can someone please provide the compressor map for the to4r?

i know someone has it, so ill bump it up.

I have it but no way to upload or scan it. I can plot it. You have a 2.4 ltr right?

CLaRk

yes with jsut about 8.5 to 1 compression (if that matters)

I got the map for that compressor wheel in a to4s housing, I will have to dig it up and scan it for you. This is the compressor wheel that I am currently running, the map climes to a pressure ratio of 3.4:1 and does not start to fall away from that pressure ratio until about 65lbs/min with a max flow of 75lbs/min. I see full boost (20PSI) by 4600RPM. It shows no sign of falling off even when I am revving out to 8K. This turbo feels very good with my 2.5L.

This is the same turbo we are using in our T04R kit. Its been on mikes car for months now. Its making great power at pump gas boost levels which is nice. The difference in lag between the GT35R and the T04R is about the same. However we are using a .7 Twin scroll turbine on the T04R and a .82 on the GT35R. We are seeing 40whp higher at the same boost on 91 octane though. We have not tuned the car out to 35 psi yet but will next week. The car is on the show circiut for Toyo tires and is in Vegas for the show.

Before this the car ran a 60-1 with the same hotside. The difference in these two compressors is night and day. Very little increase in lag but HUGE power gains. The 60-1 blows hot air while the T04R runs cool as a cucumber.

Clark

that made me druel, ive been running the 62-1 wheel, and it made full boost at about 5k (when the turbo was still new and about 5800 when it was old) but the PR wont go above 2.4 even to save its own life, if i unplugged the WG it seems boost wouldnt go over 22-23 MAP. the flow was just about 60 lbs, and needed a big motor to get it their. the turbo just failed, and im in need of new wheels. ill go with a t04r wheel, and another P trim wheel, and i think life would be good. the main thing that i want to see on the Comp map is at what turbo speed does it make these boost pressures? for example, http://64.225.76.178/catalog/compmaps/Fig10.gif there is the comp map for the 62-1. i may have been spinning it to like 105,000 to 110,000, so if i were able to spin a t04r to that same RPM, would i be making way higher boost pressures? then would i be able to acheive target boost sooner? more mid range? ect ect...

ckark can i give you a call about this?

Ahh... Clark are U guys sellin that kit yet? Would it be worth while to to ditich a 35R for this turbo.. Anyway man u guys better call me when U dyno mikes car LoL... I have to see that go down

I don't understand how to read a compressor map

Jared, there is also the issue of the altitude were we live and how this effects the Ambient pressure of the atmosphere. I live in Layton that is about 4500ft above see level and on average the ambient pressure is any were from 12.4 to 12.6 this is a full 2psi different from sea level absolute pressure. Ambient pressure plays a very big role when looking at a compressor flow map because pressure ratio is a calculation of Ambient pressure + desired boost level divided by ambient pressure.


PR = Ambient pressure + desired boost level / Ambient pressure

for example

http://www.geocities.com/skipsterman/stats.JPG

You can see because of the altitude that we live the shaft speed on our turbos has to increase to make the same amount of boost as if we were at sea level. The map that I have for the T04R compressor wheel is map up to a PR of 3.4:1 the guys at sea level can spin this turbo up to 36psi and still be in the printed efficiency islands of the map but we can only run 30psi before we start to exceed the maps efficiency islands and shaft speed.

The reason that I am posting this info is because I believe that the TO4R would work much better for this altitude than a 60-1 or a 62-1 which at this altitude are at there max rated shaft speed by 23PSI were the TO4R does not reach this problem until 30psi.

Mitch

Also if you are looking for a turbo that flows over 70lbs/min and still operates at a higher pressure ratio take a look at the T61 or T66 compressor wheels.

T61-- http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/t61.gif

T66-- http://not2fast.wryday.com/turbo/maps/t66.gif

that t66 wheel is awesome, i need to compare the surge line between that and my 62-1, because IIRC i was dancing on the surge of my compressor too right in the low boost levels, cant remember.

thanks for all that info too suby44.

im thinking what im looking for is a turbo that makes the most possible boost for the lowest turbine speed.

the biggest problem i had with my old turbo, is that i didnt have more than 2 psi boost at 3k rpms, which was where my auto trans converter flash stalls at. if i am able to make more boost at that level, then ill be able to get the converter to stall up arounf 4500 RPMs, and then the launch will be down. other people with other turbos like the 35r and t04r are able to stall their converters out higher for the launch.

my old 62-1 maybe would get me a mid 2 second 60 foot, so im needing something that will bring that stall up to actual brake stall, and make some real boost at that lower shaft speed. any input on that suby44?

I wish that I could help you out more but I have no Auto tranny experience at all. As far as getting the turbo to spool up I believe that the T04R vs. T66 vs. T61 assuming they were running the same turbine side I feel the winner would have to be the TO4R because of the rotational mass of the three is completely different.

The T61 has a 60.5mm inducer and a 90mm exducer
Were
The T66 has a 65.5mm inducer and a 91mm exducer.
Were
The TO4R has a 66.7mm inducer and a 84mm exducer.

Out of these turbos I have only had hands on experience with the TO4R, So please try to gather as much info from as many sources as possible and make your own educated guess.

Here is a link to a very informative web site, All the info pertains to supra’s but it still shows what certain turbos are capable of. http://www.moreboost.org/turbos.htm



Mitch

so what is the power output on the T04R?

will it outpower a GT35R?

75 lbs, so yes, it does in a big way.

whats the max hp on that turbo?

i know kingpin is running one but he hasnt said any dyno numbers

750 hp, i dont know of any restrictions on exhaust housings and such, but the comp will flow enough to make that. kingpin made 440 at the wheels on pump at like 20 psi

id have to get rid of my utec and go with a standalone due to kingpin saying the MAF was maxed out practically at idle LOL

no you wouldnt. get a big MAF. i maxxed out my MAF at about 19 psi, and ran my car up to about 21-22, and there were NO problems. Utec can support LOTS of power. Kingpin ran that 35r on an STI, and maxxed it out at like 20 psi as well, but ran it up to 30-31 psi.

The 35R maxed the Big maf out at 5.0 volts around 25 psi or so. I would have to look back in the logs. The Utec uses MAP so this is not a big deal to us. No real point in using the Big MAF with the Utec.

The T04R is the way to go if you are shooting for over 600whp. The T6X comps will probably surge. So far no surging with our T04R kit.

We will be dyno tuning Mikes car very soon. We had it on the dyno at one point but the HKS BOV was leaking at 5 psi. It was leaking alot actualy. Still. With the leak at 18 psi we made more power then the 35R did by a good margin on pump gas. Plus the T04R was running 4 psi less boost. The problem with Mikes car is that he has a Crawford built motor that blows oil like mad. Compression is good but there is some good blow by going on in that thing. It coats the bumper in oil everytime its driven. So dont expect huge numbers out of it until that motor is replaced.

Jared. Go with the T04R comp and ditch that 62. You will be much happier man. Trust me. We have been down that road..

Clark

i want to, but the question is, can i do it on my same turbo? can i use the same cartrige, same comp housing? same casing? same shaft? ill do it this weekend if i can.

clark, with my slightly larger maf housing than stock, i was hitting 5.1 volts at about 21 psi on my 62-1, what does that mean?

The problem with Mikes car is that he has a Crawford built motor that blows oil like mad. Compression is good but there is some good blow by going on in that thing. It coats the bumper in oil everytime its driven. So dont expect huge numbers out of it until that motor is replaced.
Clark

I am more than positive that Quirt already reponded to you about the "issues" you were having with that car.
in http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=749171&page=2&pp=25&highlight=crawford


- I did install pistons into a short block that Kingpin sent me. However, I did not “build” the motor for him.
- The invoice shows that this particular install occurred over 9 months ago. The recent ring issue we have had with a few motors was about 1 month ago. The rings used in Mikes block were the OEM ones that came with the block, only the pistons were changed.
But, if you feel that the pistons are “bad” then:
1. Bring the car in, we can check it out. If the error is ours, we will refund the full amount that you paid for the parts and labor.
2. Send in the pistons, if they are faulty, we will still refund you the full amount that you paid for the parts and labor
Quirt Crawford
www.crawfordperformance.com

Have you made an appointment to bring the car in?

Chris

yea i want to make around 450-500 whp on pump so i think im gonna go with that turbo

ok so noone will post the comp map.

Jared, Not sure on the 5.1 volt thing. The Utec reads up to 5.0 volts max. What tool did you use to read the voltage? Basicaly from 5200 rpm on the Big Maf was maxed at 5.0 in these logs on the high boost runs.

I have been doing alot of testing of diff turbos and tuning diff turbo kits that are out or going to be out. In basic terms I keep getting more and more data to back up what we already knew. The older compressors like the 60 series and the 50,57 and 60 trims really heat the air up. I tuned a 57 trim that was making the charge air pipe so hot you could not touch it in just two pulls. Those compressor wheels where made for larger displacment low PR engines and it shows. Also, Big hot sides make big power on EJ motors. My rule of thumb now is to go one step larger then you think you need. I think there is a turbo out there that you are really going to like with your auto.

Chris. My point was not that Crawford has not offered to do anything for us. Its that the car blows smoke bad and that as a result of the crawford motor running like this we may not eclipse our target of 600whp+ until it is fixed.

I will try to screen print the Comp map in the morning. I am home sick today. Nasty flu bug going around I guess.

Clark

that nasty blu bug worked my ass last week.. I really get what you have been telling me about this turbo. I need a turbo that wil lmake more PR, and you say one with a larger a/r housing. heres the bottom line, i NEED to make boost at 3k, enough boost to take my stall and raise it up from 3k to 4500 and then ill need big huge brakes just to keep me on the line while i stage. thats why im thinking i might need a smaller housing. i just dont know what the hell is going on, and im thinking that if i absolutely need a big housing again (because i was making HUGE power on my .7 compared to the .58, it was just laggier) ill ****in get nitrous and spool that shiz up hardcore! about the 5.1 volts, i guess i may be wrong, i remeber seeing a 5 in there, and also remember hearing that the subaru maf maxxed out at 4.7. where did i hear that? anyways, i think it may have been 5.0. cant go back to datalog it anymore with a turbo that welded itself together. oh and about turbos, do you know about rebuilding mine into a t04r? if not ill be getting a schwitzer turbo. awesome comp maps, great surge line, and high PRs.

Jared. This is where a 35 shot of nitrous comes in. Most people go this route when faced with your problem. I keep a 50 shot on hand at all times. Recently ran a 90 shot with my 30R to get it to spool up. Lots of fun.

If you dont want nitrous then I would think a smaller compressor would be better for you. Lots of turbo vendors will sell you the GT40 compressor side of the GT35R. Thats new tech, its light and it runs ice cold. I honestly think if you went with the GT35R in .82 you would be very, very happy. Its a great combo. Its just not going to make 600whp very easy. It might when we work on increasing the motors VE with buildups but on stock blocks its hard to cross 550whp. What kind of power are you looking to make? Realistic terms? Figure that out and then go from there. I think you are in a rut right now because you played around with older turbos that where not up to the task at hand. The only reason we are playing with the T04R is that we wanted more comp flow to hit 600+ whp with no more then 30-35 psi. Its also a cheap turbo. A GT40R would be do those numbers easy but its expensive and hard to come by.

On the MAF volts.. The stock ECU will only read up to 4.7. So if you data log on Delta dash or a scan tool thats all you will get is right around 4.7. The Utec reads the voltage off the sensor so it will show up to 5.0 volts.

Cya

Clark

id love to run nitrous, and im thinking i might do that. ive got the wiring, switches, and bottle holder heater, and the stainless braided line for it. just need solenoids and a bottle.

i think i want to make a clean 500 on 100 octane (i know that will be a challenge), and 400 on pump. a 50 shot after that would be awesome too!

my motor is a 2.5 liter phase 2 block with CP pistons, pauter rods, darton sleeves, ARP studs, some head work, porting, retainers and dual springs with stock cams. my heads are milled to the max out of circumstance, and i think the compression is over 8.5 to 1

Im going back to the stock header. Im porting it out better, wrapping the center section, and then painting it all with 1500 degree ceramic paint. then im making a new 2.5 inch uppipe, and wrapping it up too. im going to buy a new turbo, and maybe experament with turbine housings. im thinking if i cant rebuild my 62-1 ill buy a schwitzer.

If you send me the 62-1 I can turn it into a T04R with your choice of turbine wheel. This is what we did on mikes car with his 60-1.

Stock headers is a step in the right direction for sure.

Clark

ill give you a call, what number should i call clark? lets talk about prices, i HATE my stock turbo that cant make more than 9 psi. my motor sucks boost down so far, that the stocker cant make boost. haha

I spent some time mapping your engine this morning. I really think you should get the T4/GT40. Its the GT35R comp section with the T4 hot side. Get the twin entry turbine housing in .7. This is really going to come on a good bit faster then the T04R and its going to have enough flow for your power goals. Plus. Its like $900 which is cheap. Then just Ebay your current turbo.

Clark

thnaks! id love to look at what you have come up with. could i save some money by using the .7 divided housing i have allready? and maybe even the comp housing i have now, or the center section?

The 35R maxed the Big maf out at 5.0 volts around 25 psi or so. I would have to look back in the logs. The Utec uses MAP so this is not a big deal to us. No real point in using the Big MAF with the Utec.

The T04R is the way to go if you are shooting for over 600whp. The T6X comps will probably surge. So far no surging with our T04R kit.

We will be dyno tuning Mikes car very soon. We had it on the dyno at one point but the HKS BOV was leaking at 5 psi. It was leaking alot actualy. Still. With the leak at 18 psi we made more power then the 35R did by a good margin on pump gas. Plus the T04R was running 4 psi less boost. The problem with Mikes car is that he has a Crawford built motor that blows oil like mad. Compression is good but there is some good blow by going on in that thing. It coats the bumper in oil everytime its driven. So dont expect huge numbers out of it until that motor is replaced.

Jared. Go with the T04R comp and ditch that 62. You will be much happier man. Trust me. We have been down that road..

Clark

I have the same problem; motor is coming out this week end for some head work and cams. Hopefully I can get some Ross pistons on the way. Sick and tired of using a quart of oil every 500 miles.

Mitch

Yeah. for some reason the rings did not seat with the CP pistons. It has lots of piston slap too. We have plenty of miles on it. Probably 3000 or more. But its smoking alot. Next time it comes out we will send it back to Crawford for inspection.

Jared. I can probably add the GT40 comp side to your existing turbo. But if you sell your turbo and just buy a new one you will probably be better off and cheaper. This is what Mike did. Let me see if I can screen print the maps with your engine plotted.

Clark

thanks, i just dont know what to do, im still seriously thinking schwitzer though.

Whats your altitude?

Clark

46-4800

Ok. Here is the 62-1 you have now. 2.5 ltr. 25 psi boost. As you can see you are out of your eff range big time and the compressor is over spinning. It is way off the map at 30 psi.

http://www.kingpinperformance.com/main/images/62-1-2.5-25psi.JPG

Here is the same engine on the GT40 compressor. The same compressor that is used on the GT35R. Much better off with this. Some room to spare in PR too. Shows an extra 60hp or so at same boost in the program.

http://www.kingpinperformance.com/main/images/GT40comp-2.5-25psi.JPG

Here is a pull using that compressor at 30 psi on a stock 2.5 block

http://kingpin.chainreactionservers.com/main/images/35r106c16.jpg


Clark

At that altitude the PR will be even higher then this of course.

Clark

THANKS!
i was spinning the **** out of that turbo to make 22 psi boost at the manifold. what do you recoomend to do? i need to be making more power at 3000RPMS that i was with this last one, what do you think? another thing is, that i never heard surge happening on this tubro.

those maps seem wierd, why is it that i was way in the surge line? i dont think i was surging, and i was flowing WAY more than just 25 lbs for 15-16 psi boost.

http://www.turboengineering.com/images/HT200-1.gif hey Clark can you plot out my motor on this map?

That comp chart has a high pr. Thats good for guys like you in altitude. But.. It does not have enough flow. At 25 psi up top in the rpm band its pushed out into the 60% range. PR will be higher then this since your at nearly 5000ft but still. Its on the edge. Better suited for a smaller motor like a 2.0 running very high boost. Whats the next size up? It should have enough headroom.

Here is the plot:

http://kingpin.chainreactionservers.com/main/images/HT200-1-25-25psi.JPG


Edit... The HT300 looks like it would be a better choice... More flow, higher eff at higher flows and a good PR headroom

http://www.turboengineering.com/images/HT300-1.gif

And the TEC HT-300 is a divided inlet [ twin scroll ] too - so it might actualy spin up a little quicker. Wouldn't be nice is some one built up a car with one of these ? Clark ?

look at the turbine specs though compared to the ht200, id never spool it. i talked to my turbo builder bud, and he said that he cant hybrid the 2 turbos, ht200 turbine, and ht300 comp. that would be awesome!

clark what numbers are you using for VE, because i believe my motor is alittle more efficient than factory EJs, i have spec C TGVs, better intake track for the turbo, ported exhaust ported heads, upped compression, balanced rotating assembly ect. what would that do for the charting on that turbo?

i really like that comp map, and i like that turbo. one guy on these boards made 409 whp uncorrected at 5000 feet. it seems like thats a great turbo for me if that is the case. he was also on a 2.5 liter motor. what do you think?

Clark, Is your experience with the 35R using the T04S housing?, Ported or non Ported shroud?

Mitch

There is another larger twin scroll out there. These are pictures of mine vs a VF-39 and VF-40 - It has a ~71lb/min compressor. It should be on my car in the next month. It has a roller bearing cartridge with water and oil cooling. We will see how fast it scrolls then. The picture in the middle is vs VF-39 the others are vs VF-40.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/th_super71_VF40outlet.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/super71_VF40outlet.jpg)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/th_Super71_VF40turbineinlet.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/Super71_VF40turbineinlet.jpg)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/th_super71_vf39front.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/super71_vf39front.jpg)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/th_Super71_VF40inlet.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/Super71_VF40inlet.jpg)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/th_Super71_VF40side.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/Super71_VF40side.jpg)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/th_Super71_VF40turbineoutlet.jpg (http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chucktoo/Super%2071%20Twin%20Scroll/Super71_VF40turbineoutlet.jpg)

I played around with the VE and to be honest it does not change the plotting that much. Of course this is all just for fun and to show you about where you would be on the map. Dont take any of it as gospel. Its just a tool to use to get you close.

I would love to try an HT300 but I do not have time right now. We are way to busy with the 35R and T04R kits. Maybe down the road I will play with one. There are also some Holsets that are dirt cheap that could work very well. Some have T3 bolt pattern which would make install much easier.

The 35R's we use come with the T04R cover(what my turbo builder calls the comp housing). I call it a T04S cover as thats what it looks like to me. 4 inch inlet. I can call him and ask him why he calls it an R housing. I honestly do not know why. Our GT35R's come from Garrett in Garrett boxes that are sealed. They are not made up from parts like others. We use the .82 and now the 1.06 AR turbine. I was told the Ported shroud housing only really helps at very high PR's. I might try one on my GT35R-1.06/2.5 setup.

Clark

thanks, so how much for a rebuild on up to a t04r?

Jared. Had a chance to get the T04R on the dyno today. It was nearly 100 degrees out which made conditions horrible to make power. Not a good pump gas turbo. Just under 400whp on straight 91 octane was the best we could do. I guess thats not so bad considering the heat and the crap fuel. The car was smoking real bad and thats probably why also. I was shocked to see 5.0 volts on the MAF at only 15 psi!! Thats insane airflow. It made the pump gas tune difficult. Added some C16 and made 496 uncorrected whp at 23psi!! We had issues with the gate and could not get more then 23 psi at the power peak. This car uses the Turbonetics Racegate. We are going to updated it to the Tial 44mm like we use on the GT35R kit. At 3-4 k rpm its down 50whp over the GT35R. But again. This crawford motor smokes like crazy and the 35R plot was on a low mile 05 STI.

Almost 500whp at 23 psi is just flat out bannanas! At 30-35 this is going to throw down well over 600whp. Hopefully with the updated gate and a different shortblock we will get some 35 psi pulls in soon.

The T04R might be to late comming for your auto. I would seriously think about the GT40 cold side on your T4 hotside.

Cya

Clark

very interesting, thanks for all the info, i wish i was in AZ working at your shop, and was able to witness all these things happen, and help contribute to them as well. im looking more and more into that schwitzer, do you really think its a bad turbo? the way it seemed to act it came on boost alot lower than the 60-1, and made lots of power. i think if i can make 500 whp, i would be very happy, then id take it to the track and see what shell run, and remember, with 500 i might just cut right into the 10s, because ill be leaving the line like a bat outta hell, and my shifts will be crisp and seamless. usually autos at this point that dont have to shift 5 times in the 1/4 will cut better times. ultimately my goals are 10s. if at that point i cant cut a 10, then a 50 shot of n20 would be the next step rather than a bigger turbo. so i guess, now i have to find the smallest possible turbo that will make 500 whp and go from there.

GT35R or GT40/T4 hybrid....

Clark

GT35R is an awesome turbo. It's kinda fun with the 0.63 exhaust A/R housing too, but it will definitely need a ported shroud intake as the spoolup is pretty amazing. I was getting 15psi at 3000 and full boost at 3500rpm in 4th gear (same as wrx 4th). If you were to try an push 28psi on a GT35R and 2.5 l engine it will surge a little using the standard cover below 4500rpm.

I have since moved to a 0.82 A/R housing and it has lost easily 500rpm of spoolup, but once over that the response is very similar.

I would like to try a large twin scroll unit in the future. Despite all the hype about short headers on the EVO giving good spoolup, I don't agree. Whenever I have seen an EVO equiped with a GT series turbo it spools about the same as a Subaru size for size. Although I do think keeping the headers hot is half the battle, on a circuit the GT35R was noticeably less laggy due to the continued heat going into the exhaust.

I am sure wouldn't like the 1.06 A/R housing myself, but maybe you guys are getting better spoolup than me by using standard cams. Are there any results from people using the GT35 with some longer duration cams?

Paul

i might go with a gt25r and that tiny housing. ? this schwitzer is still so tempting at almost half the price

gt30R with 0.63 housing will spool up very quickly if that is what you are after, 25psi at 3-3300 rpm on a 2.33 engine in a high gear.