Just finish tuning at Vishnu... Very happy with the results.
310whp on 91oct.
355whp on 100oct.
FP Green
Injectors
Fuel pump
vishnu TBE with cat
xede

+ SpearCo TMIC...

congrats...just make sure u're not runnin to much boost.

I hear you had a few problems... Hope everything works out for the better. Im running 21 lbs.. on 100oct. didn't want to push it too much..

I didn't want to push it too much..
Haha...nice term, I don't think Shiv will forget that saying for a while.
That was and still is a mess :(

I have moved on.

For some reason that 21#s don't sound right...since other guys runnin 350ish r closer to 24 psi, from what i hear. :confused:

Neways have fun.

The guage points to 21? ... What are the plans for your car...

... What are the plans for your car...

Go Faster, thats already in the works ;)

Remember to trim the rubber ducting on ur hood to fully expose the new intercooler.

markg, just curious...but what happened exactly?

long story....to sum it up and avoid a war on nasioc,...
For u that may not know i had/have a Vishnu stage 2+
The motor is toast and now Vishnu and me have parted ways.

long story....to sum it up and avoid a war on nasioc,...
For u that may not know i had/have a Vishnu stage 2+
The motor is toast and now Vishnu and me have parted ways.

Mark....I don't know you or Shiv. I have met Shiv when he tuned my WRX. I have heard most of the story, but you know how forums work. No telling how much of what I heard has been true. Just wanted you to know that I think the above is a very stand-up way of handling the situation on here. Enough has been said by and about both sides and its easily found by anyone really interested. I wish you luck with your new motor.

I just bought an 05 STi a couple of days ago. Please let me know who tunes it and how everything works out for ya. Its a mess what has happened, but at least your problems may save me a motor. Again, Good luck.

long story....to sum it up and avoid a war on nasioc,...
For u that may not know i had/have a Vishnu stage 2+
The motor is toast and now Vishnu and me have parted ways.

Sorry to hear of your loss :furious:

Well I have no idea what happened but there are a lot of stories some about Bill Knowles that I am personally aware of, and I have heard some things about Vishnu. Being that you were one of the first guys with this setup. It would be good to tell us about your problem so that we can avoid making the mistake. For example, my friend Whit, was totally left hanging from Bill with a car that was barely driveable bucking,stalling all because after several hours (after a recommendation from Mike at Gruppe-s ) Bill refused to put an MBC on to solve the inability of ecutek to control boost . Making the car driveable was less important to him than his own personally philosophy of controlling boost through ecutek. What's even more amazing is that he said Whit would have to drive the car to LA (from SF Bay Area) so that he can drill out the pill so that he can control boost better. I talked to Invisguard and he had a similar experience with this tuner. Anyway,Mike ( Gruppe-s) fixed the car the next day with an MBC and also made the offer to tune it to 300/300 or it would be free (the car made about 260 in the hands of Bill). He got it within 10hp, and Whit offered to pay half. Let's be perfectly honest some of these "professionals" are really not professional. Some people have had good experiences with tuners and others bad. It's good to put the information out there so that we can make up our minds for ourselves.

I personally want to know what happened because I am considering an xede.

Go to EvoM and check out the vishnu page. To lazy to add the link

On another note can you post your dynograph for your 91 octance I would like to compare it to my run SR40 on the gruppe-s dyno. The dynos are pretty close, reading have been within a few hp.

...this is why i have comfort in knowing i put the parts in my car and tuned the car myself. no one to blame but myself if anything goes wrong.

Well I read up on it and sorry about your loss. If you knew it was an agressive tune, than you knew it had a chance to go. It was probably too much torque and the bearing spun. I can understand how you might have been under the impression that they were going to hook you up, but the price came as no bargain. Even when a tuner says it should be safe when you mod your car you always take that chance. Your power was at very high levels. Even stock motors sometimes go. Cut your losses, lessons learned, and all that s**t.

Anytime someone claims "blown motor" they best be posting ALL the details at hand. Remember, when people throw around slanderous accusations, they're potentially messing with someone elses livelyhood. So post facts, not insinuations please.

The tuners I've talked with have all had very interesting "other sides" to their stories when people have posted "he blew up my motor" stories on the internet. Take what you read on the internet with a grain of salt is all I'm saying.

All details, or no details at all.

nortparksti, do you have a dynograph of the 91

Actually, I think he's done it quite well. He didn't slam anyone in this thread. On the contrary, he's rather diplomatically sidestepping the appropriate questions.

Messing with someone's livelyhood? Doubtful, but YMMV...

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com

The whole thing sounds a little shady to me. I know there are two sides to every story, but I think if it was Shiv's shop car/beta tester he should have helped out at least a little with setting the guy up with a new engine. I'm not talking a brand new built engine or anything, just helping him get set back up (50/50 or 25/75) with a stock STi motor - could even be a used one to help offset the price...

In addition, if you're a professional tuner and somebody is telling you "push the engine as hard as it will go" I think it is pretty much a given that they want you to push it to the limit without blowing it up, right? How hard is it to say, "In my professional opinion if we push it any further it is most likely going to blow so I refuse to push it further. I am cutting off the power at this whp, wtq, boost, and A/F level." If you're a professional, I don't see how that can really be hard to say. Isn't this what makes you a professional tuner, so you can advise against this and refuse to tune further if you think it is harmful to the engine??? I know you can't reimburse every person that blows their engine if you are a professional tuner, but I really think this situation could have been avoided, and once it occurred, could have been remedied better/easier than it was. jmho

Actually, I think he's done it quite well. He didn't slam anyone in this thread. On the contrary, he's rather diplomatically sidestepping the appropriate questions.

Messing with someone's livelyhood? Doubtful, but YMMV...

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
I did state my case on Evolutionm...already, and i feel @ this point there is no need to bring my troubles here, as i have said i have moved on.


I was a big time Vishnu customer/booster beforehand, and my car was being
used to promote their stage 2/2+ setup...until u know, it died. :(
U may recall my STI, it was the white one that raced a red 03 SRT10 viper...we had Vids all over the place.


i felt it was the right thing to do, by going public.

Neways best of luck the the rest of the guys runnin a 2+ on a STI.

mnavarro,

I have dynographs of both maps. I'll load them up asap. My PC isn't working right now, and I can't open them on my Mac. I'll get them up here.. Shiv also said he was going to post them, so maybe he can do it sooner than I can..

Mark can you link to the story? I dont go on that forum and dont know where to begin looking. I would appreciate it.

TIA,

~v6

i don't know if i want to bring that drama over here...v6
I stand behind my posts, but i don't quite have the time/desire to fend of attackers, as was the case on Evom, as this has worn me down.

Link #1 (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=113447&page=3&pp=15)

Link #2 (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=112859&page=3&pp=15)

PS I love to hear all those Evo owners talk shlt about how crappy the STi engine is. Nice.

EDIT: erased some personal opinions...

Sorry MARKGSTI, but I think lots on here would like to know.

I think MarkGSTI is handling it the right way by showing restraint. I think Shiv's comments about Mark, who is a customer that has spent a lot of money and was a beta tester, are insight into how he thinks about customers. Ultimately he resorts to name calling. This is unprofessional and unnecessary, Mark is the one who is already sitting on a blown engine, talk about adding insult to injury. Even if the customer's expectations are unrealistic, to slam your customer like that is BS.

I think MarkGSTI is handling it the right way by showing restraint. I think Shiv's comments about Mark, who is a customer that has spent a lot of money and was a beta tester, are insight into how he thinks about customers. Ultimately he resorts to name calling. This is unprofessional and unnecessary, Mark is the one who is already sitting on a blown engine, talk about adding insult to injury. Even if the customer's expectations are unrealistic, to slam your customer like that is BS.
Thank U

I think this whole thing sucks and I wish your story was posted here (Where it actually matters) Why it only made it to the EVo forums is beyond me.

Regaurdless of who is right the story should be heard here I think.

~v6

p.s. "Tell them its the tranny" If thats not a "Cover my ass" comment I dont know what is. Its funny to because I heard about your day at the track without knowing who it was and I was worried about my tranny after... The way false information travels pisses me off :furious:

Question for the tuners on this thread: do you confidently feel you know exactly where the limits of the stock STi block are? From my research motors have gone with basic mods all the way to over 400whp. Everyone seems to agree the ring lands, pistons and main bearings are a weak point but what seems to be in question is exactly where the limit lies. Careful tuning though seems to be a common point of agreement.

Mark, just read the thread over at EVOM. Sorry about your particular situation. I think it was handled poorly by Vishnu. The "just tell them it's the transmission" is just plain slimy.

Well I read up on it and sorry about your loss. If you knew it was an agressive tune, than you knew it had a chance to go. It was probably too much torque and the bearing spun.

Interestingly enough when I was Vishnu with Mark's brother Tom(GT35R'd evo) David(i think it was David?) made a comment to me about Shiv being somewhat worried about the FP Green setup making too much torque early on on STi's...from the sound of it you guys were just pushing hot air when you went with the aggressive tune...no HP increase and just TQ increases usually mean that you're pushing the turbo way out of its efficiency range. At least thats how I remember it being...

I think this whole thing sucks and I wish your story was posted here (Where it actually matters) Why it only made it to the EVo forums is beyond me.

Regaurdless of who is right the story should be heard here I think.

~v6

p.s. "Tell them its the tranny" If thats not a "Cover my ass" comment I dont know what is. Its funny to because I heard about your day at the track without knowing who it was and I was worried about my tranny after... The way false information travels pisses me off :furious:


If i wanted to start a battle with Vishnu this (Nasioc) would of been the place to go, but i did not, even after my problems i was gonna keep quiet, after all its been about 8 weeks since my motor went, but it quite didn't work out that way.


I have been painted to be a Liar, extortioniest,power hungry freak with no brian..all not true, i just hope by keeping a cool head, and presenting my story others will learn.

I do understand there are two sides to every story and i respect that.

I just want people to become aware of the event because TONS of people used your car as an example of how great Vishnu is. I think its only fair that they know the whole story.

I dont see it as you starting stuff, I see it as you trying to let others learn from your mistake. You paid the price, so i think thats your right (Its also your right not to tell people too) but if you do want to help others this is the place to do it. I can tell you that was my first visit to that EVO forum and I would assume many other STi owners dont go there either.

But on that note I'll step aside and let this thing take its course.

~v6

I erased my opinion in my post with the links to the Evo forum. I was quite rude in that opinion so I won't be this time. I really think more fault lies with the professional tuner. Somebody is depending on you to tune there engine for maximum safe output and when they say "push it to the limit", I think it is pretty much a given that the "limit" doesn't involve a blown engine.

You are supposed to be be a professional, how hard is it to say, "No, I'm not tuning your engine further, I'm leaving your whp, wtq, A/F ratios, et cet... in the safe range so you don't blow your engine". How F'in hard is that???

You wanna know what scares me the most. When I first bought my STi I actually called Vishnu and was thinking using their upgrade path. So glad I didn't now. I cannot even imagine how I would have been treated if something on my STi broke and I called them to discuss it.

from the sound of it you guys were just pushing hot air when you went with the aggressive tune...no HP increase and just TQ increases usually mean that you're pushing the turbo way out of its efficiency range. At least thats how I remember it being...
I was not provided with a dyno plot/dyno sheet or a sheet stating a/f ratios or boost due too a printer problem, but from what i recall my car made a modest 371 WHP/ but a high 395 ft #'s of torque...runnin around 26 #'s of boost on C16.

Pushing a turbo thats too small (relativley speaking) too hard leads to bad things. :(

I just want people to become aware of the event because TONS of people used your car as an example of how great Vishnu is. I think its only fair that they know the whole story.

I dont see it as you starting stuff, I see it as you trying to let others learn from your mistake. You paid the price, so i think thats your right (Its also your right not to tell people too) but if you do want to help others this is the place to do it. I can tell you that was my first visit to that EVO forum and I would assume many other STi owners dont go there either.

But on that note I'll step aside and let this thing take its course.

~v6

I concur 100%.

I was not provided with a dyno plot/dyno sheet or a sheet stating a/f ratios or boost due too a printer problem, but from what i recall my car made a modest 371 WHP/ but a high 395 ft #'s of torque...runnin around 26 #'s of boost on C16.

Pushing a turbo thats too small (relativley speaking) too hard leads to bad things. :(
The truth is depending on the torque is delivered something easily could break. That's a temendous amount of torque on that dyno, equivalent to 450+ somewhere else. The safer way to go would be to keep it around 350 AWT (keeping in mind this is about 400 on most other dynos) and max out your HP, and stop when your only getting torque increases. All the high output HP numbers I've seen with this turbo all have AWP higher than AWT. So the tuner is partly responsible for this, because this IMHO, is wreckless tuning.

It's like someone saying shoot me, shoot me, shoot me, and the other party says but I will kill you. The person get's shot, and replies, you killed me! And Vishnu replies, it's not my fault, I told you I would kill you, and leaves somebody else to bury the body.

mark, what are your plans for the future of your sti? i say go for a built 2.2 or larger and go back to having fun competing with your brother. wish i had a brother with an evo, i would've done the same thing.

mark, what are your plans for the future of your sti? i say go for a built 2.2 or larger and go back to having fun competing with your brother. wish i had a brother with an evo, i would've done the same thing.

The cars @ a shop here in Nor-cal, where the motor will be torn down, then depending on the findings the 2.5 will be redone with better piston/rods etc...or i may just get a axis/crawford or cobb motor???I'll know next week sometime.

The turbo i may keep,....but as i want to go faster, i think the green will have to go in favor of what i should of installed in the first place...a "true" gt30 or gt35r.
Gruppe-s has a killer Gt30 kit ...so i may look into that.

It is kinda odd, having a older brother with a 600+ hp EVO.. :huh: when u have a 480+ hp STi :D we have alota fun messing around with each other.

The turbo i may keep,....but as i want to go faster, i think the green will have to go in favor of what i should of installed in the first place...a "true" gt30 or gt35r.
Gruppe-s has a killer Gt30 kit ...so i may look into that.


That should be a sweet kit, I think you can even get the gt35r, which Mike is currently running. That thing put down 400 AWP on 95 octane. This dyno is pretty similar to Vishnu in readings.

nortparkSTI where did you find the Spearco? I've been looking one for months now.

I'll be having my GT35R setup tuned by Shiv shortly so I guess I will have the figures of what the turbo is capable of...personally I think its too big of a turbo to be reasonable on the STi.

Mark,

How's your brothers AMS setup working out?!?!

Mark,

How's your brothers AMS setup working out?!?!
Better then my setup.... :lol: j/k
Good
Hes getting some stuff done and will be back @ the track soon.

let me take a breather for a sec here...

[rant]...wow. those evom users (for the most part) are freaking ignorant. most of them dont know jack about the STi, yet talk about it like they designed the freaking car. [\rant]

bottom line: you pay to play. if you touch your car, let alone run 100+whp over stock, you better expect something to break eventually, and you better expect to pay for it IN FULL. dont cross boundaries if you arent ready to accept the consequences. i dont get what the big deal is. shiv blew your engine at your request, and then threw you a bone on top of it. im no shiv fan-boy by any stretch of the imagination, but im failing to see your argument even after reading thru all of those threads.

my suggestion? do some reading, start some research, and learn how to tune the car YOURSELF. in the end, the fate of your car is in YOUR hands. if you want to push the car to the limits, then you can, if you dont, then dont. where do you even know where the limits are? heck, ive been tuning my car for a good 7 months now, and i dont even know where the limits are...but i can kind of guess where a good conservative compromise sits.

im hoping you didnt pay someone to tune the car so that if anything happened to the car (which eventually it would, of course) you wouldnt be to blame? tuning the car yourself should also prove a much more satisfying experience. also- lets hope if you do venture out into the world of tuning your own car, that you dont blame the maker of the ECU for your future failings.

Link #1 (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=113447&page=3&pp=15)

Link #2 (http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=112859&page=3&pp=15)


Sorry MARKGSTI, but I think lots on here would like to know.


It was a LONG day & week, but I just read through ALL of those 2 threads ^^^^!?

As someone that's been on the wrong side of some shops' blunders & "customer service," I would like to offer my condolences to MARKGSTI.

There are always 2 sides to a story/conflict, and while credibility often helps to sway people's opinions and garner support, I have come to learn that unfortunately NO person and/or company is immune to suspect behavior.

Mark...I have a question for you. Is this dispute really about the engine breaking or is it more about how you were treated afterward? You and your brother have to know that at some point things are going to break. With the "shop car" and "joint venture" comments, it just seems like you were willing to accept that at some point the engine would let go. I just wonder if its more about what you thought was going to happen when it did(help fixing it, discounts, etc)?

I wasn't there and don't know what was said or what was offered afterward. Both sides have claimed the opposite in this instance. I don't know either of you and I don't believe either of you is telling the truth or lying, I just refuse to believe 99.9% of what I read in forums. I wish you luck and I won't being pushing my new STi because of all this. I will wait until the STi has been tested more. As a result of Marks problems, I have decided to keep my car stock for awhile to see how Vishnu's other cars do and also to research some other vendors.

Disclaimer: Shiv tuned my Vishnu Stage 1 WRX(I was very happy with it). My STi may or may not end up Vishnu Stage 1.

Mark...I have a question for you. Is this dispute really about the engine breaking or is it more about how you were treated afterward? You and your brother have to know that at some point things are going to break. With the "shop car" and "joint venture" comments, it just seems like you were willing to accept that at some point the engine would let go. I just wonder if its more about what you thought was going to happen when it did(help fixing it, discounts, etc)?

I wasn't there and don't know what was said or what was offered afterward. Both sides have claimed the opposite in this instance. I don't know either of you and I don't believe either of you is telling the truth or lying, I just refuse to believe 99.9% of what I read in forums. I wish you luck and I won't being pushing my new STi because of all this. I will wait until the STi has been tested more. As a result of Marks problems, I have decided to keep my car stock for awhile to see how Vishnu's other cars do and also to research some other vendors.

Disclaimer: Shiv tuned my Vishnu Stage 1 WRX(I was very happy with it). My STi may or may not end up Vishnu Stage 1.
Very good questions...Thats my POINT...

Its not the fact that the motor went, i knew the risks, i did think it would last a bit longer, but the motor didn't even hold one good 1/4 run.
But then to be accused of extortion :furious: :mad: its like slap in the face to me.

The story and problem is, after the fact the motor blew, the lies and customer service that occured.
To understand my story u have to look @ the background of my car and the fact it was being used to promote their stage 2 setups.
I'm not the power crazed customer they make me out to be.
I have called Vishnu out, to post the waiver ...4 times, and they haven't :rolleyes:
But that doesn't even matter,...u can take my story for what u wish, i have many more things i could say, but u can judge for urself.
I own a automotive repair shop, i know how a customer should be treated,...this is not the way u take care of a person.

I WASN'T LOOKIN FOR A FREEBEE--before the motor blew we talked about many upgrades, they had many plans like gt30 upgrades etc, but when the motor went and the breaking point with their stage 2+ kit was found, they wanted to have nothing to do with my car, and the B.S. started.

All i was lookin for was a tuner with good skills and honesty..that does work @ a fair price..like many of u guys.

Neways, i haved started from anew, and the cars in the hands of a shop that will take care of the motor for me...as u guys say " u play u pay"...understood ;) that was never a question for me.
l8tr
Mark

You know, I was thinking the same thing, have them post the waiver. They probably don't have it. I think for the most part Shiv is shady, just in the few conversations I had with them, Vishnu was always trying to ram product down my throat, telling me to sell the stuff I already had. But honestly, all things considered, when a vendor distances themselves from the car that was used to promote the product in the first place and then criticizes the customer, it speaks volumes about Vishnu as a company. Wether or not they realize it, it reflects badly upon them. But they're just the type of company that doesn't give a *****. The best thing Vishnu could have said and done was not to utter a word and publicly say they are trying to work something out with Mark.

.....

The story and problem is, after the fact the motor blew, the lies and customer service afterwards.
.........
FWIW
Your story cost Vishnu more than your motor cost.
I had planned on trucking my car to Vishnu, to have it modded.
I was looking at atleast $8000+ labor.
now there isn't a chance in hell i'll let Vishnu under my hood

Vishnu lost my business when they started insulting you.
any reasonable tuner should expect to tune a car within limits to keep it from blowing up, not many people would come into a place to have thier motor tuned to blow up.

at the very least given that you were beta testing thier new set up they should have done better by you to help you recover your losses.
the fact is they didn't give a **** that THEY Ruined you engine with thier lack of knowledge and then insulted you to add salt to the wound.

I for one thank you for posting and giving me the heads up that they were such a shi@#y company and clueless tuner.

not many tuners left to choose from but Vishnu lost one customer atleast,

-OneWay-, go to gruppe-s. They treated me right and didn't ask/recommend that I buy one Gruppe-s product. Real straight shooters. But honestly I think you guys need to de-emphasize here the motor blowing up. At those levels of torque on the drag strip something is bound to happen, the motor, the diffs, the tranny, etc. It's not an if, it's a when.

Shiv, or any vendor/tuner should not provide any service to any person if they feel what the customer is asking for will either cause failure, or extreme duress that would go above and beyond there normal tuning philosophy.

I've also noticed a trend from a good number of vendors that when something goes wrong, or not as planned it's now somehow the customers fault. :rolleyes:

This is a very disturbing trend and really shows who is a part slinger and who actually cares about providing a service to a community.

My $0.02

I for one thank you for posting and giving me the heads up that they were such a shi@#y company and clueless tuner.

Speaking of clueless :rolleyes:
Ask yourself, "why haven't I heard of Vishnu tuned cars blowing up before?" Maybe Shiv's getting them all to cover up with bs excuses? :huh: :rolleyes: Wow, that Shiv's a real prick! [sarcasm for those less intuitive on this kind of thing].

the fact is they didn't give a **** that THEY Ruined you engine with thier lack of knowledge and then insulted you to add salt to the wound.

The root cause of the engine failure is not Vishnu's "lack of knowledge," but the speed rivalry between Mark and his brother with an Evo. A stage 3 Evo is quite a bit faster than a stage 2 STi; that's just the way it is. But Mark needed more. Both parties knew what they were getting into. IMO, a red flag should've gone off when Mark was asked to sign that waiver...something I've never seen Shiv do at any of the 3 Vishnu dyno days I've attended.

any reasonable tuner should expect to tune a car within limits to keep it from blowing up, not many people would come into a place to have thier motor tuned to blow up.

But that's exactly what Mark did. He came in asking for a ragged-edge tune beyond what Shiv had already done. In any case, the main gist of the argument is not about the blown motor (as it was a risk Mark was apparently willing to take), but about what happened afterwards and the two seemingly different stories being told. Since the overwhelming majority of us weren't there, all we have to go by are Mark's story and Vishnu's story, and then we can believe whatever we want to believe.

Here's what I believe: whenever Shiv makes his way back to my part of the country, I will have him tune my STi. I just won't ask him to push it :lol:

Valid points, but Shiv handled the situation quite poorly. I mean c'mon, if you're a professional tuner and your beta tester's engine blows because your product or tune (regardless of whether he requested a dangerous tune) do you need to call him names and tell him to "take your medicine like a man" and "don't cry about it"??? On top of that he lied about it being a trans problem (as evidenced by a link Mark's brother posted to a typed post in another thread on the evo forum where shiv openly said it was a trans problem) instead of due to his tune. Shady, shady, shady...

Totally unprofessional.

Again, I go back to my earlier point, why in the H would he tune an engine to a point he knew dam well it would blow up at??? That's just wrong. Say "NO" when a customer asks for a super aggressive tune if you know it will blow the engine up. You are supposed to be a professional. IMO, that customer is paying you to say "NO" in that situation.

So glad I didn't go the Vishnu route now. I don't need Shiv to call me a baby when I call and tell him I'm having det or some other problem. No thanks, I'll pass.

I imagine it would be possible for someone to say or do something to or about me that would make me resort to namecalling etc. Again, we don't know (without any uncertainty) what happened between Mark, Shiv, and Vishnu off the boards.

Believe what you want to believe :)

Shiv covered himself on the transmission excuse thing...it's in one of those linked posts. ;)

OK, if you want to think Shiv covered himself, that's fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

Sounds like he's lying to me.

Think about it logically and unbiased. I personally do not know either party. Who has more incentive to lie in that situation??? Shiv b/c he tuned the car or Mark - the owner of the car??? Shiv's excuse that he was not lying was that he couldn't possibly diagnose the problem since he hadn't looked at the car, but then in that other post he typed out that it was a transmission problem. The very fact that he said he couldn't diagnose the problem and then says it is a transmission problem without having looked at the car speaks volumes to me.

Think what you want. There is lots and lots of evidence in those threads on the Evo forum that make Shiv look pretty bad.

cooter...u are still trippen about the waiver...ask yourself y has Vishnu not produced one...??
I have asked them to post it up...4 or 5 times now.

SHIV KNEW it was a rod...he confirmed it, on the phone 5 mintues after it happened, when i called him from the track.


I respect ur views and its ur right to stand behind ur tuner,...but when u start talkin about y the motor blew...blaming a speed rivalry with my family member
...thats NOT true, its gets personal.


Even getting past that point about the motor blowing, u have to look at the treamant/and comments made afterwards.
That speaks TONS, and gives u a view of what did happen behind closed doors between us.

Good luck with ur STI, cooter. ;)
"PUSH IT" :banana: :p :lol:

I think Shiv's reasoning is basically all null and void. Fact is, Mark's car was a beta car and Vishnu was working WITH him on a new setup. They were partners going into a new area. It doesn't matter what either party did. Fact of the matter is that Vishnu was using Mark's car to create a new stage that they could market to other individuals. This was a partnership and Vishnu left when the going got rough/tough. Yea, Mark's motor blew. They should have shared the expense. Why? Because it was a partnership where Mark was lending his car to Vishnu to develop a new stage of performance. I mean c'mon guys ... Vishnu would profit HEAVILY from bringing that new stage to market. Mark gets nothing out of this while putting his engine/car through the ringer? They were in this together. They should come out of it together.

IMHO, Vishnu left once they realized that the consequences outweighed the benefits. That's horrible. Furthermore, ANY respectable tuner would have agreed to push the car on the dyno but never would have let the car leave the shop with such an aggressive tune. That is just plain stupid.

t

hey mark, thanks for the reply about the motor rebuild & upgrade and how you plan the gt30 or gt35 turbo. i'm currently just running my little cobb stage 2 and have a ton of parts just sitting waiting to upgrade to a gt32 or gt35. i haven't decided on twin scroll vs single. anyways, glad to see that the past is water under the bridge and i appreciate you sharing your experiences with your car. keep us posted on the new upgrades.

In my opinion there is fault/blame on both parties in this situation:
1) A contract should have been written up and signed to give both parties a clear interpretation of "shop car" and "project car" and "joint venture". A lawyer in court could argue that shiv simply wanted to smoke out with you (joint venture).
2) Shops should never use customer cars as test beds. Especially at these high power levels when you are in uncharted territory. I will take back the "never" and say that a shop could use a customers car as a test bed but only if there is a contract.
3) A waiver was signed so Mark really has no case. As to whether the waiver was signed 2 seconds before the "pushing it" tune is all speculative because both parties have different stories and no waiver has been produced with a date and time stamp on it. I have had to sign a waiver everyplace I have had my car dynoed. It is the shops way of covering there a$$ because they cant replace every car/engine that they strap on the dyno. It is mainly to cover there butts against fraud because someone could take a car in on purpose to have it blow up on the dyno to attemp to get a free car. Thus we have waivers and one was signed.
4) Two lawyers could go at each other for months arguing over the definition of "push it to the limit". In my opinion, Shiv should not have agreed to push the car if he did not or does not know the limit of every single component on that motor. If you dont know where the limit is, how can you push it to the limit?
Also, to me "the limit" still entales a margin of safety. You have to build in a certain margin to account for changes in weather, altitude, gas mixture, boost spikes, etc. You simply cannot push a car within 1hp or 1 ftlb of its life and expect it never to jump over that barrier all by itself due to a change in one of the afforementioned variables.
5) Both parties knew the risks involved going into the tune. So both parties need to suck it up.
6) Shiv already offered to give Mark discounted labor and tuning and Mark refused so there is nothing left to discuss. Both have moved on. No more "facts" will ever be presented because its all he said/she said. The existing facts that everyone knows are Shiv tuned the car, Mark raced the car and the motor blew, Shiv offered discounted labor, Mark refused. Everything else is all crap because none of us were there.
7) If both parties want to agree to sit down and work it out, then so be it. I suggest either agreeing to let this die, agree to a cash settlement, or what I suggest is working together on the new motor. Let Mark buy the motor with his own money from Axis, and then Shiv should install it and tune it for free. That way they are even. I would say the labor and tuning would even come out to less than $6k.
Shiv would come out looking good for stepping up and helping out a long time customer and his business would get an even better reputation and by Mark letting Shiv tune the car he would show the confidence he has in Shiv's tuning ability and the workmanship of Vishnu. I would hope both parties would agree to this solution. It would benefit parties and resolve this dispute.

How many of you actually read through both evom threads entirely? I have no reason to defend shiv or mark, but IMHO this situation is both peoples fault.

First off, some facts need to be straightened out. Was a waiver signed or not? Both sides say the opposite. Second of all the engine didn't fail because of a bad tune, it failed because of too much power and a spun rod bearing. Am I the only one who feels that this isn't the tuners fault, especially if the customer asked to push the limit?

Lastly, if you have a "joint venture" or partnership with someone that involves money, write up a contract! W T F? This is basic business. When things go wrong, he-said-she-said doesn't go anywhere and you end up with a bunch of hearsay from both sides and it turns ugly. That is just stupid and I can't give any sympathy for a business relationship with no documented and defined elements.

Should a tuner simply say "no" if the customer wants to push the car? I'm not sure I agree. The situation sucks. Sure, shiv might not have handled it right, but at the same time, he has been dealing with customers for years - both good and bad, and he's only human. Mark has a bad ass car that was pushed too hard under his own supervision. Demanding that the tuner pay for a $6000 replacement with no business agreement or anything in writing is ridiculous.

Phatron - looks like we were typing the exact same things at the same time. I agree %100 and I'm glad someone else sees it the way I do! ;)

[QUOTE=Phatron]
3) A waiver was signed so Mark really has no case.
QUOTE]
That is what he says...but none has been produced as of yet....get my drift ;)
I don't wish to go to court and battle this out.
My car is sitting @ another shop, so the end for me in all this is within sight. :D

How many of you actually read through both evom threads entirely? I have no reason to defend shiv or mark, but IMHO this situation is both peoples fault.

Demanding that the tuner pay for a $6000 replacement with no business agreement or anything in writing is ridiculous.
Yes the situation is both our faults, but the actions of the tuner afterwards isn't.
Do u really believe that i wanted a $6000 motor for free...?

Please, now i'm a extortionist or a gold digger???..


Shiv offered to give me $500-$700 off labor... and make me pay FULL retail price on the parts, and said a few times "i don't have to do this"..making it appear as if they r doing me a favor..***..is that a fair deal.???
He even tried to turn my own brother against me....telling him to "divorce himself from my situation"...thats not right.


I'm sorry this is going beyond what i want too go into.

Mark,
Heres a quote from you from the Evo site.
"I might of signed a waiver when i had the car dynoe'd another time....i'm not quite sure i did That saturday."
You signed a waiver. It does not matter if u signed it that day or a tuning session before. You read it and signed it and thats that. You knew the risks.
I really wish Shiv would read this and be the bigger man here and setup up an appointment to tune your car for free. We are all adults here and in the scope of a lifetime this little situation is miniscule and meaningless. If you guys just work it out you will both feel better and both benefit.
Especially in the holiday season. Give a little extra and help each other out.

Mark,
Heres a quote from you from the Evo site.
"I might of signed a waiver when i had the car dynoe'd another time....i'm not quite sure i did That saturday."
You signed a waiver. It does not matter if u signed it that day or a tuning session before. You read it and signed it and thats that. You knew the risks.
I really wish Shiv would read this and be the bigger man here and setup up an appointment to tune your car for free. We are all adults here and in the scope of a lifetime this little situation is miniscule and meaningless. If you guys just work it out you will both feel better and both benefit.
Especially in the holiday season. Give a little extra and help each other out.

Thats is why i have asked more then a few times for that waiver to be posted... unless i am sure, i will not post details like that, i said " might",
notice afterwards shiv.....responded, but didn't post any waiver.
When he said i gave him my insurance carrier info, i knew somethings was up.
When was the last time a tuner asked u for a insurance card :confused: :lol:

Neways, the problems is not with the motor blowing as i have said many times.
I know @ this point i am the most hated man in the Vishnu universe..
so us parting ways was for good.
I also wish this could of been resolved beforehand.

I am just posting my story...for people to learn...not just to beat on SHIV and gang, but to see what does and doesn't work, and what mods and problems they need to avoid.

Hey mark... be glad you dont got my Bro...

He has a modded Saleen S351 stang

I doubt an STi can compete with that seeing it ran 122mph stock :lol:

Good thing I could care less about beating him, cause if I did... i'd probably be sad...


And broke :lol:

~v6

Hey mark... be glad you dont got my Bro...

He has a modded Saleen S351 stang

I doubt an STi can compete with that seeing it ran 122mph stock :lol:

Good thing I could care less about beating him, cause if I did... i'd probably be sad...


And broke :lol:

~v6
Its a biatch...having a bro like that, hes actually the guy that got me into racein... we have fun together whoopin on V8's..no matter whos faster.


U should of seen us with our last cars...I had one of the fastest Hondas around.
Back in 97 i had Steph Papadakis when he owned Honda Pro ( Now famous AEM driver of the worlds fastest honda for the past million years) do one of the first h22as' in the country on my 97 hatchback civic, then I stripped it to 1800 #'s, and did a bunch of motor work to it....goin against my brothers 92 turbo 400+ hp Talon
We used to race those cars all the time...,,that was back in 97-98.

I guess that makes me a Old school import racer..

I will tell u, after Steph did my motor, i had a few issuses, not with his work, but rather people not knowing how to wire in my EM system afterwards,...it melted down my harness and killed my car..
Steph fixed it for me for free...afterwards, twice.
He is one hell of a guy :banana: BIG THUMBS UP.

w0rd

~v6

Just finish tuning at Vishnu... Very happy with the results.
310whp on 91oct.
355whp on 100oct.
FP Green
Injectors
Fuel pump
vishnu TBE with cat
xede

Glad you're happy :)

Best Regards,
shiv

I did happen to read both strings in their entiretey before posting the links from this thread to the threads on EvoM.

No question fault lies with both parties. Personally, I take issue with the fact that Shiv knowingly tuned a car he knew would blow up and let somebody leave his shop with the car in that state - even if it was requested of him, I still think that is wrong. That is just my opinion and is debateable.

HOWEVER, I think the real issue lies with how unprofessional Shiv acted after a customer/beta tester's motor blew up. I think it is pretty clear Shiv did not handle the whole mess very professionally - that really isn't something that should be debated, it is quite obvious. Of course, both sides probably could have handled the mess afterward better, so I'm done with this string now. Draw your own conclusions...

By the way MARKGSTI, I apologize for posting the links and making you go through all this crap again. I just think that the people in this forum that are customers of Shivs or are thinking about becoming a customer of Shivs should see that information. I know I would want to see it if I was thinking about taking my car to Shiv to tune it - just so I could draw my own conclusion and proceed accordingly.

So, I guess the next question is....who's going to tune the "built" motor? Who do you trust...cause I'm sure you dont want this same thing happening...

I think Shiv's reasoning is basically all null and void. Fact is, Mark's car was a beta car and Vishnu was working WITH him on a new setup. They were partners going into a new area. It doesn't matter what either party did. Fact of the matter is that Vishnu was using Mark's car to create a new stage that they could market to other individuals. This was a partnership and Vishnu left when the going got rough/tough. Yea, Mark's motor blew. They should have shared the expense. Why? Because it was a partnership where Mark was lending his car to Vishnu to develop a new stage of performance. I mean c'mon guys ... Vishnu would profit HEAVILY from bringing that new stage to market. Mark gets nothing out of this while putting his engine/car through the ringer? They were in this together. They should come out of it together.

No. It was never an explicit partnership. Why would he have had him sign a waiver? And if it ever was an implicit one, it stopped being one as soon as the car was tuned to reflect Mark's priorities and wishes (to beat his brother at Sacramento), which were in direct conflict with Vishnu's (create safe staged packages for STi owners).

I did happen to read both strings in their entiretey before posting the links from this thread to the threads on EvoM.

No question fault lies with both parties. Personally, I take issue with the fact that Shiv knowingly tuned a car he knew would blow up and let somebody leave his shop with the car in that state - even if it was requested of him, I still think that is wrong. That is just my opinion and is debateable.

HOWEVER, I think the real issue lies with how unprofessional Shiv acted after a customer/beta tester's motor blew up. I think it is pretty clear Shiv did not handle the whole mess very professionally - that really isn't something that should be debated, it is quite obvious. Of course, both sides probably could have handled the mess afterward better, so I'm done with this string now. Draw your own conclusions...

By the way MARKGSTI, I apologize for posting the links and making you go through all this crap again. I just think that the people in this forum that are customers of Shivs or are thinking about becoming a customer of Shivs should see that information. I know I would want to see it if I was thinking about taking my car to Shiv to tune it - just so I could draw my own conclusion and proceed accordingly.I agree...
Now u know the stuff i had to endure... :(
Whats that saying ...what doesn't kill u makes u stronger :lol:

Well, I just hope that both can move past it. And I'm not trying to make anyone look bad, sorry.

So Mark, are you getting the Axis motor? I dream of those from time to time... You should give the Evo a good run with one of those! Actually, I drive a modified STI 6, my brother Rob (EvoRS on evolutionm) drives a stage 2 Evo 8 and my brother Nick drives a stage 2 WRX, so I know how the sibling rivalries for horsepower can go! I'm the oldest, so I need to stay a few steps ahead... ;)

Oh, and to bring things back on topic; nice numbers nortparkSTI! Get some forged pistons in there. :D

Mark's car was not a beta tester in any way, shape or form. There was no explicit agreement, verbal or written, for any type of official sponsorship/support. Mark's post-failure requests for support (which he has yet to reveal publically) did not coincide with what we were prepared to offer him (free tuning and 75% off labor). His solution to this dilemma was to go public and we wish him the best.

The only thing I am sorry for is for giving him the tune he demanded on numerous occasions.

Mark-- if you want a copy of the liability waiver that you signed in front of no less than 5 people (staff and customers included), you should come over to our shop to pick it up. I am not posting agreements on-line.

To everyone else-- I'd encourage you guys not to arrive at a conclusion without getting all of the information. A lot of which has been conveniently left out of this thread. The internet will never be a place to solve conflict. But it never fails to stir up drama where there should be none.

Regards,
Shiv

Pistons yes....good,then u can run the high boost.

[QUOTE=Vishnu Performance] His solution to this dilemma was to go public and we wish him the best.


QUOTE]
My solution was to move on....i did not indend to stir this up.

We linked back to EVom..if anybody wants to get a full read up on this...so as to not think we are "leaving anything out."

I wish u the best as well :D

At this point i think we can both learn from this...no??

so, whos tuning the new motor?

[QUOTE=Vishnu Performance]We linked back to EVom..if anybody wants to get a full read up on this...so as to not think we are "leaving anything out."

There is a lot left out, Mark.

At this point i think we can both learn from this...no??

Absolutely. You know what I've learned....

Shiv

I am tired of this...for the past 1 1/2 weeks now, lets just move on...

Absolutely. You know what I've learned....

Shiv
Oh no..more drama for my mama :)
I think we both have.

Mark,
You have made 22 posts in this thread alone regarding this conflict. This accounts for nearly 20% of all the posts you have ever made on nasioc. Are you being completely forthright when you say that your only intention is to "move on"?

Shiv

I am moving on....as my cars @ another shop, its been 8 weeks now.
i did not open the floodgates on Nasioc
I didn't post the link either
I was hesitant...but as people ask/accuse me of things i will answer.
I have stated my case and that is all.

.... 23

and just when it couldn't gotten really interesting for all those drama lovers out there ;)

24
Now :)
We can battle this out once more if u wish, but i think neither of us want that.

Okay, I really don't want to drag this feud on or anything, but reading through all of this has me curious about this..

Perhaps Vishnu performance can address this question....

Is it your expert opinion that a specific whp and wtq limit was crossed for the engine block itself?? Yes, it is obvious that the engine let go here, but was it more because the specific setup that Mark was running itself, OR was it because the engine itself in general cannot sustain any more whp/wtq than it was in his situation (as in trying to get too much out of a specific setup - turbo, injectors, intercooler, etc). I hope you see what I am trying to get at here:)

I too for a while have been curious as to what kind of whp numbers that one should really start to run out of courage, not only with the ej257, but also with the ej205.

I HOPE Vishnu can give an idea as to where one should aim as a max (in their opinion) for BOTH EJ205 AND the EJ257 such that the owner will STILL be able to enjoy that car for a long time to come.

Edit: Oh.. and Mark, sorry to read about your misfortune.. Hope all goes well for you with the car in future. I was not there, so can't (in the right mind) pass any judgement on this. :)

I wanted to add some relevant info for those who might now be dissuaded from Vishnu’s Stage 2 kit.

I’ve been running my setup for 7,500 miles without so much as a hiccup. This includes a couple of drums of race fuel on a 327whp map. This is a daily driver with 30,000 over miles, 20,000 of which have been on Vishnu mods with custom tunes. My personal experience has been very positive and I am extremely pleased with my setup.

Stage 2+ in the near future.

Richard

EDIT: One thing I forgot to say: I did have to bring back my boost 1 psi on my 93 octane map due to possible differences in GA gas (where i had the car tuned) and FL gas. I also just might have had a bad batch. Anyways, I have since restored the boost table back to how Shiv tuned it. Well all know how octane sensitve these engines are.

I wanted to add some relevant info for those who might now be dissuaded from Vishnu’s Stage 2 kit.

I’ve been running my setup for 7,500 miles without so much as a hiccup. This includes a couple of drums of race fuel on a 327whp map.

why is a green on race gas only making 327? :eek:

Because it's on a Dyno Dynamics dyno where STis put down 215-220whp stock.

[QUOTE=dmross]Phatron - looks like we were typing the exact same things at the same time. I agree %100 and I'm glad someone else sees it the way I do! ;)[/QUOT

Counting does not help a bad agrument.

Mark,
Heres a quote from you from the Evo site.
"I might of signed a waiver when i had the car dynoe'd another time....i'm not quite sure i did That saturday."
You signed a waiver. It does not matter if u signed it that day or a tuning session before. You read it and signed it and thats that. You knew the risks.
I really wish Shiv would read this and be the bigger man here and setup up an appointment to tune your car for free. We are all adults here and in the scope of a lifetime this little situation is miniscule and meaningless. If you guys just work it out you will both feel better and both benefit.
Especially in the holiday season. Give a little extra and help each other out.
:confused: You don't get it.... There are differences that will never be fixed. Neither Mark nor Shiv would be agreeable to what you are asking.

It means nothing to u because you have nothing to do with it.

I understand what Mark is feeling, since I have been on the other end of a less than honest transaction/business relationship. Read... Mark can offer Shiv nothing since his car is broke.... Shiv breaks relationship....

It's a cruel world and unfortunately that is how a lot of people do business.

The evoM thread is locked, so i know i'm done there...if anybody has any questions please feel free to P.M. me.
i'll try to chill for now... :disco:
I thank everybody for wishing me well.

Not for nothing but if he offered the deal on labor and the parts at FULL RETAIL... I think thats a ripoff... No one pays full retail... I know I dont anyways.

If not... disregaurd :D

~v6

Not for nothing but if he offered the deal on labor and the parts at FULL RETAIL... I think thats a ripoff... No one pays full retail... I know I dont anyways.

If not... disregaurd :D

~v6

75% off labor and machining ($750-1000) and free tuning (another $400-800) and regular street price for an Axis race motor is a rip-off? I guess everyone has different ideas of what they deserve and what is due to them.

Next time you come to the conclusion that I am ripping someone off v6, i'd encourage you to hold judgement until you learn the whole situation, leading up to the incident as well as what happened afterwards.

Shiv

75% off labor and machining ($750-1000) and free tuning (another $400-800) and regular street price for an Axis race motor is a rip-off? I guess everyone has different ideas of what they deserve and what is due to them.

Next time you come to the conclusion that I am ripping someone off v6, i'd encourage you to hold judgement until you learn the whole situation, leading up to the incident as well as what happened afterwards.

Shiv

EDIT

Okay, I really don't want to drag this feud on or anything, but reading through all of this has me curious about this..

Perhaps Vishnu performance can address this question....

Is it your expert opinion that a specific whp and wtq limit was crossed for the engine block itself?? Yes, it is obvious that the engine let go here, but was it more because the specific setup that Mark was running itself, OR was it because the engine itself in general cannot sustain any more whp/wtq than it was in his situation (as in trying to get too much out of a specific setup - turbo, injectors, intercooler, etc). I hope you see what I am trying to get at here:)

I too for a while have been curious as to what kind of whp numbers that one should really start to run out of courage, not only with the ej257, but also with the ej205.

I HOPE Vishnu can give an idea as to where one should aim as a max (in their opinion) for BOTH EJ205 AND the EJ257 such that the owner will STILL be able to enjoy that car for a long time to come.

Edit: Oh.. and Mark, sorry to read about your misfortune.. Hope all goes well for you with the car in future. I was not there, so can't (in the right mind) pass any judgement on this. :)

There is no discrete line separating safe performance from unsafe performance. At times, what will be safe for one person will be unsafe for someone else who subjects the car to different conditions. In the case of Mark, he drove his car hard for a couple of weeks only then to spin a bearing at the drag strip when launching hard with newly mounted R compound tires. Something had to give and it wasn't the clutch or tire traction. Whereas just minutes after the dyno tune, when running street tires, he was street racing on our frontage road without any engine trouble. But when pushing a car that close to the limit (I was asked to run the car at 30psi of boost afterall), all you do is increase the chances for mechanical failure. Chances that are always there but usually a lot lower when calibrated more conservatively. Usually, its the last 5% of the power that increases failure risk tenfold.

Shiv

In the case of Mark, he drove his car hard for a couple of weeks only then to spin a bearing at the drag strip when launching hard with newly mounted R compound tires. Something had to give and it wasn't the clutch or tire traction. Whereas just minutes after the dyno tune, when running street tires, he was street racing on our frontage road without any engine trouble.
Thats enough...

STOP LIEING

i will not resort to name calling, but this shows what typa person u are Shiv

1. My car went straight from ur shop..to my house..maybe 45-50 miles,
Where it was parked for the rest of the week...count them Shiv..a WHOLE 4 DAYS..then i went straight to the track,..on Friday night where the motor blew.No more then 150 miles max....
I can dig up my posts on EVO to back me up...
During that time...i floored the car twice, once on that frontage road for no more then a 5-10 seconds,,,and once on the way to the racetrack going from 60-90 mph.
I don't daily drive my car, i only have 6000 miles on her in the past year.
How dare u talk about street racing..,
Many people have seen and heard of ur reckless driving around ur shop after ur dyno sessions..goin what 100+ in a 35 zone in front of ur shop??

What am I lying about? I recall you being very happy with you win against the Stg 3 EVO. As for my driving habits, I do admit to driving fast. Never denied it or ever attempted to hide it. But I have yet to participate in or challenge anyone to a street race. Especially on a public road in the rain. Remember now Mark?

Shiv

What am I lying about?

Shiv
1.ABout me driving the car hard for weeks before the motor blew

2.about the labor discount u where gonna provide...
first on the phone u told me 40% of labor/then 30 of labor/and now 25% of labor, Whats ur labor rate...$100, and u were gonna bill me for 20-25 hours remember..that $600-750 plus..

Most shops around here would of only charged me $300-500 more to do the same job.

What am I lying about? I recall you being very happy with you win against the Stg 3 EVO. As for my driving habits, I do admit to driving fast. Never denied it or ever attempted to hide it. But I have yet to participate in or challenge anyone to a street race. Especially on a public road in the rain. Remember now Mark?

Shiv
We never raced...or have u forgotten alreaddy SHIv...??
SO what street race are u talking about>???
YES SHIV, u have been street racing...i know for a fact u have went to Street races in Oakland a few times with Vishnuevo8.

I guess u forgot that :rolleyes: also

R u tryying to discredit me again??..I have come on here to state the facts, and u have tried on EVOm and now here to make me look like a scum-bag.

U said i demanded that axis motor and gt35 turbo for free to keep quiet..LIE

I told u it was all about working together, and not about the money last time we got together, and u mocked me then..and i guess u mock me now... :(

I have asked that this come to a end, why can't u respect that?
I don't wish to fight, but only that u post the facts...

But if u wanna rumble... :furious:

Would you like me to invite other people who were present during our conversation into this thread to remind you the specifics of what was discussed and how you admitted to misunderstanding the denotative difference between the verbal word "of" and "off" (ie. 25% of labor and 25% off labor). Also, would you also mind revealing how you got a shop to agree to pull your old engine, disassemble the heads and reinstall them with a full race motor for $300-500? You're a shop owner yourself Mark. Surely you know how much labor is involved with such a job. And yes, I did watch a street race once (not in Oakland, btw). Never participated in it or challenged anyone to one... ever. If I had ever done that, I'm sure we would have all heard about it by now, no? Please feel free to be the first to "move on" Mark. You never have a problem with starting an altercation. You just seem to get caught up in the unfortunate facts when push comes to shove. I like what I do Mark and unfortunately I have to deal with issues like this. But fortunately, it's not very often. Still, I'm not proud of it but I'm certainly not the kind of guy who is going to suck it up and let you continue your misleading slag compaign.

Shiv

Would you like me to invite other people who were present during our conversation into this thread to remind you the specifics of what was discussed and how you admitted to misunderstanding the denotative difference between the verbal word "of" and "off" (ie. 25% of labor and 25% off labor). Also, would you also mind revealing how you got a shop to agree to pull your old engine, disassemble the heads and reinstall them with a full race motor for $300-500? You're a shop owner yourself Mark. Surely you know how much labor is involved with such a job. And yes, I did watch a street race once (not in Oakland, btw). Never participated in it or challenged anyone to one. If I had ever done that, I'm sure we would have all heard about it by now, no?

Shiv

@ the end of the night it came to a understanding it would cost me anywhere from $600-750 + machine shop expenses to replace the motor.

But what got me, as i say again was not the price, but rather ur treatment of me....

I never said it cost me $300-500,,i said the shop i called to price this job, would only charge me $300-500 MORE then u...WOW, i guess that would mean ur offer wasn't fair after all??
Since u wanted to get FULL RETAIL for the motor, as many shops will cut u a break off that price....

If u wanna bring up a word for word of ur meeting be my guest..i will make sure that people know ALL the words u said.

Please feel free to be the first to "move on" Mark. You never have a problem with starting an altercation.

Shiv
I have tried to dodge this, but u seem like the type that won't stop unless u come out lookin like a peach.

Please don't try to paint me as trying to ruin ur shop..as i have kept quiet about many other things...
I only say what i must to defend myself and give people the truth.

Let me be the first to STOP this...NOW.

Good night

But what got me, as i say again was not the price, but rather ur treatment of me....

Yeah, i guess 75% off assembly and installation labor and free tuning of a race motor is chump change :rolleyes: It's not for many of us. I guess we'll never see eye-to-eye on that one, Mark. I'm glad you finally found a shop that would accept your job. Good luck and I hope to see you cutting your 10s soon...

Shiv

Fiesty down to the end..uh :lol:

Thank U..for ur Best wishes.

Mark g.

As always, Roughhouse turns into tears. :)

I just don't understand that if there was no business relationship or whatsoever and this person just demanded to blow up his engine and you did why would you be giving this guy any discount at all. It seems that offering him all this free stuff is indicative that Vishnu had more skin in the game than a typical customer. So if all this guy wants is a little discount on the motor give it to him, your labor rates are already high enough to cover the margin.

I own a automotive repair shop, i know how a customer should be treated,...this is not the way u take care of a person.

You own a shop but you have multiple other shops doing work on your car for you? You are a mechanic and youre surprised you blew your motor? Youre a businessman and you dont remember if you signed a waiver, and you never made any type of written agreement before you (had someone else) thrash your car on the dyno repeatedly?

You sound like a loud mouth baby.

You own a shop but you have multiple other shops doing work on your car for you? You are a mechanic and youre surprised you blew your motor? Youre a businessman and you dont remember if you signed a waiver, and you never made any type of written agreement before you (had someone else) thrash your car on the dyno repeatedly?

You sound like a loud mouth baby.

I have a shop, but i MYSELF do no work on cars.
I would rather have the work done on my 30+K car by specialists, as i plan on going quite far(meaning more then the average joe) with my STI.

Rather then lie on this thread, like others have, i will not post/confirm or deny anything, unless i am certain, I have asked for this waiver to be posted, and i get nothing but excuses.

I would hope that the guy i paid over and spent over $4000+ for my mods (cost of my xede/turbo/install etc)...would not "Thrash my car"...I DON'T think Shiv does that.

When you trust somebody, and you think you have a good friendship, sometimes getting stuff down on paper doesn't even come into a persons head, and i do regret that.

To avoid spats like this...i'm just gonna steer clear of this thread for now...i think both parties have made their thoughts clear.
This has been goning on for too long already.

If you already spent 4 grand you obviously werent in any kind of business relationship.

Out of that 4 grand how much do you think was profit? It sounds like you expect him to buy you a new car. I think the offer he gave you was pretty fair.

I still dont understand why you would have another shop do an R&R on your blown motor when you own your own shop!?! Also, as a shop owner you can source the motor yourself and not have to pay retail.

If you already spent 4 grand you obviously werent in any kind of business relationship.

Out of that 4 grand how much do you think was profit? It sounds like you expect him to buy you a new car. I think the offer he gave you was pretty fair.

I still dont understand why you would have another shop do an R&R on your blown motor when you own your own shop!?! Also, as a shop owner you can source the motor yourself and not have to pay retail.
U need to read up more on this... later check my post above.
Mark

I just don't understand that if there was no business relationship or whatsoever and this person just demanded to blow up his engine and you did why would you be giving this guy any discount at all. It seems that offering him all this free stuff is indicative that Vishnu had more skin in the game than a typical customer. So if all this guy wants is a little discount on the motor give it to him, your labor rates are already high enough to cover the margin.

We sometimes extend discounts here and there to customers. Usually those who run their cars on the track or dragstrip and represent our products and services. For these people, we have been known to offer discounts on tuning and sometimes on labor. Nothing official but just a gesture of our appreciation. This discounts extended to Mark (which were greater than we have ever offered to anyone) were simply a result of his dissatisification and our desire to make a bad situation good. I honestly thought that it was more than fair given the facts leading up to the motor failure. Until this, no one has ever asked us to replace a motor before, either partly or fully. For this situation, of all situations, to bring forth such a request was surprising to all of us.

Regards
shiv

What were you thinking when he made you sign that waiver? At that point you didnt question your "partnership"?

What were you thinking when he made you sign that waiver? At that point you didnt question your "partnership"?
U just don't Get it???.
I haved repeated myself numerous times about this waiver..

Just because he wont publicly post the waiver on the freaking internet doesnt mean it doesnt exist!!! You never "called him out" on that subject.

We sometimes extend discounts here and there to customers. Usually those who run their cars on the track or dragstrip and represent our products and services. For these people, we have been known to offer discounts on tuning and sometimes on labor. Nothing official but just a gesture of our appreciation. This discounts extended to Mark (which were greater than we have ever offered to anyone) were simply a result of his dissatisification and our desire to make a bad situation good. I honestly thought that it was more than fair given the facts leading up to the motor failure. Until this, no one has ever asked us to replace a motor before, either partly or fully. For this situation, of all situations, to bring forth such a request was surprising to all of us.

Regards
shiv
Good morning Shiv.. do u want to start this up again...??
Just knock it off... Its X-eve for crying out loud...

Just stating facts and answering questions. Not trying to start anything up. Like I said, if you want the waiver, come on by the shop and pick up a copy. Not going to post a legal doc online. If you think it's doctored or fabricated, I can have statements from others (both staff and customers) who where there when you signed it and will even recall the verbal directive you repeatedly gave me before I started tuning your car.

Merry Chirstmas,
Shiv

Hi Shiv,

Merry Christmas

:)

Like I said, if you want the waiver, come on by the shop and pick up a copy. Not going to post a legal doc online. If you think it's doctored or fabricated, I can have statements from others (both staff and customers) who where there when you signed it and will even recall the verbal directive you repeatedly gave me before I started tuning your car.

Merry Chirstmas,
Shiv
U my friend are the one that said u would post up the waiver...
I come by Vishnu to pick up the document..hahaha..sure to get a beat down ;) :lol: :rolleyes:


Why r u going off main topic...again, going on and on about that waiver,
the motor blowing was not a huge thing for me...I have said that, many times.

L8tr

U my friend are the one that said u would post up the waiver...
I come by Vishnu to pick up the document..hahaha..sure to get a beat down ;) :lol: :rolleyes:


Why r u going off main topic...again, going on and on about that waiver,
the motor blowing was not a huge thing for me...I have said that, many times.
I hope this will come to a pass, along with the new year
L8trMaybe he can mail you a copy of the document so you can avoid a stressful visit to his shop and then you can post it up here ?

BTW, when I do work for a client, I charge full price, and when Im done I take pictures and use it as advertisement (with permission from the customer). If you didnt want your car used that way Im sure you could have told Shiv, but I have a feeling you liked the attention.

Maybe he can mail you a copy of the document so you can avoid a stressful visit to his shop and then you can post it up here ?

Once a lawyer always a lawyer.

[QUOTE=santofontana]BTW, when I do work for a client, I charge full price, and when Im done I take pictures and use it as advertisement (with permission from the customer). QUOTE]

This thing isn't about U Santofontana.

BTW
..Ur comments r welcome, but please refrain from insulting others...as u have done so a few times already.

What most people here fail to realize is that his car has been running for months now. You were tuned with the fp green and stock ic and loved it, car made good power. Then you get tuned again with the new TMIC and c16 and make even better power. The car was perfectly fine at those power levels. It's marks fault that he got greedy and wanted more power than the stock sti block could handle. Then he expects Shiv to pay for his loss.

these type of arguments will NEVER end!!!

Best thing to do is try to drop it and go seperate ways. It sounds like the car is elsewhere getting worked on, and thats all that matters.

Mark, sorry to hear about your car. Hope everything works out for you.

-freddie (holding back) :D

R u tryying to discredit me again??..

When you write like that, you discredit yourself. :o

When you write like that, you discredit yourself. :o


how is that so??

go away to another thread...where your posts might mean something.

-freddie

This thread makes me want to stick forks in my eyes...

~v6

lol

thats the 1st post of yours that I have ever liked. lol hahahaha