I installed a water injection kit that I got from coolingmist.com. Today I started doing a few wot runs and tuning for it a bit. I wish I would have done this sooner. with just a pressure switch set to start spraying at 10 psi, I am able to run 19 psi with the stock ic, with egts that max out at 720. I breifly tried 21 psi with an a/f of 11.8 and got no knock at all. I haven't touched timing or fuel yet. This is with a vf39 and sti pinks. I am not going to go for max power, but I like the safety aspect of it. I feel like I can get a really safe tune to where I can hammer on the car all day long. I can't wait until this weekend when I can really play with this. I am probably going to add a second injector and set it to start spraying at 4 or 5 psi.

Sounds exciting but I'm really uninformed. I know how it works, what it does, all that business...but for some reason I thought that putting water in your gas was bad. What's the pros/cons of this over alch. injection? Any place I can go so I don't have to bother you with q's?

-Danny

I've been trying to tell people about w/i for years. Congrats on a good mod!!
<<<<<<<

icantdrive, what it does is spray a really fine mist into the throttlebody. it cools the intake charge tremendously. it is almost like running race gas all the time. it makes the engine way, way more detonation resistant. as far as benefits over alky, it is probably the other way around. alky is a fuel so i believe it will make more power (don't quote me on that) coolingmist.com has a lot of info on water injection, as well as a whole variety of kits from 100 bux on up (I sound like a commercial now)

imagine driving in a really cool humid day. After it rained cats and dogs and the temp drops to like 50 degrees.

That essential is water injection. water is a deterent to knock so therfor you can run more boost/timing with it...but there is a slight compromise. water also deters effective combustion..so you will compromise some hp to gain hp through other means. But WI is mostly a plus. ^_^

so the coolingmist kit is high quality?

awesome to hear such good words about the kit. i have the same kit (coolingmist.com), and it's been partially installed for the past few months... now, i need to get outside and hook it up :D

Rickyh: What are you using as a reservoir for the water? I would love to see some pics of your setup, too.

I am using a 3 gallon fuel cell that I got off of ebay for 75 bux. It is exactly like the one in this link but it is red (click me for fuel cell) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7954566785&category=33556) I have it strapped down in the trunk, with the pump mounted behind the back seat. Then it was simply a matter of routing the wires. I have a switch mounted near the ashtray to turno the whole setup off and on. the kit came with a pressure switch and a led that lights up when the pump starts spraying. I put the light next to the pullout cupholder. I would take pics, but I need a new cable to transfer em to my computer. My dog chewed my old one up. I am very pleased with the whole kit. It was very reasonably priced, has lots of options, and I emailed the guy several times with different questions and he was really quick with his replies.

I'm putting the 1d Aquamist on my 2.5 hybrid. It is basically on / off over a certain boost. The next step is 2d? that is tied to the duty cycle. Or other.

I am using a 3 gallon fuel cell that I got off of ebay for 75 bux. It is exactly like the one in this link but it is red (click me for fuel cell) (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7954566785&category=33556) I have it strapped down in the trunk, with the pump mounted behind the back seat. Then it was simply a matter of routing the wires. I have a switch mounted near the ashtray to turno the whole setup off and on. the kit came with a pressure switch and a led that lights up when the pump starts spraying. I put the light next to the pullout cupholder. I would take pics, but I need a new cable to transfer em to my computer. My dog chewed my old one up. I am very pleased with the whole kit. It was very reasonably priced, has lots of options, and I emailed the guy several times with different questions and he was really quick with his replies.

thanks for the info on the container.

did it come with the a pickup/fitting to flow the water to the pump or did you have to rig something separately? a fuel cell looks to be a great way to store the water, but i'm pretty unfamiliar with them.

when you buy it he will give you a choice of the fittings. two are some sort of AN fittings, the other is a 5/16ths push in fitting that is the perfect size. you just have to drill a hole in the top of the cell and push the fitting in. the fuel cell itself is made of a hard plastic. It is damn near impossible to break unless you beat it with a sledgehammer. I just got 4 eye hooks and two thick rubber straps with s hooks on em, and strapped it down in the passenger side of the trunk. it is easy to fill up cuz the opening in the top of the cell is almost big enough to put your fist in. 3 gallons is an awful lot of water. I figure it should last at least 3 weeks or so.

awesome info.

now, i have to get the significant other to let me spend the funds...

So with this there is no need for a IC sprayer then?

RickyH,

Which of the kits did you get?

IMO, 3 gallons is overkill (~18lbs of water weight) unless you're doing road racing or only want to refill it every 4 gas fillups or something. *shrug* Not looking to start an argument. Looks good!

I have the snowperformance kit. Very good kit. Extremely high power pump, 200psi. I have the controller set for 7psi and 14psi. I used the stock windshield washer fluid tank. A float gauge has been inserted about 3/4 the way down and an quick-release fitting at the very bottom to feed the pump. The pump is mounted below the battery, upside-down, in the fender well. Pretty slick if you ask me. There are two LEDs (float gauge warning and pump activation) and an on/off switch mounted in the empty slot to the left of the dash cupholder.

abi I got the deluxe single stage kit

jblaine it is rather a large amount of water, but I am paranoid that I will run
out. so I went a bit overboard :lol: :lol:


wcbjr I like the idea of a float to monitor the water level. I may try to rig
something up with a fuel gauge or something similar.

Call up snowperformance.net and buy a gauge. Very simple to setup.

With a non 2d setup, you have to watch out for part-throttle full-boost situations. You will be spraying full water at non full load. You will misfire.

I've been running WI on my wrx for over 2 years now. With an aquamist kit running a .8mm nozzle size I can go through 5+ tanks of fuel and not run out of water on a 1 gallon tank. This is with fast driving on hwy and streets. Any type of track use or road tuning will drastically change those numbers.

nice thread. Cali peeps should really look into this. wi is an affordable way to help counteract cali's piss punp gas

wcbjr there is a slight hesitation sometimes when it first turns on. usually around 4500. I pretty sure I can tune around it. It really isn't bad at all. I don't think anyone else riding with me would be able to notice when it happens. It doesn't bog or lurch.

So you need EM for this to be effective.

And what it is is when the water turns to heat it absorbs alot of heat, reducing intake charge temps drastically and allowing for more boost. I'm not all the way stupid...just half stupid....on my moms side.

I haven't put the setup on yet but here is some info. The thread assumes people are kind of familiar with it. But I got it in the stead of headers.

Water injection in proven power (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=661586) Jeff Sponaugle at pdx.

Aquamist system at pdxtuning (http://www.pdxtuning.com/aquamist.htm)

Catalog and prices (http://www.pdxtuning.com/aquamist_pricelist.htm)
We have 92 Octane in OR, I got tired of putting in toluene, to protect against detonation.

I have UTEC on top of an EcuTek

now you got me thinking about WI... :furious:...making me spend even more money on my car with my broke college student budget....

If I wanted to use WI with EcuTek EM how would that work?

AlucardR
I THINK they would want to dyno tune for it.

Mine is in the box still. I've heard it is the latest and greatest. Been around since the 50's though. Actually Since WWII when they were using big turbos and nitrous on planes and needed to get the heat down.

If I wanted to use WI with EcuTek EM how would that work?

It's very easy, except you don't ever want to run out of water. We cannot switch between maps, say from one with water to one without water.

A 2d system which hooks up to the injector drivers is the easiest way. Hook up the pump, tank, nozzle, wire in your driver and any LEDs and whatnot, that's it.

If I wanted to use WI with EcuTek EM how would that work?

Here is the PDXTuning solution to this - ECUTek only + water injection:

Tune the ECU for maximum performance and drivability in low boost no water conditions with normal tuning strategies - optimized timing and appropriate AF ratios. Depending on the engine AF ratios on boost are rarely leaner than 11.5:1 and more commonly low 11s to high 10's. The exception is that some wrx's need richer AFs to make power and keep EGTS in check.

On boost and with the water on you must tune much leaner to actually gain power from water. In other words, a properly tuned subaru with the simple addition of water with no additional tuning will lose power. Optimized AFs with water approach 12:1 on boost. We tune this area of the map to target these AFs.

However, the inherent problem is that this is MUCH too lean if the water happens to stop for some reason. The elegant solution is to use an aquamist system with a flow sensor. With these systems a fault in the water flow can be triggered to disable the boost solenoid. In other words... if the water stops the car runs wastegate pressure and defaults to the non-water portion of the tuned ECU.

Everyone here at PDXTuning is addicted to water.... my STi/FP green can run 1.6 bar from torque peak to redline with 12:1 AF at torque peak tapering to 11.7:1 at redline. Timing is pretty aggressive too with 26 to 28 degrees at redline and teens at torque peak. Yes, it feels VERY lively. I use to run 20% toluene just to run this kind of timing. Now i run water and 92 pump with equally aggressive timing and even leaner AFs.

Dave kindly outlined some PDXTuning posts and web site pubs on water injection above. To learn more or to order an aquamist system feel free to give us a call.

BTW - in the near future there may be other means with which end users can use water injection with ecutek tuned ecu's ;) For now, those lucky enough to have a WRX with an AF423 or AF421 ecu (most 02 WRXs) have the option two driver selectable boost maps. This feature could easily be used to enable low boost without water and higher boost with water.

971-221-7825
Bailey

A 2d system which hooks up to the injector drivers is the easiest way. Hook up the pump, tank, nozzle, wire in your driver and any LEDs and whatnot, that's it.

Some aquamist systems can disable your boost solenoid if a water flow issue is detected - see above.

We cannot switch between maps, say from one with water to one without water.

again see above :devil:

I have heard/read that introducing water into the combustion chamber causes the cylinders to expand, putting extra stress on the engine. Is this true or have I been misinformed?

misinformed.

I've been trying to tell people about w/i for years. Congrats on a good mod!!
<<<<<<<

Soon you will be helping me buddy. I think I may go this route PRIOR to a FMIC, if I bother to upgrade my IC at all :D

BTW - in the near future there may be other means with which end users can use water injection with ecutek tuned ecu's ;) For now, those lucky enough to have a WRX with an AF423 or AF421 ecu (most 02 WRXs) have the option two driver selectable boost maps. This feature could easily be used to enable low boost without water and higher boost with water.

971-221-7825
Bailey

I have one of those ECUs. In fact, I thought something was wrong with my car because I could not get over 10psi of boost. Finally, I searched the Internet for long enough to find out that my Defrost switch at WOT would enable high boost mode.

Anyways, I do not see how that switch would allow no water at low boost and water at high boost. Timing and fueling values wouldn't change, only boost levels.

I have one of those ECUs. In fact, I thought something was wrong with my car because I could not get over 10psi of boost. Finally, I searched the Internet for long enough to find out that my Defrost switch at WOT would enable high boost mode.

Anyways, I do not see how that switch would allow no water at low boost and water at high boost. Timing and fueling values wouldn't change, only boost levels.

This strategy assumes that the ecu is tuned for no water at low boost and optimized for water at high boost. Most water systems are turned on at a preset boost level. Therefoe, if you stay at low boost you stay in the part of the map tuned w/out water. At higher boost you end up in higher load areas of the map - completely separate from those at lower boost - and the timing and fuel change accordingly.

Does that clear things up?

Bailey
www.pdxtuning.com

I could see that. I have a float warning guage installed, so I have a good idea on when to stay of boost anyways.

Bailey, do you guys have replacement pumps for the Aquamist system?

I leaned things out a bit more. I am now at 19.5 psi with an a/f of 11.1. I have been able to add 3 degrees of timing everywhere over 5k with no knock. I know I have to lean it out a bit more, but I want to take it slow. I can't wait to add a second injector. I may change my plans about adding a larger intercooler, cuz it doesn't seem like it is necessary. I still have a map for no w/i, but I can't ever see myself using it anymore.

Bailey, do you guys have replacement pumps for the Aquamist system?


Sure, email sales@pdxtuning.com for a quote.

For list price see:

http://www.pdxtuning.com/aquamist_pricelist.htm

Bailey

So if I have a stage TXS stage 4 pushing 310 whp w/ a VF30 on 93 octane would a 2c aquamist system work with the utec or should I go with 2d system. How hard is it to tune for WI?
Thanks

I am in now way a great utec tuner, but what I did was I started leaning things out when the w/i turns on. then I turned up the boost 2 psi. I then added a few degrees of timing. I basically just kept leaning it out and tweaking the timing and boost. so far, no knock.

Wow this is really interesting...I had planned on doing this in a year or so, but tax return $$ is on the way. How do you tap the W/I nozzle into the system, do you have to get it welded into the I/C?

So when they say "methanol safe" at coolingmist.com for these kits. Does that mean you can be spraying methanol in there rather than water? Wouldnt that offer cooling properties along with the other obvious advantages of methanol in combustion?

*scratches chin*

as far as the injector placement, I just pulled of the big ic/throttlebody hose, drilled a hole in it, and screwed the injector in it. I guess if you wanted to you could tap the ic, but why go through the trouble.

some people do run methanol/water. they use that blue windshield washer fluid. supposedly you can get more power that way cuz the methanol is a fuel and the water supresses detonation. I am using plain water cuz I don't want to be stuck in a situation where I have to run to the store to fill up my tank.

cuz I don't want to be stuck in a situation where I have to run to the store to fill up my tank.



....and THAT is where the 12L tank that mounts behind the back seat comes into play......low pressure pump from that(built in).....to the 5L tank and HP pump where the battery WAS.....17L total.....ought to last a while :D :devil: :banana:

I was gonna get that tank, but I bought a 3 gallon fuel cell instead.

....and you're gonna run out of THAT.....????

I'm most definitly gonna do 50/50 water methy....and if you don't use distilled water anyway, you very likely will wish you did at some point in the future when the nozzle cloggs due to crap in the water and you pop the motor....

'hose water' aint gonna cut it, especially if you have 'hard' water....

I ordered the pressure switch and nozzles for a 2 stage system yesterday. I'll have one injector that switches on at 5 psi, and another that switches on at 10. :banana: :banana:

Ok uncle, you convinced me to get a couple gallons of blue windshield washer fluid and try it.

OK I hope this works as well as people are talking I am installing one on my car once we finishing screwing around looking for the best set-up.

Make sure to get the winterized fluid. I hear it is roughly 40 percent methanol.

40% methanol and 60% crap. My opinion, but I stripped everything down and saw the results.

Install a simple $5 fuel filter from Discount Auto inbetween your pump and your tank. You would be amazed at the crap that is trapped in my filter. I ran without one for the longest time and i eventually put one in. A few weeks later i checked it and there was dirt and stuff trapped in it, so definitely use one! The one i got has 1/4" barbs on both ends, so it just hooks right up inline.

Jeff

nice tip jeff.

yeah great idea. Don't you have to tune for methanal or alcohol mixx.

Yes, the alcohol will throw off your tune slightly. Tuning is recomended anyways for WI so either way you should be tuning it for wi.

Jeff

Should I wait to get an Access Tuner before I do this or will my current stage 2 map work untill it arrives? Great idea with the trunk tank.

To get the most benifit and best performance you should get a tune.

On the other hand... When I had WI on a stock setup, my fuel economy increased, and I could use 87 octane and no timing was pulled by the ECU.

This sounds amazing. I'm buying one right now!


Hell...over the period of a year it'll prolly pay for itself for the fact that you can run 87 octane for normal daily use...

update....

I am able to run 19 psi all day long with egt's under 800C. No knock. My a/f from 5k is 11.3 and moves up to 11.9 at redline, so I can still lean it out more. It loves timing. I am still being very conservative with timing. I have added 3 degrees to the base stage 4 map pretty much across the board and no knock. this is with a 2 stage setup with a 1 gph nozzle that comes on at 5 psi and a 5 gph nozzle that comes on at 10. I have a 2.3 gph nozzle that I may put in place of the 1 gallon. Right now I think tht I haven't reached teh limits of my current setup (vf39, pinks, and stock ic) The car feels great!
I am running blue winterized washer fluid from wal-mart, 94 cents a gallon. I found a msds sheet that says that it is 40% methanol.

Now i run water and 92 pump with equally aggressive timing and even leaner AFs.

Of course, 20 degrees with water injection puts the peak pressure position further back than 20 degrees without it, all things equal.

Your leaner A/F ratios should have advanced it back near the original positon with the Toluene though ... and being able to do that on 92 pumpgas without the Toluene is very nice indeed. ;) heh heh heh

Adrian~

edited for stupid typo that I just noticed ..

I found a msds sheet that says that it is 40% methanol.<
I will bet you that the other 60% is not distilled water.

I don't like putting detergents, dyes, and whatever desolved minerals are in the washer fluids in the engine. I had to use blue winter fluid in an emergency once. When I got a chance, I hcanged out the fluid and took apart the jet. The amount of blue guck in there was amazing.

Hi,
A little help here ,please. What jet size to use on a TurboXS stage 3(except I still have the stock IC) 04WRX with an Aquamist 2D sistem?
Thanks!
JJD92

hey zaxrex, I think I am going to take your advice and ditch the blue stuff. Probaly go with denatured alky and distilled.

im still somewhat of a noob to w/i but just a few questions. I see some people are going w/i instead of upgrading intercoolers, is that a good idea? also on an 04 would you need the dual stage kit for sure?

I am pretty sure a person wants to add water only with the water injection.

Then a map for pump, and one for partial race (whatever) fuel.

The alcohol actually diminish's the cooling capacity of water injection.

If that is wrong, - let me know.

as far as the combustion chamber goes, why is this not like running watered down gas?

it is a very fine mist that is injected, it just cools the intake charge, i believe all the water is gone by the time it reaches the chamber.

-nate

rustyzipper, if the water were in the gas the total amount of gas would be reduced by the amount of water in the gas. Less gas...less energy...less power. By injecting water post IC the total amount of fuel and water is greater than watered down gas.

Install a simple $5 fuel filter from Discount Auto inbetween your pump and your tank. You would be amazed at the crap that is trapped in my filter. I ran without one for the longest time and i eventually put one in. A few weeks later i checked it and there was dirt and stuff trapped in it, so definitely use one! The one i got has 1/4" barbs on both ends, so it just hooks right up inline.

Jeff


super nice tip there dude.. i will do the same with my coolingmist kit.. i order the in line filter but it looks "whimpy"

nice..
phamster