http://users.rcn.com/wgknestrick/STI%2093%20Oct%2020-18psi%20Dyno.jpg

http://users.rcn.com/wgknestrick/STI%2093%20Oct%2020-18psi%20Dyno%20AF.jpg


93Oct only with conservative tune. I didn't want to tune for max HP on this because I will do that with the alcy injection once that is working. Finally got a chance to get to the dyno and my but dyno was about 10hp off of the dynojet :). This is at about 20psi that tapers down to 18psi at redline. This turbo holds boost fairly well, I just need to get my WI working and bump the boost up to about 25psi. Hopefully I can get close to my 400whp on 93oct then.

Mods:

STI Hydra tuned by Phil of Element tuning
Full Throttle GT30-12 (SBR)
Coated GT spec headers
catless TBE
Moddified injectors and fuel pump
Perrin FMIC
Intake and Perrin turbo inlet
ACT 6 puck clutch
crappy Wawa 93 oct

Aquamist 2D system (not working as of now)

Bill

congrats! use the hydra to control the 2d setup, skip using the injector pulse to control the water though.

WAY off topic, but how do you like that clutch?

nice #'s on 93 and only running b/w 18 and 20psi!! I would like to see what it does at 25psi and a little more of an aggressive tune.

I have to make it out to one of these LV meets to see your car!

Definitely nice numbers on 93 AND freakin low boost.

Great first pass - I assume the GT-30-12 is a GT-30R with new flanges to bolt up to stock plumbing?

What jets do you plan to run with your 2D ?

I too am installing a 2D this week. With my PE-850 injectors I figure I need to run 2 x 1.0 mm jets get 20% water/methanol to fuel.

Using the Hydra to control the aquamist HSV is easier said than done. Hopefully one of you gurus can do most of the work with Phil sometime. Once we have a base map, it would then be "easy"

i think this is the first dyno results we've seen of the -12 series from SBR/FT. Looks like a much more capable turbo.

not to take anything away from this, but the -12 is basically the same thing as an AVO500 with a smaller exhaust housing. Its right in line with what you'd expect, I put down 364whp at 22psi, he's running 20psi and put down 339... exactly what you'd expect.

At 25 psi, he should easily be able to hit 400whp, assuming the hotside isn't too small and pulls him down....

am i going to be the first to post #'s from a sbr13? or have people already done that?

chad b
chadblock.com

Hey, thanks a ton for posting the charts. I have been waiting for quite a while for somebody to post charts of this turbo on a EJ257.

Congrats, numbers look really good at that low of a boost target. Any idea when you are gonna turn up the boost and target 25psi? Like the others said, I'm very interested to see how this turbo performs in the higher RPMs with the .58A/R exhaust housing.

At what rpm did you see full boost

He says in this string (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=690087) on post #7 that positive boost starts at 3K and he sees full boost by 4K RPM.

Thanks, I'll post some number with a 2.4L motor soon using this turbo. I bought it figuring I'd toftt, but I guess now I dont have to:p

congrats! use the hydra to control the 2d setup, skip using the injector pulse to control the water though.

WAY off topic, but how do you like that clutch?


ditto how bout it??

not to take anything away from this, but the -12 is basically the same thing as an AVO500 with a smaller exhaust housing.


The AVO500 uses a -12 turbine and a -10 compressor. Is this how slowboys also get the stock turbo intake position and hoses to fit. I have a AVO450 with a -10 cartridge with a Samco intake hose and I can't see it fitting over a -12 compressor inlet.

nice #'s bill! car felt great when i was in it, cant wait to see the injected/agressive tune :eek:

The clutch is nice now. It was a bitch when it was first installed. I get some noise on decells, but I also have tranny / engine mounts too. It holds the torque and I can drive it fairly easy.

I also bought the clutch after a reccomendation from Phil.

I can't help but wonder if that turbo is too small for the 2.5's.....here is a stock block awd eclipse running the same setup with almost identical spool up and numbers accept he is running 91 octane and 18 lbs of boost.........

turbo back exhaust
front mount intercooler
bov
pump
injectors
dsmlink
act2600
short ram intake
272/272's

plus a few others odds and ends I might of left out

Ive seen 2 charts now and I keep wondering if the turbine housing is just too small for those husky 2.5 engines. Not to stray too much off topic but does any one know of any charts of an sti or 2.5 with a gt35r, I would love to see them.

Now I realize peek power isn't every thing, and that is one helluva nice looking powerband. Looks very drivable and a pleasure to get romp on.

here's the chart

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/sevenonefour/fp305218psi91oct.jpg

Wow, the charts are almost identical.

I'm not really familar with the 257 motor or am I a professional tuner, but don't those air fuel ratio's already seem about as lean as you would go. They hit 12:1 around 6,000 rpm. :eek: I thought it was race gas when I saw the 12:1. What would an agressive tune be? I'm just curious.

The reason both AFRs get fairly lean up top is that this turbo still is well within it's eff. range at this boost level. There is plenty of room to add more psi for more power. I personally just don't like the idea of running much more than 20psi on just pump gas in an everyday driver. Once we see some dynos of 25-28psi with this turbo, we will then know whether the housing is holding it back.

It looks like i will be getting a gt3012 or maybe even the gt30-13...i'll post my results compared to my previuos setup with the green,...when its all done in a few weeks

ive heard from the dsmer's the 13 is way laggier than the 12 and not really worth it. 9 out of 10 recomend the very efficient 12 series.

whats efficient and laggy on the dsm is not necessarily whats efficient on the ej motors. I think sbr might be finding this out once more ppl start strapping the bigger hotsides onto the 257 specifically. remember we have a VERY different header design (read: MUCH longer).

Yes to an extant..........but the efficiency levels of a turbo do not vary from car to car. Go look at a map of the 13 side by side with the 12 and tell me wich one looks more efficient because those ratings are not car specific.

A turbo does nothing different when the fiery hot gases from a dsm are slamming into it's turbine compared to the fiery hot exhaust gasses from a subaru. I would look around for a more efficient alternative cause they're out there.

youre right the effiency levels do not change but my point was that those fiery hot gasses that run through 6 feet? of subaru header and uppipe will surely cool down more than they will on a dsm so you cant compare the two setups 1:1.

^^^^^^^ agreed, that's a big difference. The DSM's path is less than a foot.

I would be a guinea pig in one HOT second for an SBR-12 with a larger hotside... like a .83. Mike are you listening? :disco:

Make that two... hell I'll just buy the exhaust housing :)

If I were him Id want to provide the best product I could in a world of not always great performing bolt on turbos.

edit: plus Im localish :disco:

Yes to an extant..........but the efficiency levels of a turbo do not vary from car to car. Go look at a map of the 13 side by side with the 12 and tell me wich one looks more efficient because those ratings are not car specific.

A turbo does nothing different when the fiery hot gases from a dsm are hitting are slamming into it's turbine compared to the fiery hot exhaust gasses from a subaru. I would look around for a more efficient alternative cause they're out there.


^^^^^^^^^
Closed minded guy that really knows nothing about EJ motors or turbo charging.

C

you outta hear his car startup...and the growl...mmmm

^^^^^^^^^
Closed minded guy that really knows nothing about EJ motors or turbo charging.

C
What did I miss? Is this about my lack of artistic vision to make hp :)

Congratulations, the dyno plot looks fantastic.

This turbo is very interesting as I remember thinking that’s a really small exhaust housing and wasn’t expecting much out of it. When we actually started tuning (road) I noticed it was very “laggy” for being such as small hot side, and then I noticed how lean I could run the car without the egts going through the roof. That just means it’s very much in its efficiency range and we don’t need extra fuel to keep things cool or excessive ignition advance.

The bottom line is that 340 whp for 18 psi is really, really good considering we are no where near maxed out on pump fuel (maybe +35 more). When it is reaches its limit I expect the AFRs to be down around 11:1. Sometimes these hybrids don’t make sense but this setup acts like it has a much larger hot side than it does.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

No.. You said "A turbo does nothing different when the fiery hot gases from a dsm are hitting are slamming into it's turbine compared to the fiery hot exhaust gasses from a subaru. I would look around for a more efficient alternative cause they're out there.".

Which shows that you actualy know little about EJ motors and turbocharging. You obviously have your experience with DSM's and not EJ's and you assume them to be the same motor or close. They are not.

I remember when Robert from FP posted that same thing... Inline 4 or boxer.. Same thing. haha. Boy at that single moment I knew he actualy knew little.

EJ motors are different and the more we work with them the more we learn now to make power with them. What works on a DSM normaly works like crap on a EJ motor.

Clark

No.. You said "A turbo does nothing different when the fiery hot gases from a dsm are hitting are slamming into it's turbine compared to the fiery hot exhaust gasses from a subaru. I would look around for a more efficient alternative cause they're out there.".

Which shows that you actualy know little about EJ motors and turbocharging. You obviously have your experience with DSM's and not EJ's and you assume them to be the same motor or close. They are not.

I remember when Robert from FP posted that same thing... Inline 4 or boxer.. Same thing. haha. Boy at that single moment I knew he actualy knew little.

EJ motors are different and the more we work with them the more we learn now to make power with them. What works on a DSM normaly works like crap on a EJ motor.

Clark
You are just tryin to break my balls or what? I pretty much assumed I was off by your first comment now you are not going to explain anything to me rather just laugh in my face because of my statement? :rolleyes:


Excuse me while I cower away from your vast wiseness and while you diss a pretty ****in sweet turbo shop.


Thanks but no thanks.

Congratulations, the dyno plot looks fantastic.

This turbo is very interesting as I remember thinking that’s a really small exhaust housing and wasn’t expecting much out of it. When we actually started tuning (road) I noticed it was very “laggy” for being such as small hot side, and then I noticed how lean I could run the car without the egts going through the roof. That just means it’s very much in its efficiency range and we don’t need extra fuel to keep things cool or excessive ignition advance.

The bottom line is that 340 whp for 18 psi is really, really good considering we are no where near maxed out on pump fuel (maybe +35 more). When it is reaches its limit I expect the AFRs to be down around 11:1. Sometimes these hybrids don’t make sense but this setup acts like it has a much larger hot side than it does.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
a couple quick questions-

phil, what EGTs would you consider as "through the roof"?

reason being, i have an SR50 which is a GT30R-11...and currently, im only leaning it out to 11.1:1-11.2:1 or so. EGTs are only 1500 at the top of 3rd, and 1560 at the top of 4th. i think i still have some room to lean it out a bit, but dont really know whats safe to shoot for.

also- what does the timing look like? on our winter gas, all i can run is 16-17 degrees up top...and even that low, i occasionally get 1 knock event.

thanks in advance...

You are just tryin to break my balls or what? I pretty much assumed I was off by your first comment now you are not going to explain anything to me rather just laugh in my face because of my statement? :rolleyes:


Excuse me while I cower away from your vast wiseness and while you diss a pretty ****in sweet turbo shop.


Thanks but no thanks.


Hahahah... I needed a good laugh this morning! :p

....

....

While there is things to be learned from the DSM crowd, like cams and head porting = impressive peak power. Somethings should be thought on... like 35psi on the dyno/strip and just replace the crap that breaks. (IE make stupid huge power for a short time). And somethings should be ignored. Like turbo selection. A big16G? errr.... Thanks I'll take a VF39 as they are cheap and fit. If I want more... Well A 20G is mostly pointless from what I've seen. A 8cm green sounds decent. As does most of the "diesel" turbos Garrett sells as they have hotsides that are of respectible size instead of like say the 30R which has a tiny hotside.

14.5 you need to learn to stay on topic and use the search button else you better double up that flame suit cause C wont be the only one barkin at ya.

The obvious change when going from DSM to specifically the STI is the change in capacity. Straight away this changes the turbo requirements as you are not needing so much boost pro-rata to flow the same air.

The long headers of the ej engines are more significant because of the way they change the pulse tuning point, and that they are traditionally qiute small in diameter. Although the WRC headers are a good 7" shorter, they do not hinder the spoolup of the turbo (which is obviously tailored to the job). Then there is the longer branches of the inlet manifold etc.

So it's different at least. I think we are only just grasping the details of the EJ engine, and for the first time looking at getting power and driveability at sensible boost, and not just putting on a massive turbo running lots of boost and getting a 2000rpm power band and not much power for our outrageous boost.

Paul

a couple quick questions-

phil, what EGTs would you consider as "through the roof"?

reason being, i have an SR50 which is a GT30R-11...and currently, im only leaning it out to 11.1:1-11.2:1 or so. EGTs are only 1500 at the top of 3rd, and 1560 at the top of 4th. i think i still have some room to lean it out a bit, but dont really know whats safe to shoot for.

also- what does the timing look like? on our winter gas, all i can run is 16-17 degrees up top...and even that low, i occasionally get 1 knock event.

thanks in advance...

Through the roof would be over 890C but from what I remember we were in the 1550F area while running about 21 degrees at 6K rpm. I’m generally comfortable with up to 875C on my own car but anything over that doesn’t sit well with me for extended hard running.

Honestly the SR50 is no Garrett GT30R even though the compressor and turbine wheels are the same. You didn’t mention what boost you’re running but I would have to say your hot side is seriously restrictive given your ignition timing and AFR ratio as it relates to your egts (given stock engine and heads). Keep in mind compressor maps only tell half the story.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Through the roof would be over 890C but from what I remember we were in the 1550F area while running about 21 degrees at 6K rpm. I’m generally comfortable with up to 875C on my own car but anything over that doesn’t sit well with me for extended hard running.

Honestly the SR50 is no Garrett GT30R even though the compressor and turbine wheels are the same. You didn’t mention what boost you’re running but I would have to say your hot side is seriously restrictive given your ignition timing and AFR ratio as it relates to your egts (given stock engine and heads). Keep in mind compressor maps only tell half the story.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
boost is about 20-22 in the midrange and tapers to 18-19.

with summer gas, i can run 19-20 degrees up top...which is still lacking, but our winter gas really really sucks, so i had to lower the timing quite a bit.

yeah, i know the SR50 sucks balls...but im trying to make the best out of it while i have it. (thinking of beefing up the block and getting a new rotated mount setup...but not immediately)

After talking to Phil today, we both came to a general hunch. We both think that this housing is a bit larger than the reported .57 AR that Slowboy has listed. This is based off of spool data from my car, Phil's general tuning experience, and some observations I made comparing this to my SR50 turbo (.63AR supposedly).

http://users.rcn.com/wgknestrick/IMG_0357.jpg

This picture shows the SR50 on the left, GT30-12 right. Notice how the inlet DIA is significantly larger on the GT30-12. This might not be obvious from this pic, but the GT30-12 inlet is perfectly port matched to the uppipe gasket. If you look at the SR50, you can see how much smaller it is by looking at the carbon stains and outline of where the gasket was.

Both housings have about the same outside dimensions so they both look small, but the Slowboy appears to have much "larger" areas on the inside of the volute, maybe allowing more flow. We do not have have any factual data to back this up, but a number of things seem to point this way now.

bill, the inlet is definately bigger but form that picture it looks like by the time it makes the turn at the bottom of the inlet its narrower than the sr50 is. It might just be the anlge playing tricks on me.... got any more shots to compare? Any idea what the difference between the turbine wheels themselves might be if any? One things for sure the scroll looks to be alot fatter on the sbr.

it looks like about 0.57 to me. However, the A/R on it's own is not the whole story, you really need the throat area or radius and the A/R to fully define it.

The APS and SBR turbos could easily have the same A/R on the turbine housing, but the SBR certainly has an increased throat area, which also results in greater size throughout the housing.

having said all that though, the angle of the pic is misleading, the SBR turbo is closer to the lens, and everything appears larger. Zoom right in and take the pic with cam further away for a more even perspective.

Paul

Sadly, the turbo is on my car now, and I'm not taking it off just for a pic. The throat area is what I was commenting on. I took the above picture and while the perspective is not spot on, the DIA is indeed much larger, I just wish that I had slapped my calipers on it.

The rest of the pics are here
http://users.rcn.com/wgknestrick/

Pic#s 354-358 are all of the turbos side by side.

What I think is kind of hilarious is that all midsized to larger turbos, from a performance perspective, between them they are not making that much of a difference in peak horsepower on pump gas. Most of these turbos are not in there efficiency zone. To talk about exhaust housings choking off hp is kind of silly when it's at 340 awp on pump gas. Really is there that much of a difference? I know of GT35 2.4 built motor that puts out 340 awp on a mustang dyno with 91, with 95 octane and more boost puts out 400 awp. Now that's impressive, I don't think the green will touch it on that dyno, just based on MarkSTI results on the Vishnu dyno.

well...maybe this spring, i should slap on that slowboy -11 exhaust housing i have sitting in a box in my garage... :lol:

http://users.rcn.com/wgknestrick/IMG_0358.jpg
that housing makes the sr50 look like a bitch! what numbers did you get out of that sr50?

Im buying the -13 with the bigger compressor housing wonder what that will do =)

I know of GT35 2.4 built motor that puts out 340 awp on a mustang dyno with 91, with 95 octane and more boost puts out 400 awp. Now that's impressive, I don't think the green will touch it on that dyno, just based on MarkSTI results on the Vishnu dyno.
Here in CA, the gas to a large exent is the limiting factor...
My older brother has a EVO with about $17,000 in drivetrain/power mods..
Full AMS GT35R kit with manifold/intercooler upgrade/cams/works throttle body now i think, etc...

On pump gas it on was able to get maybe a 35-40 WHP gain over the factory unit, race gas more like 150+ WHP.. :eek: :huh:

My green ran out of breath about 370 WHP on Vishnu dyno/410-420ish on a dyno jet...pushin 26-27 #'s of boost...That is why now i have a GT30-12 on the way along with a stronger motor.. :lol: :banana:


As Mnavarro said...u gotta be in the zone...which out here in CA translates into u gotta have some race gas in ur tank.

Mark

As Mnavarro said...u gotta be in the zone...which out here in CA translates into u gotta have some race gas in ur tank.

Mark

You Cali guys might really benefit from a decent alky injection kit.

You Cali guys might really benefit from a decent alky injection kit. and a 55 gallon drum of tolulene.

and a 55 gallon drum of tolulene.

Im partial to methanol injection cause I am cheap :D

I bought $15 worth in October and Ive still got half of it left!

no matter how you get there it beats running that 91 piss gas. =\

no matter how you get there it beats running that 91 piss gas. =\

Yeah...that must really stink. And, dont they also oxygenate it in the winter as well?

But, its amazing how far one can stretch pump gas with the right trickery as long as you dont get too crazy with the timing advance. On my car, timing breaks things alot faster than boost does!

Yup...timing breaks things fast...i've heard to many stories about that already:(

Some guys i know around here with bigger upgraded turbos don't even get 91 maps...they just have the shop tune in 94-95 octane maps and mix up 100/91 fuel.

I have seen them pickup about 40-50 WHP compared to straight 91.

bout the only plus side to living in nj is the 94 readily available at the pump and at a nice price since we refine here as well. now back to your regualrly scheduled programming.

so is the SR55 basically a GT30R w/ 12 CHRA?

Its a bolt on gt30r with a 12 cart just don't forget the part about the subaru flanging. Hopefully there will be more numbers from rotated mount sti's with real gt30r's to prove how good the s55's and sbr12's compare.