I have been thinking more and more about the LGT wagon (it just looks so good) but if it wouldn't be as competitive at a road course event then I may hold off just a bit.

Just looking for your thoughts on the new Legacy GT wagon and speculate on what it's performance might be like (modded) compared to a WRX wgn (also modded-lightly-stg2 access port/exhaust/suspension).

I guess I am fishing to understand it's potential to help justify a possible purchase. Regardless of how I think it looks and drives, if it isn't somewhat competitive then I would be dissapointed, and my only "barometer" for reference is my WRX.

Thanks,

define "competitive"

Based on the Subaru Challenge test drive & local dealer test drives, I'd say it would probably be just as fast on the straights, slower in the corners & would put more stress on the brakes.

I own a WRX wagon, a FXT, and an old-skool 2.5RS - all of them are fun to drive, and serve different purposes when not autoxing/rallyxing/roadcoursing. If I had to choose one to take to VIR, it would be the 2.5RS - because it's the most expendable. :lol: (and because it handles just as well as the WRX & much better than the FXT - and because more power means I need more brake - and so on...)

Unless you're actually time trialing or something, just get the one that YOU WANT.

Yeah was going to comment on what do you mean by competative on a road course? Are you planning on Time Trialing it? Road Racing it? Etc? If it's just for HPDE, then it will be more driver skill than anything so get what you want. Also as I've heard many many times. "After 5-6 track days, you realize, don't bring anything to the track you can't afford/don't mind NOT taking home, in the event you wad it up in the wall"

-mike

Well...very good points.

I think Mike has helped me to keep my WRX. At it's current value of $16k or so it's much easier to replace. Especially since I paid it off in full long ago. So a new car pmt. I can handle.

I have always been hunting for the single "have your cake and eat it to" car. This car would have to perform well and be practical enough for some family use. Thus the WRX wgn.

I have throughly enjoyed discovering and modifying while owning something that is somewhat unique. Future goal is to experience this car on "a track" for the sheer joy of being there. I really have no desire to compete ( I say that now ;) . Ultimately, to do this at Sears Point. I have been going there for years as a spectator so one day on that track and ...I dunno, nirvana.

Fred, "slower in the corners", what is it a couple hundred pounds heavier? That combined with it's added length? It has similar wheel size options.

Maybe I need both :)

I haven't had my GT wagon at the track yet, like my (former) WRX wagon, but just in driving it around town in my usual exuberant style, stock for stock, the GT owns the WRX in every way except that tossability that the WRX offers. The GT is faster, brakes better, and handles better in the kinds of real-world corners (sweepers, for example). The stock GT brakes are fully up to the car. I added a JDM 20mm swaybar to my wagon, and the handling improvement is pretty awesome.

The WRX wagon feels like it's scrabbling, where the GT is composed. When I first got the GT, I was taking a favorite offramp, hearing the tires squeal and thinking "Man, this thing handles a LOT worse than my WRX wagon." Then I looked at the speedometer, and I was going faster than I could in my WRX. The GT's smoothness makes you underestimate its capabilities.

And for the power modders, Stage II folks are getting more at-the-wheels torque than STis. I love my GT wagon more every time I drive it, and I was very fond of my WRX wagon.

Kevin

Here's what we need to do...

1. get a few decent drivers together, some with WRX wagons & some with Legacy GT's.

2. Put STi wheels & stock STi tires on them all (since that's what I have :lol: ) & go at it at VIR South in April - my local club will be there, and I get a discount for being a member. :)

3. See who can pull away from who & where, and post the results.

4. ????

5. Profit!

:banana:

Or have one bad-ass driver take the different cars out and see what kind of times they post.

Very very nice Kevin,

Interesting, now this sparks another question. What make the GT able to go faster? Suspension design must be very similar, weight is slightly more, and tire size is the same (I don't count stock rims at all).

Theoretically, the "tossability" of the GT can be improved upon...yes?

Maybe I am waiting for someone like yourself to keep going with mods and report on the findings.

If the handling isn't that far off then the leather, power/heated seats, sunroof, etc. will make the small (hoping they are very small) tradeoffs very much worth it. The price is certainly right.

Having owned a 03 WRX wagon, and currently having a 05 LGT wagon I can make a direct comparison...

05 LGT >>> WRX.

better motor
better gear ratios
better transmission
better suspension
better wieght balance
better steering (way the hell better than my 04 STi)

basicly I was very close to keeping up with a highly modded WRX with just an intake, unichip, and Sti rims + tires. The other car had a full stage 3 package + coilovers, etc. Basicly it came down to me not having a big enough pair + lack of recent track time on the difficult road course.

Heck I was thinking that it would suck at autoX compared to the STi, yet I find on the backroads I commute over, what is a virtual hairpin for the STi is a middling sweeper thanks to the improvements. So I might use the LGT for autoX this year.

take the money you were gonna put down on the new legacy and buy a Miata.....

Wagon for the road

Miata for the track

lather rinse repeat!!

Why would the Legacy GT handle so much better than a WRX or STi? Assuming that you have equal tires, the Legacy GT is similar to the WRX or STI with respect to suspension type, all wheel drive, weight distribution, etc. If anything, I would think that the Legacy GT would weigh more and be more softly sprung.

Has anyone autocrossed in a Legacy GT?

On a side note, for the track I use a 96 Impreza L gutted, caged, and looks like total crap, cause it's expendible, I can go hot into a corner with a guy with a Z06 in the rain and not worry about it one stich. For the street I run my SVX and 94 Legacy Turbo. I've tracked the SVX and the legacy turbo as well. The SVX was actually quite agile considering it's weight.

It's mostly driver skill when it comes down to it in the end. I would imagine the WRX and the LGT both are close enough in performance that the deciding factor would be driving skills really.

-mike

I think that what makes the Legacy GT handle better than the WRX (note that I diffrentiate handling from tossability...many don't) is the steering ratio and rear multilink configuration. The stock 17" wheel/tire package helps also, as well as the attention paid to reducing steering kickback. The GT has the 15:1 steering rack of the STi, where the WRX is still 16.5:1. The difference is quite noticeable.

The Legacy is just easier to place, and it stays where you put it. The WRX did, once I put on all the STi suspension and links packages, but after that, it didn't ride anywhere near as nice as the Legacy GT does.

As power relates to overall handling, the comparative lack of lag, Legacy to WRX, also tilts the equation to the Legacy's side of the fence. You can set the car and power out of corners much more easily. The GT, stock to stock, also has less body roll than the WRX.

Kevin

The GT has the 15:1 steering rack of the STi, where the WRX is still 16.5:1. The difference is quite noticeable.

Well, my wagon's steering feels just like the STi's, and is much quicker than any pre-05 WRX I've driven... just so you know.

Actually, after reading your whole post, are you talking about an 05 WRX, or the (much inferior) pre-05's? My wagon has a quicker steering rack & had very little body roll when stock - even less now with Konis & Prodrive springs. When driving the LGT, it felt like a big, torquey WRX wagon with slower steering - the brakes actually felt really good. :confused:

maybe I need to go test-drive another LGT... :devil:

Actually, after reading your whole post, are you talking about an 05 WRX, or the (much inferior) pre-05's? My wagon has a quicker steering rack & had very little body roll when stock - even less now with Konis & Prodrive springs. When driving the LGT, it felt like a big, torquey WRX wagon with slower steering - the brakes actually felt really good. :confused:

maybe I need to go test-drive another LGT... :devil:

The last WRX I drove in anger was an '04, which had all the suspension improvements, etc. I wasn't aware that they had quickened the WRX's steering for '05. If they did, that would be a good thing.

The GT's brakes rock the house, for sure.

Kevin

Why would the Legacy GT handle so much better than a WRX or STi?

i dunno but it does ..
given the stock suspension has alot to be desired way too mushie for my tastes but the turn in is amazing

an LGT +sti pinks +sways +Accessport +real tires is probblay a better track car than a stock STI

my guess is the amount of castor in the front wheels

an LGT +sti pinks +sways +Accessport +real tires is probblay a better track car than a stock STI

:eek: Wow. I thought it was a pretty solid/good driving car on the street & was fun to drive on the side course at Subaru Challenge, but I didn't know it was THAT good. Maybe I shouldn't have talked the wife into a FXT... :lol:

Exactly...Wow...
This is getting more and more interesting. Kev, how much value in "tossability". This is a factor shared among real sportcars that I have heard from some mean quite alot.
With all the extra features/comforts the LGT has to offer then why not get one?
Now I am thinking that there is no reason (don't consider $) to get a WRX over the LGT.
My wife hates my WRX because she doesn't drive a MT and I haven't set aside time to teach her. She also complains about the ride. There is no way I could sell her a LGT with the 5MT but I think I can for an Auto.
Now does that throw a wrench into my plans of keeping a sporty wagon with the occasional road course event thrown in?
I read somewhere that an Auto was Dyno'd at only 5hp less, those who have one...how does it respond to aggressive driving? I drove one WRX sedan with an auto trans and absolutely hated it, and a friends C55 AMG and (except with the MB signature few milliseconds of lag) it was Very nice.

Well the 5EAT in the Legacy GT is a lot better than the 4EAT in the WRX so thats another point for it. I don't know how it will hold up to track usage though.

When my WRX wagon was totaled I considered getting another for about 5 seconds. The Legacy is just so much better and barely costs more so it was a no brainer for me. Like Kevin said it doesn't feel as tossable as the WRX but it feels much more stable and planted through corners and with faster steering rack its still plenty nimble. It is hard to compare the handling of a WRX wagon with an STi wagon suspension, ALK, and 20mm swaybars front and rear to a LGT Wagon with stock tire and Whiteline swaybars front and rear though. The Legacy is definitely a lot more comfortable though.

I have spent some time over at the legacygt forums and they were last comparing the tranny to that of the Nissan
LegacyGT forum link (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3324&page=2&pp=10&highlight=5eat+nissan)


Drew...slowly leaning and maybe soon to be "workin" on the wife :D

Um, the LGT seems to have the fastest rack of any subaru other than maybe the 05 STi. Its quicker than the rack in the evo past a 1/4 turn in either direction. I use ALOT less lock on the steeringwheel to take a Tighter arc around the hairpins on my commute.

One of the great advantages of the LGT is the removal of wieght off the nose of the car. battery is farther back, less sheetmetal where its not needed, less redundant structures, and aluminum bumperbeams instead of steel. The new front suspension is also possibly part of the benifits. The rear suspension is certainly a world better stock V stock. Oh and subaru actualy braces the rear subframe some instead of leaving it a full floater like the Impreza one.

I'm doing a track day saturday so I'll see how these GPMoto coilovers do for that. So far they have been amazing for the street. Leave the strut adjustment on full soft and it rides great. Not much different than my Jaguar XJR. Crank it up to 7-8 clicks in and its getting very stiff.

Autos are fine for the track. I used to track my '92 SVX, did about 8 track days with it with the 4EAT. It did fine no issues, just be sure to add the 28k GVWR B&W Trans Cooler from the Summit Racing Catalog and you'll be in good shape. My SVX was excellent in that you put it in "2" and it would wind out to redline then upshift, it would then downshift as soon as it wouldn't blow redline in 2nd. Not sure how the newer ones work, I know in my '96 L racecar that I also run a 4EAT its not as nice cause you have to put it in "3" to get it to work the gears properly ontrack.

I find it funny though that you guys are all willing to put 25-30K worth of car on the track at risk. Anyone who does that and can afford it is fortunate. I know when I drove my street cars on track i don't push them to the 10/10 area that I do with my track-only car.

-mike

I'm not ever going to be near 10/10ths. For me it 's the joy of being there (on a track like Laguna Seca...you might see this grown man cry :huh: ...I cannot wait to get there).

I was never a point A to B person. I enjoy being behind the wheel just that much. Give me a ridable lawnmower and I'm having a blast. I may be the only 37 yr old on my blk. that enjoys racing his son on our scooters. If it rolls I'll find away to enjoy it.
In appreciating an automobile, I have a standard that I prefer. It must have X amount of basic handling/power/feel...or it's barely an automobile. I think it's a shame auto makers still sell cars with sloppy suspensions, lousy brakes, and roofs that colapse to the body in a roll over, it's just not right.
I going in all directions....must be the coffee :p
I see people driving sports cars on the street and cannot for the life of me understand why it's consistantly driven 5-10mph below the posted limit. I am 10 over, see a cop, lift off throttle-reducing speed 5mph= 5mph over...no ticket :) and in a perfect world, wish that everyone drove closer to the posted limit, or politely move over. :rolleyes: Oh, in SoCal common curtesy is also dead... :(


Time for another cup -o- joe...

id be that guy .. slow down damit ..:P

its not about the ticket its about sharing the road with 10000lb suvs that dont stop or turn

I'm not ever going to be near 10/10ths. For me it 's the joy of being there (on a track like Laguna Seca...you might see this grown man cry :huh: ...I cannot wait to get there). ..

Always cool to see people get hooked on HPDE. :)

The problem is you will realize that you want to go 10/10s or that people around you will be going 10/10ths and say "why am I using the car I need to go to work in tomorrow for this" haaa :)

-mike