I've had my Stage 2 STi (3" catted TBE + EcuTek reflash) for a while. Car pulls like crazy with no hiccups. I finally received the Delta Dash software from EcuTek so I can see what's really going on in there.

What I discovered is that under full boost (peaks to 20psi, down do 14 at redline or so), my IDC is typically 96-99% :eek: Today I ran it hard and saw my first > 100% IDC (101.5% I think it was). This corresponded with a 270grams/sec air intake flow (the highest I've seen).

I'll post up DD logs/screenshots later (can't do it at work), but I'm just wondering how safe this is??? The A/F never leans out (solid 11.1:1 under boost) and there is no negative knock correction being applied, but I'm just wondering how long things can hold together with this level of maxing out the injectors?

Thoughts!?!?

No you dont need injectors and a fuel pump with a stage 2 setup ( TBE + EM).

No you dont need injectors and a fuel pump with a stage 2 setup ( TBE + EM).

yep,, :cool:

So, IDCs that regularly hit 96-99% and occassionally go a hair over 100% are perfectly safe??? :confused:

So far the car has performed flawlessly, but I just tend to worry a lot I guess. I think it comes from my mother. ;)

put in a pump if you want.

but you don't need injectors

Also be aware that the Delta Dash can, and wil,l read IDC's of over 100%.

depending on weather conditions you drive in, and supporting mods, its very likely you will need injectors.

when i was at stage 2 (intake, TBE, header, UTEC), i would max out my injectors at anything above 12psi at redline. this was at 11.0:1 AFR

to even take advantage of the turbo (as small as it was), i wouldve needed larger injectors.

when i was at stage 2 (intake, TBE, header, UTEC), i would max out my injectors at anything above 12psi at redline.

Part of the difference between your Stage2 and his is that you have an intake and headers though. I do believe he is right on the edge and might be able to get a little stonger tune with higher flowing injectors.

Do you *need* injectors? No. Could you utilize bigger injectors? Barely. Will you want to get bigger injectors before any other mods. Yes.

offset

Thanks for the replies folks. I feel better :cool:

To summarize: I'm probably safe on my current tune with the stock injectors, but any step up from here is going to require bigger injectors and a pump. Additionally, adding a pump now might add some margin of safety.

Would a pump upgrade alone change conditions enough for me to require a re-tune of the EcuTek flash?

Would a pump upgrade alone change conditions enough for me to require a re-tune of the EcuTek flash?

No. And it sounds like you got your options figured out perfectly.

offset

Thanks offset.

Here are some DD graphs just because they're cool and I'm having fun with this software. :)

1. Mass Air Flow on the x-axis versus Manifold Absolute Pressure and IDC on the y-axis. The highest airflow reading is highlighted (271.65 gram/s). You can see one or two data points here where IDC goes just over 100%.

http://joshdaynard.com/dd/maf.v.map.v.idc.jpg

2. MAP (boooost) on the x-axis versus IDC and AFR on the y-axis. The highest boost data point is highlighted (35.1 psi absolute). Note that AFR is pretty much rock steady at 11.1:1 at the higher boost/IDC levels.

http://joshdaynard.com/dd/map.v.idc.v.afr.jpg

3. Here you can see a graph of a bunch of parameters during a 2nd/3rd/4th (or 3/4/5, I don't remember). You can see IDCs level out near 100% while on boost. Also knock correction is positive here which is good, it's increasing timing since it doesn't detect knock.

http://joshdaynard.com/dd/dd_graph.jpg

Delta Dash is really sweet by the way, did I say that yet? :-)

If you are going to stay Stg2. Why not just a fuel pressure regulator?

TMS

If you are going to stay Stg2. Why not just a fuel pressure regulator?

TMS

I'm definitely going to upgrade the turbo at some point ... it's just a question of when and which turbo. In the meantime, I just wanted to make sure that my current level of tune was safe.

Doesn't an FPR require a bigger pump for safe operation?

I thought the stock front O2 sensor was only accurate to 12:1? How are you getting data down to 11.0:1? Or is it just showing you "below 12:1" and looks like 11:1 on the graph?

-Mike

I thought the stock front O2 sensor was only accurate to 12:1? How are you getting data down to 11.0:1? Or is it just showing you "below 12:1" and looks like 11:1 on the graph?



Good question and beyond the scope of my knowledge. :) I would love it if someone who knows could answer though. I supposed I could post on the Ecutek forums and see what those guys say.

While we're discussing stage 2 STi's, does anyone here have an estimate on dyno results and track times? I'm not planning on doing too much to mine (we'll see how long that lasts...) but I'll probably go to a stage 2 setup sometime soon.

on the other hand if one did have bigger injectors/fuel pump with a TBE. Can tuning take advantage of them for more PSI/timing/ etc for more power. I know the IDC's will be match lower but what about power.

Cheers

Nick

There was a lively discussion last May about whether STi IDCs near or above 100% is prudent.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553419

deltadash will show AFR down to 11.25, maybe a bit lower on the STi ECU. I wouldn't trust those numbers though.

']There was a lively discussion last May about whether STi IDCs near or above 100% is prudent.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=553419

Excellent discussion, thanks for the link! Unfortunately, the actual data and DD logs posted by the EcuTek folks are gone :mad:

Also, the discussion never seemed to reach a satisfactory conclusion ...

The Prodrive guys don't think the DD reported %'s are accurate since they seem to be able to control fuel above 100%. The also state that they have thousands of Prodrive tuned cars running around at or near 100% IDCs with no reported problems.

Jeff Spoonaugle seems to think the DD calculated IDCs are fairly accurate, and anything over 100% is a result of the ECU asking for more fuel than can be delivered, at which point the injectors are static. Jeff also points to experience which shows that fueling control becomes more difficult at IDCs > 95%, probably due to differences in injector open/close lag calculations versus actual injector open time at those high %s. However, he states that he is mostly able to tune around this artifact.

It's at least worth noting that there are no reports of injectors flat out failing due to high IDCs.

The EcuTek guys never seem to weigh in on how accurate the DD logs are, but they do state near the end that the vf39 is the limiting factor in the stock setup. With bigger injectors and pump they still could only reach around 350bhp. However, they then state that the stock injectors are adequate for that fuel level, but the stock pump is not. Ugh. :confused:

And yes I'm barely even an armchair tuner. Actually, I'm nothing, I'm just trying to make sense of the logs and determine if my 'professionally' tuned car is safe ...

I will say that the statements made by the EcuTek folks and others do at the very least make me want to upgrade my pump soon.

deltadash will show AFR down to 11.25, maybe a bit lower on the STi ECU. I wouldn't trust those numbers though.

My DD logs seem to go static around 11.13. I have to search, but I don't think I've seen anything richer than that. However, at least it's not leaning out under boost (which I would see), so that is a good thing I suppose.

Excellent discussion, thanks for the link! Unfortunately, the actual data and DD logs posted by the EcuTek folks are gone :mad: Here's a copy of their .csv file:
Time,Manifold Absolute Pressure (Bar),Engine Speed (RPM),Ignition Timing (°),Mass Air Flow (grams/s),Throttle Opening Angle (%),Fuel Injection #1 Duty (%),Knock Correction (°),Fuel Tank Pressure (psig),Fuel Temperature (°C),Fuel Level (Volts),Fuel Pump Duty (%),VVT Advance Angle Right (°),Air/Fuel Sensor #1 (AFR),Motec Front,
0,1.02,1384,22.5,25.65,100,9.45,5,0,15,0.4,33,8,14 .34,12.95,
220,1.03,1604,24,29.71,100,9.92,3.5,0,15,0.42,33,1 0,12.5,12.7,
430,1.06,1587,20.5,33.29,100,10.83,2,0,15,0.4,33,1 3,13.31,13.29,
670,1.09,1654,21.5,32.92,100,10.94,3,0,15,0.36,33, 15,13.19,13.5,
901,1.12,1726,23,37.97,100,11.78,5,0,15,0.66,33,17 ,13.08,13.73,
1121,1.15,1809,23.5,39.25,100,12.74,6,0,15,0.58,33 ,18,13.19,13.59,
1331,1.18,1863,23,43.35,100,13.51,6,0,15,0.32,33,1 9,13.54,13.54,
1562,1.21,1924,21,48.19,100,14.36,6,0,15,0.6,33,19 ,13.42,13.74,
1792,1.25,2018,22,50.47,100,15.5,7,0,15,0.66,67,19 ,13.31,13.61,
2022,1.29,2083,21,55.52,100,16.89,6.5,0.01,15,0.54 ,67,19,12.85,13.57,
2243,1.33,2175,21.5,56.81,100,17.63,6,0.01,15,0.38 ,67,19,12.96,13.39,
2463,1.38,2274,22,65.09,100,19.89,6,0,15,0.36,67,1 9,12.27,13.44,
2683,1.44,2320,19,71.23,100,21.78,5,0,15,0.38,67,1 9,12.05,13.03,
2914,1.53,2437,18,82.33,100,25.47,6,0,15,0.32,67,1 9,11.59,12.64,
3134,1.64,2555,16,91.88,100,29.44,6,0,15,0.44,67,2 0,11.13,12.46,
3354,1.78,2617,14,108.11,100,34.61,5,0,15,0.62,100 ,19,11.13,12.3,
3585,1.93,2791,14,118.43,100,39.89,5,0,15,0.48,100 ,20,11.13,11.7,
3825,2.07,2883,13.5,136.52,100,46.12,4.5,0,15,0.4, 100,20,11.13,11.39,
4055,2.14,3058,13.5,144.3,100,47.62,4.5,0,15,0.5,1 00,19,11.13,11.18,
4276,2.16,3200,13,156.07,100,51.87,4,-0.01,15,0.5,100,16,11.13,11.26,
4506,2.16,3313,13,160.72,100,54.42,4,-0.01,15,0.42,100,15,11.13,11.25,
4736,2.19,3488,13,176.23,100,61.02,4,-0.01,15,0.4,100,15,11.13,11.47,
4957,2.23,3624,13.5,186.5,100,66.48,4,-0.02,15,0.42,100,14,11.13,11.34,
5187,2.25,3794,15,198.43,100,70.41,5,-0.02,15,0.44,100,14,11.13,11.16,
5407,2.26,3932,16,206.47,100,73.82,5.5,-0.02,15,0.38,100,12,11.13,10.91,
5628,2.28,4029,17,212.16,100,74.78,6,-0.03,15,0.32,100,10,11.13,10.87,
5858,2.27,4231,18,219.08,100,78.52,6,-0.04,15,0.38,100,9,11.13,10.79,
6098,2.28,4393,18,236.09,100,84.34,6.5,-0.04,15,0.38,100,10,11.13,10.85,
6329,2.29,4499,18.5,243.21,100,86.39,6.5,-0.05,15,0.36,100,9,11.13,10.7,
6559,2.28,4640,19.5,247.03,100,88.1,6.5,-0.05,15,0.36,100,9,11.13,10.67,
6789,2.27,4784,20,255.6,100,90.84,7,-0.06,15,0.42,100,9,11.13,10.59,
7020,2.26,4934,20,259.26,100,93.68,7,-0.07,15,0.4,100,9,11.13,10.67,
7250,2.26,5130,20,269.94,100,98.5,7,-0.08,15,0.32,100,7,11.13,10.59,
7470,2.24,5195,20.5,272.36,100,98.63,7.5,-0.08,15,0.32,100,6,11.13,10.36,
7691,2.22,5372,20.5,276.28,100,100.84,7.5,-0.09,15,0.34,100,4,11.13,10.45,
7921,2.2,5443,20.5,278.75,100,99.87,7.5,-0.09,15,0.34,100,2,11.13,10.5,
8151,2.17,5567,21,277.23,100,100.94,7.5,-0.1,15,0.34,100,1,11.13,10.53,
8392,2.15,5708,21,280.21,100,101.07,7.5,-0.1,15,0.42,100,0,11.13,10.5,
8622,2.13,5816,22,276.71,100,100.5,8,-0.11,15,0.42,100,0,11.13,10.55,
8852,2.11,5928,23,278.19,100,101.16,8.5,-0.12,15,0.34,100,0,11.13,10.6,
9063,2.11,6066,24,281.68,100,103.52,9,-0.12,15,0.34,100,0,11.13,10.59,
9283,2.09,6123,25.5,283.17,100,103.19,9,-0.12,15,0.36,100,0,11.13,10.59,
9513,2.08,6277,27,279.64,100,101.77,8.5,-0.13,15,0.32,100,0,11.13,10.59,
9734,2.06,6317,27.5,283.66,100,102.42,8.5,-0.13,15,0.32,100,0,11.13,10.64,
9964,2.05,6470,28.5,283.15,100,103.52,8.5,-0.13,15,0.56,100,0,11.13,10.64,
10204,2.04,6519,30,283.14,100,102.91,8.5,-0.13,15,0.44,100,0,11.13,10.65,
10425,2.03,6600,31.5,280.62,100,102.79,8,-0.13,15,0.42,100,0,11.13,10.61,
10655,2.03,6746,33,281.1,100,102.18,7.5,-0.13,15,0.36,100,0,11.13,10.61,
10865,2.03,6837,33.5,281.1,100,102.09,7.5,-0.13,15,0.34,100,0,11.13,10.66,
11095,2.02,6918,33.5,284.11,100,103.31,7.5,-0.13,15,0.42,100,0,11.13,10.64, Note: vBulletin is tossing in a spurious blank character in the middle of the first 19 lines of data. You'll have to edit those blanks out manually.

Thanks Jon. Looks a lot like my logs ;)

sorry to hi-jack, what is the flow rate of stock sti injectors?

sorry to hi-jack, what is the flow rate of stock sti injectors?

I forget their rating from the factory (maybe 550cc?), but MZM has a nice page where they had a set flow tested and they came out around 540cc.

MZM flow test link (http://mzmperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MOS&Product_Code=sti720cc&Category_Code=subfm)

too add in with the above, with the accessport and tbe, my injector duty cycle spikes to 96% and then quickly drops off... so that's cool

I forget their rating from the factory (maybe 550cc?), but MZM has a nice page where they had a set flow tested and they came out around 540cc.

MZM flow test link (http://mzmperformance.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MOS&Product_Code=sti720cc&Category_Code=subfm)

Im pretty sure the stock injectors are rated at 480cc...if they flow better than that...great...

hmmm, the Perrin page also refers to them as 550cc. I have no clue who is right, I'm just searching around for info :)

Perrin Injectors Page (http://perrinperformance.com/Products/STI/Injectors.htm)

well if they are 550's I bet with a Fuel pressure regulator they can flow close to or above 600cc's which would cover lots of turbo upgrades. But then that will not be the ideal situation but it may have to do. Bad part is the regulator cost like $150 and the Perrin mode like $220.

Regards

Nick