I had my first taste of what a well driven poorly prepped ESP STi could do last weekend. Andrew Hahn, and Gerry Terranova drove the car. And posted better then respectable times. This course was failry power oriented, with the most complicated sections containing 2 slaloms. The car suposedly has no suspenions mods other than front and rear sway bars. On stock tires. Cat-back atleast.

Anyway, I'd estimate the average time of the course as 95 seconds. Even though they were well below that. Hypothetically speaking, what times SHOULD an STi, WRX, and RS(gc) run respectively on said course. Assuming Equal tires, and drivers.

huh?

The answer really is "depends"

STi > WRX > RS is all I got.

-Tom

It really depends on the course, I've been on some courses where a WRX's gearing could be an advantage over the STi. Just how much of an advantage though is hard to say. Enough to overcome the power/handling/braking advantage of the STi, probably not, but then again it's really tough to make generalizations like that when there are so many variables involved.

After a couple events to get familar with the car, my lightly prepped STi was faster than the former STX National Champ (Hi KC) at a New Jersey region SCCA event and a NER two-day event. Fast and medium speed courses. By roughly 1 to 1.5 seconds, both cars on street tires.

Without a doubt, a prepped STi will eat a well prepped WRX. IMO.

Chris H.
'04 STi

pptthhhh

I think a stock STI is faster than a very well prepped STX WRX. As for the GC8 RS, a STX WRX is faster than a STS RS, but perhaps not as large of a gap as a STU STI over a STX WRX.

as XJohnX said... course dependent. I've driven his stock STi on a lot of courses where I think the midrange grunt and corner exit power-rotate of the STi would be quicker than my STX car... on the other hand, the STX car eats the stock STi's lunch in slaloms, and on one such course, the STX car was faster by... a fair bit. I'll reserve judgement for how a well-suspended STi handles in comparison for when I drive one :)

I think a stock STI is faster than a very well prepped STX WRX.

I very much disagree. the STi is fairly uncompetitive in stock class/form. no question (in my experience).

apples to apples the STi > WRX > RS ... but it's rarely ever apples to apples isn't it.

pptthhhh
:lol: :lol:

I very much disagree. the STi is fairly uncompetitive in stock class/form. no question (in my experience).

apples to apples the STi > WRX > RS ... but it's rarely ever apples to apples isn't it.
I disagree with your disagreement. :p

Look at it this way....
A 'fully prepped' Stock STi in AS is faster then a WRX, BMW 330, IS300 in DS, wouldn't you agree?

STX has almost the same pax (.006 harder than DS this year) as DS and has been running around the same time as DS (Nationals results are not working at this time but I beleive STX was just a hair slower than DS on the South Course ... N. course doesn't count due to rain). On the other tours, STX was +/- 1 second to DS.

So, it stands to reason to say the STi *is* faster than in STX prepped WRX and will be again this year with more development.

--kC

I very much disagree. the STi is fairly uncompetitive in stock class/form. no question (in my experience).

apples to apples the STi > WRX > RS ... but it's rarely ever apples to apples isn't it.
How exactly does a stock stis chance of winning AS correlate to how fast it is compared to a stx wrx? I mean a non z06 c5 vette is uncompetitive in stock form, but that doesnt make a stx wrx faster.

I very much disagree. the STi is fairly uncompetitive in stock class/form. no question (in my experience).

apples to apples the STi > WRX > RS ... but it's rarely ever apples to apples isn't it.

Hahahaha, we'll agree to disagree. All I know is, with my bone stock STi (at the time) I was able to beat the current (at the time) STX national champ in his WRX at three consecutive autocross events. He is a better driver than me, and I was still fairly inexperienced with my new ride.

After installing my STU/ESP suspension, but still on stock tires, the gap grew larger.

In addition, when I still lived in Oregon, I went from a DSP prepped 2.5RS that challenged for TTOD at local (Euegen, OR) events against several top drivers in CSP and SS cars. First event ever in the bone stock STi, my co-driver and I went roughly 1 second faster. And these are typicall shorter, slower courses with a premium on grip.

In my experience, I was able to see a direct comparison of the STi versus well prepped WRX and 2.5RS.

Chris H.

Jeremy,

running my car in GS at local events (asphalt) against the moderately prepped ESP STi that I'll be driving this year, the STi was generally 1.5-2s faster IIRC, with both of us competiting for PAX honors.

I think Chris's and KC's arguements are pretty valid. :)

that said, and my point was (if there even was one), that in my (local) experience here the few A-stock STi's that compete are somewhat consistently slower than the top street tire STS and STX (and STU) cars.

oh, and another experience I had that lent me my opinion was from a practice event last season where my wife and I brought out our two cars and drove them back to back. My wife's lightly prepped 2.5RS with all season tires (sways and KYB/Eibech) was almost faster than my unprep'd (stock) STi.

(I was pretty disappointed in the STi for autox'ing when I first bought it, I guess I think that's really where I'm coming from with this).

I'm gonna say that's the driver more than anything else.

I've driven a very well prepped STX WRX (Steve G's car) and driven a couple of lightly prepped STIs. At Miller Park, which is asphalt and has fairly fast courses, I'd take a stock 05 STI over Steve's car.

I think Chris's and KC's arguements are pretty valid. :)

that said, and my point was (if there even was one), that in my (local) experience here the few A-stock STi's that compete are somewhat consistently slower than the top street tire STS and STX (and STU) cars.

oh, and another experience I had that lent me my opinion was from a practice event last season where my wife and I brought out our two cars and drove them back to back. My wife's lightly prepped 2.5RS with all season tires (sways and KYB/Eibech) was almost faster than my unprep'd (stock) STi.

(I was pretty disappointed in the STi for autox'ing when I first bought it, I guess I think that's really where I'm coming from with this).
Yep. Drivers.

As a whole.... with good drivers, an STi will be faster than a Stock or ST WRX or 2.5RS.

--kC

Yep. Drivers.

As a whole.... with good drivers, an STi will be faster than a Stock or ST WRX or 2.5RS.

--kC

agreed...

The bottom end grunt is FAR greater than a WRX or RS...Having driven all 3 competiitvly...I can can say if all three were prepped ..The STi would have a better time than the other two...even when they were all on the same rim/tire combo and depending on the course...Especially a National Style course...If the same driver drove all 3 cars...Alll of them were prepped to to limit....the STi would win..

Bill

Bottom end grunt and front diff are worth quite a bit;)

Bottom end grunt and front diff are worth quite a bit;)


:) my sentiments exactly...;)

I think Chris's and KC's arguements are pretty valid. :)

that said, and my point was (if there even was one), that in my (local) experience here the few A-stock STi's that compete are somewhat consistently slower than the top street tire STS and STX (and STU) cars.

oh, and another experience I had that lent me my opinion was from a practice event last season where my wife and I brought out our two cars and drove them back to back. My wife's lightly prepped 2.5RS with all season tires (sways and KYB/Eibech) was almost faster than my unprep'd (stock) STi.

(I was pretty disappointed in the STi for autox'ing when I first bought it, I guess I think that's really where I'm coming from with this).
I am going to have to just add that LOCAL events are going to be a mish-mash of how the cars are preped and what you are used to driving.

I can give you an example that I had been running against a VERY good local driver in a 2.5RS STS with a COMPLETELY stock STi (no alignement), and I was about 1 second slower than him at every event.

Fastforward to this year, and I was one second FASTER than the same driver in a WRX with R-compound on his car with my car in mildly preped STU trim STi with a gorillia behind the wheel.

Overall, I feel that the STi is going to be faster with a good driver over any other Subie with equal prep levels. That is why I prefer to listen to National Level drivers speak about the cars in class as all of those cars are generally 100% prepared for the class, and you can start cross comparing classes. Locally, there are weird cars with weird prep levels that you wont know all about.

I can understand your frustration though. When I had my WRX, my goal was to be faster than all the STis at the event in RAW time. That lasted for about 3 events where the STi drivers got used to their cars, and then there is NO WAY you will catch them.

Even in the slaloms, a street tire'd STi at my local test and tune was faster than a medium prep'd WRX in a timed slalom element by about 1 second. Great driver in the WRX, gorillia in the STi. ;)

- dow

I can understand your frustration though. When I had my WRX, my goal was to be faster than all the STis at the event in RAW time. That lasted for about 3 events

- dow
haha I remember those days. Boy was I wrong :o

Bottom end grunt and front diff are worth quite a bit;)

dude...very well put. it's funny how most of the people saying the STi can be slower than an STX WRX are those that OWN STis. maybe looking for an excuse to do ****ty? :confused:

the front diff alone is worth TONS of time on an average course. i know the last course i went to, STi were in a 4 wheel drift coming out out of a tight bend while us WRXs were bogging 2nd waiting for the turbo to spool up. there's almost a second right there.

let me add i was at that event and with a similar prepped car. they were a couple seconds ahead. both andrew and gerry (national champ) are excellent drivers and also andrew has a lot of seat time into that car! also i was running 86's in more poorly driven STU prepped car (my fourth autox in an STi been driving vettes for the last four years before). on a side note their was an STX prepped better than mine with only suspension mods (no power) turning in same times as mine...

let me add i was at that event and with a similar prepped car. they were a couple seconds ahead. both andrew and gerry (national champ) are excellent drivers and also andrew has a lot of seat time into that car! also i was running 86's in more poorly driven STU prepped car (my fourth autox in an STi been driving vettes for the last four years before). on a side note their was an STX prepped better than mine with only suspension mods (no power) turning in same times as mine...

the only power mods i have is a gutted stock uppipe.

suspension mods are :

Espelir GT springs
KYB AGXs
Helix rear sway bar
noltec camber plates

Tires :

Kumho MXs

that is the EXTENT of my mods.

are you talking about the Gainesville autoX?

Wow, I didn't realize this thread would last more than a couple replies. It's obvous to me and should be to everyone else that STi > WRX > RS.

My question was to what extent. Maybe I should've stated, equal levels of prep, in a STOCK class, same driver, same tires. Assuming a typical 60 second course.

I'm just trying to justify the fact that this particular STi was 6 seconds faster than me. :(

I'm just trying to justify the fact that this particular STi was 6 seconds faster than me.

:lol:

Theoretically, AS vs. DS vs. GS... STi = 90 sec, WRX = 93.6, 2.5RS = 95.3

So, yes - you can justify being 6 seconds slower on a 90 sec course, IF you were both prepped to the limit AND you're both living up to the pax index you're assigned. BUT if you were fully-prepped including race tires & the STi was totally stock... :)

the only power mods i have is a gutted stock uppipe.

suspension mods are :

Espelir GT springs
KYB AGXs
Helix rear sway bar
noltec camber plates

Tires :

Kumho MXs

that is the EXTENT of my mods.

are you talking about the Gainesville autoX?
no this was in mineral wells, tx.

for results to compare:
http://autocross.com/er/cc105.htm

i am 63 STU (i ran the 86 in my pax runs)

EDIT: Make that 9 seconds :(
Nice times Phillip.
In my defense, I was never able to make a run on a completely dry course. For a reference. The course wasn't dry until the 3rd and last heat.

that is true about the wet course. the STi is just an extremely powerful car on low the end tons of torque with avcs. i think some of it is the car and some of it is some bad azz driving on their part. trust i was asking the same questions myself since andrew was ahead of me by 4-6 secs faster...

I had my first taste of what a well driven poorly prepped ESP STi could do last weekend. Andrew Hahn, and Gerry Terranova drove the car.

Isn't it James Hahn, the former ProSolo Rookie of the Year? Gerry's friend (I believe it was James) called me about ESP setup. He's planning to prep the car for the class, but not to a full National level. Stock fenders, maybe a rolled lip, etc. Still, good to have two more drivers of their talent in the class.

Joel

Maybe it was Andrew. Damn I'm bad with names...

Maybe it was Andrew. Damn I'm bad with names...
Yeah, maybe you were thinking of James Kahn :lol:

Isn't it James Hahn, the former ProSolo Rookie of the Year? Joel


he drove a fully prepped NEON in STS...in 01-02??? I think....His dad campains a pretty good effort in STX with a Sentra Spec V. If thats the guy your thinkin...

Bill

Well I feel much better after yesterdays results.
http://www.autocross.com/texasregion/

Man, ESP is a soft pax this year :lol:

-Tom

Greg Hahn, maybe? He used to run a Neon down in FL, don't know what he's driving now. G. Warren Hahn his dad runs the STX Spec V.

Andrew Hahn from TX I believe used to run a DS WRX.

Greg Hahn, maybe? He used to run a Neon down in FL, don't know what he's driving now. G. Warren Hahn his dad runs the STX Spec V.

Andrew Hahn from TX I believe used to run a DS WRX.


Thats him...:)

Bill

Yep; that's the guy I talked to.

Man, ESP is a soft pax this year :lol:

-Tom
Seriously, I'm getting raped at events this year :(

I've driven a very well prepped STX WRX (Steve G's car) and driven a couple of lightly prepped STIs. At Miller Park, which is asphalt and has fairly fast courses, I'd take a stock 05 STI over Steve's car.

Where's the love, Phil?:p

Actually, I ran my old car (on fresh Azenis) back to back against a bone stock STi at a local event last year, and was nearly a second faster in the STi. The horsepower & differentials are simply that much better.

-Steve

p.s. Phil, you still owe me a couple co-drives in that Frankenpreza! ;)