So here we are, with such a fantastically cool cars with horribly weak gearboxes. You've seen the WRC Subarus come into service and the first thing that goes under the car is a new transmission right? I swear those guys should just have a big compartment above the tranny for spares; pull a lever and the worn one drops out and a new one drops into its place, kind of like a Pez dispenser for trannies.

Here's my question: what's available to us as far as solutions for our stock transmissions? Are there modifications we could make to make the gears stronger? How available are performance gearboxes like the newer STi 6-speeds?

Post your thoughts below, hopefully we can come up with something to solve our transmission woes.

~Garrett

Sti gearset.
Dog box,
thats about it, I have seen an RS with an Audi 4000 driveline not quite sure what's involved in that though

The 6 speed wont fit a GC8 without serious work cuz the new tranny is bigger I think.

kind of like a Pez dispenser for trannies


:lol: I need one :D.

ISR subarucare sells transmissions that are alot stronger than our stockers...

Originally posted by RageHardIntoTheBendies
I have seen an RS with an Audi 4000 driveline not quite sure what's involved in that though

WOW!!!! thats messed up! some friends of mine were looking at that possibilty just the other day, when we took his RS gear box out to change 5th gear syncro. and we had an older 4000 trans. (with the close ratio gearing) laying around and were about to throw it away. But wanted to look at the posibleity or makeing some kind of adapter plate. But that realy wont work the audi bell houseing is longer, so you would need a custom flywheel that would be about 4 in. thick and then the front axle's would be too far back. But something can be done it would be a TON of work and $$$ but we will prob. get started on it this winter. The Audi 4000 trans is about as grenade proof as you can get for a production AWD tans. Plus! it has an extra selector for the locking center dif.!!

I've pretty much figured out every thing that has to be done. I've still got to research the ratio of the front dif in the audi and see if I can find a new ratio for the subie rear end that matches. But the only trick I still don't know how I'm gona pull off is the speedo! The subie has an electric speedo sencor in the trans and the audi has a mec. one. Other than that all it's gona take is a ton of $$$

Do you know how I can get a hold of that guy and compair notes?!! How long ago was this and were is he located?

-Caine
HYD Racing

pretty sure it was theese guys http://www.eurosportrally.com/

I know one of them posts here on the board too.

You don't need a custom flywheel, you need a custom driveshaft =). And that eliminates the rear wheel placement problem too =).

no I'v done all the measuring with the 2 diffrent trans. side by side. And the Audi bell houseing is mutch longer than the subie one so by the time you bolt on an adapter plate and bolt the whole mess to the eng. the input shaft isn't going to reach the clutch disk let alone seat the tip of the input shaft into the carrier bearing in the flywheel. And because it is easeier to have a custom flywheel made than it is to have a custom input shaft what you would have is a custom flywheel that is many inches thick and weighs a ton, and even if you did this you would have to push the hole eng. forward to line the FRONT axles properly with the FRONT wheels (if you reread my post you would see that I never mentioned the rear wheels, a custom drive shaft would have to happen no matter what we do). Moveing the eng. forward would mess up the weight balance and handeling of the car. welding the subie bell houseing to the audi gear box and getting it all streight wont be easy but it is the only way that you can keep everything were it belongs.

-Caine
HYD Racing

B-Spec will sell and install a Dogbox for you.
UPRD is working on making the Auto tranny stronger for drag racing.

Yea but I do not want a dog box for my daily driver.
And no way am I going to go slush box, no sir ;)

apparently the STI double hardened gearset will hold 300 ft/lbs, probably more than I'll ever have.

I know this might sound REALLY stupid but what about going with the WHOLE Audi 4000 driveline (engine, trans, axles, etc.)? :lol:

That's not really stupid, just a lot of work. The Eurosport Manhattan Impreza (to be driven by Andrew Hadjiminas at Mine Forest) uses an Audi Quattro transmission and rear differential. I don't know what they use for axles but they still use the Subaru hubs and struts. Keep in mind that they have broken the Audi transmission before. It is a strong stock tranny but you are pushing your luck when you start going much over 300-350hp.

Does anyone know more about the 12v V6 in hadjiminas' fox?

Before this thread wandered off into Audi hybrid land, it was generally about current and future transmission options for modified Imprezas. To my mind, this is the most important issue in the Subaru aftermarket today.

Conventional wisdom has it that the stock transmission is fine up to about 300 hp. Obviously, this figure varies with driving style -- I know folks who need new clutches every 20,000 miles; I've still got the original clutch in my car at 168,000. But I think it's safe to say that if you plan to go far past 300 hp, you'd better plan on transmission modifications.

As far as I know, there are only two real options today -- the 6-speed STi gearbox, and various dogbox gearsets with straight-cut gears. Now, there is apparently some debate as to just how much stronger the STi gearbox is than stock, and I'd really like to know more about this. Of course, the various dogbox gearsets are plenty strong, but straight-cut gears make them unappealing for use on a street car. Are there any other options for streetable transmissions that can hold more than 300 hp?

What makes this question so important is that it impacts many other issues of frequent discussion. For example, consider the oft-discussed debate of which is the better basic platform -- the EJ20 or the EJ25. This is an important issue for me, as I'm trying to decide whether to buy a WRX or an RS. But the transmission question has a huge impact on this issue. If the stock tranny won't hold past 300 hp, then the EJ20 vs EJ25 debate splits into two very different questions:

1) Which is the better platform for serious hp, assuming you're going to a dogbox in any case?

2) Which is the cheaper platform for a reliable 300 hp, since you want to stay with helical gears for a street car?

These are, obviously, very different questions. I'd love to know more about the STi tranny, as well as any other (strong, but streetable) options currently available or under development that I don't know about. Anybody?

Conventional wisdom has it that the stock transmission is fine up to about 300 hp

I assume you are refering to the new WRX hear as 300hp on a boosted RS will be putting far too much torqe for a stock tranny.
And that is the issue, gear boxes dont care about RPM so you want to be discussing ft\lbs instead of HP.
This is why in the UK gearbox problems are less frequent, I have seen several Dyno'd EJ20's that make 340hp & 280 ft|lbs which a stock tranny can handle. An EJ25 running 10+psi will be making way over 300 ft\lbs which will rip you gearbox apart in short order.

If you can live without sychros then ther are hellical cut dog gearset availble, which are alot quieter then the straight cut versions.

As for EJ20 vs EJ25 I personally think both motors can produce big power and can be tuned as Torque monstors or high reving screamers, it's all about how you go about tuning.

For a 300 ft|lbs street car I would go for a high compression EJ25 with a IHI turbo and the hardened STI gearset sfrom an RA, but that's me :D

Okay, thanks, this is good information. First, I didn't know that the WRX tranny is considerably different from the RS. Second, what are the implications of living without syncros? Who makes those dogboxes with helical gears? Prices? And how much would a hardened gearset from a Type RA go for?

I think the helical cut dog gears are made by guy named Sam Chalak I beleve, who makes gearsets for MRT etc. I thing most Dog sets are around the $3000 - $4000 depending if you half or full.
As for the RA gear set DMS-USA is they guy to ask.

You may want to check this thread for further info http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64227&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

I dont think the RS and WRX are actually different other than ratio's, the delivery of the power from the motors is significantley different, hence the longer life when aamted to the EJ20.

Living without Sychros just means you have to the work of bringing the gearbox up to speed, ie double cluching. I have never driven a dog box so I am no expert, Shiv or one of the others who are running this setup are far more qualified than I.

Yeah.. and Shiv's dogbox ate 3rd gear recently too.. Has the cause of that failure been discerned yet??

The transmission housing on the WRX uses twice as many bolts for attachment as the previous gen RS. They did this to try and reduce case flex. I have no idea if it actually works. In any case, they are not identical aside from the ratios.

Ok I was thinking of the GC8 wrx, but that is nice to know as I hear case flex is a major factor in the equation.

answering a small question:
Now, there is apparently some debate as to just how much stronger the STi (six speed) gearbox is than stock, and I'd really like to know more about this.

this is hard to answer because the STi six speed has been in end-user hands less than one year, and it is in ultra-high demand. Wrecked new Impreza STis won't have their gearbox for long... and a new one will set you back around $6,000-8,000 USD if you can actually get one. (They are building all they can, and selling all they build.)

in the future though, I see production increasing and this gearbox making its way into more subaru offerings than just the WRX STi. until then or until a Group N rally team tells you how much better the six speed box is (and if they used the stock gears or dog gears) then you'll know. or if autospeed does an article on it. ;)

it is physically larger and FHI says its stronger. that's all you and I know right now.

I read somewhere on the board that while the wrx tranny has more bolts, it still has bolts that will line up to the older GC8, so you can bolt it
in, but you're just not using all the holes.

As well, B-Spec designed a hardened synchro gearset that requires machining the inside of the
stock transmission case.

Actually, while we're on the subject,does anyone have any thoughts on how strong older GC8 JDM WRX transmissions are in comparison to North American RS boxes?

From what I've heard (meaning very little) the JDM WRX boxes around 97 are pretty strong- if that's the case, picking up one of those seems to be a pretty cost effective way to get a stronger tranny-

It only becomes expensive becuse you have to change to a pull type cluch also. The cheapest setup for around 260 - 280 ft|lbs is to rebuild you RS's box with a legacy turbo gearset.

Has anyone thought about the drive train from like a porsche are getting Level 10 to build a gearset.. possibly one with just rear whell drive so we can use normal dyno's? Didn't Cusco have a rear wheel drive Impreza at one point.. I know they did in GT 2

Brad

I have been told by a few differnet people that the problem is case flex. If the case could be made stiffer then the gears could hold up to more tourqe. It sure would be nice if a $500 or less trans brace solve the problem for us street guys.

I have been thinking about this for a bit. I own an old land cruiser, and while these things are pretty strong, one onf the weak points is the stock transmission. It suffers from case flex, and can split apart when seriouslly low gearing and high torque are fed into it. One of the popular solutions that seemed to work quite well in my cruiser was a brace that bolted onto the top plate and front of the case. Presto... stiffer case, and i never had another problem.

Could we do something like that with the WRX?

-Nathan

The CUSCO GC8 that is RWD uses a Hewland 6spd sequential gearbox. http://www.hewland-engineering.co.uk It can be yours for about $16,000.00. They also make the transmission for the Impreza WRC car which I assume you could buy from them and bolt right into your car.

-DUG-

In Turbo Magazine (this or last month's) they had a Supra that cranked out 866HP. The article said that the owner had a new tranny case machined out of titanium. They said it cost big bucks but I wonder just how much that is compared to a new full dog box or race tranny.

If flexing is indeed the problem, maybe someone should try this.

nmyeti- do you have pics of the brace for your landcruiser? What's it made of?
Maybe a titanium brace would do the trick for us.

Titanium? And you're going to compare the cost of building a titanium transmission to buying an existing dogbox like the WRC ones? I'm sure machining a new tranny from titanium far exceeds the cost of a 6-speed sequential. I bet that guy paid close to $20k for that custom box.

But if it cost more than a race tranny, why would anyone do it? Unless of course they have far too much money for their own good....

Please, even the trannies in the WRC are toast after 3-4 stages. This person had enough money to have a custom titanium tranny then he wanted it to last forever. As far as an investment goes that makes more sense. One $20k tranny that will last longer than 4 $15k trannies is a good deal.

Originally posted by mhj
nmyeti- do you have pics of the brace for your landcruiser? What's it made of?
Maybe a titanium brace would do the trick for us.

I'll look on the web for a picture. Since the transfer case is installed on the cruiser it would be very hard to get a good idea what it looks like...

If you can picture a flat plate with an I beam in in and a cross section that bolts to both the top and front of the transfer case... that might help.

-Nathan

We are all assuming that the stock WRX transmission is no good. What we should do is take a pole of all transmission failures, noting the modified HP and the miles. Some failures may just be normal defects. Others may be caused by excessive driving or more HP. If it turns out that the stock WRX transmission can last 100,000 miles, who cares. As for racing, although this is a good indicator, it may be a little extreme for our considerations. I will be watching imprezidents car very closely.

The MTR "unbreakable" syncros sound like the best street option. This, an ACT clutch, and lightened flywheel may be enough for 320 HP reliably. But again we just need data.

I think the STi option is too costly, and may not solve the 320 HP problem.

I don't think MRT has "unbreakable" synchro gearsets, just dog engagement ones. They have strengthened synchro gearsets but no one (not even they) seem to have any faith in them.

It seems the most failures are from drag racing (with high rpm clutch drops and/or racing clutches) and rallying.

From what I gather, our options are as follows in order of reliability under tough use, but not necessarily in order of price:
1. stock WRX/RS gears
2. Legacy Turbo gears
3. STi 6-Speed
4. BPM/Chalak or MRT hardened synchro gears
5. BPM/Chalak half dog box
6. Auto Tranny
7. BPM/Chalak or MRT Full Dog Box
8. Hewland or Quaiffe racing gearbox

Unexplored territory includes:
1. Tranny case hardening
2. Tranny case brace
3. ???? fill in the blank

Let me know if I left something out.

I'm not referring to WRX trannies here for the most. Those are too new here to have many tranny failures not due to stupidity. I'm more interested in options for the RS-T. And I'm going on data collected from numerous Subaru competition teams and owners in the UK. I heard that a Legacy turbo transmission was a tank and that makes the best cost-efficient replacement. If I go the 300+hp route I may do that.

The problem, as I'm finding out, is locating a Legacy Turbo to use for parts. Not many in any graveyards here, and I found one that already has the tranny, rear diff, and brakes all gone. Hmm, wonder what could have happened to that one? :rolleyes:

RallyNavvie- Someone must make a strong race/rally tranny since it's always Subaru that goes in for the tranny changes. In the last few rallies on Speedvision, I haven't seen any other car have a tranny problem (except for a slipping clutch or something), whereas it's been a problem for subaru this whole season.

Who makes the trannies for the other cars?

OK, this is just some random idea from the depths of my brain, so don't kick my ass if it sounds really stupid...

Are there any cars whose trannies we can steal for our WRX's and RS-T's? Assuming that it would fit, couldn't we use the transmission from a car with a strong transmission from the factory, most likely from a car that comes with high HP? We're doing the same thing when we talk about using the STi 6-speed, but why limit ourselves to Subaru? Why not find out if other car manufacturers happen to build and use a beefy tranny that would fit in our turbo cars? This could be cheaper, more convenient, and maybe even more dependable than the other options people have mentioned so far...

I've wondered about this too. I wonder if we could get one of the 6 speeds from Camaros/Firebirds or maybe a Tremec 5 speed to work. Either would hold the power most people are looking to make.

What about cryo treating the gears?, Or having the gears made out of titanium?, OR having the synchros and/or gears made out of titanium?

In Turbo Magazine (this or last month's) they had a Supra that cranked out 866HP. The article said that the owner had a new tranny case machined out of titanium. They said it cost big bucks but I wonder just how much that is compared to a new full dog box or race tranny.

I have heard from many people that a mkIV supra doesnt need a new tranny until around 1,000HP. But a supra tranny (stock 6speed) costs near $7000-$8000.

The cryo treatment on the gears has been tried and didn't make any difference, the new tranny broke too. Try a search for the specifics.

Dudes, you're all going off the deep end.

Legacy turbo transmissions are no stronger than anything else. Just ask Paul Eklund how many he's broken. Also, the U.S. spec WRX transmission only differs from the RS box in respect tothe ratios. It's no stronger or weaker.

If you want a strong synchro gearset get the STi HD "double treated" gearset, like came in the Version 5&6 RA models. It's a regular Subaru part now and the price has come down to around $700 or so. I know rally teams that have been using these in 270hp Group N cars in the WRC and the Asia Pacific and haven't broken them. They typically run 4 or 5 events on one before they take it out and inspect it. Bulletproof? Perhaps not, but the strongest thing you're going to find in a synchro gearset. Possum Bourne also had a similar gearset available, I guess he still does.

As far as a serious competition straightcut dogbox there are several manufacturers out there in Australia, Japan, and Europe. The best I know of is the Holinger unit. It is a Group N legal gearset that fits in the stock case. We have one of these for Pat Richard's Open class car that will be going together soon.

People put too much stock in all this talk of case flex. While it may be true that the case flexes under extreme torque and may even be a contributing factor to failures, there is no getting around the fact that the main problem is the gears are just too small. People are trying to push 300+ hp through a gearbox that was originally designed 25 years ago for an engine that put out something like 70hp. No manner of case strengthening plate (probably wouldn't help anyway) or titanium case is going to make up for the fact that the gears are too small.
The Holinger straight cut gears, for example, are nearly twice as thick as the stock gears.

I still can`t understand why no one makes a replacement tranny with syncro`s.

They would make a killing. Even if it cost $4-5k.

I`d pay that for something able to withstand 300-350 ft/lbs of torque, with syncros.

I`d rather replace my gears every so often as opposed to daily driving with dogs.

Bill

Originally posted by DMS-USA
Dudes, you're all going off the deep end.

Legacy turbo transmissions are no stronger than anything else. Just ask Paul Eklund how many he's broken. Also, the U.S. spec WRX transmission only differs from the RS box in respect tothe ratios. It's no stronger or weaker.

If you want a strong synchro gearset get the STi HD "double treated" gearset, like came in the Version 5&6 RA models. It's a regular Subaru part now and the price has come down to around $700 or so. I know rally teams that have been using these in 270hp Group N cars in the WRC and the Asia Pacific and haven't broken them. They typically run 4 or 5 events on one before they take it out and inspect it. Bulletproof? Perhaps not, but the strongest thing you're going to find in a synchro gearset. Possum Bourne also had a similar gearset available, I guess he still does.



DMS, 2 things;
1. do you have gear ratios for the STI HD gear set?
2. Are you ever going to return my email about suspension questions?

Thanks,
-Nathan

Nathan,

I've posted the STi HD gearset ratios on here recently. THe easiest thing would be to do a search. They are the the RA close ratios.

I will get back to your e-mail tonight. I'm still catching up from when I was gone for a week. Sorry for the delay. (Yeah I know, so what am I doing here? You know how it is, it's more fun to check the i-club before going to the e-mails.;) :o

Hey DMS,

Did you ever manage to get your hands on the part # for that gear set? We went over this a couple times in the past and you mentioned being able to track that info down; you may be too swamped to deal with that at the moment, however, if that is the case, is it possible you may point me in the right direction in regards to tracking/soliciting a part number for the old DH sti gear set?


SLR-

If you want one I can get you one. I am actually researching all the related parts needed to put one in an RS case. (There may be some shifter rod and synchro differences depending on the year, etc.) The intent is to put together a complete package so there is no surprises and perhaps do a group buy deal. It's always better to buy from the Japanese in quantity.

DMS,

Will you be putting any attention to fitment in an 02 WRX case? If this is not on your agenda and you are aware of incompatibility then I would assume order now and deal with R&D at my end; this is assuming your research isn't inclusive of the rex considering commonalities of their drive train. Let me know, I would be more than happy to send you ~700 dollars for an order or con you out of the part number and carry the deal to fruition myself. Let me know...


SLR-

DMS,
i also sent you a pm about gearsets from the sti ra. please keep us informed on this i am sitting on the cash and already talked to my dealer about doing the install so we are ready to go when you are.

I'm also interested in a GB. Actually, I'm sure that a whole lot of us RS turbo guys would be itching to get stronger gears.

I've wondered about this too. I wonder if we could get one of the 6 speeds from Camaros/Firebirds or maybe a Tremec 5 speed to work. Either would hold the power most people are looking to make.

Sure, if you really don't mind losing your AWD. If you want a RWD WRX, you open the door to a ton of domestic gearbox options.

Thank you Dave! I opened this thread in search of exactly what you just mentioned. I wanted a better gearbox to replace the one that I had in my RS so that it could handle more torque. I don't plan to run 350hp and 340lbs of torque, but maybe 300lbs of torque. Anything beyond that is dangerous as far as I'm concerned. I don't have experience driving Group B cars :rolleyes:

If you research the info and think of doing a group buy I will definitely be interested. $700 is a lot better than the $$ for an STi 6-speed, which would be overkill for what I want it for anyway. I just want to be able to rally-x the car and drive it to work.

You'll be hearing from me again in the future. I need a set of DMS Gold for my car.

~Garrett

I'd be interested in the STI RA gearset too... I looked at the ratio and it looks like we'll be bouncing off the rev limiter all the time if we get these... have you driven an RS w/ these? Thanks

::hops on the bandwagon:: Me, too! I'm looking to go turbo soon, and shudder at the thought of a dogbox :D

I just spoke with my Japanese STi supplier. We are researching all the related bits needed to install the HD gearset into one of our cases. There are some shift rods and shift forks that are a little bit different, and the HD gearset uses the steel synchros so we need need to make sure we have all the right parts to make for a smooth installation. That's why just having the part number for the gearset isn't going to help you much. I'm trying to put together a package with all the parts you need. These will go into any RS or WRX case. The only real difference internally is the position of the reverse idler, there is a 1mm difference between newer and older cases but we can supply the correct parts either way.
They are going to come up with a firmer price for me as well. That $700 was just a ballpark guess. The whole package will be more, but it will still be the best value. Give me a few days to get all the info. When I have some solid answers I will post on the Vendor Classifieds and start a formal sign up. I will find out how many gearset kits I can get, then it's first come, first serve. By buying in quantity we can get a better price and better shipping rate and they will be more motivated to fill the order quickly.

To answer a couple of questions:

Yes, this gearset will for sure fit a WRX case.

Yes, you can use it with your existing ring and pinion.

We have this gearset in Pat Richard's Open class rally car (but not for long, dogbox baby!:D ) as well as the 4.44 final drive ratio. You will not be bouncing off the rev limiter all the time, especially if you use the stock 4.11 or 3.90 ratio final drive. This is completely streetable even with the 4.44 gears. Freeway revs will be slightly higher because 5th gear is a bit shorter, but it's not a huge difference.

I'll keep you posted.

Keepin it up cause it's a good thread :P

For those of you looking for a synchro'd dog box, I have a brand new set made by Kaaz. I've received a number of enquiries from 2002 WRX owners but unfortunately after checking with Kaaz Japan, the gear sets are not compatible with the New Age gearbox. However, i believe for those who own '96 to '99 models, these will fit. I have scanned the pages of the entire manual so anyone who wants a copy, just drop me an email (janshim@brunet.bn). In the manual, Kaaz says not to run in a WRX with more than 368kW or 500ps of power, has no mention of actual torque they are designed for but i think that gives you an indication.

I dont think the ratios are meant for drags as they are too close. Would be perfect for circuit racing or even mountain driving. The transmission set uses spur gears from 1st to 3rd gear so there's some gear whine is expected during operation.

Here's a pic of an assembled Kaaz gear set.

Hrrmm straight cut cynchro gears...nice. I will call Ray at newport exotics and have him minquire on those gears for the WRX, and a price for the old set for you guys who may be curious.

Ken

Pretty gears...mmmm *drool*

I wonder if they'll hold up to the gear-eating machine (aka Subaru). I'm still more interested in these hardened sets since this will still be an everyday driver. Well at least for a few years until I retires to rally :D

Jan Shim - Do those KAAZ gears come in a variety of gear ratios? I'd like to be able to run a taller 4th and 5th and run the same ratio 1st-3rd so I won't compromise 0-100km/h acceleration and top speed.

Originally posted by RallyNavvie
Pretty gears...mmmm *drool*

I wonder if they'll hold up to the gear-eating machine (aka Subaru). I'm still more interested in these hardened sets since this will still be an everyday driver. Well at least for a few years until I retires to rally :D

good point.

-wop

They will hold up. They are expensive though, like $3000 for a honda set last time I checked.

They dont do custom ratios but do have a variety of ratios usually three for each application.

Ken

But for $3000 you can buy an STi 6-speed which would probably be a far better transmission for the money. Besides, it's STi so it has to be covered under warranty (Subaru aftermarket parts that are installed by a dealer mechanic) :p

And that STi Type RA set Dave talked about was cost-effective at ~$1000. I assume that set would last just as long. And as far as I'm concerned the more Subaru parts in my Subaru, the better.

~Garrett

Originally posted by RallyNavvie
But for $3000 you can buy an STi 6-speed which would probably be a far better transmission for the money. Besides, it's STi so it has to be covered under warranty (Subaru aftermarket parts that are installed by a dealer mechanic) :p

And that STi Type RA set Dave talked about was cost-effective at ~$1000. I assume that set would last just as long. And as far as I'm concerned the more Subaru parts in my Subaru, the better.

~Garrett

would the sti six speed tranny fit in the previous impreza? where can you get the "...STi Type RA set Dave talked about ..."?

-wop

Originally posted by DeliciouSpeed
They will hold up.

Ken

I wouldn't count on these gears holding up in a high horsepower application. The teeth do not have a stout design.

JMHO

Paul

Originally posted by RallyNavvie
But for $3000 you can buy an STi 6-speed

~Garrett

Where can a STi 6-speed be purchased for $3,000 ?

Paul

OK for those of you asking where these items are to be had you must not have been following this post.

Dave, the US supplier for DMS, is looking into a group buy for STi Type RA transmissions for both 2002 and pre-2002 applications. He mentioned only a few differences that would have to be addressed in order for these to be sent as a "kit" to swap out with the stock transmission. He said he would post a group buy thread on this in the vendor classifieds forum if he was able to work things out.

As far as purchasing an STi 6-speed I'm not quite sure of a reseller for these. I know I haven't come across any in my time searching for performance parts. I think this gearbox is similar to the WRX STi version 6-speeds, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find. Perhaps SuperDave can find you a supplier for that part as well? You'd have to ask him, but I bet he knows more about this than I do. Paul Eklund may also have some information regarding transmissions as he goes through so many :D

~Garrett

I'm sure if the RA gearset - kit works out it will sell very well, I know I would get one down the line, great stuff guys :cool:

I don't want to thwart Jan Shim's efforts to sell his KAAZ gearset, but I would have to agree with gearguy. I'm sure that will work out for somebody, though. Apparently it's for the earlier style tranny with the single piece synchros. (Also, it's not a dogbox, it's a straight cut synchro gearset. The gears may be stronger but synchro strength will still be an issue. It's cheaper than a dogshift gearset, though. It would be interesting to see how it works. Like he says, probably good for racing.

I don't think you're going to find an STi 6-speed anywhere for $3000. ( If you do, let me know!) Plus, remember, you will need a different clutch, propshaft, axles, and crossmember to use it.

I'm still working on the RA kit. It's looking like it will be a drop in for the MY99 and newer gearbox. For the older gearbox (you can identify it, it has a steel plate with 4 bolts on top of the center diff housing) you would have to update to the three piece synchros.

I'm still working on getting a price. I think I will spec it out to include the synchros in any case as they are not that expensive and it's better to have everything fresh.

Again, here are the ratios compared to the 2.5RS box (the WRX ratios are pretty close to that.)

STi RA:

1st: 3.083
2nd: 2.062
3rd: 1.545
4th: 1.151
5th: 0.825
Rev: 3.416

2.5RS:

1st: 3.545
2nd: 2.111 Ouch! Look at those 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd jumps!
3rd: 1.448
4th: 1.088
5th: 0.780
Rev: 3.416

And no, you will not have trouble getting off the line. We have this gearset in Pat Richard's Open class rally car and it has a 10lb flywheel and a 4-puck solid center clutch and it's no problem.

3.083 is not that tall of a 1st gear. I have a 2.23 1st gear in my Opel Ascona rally car, now that's fun! You have to peel out evey time to keep from stalling!:rolleyes:

No worries there ;) I did say the Kaaz gears were for '96 to '99 gearbox and yes, the early synchros design is an inherent weakness theoretically speaking when compared to newer designs. '99- '00 WRX/STi have double synchros and the Kaaz gear sets are all about bolting-on to existing design from the factory. Any parts that require change are all factory parts depending on amount of wear.

While I am no expert on gear issues, I have however worked with tuners, local Subaru dealer and owners of heavily worked WRX and STi running JUN kits @ a minimum of 21 psi to recently 28 psi boost, the same 500ps rated Kaaz gear sets have only suffered fractures, never once synchro related problems. Having said this, I think those of you who are considering changing your current WRX gears should do more research than simply thinking that the RA gears (strenghtened or otherwise) can cope with what you are fitting them for ... DRAGS. Having seen enough gear related problems in the local drag scene, I can confidently tell you, no Subaru gears (stock or aftermarket) can withstand hard launches especially those with 1/4 mile in mind.

The Kaaz gears as stated in the manual are for RACING only and that's circuit racing or track work, not drags! Same goes for other Subaru gears and dont think for one minute that dog gears dont break because they do ... plus they are too damn difficult to drive around town making them bad candidates for the daily driver.

Now, for those who dont drag, the factory gears will last you a long time as mine has... 85,000 kms to be precise and the only things i blew was a centre diff LSD bearing when my clutch slipped and over-revved to 9000 rpm, overloading the front and rear split causing trememdous shock the bearing. I push my '98 Japan spec WRX wagon hard and bounce off the now 7,000 rpm limiter many times a day (although i try not to but ...) i also make it a point to change gear oil every 20,000 kms (a lot more frequent than the recommended intervals) ... i have used Mobil 1 SHC 75w-90 GL5 synthetic all its life.

Can someone give me the theoretical MPH limits with those ratios, or am I gonna have to put those into my cars in GT3 to see what happens :D

I'd just like to have a bit stronger gears, as it's possible that I may misshift, or even happen to compression brake while too much torque is going, or something, and even only slightly stronger, it'll be nice...Plus, having a bit better ratio relation (he he!) seems to make sense, no?

Edit: Used http://pw1.netcom.com/~sgalaba/mph.htm with stock 16" tires on an RS using 4.11 final drive to figure it all out. It seems that your max speed in 1st is ~2 mph slower, your max speed 2-4th is ~2 MPH higher, and your max speed in 5th is ~2 mph slower...If I remember correctly..I didn't write the info down, I just tried to remember it offhand :D...Anyway..uh..dunno what all this means...From what I understand, these are 'shorter', which means that our powerband has become larger, and it will be easier to shift and fall within the powerband...right?

Edit: Oh yes, all this is at 6000 RPMs.

Originally posted by Jan Shim
Kaaz gear sets have only suffered fractures, never once synchro related problems.

The Kaaz gears as stated in the manual are for RACING only and that's circuit racing or track work, not drags! Same goes for other Subaru gears and dont think for one minute that dog gears dont break because they do ... plus they are too damn difficult to drive around town making them bad candidates for the daily driver.

... i have used Mobil 1 SHC 75w-90 GL5 synthetic all its life.

Hi Jan

Kaaz can call them whatever they want, but are gears that fracture and cannot be used for drag racing true racing gears?

Most straight-cut gears presently available for Subaru are only marginally stronger than stock, and will break almost as readily. However, don't think for a minute that all straight-cut gears are created equally.

In 2-3 months, there will be straight-cut gears strong enough for any racing application, and which are "street friendly" as well. Sorry, I can't explain the specifics of "why" at present. But if you're in the market for high quality, I would urge you to be patient.

The Mobil 1 that you use is an excellent choice. It is also the oil used by virtually every single Porsche race team in the ALMS series.

gearguy

Originally posted by gearguy



Most straight-cut gears presently available for Subaru are only marginally stronger than stock, and will break almost as readily.



Hey gearguy, put down the chemicals, man!:)

I'm sorry, but I have to totally disagree with you there. There's no way you can convince me that these Holinger straight cut gears I have here that are almost twice as wide as stock, with bigger teeth are only marginally stronger than stock and will break almost as readily! You better check that prescription!:rolleyes: ;) We'll know soon enough once this gearbox gets put together. If Pat Richard can't break it, then nobody can!;) :lol:
Even MRT's "unbreakable" :rolleyes: gearset has been doing pretty well. There's quite a few teams rallying with them in Australia and New Zealand and apparently nobody has broken any gears yet. However, they are having quite a few gear selection problems, they either jam in gear or select two gears at once.
The Holinger gearset has a clever device that prevents this.

It seems that your max speed in 1st is ~2 mph slower, your max speed 2-4th is ~2 MPH higher, and your max speed in 5th is ~2 mph slower...

Ok... i don't know if you entered things in, incorrectly, but 1st gear in the RA will get you to a higher speed than the RS gears... same for 2nd... 3-5 will be slower, but only marginally, I would think...

The half-dogs are not that difficult to get used to. I've driven a 2.5 RS with the Chalak half-dog and once I got used to the feel and clunk, I didn't have any problem at all. There are a few tricks to optimal shifting, but your installer can educate you on that. There is some noise, whining, from the gears, but I don't mind the sound; it just sounds like a race car to me. About the full-dogs: I've driven Byron's, too, and it's about twice as challenging to get used to! My point is, if I can drive dogs, then most of you probably can, too. It just takes a little time and practice to feel comfortable! We have discussed the possibility of the hardened gears, but Sam Chalak has told us straight out that they will break, which is why he doesn't make them. That's why we don't bother with them. In our experience, no tranny is truly "unbreakable", but we have had the best results with the dogs, so far. Hope this helps. Vickey, www.B-SpecUSA.com

found this:
http://www.ikeya-f.co.jp/english/index3.html

They don't list the WRX yet, but we can hope they might come out with one?

edit: looks like its just a SHIFTER, not a tranny, oh well. :(

Hrm, well I probably entered in some stuff incorrectly :D

Some of us just don't want to deal with dog gears. My car is currently primarily daily driving. You all can say how wonderful and easy dog gears are all you want, but every single review that I've ever read, albeit two, said they were a bitch to drive. The whining surely isn't that bad (except in one of the above views which said the dogbox wasn't too hard to drive said the noise was simply amazing in it's volume)...I just don't want to suddenly not enjoy driving. I'm sure dogboxes are stronger. But as of yet I've never driven a dogbox, and am unwilling to throw down a few thousand dollars for something I've never driven, been in, and aren't sure I can deal with/enjoy. This STI RA gearbox I know I can drive, and it is most likely stronger than stock, even if only marginally.
I'm sure gearguy's gears are wonderful, but he refuses to tell us anything about them except that they seem to be the 'ubergear'.

Ok, enough of me...

Originally posted by DMS-USA



Hey gearguy, put down the chemicals, man!:)

I'm sorry, but I have to totally disagree with you there. There's no way you can convince me that these Holinger straight cut gears I have here that are almost twice as wide as stock, with bigger teeth are only marginally stronger than stock and will break almost as readily! You better check that prescription!:rolleyes: ;)


DMS

Chill out, dude. In rereading what I said, I'm baffled as to why you would seem to be taking personal offense. I certainly didn't specifically say that Holinger gears were no good. As a matter of fact, I've personally dealt over a million in Holinger-manufactured gears over the years, and I have a high regard for both the company and the man. The main thrust of my post is that "the best" is not yet available. (And no, they're not my gears --- I'm only involved in an advisory capacity.)

over & out

About dog gears...

Is there any racing school or other place you can go to test drive cars with dog gears? Is it true that with dog gears you are required to double clutch on every shift? It seems like that would be slower than just slipping the clutch into the next gear with synchros, but I'm not sure. Would dog gears be a lot harder to AutoX with?

Thanks for any info,
--Jason

Originally posted by mhj


Sure, if you really don't mind losing your AWD. If you want a RWD WRX, you open the door to a ton of domestic gearbox options.

What about readily available AWD trannys, like the:

3000GTVR4(315 @ 2500) Might be resonable
S4(258@1850) Kinda expensive
S8(302 @ 3000) same tranny as S4? really expensive if not
I'm sure the prosches would not be possible

Then, what about the Evolution, what does that guy with the 600hp lancer in SCC use? How about the Skylines?

Originally posted by MazemaN

How about the Skylines?

[dream world]I was too was thinking about a skyline tranny, don't they use the getrag transmissions and arn't they supposed to be amazing?[/dream world]

the RA set-up seems to be the best idea this far.

-wop

Ah yes, the 600hp BozzSpeed Lancer in SCC. Did you read the article? They fried the transmission after too many dumps. Gotta give it credit though, it was a pretty strong box. I think that was just the stock gearbox though. I'll have to dust that one off and read it again.

And as far as the Skyline tranny? Oh dear, that thing is about as large as the engine in the Subaru. I drove one a friend of mine had on a track in the UK a year ago. That's a GETRAG transmission, and I think that's Nissan's brainchild. First off, and I must make a point of this by repeating it, that thing is HUGE ! I don't think we'd be able to fit one under a Scooby without a little more expensive modifications. I have to say they are very tough. That friend of mine told me to dump the clutch at 6000rpm saying "Don't worry, it'll be fine", so I did. I remember a chirp and then we were halfway down the front straight with the other guy saying "You can shift into 2nd anytime now". Now that was amazing. I wish we could have one of those in our cars. So much durability. But then there aren't many R-34s with lots of miles on them yet. Or maybe there are... After all, that is my 2nd favorite car next to the RS4. Did I mention the Skyline tranny is large?

Anyone know if the GETRAG is Nissan's or is it built by someone else? Might be an option to pursue in the future if it's a third party developer.

~Garrett

It would stand to reason that the only transmissions that we could use would be from cars with the same engine layout. VR-4 or EVO transmissions wouldn't work because they're designed for a transverse engine layout (stupid Mitsu...). I'm not sure about Audi transmissions, I know the 1.8T is transverse, but I thought I had heard that the 2.8 is longitudinal. If it were, that could be a transmission source from a ~$35k car. I'm thinking that S4 or S8 (do they come in stick?) would be price-prohibitive. The Skyline transmission... that sounds pretty neat, but again would probably be to much $$.

Everything that I've read points to the Subaru transmission being simply too small to handle the forces. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but transmission design doesn't seem like rocket science; why hasn't someone simply come up with a LARGER aftermarket transmission that can take some beefier gears?

Originally posted by RallyNavvie
And as far as the Skyline tranny? Oh dear, that thing is about as large as the engine in the Subaru... ...That's a GETRAG transmission, and I think that's Nissan's brainchild. First off, and I must make a point of this by repeating it, that thing is HUGE ! I don't think we'd be able to fit one under a Scooby without a little more expensive modifications. I have to say they are very tough. That friend of mine told me to dump the clutch at 6000rpm saying "Don't worry, it'll be fine", so I did. I remember a chirp and then we were halfway down the front straight with the other guy saying "You can shift into 2nd anytime now". Now that was amazing. I wish we could have one of those in our cars. So much durability. But then there aren't many R-34s with lots of miles on them yet. Or maybe there are... Did I mention the Skyline tranny is large?

Anyone know if the GETRAG is Nissan's or is it built by someone else? Might be an option to pursue in the future if it's a third party developer.

~Garrett

IIRC... the getrag is also used in the supra and is made by a german frim.

-wop

Originally posted by wop


IIRC... the getrag is also used in the supra and is made by a german frim.



Need more information, as in contact info. It's time to start pinging

:D

Originally posted by RallyNavvie


Need more information, as in contact info. It's time to start pinging

:D

thats all I know. sorry :( .

-wop

quick note: the 5 and 6 speed transmissions for VR-4's and Stealth TT's were also built by Getrag.

Originally posted by Lurker
quick note: the 5 and 6 speed transmissions for VR-4's and Stealth TT's were also built by Getrag.

that's it! I knew there were others, but couldn't think of them... I think there are even more.

-wop

20 seconds of research reveals that Getrag make a whole sh$%load of transmissions for a variety of cars. Those 20 seconds didn't yeild their homepage, though, if they have one.

Before you spend money on an audi gearbox or other gearbox from a production car, make sure that they are indeed much stronger than what we have.

Why is it that the transverse boxes seem to be stronger than the longitudinal boxes? Or is that just my imagination?

Somebody breakdown and machine a titanium brace to see if it really is case flex that's killing us.

Why would the brace have to titanium, a nice billet aluminium jobbie should do the trick.

Originally posted by RageHardIntoTheBendies
Why would the brace have to titanium, a nice billet aluminium jobbie should do the trick.

true wouldn't ti flex more than al?

-wop

gearguy: No worries, I am not taking any personal offense. :) I don't know what made you think that.:confused:

But I still have to disagree with your statement that most straight-cut gears available are only marginally stronger than stock. You can't really believe that, can you? And I never said or implied that you said that Holinger gears are no good, so where did that come from? I'm not trying to start something here, I was just disagreeing with you!:)

By all means, if you've got the double-throw-down trick-of-the-week super-duper built out of unobtanium unbreakable silent gearset, then I'm all for it. Please let us know when it's ready! I can find you a lot of buyers!

I was assuming Ti could be made stiffer than Al. Is that not the case? I haven't looked it up. If it can be done with billet Al, that's much better (cheaper).

So who's gonna try it? :)

dms or gearguy any updates

See www.imprezars.com/images/sti_gear_ratios.xls

It shows the speeds vs rpm with STI RA gears set with 205/55x16 tires. They seem very reasonable for a turbo to pull 1st and 2nd gear, with a slightly lower top speed at 6250rpm.

Except I am running 215/40x17 tires which means top speed would drop to 131mph for me at 6250rpm fuel cut/redline, unless I went TECII with a 6750rpm redline to adjust for it...

For 24.88" tall 205/55x16 tires

RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1000 5.84 8.74 11.66 15.65 21.83
1250 7.30 10.92 14.57 19.56 27.29
1500 8.76 13.10 17.49 23.47 32.75
1750 10.22 15.29 20.40 27.39 38.21
2000 11.68 17.47 23.32 31.30 43.67
2250 13.15 19.65 26.23 35.21 49.12
2500 14.61 21.84 29.15 39.12 54.58
2750 16.07 24.02 32.06 43.03 60.04
3000 17.53 26.21 34.97 46.95 65.50
3250 18.99 28.39 37.89 50.86 70.96
3500 20.45 30.57 40.80 54.77 76.41
3750 21.91 32.76 43.72 58.68 81.87
4000 23.37 34.94 46.63 62.60 87.33
4250 24.83 37.12 49.55 66.51 92.79
4500 26.29 39.31 52.46 70.42 98.25
4750 27.75 41.49 55.38 74.33 103.71
5000 29.21 43.68 58.29 78.25 109.16
5250 30.67 45.86 61.21 82.16 114.62
5500 32.13 48.04 64.12 86.07 120.08
5750 33.59 50.23 67.04 89.98 125.54
6000 35.05 52.41 69.95 93.89 131.00
6250 36.51 54.60 72.86 97.81 136.46
6500 37.98 56.78 75.78 101.72 141.91
6750 39.44 58.96 78.69 105.63 147.37
7000 40.90 61.15 81.61 109.54 152.83

For 23.9" tall 215/40x17 tires (on my car)

RPM 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1000 5.61 8.39 11.20 15.03 20.97
1250 7.02 10.49 14.00 18.79 26.22
1500 8.42 12.59 16.80 22.55 31.46
1750 9.82 14.68 19.60 26.31 36.70
2000 11.22 16.78 22.40 30.07 41.95
2250 12.63 18.88 25.20 33.82 47.19
2500 14.03 20.98 28.00 37.58 52.43
2750 15.43 23.08 30.80 41.34 57.68
3000 16.84 25.17 33.60 45.10 62.92
3250 18.24 27.27 36.40 48.86 68.16
3500 19.64 29.37 39.20 52.61 73.40
3750 21.05 31.47 42.00 56.37 78.65
4000 22.45 33.56 44.80 60.13 83.89
4250 23.85 35.66 47.60 63.89 89.13
4500 25.26 37.76 50.40 67.65 94.38
4750 26.66 39.86 53.20 71.41 99.62
5000 28.06 41.96 56.00 75.16 104.86
5250 29.46 44.05 58.80 78.92 110.11
5500 30.87 46.15 61.59 82.68 115.35
5750 32.27 48.25 64.39 86.44 120.59
6000 33.67 50.35 67.19 90.20 125.84
6250 35.08 52.44 69.99 93.95 131.08
6500 36.48 54.54 72.79 97.71 136.32
6750 37.88 56.64 75.59 101.47 141.57
7000 39.29 58.74 78.39 105.23 146.81

Larry
www.ImprezaRS.com

::Mr. Burns:: Excellent...

http://www.getrag.de/e_index.htm

I use MetaCrawler for everything :D

I just want to say good job putting the clown down DMS. You have my respect. And I could see where Gearguy got mad.
You said unobtainium. I'll be laughing about that for a while.

Ken

have a shop or company just make us titanium gears, both syncros and straight cuts.

this would cost a bunch but hey......it's worth the money for maybe a lift-time gearset............

i think i should consider having a custom titanium gearset then ey?

Here's the custom ratio i use for my WRX-R in GT2

1st 5.545
2nd 3.774
3rd 2.575
4th 1.887
5th 1.385
Final 2.500

if i set the suspension setup and diffs to drag racing spec., i can get 10.380 in the 1/4 run.............or course, i have to stay on 4th gear and tap the trottle@131mph to get the time. if i don't tap, and i shift to 5th, i get 10.4 flat or something like that.


FuJi K

Gearguy,

Thanks for your educated opinion. What about machining gears made from Boralyn or Tialyn? I'm not certain which grade of Boralyn would be most appropriate.
take care,
rob

bump

and keep the flaming to a minimum, I just want to see this plan come to fruition and end my search for a cost effective transmission option.

~Garrett

Maybe I am missing somehting but the Titanium alloys I know of are a very poor choice for transmission gears. They all smear like aluminum does when a load is placed on the surface. Seems to me that would be a bad thing in a gear box as over time the surface of the teeth would get chewed and the teeth might start to bend and otherwise deform under load.

Oh and there is steels that make Ti look weak. Then again doing anything with said steels is a real expensive and difficult process.

I believe the ti reference was to a choice compound for development of a case brace, not gearset.



SLR-

First off, a "case brace" won't make the gear teeth any bigger or any stronger!

Anyway, I've got back some preliminary info on the STi RA gearset. They gave me part numbers for everything . Don't post to ask me for part numbers! There are way too many and it's not as simple as that, anyway. The list they gave me includes nearly every part in the tranny, except the diff and ring and pinion and diff bearings. I'm talking every last gear, synchro, bearing, washer, shim, etc. If you bought this whole list you wouldn't need to reuse anything but the ring and pinion and diff. For all that it would cost about $2000. You could just take out your old gear clusters and set them aside. Now, you don't need all those parts. Most of them you could reuse from your old gearset. What I need to do is weed out all the parts that you can reuse from your old gearset, and determine what specific forks and shift rods would need to be changed. I'm thinking you won't have to change much if you have a later model transmission. If we whittle it down to gears and required shift rods/forks only then I think we're looking at an $800- $1000 price range. With all new synchros and hubs probably in the $1200-$1300 range. These figures are very preliminary and ballpark and I have to determine which forks, rods, etc. are absolutely required. If you have an older gearbox (MY98 and older) you will need more parts, definitely the newer synchros and hubs, maybe forks, maybe reverse idler. Unless you have a high mileage transmission you should be able to reuse your old bearings no problem. It's best, if you are going this far though, to replace them all.

I have some more work to do. I will probably need to put together a tranny to find out for sure what parts are required and what aren't. Anybody near Seattle want to be a guinea pig? I need a late model tranny, all I have are old ones laying about.

How about someone from Jersey to be your guinea pig? :D

I have a line on a tranny from an RS that wrecked with 850 miles on it for $700 last time I checked. I can't swing that kind of money and a gearset too right now though. (Didn't read the whole post)...are we talking RS, WRX, or both?

Here's some idea of the parts that need to be replaced when fitting the Kaaz gears. Should also give you an idea for those contemplating upgrades running pre-2001 tranny. For some reason the gearsets are a near drop in on '98 'box but come '99 a list of "must change" components.

That's because the KAAZ gearset is for the Ver.4 and earlier.
The STi gearset I'm talking about is for Ver.5&6. It will fit in any case with the right parts.

Yup. same story with the RA gears as well depending on which 'box you put them in. I'll stop now. My point is there are absolutely no OEM gears that will withstand the torque from a hard launch. We have run 22B gears in a Ver 5 gearbox after the owner broke his original first gear, the 22B's 1st gear suffered the same fracture as the Kaaz did :mad:

A dog box sounds like a good idea for the WRX (ISR subarucare) but does it have a synchronized first gear that is usable.

Other option $6000 for a ZERO-SPORTS 6-speed from Japan.

Does anyone know of a higher final drive also, I found
a 4.444 in a stock Japan spec 2.2L 22B STI
1st 3.083
2nd 2.062
3rd 1.545
4th 1.151
5th .825
rev 3.416
final 4.444

Thanks Bill (street and SCCA) 295hp

You mean higher top end, or higher number? 4.44 is already INSANE, with only the most nuts Mustang owners running 4.30's in thier street cars. The other option is to go to a 4.11 which is simply a different ring gear. The 3.70 and 3.90 will require a different front output shaft from what I can tell. Maybe someone who has peeled one apart can tell you more about changing the pinion gear for the front diff.

ALL changes will require changing both the front and rear diff.

Originally posted by Greenracer6
Other option $6000 for a ZERO-SPORTS 6-speed from Japan.

any more info on this zero-sports six speed?

-wop

http://www.zerosports.co.jp/shop/impreza3.asp?•ª—Þ=DRIVING

The 6 speed gearset is all the way at the bottom. However, if I'm not mistaken, it was discovered long ago that you lose reverse with this setup.

Originally posted by Cacophony
http://www.zerosports.co.jp/shop/impreza3.asp?•ª—Þ=DRIVING

The 6 speed gearset is all the way at the bottom. However, if I'm not mistaken, it was discovered long ago that you lose reverse with this setup.

thanks but I need reverse.

-wop

DMS...thanks for doing this research.
would it be possible to get the parts from a V4 (or maybe V3) RA Tranny that should fit a 98 better? That way the 98 owners would be able to retain more existing parts, so we can save money for Phase II blocks. :D

Version 2 - 1996
Version 3 - 1997
Version 4 - 1998
Version 5 - 1999
Version 6 - 2000

The Ver 4 RA gears will be a perfect fit to your '98 'box with minimal or no changes, assuming of course a '98 RS has full compatibility with a '98 WRX casing and parts. We have swapped gear sets from various different models between v2 and v5 so often that I've lost track what combination works and what doesnt.

DMS - The case brace will not make the gear teeth any bigger or stronger, but maybe they don't need to be. The theory is that the case flex causes the gears to be slightly further apart causing high amounts of stress over smaller areas on each tooth. If the teeth remain fully engaged, maybe they won't need to be wider or stronger.

Gears need not be made of "unobtainium" to handle 350HP imprezas( let alone stock, 165HP Imprezas). There are cars out there that push 600HP that use normal steel gears reliably, routinely performing high RPM clutch drops. It's definitely more of a design than material issue.

Besides, it'd be a really cheap thing to try out if you have machining facilities.

The reason I mentioned Boralyn is that it is an aluminum-impregnated boron alloy. It's relatively hard to find information on the web about it, but I do know that certain grades have applications in high-explosive containment and military armor. These are ideas, not solutions =)

steel can handle the power. Top fuel drag car use steel in their drive line. that is 7000 hp. I don't think it is what you use it is how well you use it. I think if the case flex could be fixed then a set of hardned gears would be all that would be need for a 300 hp street car. I think that this problem is being over tought.

hold on... back to the top...

WEE WEE!!!

-wop ;)

I still don't know why everyone is so hung up on "case flex". While I will aknowledge it may be a contributing factor I believe it's importance is overstated. All of the failures I've seen involve the full width of the gear teeth, not partial breaks. Do you realize how much the case would have to move for the gears to achieve any significant misalignment? The bolts that hold the case together would have to be bent afterwards, I think! Does anyone even know where the case is supposedly flexing? And in what direction? How would you make a brace that would even do any good? I'm not saying case flex doesn't happen, I'm just saying I think it's less of a problem then most people seem to believe. It's not the only, or even biggest problem. The people that don't seem to think size is an issue are apparently forgetting that this gearbox was designed about 30 years ago for an engine that put out something like 70hp or less. It was a 4-speed then but the gears are the same size as in the 5-speed that comes in 280hp WRXs!

The Version 4 RA gears are the same ratios but they are not the strengthened gears that came in the Version 5 & 6. The V.6 gears will fit into the older case (1999 is the changeover year) but they require the use of the newer 3 piece synchros. The reverse idler gear may need to be changed as well. The parts needed to update the older trannys to accept the V6 gearset are not the expensive parts. Presumable you would want to install fresh synchros and sliders anyway and that's the biggest difference.

I just received all the internal tranny parts for a Version 6 so I can now confirm exactly what's needed and what's not. Most stuff you can reuse, whatever year it is. The important research will be figuring out which shift rods, etc. are required or not for each case. Then I can figure out a more accurate price. I reckon the kit will include new HD gears, mainshaft, synchros and sliders (unless you've got a new tranny and they are in very good condition), and the necessary forks and shift rods (yet to be detremined).

Stay tuned, I'm working on it.

Cool, keep us updated. :)

Bill

Keep in mind that your transaxles have the front differential incorporated into the transaxle itself when you are contemplating possible swaps from other cars.

What does this mean? It means that the only other company out there with tranaxles that could POSSIBLY fit your cars and retain AWD is the Audis.

Now, as far as Audi transaxles go, I am aware of several people who consitently run over 400hp and have had no transaxle problems to date. Also, there was a 6 speed version available overseas that you could purchase, or have a conversion done with high quality MTM gears. A converted 6 'box can be had from 2Bennett for $5,000, and a good condition 5 speed transmission can be found for around $3000. Both should easily hold up to anyone looking for 350+. I am even aware of one guy who ran 450hp and a good deal of torque through his Audi 80's transmission without incident.....until he bent the rods in his engine.

Don't even think about the current S4's 'box. It is stronger than the stink of a dead man's ass, but you'll be hard pressed to find one for less than $10k.

If you have no trouble sacrificing AWD, then pretty much any RWD trans is open to you. Personally, I would recommend a Richmond 6 speed, or Tremec TKO. Both will stand up to over 700hp.

I could be wrong about this, but I think the Audi has a transverse engine, and transmission... the Subaru has a longitudinal setup, so I doubt you could do a swap... but, again, it's been forever since I looked at the quattro setup...

Originally posted by mrbell
I could be wrong about this, but I think the Audi has a transverse engine, and transmission... the Subaru has a longitudinal setup, so I doubt you could do a swap... but, again, it's been forever since I looked at the quattro setup...

only the FWD and TT are transverse.

Everything else that is quattro (AWD) is mounted logitudally, with the transaxle containing the front drivetrain, just like the Subarus.

ahh... well... I'm still thinking there's something weird about the quattro setup... maybe I'm just making stuff up tho...

only the FWD and TT are transverse.
Everything else that is quattro (AWD) is mounted logitudally, with the transaxle containing the front drivetrain, just like the Subarus.

I think that this needs to be clarified. Within a platform (such as the A4), no manufacturer is going to change the engine orientation with the same engine. I'm guessing that you meant "only the A4 and the TT are transverse." I don't know about older audi's, but I'd assume that the Quattro's with the inline-5s were longitudinal.

I'll ask again: {dumbass question} Why can't someone simply make a larger transmission for us? {/dumbass question} Is it really that hard to design something that could reuse most of our stock parts but allow more space for bigger gears?

-ivan

I'll refer you back to my post that started this whole thread. No one makes gearboxes for these things, even on such an international level as the WRC cars. Those guys swap out trannies almost every service.

Excuse my wholly-paranoid explanation here but with the massive popularity of the car everywhere overseas that all the other manufacturers are buying out the firms that are thinking of making a strong Subaru tranny so that they don't develop one. Could you imagine what Subaru could do to the WRC if it had a transmission as reliable as Mitsu or Peugot?

Just my crazy idea on why they haven't made a better transmission yet. :rolleyes:

~Garrett

Pardon me, but the Prodrive 6-speed dogbox as used in the WRC and Group A cars for years is pretty reliable. No worse than any other manufacturer's full competition gearbox, I reckon. This is not the same gearbox as the new STi synchro 6-speed. The Prodrive 6-speed dogbox has been around since the Legacy Group A days and now in the WRC cars sports active diffs and sequential shifting. It's very beefy.

Even if you could afford one (an older used one would cost as much or more than your whole car, a new active, sequential one would cost as much as a cheap house) you wouldn't want to run it on the street. Very noisy!

A larger transmission would require a larger transmission tunnel and would only be forcing more weight into the car, as well as the need to rework whatever systems are in the way of said transmission.

It is far easier to either have a new case milled and reinforced to the needs of the transmission (while moving to stronger gears of course) while keeping the same dimensions, or simply move to beefier gears while marginally trimming the interior of the case while simultaneously reinforcing the case against flex that is prone in transmission cases that are enduring high output engines.

Moving to dog or half-dog gears would be far easier (and probably cost effective) than doing the tests to see the stress points of the stock transmission case and having a new "stock" transmission case made out of a far stronger material while maintaining the same interior dimensions, weight, etc.

-Phil

gearguy wrote:In 2-3 months, there will be straight-cut gears strong enough for any racing application, and which are "street friendly" as well. Sorry, I can't explain the specifics of "why" at present. But if you're in the market for high quality, I would urge you to be patient.Folks, this was written by someone who's company supplies a significant number of racing gearsets to the Porsche community. I hope and pray that this means that someone somewhere is hard at work adapting the Porsche G50 transmission for use in the WRX.

What is the G50 tranny?

Sorry about that. The G50 is the designation for the transmissions found in Porsche 911s. Here's an article with a little more info (and it even mentions gearguy's company):
http://www.rennsportsystems.com/~porsche/2d.html

MRT has "Unbreakable Gear Sets." Thought it might be useful.

http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/gearsets.htm

Mike

bump.

any word dave?

-wop

:D

WHOA!

never saw this awsome thread before, just read the whole thing! i dunno if i can help but i recently had an STI verV tranny(along with the rest of the drivetrane) installed into my OBS by rallispec. i believe its the type RA since that's the only one with the close ratio gears. lemme tell you the close ratio rules. its quite wonderful: as you hit the rev limiter(set to 7200 by the Link ECU) you shift, and hit it soon again, shift , etc.... feels incedible, full boost constantly. the clutch feels alittle harder to push down at first but after about an hour you never notice it again, ever. cruising at 70 mph the revs are about 3500 which isnt too obtrusive in the cabin. that pretty much means it tops out at just before 150 mph(havent tried that yet ;) ) hmmm...trying to think what else i can tell you guys about it... well unfortunetly i suck compared to the rest of you gear-heads in transmission (or car for that matter) knowledge but ask what you want about the tranny and i'll try to answer it, BTW, i've had the car for only a month now so my exp with the new drivetrane isnt too full...yet. also i dont know if my exp with my tranny will help the RS guys since i don't believe you guys rev as high as the WRX's but like i said ask and i will try to answer.

Also, not to bombard them as they are always too busy feilding questions, maybe rallispec can help if they're reading this thread. they're the ones who installed it, and they're big gear-heads, maybe they can tel us how the tranny looked compared to the RS or WRX.

trying to be helpful,
:cool:-Lou:cool:

In Sport Compact Car's "project Impreza" series, there was an article--some months ago--that contained a bit about replacing part of the gearbox. I think it was just a stronger second gear or something, though...

-S2-

Fuji K ,

If those are the 1/4 times you are getting and you have the slips to prove it , wow !!:eek: :lol: :D

no no my fellow japan ej20...

those times were from gran turismo... the video game.

heehee .... those WOULD be some awsome times tho ;)

-Lou

I presently have all the parts to build a Ver.6 tranny (high strength gears and all) but have been too busy getting Pat Richard's rally car ready for Ojibwe. I've been building a Holinger Group N dogbox for his car. It's a straight cut dog shift gearset that fits into the stock case. No machining is required to the case to fit it. The gears are almost twice as wide as the stock gears. There is also a clever shift rod interlock device that makes it impossible to select two gears at once. The MRT "unbreakable" gearsets have been holding up alright apparently but they have been having a lot of gear selection problems such as selecting two gears at once or jamming in gear my sources in Australia say.
We'll have the Holinger gearbox in this weekend and will be using at Ojibwe. I'll let you know how noisy it is.

When I get back I'll put together the STi HD gearset in a '98 RS gearbox. Then I'll know exactly what parts are required and what are not and what the costs will be. That gearbox may be available for sale after as well.

10.386 only comes in with RACING MOD. and Drag TUNED suspension...........other than that, i would be getting low 10.4's

ah ha......yups from Grand Turismo



ok back to that point.......

so is there anyone who is acyually going to find out if the tranny flexes??

i was thinking the gearing subaru makes are for torque. even my moms '93 Legacy wagon AWD has more low end torqe than our '90 V6 Camary............:rolleyes:

anymore thoughts?????

FuJi K

Siper,

The article you are refering to was the MRT/Chalak dog box in Shiv's car which was done some time ago (IIRC, it was the full dog box).

In the mean time, Shiv has also shredded the MRT gearset as well. To my knowledge, the tranny has yet to be taken apart to see exactly what failed.

I have yet to use the MRT gearset. And have not shredded one. The only gears I have used are the Chalak/BPM gears. First the1/2 dog and now the full dog (except 5th gear). I've had problems with both. The most recent being what appears to be the 3rd gear dog teeth falling off (without any heavy use or abuse) within a couple of thousand miles. Appearantly, they have changed the design of the gearset (for the better, I presume). Right now, the most reliable tranny I have had was the stocker which last over 30,000 miles of hard use (but not abuse!). Special thanks to Ed and Pam at ISR for being such a sport and helping us document all the tranny work! Couldn't have done it without 'em!

Shiv

Thanks for setting the record straight Shiv!!

isn't it funny how much misinformation is on this board? it's good that there are some people out there that can say what's really going on... btw, shiv, I'm gonna get an email out to you in a bit, but for the benefit of this thread, do you think the failure was a manufacturing flaw?

Just got back from taking the Holinger dogbox out for it's first spin in Pat Richard's Open class rally car. We were dialing in the Electromotive, too (thanks for the base map, Shiv!) We've got it cranked in to about 18psi boost now and it goes pretty good. There's still more to be had but we want to keep it safe at the moment.

I was pleasantly surprised that the Holinger gearset is relatively quiet for as far as straight cut gears go. There is definitely gear whine but it's not nearly as noisy as the Quaife straight cut gears I've used. And this is in a completely stripped rally car with no sound insulation and very stiff Group A engine and tranny mounts (more rigid than the STi's.) For someone who was wanting to run big horsepower high boost crazy engine in their street car and didn't mind putting up with a little noise you could totally live with this on the street. It's not hard to shift, it seems a little notchier than stock but once you get used to it it easy to snick right into gear. Plus you get a satisfying clunk when you shift! This would only be for hardcore pumped up street cars though, as it is an expensive gearset, over $5500!:eek: But you wouldn't have to worry about damaging it or crunching a synchro!

Pat will be running the Ojibwe Rally in Minnesota with it next weekend so it will get a good workout.

Might be time to start saving all my pennies if I keep running 350hp @ flywheel :eek:

Here's an idea...someone can make a strong synchro gearset by putting in wider gears, and getting rid of 5th.

You'll have a super strong, 4sp synchro tranny. ;)

Originally posted by mhj
Here's an idea...someone can make a strong synchro gearset by putting in wider gears, and getting rid of 5th.

You'll have a super strong, 4sp synchro tranny. ;)

no thank you :( ;) :( .

-wop

Originally posted by mhj
Here's an idea...someone can make a strong synchro gearset by putting in wider gears, and getting rid of 5th.

You'll have a super strong, 4sp synchro tranny. ;)


That won't work, anyway. The Subaru 5 speed tranny started out life as a 4 speed in the first place. Like just about all 5 speeds from that era it's a 4 speed with a 5th gear tacked on to it. 5th gear is actually outside the main case. They added it to the back and made a different tailhousing to fit it. Getting rid of 5th gear won't give you any more room to fit wider 1st - 4th gears. Wider gears will fit, though. The straight cut gears in the Holinger gearset are nearly twice as wide as stock. That's with dog shift, though. You wouldn't really be able to fit any wider gears with synchros.

Blast those sneaky Scooby engineers!!

In this case they were scottish engineers...

If there is only room in the case for four forward gears (w/synchros), and one extra outside the case, put just three gears in the case, and leave one outside! Its as simple as that. 'Course I don't know that I'd personally want to give up 5th gear, and I have no idea how/whether this could be done. Just wanted to point out the possibility.

bu-ump

How're things going in the US Subaru research dept. Dave?

Ok, how about 3 wide gears+reverse in the main case, and a new rear section with 2 wide gears. Shouldn't be too hard to cast a new rear section, right?

Originally posted by mhj
Ok, how about 3 wide gears+reverse in the main case, and a new rear section with 2 wide gears. Shouldn't be too hard to cast a new rear section, right?

what?!?! are you people on crack? honestly... MRT "unbreakable" dog box seems to be the best so far. I am leaning that way right now but... if dave can pull off the WRX close ratio set, I will be all over it, if they break I won't hesitate and go full dog box.

-wop

Well, maybe for you the MRT gearbox is the best, but personally I don't like the noise and people have already mentioned the gear selection problems (two gears selected at once, or shifter stuck in one gear).

63Alpine and one other (maybe Imprezinator...not sure) have both mentioned how their gearboxes got stuck (although I believe that they are running BPM, the problem is common to both).



DMS, Jan Shim- do you guys have pictures of the RA gears compared to the WRX/RS gears? What makes them stronger?

My turbo is now iminent...I'm anxious to see how this all pans out :D

Originally posted by mhj
Well, maybe for you the MRT gearbox is the best, but personally I don't like the noise and people have already mentioned the gear selection problems (two gears selected at once, or shifter stuck in one gear).

63Alpine and one other (maybe Imprezinator...not sure) have both mentioned how their gearboxes got stuck (although I believe that they are running BPM, the problem is common to both).


iSR (http://www.autocaresubaru.com) says they have a fix for the shift fork problem, and I have heard from others that part of the fork problems were caused tdue to installation errors.

I am all for dave's idea.

-wop

Hmm, The Legacy-Turbo Tranny sounds like a good idea,
is it a straight swap out for the RS gearbox ??
how much extra work is required ?
what kind of $$$ for a Legacy-t tranny ?

Good luck finding a legacy turbo tranny!

Doh !

DMS, hope Ojibwe went well; wonderin' if you had put your head to more sorting of the RA box dilemma...


SLR-

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

I`m hoping this gets sorted out before my tranny goes boom!

Bill

Here's an interesting article on the MRT's "unbreakable" gear dogbox gear sets if you haven't already read it:

http://www.autospeed.com/A_0943/P_1/article.html

Mike

Originally posted by SuicidalLabRat
DMS, hope Ojibwe went well; wonderin' if you had put your head to more sorting of the RA box dilemma...


SLR-

Actually, Ojibwe could have been better.:( Pat didn't get to start because the 3rd/4th selector rod broke inside the tranny and it stuck in 4th. This was in the Holinger straight cut dog box. The Holinger stuff was fine it was a stock Subaru part that broke!:mad: Just the very end tang of the selector rod snapped off. I've got the tranny all repaired now and have been driving it. I had another selector rod that came with the HD RA gearset that was obviously heat treated in the area that the other one broke. The one that broke was not heat treated. So Subaru must know something...;) Holinger had never heard of that happening, though, so apparently it's not too common. The Holinger gearset works great, by the way, and shifts easily. It's not terribly noisy as far as straight cut gearsets go either.

Haven't had time to do anything with the STi gearset yet since I'm busy getting Pat's car ready for Wild West rally.
The main thing I'm concerned about is whether the reverse idler gear will be in the correct position in the older cases with this gearset. This gearset may require a later model case ('99+). Everything else won't be a problem.

how about a BUMP :D



Bill

There sure is alot of spam in this post...

the only thing i totally agree with... is

"Inquiring minds want to know.

I`m hoping this gets sorted out before my tranny goes boom!

Bill"

Amen bill... amen :cool: mines crunchy at 22oo miles

I think we need to get an answer to this pretty quick. Consistant 1.7 60 foot times are nice and fun, but i am starting to wonder how long the tranny will hold up to them.

-Nathan

and another *bump*

News?


Bill

So DMS you think it won't work in the 98 case that you were going to put it in? ok they changed the case in 7/95 and again in 7/98 which newer case are you speaking of the 7/98

Ya, my turbo is in and the gears feel so weak :( it's like shifting on eggshells :D

OK, I've finally had time to get back to the HD gearset. Sorry it's taken so long, I've been busy with other thing.

I'm assembling the HD Ver.6 gearset into a MY98 RS case. This is an early 98 tranny with the early style center diff. It corresponds to a Ver.4 tranny. The changeover ocurred between Ver.4 and Ver.5. The main difference in the case was the position of the reverse idler gear shaft. It's 1mm further away from the main shaft in the later box. The newer Ver.6 gearset also uses a larger diameter reverse idler gear.
As it turns out there's no problem. The Ver.6 gearset can be used in the old and new cases just fine. If using an early case you just use the original reverse idler gear and everything fits (the larger diameter V6 reverse idler gear doesn't.)

So the bottom line is this gearset will work in any year RS or WRX tranny. Also a minimum of parts will have to be bought since many parts from your old tranny can be re-used. You will need all the gears, the input shaft, synchro cones unless yours are still in nice shape (they are not that expensive though) and any bearings and seals you want to replace. If the tranny has a lot of miles I would replace the taper roller bearings. The rest of the bearings don't wear much and last a long time.

Good news is 1st gear in this HD gearset is 5mm wider than stock, as well as all the gears having the special heat treatment (though I don't know exactly what is done.) The synchro teeth on the gears (you can call them dogs) are larger and stronger than the standard (MY98, anyway) gears as well.

Give me a couple of days to dig up the prices...:)

-Dave Clark

great news just let us know when we can order them

[lurk mode off]

salivating... counting penny's...

[/lurk mode on]

Excellent news. Waiting for the prices. :)

Please notify :P

Can you show us some side by side comparison pics of RS and RA gears? thanks!

I've got the cash in hand and the broken tranny. :p I'm ready!

are any of the other gears wider, or is it only 1st gear which is 5mm wider than stock ?

Ya, count me in and my checkbook open :D

My question, is why would you want to make 1st gear wider? 2nd is the one that always breaks - I haven't heard a single case of 1st gear breaking. *shrug*

I believe gears 2 and 3 are the ones that are prone to breaking.

-wop

8Complex - no one killing 1st gear? heh, I wish I could say that too, but after watching a WRX shred (like your 2nd) 1st with only 3000 miles on it at the local drag strip, I really don't mind having a beefier 1st. :) Sure, I'd love to have a massive 2nd too, but I figure 1st takes a hell of a pounding on 5000 rpm drops :D
Not that I ever did one :rolleyes:

Dave, lots of us are waiting with checkbooks in hand!;)

hey, just out of interest, how wide are each of the gears on an RS/WRX ?
and how much extra space is taken up by each synchro ?

crazy ideas.....I know they'll get shot down, but....
how about shrinking 4th gear width, and removing the synchro on 1st.
Wouldn't that give quite a bit of extra space to widen 1st 2nd and 3rd ?

*Bump*

Yet another interested party, anything that can be done to improve the tranny would be spectacular :D

amyone thought about cryo treating these gears to make them even stronger?

Nate

well I just got my new gearset in and will probably do something to my stock gears, like heat treat, or cryo, or both
anywhere I can get info on this?

do a search on yahoo or somehting, i found lots of places that do it, just have to look.

Nate

Regarding cryo treating gears, this is a mistake. It is actually mentioned earlier in this enormous thread. Cryotreating makes no discernable difference in the shockloading capacity of the gears, and hence is essentially worthless.

are you CRAZY!!?!?!?! cryo treating DOES work. the worlds fastest sentra is using the stock gear box and it puts 650hp to the wheels. i dont care how strong a tranny nissan makes but without cryo treatment there is no way it could withstand that abuse.

Nate

Any update on this?

Nope, I am absolutely not kidding. Go back and read and learn. I'm sorry, but just because they do it doesn't mean that it's actually doing something useful.

NateDogg - I'm a mechanical engineer and it was my impression that the main benefit of cryo treating was increased wear resistance and hardness. Great for sliding / rubbing parts like brake rotors, cams, bearings, etc. But the increased hardness in particular seems like it would have a neutral or