http://www.reuters.com/financeNewsArticle.jhtml;VRX0DH1W3BATYCRBAEOCFEY?t ype=marketsNews&storyID=7617180


Subaru cuts 04/05 forecast as product mix worsens


TOKYO, Feb 14 (Reuters) - Subaru-maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. (7270.T: Quote, Profile, Research) posted a 26 percent drop in nine-month operating profit on Monday and slashed its full-year forecast citing a worsening product mix and higher marketing and other sales costs.

Subaru, held one-fifth by General Motors Corp. (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , had been banking on the remodelled flagship Legacy and other new cars to improve its fortunes, but faced declining profitability as more customers opted for cheaper variations of its products.

"Sales of (high-margin) turbo engine versions of the Legacy were lower, and that hit profits," Executive Vice President Shunsuke Takagi told a news conference.

For the year to March 31, Japan's niche maker of all-wheel-drive off-road vehicles now forecasts an operating profit of 40 billion yen ($379.5 million) instead of 45 billion yen, expecting a deterioration in the model mix to shave an extra 3 billion yen.

It will also shell out 2.1 billion yen more on TV commercials and other sales-related costs than previously expected, mainly in the domestic market.

At the new forecast, Subaru's operating profit would be 20.5 percent below last year's 50.3 billion yen.

Net profit is now projected at 28 billion yen instead of 32 billion, even though its revenue forecast was untouched at 1.45 trillion yen as sales volume came roughly in line with expectations.

For the nine months to Dec. 31, operating profit was 26.5 billion yen, dented by a nine-yen fall in the dollar to 109 yen. A weaker dollar makes exports from Japan more expensive and reduces the value of dollar-based earnings when converted into yen.

Among Japanese car makers, Subaru is especially vulnerable to a weak dollar since North America accounts for over a third of its sales.

Net profit for the first three quarters fell 28 percent to 20.72 billion yen due to difficult comparisons from the year before, when the company booked a special gain on stock sales.

Revenue rose 2.1 percent to 1.05 trillion yen as volumes grew in every major region.

SALES INCENTIVES TO RISE

Subaru said, however, that sales of the Legacy had run its course in Japan, prompting it to lower its full business-year domestic sales target by 2,000 units to 263,000 vehicles.

In the United States, on the other hand, Takagi said Subaru expected to enjoy a continued rise in sales, although he warned that spending on discounts and other consumer incentives would likely rise on tough competition and higher U.S. interest rates.

Subaru's U.S. sales have risen by double digits for four of the last five months, with a slowdown last month to a seasonally adjusted 3 percent.

Takagi called January an aberration caused by the snowstorms in the U.S. Northeast, where its all-wheel-drive cars are popular, and said he expected brisk demand to resume this month.

"Sales in the first 10 days of February were up around 20 percent, and they should remain strong for a while," he said.

Subaru is also counting on the B9 Tribeca high-end crossover vehicle -- its first product in the premium segment -- to lift sales when it hits showrooms this summer in the United States.

Globally, Subaru tweaked its sales forecast up by 1,000 units to 589,000 vehicles, helped by better sales in markets outside Japan and North America.

Fuji Heavy shares sank 11.2 percent during the nine months, underperforming a 6.1 percent rise in Tokyo's transport sector subindex and a 2.5 percent fall in the broader TOPIX index.

Ahead of the results, the shares ended up 3.2 percent on the day at 516 yen against a 0.19 percent rise in the subindex. ($1=105.40 yen)

My response: Subaru is trying to go upmarket with "nicer" more expensive cars, but the market don't want those. The market wants Subies to be good, reliable AWD cars that are sold at a good price. Willing to pay extra for performance, not so much for frills.

And my response is: How is this thread different from the earlier posts in http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716997?

Uh, someone replied to this thread? Just pulling your leg, fellow Jon :)

']And my response is: How is this thread different from the earlier posts in http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716997?

My response: Subaru is trying to go upmarket with "nicer" more expensive cars, but the market don't want those. The market wants Subies to be good, reliable AWD cars that are sold at a good price. Willing to pay extra for performance, not so much for frills.

You can thank GM for this BS and the downfall of subaru as we know it

You can thank GM for this BS and the downfall of subaru as we know it

No.

GM has had little to no effect on Subaru at all. GM didn't tell Subaru to market the Legacy as a luxury car and GM had no part in the development of the B9 or the new Legacy. GM doesn't even own a controlling interest in FHI.

Subaru needs to stop marketing for and targeting the luxury automobile segment. Nissan and Toyota learned this a long time ago thereby creating Lexus and Infiniti. Very few people out there want a luxury Subaru. It's almost an oxymoron....

Like BoneStockTS said, Subaru needs to stick to what they do well; building cheap, reliable, AWD cars. They're not going to be able to hang with Nissan and Toyota in the luxury car segments because Subaru isn't nearly as mainstream as the other two are. It's still a niche car brand, a niche that doesn't include luxury IMHO.

-faast

I hope Subaru isn't getting the wild ideas once again to become mainstream like Honda, Toyota et al which almost killed them back in the '90s.

And on selling the Tribeca, the grille is the least of its concerns (I mean the FX35 sells after all); their main challenge will be on how they position it and if its dynamics are better then its immediate competition.

They could lead the class if they decide to take on the Murano/Pilot/Highlander with it, but Subaru's working against all odds if they think they can get the badgesnobs with this.

It's too bad since I bet at least half of the SUV owners in America would do better with some sort of Subaru.

']And my response is: How is this thread different from the earlier posts in http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=716997?
Jon, stop being bitchy. You don't have to personally "own" every news item in this forum.

Do a search on "chill out", n00b. :D

Subaru needs to stop marketing for and targeting the luxury automobile segment. Nissan and Toyota learned this a long time ago thereby creating Lexus and Infiniti. Very few people out there want a luxury Subaru. It's almost an oxymoron....

Like BoneStockTS said, Subaru needs to stick to what they do well; building cheap, reliable, AWD cars. They're not going to be able to hang with Nissan and Toyota in the luxury car segments because Subaru isn't nearly as mainstream as the other two are. It's still a niche car brand, a niche that doesn't include luxury IMHO.

It's too bad since I bet at least half of the SUV owners in America would do better with some sort of Subaru.

To use the OT term, 12345.

Subaru's steadily adding performance to its niche reputation (a rep it's already had outside North America for some time) but it can't lose the "value for money" reputation it's earned here.

I don't spend a lot of time analyzing this, granted, but there seems to be a "have your cake and eat it too" mentality among some consumers. So many people here and elsewhere have posted that they want satnav, higher-quality leather, and many other luxury features available in their Subaru. However this article makes the point that these people won't pay extra for them (I won't stretch to the conculsion that they expect those features to be standard, at no extra cost).

At the same time there's a market that wants an AWD vehicle with all those luxury features, but wouldn't buy a Subaru that had them. They would rather buy an AWD version of a "luxury" brand than a luxury version of an "AWD" brand. Kudos to Subaru's competitors for recognizing that, but still I have to wonder how much threat/competition they saw in Subaru to all jump on that bandwagon.

As for me, I have a hard time understanding why anyone would buy any Lexus/Infiniti model that is a luxed-up, rebadged version of a Toyota/Nissan model. I like Audis but I wouldn't the long-term maintenance and repair costs of an Audi (I've been down that road with VW, and I often remind myself Audi = luxed-up VW); maybe that's why people lease luxury cars rather than buy them. So maybe I fall into that old "inexpensive and built to stay that way" group, but I also see that Subaru offers equal or better performance and equal or better reliability for lower cost. So what if Subarus don't have that badge snobbery appeal? Maybe there are better things I want to do with my money.

I realize I'm restating the obvious to many, and maybe I don't think like the typical consumer (but maybe like the typical Subaru owner? I don't know). Anyhow I'll repeat the mantra: Subaru - stick to value for money, durability, reliability, and throw in some high performance now and then. The automotive press - both in print and online - are picking up on that, and people who use those to influence their buying decisions will, I imagine, eventually do so as well.

Ed

My response: Subaru is trying to go upmarket with "nicer" more expensive cars, but the market don't want those. The market wants Subies to be good, reliable AWD cars that are sold at a good price. Willing to pay extra for performance, not so much for frills.

I agree- I think Subaru's core customers, the ones that have been brand loyal and the ones who made the Forrester the highest loyalty SUV, aren't upmarket customers. I do like the nicer VW-like interiors, but I don't like them to use things like that or "upmarket branding" to justify gradual price increases for the sake of attracting premium customers. Its ironic, folks on this board will make fun of 9-2X buyers for paying more for essentially a rebadged WRX- but they seem to support Subaru's move to premium branding.

If Subaru brought the price range of the Tribeca down about $5,000-$7,000, they would sell through the roof! Sure they would lose money at first, but once the installed base is up, they could easily make the money in parts, maintenance, etc.

They should have the 3.0R in Legacy trim for the North America market for 2006, which at least as of now, I don't think will happen. As much as yeah, the turbo cars are nice and fun (I own one myself), the H6 is really more of a bread and butter sort of thing. Turbos and 2 less cylinders (even if there is less torque) aren't good things at the GT's price range for those who aren't in the know. It should be at the same price or slightly less than the GT however and those things would sell well IMO.

Is the Baja going to get the axe yet?

Is the Baja going to get the axe yet?

it should...since it sold 7,316 in 2004 a decrease from 2003 by 32%!!!

http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/DotNet/Newsroom/Query.aspx?SiteName=Subaru&Entity=PRAsset&SF_PRAsset_PRAssetID_EQ=95874&XSL=PressRelease&Title=Releases&Cache=True

If you look at the numbers for 2004 Subaru Car Sales...only the legacy was up...all the others fell in sales numbers compared to 2003 sales figure...

Legacy 89,453 12%
Impreza 32,209 -12%
Forester 58,424 -2%
Baja 7,316 -32%

Total Subaru 187,402

Yeah, thats pretty embarassing.

they should just get rid of the Baja

and just bring over the R2 Custom

Subaru would definitely sell over 10K units of these little buggers...

http://response.jp/issue/2004/1129/article65933_1.images/77027.jpg

they should just get rid of the Baja

and just bring over the R2 Custom

Subaru would definitely sell over 10K units of these little buggers...

http://response.jp/issue/2004/1129/article65933_1.images/77027.jpg
Being the owner a Baja Turbo, and hearing all this talk of dumping it, I find disturbing! Yes, in many Subaru owners minds, we, who own them, have inherited the Red Haired StepChild. Please, folks give us a break, wouldya!
I am also the owner of an Outback wagon, and as I have stated over in the Baja Forum, the Outback was the reason I bought my Baja, along with the fact that the Baja fills my needs for what I need a vehicle for.
The fact that the Baja is a little mix of everything Subaru makes, is what makes it unique. With the turbo, you have a little of the WRX, the front end and cabin, the Outback, a pickup bed (ala Brat) and natch, all wheel drive, it makes for a FUN vehicle to drive!
Yeah, they're not selling a lot of them to be sure, but as it has been posted elsewhere, they're not doing enough advertising for it. I truly believe that Subaru really can't figure out how to market the Baja.
Hey, I would have loved to have bought an WRX or an Sti, but to me they are not practical. The Baja on the other hand, WRX motor, sport shift, room for 4, and can use it to haul items when needed, made it sense for me to buy!
I thank Subaru for making this vehicle. Believe it or not, it does fill a need for some of us, and that is the bottom line.
So, before the flames begin, let me say this, whatever Subie you are driving, enjoy! Having tried all of them at one time or another, they all suit a purpose! Be thankful that you have such a choice, and support Subaru as much as you can, so you can continue to have that choice!
Keep it under 90, folks!
P.S. I, too like the looks of the small Subaru. I believe it would do well here! Hey, they brought that Scion over, :p and I think the R2 is MUCH better looking!

I agree w/the statement of subaru needing a new brand name for luxury line......... maybe call it Alcyone?

-mikey

Subaru already has a brand name for the luxury line. It's called Saab...

Seriously, Subaru does need to expand its product mix, but I don't think the B9 is the way to go. That segment is crowded and they mostly offer AWD, which has been the Subaru standout strength.

I vote for a more upmarket Legacy. Let's face it, Subaru beat the big boys to be car of the year in Japan with the current Legacy, so why not build on that?

A Legacy based vehicle (doesn't need to be called a legacy as such - probably better to have a new name), 3.0, turbo optional, auto or stick, HID, nav, bluetooth, XM, Onstar, ESP (the others have it in the more upmarket range), better noise isolation, esp. from the powertrain, 6 speed and auto both with a decent highway cruise gear and more upmarket trim (LTD plus). Oh, and get away from the "premium gas required" for the n/a version. One way to look at it is to target Acura, not Honda, and especially not the minivan/crossover game.

And for G**'s sake, no '60's Saab snout.

Seriously, Subaru does need to expand its product mix, but I don't think the B9 is the way to go. That segment is crowded and they mostly offer AWD, which has been the Subaru standout strength.

I vote for a more upmarket Legacy. Let's face it, Subaru beat the big boys to be car of the year in Japan with the current Legacy, so why not build on that?

First off, the B9 Tribeca is EXACTLY where Subaru needs to go. FINALLY, they have a vehicle that can fit MORE than 4-5 people. It only took them, what, 35 years? The fact that SUbaru has never had enough passenger-carrying capability has held them back in the past and has become increasingly problematic in the last few years as the demand for this capacity increases.

As for your second paragraph, it seems to contradict your first. The first paragraph states Subaru should expand its product mix. The second states the desire for more of th same (ANOTHER Legacy). Which do you want? Make up your mind!

LOWER YOUR FRIGGIN LEASE/FINANCE RATES! :furious:

Thats what Subaru needs to do. They just lost me as a customer a few months ago.

I was fully prepared to buy a Legacy wagon (even the base model), but I went with a LOADED Mazda 6 Wagon.

Why? Because even though the Mazda was more expensive, their lease rate was at least half that of Subaru's, which was cheaper by $50 per month...for less of car :rolleyes:

Sorry Subie....I would've preferred the better car, but you lost a customer simply because of your eye waterting lease rates.

If they're having this much trouble selling vehicles in their normal price range, then Subaru must be insane to think that their declining fortunes will be magically reversed by going up against Lexus/Mercedes with the Tribeca.

This is much like the Volkswagen of 1992 trying to sell the Touareg.

If they're having this much trouble selling vehicles in their normal price range, then Subaru must be insane to think that their declining fortunes will be magically reversed by going up against Lexus/Mercedes with the Tribeca.

This is much like the Volkswagen of 1992 trying to sell the Touareg.

The Tribeca is entering a market where there's a number of cars already entrenched. Subaru's trying to enter the mainstream which is something they shouldn't be trying to do IMO. The Tribeca will flop.

I vote for a more upmarket Legacy. Let's face it, Subaru beat the big boys to be car of the year in Japan with the current Legacy, so why not build on that?

OK then, so we'll have a $40k Legacy? Who outside of the most diehard fanboys is going to pay $40k for a Legacy? No one. There are some pretty nice cars out there in the $40k range, surely enough to make me think twice about purchasing a Subaru. Subaru should not attempt to market a high luxury car, it's only going to end in disaster.

LOWER YOUR FRIGGIN LEASE/FINANCE RATES! :furious:

Thats what Subaru needs to do. They just lost me as a customer a few months ago.

I was fully prepared to buy a Legacy wagon (even the base model), but I went with a LOADED Mazda 6 Wagon.

Why? Because even though the Mazda was more expensive, their lease rate was at least half that of Subaru's, which was cheaper by $50 per month...for less of car :rolleyes:

Sorry Subie....I would've preferred the better car, but you lost a customer simply because of your eye waterting lease rates.


my friend when he was looking for a car, i tried to push him to get a subaru legacy 2.5 GT limited w/ 5spd auto but they wanted close to $28k for it!!!

he got a Nissan Maxima SE w/ 5spd auto instead for $24k...

I agree that Subaru's skyhigh MSRP prices scare many potential buyers out of the market; I would have been driving a Honda Accord V6 right now if I wasn't able to negotiate my Legacy GT 5EAT down to $25,149- which was probably due to the fact that they're not selling that much.

Subaru still has a chance to redeem the Tribeca- nix the pointless 5 seater, and start the 7 seater with cloth at ~$29k.

BTW: One cause of their worries, is that Subaru's lineup isn't complimentary, and doesn't give owners much incentive to upgrade to higher-priced Subarus.

Instead of having models compete with each other, as they arguably do now, I would suggest shrinking the WRX back to the GC size, adding turbo H6 versions of the Tribeca and Legacy while making the Forester a smaller, four-cylinder vehicle in the vein of the Tribeca, derived from a Legacy platform.

That way Subaru fans can start off with an Impreza, and progress up the ladder with unique choices and no loss in performance (which Subaru should leverage throughout their lineup). It might sound radical, but with the problems they're going through right now, I think a lineup like that would get them back on their feet.

one of the problem I see with subaru's push to premium, and it's from a personnal experience, is the level of refinement/equipment for the price

I just bought a 2006 Audi A4, which should cost me about 50kcdn fully loaded (xenons, navi, sunroof) and was seriously looking at the Legacy GT, even thought it's selling for about 8k less than the the Audi, it doesnt offer the same equipment, or things i was looking for (xenons were one) and warranty is another let down by subaru compared to BMW and Audi's which are longer, and offer scheduled maintenance

If they really want to achieve that push to premium, they need to better equip their vehicule, AWD is a nice thing to have, but doesnt cut it for many people, especially in area where there is no snow, and simply going for performance, many people like me prefer a little less power but more luxury, and I aint 40yo, im a 23years old guy

my friend when he was looking for a car, i tried to push him to get a subaru legacy 2.5 GT limited w/ 5spd auto but they wanted close to $28k for it!!!

he got a Nissan Maxima SE w/ 5spd auto instead for $24k...

Yep. The Legacy is simply a few thousand dollars too expensive. When AWD is standard, you can't expect to charge a premium for it and compete against FWD cars for consumers who don't care about drivetrain configuration.

If I hadn't found AWD to be very helpful the few days out of the year that I need it, I'd be looking at a TL...

Yep. The Legacy is simply a few thousand dollars too expensive. When AWD is standard, you can't expect to charge a premium for it and compete against FWD cars for consumers who don't care about drivetrain configuration.

If I hadn't found AWD to be very helpful the few days out of the year that I need it, I'd be looking at a TL...


You are right, plus my friend who isn't a car nut also said that the "V6 > 4cyl"

the Maxima SE was everything he wanted plus $4k cheaper...just doesn't have AWD.

Subaru better watch out...alot more car companies are going to be offering cars with AWD.


http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101817


The Next Big Thing? Automakers rush to meet all-wheel drive demand

All-wheel drive has become all the rage, but it's a phenomenon that seemed to sneak up on some automakers.

General Motors and Ford Motor Co. are among those scrambling to catch up as awd cars catch on.

At the Chicago Auto Show last week, Cadillac officials admitted they underestimated demand for awd STS V-8 models. And Ford has struggled to meet unexpectedly heavy demand for awd versions of its Ford Five Hundred sedan, Freestyle sport wagon and Mercury Montego sedan.

Ford executives might make awd standard on a new generation of Lincoln sedans that debut this decade. The automaker also might increase production plans for both the awd Mercury Milan and Lincoln Zephyr, which go on sale in about a year.

All-wheel drive is the industry's newest "gotta have it" equipment, and it is about to get hotter. CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich., forecasts that North American automakers will build 1.96 million awd vehicles annually by the end of this decade. That's up from about 1.06 million units this year. And that doesn't include a separate wave of imported awd vehicles.

"It's big," says forecaster Paul Haelterman of CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich. "It's more than just a trend. Every carmaker understands that if they're going to have a performance sedan, they're going to have to get all-wheel drive.

"By the end of this decade," Haelterman predicts, "all luxury or near-luxury cars will have awd as standard or option."

The number of awd-equipped nameplates, including cars and trucks, more than tripled between 1999 and 2004, rising from 22 nameplates to 73, according to the online automotive data base Edmunds.com. The number will hit 83 models this year.

American Honda Motor Co.'s Acura Division has created awd versions of both its RL and TL sedans. And Nissan North America Inc.'s Infiniti line is planning an awd version of its G35 sedan, as well as its new M35 flagship. Mercedes-Benz USA LLC in September began offering all-wheel drive as a free option on S-class sedans.

Weather-related

Jim Hall, vice president of the research firm AutoPacific Inc., says most of the awd sales growth is coming from consumers in bad-weather regions - the Northeast, the Rockies and the Pacific Northwest.

"There are dealers in those states that just don't order cars like the Lexus GS 300 during certain months of the year because nobody will buy them," Hall says. "People won't drive them in the snow."

But by adding awd to the GS 300, he says, Lexus has turned it into a year-round product. Lexus announced the plan last week in Chicago.

CSM's Haelterman believes all-wheel drive is also becoming more important as high-end cars get bigger engine output.

"The new bogey is a 250-hp V-6," Haelterman says. "But carmakers are talking about boosting that to 300 hp and higher. From a performance point of view, you need the all-wheel drive. If you don't send all that power out to all four wheels, you're going to have issues with slippage and handling."

As all-wheel drive sales take off, the winners among suppliers are makers of transfer cases and power takeoff units. That includes Dana Corp., GKN PLC, Haldex AB, ZF Group, BorgWarner Inc. and Magna International.

"The components come from all over the world," Haelterman said. "Capacity can be easily added."

Lincoln Mercury President Darryl Hazel said the automaker is reviewing the original awd forecast for the Milan and Zephyr with an eye to increasing it. Hazel did not disclose the awd projection.

"That is under very active consideration," he said. "It is pretty sad if you can't learn from your experience, so I would say that we are trying to understand what we are observing and see what we can learn from it."

Lincoln also plans to develop two sedans off the D3 platform that is shared with the Five Hundred, Freestyle and Montego. One car, expected to be the replacement for the LS, will debut in late 2007 while a larger sedan is expected in 2008. Hazel said those cars may be offered with all-wheel drive as a standard feature.

"The thought occurred to me 18 months ago. That is under active discussion," he said.

Cadillac admits it can't meet demand for all-wheel drive in V-8 versions of the STS sedan.

"Honestly, we missed it," Cadillac marketing director Jay Spenchian said at the Chicago Auto Show, adding that it must "be more broadly available. But we missed the shift to all-wheel drive."

Spenchian said 20 percent of STS demand has been for the awd-equipped, top-of-the-line G trim. The vehicle has a sticker price of $64,730 including destination. Cadillac has delivered on less than one-quarter of that demand, he said.

Within a month, Spenchian said, Cadillac will expand its awd option to the $58,785 F trim. Cadillac has told dealers it will add awd to its V-6 lineup by summer.

'Phenomenal' demand

"People are clamoring," Spenchian said. "To have 20 percent demand at launch for a $63,000 car is phenomenal. We would have never predicted that."

He said Cadillac wanted to have awd in most STS packages, but had to make engineering decisions early in development that affected the mix.

Some dealers aren't happy about the shortage. "We can't get them because they're not building enough of them," said Chuck Kohen, sales manager at Schepel Cadillac-Hummer in Merrillville, Ind., where Kohen has one awd STS customer waiting 60 days for delivery and another waiting 90 days. "They dropped the ball on this and if they can't build it into the G, how will they do the F?"

Spenchian said increasing availability won't be a problem at GM's Lansing, Mich., plant.

"When you look at the uplevel V-8s, it was a chink in the armor, and all-wheel drive is driving a lot of that," he said. "Frankly, it's higher than we expected, but we will adjust."

they should just get rid of the Baja

and just bring over the R2 Custom

Subaru would definitely sell over 10K units of these little buggers...

http://response.jp/issue/2004/1129/article65933_1.images/77027.jpg

Come to Canada..... Toyota sells the Echo Hatchback.... the R2 looks almost identical to the Echo...

http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/images/04echo_hb2dr_1.jpg

These came out in 2004 and Toyota is selling them like crazy.... they're expecting about 24000 units this year alone.....

For the Baja, we only had it in Canada for 1 year only.... as sales were too low!

Subaru is going indeed the wrong way..... being upscale is certainly not their identity.... which they want to change.... New Legacy is nice but it's interior is no where near it's competition... they're still way behind..... for a non-subaru owner to go see a subaru, and win them over, they better learn a thing or two (or probably a lot more) from Lexus.....

For myself, my next subaru will probably be a base RS.... I've seen the WRX, STI and now legacy GT come and all wanted them but when it comes down to actually buying another car, I'll still go for the base RS.....

Robin

If they're having this much trouble selling vehicles in their normal price range, then Subaru must be insane to think that their declining fortunes will be magically reversed by going up against Lexus/Mercedes with the Tribeca.

This is much like the Volkswagen of 1992 trying to sell the Touareg.

or the Phaeton!

American Honda Motor Co.'s Acura Division has created awd versions of both its RL and TL sedans. And Nissan North America Inc.'s Infiniti line is planning an awd version of its G35 sedan, as well as its new M35 flagship. Mercedes-Benz USA LLC in September began offering all-wheel drive as a free option on S-class sedans.

isn't the G35 already available in AWD? And when did the TL get AWD?

wrong post

wrong post

If the MazdaSpeed 6 is true to what it's offering for the price, the Legacy 2.5GT might be dead for the general population. And to the point about all these luxury sedans adding AWD - they can charge extra for it while Subaru can't do the same for the nice interior.

Another thing I suspect is the cost of production - the big names have it down to a level where they can make more profit at the same price while Subaru is only going upscale recently.

Echo/Vitz Hatch = 2116lbs on a 93.3" wheelbase and 56.7" track.

R2 = 1763lbs on a 92.9" wheelbase and 51" track. (1874lbs for the DOHC AWD model)

The R2 is really.. really small.. which is why it could become a significant vehicle in the North American market.

And when did the TL get AWD?

I don't know, but this may warrant a trip to the local acura dealer!

OK then, so we'll have a $40k Legacy? Who outside of the most diehard fanboys is going to pay $40k for a Legacy? No one. There are some pretty nice cars out there in the $40k range, surely enough to make me think twice about purchasing a Subaru. Subaru should not attempt to market a high luxury car, it's only going to end in disaster.

Ain't that the truth. While I really like my little Subie, there's no way in hell I'd spend 40 grand on a nicer one. For 40 K I can get a nicely equipped 4x4 Dodge Ram Quad Cab, a BMW X3 3.0i with extra options, or a BMW 330 Xi with extra options.

So I can get MANY other vehicles that outdo the Subaru either in terms of

Dodge: Offroad performance, passenger carrying ability, towing ability, and lots of other abilities,

BMW: Performance, handling, and STATUS

It would be utter madness to try to market a $40K Subaru, unless it was an über-STi with 400+ HP and Ferrari-killing performance.

yeah, the G35 has been AWD for some time now.

If the TL is actually AWD, then I'm gonna have to tell my mom to hold her plans for the G35x!

I think it's only the (upmarket, more expensive) RL that's AWD....not the TL.

I am surprised that Honda doesn't offer the Accord here w/ AWD

they have it available in Japan...

http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/accord/grade-data/index.html

Let's not forget that VW's new dealerships are clean, look great and are effective at selling cars, while most Subaru showrooms and service areas have all the aesthetics of Bowser's dungeon in the Mario games with the salespeople having as much charm as Bowser himself.


It seems that Subaru wants to become premium with putting the least amount of work into things while they haven't realized that in the luxury market, product isn't everything.

or the Phaeton!

No.

GM has had little to no effect on Subaru at all. GM didn't tell Subaru to market the Legacy as a luxury car and GM had no part in the development of the B9 or the new Legacy. GM doesn't even own a controlling interest in FHI.

Subaru needs to stop marketing for and targeting the luxury automobile segment. Nissan and Toyota learned this a long time ago thereby creating Lexus and Infiniti. Very few people out there want a luxury Subaru. It's almost an oxymoron....

Like BoneStockTS said, Subaru needs to stick to what they do well; building cheap, reliable, AWD cars. They're not going to be able to hang with Nissan and Toyota in the luxury car segments because Subaru isn't nearly as mainstream as the other two are. It's still a niche car brand, a niche that doesn't include luxury IMHO.

-faast

I think you are wrong, matter of fact I know that you are wrong. My rep from SOA always comes to the dealer worrying what is going to happen next. People at subaru are getting worried that GM is going to steel alot of idea's. I dont blame him for worrying either because not only is the B9 going to have a sibbling in that SAAB thing, the same chasis as this is also going to be badged a SATURN. Other things such as OnStar, AC delco parts, GM drivetrain
equipment in the Subaru's vehicles, taking the forester and rebadging it a Chevy are only the little things. They state also that the internal structures are changing.
Oh by the way, I think they should market themselves as a Honda or Toyota, look where they are! The Legacy doesnt win Car of the Year two times just because there wasnt anything compairable. Just think of the cars that everyone thinks are the best cars and dont even make it to our shores. Remember, those cars are all in the same test. My car has 232,547 miles on it with all the original equipment on it. Ide say that is pretty comparable to a Toyota or Honda-which Ive been the proud owner of both.
my $.02
Nick

I think you are wrong, matter of fact I know that you are wrong. My rep from SOA always comes to the dealer worrying what is going to happen next. People at subaru are getting worried that GM is going to steel alot of idea's. I dont blame him for worrying either because not only is the B9 going to have a sibbling in that SAAB thing, the same chasis as this is also going to be badged a SATURN. Other things such as OnStar, AC delco parts, GM drivetrain equipment in the Subaru's vehicles, taking the forester and rebadging it a Chevy are only the little things. They state also that the internal structures are changing.

Now there's where I'm with you. I could care less about the badge snobbery of the Germans and Lexus/Infiniti. I've owned a GM car - once was enough - and once Subarus are filled with ACDelco and Delphi switchgear is when I leave the fold. It's too bad FHI can't or won't free itself from GM's tentacles.

I think you are wrong, matter of fact I know that you are wrong. My rep from SOA always comes to the dealer worrying what is going to happen next. People at subaru are getting worried that GM is going to steel alot of idea's. I dont blame him for worrying either because not only is the B9 going to have a sibbling in that SAAB thing, the same chasis as this is also going to be badged a SATURN. Other things such as OnStar, AC delco parts, GM drivetrain
equipment in the Subaru's vehicles, taking the forester and rebadging it a Chevy are only the little things. They state also that the internal structures are changing.
Oh by the way, I think they should market themselves as a Honda or Toyota, look where they are! The Legacy doesnt win Car of the Year two times just because there wasnt anything compairable. Just think of the cars that everyone thinks are the best cars and dont even make it to our shores. Remember, those cars are all in the same test. My car has 232,547 miles on it with all the original equipment on it. Ide say that is pretty comparable to a Toyota or Honda-which Ive been the proud owner of both.
my $.02
Nick

So since you've heard it at the dealer it's gotta be true right?

I'm not as worried about GM taking something as I am GM giving something. It'd be a travesty if GM requested that Subaru build an SUV off of the Trailblazer platform. Again though GM doesn't control Subaru like they control Saab, GM has a controlling ownership in Saab that they don't have in Subaru.

As to the B9 becoming a Saab, I think it's immaterial because the B9 prolly won't be here in five years anyway. Mark my words, it's not going to do well.

Oh by the way, I think they should market themselves as a Honda or Toyota, look where they are!

You're forgetting what Subaru is, they're not a mass marketed car brand nor should they be. They've always been a niche brand and they've never had any aspirations to become Toyota or Honda. As long as Subaru continues to build good cars I could careless how big they are or how many cars they sell in a year. Bigger is not always better.

The Legacy doesnt win Car of the Year two times just because there wasnt anything compairable. Just think of the cars that everyone thinks are the best cars and dont even make it to our shores. Remember, those cars are all in the same test.

Awards are all fine and dandy but the true test is in the sales. It IS a great car, but Subaru being the niche car brand that they are, will only sell a fraction of what other Japanese manufacturers are selling with their comparable cars. As I alluded to previously, sales aren't everything though, I'm sure Subaru doesn't feel the need to sell 800,000 Legacies a year. That's not who they are.

Just to clarify also, I wasn't comparing Honda, Toyota, Nissan and Subaru in terms of build quality. It was in terms of the type of company they are and their marketing and sales strategies.

-faast

I am surprised that Honda doesn't offer the Accord here w/ AWD

they have it available in Japan...

http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/accord/grade-data/index.html

wow, if that table is right, the AWD system adds about 80kg (176 lbs) to the JDM Accord, which is our TSX. An AWD Acura TSX would be pretty sweet.