http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101817

The Next Big Thing? Automakers rush to meet all-wheel drive demand

"All-wheel drive is the industry's newest "gotta have it" equipment, and it is about to get hotter. CSM Worldwide in Farmington Hills, Mich., forecasts that North American automakers will build 1.96 million awd vehicles annually by the end of this decade. That's up from about 1.06 million units this year. And that doesn't include a separate wave of imported awd vehicles."

Subaru needs to stay ahead of the curve, the imports have slowly added AWD models over the years, but nothing in the Subaru price range. Things could get ugly if the mainstream domestic and import companies start offering it...

-B

They have to put VDC in all of the cars. Telescopic steering wheel, memory seats and mirrors. HIDs as an option. Steering wheel audio controls on all models.

I've noticed that trend also...it could only hurt subaru...
Everything coming out has AWD. The brain trust at FHI better start some thinnin...

I definitely agree. In fact, there are already products available or planned that directly target Subaru's awd car niche:
Ford Five Hundred - high volume and awd
Dodge Caliber (neon replacement) - High volume and awd (and essentially the next gen lancer)

The key is not that these are better cars than Subaru's offerings. It is that they will sell a lot more than Subaru's offerings whether they are good or not and being AWD will dilute the importance of subaru as a niche manufacturer of awd cars

besides the Dodge Caliber srt-4 is teh f4s73r

which direction do you think subaru should take?
compete more with cadillac, lexus, audi?
more performance oriented? (ok, that might more wishful thinking on my part)
???

which direction do you think subaru should take?
compete more with cadillac, lexus, audi?
more performance oriented? (ok, that might more wishful thinking on my part)
???

It might no be too wishful. Perhaps Subaru can further distinguish themselves with giving ALL of their cars more of a performance edge than they already have. Luxury is not the way to go IMO.

-faast

i am guessing that they knew about this trend, so are going with bold styling to set them apart, hence the b9X tribeca front end styling.

i see it a different way, i guess i dont see how a higher demand for all wheel drive from the general buying public is really a bad thing for subaru. more competition is always a better thing.

edit - btw i posted this article an hour ago in the proper thread

Subaru needs to focus on the one feature that no other mainstream AWD car has (or will have), and that is the boxer engine.

As we all know, there are many advantages to the boxer engine, foremost being the lower center of gravity which results in superior handling and more fun to drive. Subaru will need to do a better job of "selling" the boxer engine concept, and as to why it is superior to other engine configurations, and especially why it is better for AWD cars.

Bob

It might no be too wishful. Perhaps Subaru can further distinguish themselves with giving ALL of their cars more of a performance edge than they already have. Luxury is not the way to go IMO.

-faast

Make all of their car high-performance, yet luxurious at the same time. Why must it be one or the other?

also most of the other AWD aren't full time... it makes the car handle like crap... well... at least in the snow its terrible...

Make all of their car high-performance, yet luxurious at the same time. Why must it be one or the other?

They could do that, but how many people will pay for a Subaru that provide both of these features? Most people still associate the brand Subaru with econoboxes.

As the saying goes:

- High Performance
- Luxury
- Low Price

Choose two.

To the general buying public awd is awd. Telling them that subaru is better because it's full time or VDC won't really matter.

I think the push to premium + performance at a slightly higher price is the right way to go. I compared the Freestyle to the B9 and once you add AWD to the freestyle and all the options that you get on the B9 you get a price just a couple grand less than where the B9 will probably start for a 7pax version (keep in mind these are using the probable prices that have been thrown around for the B9). The B9 is definatly worth the extra money.

We shall see a Ford 500 on WRC.

which direction do you think subaru should take?
compete more with cadillac, lexus, audi?
more performance oriented? (ok, that might more wishful thinking on my part)
???

I don't think it's wishful thinking on your part, I think performance may be the best way to go, but not just performance (look at the MR, while Mitsu is on the verge of bankruptcy), it has to have image, quality, reliability, comfort, and a certain quasi-luxury.

They can distinguish themselves, look at Porsche, started out rally racing, became a performance brand. Subaru has an amazing rally heritage, they can capitalize on that (so long as we don't start seeing Chevy Cobalts in WRC).

I agree that going upscale is only part of the solution, sure the Tribeca and the nicer Legacy/Outbacks help, but they can' rely on that, they need to do one thing and do it really well. It used to be reliable awd quirky cars, that's changing, they need to find something new to capitalize on.

As Bob said, it's the only one with the Boxer, so maybe handling or agility can be a sales factor.

Just my opinion,
Nawar

I think, at least here in the Northwest, Subaru has a pretty good niche. I think the majority of folks who buy one here do so not only for the awd, but for the "outdoorsy" vibe that Subaru gives off -- a lot of their cars are made to go off the beaten path a bit (higher ground clearence, bigger tires, that plastic "body armor" looking stuff on the Outback models, etc), which is great for our area. I think of they start concentrating on the luxury factor, they will lose a lot of their core buyers. Back when Subaru was "revived", it was due largely to the Outback lineup of vehicles - go almost anywhere on the weekend, drive around quite comfortably on the weekdays. I think if they stick with that approach, and emphasize their performance line up a bit more, they will be OK.

Realistically, I don't see the Ford 500 competing with a Legacy just because they're both AWD.

AWD as a selling point comes & goes over the years. Larger OEM's think a lotta people want it and start offering it in thier products. Then the demand wanes and they pull it from thier products and leave it to 'niche' OEMs to fill the demand. Look at how many SUV's actually have 4WD or AWD and you'll see it isn't a very popular option.

Subaru was had a flash of relative brilliance when they went all AWD at a time when larger OEM's were staying away; it kept them alive, but now desire for AWD is on an upswing (or peaking) and it isn't as much a distinguishing characteristic anymore. I think Subaru realized this with its push into more luxurious brands, but AWD and luxury is a very small market, one that won't meed thier financial needs I think.

So long as Subaru doesn't go overboard trying to expand into new markets like luxury, it will weather the current demand for AWD and emerge stronger.

Tom

I figured that was why Subaru started referring to their setup as "Symetrical" AWD. It's the same setup they've always had, but the new name is there to make it sound like their technology is different and better than the upcoming competition's.

Make all of their car high-performance, yet luxurious at the same time. Why must it be one or the other?

Alright well then just add $5k+ to the price of every Subaru out there and you'll have performance and luxury. Subaru isn't a luxury brand, never has been and SHOULD never be. If you want a luxury import go buy something German.

-faast

The general public really is not that bright. Look at how commercials try to sell things. So, I agree that AWD is AWD to the masses.

One thing that is constant is that there are people that just use a car to get from A to B. Subaru did very well in this niche, just look at their reputation. Cheap, rugged, basic, good value. They have made a complete shift in the last 5 years or so. There may be more profit in the "luxury" cars but, it costs a lot more to sell them and they have more problems. Look at the Subaru marketing cost per vehicle for the last 10 years. It will be interesting to see how the next few years play out.

I like the B9 and all, but with a base of 38ish, you can really get a lot more for that. Plus I will not pay 40 for a car, that is just me. To each his own.

I love my GT but, between the HG "issue", the wind noise, the clutch, the sycronizers/trans, I do not see the old Subaru dependability. Put money back into engineering not marketing.

Peace,

Greg

I think they definitely should not bail out on the "outdoorsy" aspect of there line-up, but now should focus more on the performance part. Everyone on this board knows what subaru's are capable of, but the general public is JUST starting to see that. I agree, stay away from luxury and stay focused on the 'outdoorsy' and step up the 'perfarmance' aspect of it.

Forget more performance or luxury, the market is already full.

FHI should push Subaru to build hybrid or more eco-friendly cars at a reasonnable price. Offering a "green" alternative on every model could help them lure new clients.

All they have to do is to take their technological sharing agreement with Toyota and exploit it as much as possible.

I like fast Subarus as much as anybody, but in the end, being able to push my car to 200 mph doesn't matter in day to day driving experience. Sure, I like quick acceleration and top speed, but at some point, energy consumption becomes more important.

Forget more performance or luxury, the market is already full.

FHI should push Subaru to build hybrid or more eco-friendly cars at a reasonnable price. Offering a "green" alternative on every model could help them lure new clients.

All they have to do is to take their technological sharing agreement with Toyota and exploit it as much as possible.

I like fast Subarus as much as anybody, but in the end, being able to push my car to 200 mph doesn't matter in day to day driving experience. Sure, I like quick acceleration and top speed, but at some point, energy consumption becomes more important.

A wise man speaks wise words... ;)

Absolutely

I would believe that it depends on where your are looking at. "green" vehicles would be nice from Subaru but then again, notice how they are working on luxury at this poitn. ie. 05 legacy, the B9. Subaru's already have performance and AWD, their gas milage isnt bad considering the 2.5rs can get up to 29-30 mpg. Spending the money to build new engines with toyota technology would be more expensive compared to adding leather seats, softer ride, better sound deadening, Better stereo, etc... Subaru is smart to release the simple perfomance rally car first at a decent price just to get its name out there, more people are seeing subaru on the roads. The RS is a good first car, parents go to dealership and also see a nice Luxury vehicle for a nice price and hey, maybe walk off the lot with two cars. In the end, it will be really really hard to fight in the luxury line since its all Brand name there. If you have the money to buy a Benz and the Lexus is still better and less costly, people here usually go for the benz, it has the name. Buying a luxury vehicle at a Subaru dealership feels like your going to someones garage to buy stereo equipment. The ambiance of a Benz dealer is totally different. I know, I used to own one.

All in all, I say good luck subaru, they should concentrate on the people buying the camery's and the accords, cause those are the most common cars out here at least.

To the general buying public awd is awd. Telling them that subaru is better because it's full time or VDC won't really matter. _mo_

I agree with mo. On another note, Isuzu was selling so many Rodeos in the middle 90's. Then it seemed like every manufacturer that made SUV's introduced a couple more, and manufacturers that didnt make SUV's started to (porsche, cadilac, ect...). Then the writing was on the wall for Isuzu. Subaru will find themselves in the same position soon. Going upscale and improving performance and styling is something that can only help Subaru stand out in a more crowded market.

Didn't Subaru already change tactics from its AWD ad's to "It's what's inside" ad's referring to all the turbo charging they are doing to each model line-up? So not only do all of their cars have full time AWD but now there are 4 models with turbocharged motors in them.

I definitely agree. In fact, there are already products available or planned that directly target Subaru's awd car niche:
Ford Five Hundred - high volume and awd
Dodge Caliber (neon replacement) - High volume and awd (and essentially the next gen lancer)

The key is not that these are better cars than Subaru's offerings. It is that they will sell a lot more than Subaru's offerings whether they are good or not and being AWD will dilute the importance of subaru as a niche manufacturer of awd cars

besides the Dodge Caliber srt-4 is teh f4s73r
Dodge Rebel (http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/rebel.html)? Caliber?

Intresting . . .

The Dodge Rebel is being designed by Chrysler and Mitsubishi engineers. While both are working together on a common platform, the final cars will be different in character. In North America and Europe, the Chrysler version will reportedly be used, even when sold under the Mitsubishi name. In Asia, the Middle East, and South America, the Mitsubishi version will reportedly be used, even when sold under the Dodge name. The Dodge and Mitsuibshi versions will have unique interiors and exteriors and different suspension tuning when sold in the same market.

Subaru is effed.
AFAIK, the company started out with a concept of a "driver oriented" car that delivered good performance and handling for a decent price. That's what I think they need to go back to and not the B9 kind of crap. With that car, you're technically going into the awd minivan/toyota highlander market, which is on it's way down anyway. B9 is a mistake, dropping the TS wagon is another mistake. WRX, STI, new Legacy are the right things, Subaru should stick with them. Maybe introduce another car similar to the old RS. Small, light, with a powerful engine.
Also, as someone has already pointed out, FHI should put more money into improving the design (HG, transmission issues), rather than marketing.
I don't like the direction FHI is going in, both with the style and the luxury direction. Nobody (at least in the US) will ever put Subaru and high priced/luxury car in the same sentence.
Why did Honda come out with a whole new Acura brand just for the North American market? Because it wouldn't be able to sell a $40-50K Honda.
Same thing here.

Good points all. The "boxer" thing, IMO is not a mass market play. Yes, it's a flat four (or six) but that makes the CoG of the car what? An inch lower maybe? You don't see Porsche pushing their boxer engines as a sales point - they stick with image and performance.

I do think there needs to be a more upmarket Legacy - as I said in another thread, a Legacy built to Acura features level, with HID, nav, etc., etc. Start with the Euro 3.0R and go up from there. Plus, they HAVE to do something about emissions and mileage. Given the price of gas stays high (which looks very likely), people will look for fuel efficient vehicles, and Honda et al, will play up their ultra low emissions and Hybrids - and Subaru already lags on the mileage stats. There's a real issue in my book as to whether FHI has the commitment, the deep pockets and the engineering expertise to produce a high power, high efficiency, "ultra clean" version of their power units.

Right now, for example, the turbo Subarus are a lot of fun, but they use more gas than they should, and are not as clean as they should be. Time to fix them - or go outside for a state of the art engine rework. After all, Toyota uses Yamaha for this kind of basic engineering all the time.

I think subaru should continue with their current performance/price package. And if they want to make themselves more known, improve on quality without affecting the price too much (like getting rid of all rattles, or smoother transmision)

boxer, turbo, awd,... its all part of the performance offered.

I figured that was why Subaru started referring to their setup as "Symetrical" AWD. It's the same setup they've always had, but the new name is there to make it sound like their technology is different and better than the upcoming competition's.


Yeah, but how can Symetrical AWD from subaru compare to Honda/Acura's new Super Handeling AWD? :rolleyes:

Yeah, but how can Symetrical AWD from subaru compare to Honda/Acura's new Super Handeling AWD? :rolleyes:

its available in vehicles that cost less than $40k.

now only if there was 2billon cars that where AWD, and NAWZZZ....hopefully the next srt4 will be that hawt..ill buy one if i get drunk enougf and have that kind of money laying in my savings acoutn

I agree with those that think going upscale won't help subaru at all. I bought my Baja (which I love) for 19.5k which was a great deal, if it had been a lot more I wouldn't have bought it no matter how much crap they loaded it up with. Similarly my brother and his wife were seriously considering a new Outback wagon but for either the turbo or H6 it was going to be 30k+ so they bought a Saturn Vue, fully loaded and with a V6, for around 25k. The people in Utah who love Subarus generally love to ski, camp, hike, bike, etc. The subaru is a great tool to get where they're going but they aren't going to shell out a bunch of money for one, that's money earmarked for ski passes, etc.

Subaru also has to compete with the honda element, the xterra and a bunch of other low priced SUVs. People who want a audi or volvo or mercedes are not going to give Subaru a second look no matter how "nice" they are inside.

I vote for a less nice subaru, lose the carpet and give it a rubber floor you can hose down and bombproof seating surfaces.

I also second the hybrid idea. A hybrid outback would rule the world. Given Subaru's already impressive gas mileage, they could do wonders adding hybrid technology.

my two cents
Jp

I think that a company that has decades of AWD experience behind it will have an advantage. All the new comers will be playing catch up. I think it becomes apparent when the customer gets behind the wheel and takes a test drive, there are many intangilbes that come together to make a rewarding driving experience.

The marketing department should be able to come up with something to leverage that.

Subaru will grow but I think they will continue to be a small and successful player.

its available in vehicles that cost less than $40k.


sorry, i was being sarcastic

They have to put VDC in all of the cars. Telescopic steering wheel, memory seats and mirrors. HIDs as an option. Steering wheel audio controls on all models.


I would love to have a teloscopic wheel.

They just need to bring back Crocodile Dundee as a spokesman. That guy can sell cars. :rolleyes:

Here's how they continue: 1) Keep building quality, safe, and fun to drive cars, 2) keep their WRC program going, and 3) keep sponsoring outdoor related causes and programs. There are already many options other than Subaru, and I don't think a good number of Subaru owners necessarily bought them solely due to the AWD factor.

They just need to bring back Crocodile Dundee as a spokesman. That guy can sell cars. :rolleyes:
Well, Subaru certainly increased market share more during his tenure than with Lance. So I don't know what's up with the rolleyes.

I think they should bring over the R1/R2 to fill the gas friendly slot, continue to market the outback and Forester as outdoor rugged vehicles, WRX/STI, FXT and LGT fill performance, Legacy(kinda stretching it) and B9 luxury. They can't shift mainly to performance, there isn't enough profit in it if they want to keep costs low. The same can be said about shifting to all Luxury, you have to keep a balance.

There are some good points in here. I am a Subaru die-hard and I realize that we the enthusiasts don't succeed until Subaru does, that's why we got the WRX and STi following the RS starting in 1998.

So what do they do good? Make a fun drivers car that with excellent interior ergonomics, overall are fairly reliable, have a good AWD system (though I completely agree with those that say to most people, AWD is AWD and not necessarily important), and the Legacy/OB has a pretty good style direction to it (though I would by no means consider it a shot at luxury, just good outfittings.) It's a pretty good base, but by no means will those factors alone sell cars.

I think keeping cars on par with the Legacy while adding some good options is the way to go, they can't and won't compete with luxury brands, that's a fact! Actually, I've been told SoA has been trying to tell Fuji that, but Fuji is persistant Subaru can change that image (or will die trying.)

These are all good things, but how can Subaru make itself shine? Technology and efficiency. Be a leader. There are a number of technologies (not necessarily new) that can significantly improve fuel economy, power, and performance as well as reduce cost of production, maintainence potentially, etc, etc, etc. Two such technologies, camless cylinder head technology (already shown to work up to in excess of 10,000rpm but last discussion I saw on it said computing power for the application was lacking) and cylinder pressure based engine management allow for the reduction of many sensors, cams, TGVs, throttle body, timing belt, starter motor, even cats (and other components I'm forgetting.) Also, adding direct injection would also help a good margin.

I've got to run so I'm just cutting it brief, but showing off new and capable technologies really is the way to go.

Make all of their car high-performance, yet luxurious at the same time. Why must it be one or the other?

generally, luxury adds weight...unless your talking carbon fiber and titanium :)

ohhh, good thread.

this is why i think it is important to find a very sturdy niche for subaru to fit into. if fhi can keep it's awd at the forefront of the publics percieved ability, subaru can ride out a direct attack like this.

at the same time subarus model range needs to build a real foundation of priciples giving subaru the ability to still be most desirable among people who only want awd.

if the sti can keep it's grip and respect amongst four door cars, no awd entry car will take it's prestige away.

i liken this situation to the late 90's for bmw, the 3, 5, and 7 series were all top sellers in thier category. and with thier next re-design, the 7 and 5 series departed from succesfull trademarks of design and technology. the 3 series however, evolved as most would have expected with new found dramatasizm, keepin it's early qualities that put it on top. however the 5 and 7 series have both sent bmw scrambling. with bmw "facelifting" the 7 this year, the first time dingolphing has done any significant redesign out of it's eight year model life schedule in more than 20 years.

this sends a msg to me that loyalty to buyers is important in many ways. even to people that would give up other brands. if the msg of subaru is properlly evolved and maintained as a loyal awd leader, then we should be glad that some yuppies and hicks arent buyin our cars. and instead going for another comanies awd. i

afterall, i do like owning a subaru to be a diffirent but un-arguable practice. as i see the rest of the public seeing it.

i'd like to see two ways of thinking. the upmarket move is fine with me, so long as it doesnt intrude on our performance. these should be two seperate things. we need a luxury otion package and a sports option package. with both of these packages including extensive possabilities, enough to bring any subaru model to ether side of luxury or performance or utilty. creating no-cost options would affirm subaru's role of being the worlds most easy to get into awd.

i for instance want my subaru to handle and drive nicely, soi would choose most my options from the peformance category, with some small options coming from the luxury category. the activity obsessed among subaru of course would border more on utilty options, like maybe navigation, roof racks, water proof upholstry, things like that.

i think a drastic change like this is just what subaru could use. it is gaining very much momentum with the sales in the scion area of things. the cars are mostly ugly (the tc aint bad) but since the can package together a variety of options at little to no price increase, people can get the car the actually want for a good deal. and if you can put the car a customer truely wants in front of him, a sale is all but assured.

In my opinion Subaru just needs to promote in their advertising campaigns ie. magazine, newspaper, tv commercials that they've offered AWD as standard on every model since the mid 90s and that you don't have to pay extra to have it on your car when you buy a Subaru. This way the non-knowing public who does no research will know that a Subaru is a proven AWD car and others are using it as new technology on their models that have been out for years.

In my opinion Subaru just needs to promote in their advertising campaigns ie. magazine, newspaper, tv commercials that they've offered AWD as standard on every model since the mid 90s and that you don't have to pay extra to have it on your car when you buy a Subaru. This way the non-knowing public who does no research will know that a Subaru is a proven AWD car and others are using it as new technology on their models that have been out for years.

Hey, I have an idea - why don't we change the catchphrase to reflect these qualities - maybe something like, "The Beauty of All Wheel Drive". Wow. That sounds good. Unlike some generic phrase like, oh I dunno "Driven By What's Inside", it actually conveys some useful information about the brand, and with AWD become more popular, maybe people would get the impression that Subaru was one of the pioneers of AWD vehicles.

Think. Feel. Drive. Subaru

Think. Feel. Drive. Subaru

Except in their infinite wisdom SOA decided not to use that, for some reason.

subaru needs to be careful with the whole perfomance and luxury thing. as someone else mentioned, nobody will be willing ti pay premium for the brand regardless of the performance. Just ask Mazda and Toyota. The RX-7 and Supra were amazing cars, but costly, and there was no "prestige" in their name. The B9 will be almost 40k which can get you a BMW or Merc in your driveway and help you keep up with the jones'.

Subaru needs to do something like what mazda has been doing. Market the fun aspect of their cars. the WRX/STi are amazingly fun cars to drive, yet you almost never see commercials advertising that fact. Remember the Civic Si commercials that ran in theaters a few years back? Subaru needs stuff like that. They should also invest time in getting WRC more known. They have this great rally heritage that few seem to know about.

basically, they need to go with their strengths, fun sporty cars that can be driven all year, and have a great racing heritage

^^^^^^ what GR said.

i especially agree with the point he made about madza.

Subaru just needs to keep making AWD affordable. Everyone else has it as a last option and it makes all of their cars very expensive.

As for performance, the Subaru turbo's are more powerful then anything else in the price range. Keep the price down and fight the new AWD with affordable AWD. When everyone see's a Subaru AWD (which Subaru is known for) that costs a couple to several $1000 less than an AWD xxxxxxxxx they will come in looking at the Subaru. Just like you would go to a Jeep dealer if you were looking for a Off Road 4x4. Almost nobody thinks Mazda and Off Road 4x4. Just the same when you say AWD you think Subaru not Kia not BMW not Lexus.

Everyone offering AWD just means AWD is better and AWD means Subaru. But Subaru needs some nice looking cars otherwise people will go off and buy a 300 or a Mazda 6. If they look better they will buy the nice car instead of the Ugly Tribeca like car. Let us just hope Subaru figures out that nice cars look nice from the front end too.

Fix the lights, give a broad colour choice and keep the prices down. If done Subaru will sell lots of cars. And if everyone is thinking AWD is good then they will be thinking Subaru is good.

From the looks of things, it seems that Subaru has a lot riding on the Tribeca, and I wish them a lot of luck with it, granted that I just remembered that all of Subaru's hard work will be stolen by Saab and Saturn.

Perhaps deciding to give a variant of the Tribeca to poor Saab wasn't so bad, since not even Saab-brand drinking water in the Sahara desert would be a hot seller, but what the hell was Takenaka and Adcock smoking when they decided to give it to Saturn?!

For those who haven't heard yet, Saturn is on a gigantic rebound with the Sky, Aura and a possible version of the Opel Astra GTC. Their last concepts showed a significant increase in attention to design and quality. If their version of the Tribeca looks anything like the Sky and the Aura, along with a price tag starting with the number 2, Subaru is royally screwed.

Even loyal Subaru owners will defect to buy the Saturn Tribeca if the price is right since the mechanicals are virtually the same, and this will cost Subaru dearly in brand image, dealer relations- not to mention that the auto rags will give GM credit for this one.


After the fact, perhaps we'll hear the corporate spin, that although the Tribeca is selling under Saturn's name, Subaru is still making money, yadda yadda yadda...

Yeah, they'll be money at the expense of brand image and dealer relations as I mentioned above. A shortsighted, Flintstone-style plan to make money, just like something GM would do. :rolleyes:

Whoever made that numbnut decision should be fired from FHI, and if GM coaxed them into this, than Takenaka or another member of the board should make them remember that their partnership is only at the will of FHI and can be terminated anytime.

So what do they do good? Make a fun drivers car that with excellent interior ergonomics, overall are fairly reliable, have a good AWD system (though I completely agree with those that say to most people, AWD is AWD and not necessarily important), and the Legacy/OB has a pretty good style direction to it (though I would by no means consider it a shot at luxury, just good outfittings.) It's a pretty good base, but by no means will those factors alone sell cars.

I think keeping cars on par with the Legacy while adding some good options is the way to go, they can't and won't compete with luxury brands, that's a fact! Actually, I've been told SoA has been trying to tell Fuji that, but Fuji is persistant Subaru can change that image (or will die trying.)25 years ago, BMW still had this image but was making plans to move away from it. They made premium cars.. with very few frills. How did they do it? They created the first sports sedans... practical cars that drove and felt like sports cars. Their customers kept requesting gadgets though, so they kept incorporating them.. then they reached the ultimate compromise.. iDrive. Without cluttering up the driver's view with all the crap a driver's car doesn't need, they still allowed the gadgetphiles to access all the auto-navi-clime-dvd-dolby options they wanted. Unfortunately their clientele hated it. BMW guys who love driver's cars are all driving older models because BMW stopped catering to them. I think BMW is leaving behind a huge market gap that they created.

I would like nothing more than to see Subaru fill that void, and it irks me when people say that you cannot build a premium car without including the kitchen sink. If Subaru wants to step up to the plate and build driver's cars like BMW refuses to (and I strongly believe that they are the ONLY car company on the planet capable of that right now), I think that they'll find themselves facing BMW's dilemma.. forge ahead with what got you world renown for, or give into your aging clientele.

Premium and luxury are two different things. Premium is a level of quality.. luxury is a state of mind.

As for performance, the Subaru turbo's are more powerful then anything else in the price range.
.


I hate to do it but...... TeH SrT-4 Is Teh FaSTAr!!111!!!!!!

but really, SRT-4 puts out higher numbers and costs less.

their safe too you must rember thats a BIG seller. the new drivers need safe cars, the 2.5 rs is same price as a corola or somthing so they need to sell safty, durability, and perfromance. and if you look at it who wouldnt want all of those things? acura says they have the best awd in the world subaru needs to prove em wrong! :devil:

It might no be too wishful. Perhaps Subaru can further distinguish themselves with giving ALL of their cars more of a performance edge than they already have. Luxury is not the way to go IMO.

-faast
Yeah, I still don't see too many people who want luxury looking Subaru's way. Cutting edge performance is where the secret lies.

No matter what some ignorant fanboys and even some short-sighted Subaru "fans" say, the Legacy is a fine competitor to the 5-Series. Even the South African and the Australian auto press agree that it's the true successor to the E39, a no-nonsense sports sedan without superfluous frills. Not to mention the uncanny interior design resemblance :)


Since the Legacy was so successful, they should realign their lineup into creating cars comparable to BMW at a fraction of the price.

Impreza- 3 Series (bring it back to its roots, upgrade the interior)
Forester- X3 (in the vein of the Tribeca but four-banger and smaller)
Tribeca- X5 (it probably will drive like one, too bad it costs as much as one)
R3 (1300cc R2)- Mini Cooper


And damn it Subaru of America, nobody will know how good your cars are if nobody knows that they exist! Would it hurt to advertise during the Super Bowl or during programs people actually watch?

BMW guys who love driver's cars are all driving older models because BMW stopped catering to them. I think BMW is leaving behind a huge market gap that they created.

It may be a fine competitor to the 5 series. But, you can not go from Subaru hetitage to BMW competitor overnight. Look at how BMW's evolved. Look at all the steps from the classic 80's bimmers to the current. This last generation has most of the die hard fans POed, but still watch the progression.

Subaru is using GM marketing people to try to change their image over night. They are courting the crowd that changes cars faster than underwear. It is a costly demographic to deal with. Look at Mitu's and VW's numbers. The Phateon (sp?) and W8 Passat were really big hits........ You watch Subies sales number go on a roller coster ride while they have this mind set.

AWD is great, the subies dynamics are great also. Not BMW great but great all the same. They need to keep inovating that is what made them what they are today. Nich or no nich, they were great bang for the buck. Now, that has all changed.

Cut marketing budget, increase engineering budget = very happy and loyal customers.

Peace,

Greg

G**, I hope they are not using GM's marketing - come to think of it, they can't be - no $10,000 cash back offers out there - which there already are on the C6. And no "mad max" styling, a la CTS.

BMW took their market upscale, 'cos up scale means up price, and up price means up profits. The most profitable auto company in the world is Porsche - and while their cars are great, most buyers will never find that out, they just love the idea of owning one.

Mazda is an interesting case. They were going to launch an upscale division - Amati, and the Xedos (929 US) was to be the first example, but they did not do that. I guess after Toyota was successful with Lexus, and Nissan was not with Infiniti, they chickened out.

Subaru has good engineering and reliability, and maybe Saab as an upmarket brand for them is good, not bad. I for one believe that the new 9-3 and 9-5 would have been much better cars built off the Legacy platform rather than the Opel platform. At least they would have has some value add (like AWD) instead of being restyled Opels/Vauxhalls. Oh, and in turbo form, some get up and go as well. Maybe Saab could have persuaded Subaru to drop the 6 speed behind the 2.5LGT powerplant as a base "9 series" package.

It may be a fine competitor to the 5 series. But, you can not go from Subaru hetitage to BMW competitor overnight. Look at how BMW's evolved. Look at all the steps from the classic 80's bimmers to the current. This last generation has most of the die hard fans POed, but still watch the progression.



i agree that technical innovation is still te most important, but evolution of technology is important too. transmisions need to be up to date, they are currently years behind in technology.

if subarus cars dont start to reflect the state of business they are in things shouldnt be as god for them under this awd challenge. subaru is one of the most loyal buyer based car companies in the world. thats undisputible, it's my opinion that all buyers want to feel loyalty from thier preferred car brand. once a consumer is convinced a car fills thier needs it's over.

subaru must remain loyal to it's cars, as porche and other companies have made a name for. if that is done the evolution of subaru will follow it's buyers. building comletly different cars wont get other people to buy subarus, building for subaru drivers, will get you more.

fhi must understand how important we drivers value subaru's handling characteristics, and mechanical grip. if he uses this idea as a base, a base that is ultimatly what subaru represents, people will flock to subaru for the sheer reason that it stands alone as a loyal brand.

now if only the dealers would listen too.

It might no be too wishful. Perhaps Subaru can further distinguish themselves with giving ALL of their cars more of a performance edge than they already have. Luxury is not the way to go IMO.

-faast


I agree... I don't want a car that turns on the wipers when it's raining, or turns up the radio volume as I pick-up speed... I KNOW how and WHEN to do that! I want a car that knows what I want from it and delivers. Period. When the car responds like you expect, who needs heated seats?

I figured that was why Subaru started referring to their setup as "Symetrical" AWD. It's the same setup they've always had, but the new name is there to make it sound like their technology is different and better than the upcoming competition's.




They are different,most other brands are transverse mounted drivetrains with different axle lengths and sizes.Subaru does'nt have a left or right axle they are the same,just the front and rear are different from each other.With equal length axles you get a smoother ride and better power transfer to the wheels.I don't think there's to many other vehicles out there like this and there's no torque steer pull under acceleration like you get with most transverse mounted drivetrains.

I think they should at least change that stupid
"Driven by what's inside" slogan. OK...correct me if I am wrong, but isn't first thing in marketing slogan is tells customer an image/concept that the customer will remember?
Driven by what's inside doesn't tell anything...the customer doesn't know what's inside so it certainly doesn't sway customer in buying subaru. BMW has a much better one: ultimate driving machine. BMW trying to tell the customer their car is the best driving machine and this is the right way to market a product. Whoever comes up with the Driven by what's inside needs to be fired. IMO, their slogan should be "AWD Bimmer Beater". It is bold because it can beat the ultimate driving machine in the same price range.

The Acura TL should be AWD by '07 = teh hottness

25 years ago, BMW still had this image but was making plans to move away from it. They made premium cars.. with very few frills....

I would like nothing more than to see Subaru fill that void, and it irks me when people say that you cannot build a premium car without including the kitchen sink....

Premium and luxury are two different things. Premium is a level of quality.. luxury is a state of mind.

You seemed to have said EVERYTHING FHI is hoping for. Add to that the increasing demand of AWD, and the one and only image Subaru has successfully established over the years, namely the maker of AWD, it might not be an untterly impossible goal. Very unlikely, but not impossible. At least they have the first step right, with WRX and STi, offering THE driver's cars this side of $40k.

Also, Subaru might be able to get a free lunch from this AWD frenzy, at least for a while. To general public, you sell image not engineering. If marketing done right, Subaru might be able to convince a lot of people that the good old VC symmetric AWD is better than more advanced, more expensive offerings from other companies, simply because people more easily associate AWD with Subaru than any other makes.

If Subaru wants to sell more cars in the world. They have to give up the idea only selling AWD cars. Instead of following the foot step of Honda, Toyota and other Japanese manufacture, Subaru should make the rear wheel drive and awd. If Subaru does, Subaru is the only import auto company produce the rear wheel drive cars for around $20,000 canadian dollars. (3 thousands less than AWD model). I really think the idea will work. cheers. :)

If Subaru wants to sell more cars in the world. They have to give up the idea only selling AWD cars.I think the gist of the original post is that more manufacturers are beginning to offer AWD. Why? Because they recognize consumer demand for AWD is higher now than it's ever been. So, it appears a significant part of the market is coming around to Subaru's point of view on AWD - and you think Subaru should abandon its all models AWD strategy? Doesn't every one of the marques beginning to offer AWD also already offer 2WD?

']I think the gist of the original post is that more manufacturers are beginning to offer AWD. Why? Because they recognize consumer demand for AWD is higher now than it's ever been. So, it appears a significant part of the market is coming around to Subaru's point of view on AWD - and you think Subaru should abandon AWD?

I do not think you read my quote carefully. I did not say abandon AWD, but add RWD to their line up. The Subaru mechanical layout is easy to change to RWD.

If you look at all japanese import cars now, only expensive models come with RWD. It may not be a bad idea for Subaru to introduce entry level RWD models. Keep in mind, not everyone wants AWD. That is a matter of fact.

']I think the gist of the original post is that more manufacturers are beginning to offer AWD. Why? Because they recognize consumer demand for AWD is higher now than it's ever been. So, it appears a significant part of the market is coming around to Subaru's point of view on AWD - and you think Subaru should abandon its all models AWD strategy? Doesn't every one of the marques beginning to offer AWD also already offer 2WD?

Thank you Jon. I was about to respond with similar comments, but you beat me to the punch. :)

Bob

Thank you Jon. I was about to respond with similar comments, but you beat me to the punch. :)

Bob


Thank you for comments. I am just sharing my point of view. Is it a free country? If my comments offend you guys, I am sorry. I want Subaru to sell more cars and make more profits, therefore it can produce even more desirable cars. cheers.

Thank you for comments. I am just sharing my point of view. Is it a free country?

Same here Dusty; sharing my point of view...

100% AWD is the "signature" feature that separates Subaru from every other carmaker here. You want them to give that up? Not me. Now that the rest of the world is just discovering what what Subaru knew all along, you want them to back off? Not me. You want Subaru to delute their superb AWD reputation that took them years to create by offering alternative drive systems than AWD? Not me.

Bob

Forget more performance or luxury, the market is already full.

FHI should push Subaru to build hybrid or more eco-friendly cars at a reasonnable price. Offering a "green" alternative on every model could help them lure new clients.


I agree completely. I wish there was a turbo-diesel available for Subarus. Something like, say, a 2.6 liter H-4 TD, ought to be able to develop something like 160 HP and 250 lb-ft of torque.

Then you could run it on biodiesel and be VERY green.

i'd like to see a gas mileage engine too.

i think subaru has to fill some of the big segments that have introduced themselves recently. cars with exceptional gas mileage are very popular right now. and if subaru can fill that gap with the best awd i think it might work.

along with keeping the sports line on the forefront of course.

Not to forget that the US is not the only market Subaru sells in. Heck, they sold the Brumby (Brat) in Australia into the 90's long after the demise of the Brat in the US. I have read hundreds of articles and opinions about what Subaru "should" do to sell more cars to US buyers... quite frankly, I can't make heads or tails of their marketing philosophy/strategy. Do they really need the US market to survive as a manufacturer, or do they just not understand American taste?

Good or bad I didn’t think the Ford Five Hundred would have problems selling, but defintely didn’t expect the AWD versions to make a lot of noise. Perhaps the boom of SUV’s has reshaped the general public’s perception of AWD. It is now seemingly becoming more and more of a must-have factory option.

Of course this means Subaru is going to face more competition and new challenges. Subaru’s buyers like the reliability, safety, performance, and the uniqueness of their cars. I don’t think Subaru’s goals are to become a high volume car manufacturer with mass appeal like Ford or Toyota.

Since Subaru’s customer base is different and smaller compared to a Ford or a Toyota, it is that much more important to keep customers for life. The big companies can appeal to new buyers much more effectively, so once Subaru attracts a buyer, they must keep them so he or she buys a second and third Subaru in the future. I think Subaru is introducing the Tribeca to offer Legacy and Outback owners a chance to trade up.

Car enthusiasts in Japan recognize Subarus as solid and fun cars. In the States I think solid and reliable is more associated with Subaru. So in my opinion noting I’m talking about two different markets, Subaru needs to work harder on changing the American public’s perception of Subaru to include fun in addition to solid and reliable. This coincides with the person who posted about Subaru filling the void that BMW left.

Another issue I believe is Subaru’s car line up. I have a feeling potential buyers cross shop within Subaru’s models, in addition to other manufacturers’ cars. For example a person interested in a WRX Premium 5MT may also take a peek at the ($26,400) Legacy 2.5GT 5MT ($26,100) and maybe even at the Forester XT 5MT ($25,700).

Subaru should try to further differentiate their models by adjusting sizes and pricing options. I personally don’t like the new Forester looks, but I think that is one step towards distinguishing itself from the rest of the Subaru line. I also like the idea of bringing the R1/R2 over to the States, which could capture some of the economy car and young buyers market. Again, I think the idea would be for R1/R2 buyers to trade up to Imprezas and Legacys.

I think Subaru will always offer something that someone wants. It’s a matter of effectively marketing to what is essentially a niche market.

While that's not a bad idea, the notion of AWD is so firmly engrained in Subaru's psyche that it would hurt them dearly to get away from it.

Though I would like for them to sell a EJ20 stripped-down twincam AVCS Impreza to start off the lineup and price it at ~$18k. It might do for Subaru what the Integra LS did for Honda.


If Subaru wants to sell more cars in the world. They have to give up the idea only selling AWD cars. Instead of following the foot step of Honda, Toyota and other Japanese manufacture, Subaru should make the rear wheel drive and awd. If Subaru does, Subaru is the only import auto company produce the rear wheel drive cars for around $20,000 canadian dollars. (3 thousands less than AWD model). I really think the idea will work. cheers. :)

Not to forget that the US is not the only market Subaru sells in. Heck, they sold the Brumby (Brat) in Australia into the 90's long after the demise of the Brat in the US. I have read hundreds of articles and opinions about what Subaru "should" do to sell more cars to US buyers... quite frankly, I can't make heads or tails of their marketing philosophy/strategy. Do they really need the US market to survive as a manufacturer, or do they just not understand American taste?I'd say that success in North America (Canada/US) is essential for FHI's survival. Pullling some numbers from http://www.fhi.co.jp/fina/english/press/pdf/05_01_14e.pdf, and excluding the commercial and mini vehicles sold only in Japan, we have for 2004:
US - 187,402
Japan - 112,858
Europe - 55,653
Australia - 33,619
Worldwide - 433,458

Subaru Canada, Inc., sold about 15,000 cars last year, give or take a couple thousand (they're not so good about reporting annual numbers), which would push North American Subaru sales closer to half of worldwide sales.

North America is, by FAR, FHI's most important market.

While the Ford Fivehundred and the Freestyle are the direction I excepted Subaru to go, not the Tribeca route. They do however have several flaws.

Both have a middle seat that is useless. For the Fivehundred in the backseat and with the Freestyle in the middle seven seat option. The seat has situated right above or if your tall right at your head location a huge metal and plastic interior light. It is a dumb place to put it and eliminates the option of carrying any big person in the middle seat. It also serves to distract you when you look in the rearview mirror. The Fivehundred has almost no headroom and lacks frontseat legroom. Add the 203BHP and CVT with all that weight and it just sucks to drive. The Fivehundred is a big car with no room inside and no go. If Subaru built it instead it would have been much much better.

The Freestyle on the otherhand is a different approach and gets around the bad light position by having a standard six seat setup. It isn't as high as the Tribeca and while still having the CVT and being underpowered it doesn't try to be a macho sedan, instead making a perfect fit crossover. Add to that the appropriate price point and the Tribeca will be losing sales to Freestyles.

However, for the current lineup I just hope that Subaru adopts two things:
1. A real tilt steering wheel, not just the useless steering column.
2. Adjustable seat bolsters.

Quote: "However, for the current lineup I just hope that Subaru adopts two things:

1. A real tilt steering wheel, not just the useless steering column.
2. Adjustable seat bolsters."

1. - No!

My "other car" has a tilt steering wheel. I wish it had an adjustable column!

Why? Because the angle of the wheel varies radically with its height - which makes no sense at all. What would be much more useful would be either a telescoping column, or adjustable pedals, so everyone can get the fit they want.

2. Don't care. "Other car" also has adjustable seat bolsters - I never use them, as whatever you do, you can't actually make them deeper, which is what I would want. In fact, when the "power everything" seat fails, it will get repaced by a Recaro or similar, which has real support and no unnecessary adjustments.

My "other car" has a tilt steering wheel. I wish it had an adjustable column!

Why? Because the angle of the wheel varies radically with its height - which makes no sense at all.

No! You have it backwards my friend.

The tilt steering wheel means that it doesn't matter what the height of the wheel is but the angle can be adjusted to whatever angle you want. The Tilt steering column means that the tilt is fixed and can only be vaired by adjusting the steering wheel height. So if you like your wheel tilt very flat, but your wheel higher up with a tilt steering column your out of luck.

The Tilt Column also means that anyone who is tall hits his/her knee on the steering wheel everytime they get into the car. With a Tilt steering wheel, I would just flip the wheel out of the way and they tilt it back to the best driving position.

For the Taller NA consumer this would go a long way to increase sales, as would the Adjustable bolsters. You set the bolsters to the angle you like and forget about them. As it is with the steep bolster angles of all the Impreza's as of 05 I no longer can sit in the drivers seat for any length of time. My right knee sit in front of the centre facia and due to having long legs and my right knee sits on top of the right bolster. This puts my leg to sleep. Just what we do not want.

As it is, tall people will not be buying Impreza's. This may account for the increased Legacy sedan sales but it won't help Subaru if only little kids and short people are the only ones able to drive any Impreza.

Even with the mainstream maunfactures getitng in on the AWD bandwagon, the Subaru niche has been probed and tested many times before. They are moving in the right direction with the Tribeca. Some may not like the styling, but the fact is they they needed a larger vehicle. They still might need an even larger platform, for a sedan and wagon. Going upscale is a good move also. People like to associate with upscale quality and perceived luxury. They are moving in the right direction with trading battery technology with Toyota for their hybrid technology. They need several hybrid models in the near future I think they will make a diesel car fairly soon also. I worry that they will be sucked under the GM tide at some point but not in the near future. The car company I worry might take some real steam from Subie is Mazda. They have a great lineup of cars, that are very fun to drive.

I think subaru has enough satisfied customers who will become repeat buyers. I know I'm on my 3rd. =)

Don't count on that too much. I am on my second and it will be my last for quite awhile..... Subie does not offer the value that they used to.

AWD is the way to go. They need to get push engineering. Get greener, better balance, simpler, safer.

Peace,

Greg

Quote: "The tilt steering wheel means that it doesn't matter what the height of the wheel is but the angle can be adjusted to whatever angle you want. The Tilt steering column means that the tilt is fixed and can only be vaired by adjusting the steering wheel height. So if you like your wheel tilt very flat, but your wheel higher up with a tilt steering column your out of luck."

Exactly what I said, so how can I have it wrong??

As I don't like my wheel flat (it's a car, not a bus), but as I do want to adjust the column height for the most unobstructed view of the gauges, etc., an adjustable column is exactly what I want. The tilt wheel stuff is equally a compromise. If you want more clearance, you are forced to angle the wheel rather than just raise it up.

I'm 6' and fit in the Impreza just fine even with the seat all the way up the way I like it. I have had several 6'4" friends drive my car and they fit fine too.

The Feb 28 issue of Autoweek has a section called 'Winter Driving Special'. Within it, there is an article "Forget Your Fears" - trend to rear and all-wheel drive makes snow driving fun again.

In summary the article points out how common knowledge tells us front-drive provides better snow and ice traction, but to forget common knowledge. With recent improvement in tires, traction control, stability control, etc even a rear-wheel can be good in the snow. They tested some Caddys and Fords to prove their point.

The article also states that Ford says its market research shows that 50% of new car buyers would like an AWD car. The last paragraph.."None of the advantages of AWD comes as any revelation to longtime Audi quattro or Subaru fans, of course, but what for decades was a niche market seems poised to expand dramatically.

Is there to be a 350Z thats AWD and has a trubo on it. I think it will be a really nice car and yet again it will hurt Subaru because I even love that idea.

No there is not.

AWD will, at last, become the norm in the not too distant future. So, if your only "edge" is AWD, you had better find some other plus points real quick. Especially as Acura, not known as an AWD company, has rewritten the technology book on how to do AWD.

If Honda can make the leap, so can Toyota, GM, Ford et al.

They just need to decide they have to.

p.s. "Symmetrical All Wheel Drive" maybe a good marketing phrase to the technically ignorant, but it is not very meaningful. The only vehicles Subaru makes that are symmetrical in their drive train are the stick shifts. The autos are, like many "cute utes", mostly FWD, with RWD added in when needed.

AWD will, at last, become the norm in the not too distant future. So, if your only "edge" is AWD, you had better find some other plus points real quick. Especially as Acura, not known as an AWD company, has rewritten the technology book on how to do AWD.

If Honda can make the leap, so can Toyota, GM, Ford et al.

They just need to decide they have to.

p.s. "Symmetrical All Wheel Drive" maybe a good marketing phrase to the technically ignorant, but it is not very meaningful. The only vehicles Subaru makes that are symmetrical in their drive train are the stick shifts. The autos are, like many "cute utes", mostly FWD, with RWD added in when needed.


Rogerd - Just because Honda engineered some rear outside tire traction scheme, doesn't mean there is a whole new book on AWD. Frankly, the new RL hasn't gotten fantastic handiling ratings thus far. Not that Honda won't improve, but the simple Subaru system is still very effective.

The edge with Subaru was AWD, but it is begining to reveal it's perfomance edge, and it's safety edge. A Legacy GT versus an Accord / Camry / Mazda 6 / Volvo is a far better driving car.

You do understand that symmetrical also refers to the the cars drivetrain layout balance (Longitudinal engine layout & driveshaft at centerline, no unequal half-shafts), but there is far more drievtrain balance than even the SH_AWD Hondas. As evidenced with the STi, the AWD system for the other models can be upgraded. So Subie still has the technical lead.

Should Subie be worried , of course. Mazda has a lineup of great driving cars, Nissan/Infiniti have great drivers also, Honda & Toyota can do what ever they want. The Euros aren't going away either.

Subaru still has alot to offer, and will continue to challenge. The fact that more brands are offering AWD, proves a point of Subarus influence.

I'm not sure what the best marketing strategy is, so I'll let you folks argue the marketing issues.

As for existing and former Subaru customers, and other people who are already familiar with the Subaru brand, Subaru needs to look closely and carefully at the reasons given by those potential buyers, as to why those persons did not buy a Subaru the last time they were car shopping at a Subaru dealership.

If a potential buyer leaves the dealership without buying, there is a good chance they won't be back, because they will stumble upon another car brand/model and they'll end up buying that other one instead. Every car salesman knows that. Every car salesman knows that they need the customer to love the car as soon as they sit in the car. If Subaru doesn't have the level of adjustability and comfort for 90%+ of the people that sit in their cars, then Subaru has failed.

A year after Infiniti introduced the G35 (sedan and coupe), Infiniti updated the interior and added a telescoping steering column. Why can't Subaru do the same?

Subaru also needs to look very closely at any complaints or issues raised by auto magazines.

I would have bought two new Legacy's in the last 8-months if they had more feature content (even if optional), and more ability to get comfortable in the front seats (more front legroom length, telescoping steering wheel, and seats with extendable cushions, like BMW sport seats). I'll pay the extra money for those extra features.

The "symmetrical" term came from the marketeers long after Subaru were in the AWD business. It sounds good, but that's about it. To extend your argument, symmetry of layout would require the engine to be in the middle...anyway, the engine out the front "symetric" layout is the exact same layout Audi/VW have been using for years - back into the early '80's anyway.

Don't underestimate Honda and overestimate Subaru. Honda is one of the best auto engineering companies in the world, and once they get serious about something, they become leaders.

Don't get me wrong, I think the LGT is a great car - but it's a niche vehicle right now. And its niche is starting to be attractive to the big battalions.

For Marketing there needs to be a big advertising campaign like the Paul Hogan and the Subaru Outback branding.

How can you do this now? Maybe the new crocadile guys there are several, or picking up with a new younger "artist or movie star". Can Subaru convince Lindsey Lohan to drive a Subaru? Get here name everywhere with an appropriate named Subaru, or a similar type person and vehicle name link.

A SVX in the city with the Sex in the city stars. Pop a SVX in the show and extra commercials on tv. etc...

or

A John Stewart Subaru road report, have his 'reporter guy' drive around and talk to all the people who are stuck in the snow. Nice Ford or Mazda or Toyota sedan you have there in that snowbank...

Pop Subaru's in more movies. Have Will Smith drive a STi in a car chase where he outruns the bad guy in his big 300C...

Give a Subaru away at the superbowl...or better yet 10.

Don't underestimate Honda and overestimate Subaru. Honda is one of the best auto engineering companies in the world, and once they get serious about something, they become leaders.In the course of designing and refining its AWD systems over the last 30 years, FHI has collected quite a few patents. A strong patent porfolio makes life more difficult for new entrants, who frequently find they must "design around" a patent to avoid infringement, resulting in a more complex or more expensive system.

You can patent pieces of it, but the "original" limited slip/viscous center diff patents are old now, and were originally filed by a UK company called Ferguson Research who did the pioneering system that appeared in the '60's on the F1 circuit and in the Jensen CV8. I think we have already seen the next step - electronic control of each wheel, rather than merely fore and aft, to generate desired handling traits.

Meanwhile, the use of "simple" systems - like the 50-50 split on the stick shift Legacies, and M-B and BMW systems (which I think are both 40:60 split - previously used extensively by Ford of Europe) will continue to grow. M-B are pushing their system into the Chrysler family as well, and Ford and GM are both into platform sharing between SUV crossovers and sedans/wagons.

The Subaru challenge remains one of redefining their product in a world where AWD is the norm rather than the exception, as that is where things are headed.

Interesting times for all.

Someone needs to e-mail this thread to Subaru's marketing research team... Seriously.

Great thread with some really great posts.To simplify my thoughts,I agree that it would be nice to see Subaru stick with awd for everything,as it's the basis for their identity from the time they entered the US market,and evolve the performance identity,as sort-of a lower priced BMW alternative but using the boxer layout like Porsche.No-nonsense,driver-oriented,all-weather vehicles that have high value content at a much lower price point than the German marques,and always with a performance slant.

Someone needs to e-mail this thread to Subaru's marketing research team... Seriously.

No kidding.

']I'd say that success in North America (Canada/US) is essential for FHI's survival. Pullling some numbers from http://www.fhi.co.jp/fina/english/press/pdf/05_01_14e.pdf, and excluding the commercial and mini vehicles sold only in Japan, we have for 2004:
US - 187,402
Japan - 112,858
Europe - 55,653
Australia - 33,619
Worldwide - 433,458

Subaru Canada, Inc., sold about 15,000 cars last year, give or take a couple thousand (they're not so good about reporting annual numbers), which would push North American Subaru sales closer to half of worldwide sales.

North America is, by FAR, FHI's most important market.

Do not disclude the cars sold in Japan only. That is one of the largest markets in Japan. Saying that America is by far the most important is very misleading. These mini cars are sold in the thousands and thousands its probably one of Subarus biggest sellers. I do not believe that there is a huge market for a car that makes the smallest geo look like a caddy when compared to it.

I see your point Duo. From the 2005 President’s speech link Jon posted - total sale of minicars including commercial minicars = 165,596. That is a significant number considering the Japan passenger car sales were 112,858 and US sales were 187,402.

It will be interesting to see what happens to those sales now that it’s been over a year since the debut of the R2 in Dec 2003. Products in Japan seem to get stale much faster than in the US.

However, the President himself states “..in the US market, which is the most important market for Subaru, we carried out..” Subaru also achieved record-high sales in the US for the second consecutive year.

I’m not certain but I would think that the profit margins on cheaper minicars are much smaller than on passenger cars. Also, there are much more untapped prospective buyers in the US than in Japan. So though the Japan domestic market is very important to Subaru, I think they feel they need to increase market share overseas and the US is the prime target. Actually I think the US market is crucial to Subaru’s success.

It won’t be easy, but my opinion is that the R2 may be received well here in the US, specifically in the urban areas where space is a premium. But I’ve never been in one and the car may simply be too small for the typical American.

Very small cars have never been accepted in the US - and with our roads full of big, heavy SUV's and minivans with their drivers chatting away on their cell phones, or whatever, I think a Japanese or European size small car would be a hard sell from a safety point of view.

As to getting the thread to Subaru marketing - I rather hope someone there is bright enough to get out and and read what Subaru's most loyal customers are saying.

Very small cars have never been accepted in the US - and with our roads full of big, heavy SUV's and minivans with their drivers chatting away on their cell phones, or whatever, I think a Japanese or European size small car would be a hard sell from a safety point of view.

As to getting the thread to Subaru marketing - I rather hope someone there is bright enough to get out and and read what Subaru's most loyal customers are saying.

Tell that to all those Scion drivers I see around. I believe that Nissan is planning on bringing the cube, and Chevy's got the Aveo out now. It seems like an important entry-level market that could explode if gas prices keep going up. I don't know how well the 2 door micro-cars would do here, but the sedans seem to be doing well.

I for one would love to have an R1 as a commuter car.

Just my $.02

Scion, et al, are not "small cars" in the sense I was talking about; the Scion tC as an example is based on the Euro Avensis sedan - which Hertz rents you in the UK as a mid size. Go look at the Nissan Micra, etc. No way I want to be T boned by a full size SUV in one of those - you would get punted like a football.

I was thinking more of the xA & xB, but I get what you are saying. Just remember, there is a BIG difference between what Europe & Japan consider small cars and what North America considers small cars. I think the cars referenced by studies about how small car sales are going up in the states are the ones I listed along with a few others like the mini cooper. I agree that it is premature to bring a car like the R1 or Micra over here, but a vehicle like the R2 is in a class that is gaining momentum and bringing it here would be a good way to gauge the market and see if there is interest for a car like the R1.

Yeah - big is relative. Aslo remember that the average American is a little taller and heavier than his Euro or Japanese counterpart. And there are definitely more really big (tall and/or heavy) people here than there.

Btw, as a one time owner of a number of "real" Minis, in various stages of mod, I find the current one to be, well, big. And nothing I have ever driven before or since changed direction like a well set up Mini. Put a set of competition Konis on and you were uncatchable.

I can see where your comming from and Subarus outlook on the situation. The R2 is pretty roomy for such a small car and the previous mini the Pleo was cool and roomy!!!

Should Subaru Worry? Answer Yes! I think they always worry, but our stymied by their conservative approach to the market in the US.

You know who should worry is BMW. They are really about to be set on. The new Infiniti M45 is nice, they have a Skyline waiting in the wings. If Toyota ever decides to get serious about adding performance/handling into their lineup, it' gonna be a bloody day at BMW. The new Lexus GS430 is nice + AWD as an option = WOW. Plus they have the concept supercar. Honda is in the same position, although the recent reviews of the RL although good, they weren't stellar. Next years RL will be a bit more sporty I bet. Even Benz feels the pressure to add more sporty performance, and also value. So there is alot of competition all the way up the food chain.

I think Subaru had a pretty good hand in pushing up the performance ante with the WRX, and of course the crossover segment with the Outback. It set some other manufactures in motion. I think other manufactures have their eye on what Subie is doing.

I know a number of BMW owners. Put simply, most will never buy anything else. For some, its the sports sedan, soak up the bumps, accurate handling - and BMW does this better than anyone. For others it's pure euro sedan "superiority". For some, a Lexus MIGHT make the cut (but preferably a Benz, or an Audi), but pretty much nothing else. Infinitis are not well regarded by this group - sort of de luxe Nissans (or Datsuns if they are being sniffy that day). To the point that the ONLY SUV they will consider is an X5 or maybe an X3.

No one is really getting seriously into BMW's space - they are for example, the only up market player left who offers a real range of manual transmissions - and they offer AWD on the 3 series car and wagon. Even Audi has dumped manuals for its 05 A6's. And M-B only offers them on the bottom end of their range. BMW's real problems are self inflicted: Chris Bangle, who has screwed up the styling of pretty much the whole range, and I-drive. If they can survive those two disasters, they will survive anything.

Most of this stuff sounds interesting but the only issue is Subaru has an edge of the market that I don't think any auto manufacture can take from them. They are starting to compete with the Euro styling (kudos) and they are performance minded at the end of the day. There is not ONE subaru car that leaves the factory that doesn't have a form of AWD. The problem with all the other car makers is that AWD is an "option". There is no "standard" AWD on any other car on the market.

Suburu needs to be worried if say Honda builds their Civic Si concept with AWD standard. The moment car makers factor AWD in as a standard option, then Subaru has to worry. Until then, they've got the advantage.

There is not ONE subaru car that leaves the factory destined for the US that doesn't have a form of AWD. The problem with all the other car makers is that AWD is an "option". There is no "standard" AWD on any other car make on the US market.
fixed ;)