So far I've bought the 15' fuel line with -6AN fittings with 1/4" male ends and an adjustable needle valve from Hoseman in Irwindale, CA, a Hobbs pressure switch from atp.turbo.com, a 180 degree 12v shut off solenoid with 1/4" npt female inlets from liftstolease.com, and also an adjustable air pressure regulator used on compressors from Sears. I just need to get the OPD cc1 fitting to connect to the propane tank and the actual tank. I may use a quick disconnect fitting though. As far as tapping it into the intake I was wondering if I should use a single inlet nozzle used in nitrous applications or just drill and tap a 1/4" npt thread and use a 1/4" fitting direct to the intake pipe. I will still be able to control flow through the adjustable needle valve and air pressure regulator. I am also going to use the solenoid control off the UTEC. So far parts cost a little over $100.
I'll figure out how I'm going to mount the tank so it's easily accessable. I also thought about fabricating a sealed crash box out of square steel tubing and sheet aluminum, plus venting to the outside with some rubber hose. I can't wait to get this in so I can be running 100+ octane from crappy CA 91 oct. Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated.

I thought propane was for deisel only.


Learn something new everyday.
-George

EDIT:


see post below for infomation once I looked it up instead of off the top of my forgetful head

i heard propane is 110+ octane... you've got my interest so keep us informed

http://www.importpoweronline.com/propanecontent.html

How much water does that linked page hold after reading that it only costs $3 to fill up the tank? Around here, if you can find it for under $20, you're damn lucky.

well i do not have the chart I thought was in this book. It only mentions propane as part of LPG which is higher than 100.


LPG = liquid petroleum gas = butane and propane with combined RON > 100
( i mistakenly thought LPG was liquid propane gas in above post, which I will edit out.)

( btw source is pg 240, Automotive Handbook , Bosch 1996)

http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F_Gasoline9.html
this link mentions propane, so I was definately mistaken about its octane rating ( quotes 112).. but I was right on the CNG being 120 octane.

Woah. I was talking to my roommate about this earlier today. Must be a sign. I'm subscribing to this one.

So what kind of engine management modification does propane injection require?

do you have to add fuel to compensate? does it inject just propane or propane and fuel together? how big is the tank? how much does it hold?

propane is fuel. you add it to air.

Here's a pic of the tank I plan to use:
http://www.propaneshop.com/images/10006.jpg
I chose this size since it is compact. I'll have the valve end of the tank pointing to the back of the car in the trunk, center mounted behind the rear seats.
I'll be injecting propane right before the throttle body where it will mix with the gas/air in the combustion chamber. I'll be installing this sometime this week. Since UTEC has solenoid control, I won't be using the Hobbs boost activated switch. If your don't have UTEC or your em doesn't have an external solenoid control, you can use the Hobbs switch. I can monitor the level of propane by the guage built in the tank. Later on I may buy the ews (early warning system) by www.importpoweronline.com for a little more piece of mind.

Please don't get rear-ended.

you are in LA...please tell me why you wouldnt use WI instead?

you need to check out the legality of mounting a propane tank in your vehicle passenger space. I knmow there are regulations with fuel cells, I bet therre are stricter regulations for propane. Even nitrous requires the blowdown tube if it is in teh passenger space.

How do you transport you propane bottle when your getting it refilled? I'm sure it's not mounted down or have a blowdown tube.

you are in LA...please tell me why you wouldnt use WI instead?

Finally installed it. There was previously knock on stistageIIolf on Utec. Had been running stage II -3 degrees timing on whole map to compensate for 91 oct. I had it on for a few days and didn't notice anything different so I checked my wiring between the relay and solenoid negative trigger wire. Found out I forgot to connect ignition to the solenoid. I'll be incorporating two leds, one for confirmation relay is getting ignition, two for when solenoid is open. Right now I'm just have a needle valve controlling flow of Propane, three full turns from closed. I had an air regulator for an air compressor from Sears I was using but it leaked so I removed it until I get another one.

Don't have enough $$ to get tuned yet but I'm sure I won't have any more knock on unmodified stistageIIolf. Feels alot better running on high octane for the price of CA 91 and a few bucks on propane. I set the solenoid window to 2500 rpm turn on, 8000 turn off, everything else set to 0 and up, turn off delay 3 seconds.

Anyone know of any device that could control gas flow that is boost proportionate? That way it doesn't just dump what ever flow the needle valve is adjusted to. Also any type of pressure guage device that has an electrical trigger to alert when tank is below a certain pressure? I would wire up another led and maybe piezo to alert me of this.

you are in LA...please tell me why you wouldnt use WI instead?

^^^^^WI is FAR-FAR less problematic and cheaper, too....

heres a link to an existing kit. perhaps it might give you some additional ideas for control. http://www.importpoweronline.com/propanecontent.html

Ive seen these on a 3000gt-VR4 with upgraded turbos, when tuned it definitely takes care of octane issues.
IMO i wouldnt go this route..im too scared of gas leaks and rear end collisions. ;)

I will be fabricating a crash cage out of welded square tubular steel, sheet aluminum, and rubber molding to make an air tight seal and will also vent to the outside. There are also propane leak dectector devices that can be used and also a shut off switch within driver's reach. By using fuses at the source of power is another safety feature. By using the shut off fuel solenoid it always stays closed unless it sees a negative trigger from Utec solenoid control or Hobbs boost activated switch, when there is no ground signal it automatically shuts off and by using +ignition as the power source, the solenoid stays off when car is off.

have any pictures of the setup?

I'll post some pics up tomorrow.

I'm a big fan of Toulene. This just doesn't seem very safe.

DP

Sorry for the delay, here are the pics:
Didn't carpet the board yet, just temporary. I'll actually make a new panel out of aluminum to replace the spare tire cover.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p119762d24af954566078220513fd7e3f/f519ad1f.jpg
Here is where I tapped the ic piping before the throttle body using a 1/4" to 1/8" npt pipe bushing and 1/4" npt nut with 1/4" female to female 90 degree fitting.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/pd8e910c881f5cb4026c6343f8314ae9f/f519ab57.jpg
Then I used a 1/4" male to male adapter to a 1/4" female t fitting to connect to a Hobbs pressure switch. The switch is connected to a relay circuit to activate a couple leds on my dash console to left of the steering wheel. The I use -6 AN fittings and 1200 psi steel braided reinforced line.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p8f86f04fae24fefc16d2e0ffdfd96cea/f519ab54.jpg
One led turns on when pressure switch senses flow and the other when flow is less than 4 psi.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p84af33186aaea71f248dbe0d2e7f38db/f519ab5d.jpg
This shows 1200 psi steel braided reinforced line going through a grommet through the firewall. It is then run under the carpet along the side rail to the trunk.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p5eb79fbb1ce5ff204ff0fce7fe84bdfe/f519ab5b.jpg
The system has been feeling great. I have it activate above 2300 rpm and at -4 psi of boost so at idle it's not on. But when it kicks in, torque steer like a MFR! It surges forward with force as soon as propane and turbo boost meet. I'll have to fine tune it when I get it dynoed.

this is great finally ppl who think this is a good idea, my dad was the head of an NGV (natural gas for vehicles) project with the Canadian and Ontario govt's and had pushed it at racing ppl due to the high octane ratings of natural gas and propane, but ppl werewvery closed minded about it here. This is amazing!!! i want to see dyno numbers after tuning.

Oh by the way natural gas has a higher octane rating then propane, and if u ever wanted to go to a completely LEGAL cylinder to hold your gas, just lemme know i have tons of tanks here at home in many sizes. They were designed to be mounted under vehicles and a crash tested and aproved, also bullit proof and my dad has the test videos to prove that. If u have any questions about propane and natural gas in a car shoot me a PM sometime i'm sure i can get u an answer.

MAC

Show me some pics of the tanks you have. Are they for propane also and do they guages. I could use natural gas but where could I have it filled? Do you have any links on info of natural gas injection?

its refreshing to see something different. quit hating on this guy.

"Nasioc, the enemy of innovation"

^^ What he said. There are plenty tuners who are using propane to raise octane levels in turboed cars.

I say let him do it, because its one of the many advances we should keep open in raising octane...

I, myself, dont feel safe injecting water in my engine.

Water injection means you don't explode in an accident. Seems like a pretty boro setup, no offense. Maybe if this setup was designed with safety first thing in mind (a propane tank fitted to a wooden board with nothing surrounding it? Please, barbecues have more protection) I could agree with it but I think what you're doing is just hazardous to yourself and the people you commute with. Even if it does kill knock.

focus on the ****ing tech, not the damn tank he is using. the tank can easily be changed for an impact resistant one.

what is special about the tech? I mean home depot has indoor forklifts that run on propane, its not bleeding edge.

What I want to see him do is put a voltage clamp on his MAF / MAP so it stops reading air at say 5ish psi of boost and then use something with a 2d map to provide propane instead of gas for the remainder of his fuel. None of this "additional" injection, how about replacement injection and then see how much boost it will run, or explore the limits of the MAP sensor you choose for this propane controller :)

You better hope you don't get rear ended. A propane tank setting in close proximity to the gas tank is not a good idea. Plus I believe those cylinders are designed to vent gas when they get hot. So in the summer you might have a nice trunk full of propane.

My father ran CNG in the majority of our cars when I was growing up, and the tank was the most expensive part of the system. It had to be able to take a large impact. Taking this system out on the streets is not a good idea.

ya my dad didn't think this was to great of an idea to use that tank,atleast on the street.
Also when i said Natural gas has a higher octane level it doesn't, but u could still use it. its safer to carry.the tanks we have rite now are setup with natural gas type valves on them but you could easily have them setup for propane use. honesty i don't know what your gunna do for filling, if u were here where i live i could tell a place to go to to have it all fited and fillers put into the system and have it all secured permanently in the car, wich would be safer. But out there i have no idea on what to tell ya.

i'll get some pics of the tanks when my bro comes homw with my camera, wich who knows when that'll be

The tank I'm using is used in RVs, isn't that a vehicle? Hmm, that must mean they have to pass some type of regulations to have them on an RV. The manufacture of that tank is Manchester Tank. This was taken from their site: "All cylinders conform with strict compliance to DOT specifications 4BA, 4BW and 4E. In addition, most cylinders conform and are approved under Transport Canada specifications 4BAM, 4BWM and 4EM."

what is special about the tech? I mean home depot has indoor forklifts that run on propane, its not bleeding edge.


yeh, nothing nice at all about mixing fuels to raise octane. but it's better than acting like a bunch of safety police about the tank. the tank can be changed easily.

The tank I'm using is used in RVs, isn't that a vehicle? Hmm, that must mean they have to pass some type of regulations to have them on an RV. The manufacture of that tank is Manchester Tank. This was taken from their site: "All cylinders conform with strict compliance to DOT specifications 4BA, 4BW and 4E. In addition, most cylinders conform and are approved under Transport Canada specifications 4BAM, 4BWM and 4EM."

not to try to talk you down 'cause I like what you're doing but aren't those transoptaion regulations? As in the requierments needed to pop the tank off your BBQ and go to the store for a new full propane tank and not for permenent in car use/street use.

Interesting stuff none-the-less. I myself am a tolune fan, cheap easy and effective.

Last I checked water wasn't flamable. I was subscribed to this thread from the beginning. I can't see how this is a benefit as far as I am driving around with a bomb in the trunk. I used to go get my propane refilled, and have the tank in the front seat so it didn't roll around to much, and I would think, "what if I get hit right now?" That friggin tank better be made out of miraculousonium...I read the post about the tanks that are impact resistant or road approved. I hope that tank made out of HY-80 steel. And yes the tech of it is cool, but I am not going to rush out and buy a car powered by hydrogen either.


DP

Tuolene (sp?) is good stuff as well, but of course because it raises the effective octane of the fuel through a chemical additive, it also doesn't produce the same efficient flame front that simply using fuel that was REFINED to the proper octane (Yes I am aware that even some race fuels use this method aka VP). Propane is neat, but I will stick to my refined 109 leaded fuel and a full bottle of nitrous.

:rolleyes: tolune is not cheap. 3 to 20 dollars month is better then $12 a tank. propane is cool. i dont think you will blow up. :lol: anyway some cars blow up when rear ended because of gas tank position. just the price of a combustable engine.good job no the do it you self. ;)

bumping for updates and subscribe

Propane is neat stuff. There is a local here who comes by occasionally to chat turbo who is building a propane powered turbocharged flathead truck.

Water doesnt blow the hell up when you get into an accident, propane does. I drive slow when I have scuba tanks in the car and thats just slightly enriched compressed air. There is no way I'd drive in any lane but the right lane with my flashers on with a propane tank installed in my trunk.

Look at all the RV's tooling down the road with HUGE propane tanks bolted to their rear bumpers. Personally, I don't think that the safety issue is all that great. Kudos for trying it out on a Subie. DSM boys have been doing it for years. Turbo diesel guys have also been running it for years. Now, I wonder what would happen with propane, water, and nitros? :D

...I set the solenoid window to 2500 rpm turn on, 8000 turn off, everything else set to 0 and up, turn off delay 3 seconds...


Set your turnoff delay to 0 seconds. With it the way it is now, you are continuing to spray propane into your intake, even when you let off of the gas to shift. This propane is recirculating through your intake and through your turbo compressor as your recirc-valve opens up. If it got hot enough in your compressor housing, the propane could ignite and explode. If you are venting to atmosphere, well then you are basically purging a huge cloud of propane into your engine bay all over hot engine items.

Set it to zero! Otherwise, cool setup.

Jeff

bumping for updates and subscribe

maybe the op blew up? :eek:


:lol:

frankly i don't think a lot of folks on here understand how much MORE energy there is in a tank of petrol than there is in a 20lb propane tank.

Last I checked water wasn't flamable.
And gas isn't either -- that's why it's so safe. :rolleyes:

Wow, I really want to see what kind of power it has, and how well it works over time.

And gas isn't either -- that's why it's so safe. :rolleyes:

Good job on missing the entire point!! The gasoline is in a crash-tested container mounted OUTSIDE the vehicle. The water and propane are INSIDE the vehicle.

I wouldn't mount it inside the vehicle myself, but to each his own. If it was possible to just use a NO2 cylinder setup but fill it with propane instead, that's about as good as you could do. Especially one of them kevlar coated ones. :banana: :banana:

What about a helium tank? Shouldn't be hard to fit it with the proper fittings and those things really are tanks.

What about those small 1lb bottles that are made by coleman? Could they be used instead of a big tank? Sure, they dont hold much, but they are easily mounted and more stealth. I dont know what rate you are consuming your propane at, how many gph are you injecting and how long does your tank last you?

Jeff

Im doing about the same just im peacing together a complete propane unit, converting my car to pure LPG no more fossil fuel consumption...

Im doing about the same just im peacing together a complete propane unit, converting my car to pure LPG no more fossil fuel consumption...


are u really?

go on honda-tech. com and msg this guy "hazw8st"

he does it on hondas he is also socal

nice!!
thanks for the heads up!!

Im doing about the same just im peacing together a complete propane unit, converting my car to pure LPG no more fossil fuel consumption...

That's hot. Anyone have any links to info on this stuff, or know why people don't use acetoline((sp?)maybe it burns too hot or not clean enough)? What kinda economy are we talkin about? I know you're not supposed to put bigger then a 30lb(I think it's 30lb) tank in an enclosed car, so would it be hard to make long trips? Maybe I should do a search:). eh,

peace

The honda tech guy dones know anything he told me i cant convert because once i go to lpg i cant go back to gas wich is horse poop because prins converts cars all the time the only problem is they in huston, check this out
http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums/2000-propane-mustang-gt-p-1sc-vt1299.html

Im doing about the same just im peacing together a complete propane unit, converting my car to pure LPG no more fossil fuel consumption...


I'd like to see it done. Will there be a power hit or can you make the same #'s on LPG?

Isn't LPG still a fossil fuel or can you make that from corn too?

are u really?

go on honda-tech. com and msg this guy "hazw8st"

he does it on hondas he is also socal

Or go to Belize (Central America), those bastards drive around with two huge propane tanks on ther rears of their trucks. It's not for power or for price, it's because it's available. You try and find a Mobil station in the middle of the rainforest.

Now, I wonder what would happen with propane, water, and nitros? :D

I actually got to see this very thing on a Dodge Ram SRT-10 twin turbo last March. It worked really well, until the bottom end gave up. ...and by gave up, I mean strung itself along 1/4 mile of track. :eek:

Running propane injection on a properly designed tank well mounted is no more dangerous than running gasoline.

Gasoline is actually more dangerous than propane in an accident, since when propane is released it is super cooled, and tends to stay low and displace oxygen, whereas gasoline evaporates and mixes with it.

and propane requires a perfect a/f ratio to ignite so is less volitile to ignition...

A couple years ago, there was a big accident up here with a propane truck, it got split open on the highway.

There were some really freaky photos of rescue workers waist-deep in clouds of propane... but no fire.

and propane requires a perfect a/f ratio to ignite so is less volitile to ignition...

Conceptually, there can be lotsa problems. I'd think that you'd either you need extra air/oxygen to propane, or someone could light your exhaust on fire. Or what happens to the unused propane? That could be fun I guess.... It would also be kinda funny seein someone drivin around with propane and oxygen tanks in their car(searches more)....

Or go to Belize (Central America), those bastards drive around with two huge propane tanks on ther rears of their trucks. It's not for power or for price, it's because it's available. You try and find a Mobil station in the middle of the rainforest.

For real. Belize is sooooooo badass. I went to Ambergris Caye, Belize (forget spelling). Such a nice tropical rainforest, with villagers and sh**. and if your tall enought o reach the bar, your old enough to drink.


Back on topic. Nice work, thats something new to me. I really wanna see the numbers after you get tuned. The only thing Id really be concerned about other than the tank holding up in an accident, would be the lines ran through the car. I would run them under the car, up high enough to not be cut when driving or anything like that. Would definately take some time to run them that way, but seems much safer. You dont want that leaking into the car.

One question though, Does it smell hella bad?????? I know how propane smells, and when I get a tank filled up, and put it in the car, damn it stinks. Hows the smell?

hello all I know this thread died last year but I just read it for the first time. I want all the info I can get on propane injections Im in the middle of putting a twin turbo 1uzfe (toyotas 4.0 DOHC) together the pair of ICs Im using for this are only good for about 10 psi of boost so Ive been concidering a propane injection for the project to bring the boost up to 15-18 psi range. Ive read all the post in this section and think some of you fokes are not looking at the hold picture as far as the tank goes and the safety of propane. the only reason you can smell propane is a adjtive the propain its self has no smell.

Id also like to ask the guy in canada about the lpg tanks he has Id like to get one of them if he has any small enough for my app.

Thanks all
Scott

Id also like to ask the guy in canada about the lpg tanks he has Id like to get one of them if he has any small enough for my app.

Thanks all
Scott

Just get a small Manchester tank they are dot approved.

Update, I'm going towards Methanol injection, Coolingmist actually with the high speed valves and direct port. I'll be getting tuned the 23rd this month.