking into account the intake manifold runner length I am doing as well. I am just going to do a shorter equal length primary(taking into account exhaust port runner length), equal length connectors 3 into 1 then each secondary equal length going to one side of the divided inlet. If there is a better way you know of please let me know, I understand it would be better creating all completely equal length individual runners all the way to the turbo where they merge, however, like you said yourself that is very difficult with packaging restraints.

As for the collectors, I guess i dont understand what you mean exactly, if you could give me an example that would be great, are you concerned I would not do them equal or smooth enough?
Also, what do you mean by the pulse being unequal to begin with due to the head design the actual exhaust ports from the head being unequal, the firing order...again please let me know, I dont have all the answers I just want to try and understand and hopefully learn.

(sorry to butt in Jeff, but this can be considered a technical discussion i think that will help others(myself included)). Feel free to chime in.

Ben

That turbo is the size of my head.............................................. ........





http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/ventodan/MK4/DSC00113.jpg


:devil:

Well, I figured out the best way to spool up this turbo faster.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/openhouse/openhouse_cars07.jpg

I using two 37 wastegates, one on each side with a custom manifold. The picture above shows the GT35R setup, but I'll be putting my GT3740 on instead. One scroll off each side of the motor.

The motor above has forged H6 8.0:1 pistons in it, and I'll add sleves and rods to mine before dropping it in.

jeff



Is a turbo side engine picture available?

^^^^
this particular set-up is going into the Perrin 2006 STi for its SEMA debut.

I have seen this engine close up and the header is designed just like a stock manifold, crossover tube and all, converging into a Perrin up-pipe w/ an external gate.

This is NOT Sponaugle's engine with a twin scroll on it.

Just to clarify

Steve

So pairing one bank to one turbo, and the other bank to another turbo is really bad for the H4? Bad in terms of spool? Bad in terms of max power?

Why did Subaru do it with the JDM twin turbo Legacy? Or did I not look at this engine carefully enough at the shop I saw it in?

def

jeez...thats huge

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/GT40Install6.jpg

Cheers,
Jeff Sponaugle

Are you using 2 aftermarket knock sensors? This helps out because I was just wondering where to put mine on the left side of this picture. Are these locations optimal?

Thanks,
Justin

Well, I figured out the best way to spool up this turbo faster.

http://www.pdxtuning.com/nasioc/openhouse/openhouse_cars07.jpg

I using two 37 wastegates, one on each side with a custom manifold. The picture above shows the GT35R setup, but I'll be putting my GT3740 on instead. One scroll off each side of the motor.

The motor above has forged H6 8.0:1 pistons in it, and I'll add sleves and rods to mine before dropping it in.

jeff
Has no one commented that this is an obvious photoshop?

-Tom

Has no one commented that this is an obvious photoshop?

-Tom


That's because it's not. Go look for the PDXTuning open day pictures in the NW Forum. You can see this engine in the background of some of them.

Has no one commented that this is an obvious photoshop?

-Tom

I don't know about that...

def

That's because it's not. Go look for the PDXTuning open day pictures in the NW Forum. You can see this engine in the background of some of them.

Mick of course is right.
http://pdxtuning.com/nasioc/openhouse/openhouse_people13.jpg

Check out the lines between the manifold to TB, manifold to head. How the hell did a photograph make them *that* fuzzy. Goofy.

-Tom

Check out the lines between the manifold to TB, manifold to head. How the hell did a photograph make them *that* fuzzy. Goofy.

-Tom

Sorry, it's real. Fuzzy picture it maybe, but 100% real it is.

What I hate about the above picture is the guy on the left is standing in front on my block! It's almost as sexy as the H6, honest

Has no one commented that this is an obvious photoshop?

-Tom
:lol:

thanks, that was good:) This is in fact a real motor.

Also about the knock sensors, they come with 2 sensors from the factory in those locations.

dug-e-fresh, the twin turbo car headers do pair opposite cylinders, at least the ones i have seen.

Ben

they're actually three IT guys standing in front of a green screen of the garage I dreamed about last night. thanks CDW! :lol:

Check out the next issue of Subie Sport, I think they photo chopped it also.

Awesome looking setup!

Did you guys have fun with the timing chain setup? Looks like something from Gotham city when you first open one of those motors up.

Mike

a photochop? yeah your right, shadows are all wrong. Anyways, looks like it should be a fun motor.

I'm thinking I am going to need an H6 to spool my new Turbo :confused: :lol:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTQ4NDU1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

What are your power goals with that setup?

Not you 2002WRXSTi ;)

I'm thinking I am going to need an H6 to spool my new Turbo :confused: :lol:
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTQ4NDU1NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Wow, that turbo is huge :eek: ... What you mean its not real :confused:

"they're real and they're spectacular!" :lol:

For those who think this is a chop... I dunno what to say, look for the next issue of Subiesport in November (and pick up a copy of the current issue for the new 06 on Pikes Peak.) Actually, the photo that will be in Subiesport isn't a photochop at all. My camera just has a bad habbit of adding extra cylinders.

For those who think this is a chop... I dunno what to say, look for the next issue of Subiesport in November (and pick up a copy of the current issue for the new 06 on Pikes Peak.) Actually, the photo that will be in Subiesport isn't a photochop at all. My camera just has a bad habbit of adding extra cylinders.

:banana:

OMG, that is one big king kong snail there... You could cram the entire TD04 into the turbine!

Has no one commented that this is an obvious photoshop?

-Tom

Well I'll be like the third to chime in and say if thats a chop, it's a damn good one.

When I was at the shop tonight, that thing seemed to have 6 cylinders, right before my eyes even :eek: .

Dirty buggers :lol:

with their lies :devil:

:lol:

cant wait to see the looks on faces from SEMA when they peer into the engine compartment expecting to see "Just another dressed up STi engine bay" :huh:


Steve

Subaru must have chopped this one, too!

http://www.99percent.com/temp/p1110016.jpg

Oh, wait...

:lol:

Bump for updates

Sorry, it's real. Fuzzy picture it maybe, but 100% real it is.

What I hate about the above picture is the guy on the left is standing in front on my block! It's almost as sexy as the H6, honest

Hey! I'm WAY sexier than that block! :D

BTW, somebody better call Perrin and tell him he didn't drive the car down to SEMA with that engine in the car. And somebody better tell his wife that he really wasn't working till midnight for like 2 weeks before the show working on it either.... My memory of running extra wires for the harness, of tuning the car (yes, it pulls), making 3 or 4 trips to the parts store, begging them at closing to let me in to get parts... I gotta stop drinking :lol:

Remember when some of us starting putting 2.5Ls in our WRX's? This WILL be the next big thing IMO (its just a LOT more work).

Hey! I'm WAY sexier than that block! :D

BTW, somebody better call Perrin and tell him he didn't drive the car down to SEMA with that engine in the car. And somebody better tell his wife that he really wasn't working till midnight for like 2 weeks before the show working on it either.... My memory of running extra wires for the harness, of tuning the car (yes, it pulls), making 3 or 4 trips to the parts store, begging them at closing to let me in to get parts... I gotta stop drinking :lol:

Remember when some of us starting putting 2.5Ls in our WRX's? This WILL be the next big thing IMO (its just a LOT more work).

What sort of power did the car make?

I'm interested cause I have a H6 project underway here so it's interesting seeing what others have gotten from one. Was the motor built beyond pistons?

Mike

There wasn't enough time to get it to the dyno, and it was decided not to push it too hard a week before the show anyway. Uncharted territory for the most part, the car needed to be driven to SEMA... you get the idea :)

I'm sure when he gets back it'll go on the dyno.

Perrin's car has just the piston's changed out.

I have a few questions before I buy this AVO600 turbo for my 04 STI.

What are the comp and turbine wheel sizes.
What are the comp and turbine housing sizes
What PSI of boost did you make the 427 WHP

In your opinion do you think the AVO600 is a better turbo than the APS SR55. Please all the info you can give me will be great.

Thanks Andreas Miko



holy crap, i havent seen Andreas since my nissan days! hey, you still got that 400something whp B13 SE-R?

(i'll admit i havent checked up on SR20forum in a long time)