Well, I'm now contemplating the re-assembly of the EJ257 after it gets back from the machine shop next weekend. Getting forged pistons for those that didn't see the other thread that I started on "wall clearance". Anyway, what I want to know is if there's a step by step procedure for assembling the Subaru bottom-end? Obviously I'll put everything back in as it came out. However, is there and assembly lube to use or motor oil or????? How do you put the piston rings on the pistons? I'm going to by a piston ring compressor thingie to put the pistons back down in the cylinders but don't know how to use one. Also, are the piston ring gaps suppused to be clocked in any direction etc etc. Put yourself in my shoes when giving me feedback on this as I've never built an engine (well I can say now that I've taken one apart ;) ).

Thank you,

Todd

I'm not trying to be mean or sarcastic, but you might want to think about having something of this magnitude professionally done. Lots of potential for things to go wrong if you never built an engine before... jmho. Hope everything works out for you if you do decide to build it yourself.

Let someone do it for you it will not be a big charge maybe like 250.00.I try to do all my work but sometimes there are things that can be done faster and cheaper farming it out.I can see you maybe wanting to learn how to do the work yourself but do you want to learn on this one?Brad

Hey tmarcel this thread wont answer all your questions but there is some stuff to read about there.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=671709&goto=lastpost

Guys, thanks but unles you've had an engine apart vefore you won't understand why I'm rebuilding it myself. Honestly, I noticed (and the machine shop also confirmed) that the crank bearing can only go back in one way. They have little notches on them to show you where they go. I'm not taking the rods off the crank so that's one less thing to worry about. This engine only had 12k miles and it looks it (very very clean). Plus, my buddy is going to give me hand (he's got experience doing this stuff, albeit not Subaru). He's too anal to let me take any short cuts so I'm cool.

TyranosaurusWRX -

I'll check it out now and I appreciate it.

Todd

Plus, my buddy is going to give me hand (he's got experience doing this stuff, albeit not Subaru). He's too anal to let me take any short cuts so I'm cool.

I think that will save you a ton of time and potentially might eliminate some of the headaches compared to if you were trying to do it all by yourself. Personally, I wouldn't attempt it, but you're probably more mecanically inclined than I am. :)

we put a lot of good info in that thread. also pm me if you run into any problems or questions. i have a manual for any of the torque values, etc.

attitude -

Thanks. I just read the whole thread this morning. I should be almost straight. However, I'm doing a full build (except rods) and not just a piston install. I just got off the phone with Subaru parts where I ordered the crank bearings and various block seals. They couldn't find the block sealer in their system though. What are Subaru engine builders using to assemble the block halves? The sealant that was on there from the factory was black/charcoal colored. Any idea?

Check your PM's

Ask your Subaru parts dealer for "Fuji Bond" If they don't know what it is then I suggest you find a better dealer or just wander into their service department and talk to one of the "service specialists" (No grease monkeys). Any dealer that has to do service work will know what fuji bond is.

If that fails - Part Number - 004403007 - Fuji bond is your friend

the piston ring compressor i used looked like a big clamp that wrapped around the piston, you tighten it up and it makes the rings flush with the side of the piston and you set it at the top of the cylinder and tap the piston down the cylinder, the ring gaps will need to be set at appropriate intervals

If you have never done it before, OR at least watched someone do it many many times... I wouldnt try to tackle this project. Subaru manual help however.

-Mike

i did the full build, not just pistons.

edited: wrong thread!

Check your PM's

Ask your Subaru parts dealer for "Fuji Bond" If they don't know what it is then I suggest you find a better dealer or just wander into their service department and talk to one of the "service specialists" (No grease monkeys). Any dealer that has to do service work will know what fuji bond is.

If that fails - Part Number - 004403007 - Fuji bond is your friend


Mick -

Sweet man. Just replied to your PM as well. Is that the Subaru part number that you listed above?

Todd

i did the full build, not just pistons.

Oh I didn't mean anything by that. I was just saying that the other thread didn't go into splitting the block. I really appreciate your assistance. Guys like you are what makes these forums a good place. I mean, the majority of the forums out there have guys discussing BOV and which intake to get ;) At least here we've got a multitude of knowlege which makes it indispensable for situations like this :cool:

Todd

i wasn't getting defensive...i was just letting you know that i did all that, and if you have any doubts, i have probably already been through it, just ask away. its not that bad, take your time.

when inserting piston wrist pins.
have c clip already installed on the inner
c clip goove. this way when your installing
your wrist pins they stop where they are
suppose to. then install the outer c clip to
retain the wrist pin.

when inserting piston wrist pins.
have c clip already installed on the inner
c clip goove. this way when your installing
your wrist pins they stop where they are
suppose to. then install the outer c clip to
retain the wrist pin.



Godd point! I noticed that when I dropped the pistons out. I had to ask myself what was holding the pistons in place. Sure enough the ideantical circlip were also on the back side.

Thanks,

T

I built over 20 honda Bseries and engine BUILDING IS EASY. Can you read directions to build a table from IKEA? then you can build a engine. just use the helms manuaul...)tech manual for those that are not honda term smart)

If you have never done it before, OR at least watched someone do it many many times... I wouldnt try to tackle this project. Subaru manual help however.

-Mike

I agree; not that we are a special breed, but it helps to know the tricks...some of which are not evident, and too subtle to convey here. If you are hell-bent on assembling the engine yourself, 3 pieces of advice:

1) You cannot be too clean. Your hands, your parts, your workspace. Clean, clean, clean.

2) Check and re-check, then check again. Have a friend check. Be paranoid.

3) It doesn't matter how technically capable you are, or how many engines you've built....if your machinist is lousy, so too will your engine be. ;)

Good luck to you!

I built over 20 honda Bseries and engine BUILDING IS EASY. Can you read directions to build a table from IKEA? then you can build a engine. just use the helms manuaul...)tech manual for those that are not honda term smart)
We found no results that closely match your search for: helms subaru

Could you be more specific? Are you talking about the factory service manual?

I think "Helms" is an author to the Honda brand as "Bentley" is to VW when it comes to popular repair manuals???

Your level of satisfaction will increase exponentially if you put this project together yourself. There are sources here on the board to get a Subaru manual. Usually the newer models don't show up on aftermarket references for a year or two, but try Mitchell (a company), they may have info.

Go slow, get your buddy to help and get a book. This is the Man thing to do!! <G>.

Mike McBride

Your level of satisfaction will increase exponentially if you put this project together yourself. There are sources here on the board to get a Subaru manual. Usually the newer models don't show up on aftermarket references for a year or two, but try Mitchell (a company), they may have info.

Go slow, get your buddy to help and get a book. This is the Man thing to do!! <G>.

Mike McBride


Hah, I don't know why but that's one of the coolest replies I've seen on Nasioc since I joined 4 years ago. Seems a little philosophical LOL. Fortunately, I've already received several emails and PM's with folks helping me out with manuals etc. I already had an electronic version of an earlier Impreza manual (maybe 1999-2000 models or so) so that helps a lot. Now with the newer version that I have there's absolutely everything on torque specs and pictorials.

Todd

Check your PM's

Ask your Subaru parts dealer for "Fuji Bond" If they don't know what it is then I suggest you find a better dealer or just wander into their service department and talk to one of the "service specialists" (No grease monkeys). Any dealer that has to do service work will know what fuji bond is.

If that fails - Part Number - 004403007 - Fuji bond is your friend

Man, my dealership is clueless (but I resemble that as well sometimes.)

Anyhow, they hadn't heard of Fujibond, so I had to drive back home and print this post out. The stuff they sold me, same part#, was called Super Three Bond.

:)

Edit: In their defense, they sell Audi, L/M, Nissan, and VW; so their parts department guy probably has a rough time keeping up with all the different parts.

Three bond is just as good (if not the same thing) from what I understand. I bought "OEM Black RTV." I wonder if it will do the job as well?

What are you going to be using the RTV for?

Man, my dealership is clueless (but I resemble that as well sometimes.)

Anyhow, they hadn't heard of Fujibond, so I had to drive back home and print this post out. The stuff they sold me, same part#, was called Super Three Bond.

:)

Edit: In their defense, they sell Audi, L/M, Nissan, and VW; so their parts department guy probably has a rough time keeping up with all the different parts.


The manual shows the part number for 3 bond and fuji bond as one and the same from what I recall. Take a look. Three bond is what they use. FWIW, I just got a tube of GM equivalent adhesive today. I'm not certain what the content is but was assured that it was as good as or better.

Update: I should be picking up the machined block tomorrow afternoon :) I can't wait to see it. You know, for the price I was a little skeptical but these guys seem as professional as you could expect a machine shop to be. When I spoke to them today, they sad that they program their machine to the specified diameters and let it go from there. They're obviously using some type of expensive CNC machine. And for those that were wondering, the first thing the machine shop said to me was that the Wiseco pistons were one of the cleanest forged pistons that the had ever seen.

Todd

Awesome.

When you say machined, are you referring to boring out a little or spec'ing or sleeving?

Boring for 100mm (.020 over) pistons. I went with the larger ones on recommendation of the machine shop. They said even though the block looked to be in excellent condition, why not punch it out if I've got the opportunity? So that's what we did. If my math is correct, it will give me a whopping ~25cc in dispalcement. That should bring it right to being a true 2500cc -/+. The performance increase I think would be negligible but any little increase is better than nothing.

That is awesome. Mind if I ask how much they charged you and how much for the custom pistons?

Im not sure what you need help with. The bearings go in pretty straight forward. Little tabs keep them from going in wrong. Be sure to keep your narrow and wide bearings on their respectively sized journals and of course the thrust bearing goes in back. I can try to find a picture of how to apply the sealer between the block halves. It goes around all most all the bolt holes. Make sure you have your 4 O rings in place in the right hand side of the block. After applying sealer and bearings apply oil to bearings then drop the crankshaft onto the right side block with the rods 2 and 4 sticking up (2 should be higher than four). This would be a good time to put a couple more drops of oil on top of the crankshaft journals. You may need to rig up a device to hold the #2 rod up while you lower the right hand block down on to the other half. Once the guide pins are lined up it should be able to be pushed down with a little pressure. Then place your 11 bolts in thier respective places. Keep in mind the long bolts that go into the water jacket will have sealer (rubber lined) washers on them. Then flip the block over and there are 6 more bolts (4 sealer bolts). Then on to the piston install.

Today at work I probably did this 45 times in a 2 hour period, installed about 100 pistons in a 2 hour period, bolted on about 50 sets of heads in another 2 hour period, then ringed 180 pistons for another 2 hours. That was my 8 hours work for today.

Balbino, i think i speak for everyone when i say its great to have you here.

What do you use for assembly lube? Just regular oil?

those rubber lined washers... i didn't see any of those when i took mine apart.

Yes, awesome contribution.
I would be very interested in seeing how exactly the sealer is applied.

those rubber lined washers... i didn't see any of those when i took mine apart.

Do you have it back together yet? There are a total of 6 long block bolts that are inside the coolant passages. These have the rubber and metal washers on them. If they are not used inside the water jacket then coolant will leak into the oil. Yes we use regular motor during assembly. I will try to find a pic of the sealer application. Its interesting to note that our sealer is applied by a robot with an arm that moves in with X Y coordinates like a CNC machine except a hollow needle instead of a cutting tool.

ok, now im freaking out, because i labeled and bagged each thing i took off the motor. i used 75 ziplock bags, an entire sharpie, and a roll of masking tape so i wouldn't mess up. i do not remember any rubber coated washers. im gonna go hit something.

balbino -

you da man! That's some rediculous info :) Anything else you can think of just post it up.


gpatmac -

They're not custom. They're production Wiseco 100mm pistons part #K598M100. Made of 2618 material. I haven't seen them yet but the machine shop guy that I dealing with said they're bad asx. Cost for machining with cleaning is $102. They use an automated process where they dial in the numbers and let the machine go.


attitude -

I don't recall those washers either. I'll have to check tomorrow.

Monday Ill try to get a sealer washer and bolt and take a picture to show you what it looks like. All this talk of building motors is kind of giving me the itch to hand build my own engine. Id have to find something to put it in though.

Balbino, this is a used oil analysys of the factory fill oil. Both Moly and Boron are unusually high. They are both anti-wear additives (they have other benefits too like anti-oxidants). The moly content is higher than what you would see in an oil like redline, which is known for having high moly. If you dont use assembly lube these extra adds must be coming from the oil (a special beefed up factory oil), or any parts in the engine that are coated with moly. Im thinking most of it is coming from the oil because 800ppm is alot of wear.

If this is the case it would probably be a good idea for people to mix an additive into their favorite high quality dino oil when rebuilding, or when changing out the factory fill early.

http://www.smrt.us/FXT/UOA/MY05%20FXT%20-%201128.gif

gpatmac -

They're not custom. They're production Wiseco 100mm pistons part #K598M100. Made of 2618 material. I haven't seen them yet but the machine shop guy that I dealing with said they're bad asx. Cost for machining with cleaning is $102. They use an automated process where they dial in the numbers and let the machine go.


Thanks....damn.:( Missed opportunity.

ok, now im freaking out, because i labeled and bagged each thing i took off the motor. i used 75 ziplock bags, an entire sharpie, and a roll of masking tape so i wouldn't mess up. i do not remember any rubber coated washers. im gonna go hit something.

attitude, I think what balbino is talking about are the actual washers on the six bolts. They appear to be just metal washers, but if you pull them off and look at them, they have like a rubber insert or something in the inner diameter of the washer. That's why they fit so snug on the bolt.


Matt

balbino -

Question on rod play. How much play should a rod be able to move back a fourth (side to side). Say you put your hand on the rod as it's connected to the crank and you attempt to move it in a left to right motion. All of the rods move just a tiny bit like that but will not move if you push them up or down. Is this okay? I've got new main bearings and the crank journals look to be in excellent condition and won't need to be machined. I was going to just check the torque settings on the rods bolts and leave them be. What do you think? FWIW, the rod bearings have ~12k miles on them.

The side to side play of the rods is normal. All of them do it.

attitude, I think what balbino is talking about are the actual washers on the six bolts. They appear to be just metal washers, but if you pull them off and look at them, they have like a rubber insert or something in the inner diameter of the washer. That's why they fit so snug on the bolt.


Matt

i put everything back the way it came off, i guess i just didn't see the insert on the washer. i'm gonna stop freaking out now.

It's easy to miss. If you put them back the way they came off, then there's nothing to worry about. :D

Good info here everyone! This information is likely to help others in similar future situations. Hey, one of those FAQ guys should even attempt to throw together a bottom-end disassembly/assembly overview. The manual is nice but it lacks the real world, touch and feel such as "rubber washers" and "rod play" LOL.

Here are the 4 washers that everyone is talking about circled in yellow with my awesome mspaint skillz. You can also see the mating holes on the other side of the block. This discussion prompted me to find them tonight :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/SloRice/DSCN0475-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/SloRice/DSCN0473-2.jpg

I was wondering do those seal come w/ the subaru gasket kit??

Those are the O-rings. Not the sealer washers we are talking about. We are talking about the washers on the bolts that hold the block together. However I may be able to take that picture and use my own awesome MSPaint skills to show how the sealer (3bond) is supposed to be applied to the block. Ill give it a try and post a pick of the sealerwashers and bolts tomorrow.

slorice -

I thought balbino was talking about different rubber washers. Those are o-rings. Are we all on the same page on the "washers" thing?

T

edit: oops...I didn't see page 2 where this was already answered.

I was wondering do those seal come w/ the subaru gasket kit??

The ones pictured come with the kit to the best of my knowldge.

yes they did.

Im going to try to attach a pic of a bolt with a sealer washer and sealer washer.

http://photobucket.com/albums/y55/balbino12/?action=view&current=Sealerwasherbolt.jpg


I was hoping the pic would show up on the thread but you guys can clicky I guess. How do you get the pic to post up?

balbino - use this link http://imageshack.us/
http://img90.exs.cx/img90/5057/sealerwasherbolt9ae.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
It's free and no sign up. I use it all the time. Once you've created the image with their server you simply copy the address and put it in your post using the image button.

Todd

That sounds remarkably close to what I did. should I have left out the http crap?

Aww, man. I was just up in Lafayette tonight. Shoulda gave you a call.:(

Balbino- thanks for the great info. That would be sweet to see pics of the sealer application.

If you click on the image on the page you linked to (probably right click for you PC guys) and choose "open image in new window", you can copy that http://... and then paste that into the image link.

Yo, seriously would be awesome to see the sealer application tutorial. Hey, I just had an idea. balbino can become the engine building master here ;) That's some good knowledge that he's got and is invaluable to the tech threads. I don't think there's anyone here thatcan come close on the Subaru centricness.

You should have stopped by if you were in Lafayette. I can set you up with a tour of the plant. Youd get to see the Tribeca first hand. Id be happy to share my knowledge here but im far from an expert. I work on the bottom ends and after the heads and oil pump get put on then I really dont know much more than anyone else here.

Im going to try to post a pic of the sealer application with the pic from Slorice. I did it in green so it would be seen easy. Be sure all four O-rings are in place on this block half before putting blocks together.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y55/balbino12/Fujibond.jpg

Interesting side note. The crankshaft will fit in backwards. Ive seen it done.

Bearing Question: This may sound like a 'tard question but should the mating surfaces where you insert the main bearings remain dry of oil or do you apply oil on the surface before the bearing goes in? I would suspect that they go in dry. Seems that if there was oil on the surfaces that would increase the chance for a bearing to go awry?

Sealer Question: Okay, I see in the pictorial where the sealer goes in. Do you also apply the sealer to the o-rings?

i think i read no in the manual, but someone else back me up on this please.

1) Bearing Question: This may sound like a 'tard question but should the mating surfaces where you insert the main bearings remain dry of oil or do you apply oil on the surface before the bearing goes in? I would suspect that they go in dry. Seems that if there was oil on the surfaces that would increase the chance for a bearing to go awry?

2) Sealer Question: Okay, I see in the pictorial where the sealer goes in. Do you also apply the sealer to the o-rings?

1) No. The backside of the bearing should be clean as a baby's behind.

2) No. HTH,

Steve :)

Just for clarification, the green lines in my pic posted by balbino are where you are supposed to put the "Fuji Bond"?

You should have stopped by if you were in Lafayette. I can set you up with a tour of the plant. Youd get to see the Tribeca first hand.

:eek:

Talk about visiting Mecca.

Please PM me your ph#. Sometime next month I'll give you a ringading when I'm up north again.

Just for clarification, the green lines in my pic posted by balbino are where you are supposed to put the "Fuji Bond"?

Yes

The bearings go in dry and make sure there is no debris under them. A little oil wont matter because it will get oil underneath anyway. No sealer on O-rings. We do coat the black O-rings with vasiline. I think this is to help them from getting pinched in between the blocks. Im not sure if this is really needed.

gpatmac Ill send you a pm.

Awesome guys. I just picked up the block and pistons about an hour ago. The pistons look amazing, well compared to the cast thingies that were in there :lol: Each piston has been weighed and written on the back of each piston. The skirts are coated. Came with wrist pins, circlips, and hardened rings. All in all, I'm VERY happy with my piston selection. The kit is very professionally put together and has various instructions and a spec card. I couldn't have asked for more.

The block looks good. What can I say really? It's been bored and has similar cross hatching like the OE Subaru cylinders had. They wrote down the clearance was @ 4 thou. Not much to say really to my untrained eye. I just wish that I would have got the rods weighed too but I'm going to be over budget fairly soon and still need more items.

Like I said, tonight I'll get picks of everything for you guys so you can see what I ended up with. I'll try and keep a step by step of the parts going back together. I am in need of another digital camera (mine broke recently) so I will have to borrow my friends for now.

Todd

1) No. The backside of the bearing should be clean as a baby's behind.

2) No. HTH,

Steve :)


Steve,

You sure about that? I've got a 20 month old and his bottom isn't always that clean :p

surely you have a friend who has a tripple beam scale laying around somewhere, for medicinal use, of coure.

I wasn't planning on taking the rods off the crank. If I did, could I re-use the rod bearings, they've got ~12k miles on them? I've already got the main bearings ready to go in but don't think I will be spending another $150-200 in rod bearings. As for a scale, I've never asked anyone if they have one. Would a bathroom scale work (just kidding).

Question: How much of a weight difference is there between the factory rods? Is it negligible? The difference between the pistons is max .7 grams IIRC, which is nothing.

http://img20.exs.cx/img20/3835/picture0017oo.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img20.exs.cx/img20/6617/picture0022vu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img20.exs.cx/img20/8898/picture0042kg.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img20.exs.cx/img20/8976/picture0061ll.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img20.exs.cx/img20/4871/picture0077sk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img20.exs.cx/img20/5351/picture0133md.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us) http://img33.exs.cx/img33/3814/picture0127zg.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img33.exs.cx/img33/1743/picture0190ob.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

P.S. My wife wants this shat out of the living room :lol:

Dude, that is just pure sex.

What's your CR gonna be?

What lays before you is a far greater task than I could hope to accomplish. Good luck.

Well guys, it's 3:15am and I just finished putting the case back together except for the pistons. It was way easier than I thought it was going to be. I followed the directions that I got from everyone here as well as the manual. It was a breeze! Only questionable part of the equation was the sealant and that wasn't bad either. Truth be told, I took a lot of time doing it. I started at midnight so it took me right at 3hrs and I still need to install the pistons and rings. I'll start on the those tomorrow night so I figure about another 2 hrs. I know it seems like a long time but I need to put the rings on the pistons and then insert the pistons and replace the cover plates and service plugs. The only issue I had tonight was the rear crank seal. I need to get another one since this one got crimped and is no longer good. No biggie though.

gpatmac,

Not sure about the CR. To the best of my knowledge it's spec'd like the 99.5mm stock sized ones, only difference is the diameter. So if anything, it won't be any higher than 8.7:1 if not a more likely 8.6:1

I've got more pics but need to sleep.

good luck tmarcel,
Take some rest and then post more pics. :)
Your cylinder bore shines like a mirror.
Just received my superzilla 55lbs but they forgot
to mail me the tial wastegate :(

Here's a few more of it going back together. I forgot to take one of the sealer being applied. You'll just have to imagine how it went in. Just make sure you keep it away from the bearing ends as it'll squeeze out once the bolts are torqued down. The bearings went in without a hitch. I was afraid that they might bend when pushing on them but they are pretty rigid. I made extra sure the mating surfaces were all VERY dry and free of foreign matter. I then poured 5-30w synthetic (I didn't have any dino) down in the bearing holes and openings before the crank was dropped in. I had to be a little creative in getting the block halves back together. I didn't have another set of hands so I held the crank in on the #2 and 4 case side and flipped it up-side down. With the #1 and 3 rods hanging down. I slowly and carefully guided it down in and onto the other block half. Once I was confident that it was seated, I then took the small wood block that you see in one of the pics below and tapped down on it until it was all the way seated. I then installed the shorter outer bolts around the block and tighened in an alphabetical manner per the manual. Once those were down. I finished up with long bolts that go inside the water jackets and then the remaining ones.

http://img227.exs.cx/img227/8753/set0014ia.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img227.exs.cx/img227/5258/set0050dd.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img227.exs.cx/img227/7288/set0064fb.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img227.exs.cx/img227/7644/set0083ax.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

I'll get more of the piston rings going on and then installing the pistons tonight.

Steve,

You sure about that? I've got a 20 month old and his bottom isn't always that clean :p

I feel you. My GF's 20 month old is cutting teeth. Can you say runny green stuff? :lol:

Looks like a fine finish on the cylinders; are you using a Plasma moly coated top comp ring? I'd check. If I'm not mistaken, the STD.-style "chrome" rings are much harder and require a coarser finish on the cylinder walls.

For future reference: Be careful with the rings. Buy the best ring compressor you can afford. I prefer the tapered one-piece style, but I had to machine my own due to the lack of availability. Take your time, and do not let the rings hang up on the top of the bore; Plasma moly rings' coating can flake off if you're too rough. Next time: Get a bottle of Clevite assembly lube. It works fabulously, and I like it far better than oil. Use two pairs of old socks covered in plastic baggies to protect the cylinder walls when assembling the two block halves; you don't want to ding the finish. Looks good, good job.

S.

Thanks, Steve. Looks like I'll be a real engine builder here (yeah right :) ). Like I said above it wasn't all that bad. I just read through gpatmac's thread again where you guys were talking about the piston and ring install and this might be a little more frustrating?? I'll know soon enough though huh.

Couple of questions for you though. Wiseco states that "pin offset must be installed opposite of the engine rotation". Is this just making sure that they're installed right side up, meaning that the wiriting on the piston is not upside down? The other question is, you guys were talking about "ring gap". Am I missing something or is it not as simple as placing the rings on the piston or do I need to do something else to them? Hopefully that makes since.

Todd

Im not sure what "opposite of crank rotation" means. But at the factory the DOHC pistons cant go in wrong as long as the front marks are towards the front of the engine. I cant say for sure about your rings, but the factory compression and scraper rings have a top and a bottom. The tops are marked with an "R" on factory rings.

b -

It appears that the stock pistons have a fatter ring in the middle (scraper I think it's called) than the one on the top? Is this right? My rings have the letter "N" on both of them but they are clearly different from each other in color and width. Also, when the pistons go in, didn't one of you guys mention that the dot (divot) on the piston needs to be on the left?

I actually just got off the phone with the Wiseco tech line and they gave me a tutorial on installing the rings so I'm straight now. They basically said to assume nothing and check everything over thouroughly (clyinder bores, pistons, rings etc).

On the ring install, he said to fit each ring individually to their repective cylinders and measure the end gaps with a feeler gauge. I also found an online tutorial from some racing website so I've got a few pics to guide me.

This doesn't seem to complicated, just time consuming.

Here's a few pics of the rings close up. FWIW, I rented a cheapey ring comp from Autozone. I was about to buy one and the guy talked me into just renting/borrowing thiers - go figure :huh: It actually worked fine. I had a scare with one of the oil ring rails but otherwise is cool. I'll post more of the finished short block tomorrow. I'm finished except for a little mishap. Pistons one and two, somehow, got a wrist pin and circlips but are not connected :furious: No biggie though. I'll finish that up in the next 30 min. Everything looks good. I think she's going to be a ringer :devil: For anyone wondering, you can do this if you can cook! It's simply following directions. Easy but time consuming.

I found a tutorial on building a racing engine and these guys debur the 1st and 2nd rings edges with 400 grit sandpaper and follow up with a light Scotchbrite buff. You then do this on the inside of the ring lands. This took me about an extra hour working slowly. Engine building takes patience.

Todd

http://img213.exs.cx/img213/9076/set10016kh.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img213.exs.cx/img213/7091/set10029oh.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img213.exs.cx/img213/8992/set10030he.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img213.exs.cx/img213/7441/set10043mk.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Its nice to see that my old block is in good hands now ! Very nice build up !

Hi Dave,

Yep, thanks for the nice SB. I'm going to be very happy with it. It's just a matter of time now until I get everything swapped over. I may start removing the current 2L this weekend. I will probably take two weeks to get everything swapped over. I'm going to get the heads mildly decked and I'm seriously thinking of attempting to increase the intake port size on my own. From the data that I've seen, the WRX heads need to have the intake ports opened up about 20cc. If I can figure out an efficient way to measure the ports I'll be all over it.

Anyhow, I'm done except for the rear seal. It only took two nights (about 6.5hrs total assembly time) aside from having to have the block opened up and ordering the piston kit. All in all not a bad project.

Here's the finished pics.

Todd

http://img73.exs.cx/img73/9493/set20018gu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img73.exs.cx/img73/8054/set20037rm.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)
http://img73.exs.cx/img73/637/set20043vp.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Good choice on the pistions. I believe they (wiseco) are the only ones made for subarus that have an offset wrist pin. (like the factory pistions)

This should help with some of the noise that you hear in other subaru engines with aftermarket forged pistions.

codean,

Funny you mention that. I had to call their tech line yesterday with various questions. I asked him about noise from the pistons pre-expansion and if the 4 thou wall clearance might be too much. He replied that noise was a function more of skirt design (or lack there of) and wrist pin off set. He said the Wiescos were typically quiter because of this so we'll see. You know I wonder why no else is running these on nasioc. I searched and out of more than 80k members looks like I'm the only one?

On a side note, the piston rings that they sent were pefectly matched. I measured each top and second ring inside the cylinders and eveyone one measured a perfect .016 gap (they recommend .04 for every inch of dameter).

Todd

Great info Todd!!! I've been stalking your threads lately b/c I'm coming to this time very soon. My block, heads, rods and crank are all at the machine shop getting cleaned, honed and magnafluxed right now. The parts I ordered from Subaru are coming in today and my pistons, head studs and rings should be in next week. So I'm hoping to have a built long block in 2 weeks at most.

Keep up the good work!
Tim

I also didn't know there was a difference between the Wiseco's and the CP Pistons. I got the CP Pistons b/c more people here use them and have good luck with them. Could you explain the differences a little more.

Great info Todd!!! I've been stalking your threads lately b/c I'm coming to this time very soon. My block, heads, rods and crank are all at the machine shop getting cleaned, honed and magnafluxed right now. The parts I ordered from Subaru are coming in today and my pistons, head studs and rings should be in next week. So I'm hoping to have a built long block in 2 weeks at most.

Keep up the good work!
Tim


Tim,

Are you doing the build? You should since you've already got this far. You can do it! :) BTW, you doing rod bearings too? I decided against it since mine only had like 12k miles. Plus, I'm close to budget already and still need a $500 clutch, about another $300 in OE gaskets and odds and ends, and I'll have the heads decked for about another $150.

Todd

Tim,

I wish I could give you a snap shot or a fact sheet of both but I don't have enough info to do that. From what I can tell:

1.) CP is 2618 forged/ Wiseco is 2618 forged (seems to be the more desireable forging metal over 4032)
2.) CP dish other specs??? (anyone can add here)/ Wiseco is spec'd like stock except I went with the 100mm diameter only difference
3.) CP Skirt design unknown and not coated/ Wiseco Skirt design is supposed to be designed for quiter operation (so I was told by their tech) and comes out of the box coated
4.) CP wrist pin design unknown/ Wiseco wrist pin design offset like Subarus
5.) CP comes only pistons/ Wiseco comes in full PNP (plung-n-play) kit with pistons, wrist pins, Subaru OE cir clips, and hardned rings with a high perf oil ring expander and rails.

Other differences? I'm not up to par on the tech specs enough to say. Anybody else want to jump in please be my guest ;)

Todd

CP pistons have a centered wrist pin.

The whole point of having an offset wrist pin is to take away some of the stress being put on the thrust side of the piston. Instead of the piston slamming into the cyl wall during the power stroke, the rod gets more of the stress (where it should be) and helps prevent piston slap which can harm you engine. What also doesn't help is vendors selling CP pistions as a direct drop in with no machining to match pistion to wall clearances.

If I was going to put pistions in a 257 I would try the wiseco :)

so do you guys think I should cancel my CP order and go with Wiscos?

I would say to take the above data that codean and I posted, check the validity of what we're saying and this way you'll walk away with an educated decision. Furthermore, give CP and Wiseco a call. Ask to speak to their tech lines. Wiesco didn't mind answering all of my questions each time I called and were knowledgeable of course. I was such a noob yesterday when I had to ask about the piston ring install and the guy completely gave me the low down on measuring, testing, and installing the rings. He didn't even laugh ;)

Now if you're getting the CP's from Crawford, he is a great guy to deal with so if you had any problems he would take care of you I'm certain. Had he sold the Wiseco's I would have bought them from him for sure (hint hint). I've talked to Quirt twice and both times he was very professional and knowledgeable. I don't know anything about CP's tech line or customer service if you're purchasing them direct.

Wiseco info:
Piston Specs - http://www.wiseco.com/PDFcatalogs/SC05_subaru.pdf

FAQ's:http://www.wiseco.com/second.asp?main=faqs/faqs.html&side=secondfaq.html

Pics of the Wiseco's are obviously above. I got my kit from Flat Lander Racing. You can also purchase them directly through Wiseco. That might be a good idea so you would be dealing with them directly instead of a reseller. You will pay a little more though. With shipping, my kit was $475. Through Wiseco direct, it would've been $475 plus shipping so about $500.

Got 'er on the stand. Just a matter of weeks till it's together.

http://img174.exs.cx/img174/8624/set49iy.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

so do you guys think I should cancel my CP order and go with Wiscos?

That’s hard to say.

Wiscos are not really proven in Subaru engines yet. However I think they will do very well.

If you do choose to get the CP pistons be smart, get an oversize and have the block machined. Otherwise its just a craps shoot for fitment.

And to add to that, it would be a good time to bore the cylinders as your block is now "broken in". Several sources have told me that new blocks can be a concern since the metal hasn't been through heat cyclying, which can later lead to ovaling or variations in roundness. This way, you start off with a fresh, round cylinder and no need to worry.

CP pistons have a centered wrist pin.

The whole point of having an offset wrist pin is to take away some of the stress being put on the thrust side of the piston. Instead of the piston slamming into the cyl wall during the power stroke, the rod gets more of the stress (where it should be) and helps prevent piston slap which can harm you engine. What also doesn't help is vendors selling CP pistions as a direct drop in with no machining to match pistion to wall clearances.

If I was going to put pistions in a 257 I would try the wiseco :)

Couldn't have stated it any better.

Another bit to ponder: Wiseco wasn't the first to offset the pin....IMO they copied a guy's design. "Knock' limiting" design. Think Nathan. Fantastic builder....Magnus.

S.

OK, another question I’ve been pondering lately. How do you prime the oil pump? Obviously you want oil primed into the entire motor before starting it up. Just curious.

OK, another question I’ve been pondering lately. How do you prime the oil pump? Obviously you want oil primed into the entire motor before starting it up. Just curious.

Disconnect the fuel pump. ;) Seriously.

You can also unplug the ignition fuse.

Disconnect the fuel pump. ;) Seriously.

Well that's an interesting proposition. I guess that would work.

Also, since I started debating on the CP vs. Wiseco thing, I decided to give Wiseco a call to ask a few questions and get a delivery timeframe. Wiseco made my decision - they won't have any EJ257 pistons for about 4 or 5 weeks.....to much downtime for me as my CP's are coming in this week. So I'm going with the CP's.

Another update on the piston debate...besides Wiseco being out 4-5 weeks, my CP's showed up today :D

sorry for the big pics, but it gives you the full effect of their bling :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/SloRice/pistons001-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/SloRice/pistons002-2.jpg

^^^

Yep to both of those. There are several different ways to crank the engine without it firing.

Tim,

That's crazy! Flat Lander Racing told me the same thing originally. I began to worry that I was not going to get them. I had a bright idea to call Wiesco directly. The first person I spoke to said that they had many, many kits that were just inventoried in. She said that when Flat Lander sent the P.O. in for them and that their (Wiesco) system probably showed that they were out. However, that was not the case. Anyhow, if you change your mind I'm sure that they still have them. I don't see how they could've sold out so quickly.

Todd


P.S. The CP's look nice, but codean got me thinking about this offset deal. Makes since to me.

as far as the offset goes, I can't believe that ~0.06" offset of the wristpin can cause that big of a difference. If its just mainly noise during cold running, I can handle it. But based on basic mechanics and geometry, I wouldn't think moving the wrist pin ~0.06" to the side would deflect that much force from the piston into the rod.

as far as the offset goes, I can't believe that ~0.06" offset of the wristpin can cause that big of a difference. If its just mainly noise during cold running, I can handle it. But based on basic mechanics and geometry, I wouldn't think moving the wrist pin ~0.06" to the side would deflect that much force from the piston into the rod.


.060" does make a difference. Is it as much difference as others' designs? I don't know, because that's still a closely guarded secret.

Maybe one of our resident MEs can expound on the torque placed on a rod / piston skirt given the differences in the two...it can be proven, but if you want the math, it will take a while.

S.

well, I am a ME...so I guess I could do it :p

well, I am a ME...so I guess I could do it :p

Well then, give yourself three hard slaps on the face.....and get your calculator out. It jives. I promise. I'm going to guess 20% difference...let me know how close I come. ;)

S.

I am curious how the crank should "feel" (ie tight/loose) when you put the halves back together with new main bearings. I had to put the crank pulley on the shaft to be able to turn the crank (without pistons on it yet). Is that normal? It seemed that when I pulled my WRX motor, it was the same way. It's not real tight or "catchy," but it doesn't exactly spin on its own, either.

I 'think' that the crank doesn't turn easily when new. My doesn't seem to atleast with piston and rings. I have to use a ratchet on the crank pulley bolt to be able to turn it. The weird thing is that you can hear compression when you turn it and no heads??? Really weird. It's like pressure is able to build inside the block and then it leaks down slowly.

Loaded Q: Did you guys mic the mains and block?

I'd ask Quirt or Marco if it were an issue.

If you mic'd everything, and your clearances were spot on, then the only issue I could think of off the top would be your block might need a line hone...but I'm tired, and I've never heard of a EJ needing that procedure.

IIRC, the last one (EJ22) I assembled, the 205 out of my car (good engine), and the 257 I tore down did not spin "freely" either. It's smooth, but you couldn't turn it by hand.

S.

Loade

IIRC, the last one (EJ22) I assembled, the 205 out of my car (good engine), and the 257 I tore down did not spin "freely" either. It's smooth, but you couldn't turn it by hand.

S.


Yeah, mine seems the same, no hangs or anything like that. It turns with a little force but not 'by hand'. Honestly, I had to think twice about the install but realized later that there was no other better way for the crank to sit down in the bearings. FWIW, I used std size bearings if that matters. My crank journals looked new and based on my friends recommendation that's why I used the std ones. I really trust my friend's judgement (he's an engineer and trainer for steam and nuclear power plant simulators and has built several engines - smart, smart dude!).

Even the go-kart single cylinder motors I use for SAE don't turn by hand unless you really muscle the hell out of them :)

Sounds normal.

At the factory, right after the block halves are bolted together the last thing the guy does is to reach down and give the crank a turn by hand. This is before the pistons are installed. It is supposed to be able to be turned by hand. If one of the rods is laying up against the side of the cylinder sometimes the rod bolts can "hang" on the block so make sure that is not the case. If the crank does not turn by hand a hand crank is used to try to see if it will loosen up. If the crank is tight then a pin is pushed on the pallet and the engine gets diverted into a repair area where it is disassembled.

Hmmm.....I had to use both hands on the crankshaft pulley to turn mine, and that is without pistons. There is no way I could just turn it with my hands. I had the crank mic'd..it was ok'd for standard bearings.

Nevermind my last post, I've got a problem that I overlooked....

Get a torque wrench and test the amount of force required to turn over the complete shortblock a chevy 454 will turn over at 37ft.lbs. Depending what you have for coatings your engine should turn over in the low to mid twenties I imagine.

Nevermind my last post, I've got a problem that I overlooked....
What's up?

I was schooled on the fact that you can't use a phase II crank on a phase one block. I should have remembered that, but I overlooked it. 50 lashes for me. :o
My original crank from the 2.2t that I am putting together turned out to be slightly out-of-round on a couple rod journals. I tried to stuff my WRX crank into the block, which is why it is not rotating so freely. Crawford happen to have the 2.2t crank for super cheap compared to what is being charged for other cranks. Sooooo more waiting.

I remembering reading an article a while back. It stated something along the lines of the phase I having the thrust bearing in the center of the crank and the phase II had it at the end? Was this the problem?

Yeah, the thrust bearing is in center on the phase I. It most likely is the reason why. You can still put it in the block but obviously it wont fit correctly.

did anyone happen to save the picture balbino posted on page 3 that shows where to apply the Fuji-Bond between the two block halves? I'm hoping to start my reassembly tonight and that would be a good picture to have.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/741523/Fujibond.jpg

awesome!!

thanks

tmarcel, I think I saw the same problem with your motor build up too, but not sure. We installed the rear oil seal around the crank in to far which will block the “galley way” and not allow oil to go back into the oil pan. This will cause this seal to leak….like mine. So we are going to pull the motor back out AGAIN today and redo that seal.

Check out my mad mspaint skillz for a more visual experience….

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/SloRice/tmarcel-enginehalves.jpg

Tim,

Holy crap man, that really sucks for you! Did you put the crank seal in when you put the block halves together or did you put it in after the two sides were completed bolted up? I haven't put the rear seal in mine yet as my order got 'backordered' through Subaru distribution for some reason (it should be here today). The manual shows the tech using a special Subaru branded tool to knock the rear seal in. Did you follow the manual. I don't have that tool so I'll have to improvise. I hope I don't have an issue. I may kill myself is I have to pull the engine back out :lol:

Let me know.

Todd

I honestly can’t remember how/when we put the seal in. But I bought gasket and seal rebuild kit which for some odd reason came with 3 of this seal. So if I destroy this one getting it out, no big deal….I got two more.

Ahh you let your buddy install it :lol: Or at least that's what you can tell people.

So you just have to make sure the seal is flush with the block, then?

yea, just make sure its flush with the block. I got it started going in with my fingers, then used a rubber mallet and worked my way around till it was as flush as I could get it with the block. I think mines sticks out 1/8 inch at most.

If you put you engine together and you cant turn the crank by hand easily (no pistons) then something is very wrong. People need to watch the advice they shell out. :mad:

Can you explain the face? when we built my motor, I wan't able to turn it by hand with the pistons in - had to put to flywheel bolts in and use a breaker bar wedged between them to turn it.. But when we pulled the motor out for the 2nd time to change the rear seal, I was able to turn it.

Oh and by the way....we are getting good at pulling that motor. My buddy and I pulled the motor in an hour and 15 minutes...from the car to the ground....motor mounts, tranny bolts, wiring, radiator, everything!! :banana:

Hey wow! I got her running a couple of days ago and I now have about 5 miles on her (three quick drives). Well, at .4-45K cyl/bore clearance the Wiescos are making a little piston slap until warm, at which point they go fairly quite. I haven't put many miles on yet as I'm re-installing gauges etc.h

Awesome!

Congratulations, dude.

I'm curious. Would you say that the slap is annoying or something you barely notice? You wouldn't happen to have an oil temp gauge would you? I'm curious at what point the slap stops.

I actually do have an oil temp gauge :) BUT I broke the probe when I last removed the oil plug so I've got to source another and re-tap the oil plug (that or use a heli coil in it). So I don't have an answer about the temp for now.

On the piston slap cold starts it probably lasts about 90-120 seconds before it desipates. It sounds like a diesel engine to me :lol: but to a non-car guy they probably wouldn't even notice it.

the slap is noticeable, but I wouldn't say it's annoying. Just something you know is there till the car warms up. I don't think the oil temp is that warm yet when they stop slapping. Because my oil pressure when I first start the car is ~7 bar and the slap is gone by the time it hits ~4 bar. When the car is warm, it idles around 1 bar. Basically the piston just needs to heat up and expand a little bit then it's good to go.

Just something you get used to I guess. Whenever people ride in my car for the first time they always comment on something - exhaust is loud, interior creeks, clunky rear suspension, etc., etc. I'm just so used to all of it that it doesn't even phase me anymore :lol:

Thanks much fellas.

Well guys, here's the deal. I've got 32 miles on it now and I get smoke screens (white'ish smoke) when I step on the gas (NOT going over 4k rpms for now) and as soon as the engine sees boost I'm getting smoke. AFR's aren't great but should be sufficient. I checked the FMIC plumbing and absolutely zero oil inside. The only thing I will try is letting out like a quart of oil. I over filled it by accident.

I just read this:
White smoke: White smoke is caused by water and or antifreeze entering the cylinder, and the engine trying to burn it with the fuel. The white smoke is steam. There are special gaskets (head gaskets are the primary gaskets) that keep the antifreeze from entering the cylinder area. The cylinder is where the fuel and air mixture are being compressed and burned. Any amount of antifreeze that enters this area will produce a white steam that will be present at the tailpipe area.

I really freaking hope this goes away soon. I sure as hell do not want to pull the engine out. I know I torqued the heads down per the manual with new head gasket so I don't know.

Any ideas???

I also found this advice for testing the head hasket for leaks.

Remove all of the spark plugs. Pressurize the radiator with approximately 15 pounds of pressure and wait for approximately ½ hour to 1 hour then crank the engine over and watch to see if coolant comes out of the spark plug holes. This will tell you if your problem is a head gasket or possibly a cracked head.

Anyone tried this? How would you rig up a way to fill the radiator w/15psi? I guess maybe take a radiator cap and modify it?

Well guys, I just learned what the problem was. Well not a problem but installer error. I had a hose (the one that t's into the PCV breather) going into my oil catch tank. Guess what, it doesn't work like that :lol: Hence the reason for James Bond/007-like smoke screens. I disconnected it from the catch tank and routed back to an extra port that I had on the intake and now ZERO smoke. I got to admit though, all the things running through my mind were worrying me. This is my first build (not just swapping heads but a ground up build) so I was worried a little. Hell, I was even contemplating taking it back out this weekend and I sure as hell didn't want to do that (I'm not a mechanic 'ya know).

I've got 40 miles on it now and may drive it on a 1 hour business trip in the morning just to put a few miles on it.

Todd

My only question is, due to having a higher producing engine, pushing the oil/vapor from the PCV back into the intake (like the stock setup does); are you worried about that sludge hitting the compressor?

I have been kicking around the idea of doing another catchcan of some sort.

My own experiences are what are leading me to saying that. I had so much blowby (I believe) coming out of the PCV that it kept pooling on top of my block. At the time, though, I didn't realize where it was coming from.

I don't know man. I can play around with this a little more and see what happens. At this point running it back into the vent tube together to the catch can did not work at all. Under boost it was blowwing it back into the intake. That's what was causing the smoke. Now running another catch tank is an idea so maybe I can try that. That should probably work too.

i have both breathers coming from the heads, and the pcv as well going to my catch can. no problems so far. how did you have them plumbed?

I don't know man. I can play around with this a little more and see what happens. At this point running it back into the vent tube together to the catch can did not work at all. Under boost it was blowwing it back into the intake. That's what was causing the smoke. Now running another catch tank is an idea so maybe I can try that. That should probably work too.

<cough> vacuum pump <cough>

<sneeze> load the rings, no steady rpms <sneeze>

:D Good job.

S.

<cough> vacuum pump <cough>

<sneeze> load the rings, no steady rpms <sneeze>

:D Good job.

S.


Steve,

Can you elaborate. From the way I interpret what's happening, it would seem that the vent coming off the valve cover which tied back into the CC breather must've been blowing back into the CC and/or intake manifold. Is that what you think was happening? All that I know know is that I 100% fixed it by pulling that tube off and back into the intake. What do you think?

i have both breathers coming from the heads, and the pcv as well going to my catch can. no problems so far. how did you have them plumbed?

I have to admit my ineptitude here.;)

I had both heads and the cc breather on the pass side both routed to the catch can. The cc breather that was in the top/middle of the block I had plugged. I tried that for a few months but it didn't correct the 'leak'. I then routed both of the cc breathers to the cc. Still the problem wasn't corrected.

I never had the PCV that's behind the throttle body on the intake mani routed to anything...because I never realized it was there. Somehow or another, I assumed that the 'Y' that's plugged into that passenger side cc breather was my PCV, so the actual PCV was vented completely to atmoshpere.

I'm a little red in the face, especially if I am able to conclude that this somehow contributed or was the direct cause of the ringland breaking (due to too much blowby.) I know that that may make no sense; that the two may be completely unrelated, but I still haven't been able to conclusively conclude what the direct or indirect cause of the piston failure was.

Good to see it's running. If it were me, I'd leave it alone for now, get everything else finalized, clean up the car, and enjoy it for a month or two :)

Steve,

Can you elaborate. From the way I interpret what's happening, it would seem that the vent coming off the valve cover which tied back into the CC breather must've been blowing back into the CC and/or intake manifold. Is that what you think was happening? All that I know know is that I 100% fixed it by pulling that tube off and back into the intake. What do you think?

Sure, re: PCV......http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667007&highlight=goodbye

I'm not a big fan of the stock PCV design.

Regarding break-in: Highway, constant rpm driving is one of the worst techniques for engine break in. You need to place a load on the rings.

HTH

S.

Good to see it's running. If it were me, I'd leave it alone for now, get everything else finalized, clean up the car, and enjoy it for a month or two :)


That's what I'm thinking too :) Believe me, the car had just 29k miles on it more than a year ago. Today, it still is at 29k something. I really haven't driven it much. After I finish up cutting the front bumper beam and replace the bumper (hopefully tonight) I will address waxing/buffing the exterior and then move on to the interior. I'm not too worried about tuning for now as I'm not taking her past 4k and the turbo is large enough that I'm not getting a lot of boost down low anyway. AFR I've got down to 14.7:1 to 12.8:1 by 4k.

Sure, re: PCV......http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667007&highlight=goodbye

I'm not a big fan of the stock PCV design.

Regarding break-in: Highway, constant rpm driving is one of the worst techniques for engine break in. You need to place a load on the rings.

HTH

S.


Whoa, that's a lot of reading :huh: I'll have to get to that shortly. You don't think anything got screwed up the way I running it though?? It seems fine but...

BTW, I never drove the car this morning as I still need to evacuate the AC system and get the moisture out (it's hot here in NC - heat index is 100f today). My friend is going to help me with that (he's got shop tools) this weekend. And then recharge the system.

So on the break-in, are you talking no boost load (could be low rpms) or load under boost (did that make since)? Man, even at 28 deg ignition advance at 2k rpms this thing has power :) On the old 2.0L, I could never do that. Pretty cool.

So on the break-in, are you talking no boost load (could be low rpms)

No. I like 70-80% boost @ 70-80% rpm range....there is little load without boost ;) Run it HARD.

HTH

S.

I'm not trying to be mean or sarcastic, but you might want to think about having something of this magnitude professionally done. Lots of potential for things to go wrong if you never built an engine before... jmho. Hope everything works out for you if you do decide to build it yourself.


Haha, I was just looking back through this thread and you had the first post. After 150 miles now all is good. Building an engine isn't rocket science. You just need to be extremely clean and thorough. And, make sure that you have the block bored by a good shop etc. Basically cover your bases. I re-shimed the heads and had them rebuilt as well.

Just an update. I'm beginning to think I should've gone with less piston clearance. I think the bore clearance is on the positive side of 4 thou clearance. It's not that bad but as I've got a few more miles on it now (~300 miles) the diesel sound seems a little more pronounced or maybe my ears are just becoming more tuned into the engine noise :) I wasn't exactly building this engine to handle 40+ psi so maybe a better clearnace for a street car would've been about 3-4 thou with the Wiescos.

Just an update. I'm beginning to think I should've gone with less piston clearance. I think the bore clearance is on the positive side of 4 thou clearance. It's not that bad but as I've got a few more miles on it now (~300 miles) the diesel sound seems a little more pronounced or maybe my ears are just becoming more tuned into the engine noise :) I wasn't exactly building this engine to handle 40+ psi so maybe a better clearnace for a street car would've been about 3-4 thou with the Wiescos.


If you're at say, .0045", you wouldn't even notice a difference @ .004"...or .0035". You're okay, IMO.

Forged pistons are louder than hyper or cast, even at .002" (which I would not recommend) ;)

Give us an idea of the nature of the noise.

S.

I pretty sure the "diesel noise" is normal. Mine does it and seems to run good. Even did a comp. check and they all were in the mid 130's. I think it's just the forged pistons...they make more noise.

I have to agree with that. Mine are noisier then all hell (diesel is a very good description), but it runs/pulls nice, and all cyl. comp test between 135-140. Just that boxer thing I guess.

Glad to hear your setup continues to run well, Todd. That's got to be a great ride.

Guys, I've got some troubling things happening. Today, at the fabricator, he said he thought that the motor sounded strange and "off". I knew this guy was good and after many hours of speaking with him (I've known him for a while now and he's done work for us in the past) he devulged his days at Callaway and when they designed and built the (x)10 Austin Martin engines destined for Petite Lemans cars.

Well, I think he was onto something. After fab'ing up a new intake and hotside IC piping, we then played with the crankcase venting and valve cover ventng hoses. He noticed that the center hose on the crankcase (the one on the 2.5 block) was sputturing oil and positive pressure even at idle.

I re-started it and it immediately died. Keep in mind that now the MAF is a little further from the turbo (this actually helps). It idles so so at this point but on the way home it began to flicker the oil light. My last engine died from a failed oil pump! I recognized the difficulty to idle and flickering oil light. Plus, it seems the increase of engine noise it's a likely hood as well.

Needless to say, I'm switching out the pump. Yep, I don't have an oil pressure gauge but you bet I will be getting one! Hell, hopefully nothing catostrophic has happened to the bottom-end. The heads sound excellent, it's just the bottom-end for now.

I'll let ya know when I switch out the pump tomorrow.

Todd

Damn, that sucks :(

oh dear

Yep, I I'll let you guys know. I hope it should be okay. The oil light was only coming on at low/idle rpms. I'm still pissed that I didn't put a oil pressure gauge.

On a side note, could one of you guys that have easy access to the CC breather in the center of the 257 block pull that hose off and let me know how much pulsing/positive pressure you've got at idle. That would be helpful.

They didn't have another pump in stock so they guaranteed me another one by Friday (replacing under warranty since it was new). I will also cut open my oil filter and see if anything is in there that may have lead to the demise of the pump.

They didn't have another pump in stock so they guaranteed me another one by Friday (replacing under warranty since it was new). I will also cut open my oil filter and see if anything is in there that may have lead to the demise of the pump.


I'm pulling for you; generally oil pump failures are :(

I'd be sure to keep the old pump. ;)

Good luck!

S.

I'm pulling for you; generally oil pump failures are :(

I'd be sure to keep the old pump. ;)

Good luck!

S.

Yo Steve, either I'm not too quick or your replies can sometimes have some sort of innuendo tied in ;) Why keep the old pump (but I think I know where you may be going with this)?

Thanks,

Todd

finally replaced my coil packs. but fuse SBF#5 still blowing. it happens when i hit a bump or stall it. so something is loose somewhere. any thoughts about that fuse?

Okay, I just changed the oil/filter and here's where I'm at with this. Basically, I'm beginning to think that the pump has not failed but is WEAK. Of course, with these rotated mount turbo set ups, you sacrifice some of the intake length between the turbo inlet and the MAF. What this does is create a stumble when you let the clutch out from a cruise and when the motor stumbles and searches for an idle this is when the oil pressure light begins to flicker or become solid until the rpms come back up. It is more pronounced when the oil is hot vs warm or just plain cold start up. Also, the knocking piston slap seems to be worse when the engine has really heated up. Is this normal?? Should I run a thicker oil as well?

I still think that I should replace the pump (got a new one coming anyways). Again, I am getting some mild knocking/and or piston slap and am not completely convinced that it's normal forged piston slap (but I do not know for sure). Depending on where the cylinders were bored could make a huge difference on bore cleanrance, i.e at ABDC (OR) ATDC....

finally replaced my coil packs. but fuse SBF#5 still blowing. it happens when i hit a bump or stall it. so something is loose somewhere. any thoughts about that fuse?


Looking at the manual, that fuse has something to do with the fuel pump/fueling. I don't know why it would be blowing out though.

i chased the fuel pump problem, took it out and put it back in, made sure nothing was borked...tomorrow is another day...

Okay, I just changed the oil/filter and here's where I'm at with this. Basically, I'm beginning to think that the pump has not failed but is WEAK. ........I still think that I should replace the pump (got a new one coming anyways).

You're guessing until you get a pressure gauge. I'd make that priority one.


Again, I am getting some mild knocking/and or piston slap and am not completely convinced that it's normal forged piston slap (but I do not know for sure). Depending on where the cylinders were bored could make a huge difference on bore cleanrance, i.e at ABDC (OR) ATDC....

Do what? :lol: You lost me there. "Depending on where the cylinders were bored?" Your piston to wall clearance is measured at the bottom of the skirt. The cylinder is bored throughout based on this measurement. If you already know this, please forgive me.

Get a oil pressure gauge on it asap.

S.

You're guessing until you get a pressure gauge. I'd make that priority one.




Do what? :lol: You lost me there. "Depending on where the cylinders were bored?" Your piston to wall clearance is measured at the bottom of the skirt. The cylinder is bored throughout based on this measurement. If you already know this, please forgive me.

Get a oil pressure gauge on it asap.

S.

I guess that was a little confusing. I think you're right and that's what I thought orginially until I spoke to someone that said the shop could've measured at the top of the bore rather than the bottom. That's probably not the case though. I'll call just to check. And yes, I will get a gauge ASAP. I don't have one just laying around so I will see if I can hunt one down locally. I would like to get it on by tomorrow.

I don't have one just laying around so I will see if I can hunt one down locally. I would like to get it on by tomorrow.

Let me know if I can help....mine's not going anywhere for a while. :lol:

Next week's priorities:

1) Pistons return from Swain Tech

2) Balance assy

3) Final hone on block

4) Send Hydra off to EMS fro latest sfw

The list goes on.... :lol:

S.

Let me know if I can help....mine's not going anywhere for a while. :lol:

Next week's priorities:

1) Pistons return from Swain Tech

2) Balance assy

3) Final hone on block

4) Send Hydra off to EMS fro latest sfw

The list goes on.... :lol:

S.

You know I think we talked about this before, but the suspence would be killing me :D I don't see how you've got so much patience. Do you just have some other cool cars to drive around or what :lol:

Do you just have some other cool cars to drive around or what :lol:

Yeah, a 2004 Echo, and a 1986 Suburban. :lol:

Let's just say I'm not in any big hurry to build a 10-11 second car that's a pain in the a$$ to work on. ;)

Question on the oil pump.....we have a mechanical oil pump that's driven straight off the crank. How does this pump go out?? Also, how would you know??

Good question, SloRice. My oil dummy light has started to flicker at idle (especially when the motor is really hot). It doesn't do it when cold or even just warm. It went from a on and off flickering when rpms would drop to idle and now the light is more prone to just staying on with a slight flickering mixed in at idle.

Believe it or not, I actually trust this dummy light that something is not right, i.e. low oil pressure. My last engine died from a completely failed pump. The dummy light began to flicker the same way and I disregarded it as a faulty sensor. Within another two days, the pump completely failed resulting in a seized engine. The bearings were so bad off that you could shake the crank back and fourth inside the block.

Like I said above though, the pump has not failed at this point. It seems to be weak, as in not making enough pressure when the motor is hot. I don't know how it would fail other than metal particles going through it. I've got the other filter that I just removed and will cut it open and see if I find anything. The oil coming out looked clean.

BTW, why am I not getting email notfications for this thread? It's also happening with other threads but not all of them. I haven't hit "unsubscribe" either. Weird!

Well, my engine seems to be running fine......but I no longer have third gear. :( It's always something. Didn't see that one coming. :o ;)

BTW, why am I not getting email notfications for this thread? It's also happening with other threads but not all of them. I haven't hit "unsubscribe" either. Weird!


I noticed that I get notifications off and on. Sometimes I have to go to User CP to make sure I don't have new replies. :confused:

Well, my engine seems to be running fine......but I no longer have third gear. :( It's always something. Didn't see that one coming. :o ;)

Ouch! Sorry to hear man.

So hows this project still going? I've gotten some great info here, but just wanted to hear whats been happening after a few months of drive time.

So hows this project still going? I've gotten some great info here, but just wanted to hear whats been happening after a few months of drive time.

I'm happy that you've got some info out of this thread BUT that engine suffered from foreign matter , which tore up the bearings and piston skirts (pretty much everything that rode along a bearing). That engine was pulled after just 300 miles, and had the block machined for 100.5mm pistons, new undersized bearings etc etc. The turbo was rebuilt and had a GT35R wheel fitted as well. At this current moment, the block is back together with the new parts except for heads (the ehads are at the machine shop right now). I'll let you know (and this thread) when it's back on line. Hopefully in two weeks until I start it again.

I'm happy that you've got some info out of this thread BUT that engine suffered from foreign matter , which tore up the bearings and piston skirts (pretty much everything that rode along a bearing). That engine was pulled after just 300 miles, and had the block machined for 100.5mm pistons, new undersized bearings etc etc. The turbo was rebuilt and had a GT35R wheel fitted as well. At this current moment, the block is back together with the new parts except for heads (the ehads are at the machine shop right now). I'll let you know (and this thread) when it's back on line. Hopefully in two weeks until I start it again.

todd, do you think the foreign matter was a result of a lack of cleanliness during the assembly? or did it come from somewhere else?

ken

Ken,

It's two-fold, really. I had blasted a few parts with a polishing media (very fine sand). I did clean those but probably not as well as I could have. The second part was that I didn't clean the block after it came back from the machine shop. It was run through a hotwash from the machine shop and oiled. They never told be to go back in and wash out the crevices one more time and I didn't ask either. Looking at the journals and piston skirts, there seemed to be dirt ( or something like that) and micro shavings of metal inside said the machine shop after inspection. However, that metal could have come from the polishing sand and just chewed away at ther internals so who knows. Moral - clean everything, even twice or three times until you feel that it's clean enough including the galleys, etc.

Yeah you've gotta wash the block post honing. During the hone stuff gets sprayed all over the place. Hot soapy water. That's a real bummer to hear about that.

Brake Kleen for cleaning.

Pipe cleaners for the oil galleys.

Quik-Seat for the cylinder walls.

Lint-free cloth.

Taps and dies through every essential thread and bolt.

Clean, clean and reclean. Keep your hands clean, as well. :)

HTH

S.

Subydude - I have about 12,000 miles on my motor since the rebuild. No MAJOR problems yet. My compression was a little lower than I expected (~130psi) at 800miles when I did an initial compression check. I did another one around 9,000 miles and it's still the same.

Yeah I love these microfiber clothes. They cleam just about the smallest particles off anything.