A brief blurb from http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=4&id=326500 Toyota, Fuji Heavy in talks for hybrid vehicle partnership

Wednesday, February 2, 2005 at 12:40 JST

NAGOYA — Toyota Motor Corp and Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd said Wednesday they have started negotiations to form a technology-sharing partnership in hybrid electric-gasoline vehicles.

Fuji Heavy, the maker of Subaru vehicles, is expected to use Toyota's hybrid technology in its Legacy and other models to reduce costs, company officials said. (Kyodo News)

I assume they'd be using Toyota technology for the electronics, pairing that to a Subaru drivetrain? Wonder what Toyota is getting from FHI?

Wonder what Toyota is getting from FHI?
It's likely to be batteries from NEC Lamillion, which is a Subaru - NEC joint venture that's developed a high-density laminated manganese-lithium ion battery.

Found a copy of the original Kyodo News article at http://asia.news.yahoo.com/050202/kyodo/d8803li00.html: Wednesday February 2, 10:28 AM

LEAD: Toyota, Fuji Heavy in talks for hybrid vehicle partnership

(Kyodo) _ (EDS: UPDATING, CHANGING DATELINE)

Toyota Motor Corp. and Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. said Wednesday they have started negotiations to form a technology-sharing partnership in hybrid electric-gasoline vehicles.

Fuji Heavy, the maker of Subaru vehicles, is expected to use Toyota's hybrid technology in its Legacy and other models to reduce costs, company officials said.

Toyota has led other carmakers in the field of hybrid vehicles with its popular Prius passenger car, and is already supplying the technology to Nissan Motor Co. and Ford Motor Co.

The Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported Wednesday Fuji Heavy is considering supplying Toyota with technology for lithium ion batteries for use in hybrid vehicles under the partnership.

All hail the new GODs of the automotive market. Toyota is simply owning the world with its hybrid technology. Everybody save Honda is utilizing their system. Kudos to Toyota for being forward thinking, lets all watch their corporate taillights for the next few years!

SCRAPPYDO

All of these reports are apparently based on an item originally reported by the Nihon Keizai business daily today in Japan. Here's is Reuters' take on it, from http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7508970: Japan's Toyota, Subaru May Tie Up in Hybrid Cars

Wed Feb 2, 2005 03:06 AM ET

By Chang-Ran Kim, Asia auto correspondent

TOKYO (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp. and Subaru-maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. may cooperate in hybrid vehicles in another development that could establish Toyota's system as the de facto standard for the fuel-saving technology.

A spokesman at Fuji Heavy said that although the company had not entered formal talks with Japan's top auto maker, there was a "very high chance" that Toyota's hybrid system would be the best match for its vehicles.

Toyota, which has so far agreed a licensing deal with rival Nissan Motor Co. to supply its hybrid system, has said it would welcome similar deals with other auto makers because higher production volumes would help it reduce per-unit costs.

Toyota accounts for the majority of hybrid vehicles sold in the world now, and also licenses part of its technology to Ford Motor Co..

A deal between the two Japanese companies would underscore Toyota's dominance in the field because Subaru would be choosing its technology over a less efficient hybrid system developed by General Motors Corp., its biggest shareholder.

GM said in December it would develop a new hybrid technology with DaimlerChrysler AG to catch up with leaders Toyota and Honda Motor Co., but the technology is best suited for bigger vehicles.

The Fuji Heavy spokesman said his company was still studying internally what type of cooperation, if any, it would need for its hybrid vehicles.

The Nihon Keizai business daily reported on Wednesday that Toyota, the world's second-biggest seller of cars behind GM, would likely supply the power system, the key component in hybrid vehicles, to Fuji Heavy, which in return would provide Toyota with technology for lithium ion batteries.

"We are in discussions with various auto makers that have expressed interest in our technology, but we cannot name any individual company," a Toyota spokesman said.

Fuji Heavy, held one-fifth by GM, would use the power system in its Legacy and other models sold in the United States, where it generates 35 percent of its sales, the paper said.

Toyota President Fujio Cho and Fuji Heavy President Kyoji Takenaka are expected to hold talks soon on the matter, which had been discussed on a working level since last year, it said.

Hybrid vehicles twin a combustion engine with an electric motor and battery in which the act of braking captures lost energy, enabling it to save fuel and emit fewer pollutants.

The fuel-sipping vehicles have been gaining popularity, especially in the United States, with 88,000 of them sold in 2004 through just three brands -- Toyota, Honda and Ford.

Sales are expected to more than double to at least 200,000 units there in 2005 as oil prices remain high.

Toyota, whose Prius gasoline-electric sedan has been leading the global hybrid market since it first appeared in 1997, has targeted sales of 300,000 hybrid vehicles a year by mid-decade.

(Additional reporting by Sachi Izumi)

interesting, thanks ... so what happened to the hybrid system Subaru was developing themselves? Also, what are the chances of getting a hybrid Legacy with MT? IIRC all Toyota hybrids are AT (Honda has some MT hybrids)

is this is a great situation. I hope it works out for both partners. Subaru could do a whole lot worse in terms of finding a partner for this technology.

Bob

interesting, thanks ... so what happened to the hybrid system Subaru was developing themselves? Also, what are the chances of getting a hybrid Legacy with MT? IIRC all Toyota hybrids are AT (Honda has some MT hybrids)
didn't FHI say they were going to focus on creating a diesel engine?

All hail the new GODs of the automotive market. Toyota is simply owning the world with its hybrid technology. Everybody save Honda is utilizing their system. Kudos to Toyota for being forward thinking, lets all watch their corporate taillights for the next few years!

SCRAPPYDO

What makes you think that Toyota's Hybrid technology is untouchable. Don't be surprised if Subaru makes something better of this techology and offers a better system than Toyota in the years to come.

didn't FHI say they were going to focus on creating a diesel engine?

How small do you think Subaru is? I'm sure they have appointed people dedicated to each...

Cool,
A hybrid with AWD, finally (sometime soon?) a Subaru with less fuel guilt.

didn't FHI say they were going to focus on creating a diesel engine?

well, how about diesel-electric hybrid? that would be the best of both worlds and even better gas mileage than gas-electric! with clean diesel on the way in the US, it'd low emissions too.

well, how about diesel-electric hybrid? that would be the best of both worlds and even better gas mileage than gas-electric! with clean diesel on the way in the US, it'd low emissions too.

I think it is good Subaru/Fuji is using Toyota's hybrid system. I know Toyota has said they are willing to share the technology. I think they are hoping to spread around some of the risk to other manufacturers - in case hybrid technology doesn't turn out to be the next big thing - even though that seems unlikely.
However the problem with the diesel electric hybrid is that it carries 2 premiums - the diesel engine premium and the hybrid system premium - which would probably add about $7000 to a small car price tag. VW has already done a diesel hybrid prototype Golf that runs on biodiesel which I think is even better.

A diesel electric hybrid might make sense in a truck/SUV though. The extra cost would not be so bad compared to a small car and it would get good hwy AND city mileage. It would run mostly electric in the city and mostly diesel on the highway.

And what will they name this hybrid that uses premium fuel?

......Introducing Subaru's new OXYMORON!

is this is a great situation. I hope it works out for both partners. Subaru could do a whole lot worse in terms of finding a partner for this technology.

Bob

I was thinking the same thing. Toyota and Nissan were always a tie for me for my SECOND favorite car company. :)

Here's an article that quotes extensively from the Ur-report by Nihon Keizai in Nikkei Net (www.nikkei.net). From http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/050201/323/fbkmz.html:Tuesday February 1, 11:03 PM

Toyota, Subaru carmaker Fuji Heavy to form hybrid vehicle partnership

TOKYO (AFX) - Toyota Motor Corp and Subaru-brand carmaker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd plan to form a technological partnership in hybrid vehicles, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported without citing sources.

Hybrid vehicles run on both an electric motor and an internal combustion engine, such as a gasoline engine.

Under the partnership, Toyota is expected to supply its hybrid power system to Fuji Heavy, which will use it to make hybrids a mainline product in the North American market, which accounts for 35 pct of its consolidated sales, the business daily said.

In return, Fuji Heavy is considering supplying to Toyota technology for hybrid-vehicle-use lithium ion batteries, the report said. A battery that Fuji Heavy co-developed with NEC Corp may be suitable for cars because it is small and highly vibration-resistant, it said.

'Until now, Fuji Heavy has been developing its own hybrid vehicle technology. But the firm intends to fully incorporate the Toyota hybrid vehicle technology, which has a lead in the field with its Prius passenger car, because its overall output was only about 590,000 vehicles in 2004 and the cost burden would be too big if it tried to commercialize the technology on its own,' the newspaper said in a report posted on its Nikkei Net Interactive website.

It noted US automaker General Motors Corp, Fuji Heavy's top shareholder, formed a partnership with Germany's DaimlerChrysler AG in December to jointly develop hybrid vehicle technology. But it said that effort is believed to focus on developing technology for use in large vehicles with engine displacements of 4.5 liters or more, and is not expected to be applied anytime soon to vehicles with engine displacements of around 3 liters, Fuji Heavy's strength.

'For this reason, Fuji Heavy aims to save time on development by teaming up with Toyota, which is challenging GM for the title of the world's leading automaker in terms of global sales,' the report said.I think there are several independent reasons why FHI would consider a partnership with Toyota for hybrid technology to be a good option.

FHI's chairman Kyoji Takenaka has said that FHI wants/needs to sell new high-density batteries from its NEC Lamillion joint venture to other car makers because Subaru cars alone can't make the venture profitable. So far the world's largest automaker (and FHI's alliance partner) GM has made no public statement about signing up for Lamillion batteries. If Toyota, the world's second largest car manufacturer (and supplier of hybrids to Nissan and Ford), opts for the Lamillion battery, then FHI and NEC can go ahead with plans to build a manufacturing plant for the batteries (in Indiana?)

It's very possible that FHI engineers have run into a problem - the possibility that some of their engineering solutions may infringe Toyota patents. Toyota has been in the hybrid business for awhile and likely worked out problems that turn out to be common for many/most hybrid archietectures. Like any good engineering-based company, Toyota got patents on those solutions. The low-level talks between FHI and Toyota mentioned in the reports above may have begun as discussions about patent (cross-)licensing.

Last year FHI's chairman said he had been very close to pulling the plug on either hybrid powertrain development or diesel engine devolopment, because it was very difficult to fund both programs. A partnership with Toyota on hybrid technology would relieve that pressure on R&D. It could also result in a production Subaru hybrid on the streets within a year, not two or three years down the road.

I just hope FHI is able to adapt Toyota hybrid technology to Subaru's SSHEV powertrain archietecture, which I think is very clever.

What makes you think that Toyota's Hybrid technology is untouchable. Don't be surprised if Subaru makes something better of this techology and offers a better system than Toyota in the years to come.

I would be VERY surprised. You are talking about a company that emphasizes a sense of "crisis" when it's literally Pwning the world. I doubt if they will become a lame duck any time soon and let a company that sells about half a million cars a year out-R&D them. Although it will be really cool if that happens.

I really like the idea that FHI is making a timely move to go with the crowd on this one. They better jump on the band wagon and put H6 hybrid on B9, and make it a flagship worthy of a "premium" make.

thats kool as long as subaru gives toyota credit un-like ford not claming the tech they got from toyota.....

thats kool as long as subaru gives toyota credit un-like ford not claming the tech they got from toyota.....
naw they dont need too

"the brand new 2007 R2. powered by a hybrid Toyota Priusengine with a Subaru H4"..

naw they dont need to give it credit.. that would screw the whole upscale thing and screw the lil brand name that they do have IMO

Saab refuses to give us credit for our WRX, so why should we even mention toyota in our adds.... Ford never says that their ranger has the best engine Mazda can make, or the new Ford Fusion is merely a rebodied Mazda 6. I heard on motorweek that ford plans on making something like 12 different models based on the mazda 6 chassis. Maybe the blue oval should look more like a big red dot.

SCRAPPYDO

The more toyota infiltrates the market with their hybrid technology, the more they set themselves up to the the 'standard' by which others are measured. There may come a time when you have a choice to either use Toyota proven system that the entire industry supports, or spend millions of dollars trying to develop your own whose every part has to be twice as expensive because its not 'standard'. Apple tried that and got eaten alive by the bigger standard Microsoft. Like it or not. Being different is not always better, even if you can make a better product.

SCRAPPYDO

Diesel electric is decades old and perfected so its also a good option, its what trains have been using for years.

thats kool as long as subaru gives toyota credit un-like ford not claming the tech they got from toyota.....Ford has made it quite clear that while it pays Toyota for the use of a specific part, the part was developed by its in-house alternative drivetrain team and that, due to the component's close similarity to a part Toyota developed, it only pays the Japanese automaker to uphold patent requirements. In other words, Ford designed a component for its Escape hybrid and then determined that it might infringe one or more patents held by Toyota - so Ford obtained a license from Toyota to use those patents. Ford isn't using any parts supplied by Toyota.

FHI may have run into the very same problem that Ford did, which might have been the basis for its initial discussions with Toyota.

I wonder how it can work out because Toyota system utilize parallel configuration while subaru SSHEV has sequential architecture.

Also, what are the chances of getting a hybrid Legacy with MT? IIRC all Toyota hybrids are AT (Honda has some MT hybrids)

If a future Legacy hybrid uses the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive system there is almost a 0% chance that it will have a manual tranmission. The Toyota system doesn't even have a transmission in the conventional sense. It uses a "Power Split Device" that is a planetary gear set between the ICE and electric motors and acts like a continuously variable transmission. This is the primary difference between the Toyota and the Honda hybrid models. The Honda approach uses an electric motor/generator (Integrated Motor Assist) that sits like the flywheel between the engine and transmission. This allows Honda (within packaging constraints) to fit the IMA to any engine/transmission combination. (And IMHO, makes more sense for an SUV that has any intentions of towing or off-roading. There is no driveshaft between the front and rear axles on the Lexus RX400h. The rear wheels are driven by a separate air cooled 50kw motor and aren't suited for severe off-roading).

well, how about diesel-electric hybrid? that

GM is already developing diesel-electric hybrids. It is the basis for the
Opel Astra Diesel Hybrid Concept (http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050111.006/Opel/1.html) and is the basis for a future hybrid collaboration between GM and DiamlerChrysler.

Its interesting that everyone seems to be pigeon holed into the toyota patents... is there only one way of doing things?

Its interesting that everyone seems to be pigeon holed into the toyota patents... is there only one way of doing things?

Until companies get their hands on Toyota's technology and do some productive R&D to it, basically it's Toyota's game right now.

Until companies get their hands on Toyota's technology and do some productive R&D to it, basically it's Toyota's game right now.It's very easy for anyone to "get their hands on Toyota's technology" because it's all patented and, therefore, disclosed to the public.

']It's very easy for anyone to "get their hands on Toyota's technology" because it's all patented and, therefore, disclosed to the public.

True... but what I meant was learning and advancing it. I'm sure Toyota's probably thought of any possible 'upgrades' and have covered 'all the bases''; but another kind of technology can derive from this one.

Diesel electric is decades old and perfected so its also a good option, its what trains have been using for years.

Trains are different; the diesels run continously and supply power to the electric motors that then run the train. I'm talking about a hybrid system that can switch back and forth.

i'm wondering how complete those patents are.. it just seems toyota really kicked some butt on this hybrid system... I don't want to go through the patent search... Jon [in CT] have you gone though these already?

Oh well there's always the flux capacitor...

i'm wondering how complete those patents are.. it just seems toyota really kicked some butt on this hybrid system... I don't want to go through the patent search... Jon [in CT] have you gone though these already?

Oh well there's always the flux capacitor...I haven't taken a look at any Toyota patents. But it does seem Toyota has at least one patent in this area that's sorta like Amazon's US5960411 "One Click Checkout" software patent for internet business. I think I'll poke around and try to find out the specific Toyota patent(s) that Ford is licensing to build their Escape hybrid.