Some of you may recall a thread I posted last year about some damage I incurred at a SWVR SCCA auto-x event.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525832

The SCCA has concluded their investigation and I thought I would relay my communications with the SCCA and my thoughts on how the SCCA handled the investigation. I hope this post serves to show some of the inner workings of the SCCA and expose some of what I perceive to be shortcomings of the SCCA’s policies on investigating auto-x incidents.

On March 21st of last year I attended my first auto-x event. This auto-x course was designed and run by the SWVR SCCA region. During the auto-x, I lost control of my car and impacted a curb, doing about $2000+ damage to my car. The causalities of the accident were 3 BBS rims (a slightly bent lip on two of the rims and the 3rd rim with a serious flat spot), two ruined RE070s, a bent aluminum control arm, and a damaged sway bar end link. In hindsight, I was lucky the car didn’t flip and the airbags didn’t deploy.

The accident occurred on my 2nd run of the day. I came around a corner and the tail started to slide, I tried to correct and when the car overcorrected it impacted a curb near the course boundaries. Needless to say I was very disappointed. If you’ve ever damaged your car you know how badly and stupid you feel. I felt sad and stupid for the month or so it took me to order new rims, tires, and track down all of my suspension damage and fix it myself; the benefit being that I finally had an excuse to buy a torque wrench capable of 250 ft-lbs because of the control arm torque specs.

Here are pictures of some of the damage my car took from the accident.

BBS wheel

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/bentbbsrim2.jpg


Bent control arm next to new control arm

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/controlarmsjpeg.jpg

My personality is such that I had to try auto-x again to prove to myself that I could do it properly, so I started to go to auto-x events at Maryland Airport (www.nationalroadrally.com). After two events at this location, I came to realize that the accident I incurred at the SWVR event, while definitely at least partially my fault, was made possible by some bad course design and safety procedures on the part of the SWVR course designers. Furthermore, when looking back at some posts on the SWVR website about my incident, I noticed that they had deleted my posts. The SWVR also deleted posts about lawn repair that was done at the school where the auto-x was held, and deleted all other posts regarding my accident. Worried that the same course designers may produce another unsafe course where an unknowing newbie would wreck their car, and angry that the SWVR region was trying to cover up my incident, I decided to contact the SCCA about my incident. I sent an email to SCCA President Steve Johnson, and he informed me that someone would be contacting me shortly to investigate my incident.

A divisional safety steward contacted me about a week later. He informed me that he would investigate the incident. I was hopeful that the investigation would come to a swift, decisive conclusion. When the investigation began, I immediately sent a report, all the pictures I had of the auto-x that day, pictures of my damaged car parts, and a drawing I made of the course as I remember it that day.

Below are some of the pictures I have of the course as it was set up that day.

Note on the far right side of the picture how close the course cones are to both the light pole and other cars

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/stxwrx.jpg


Another picture illustrating the closeness of the cones to solid objects

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/purpleimpreza.jpg


Look at the cross walk, the cone is next to the curb about where I impacted

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/curb.jpg


Picture showing proximity of cones to curbs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/corvette.jpg


Here’s my car right before the wreck :(

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/CornPicker/Auto-X%20Damage/beforethewreck.jpg

Of course the SWVR should have filed a report on the incident immediately after it occurred, but such was not the case. It took over 8 months for the SWVR to file a report on my incident. The SWVR did eventually file an incident report, after the SCCA forced them to. So, in summary up to this point we have:

Pictures proving the SWVR SCCA violated rules multiple times (cones can not be within 25 feet of solid objects)
An SWVR SCCA region trying to cover up their mistakes by not filing an incident report and deleting all posts related to the accident from their regional website

I was confident the SCCA would at the least punish the SWVR region (for their cover up) and take steps to ensure these types of accident wouldn’t happen in the future (for the newbies), and, hopefully reimburse me some of my costs (for my thousands spent in fixing damage).

So after almost a year of investigations, SWVR trying to cover up my accident and not filing an incident report, what was the SCCA’s final conclusion? Below is the email the SCCA sent me detailing the outcome of the investigation:


Sorry for thr delay getting back to you.

I will make this quick. I did take this issue with the National Solo 2 Safety Comm.

I talk to the RE. SWVR, a number of times late last year. With the information from him and what happen within that Region and the information from you.

I'm going to work with the Region on improving thier safety issue. Which inclueds course design and incitent reports. I'm to try to have a few of thier safety steward attend more training. That part I have figure out how to get out thier. I will checking up on them once a month or after every event in '05

I did not do a formal report at this time. If the SSC feels like I need to do one, I will. I will bring this up at are next meeting.

Yes, the final decision was that “more training” was necessary and a formal report was not necessary. Disappointed that “more training” was supposed to fix a region that tried to cover up an accident, deleted my posts on their website, and violated SCCA rules; I wrote a letter to the president of the SCCA.

A new investigation begun following my letter to the SCCA’s president. This investigation involved some higher ups, and supposedly an on-site investigation. This investigation was completed and I received the following email:


Thank you again for bring this matter to our attention. Our investigation is now complete and, while we did not find all of the issues that you raised to be problems, we did determine that certain aspects of the events operations were not in compliance with the applicable event rules.
The investigation has resulted in course design changes and officiating/administrative corrections beyond what was previously outlined to you, including training of additional safety stewards and required "rookie" course orientation.
The SSC appreciates you bring this to our attention and we hope in future events you may attend that you will appreciate the difference the corrective actions should have.


Their investigation supposedly determined certain rules were violated, but they give no specifics. I’ve requested a copy of the final report, we will see if I get it… I like how the SCCA hopes I will appreciate the difference in any future SWVR events I will attend, like I’ll ever attend another SWVR event. Wonder how welcome I would be if I showed up to an SWVR event :lol:

Overall I’m pretty disappointed with the SCCA. What was my $100+ membership for again? The SCCA is a body of inaction as far as I’m concerned. Their representative’s administrative abilities are questionable and their communication skills are definitely lacking.

All comments, criticisms, and advice are appreciated.

I remember yours and others postes right after it happened. What are you looking to resolve here?

Your main stance seems like it was unsafe course design (which goes hand in hand with safety).. which they are taking steps to not let happen again... and that they didn't file an incident report with SCCA. A subset of that stance is that they tried to 'cover it up'. Well, SCCA is looking at that too.

What are you hoping to happen? What are you looking to get out of it?

Better reporting of future incidents to SCCA? Check
Safer courses? Check

What else is there?

Cones can be closer to solid objects if the path of the car will be AWAY from that object in a spin. In our drivers meetings up here we always make special note not to try and be a hero to save your car. Just go both feet in and wait. The fact that you over corrected a couple times instead of both feet in leaves part of the blame with you. Sorry to say.

--kC

What else is there?

financial compensation I'm guessing?

KC, I sent you an email via your website yesterday, not sure if you got it?

Did you talk directly to the person who deleted the posts you refer to and, if so, what did they say?

There are a few issues to address here. The course looks less than ideal (small lot). I don't see a big corner were you went off, it looks like a pretty straight portion but it does look like the curbs were less than 25' (but it is hard to judge by pictures). The cars near the skidpad looked pretty close too, but again it is hard to judge from pictures.

The bottom line is that drivers are repsonsible for their own safety. I have driven a few courses were I did not like the layout of a particular corner. I voiced my concern and if nothing was changed I drove those sections more conservatively because ultimately I wanted to drive my car home (not tow it home).

It sucks that your car was damaged, I hope you can get back into autoX because the vast majority of them are run safely and have no incidents like this. But always do a walk through and play it safe rather than sorry if something looks less than ideal.

I'm not sure what you actually expected. Let me start by saying I'm a safety steward and I'm looking at your pictures and thinking that I would have had reservations about approving the course. I was not there though and did not actually walk the course. It's awfully tough to tell safety of a course from a few pictures. That said, you ran the course and presumably walked it before the event. Did you bring up your concerns to the chief of safety or any safety steward before the event?

The answer you got is about as harsh as they (SCCA) can be. The region is essentially on notice about their safety program which means that they are in danger of losing their sanction (which means their insurance) and never having events again. What did you hope would happen? Did you actually want the region to lose their sanction?

It sounds like the rules regarding incidents were not followed correctly from your story. Is this a training issue for the stewards? Yeah probably, or they did not feel or know the issue was as severe as you have described. The safety stewards for the region sound like they are going to have to go through the training again, that means they have to find a Divisionally approved safety steward instructor to teach the course and that they probably have to apprentice at two sanctioned events again. Considering that safety steward is about the most thankless job at an autocross I bet they might lose some of their stewards outright. If the safety steward program collapses then the region is done, period, you cannot run an event without licensed safety stewards. Is that what you'd like?

Safety starts with you and you need to take some blame for the incident. I'm not trying to be a dick here but your message sounds an awful lot like you want blame placed on the region for your loss of control. Should they have planned better, designed a course better, responded to the incident better? From your side of the story yes it sounds like all three might apply...but they weren't the one who lost control of the car and put it into a curb.

I guess after reading all that I have to ask, what were you hoping to get out of this? Have them pay for your damages? Revoke the sanctioning of autocrosses for that region? You say you are disappointed, but you never say what you really wanted for a resolution. The region people are just a bunch of volunteers, you can't fine or suspend them. You can revoke safety steward licenses and make them go through training again, it sounds somewhat like that's what is going on.

I've seen accidents where cars lost control and hit objects more than 25 ft. away. It happens. Do you think if the course had been setup 25 ft. from that curb instead of the 10 or so ft. you would have avoided the curb?

The curb spot looks okay as that other car is going straight or away from the curb at that point. The skidpad with the car on the outside, not so good...

i'm going to have to go with KC on this one. What more do you want/were expecting? you can't fire volunteers ;) and from what you posted, it sounds like you couldn't control your car, which happens to be very fast.

Yes, the region was wrong to not file an incident report immediately following your incident.

As for the "cones too close" thing... 25 feet really isn't that far. The cones near the curb look to be too close, but the ones you are referring to around the light pole look to be on the cusp of that 25 foot minimum.

Additionally, if you're looking to get compensation for your accident, you need to look elsewhere. Poor course design or not, you admit that you were at least partially at fault for what happened (because you didn't give it up). If another car on course lost a wheel, and that wheel hit you or your car, yeah, SCCA insurance would cover your losses there. But for losses incurred through your driving, you've got such an uphill battle, you may as well be scaling a cliff.

As for deleting the posts... I don't blame them, frankly. Look at what exploded just here in regards to the Evo8 that hit the port-a-john at the Philly Region event earlier back in February. People not at the event second-guessing the region, second-guessing the driver, second-guessing the course design.... if you don't want arm-chair safety stewards, you do not bring the incident into a public forum where the event and situation can totally be taken out of context.

Just my 2c on the subject. I'm sure next time you go to any event, you'll be more cognizant of the safety of the course, and if it doesn't meet with your internal "safety meter," I'm hoping you decide to go home rather than tempt fate again. Sorry it happened though. :(

Karen

Why did you race on an unsafe course!?

Our region ran into this same type of issue 2 seasons ago.

One of our regulars in the SS, which he is a very good driver, hit a curb at a decent rate of speed and did some serious damage to his Z06.

The lot we were in is small, and we were probably a little too close to curbs too. Basically, the driver of the Z06 made an overaggressive move to cross the finish, got crossed up, "tried to save it", and nailed a curb with the right front wheel. It pushed the wheel right into the hood and did a lot of damage to the undercarage of the car. Also, this driver was a safety steward for our region and still would be if he didn't move to Florida.

Basically, it goes hand in hand with what happened at the SWVR event you mention here.

In all reality, the mistake you made in your run can happen to anyone. Even the best driver in your region.

And if you are looking for financial compensation, don't expect it. I know the driver in our region had to pay for all the damages done to his car ( something like $6000 ) and he accepted the fact that he made the mistake and didn't blame the region for the course design.

I can understand the anger that your car got damaged, but think of it this way. If you didn't want to take that risk, then you shouldn't have run that day or autox at all.

Later,

Jason

Why did you race on an unsafe course!?

This exactly what I would say. U r the first line of defense. Eventhough you were/are new to auto x. This should have been outlined for you. If you felt bad about driving your car in the snow on re70's, and crashed, would you now be pointing blame at subaru, or the dmv, or the weather. It is unfortunate that you hit the curb. If hindsigh is 20/20, be gald u didnt flip your car. I am sure that everyone else at the event felt that way. Good luck in the future.

It looks to me like the SCCA is doing what they should be in this situation. It is not like they can travel back in time to the event and make changes to the course. Also the insurance and safety regulations do stipulate 25 feet, but, as KC pointed out, that is only 25 feet if the solid object is in the path that a spin or loss of control would generally result in.


The other thing to remember about this rule is that if you limited ANY cone to being 25 feet from ANY solid object, most clubs in the US probably couldn't put on events due to available lot sizes. I have set up courses on our local lots with cones no more then 10 feet from curbs, however the car is travelling parallel to the curbs and in no danger at this time. But we have to set up courses like this or we couldn't autocross anywhere in this area.

Regardless of what else happened, there is NO way you should expect anyone to pay for ANY flat spotted tires in ANY situation unless they are driving the car.

I wasn't going to comment, but oh well. I'm actually quite dissapointed in the lack of any real concern the SCCA exhibted towards the incident. And I'm also quite unimpressed with the lack of communication skills that particular person displayed.

I had a hard time reading it, and you would think he/she could atleast practice proper grammar and spelling. I feel for your loss. But would not try to lay so much blame on the region.

The fact is you caused the accident. Even though the course might've been poorly designed (which I agree it was). It doesn't sound like anyone else had any difficulty navigating the track.

I wish you the best of luck in getting whatever it is you want. If you came here hoping we would all hop on an SCCA boycotting bandwagon. You will have to look elsewhere.

On a related note, I know that when I'm competing I push to the edge, so if the edge is too dangerous I don't run because I know I can not stop my competive side enough. I ran a "road" cross once (none SCCA) that had a wall of tires on the side of the road which was right where the racing line would be. I nearly hit it on one of my runs and decided to stop running after that. I also ran a RallyX once that had some metal polls that marked the line. After ONE run, I packed it up because it was retarded dangerous (to my car).

I'm going to point something else out that might also have been forgotten. The point of the SCCA Solo Safety Steward program is NOT to protect you from damaging your car, but rather to protect the people at the event from injury. Participants and non-participants alike.

The primary duties of the SSS shall concern the safety of participants and non-participants. This includes course security, which is defined as maintaining control over non-participant access to the course. Course layout relative to driver and worker safety is also a concern of the SSS. As that last sentence said, we obviously do have course design rules about distance from solid objects, because in an accident there is the potential for driver injury (and of course no one WANTS a car to get damaged).

Finally a personal note. Airing potential liability issues in a public forum is never a good idea. This, my friend, is a public forum. I, like others, am not sure what desired result you wanted from SCCA. Their response seems very appropriate to me. And I have even less of a clue what you're trying to accomplish with your posts here...

Show me the money should've been the title to this thread. He got everything he asked for except cash and he is now disappointed.

...rest of post edited so as not to offend anyone.

hahahh your crying after you couldnt handle your own car?

Why did you race on an unsafe course!?

Hmmm, maybe because it was his first autocross?

Give this guy a break. Remember what it was like the first time you autocrossed? Heck, the last thing I was thinking about was second-guessing whether the "experienced" club members designed a safe enough course.

And if you're not driving a car hard enough to spin it a time or two in your first season of autocross, you either have incredible innate driving talent (yeah, right) or you're not pushing your limits very hard. I recall several spins in my first season or two of autocross where I was sure glad my local autocross club paid very close attention to safe course layout.

As a casual autox'r, I throw my 2 kroners in.

1. Your car, you chose to race, you hit the curb, you pay. Pay to play
2. That course looks WAAAY to compact with numerous issues of objects and parked cars.
3. Why have a safety steward if it's not safe and they (granted they are volunteers) are doing there job right?
4. Why didnt anyone say anything in the drivers meeting?
5. It was VERY VERY cowardly and suspicious of the deleted posts issue
6. It would have been better off if you spun out and hit the parked cars, then the SCCA insurance might have kicked in, and an investigation would have been launched for sure.

I wasn't going to post either, but since I just ran my first AutoX event last weekend, I can tell you what went through my mind and what should have gone through yours. "Uhhh... is there any place on this course that I would conceivably be creating a $35000 tow truck?" In my case, it was on a course where police are trained to drive their cruisers, so there were no obstacles, just lots and lots of water if you go off course. You said it was your first autoX event. Have you ever driven a 4WD car hard before? I know I haven't and I can tell you from my first event that it is TOTALLY different than driving any other drive train combination. You can't countersteer a 4WD car, it will just flip back you you, not like a RWD car where you can get the rear end straight again. The front wheels will pull you in the direction that they are facing, and if that is different than the direction the back wheels are facing or your momentum is going, you are gonna flip it back hard.

It really sux that this happened to you. I really feel for you because I have a blue STi and it's my baby. I know I probably would have cried after the string of expletives that barged out of my mouth as soon as the car came to rest. Thank your lucky stars that you DIDN'T flip it. Imagine how much THAT would have cost.

Here's my recommendations. You did the right thing expressing your concen about the governing body of your event. However, bashing them publicly is wrong. Would you want your boss posting your shortcomings on a public forum for all your colleagues to read? I know that would really upset me. Remember that waiver you signed when you came through the gate? That means that while you have every right to complain about the course design, you have no right whatsoever to receive any compensation from the SCCA or any subsidiaries. In the future, contact your insurance company and get a special "racer's rider". This will cover you in the event that you damage your car at a sanctioned race event. Yes it costs money, but it would have saved you a TON in your case. Insurance is your friend. Besides, think of it this way, if you went sky diving and your chute didn't open, are you going to blame the airport that let you go up in a plane and participate in an activity with serious consequences? I would hope not. Even if you inspected the pack yourself and found it to be a faulty pack, I would hope that you would NOT JUMP! You have to take some responsiblility for the risks you take.

Again, I'm really sorry that this happened. Don't give up on AutoX'n because you will learn how to handle your car in real life situations. Think of what you learned so far, let's say you were cut off and the rear end came loose when you tried to veer away from the other vehicle! Will you overcorrect as much, or do you now have a LOT more experience in how your car handles and what it's limitaitons are? You will start to learn to drive by "feel" which can save your life on the mean streets.

I think some people are being too harsh, I didn't get the sense he was looking to recover money in his post.

That said, it was just property damage, so there really isn't a big issue. I agree that you probably should have been better informed regarding adjusting your driving and not trying to save it, especially considering the lack of space.

Nobody was hurt however, and that's the most important fact. SCCA is a club, not a company. It's strength comes from it's members and there's not a whole lot the national administration can do in a case like this.

If you keep autocrossing and become more involved with course design and the people running things this will soon just be an expensive lesson.

I think some people are being too harsh, I didn't get the sense he was looking to recover money in his post.

On the contrary actually. Most people that replied, probably did so after they read the following:

I was confident the SCCA would at the least punish the SWVR region (for their cover up) and take steps to ensure these types of accident wouldn’t happen in the future (for the newbies), and, hopefully reimburse me some of my costs (for my thousands spent in fixing damage).

No, I'm pretty sure that he won't be satisified until he gets some kind of "compensation" from the SCCA. I agree in earlier posts that everything else he wanted came to fruition, 'cept the money thing.

I think some people are being too harsh, I didn't get the sense he was looking to recover money in his post.

That said, it was just property damage, so there really isn't a big issue. I agree that you probably should have been better informed regarding adjusting your driving and not trying to save it, especially considering the lack of space.

Nobody was hurt however, and that's the most important fact. SCCA is a club, not a company. It's strength comes from it's members and there's not a whole lot the national administration can do in a case like this.

If you keep autocrossing and become more involved with course design and the people running things this will soon just be an expensive lesson.

:confused: :rolleyes: :confused: :huh: :eek: :confused:



and, hopefully reimburse me some of my costs (for my thousands spent in fixing damage).

6. It would have been better off if you spun out and hit the parked cars, then the SCCA insurance might have kicked in, and an investigation would have been launched for sure.My understanding is that SCCA insurance only kicks in if personal injury occurs (and only for SCCA members, if I understand correctly). Not for any property damage. If he'd spun out and hit the parked cars, he would have simply been responsible for paying for fixing those damaged cars as well.

hate it for you and things could have been handled differently but stuff happens, sorrry man

Now, whether the insured's company permits 'timed' racing events or not, they could attempt to subrogate against the SCCA.

Just a thought.

Woops I completely missed the part about compensation for damages.

Page 8 summarizes the insurance coverages. That being Corn Picker was a member.

I say it could fall under "members and owners of vehicles....from....Property damage" and another funny line "oversight by safety stewards"

http://www.scca.org/_Filelibrary/File/SectionA.pdf

Addtional insureds are also members.

It looks like the subrogation option can be waived. .... . .

Looks like he's screwed anyways because of the time lapse involved.

Hell, my third autocross ever I rolled a car over! ;)

Anyone racing in Orange, MA in 1995? I was driving a Dodge Shelby Charger and put it on the roof!

On a related note, I know that when I'm competing I push to the edge, so if the edge is too dangerous I don't run because I know I can not stop my competive side enough. I ran a "road" cross once (none SCCA) that had a wall of tires on the side of the road which was right where the racing line would be. I nearly hit it on one of my runs and decided to stop running after that. I also ran a RallyX once that had some metal polls that marked the line. After ONE run, I packed it up because it was retarded dangerous (to my car).

I had a similar incident with one of the neibhoring regions where we were co-hosting the event.

They (the other region) had designed a course with a very dangerous finish where under certain circumstances it could be possible to spin your car into the timing trailer, or worse the time slip person at the finish.

To make matters worse, some idiot parked their SUV next to the timing trailer reducing the run off area even further.

After about the 3rd DSP driver, and the 4th ESP driver (yours truely) almost losing it in the shutdown area, I was fricken pissed (along with many other drivers) ... I went up to the to demand my money back because I was not satisfied with the safety of the course. I was ready to go home.

In the end, the safety steward from my region agreed (very quickly I might add) and the course was changed.

As your story, that sucks.. I remember when you first posted this unfortuente incident. Personally I would never had run at that site.
You have to remember the last line of safety at an Autocross (or any motorsports event) is you. If you have any doubts at all, then you should raise the issue.

I say it could fall under "members and owners of vehicles....from....Property damage"

Hmm, I don't know... I thought "property damage" didn't include competitors' vehicles. But honestly, I hope I never have cause to find out either. :)

You have to remember the last line of safety at an Autocross (or any motorsports event) is you. If you have any doubts at all, then you should raise the issue.

that's what I think sucks the most about this; he was a noob and probably didn't really know/understand the hazards

Hmm, I don't know... I thought "property damage" didn't include competitors' vehicles. But honestly, I hope I never have cause to find out either. :)

I suppose personal property is different from property

Bummer that while participating in an event of your choosing, you found yourself unable to deal with circumstances into which you chose to place yourself and your property. Might be constructive to view this as a learning experience for yourself and perhaps other like-mindeds. Best of luck in working your issues out with the appropriate entities. Please consult mirror for complete list of same.

You can't countersteer a 4WD car, it will just flip back you you, not like a RWD car where you can get the rear end straight again.

please tell me this is a joke. recovering from a spin is so much easier in an AWD car it's not even funny. it's when you stay off the gas trying to correct, that you get in trouble. staying on the gas about 25% to 50% (depending on the situation).

since that was your first autoX i can understand your point of view. when i started out i spun out quite a bit too. not till one event where the course was wet as hell, i started understanding AWD driving dynamics.

dude thats knarly, hehe

Well, thanks for all of your replies and concerns. Honestly I'm not expecting compensation, that's un-realistic following the investigation and public airing. If you re-read my post I said I was hopeful I might have been partially compenstaed at the time the investigation began, back in May, but as soon as I started communications with the SCCA and relaying my experiences to others I knew the chance of compensation without legal action was gone. Being that I'm not going to pursue legal action, I'm not expecting anything. Yes the accident is my fault, but, if there had been another 15 feet, I'm 90% confident I would not have hit the curb. I didn't overcorrect again and again, there was one overcorrection and that was all it took.

My reasons for posting are that I want other people to be aware of the dangers and learn from incident. I've already gotten several PMs form newbies telling me that they appreciate me airing this incident so that they can learn from it, and that's payment enough for me. I feel good posting this knowing that I've had several people new to auto-x PM me and tell me that this will be on thier minds when they attend their first event.

My other reason for airing this is so that people can decide whether or not the SCCA is right for them. In my case, I don't see any reason why I should be a member of the SCCA, the non-SCCA sanctioned autocrosses I run now are much better and safer than the SCCA sanctioned event I attended, but this experience is highly variable region to region. If I have an oppurtunity this year to make it further north and try an alternative SCCA region I may do so. I'm not trying to get anyone to boycott the SCCA, just urging caution before you spend your hard earned money. Attend a local event and decide if the benifits you get from being an SCCA member outweigh your yearly fee.

As far as airing a "private" investigation in a public forum, who the **** cares? The SCCA as an organization is not exepmt from criticism just because they like cars like we do. I'm sure the SCCA lobbies for and against legislation and that I would agree with many of their stances, but that doesn't preclude me from mentioning what I perceive as their shortcomings. Auto-x is by far the SCCA's largest recruitment pool for more advanced motor sports, if they have to be constantly motivated to take action in auto-x incidents, then they are hurting themselves by leaving a sour taste in the mouths of potential lifelong members. If you have any additional questions or comments be sure to post them or PM me.

Ok then.

I'll echo your feelings about SCCA taking some criticisim. In my region, you are either a BoG 40-year member back racing Corvair's when they are still new or you are nothing. They keep begging for us to be EVM's, on the BoG and helping with T&S and course setup and takedown along with Solo1 help. But, they (the older crowd, 55yo and up) fail to look into the mirror and see the real issue. You have 100 cars at a autoX, and the majority of them are 35 and younger, and you have a bunch of geysers (on the BoG) alienating the other members via issues and actions taken at events or on local boards.

Recently, our local board, an our senior exec got tired of everyone busting his balls because he flamed n00bs with the harshest of tone (think Davenow on a n00b in the 2.0L forum). He then got upset becuase people were using screennames as opposed to thier real names. These people were asking legit questions, in a respectful manner, and of all people the regional senior exec flames them. Then, out of the blue, threads start disappearing. Is that any way to put good light on gaining new members and putting a good face on the SCCA as a whole? I think not. Sad thing is that this happens alot, in a lot of regions.

In retrospect, I do, and take for face value that they SCCA is a club, and that is how clubs work.

It's sad to hear your story Corn, it happens here too.

My solution is to that is to get more involved, and make a difference. It has now been officially a year since I started autocrossing. And I just joined the board of one of our local alternative SCCA clubs.

Luckily we don't share the same problems you encounter. But if anything is arrise that I don't like. I can now at the very least raise my concern with a certain amount of respect.

my self being one of the only people to have ever had a car-to-car solo2 accident
i slid 146(greater than 25 feet required in saftey stewert manual) feet into a brand new firebird ws6

1 small courses suck
2 noob drivers shouldn't be driving STIs
3 no your not going to get any compensation - you break it you bought it (yay insurance claim)
4 deleting posts was very uncool
5 some regions are stupid about this sort of thing, i would point out salt lake being the same way (long straight into 3rd, sharp left with curb 15 feet behind)
6 did you read the waiver
7 its still stupidly addictive
8 sites are hard to find propety owners are very weary of this sort of thing if you had rolled you might have sued them too. thus we get stuck with what ever sites we can get and they usualy cost in the neibor hood of $1000+ /day

"You have 100 cars at a autoX, and the majority of them are 35 and younger, and you have a bunch of geysers (on the BoG) alienating the other members via issues and actions taken at events or on local boards."

And herein lies the problem. The majority is not getting involved. Remember the guys at the top are elected. If there are more of "you" than "them", "you" can take over. Or you just let the geysers erupt on a regular schedule.
Richard, an old geezer by your definition since I just turned 55.

A different view of this incident....

Fact: I'm a member of the region (SWVR) and that same event was my 2nd ever AutoX with the STi and I also saw the whole event.

I walked the course and found it to be a fun and challenging course on this COLD day. Of course I noticed a new lookin Blue STi there too but didn't have a chance to meet him till later.

I watched Corn-Picker's 2nd run in the STi entirely. I could tell right away that he was not only overdriving the car but wayyy over his limits. He rounded a long left hand sweeper, got on the gas too early, over corrected (or not corrected-correctly), over corrected AGAIN, and then blew right into the curb on the right side.

I took this exact same turn in my STi which at that time was completely stock like his, without ANY problems or issues. Despite his wreck, I had a great day and learned alot about my car and continue to do so to this day.

The Club did get in a bunch of trouble due to Mr. Picker's driver error. Thankfully, the club kept its title and numerous safety improvements (over and beyond the standard ones) have been made and implemented since his incident.

I have been a track/corner worker, Pit Marshall and Safety Steward at FIA events. IF I felt that a certain track wasn't safe, I wouldn't race it, including the one where MR. Picker had his incident. I have now been with the SWVR club for over a year and feel they are a professional and fun down-to-earth group. I will continue to race there for a long long time. (I drive 2.5 hrs to get to this event once a month, while there are other regions nearby, I really like this one)

While I could've spent another few paragraphs describing and analyzing Mr. Picker's driving errors, legal issues and ethics I will refrain and chose to only write about exactly what I saw.

Truly,

Davis

Can anyone do some web hosting for me? The mods have not unblocked the thread my first post references, the thread that started immediately following the incident.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525832

Luckily I saved a copy of the thread and have it at home. I would like to have that hosted so I could reference it in this thread and people could peruse both threads and note how some opinions have changed over the last year. Stories tend to change over time so we should go back to the original copy.

Can anyone do some web hosting for me? The mods have not unblocked the thread my first post references, the thread that started immediately following the incident.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=525832

Luckily I saved a copy of the thread and have it at home. I would like to have that hosted so I could reference it in this thread and people could peruse both threads and note how some opinions have changed over the last year. Stories tend to change over time so we should go back to the original copy.
Again... what's the point in posting this? RIght now, you're just looking for a fight.

Yes, attitudes change as people realize that they may have been incorrect or misguided in the past.

I'm going to be blunt... if you want to keep the argument going.. this isn't the place for it. You take issue with your region and the SCCA? Then your arguemnts and bringing up the past should be directed at them.. not the members here.

1) I think 100% of us are in agreement that what you experienced sucked and wouldn't wish that to happen to anyone... at all.
2) You got what you wanted from the SCCA and the region... more awareness of the safety and course design.

What else is there? You're not getting money. And I think that 100% of us know you're pissed off at the whole situation. However what I fail to see (because you now want to revert to the past with the old thread) is that you want to take responsibility for your actions.

You bringing up an old thread is not going to make this any better for you, for me, for anyone. It's not going to change anything other than for you to make this 'Yeah but you said THIS before... why the change???' What happened? You overdrove your car. You hit something. Sucks... but thems the apples.

We don't have anything against you. We think it sucked. But it's a done deal. Why keep it going?

--kC

Since you saw fit to include a photograph of me on course, I felt I could make a reply.

The fact is that you are a child and one year after an incident still can't assume the responsibility for what happened.

Our region should have done a few things differently (after your incident), but that in no way alleviates you from the burden of being a virgin, novice driver in a car with capabilities and horsepower so wildly out of your league that you shouldn't even have the keys.

I came through that same turn, I have more horsepower than you do and I got even more sideways than you did. The difference is that I have seat time and I understand car control. If that curb was another 50 yards away you probably would have still hit it. The condition is called "The red mist" and we have all experienced it.

How many other STI drivers were there that day? Nobody else had an issue. In fact, in our region it has been decades since anyone had an incident of any sort during a regular autocross.

Your incident was an abomination in the autocross world. Responsibility should be shared, but the principal cause was your overdriving your vehicle, your lack of experience/seat time and your obvious arrogance.

I hope you go on to learn a lot about life and driving. I hope you have a successful autocross career, but I do hope that you never come to our region again.

You swept into our town, entered in a region with a blemish free safety record and proceeded to drag us through hell that has yet to abate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

*** I know that registering at a forum just to defend something is generally frowned upon, but I felt it necessary. If this kid had any honor he would have just gone away. I apologize for the intrusion NASIOC. I have one of your kind (STI driver, Davis) nipping at my heels in our region and I sure as hell respect the cars and their owners.

"You have 100 cars at a autoX, and the majority of them are 35 and younger, and you have a bunch of geysers (on the BoG) alienating the other members via issues and actions taken at events or on local boards."

And herein lies the problem. The majority is not getting involved. Remember the guys at the top are elected. If there are more of "you" than "them", "you" can take over. Or you just let the geysers erupt on a regular schedule.
Richard, an old geezer by your definition since I just turned 55.


That's the thing. They I (and others in my situation) do and did get involved, they again fail to recognize mine and others efforts. I'm not having a pity party either. By no means I'm trying to alienate scca/nasioc members by age, but it's the reality in my region.

They bark "If you don't like it, you get on the BoG, get involved, then we will listen". Well, come on. How are we supposed to do that? The 3 'geysers' and thier wives vote for eachother, and the younger crowd writes in thier own names, and we get nowhere. Face it, they would run to Congress if they ran out of red tape to keep the RE in his chair if they had too.

There are many of what I and other quality members (EVM's, etc...) that jump ship to other regions or just flat out quit.

Now, our region is making some headway, but (sorry for going OT) my plight and similar experiences of the others here is the reality in some regions. In this instance, I believe 'the covering up' of what my region would consider a serious accident, worthy of an investigation and the examining of the Safety Steward's decision.

Again... what's the point in posting this? RIght now, you're just looking for a fight.

Yes, attitudes change as people realize that they may have been incorrect or misguided in the past.

I'm going to be blunt... if you want to keep the argument going.. this isn't the place for it. You take issue with your region and the SCCA? Then your arguemnts and bringing up the past should be directed at them.. not the members here.

--kC


No, I'm not looking for a fight, but when people start to personally attack me (see above) and there is contradicting evidence available but blocked I become agitated. If the moderators feel (please PM if so mods) the original post desrcibing the incident inappropiate for this board, even if hosted from the outside, and are against me hosting it from an outside source, then I won't publically post it here.

This thread has been civil up until now, and I see no reason it can't stay that way if cooler heads previal.

As far as the unblemished safety record of the SWVR, yeah, when you don't report incidents I suppose it looks that way.

Now, our region is making some headway, but (sorry for going OT) my plight and similar experiences of the others here is the reality in some regions. In this instance, I believe 'the covering up' of what my region would consider a serious accident, worthy of an investigation and the examining of the Safety Steward's decision.

And reading the 1st post... they are making the necessary changes...

we did determine that certain aspects of the events operations were not in compliance with the applicable event rules.
The investigation has resulted in course design changes and officiating/administrative corrections beyond what was previously outlined to you, including training of additional safety stewards and required "rookie" course orientation.

The fact is that you are a child that one year after an incident still can't assume the responsibility for what happened.Unless I'm mistaken, Corn-Picker has assumed responsibility for what happened. He isn't filing a lawsuit against the SCCA, the facility or the course workers. He's paid for the repairs out of his own pocket.

Our region should have done a few things differently (after your incident), but that in no way alleviates you from the burden of being a virgin, novice driver in a car with capabilities and horsepower so wildly out of your league that you shouldn't even have the keys.From what I have read, your region should have done things differently before the incident (course design) AND after the incident. Deleting posts and not filing reports are not the way to deal with a problem. In one of my first autox's, I thought that one area of the course was dangerous. Being a noob, I didn't say anything, but I drove carefully through that area. It didn't take long for someone to wipe out through that area and cause a significant amount of damage to his car. Luckily, no people were hit. Posts like this are useful in that they let people know what can happen at an autox. You CAN AND SHOULD complain about an unsafe area.



I came through that same turn, I have more horsepower than you do and I got even more sideways than you did. The difference is that I have seat time and I understand car control. If that curb was another 50 yards away you probably would have still hit it. The condition is called "The red mist" and we have all experienced it.

How many other STI drivers were there that day? Nobody else had an issue. In fact, in our region it has been decades since anyone had an incident of any sort during a regular autocross.

Your incident was an abomination in the autocross world. Responsibility should be shared, but the principal cause was your overdriving your vehicle, your lack of experience/seat time and your obvious arrogance.

I hope you go on to learn a lot about life and driving. I hope you have a successful autocross career, but I do hope that you never come to our region again.

You swept into our town, entered in a region with a blemish free safety record and proceeded to drag us through hell that has yet to abate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

*** I know that registering at a forum just to defend something is generally frowned upon, but I felt it necessary. If this kid had any honor he would have just gone away. I apologize for the intrusion NASOIC. I have one of your kind (STI driver, Davis) nipping at my heels in our region and I sure as hell respect the cars and their owners.Your region had something to do with this "hell that has yet to abate." From the pictures, the course design looked questionable at best. I still don't understand what was to be gained by deleting posts and not filing accident reports. If anything, by not filing a report, you put all of the SCCA at danger of lawsuits, losing insurance, losing autox venues, etc.

You bringing up an old thread is not going to make this any better for you, for me, for anyone. It's not going to change anything other than for you to make this 'Yeah but you said THIS before... why the change???' What happened? You overdrove your car. You hit something. Sucks... but thems the apples.

We don't have anything against you. We think it sucked. But it's a done deal. Why keep it going?

--kC


I wouldn't have posted this thread if I thought no good would come of it.

#1 As I said, several newbies have PMed me telling me this will be in the back of their mind at their next auto-x, that's a good thing.

#2 I've outllined through my experiences what I feel are some shortcoming of the SCCA and its control over its regions. If other people agree with my assessment they may have solutions to help fix these problems I have not thought of.

#3 I have left a paper trail a mile long about the region, so that I can feel confident I've significantly decreased the probability of this same thing happening in the same region in the future to someone else.

The thread and what we take from it is what we make of it. If we keep up the civil discussion there's no reason this thread can't be positive.

You swept into our town, entered in a region with a blemish free safety record and proceeded to drag us through hell that has yet to abate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Who should be ashamed of themselves? It's shameful to defend the obviously unsafe layout of that course. Just because no one else wrecked their car isn't a reasonable defense - if you don't have novices at your events who are trying to learn car control, your club/region has no future, plain and simple. How can you blame someone for bringing an unsafe situation to the attention of those that can enforce corrections? If it was me, I'd be thanking this guy for helping to make my region's events safer for everyone, not mocking him for bringing the problem to light.

maybe you should take up ping-pong. Just dont put the table too close to the curbs...

http://www.kajetanowicz.com/galeria/mirek/ping-pong.JPG

"The 3 'geysers' and thier wives vote for eachother, and the younger crowd writes in thier own names, and we get nowhere."

Then each old fart (our preferred term thank you) gets 6 votes. So all you have to do is have 7 of you agree to vote for one of you and your in. Trust me, it is a lot of hard work to try to manage any sports car club. Speaking from experience, I can't get any one to tell me how our region is doing. So I frequent web sites like this to try to find out.

"The 3 'geysers' and thier wives vote for eachother, and the younger crowd writes in thier own names, and we get nowhere."

Then each old fart (our preferred term thank you) gets 6 votes. So all you have to do is have 7 of you agree to vote for one of you and your in. Trust me, it is a lot of hard work to try to manage any sports car club. Speaking from experience, I can't get any one to tell me how our region is doing. So I frequent web sites like this to try to find out.


Yep. I've defected to the Kansas City region to escape the BS up here.

The local websites are scheer madness!

Everything you wanted you got. You wanted the SCCA to come down on the region and they did. You wanted better and safer course design and you got it. You wanted others to be aware of what can happen and you state that you have enlightened several noobs. You wanted the region to suffer for a long time and they have and continue to do so according to BillGammon.

What is it you really want here?

Anyone ever done a street solo? Those can be really tight. Definatly complain about unsafe conditions. This is something that you should be looking at during the course walk. I hit a timing light once, I couldnt imagine hitting a object or a person.

I re-read most of this again. Quite a few tempers still brewing...

We had a very similar mishap in a neighboring Region. In fact, it was in many ways, identical. Small Region that only has a small lot, on the fringe of what would be considered safe. Personally, I have never and will never autox at that site. It just isn't worth it. We used to have events on a similarly small lot and it was always the newbies in the high HP cars that had the near-misses. I felt at times it was only luck that those near-misses didn't result in an incident. Not long ago I had a similar incident on a sufficiently large lot that had runoffs large enough that you wouldn't even think about safety. I got the Impreza upset on an uphill slalom and slide uphill, off course over a curb sideways and into the grass. Had it been a real curb and not a speed-bump type curb, I would have ended up on the roof. Anyways, back to the incident in the neighboring Region... The car was totaled / sold off due to damage. The driver was not a novice and not new to the site. Same voices in the background saying he tried to correct when he should have, blah, blah. Some voices in the foreground yelling "off with his head" wrapped in personal attacks akin to the tone of what BillGammon expresses.

I was a mere spectator of the entire spectacle until I had to address some individuals directly to deal with the negative tone.

Of course it was just a car.

In another incident I had the unfortunate experience of watching a Club Racer die on course after hitting a wall going 70+ and after his car was engulfed in flames. There were many opinions as to why and some issues were present on track that were questionable. We as a Region stuck together and though we had differences of opinion as to what long-term actions to take to corect the issues, we held such communication face-to-face and were civil. Things did change - for the better... and there was little to no public bickering.

Either way, both events are history now, and here's what I've learned:

1) Bickering in public accomplishes nothing but ill-will. It forms the basis of long-term disagreements that pull Regions (communities...) apart. Either do something positive in pursuit of a solution or S T F U. Many people, often not even directly involved in the incident, always feel the need to "butt in" with generally negative remarks. BillGammon fits into this category quite well.

2) Communication is often the real issue, not actions. I think if Corn-Picker had received a more formal response listing the specifics of what the Region will do in the future to avoid such incidents from it's RE, he probably would have let it go long ago. It's called PR. It's often lacking within the SCCA when such incidents happen. If the wrtten replies he posted are the total of what he received, I would call that inadequate. I read that he feels he hasn't been heard and responded to and given due respect. Yeah, it's easy to call him a "kid" or "newbie" or whatever which is totally missing the point.

3) From a Regions and the SCCAs perspective, they have to CYA. They don't know if they're going to get sued and don't want to reveal any "evidence". In this sick litigous society we live in, that's just the way it is. It doesn't do any of us any good. The solution, of course, is personal responsibility for ones actions. I would never sue or likely complain in a similar incident but that's just me. Anyways, I'm guessing this is why the Region in question didn't respond in more detail when they should have.

4) There is always A LOT more going on than you think. This is a very serious issue for Regions and I'm sure it's taken it's toll on the Region as a whole. That said, this isn't an opportunity for individuals within the Region to act inappropriately either about the incident (not filling, deleting posts...) or towards the individual in question (e.g. BillGammon).

5) Accountability. Don't look for accountability in an organization composed entirely of volunteers. It's like the government, but nobody gets paid. You can figure it out. Just keep #4 in mind and realize that just because you don't have somebody stepping up and taking the fall, doesn't mean things aren't being done to fix the situation.

A professor and good friend of mine once said that professors argue so much about departmental politics because there's so little at stake. So true. Keep some perspective in trying times and things won't seem so serious. Be civil and be respectful.

I got to get this off my chest.

SWVRSCCA member, I was also in the timing trailer when this accident accorded and watched it with my own eyes.

The real problem I have with this is that the event was in march, you got in your car after putting a spare tire or 2 on and proceeded to drive from event all the way back to Morgantown, 150+ miles. You admitted it was your fault for trying to drive to hard. That day there was some one in a STI who came out of a turn and never left off the gas and spin a 540 with out lifting, not a sign of someone with any kind of basic car control. (not saying it was you).

Here is some lost quotes.

I came out of the corner hot, I corrected and over-corrected as previously mentioned, and the rear-end got loose. The rear-end got a lot looser than I expected it to and into the curb I went. I was just going too fast for my skill level. At my next auto-x I'll go at 7-8/10ths instead of 10/10ths.

I feel like a complete butt. All I can do is pay up and hope to learn from the experience. I wasn't hurt, the car's not bad (it could have been much worse), and I will recover. I'll have to eat Ramen Noodles and home made chili for three months, but I will recover.

I'm lucky to "only" be out about $1700 by my estimation. I fragged one rim, bent two severely enough that I will not drive on them now, but not so severely that I couldn't limp home. I took chunks of rubber out of two tires, so I ordered two new RE070s and four ASA KA3 winter/temporary rims.

The car is not leaking fluids, as far as I can tell I bent nothing underneath (big sigh), and there is no shake or shimmy up to 55 mph (I didn't dare go above this on the donut spare). The only thing wrong (besides the rims and tires), is that the wheel is about 15° off in the clockwise direction, and the car pulls to the left. Hopefully an alignment will fix it. The car "feels" normal except for the aforementioned pulling.

I would like to thank eneryone for being supoortive. I don't drive fast or agressive on the streets, and this auto-x was my first fast and agreesive experience outside of empty parking lots and snow covered fields. As the announcer said earlier that day at the auto-x, "there's nothing wrong with screwing up as long as you learn from it."

You can bet your dollars that I'll be at the auto-x in Clarksburg in April. When I screw up and make an butt of myself doing something stupid, I just want to try again until I can succeed. I will see you at the next auto-x, although I wouldn't count on me going back to Charleston for auto-x anytime soon

Quote:
Originally posted by KC

Where on the video did the 'incident' happen?

--kC



On the right side of the straight, after the left hand turn. Coming out of the left I corrected and then over-corrected back, and hit the curb on the right side oQuote:
Originally posted by Cobreth
I see Davis broke the rear end out a little bit on that first left turn, I guess that's what happened to Joe. The WRX never broke loose, even in the wet spots. I think leaving the DCCD in 'auto' would be a good idea for an STi.

-Matt



It was in auto. I was toying with the idea of moving some more torque to the back but after the first run I didn't see a need to with the way the back was coming out.f the straight.

I'm replacing my suspension pieces and getting a four wheel alignment this weekend. It looks like the control arm (and possibly sway bar and endlinks) took all of the damage, the control arm is definitely fragged. I can't "see" any frame or strut damage (no cracked or chipped paint or visible damage), but only an alignment will tell.

The damage would be relatively cheap (< $300) if it weren't for the 3 rims/2 tires Only one rim is bent, the other two only have very minor lip damage, but even if it's just a little lip damage, I don't see an alternative other than completely replacing them.

As far as the course design, I don't think I have enough experience to say. I will say that I didn't try to keep correcting when I started to lose control (there's a video on the net of a guy in a Corvette doing this and eventually he hits someone). I over-corrected once and got pointed at the curb, i tried to correct/slow down, but it was too little too late. I will also say that I wasn't afraid to go 100% (or 120% as the case may be) because of my lack of experience. I did have the thought that "autocross is safe I can go 100%" in the back of my mind. I wasn't trying to get FTD or being competitive, I was just having fun driving fast and was taken by suprise at the snap oversteer when I over-corrected. Hindsight is 20/20 of course. Not trying to lay any blame, it's 100% my responsibility, but I wanted to let you know the thought process of an autocross newbie who had an unfortunate accident. Hopefully in the future similar accidents can be avoided at this course, and that would be a good thing to come out of my offroad excursion.

I do plan to autocross again (and will post pics when I do). I'll also be selling sandwhiches and sodas at the next autocross I go to. So all you locals who feel some pity for me can buy a can of soda and a sandwhich for $2.00 and help me cut my losses


So some time passes and in August we recieve notice from national that you were wanting some sort of compensation. At that same time we also learned that the SSS in charge at the event failed to turn in the report. (our bad)

So in march it was totally your fault and could fix it cheap, but come August you want something and its everyone's fault but yours.


Some more time passes and were still trying to get the ex-SSS from that event to send in all the paper work. Finally in February we get things straightened out with National. We reconstructed the layout and measured it, low and behold it meets requirements. With this information My self and several board member travel to Indiana for a big meeting with the CEN-DEV members to work things out.




And that's about it.

I really hate to dig up old stuff but this BS kills me.

I got to get this off my chest.

SWVRSCCA member, I was also in the timing trailer when this accident accorded and watched it with my own eyes.

The real problem I have with this is that the event was in march, you got in your car after putting a spare tire or 2 on and proceeded to drive from event all the way back to Morgantown, 150+ miles. You admitted it was your fault for trying to drive to hard. That day there was some one in a STI who came out of a turn and never left off the gas and spin a 540 with out lifting, not a sign of someone with any kind of basic car control. (not saying it was you).

Here is some lost quotes.








So some time passes and in August we recieve notice from national that you were wanting some sort of compensation. At that same time we also learned that the SSS in charge at the event failed to turn in the report. (our bad)

So in march it was totally your fault and could fix it cheap, but come August you want something and its everyone's fault but yours.


Some more time passes and were still trying to get the ex-SSS from that event to send in all the paper work. Finally in February we get things straightened out with National. We reconstructed the layout and measured it, low and behold it meets requirements. With this information My self and several board member travel to Indiana for a big meeting with the CEN-DEV members to work things out.




And that's about it.

I really hate to dig up old stuff but this BS kills me.

I say directly in the post you quoted that the incident would have been relatively cheap if not for the 3 BBS rims and two tires. RE070s are $180 each, BBS rims are $400 each easily... I never had a high expectation of compensation, and I don't think I'm entitled to much if any, as the incident was mostly my fault. I would have been grateful that some might be thrown my way if the SCCA did an investigation and found the region grossly out of compliance, which I believed the region to be. But it didn't happen so I didn't pursue it any further.

Initially (March-May) I did lay all of the blame on myself, but after attending auto-x's in other regions (June-August) I came to the conclusion that the SWVR was half-assed with regards to safety relative to other regions. I was also indignant over the audacity shown by SWVR in attempting to cover up the incident. "Forgot to file a report" is clearly a euphemism for burying the incident. If the region simply "forgot to file a report" the threads on the SWVR website about the incident (and the subsequent lawn repair) wouldn't have been deleted.

Belief in substandard safety procedures alone would not have been enough to motivate me to contact the SCCA, for that motivation it took the addition of what I perceieved to be a coverup by the SWVR. So, that brings us to where we were a month or so ago.

This posting is a culmination of a lot of things. I must say one of the reasons for posting was that the mailings I received from the SCCA were so vague as to be useless to me. I had no idea based on the communications I received from the SCCA if any meaningful action had been taken. I had no idea based on the communications from the SCCA if they had any written records on this incident. I attempted to contact the SCCA 2-3 times to get more specific information on what exactly they did, but again their communications to me were so overly vague and dodgy as to be useless. The only way I knew to ensure this incident was remembered was through a highly viewed (albeit controversial) posting on a forum where people involved with motorsports reside. Maybe I could have handled this posting with more eloquence, but what's done is done.

Tryng to use perspective I think zzyzx hit it right on the nose, we're probably arguing so viciously because so little is at stake. I think all involved could have done a lot differently. I could have communicated with less public airings and pissing and moaning, SWVR could have filed the reports in a timely manner, and the SCCA could have communicated with me to let me know what specific actions were taken to make sure this wouldn't happen in the future.

I'm happy to let this thread die as its purpose is served. I will post no more in this thread. Any more communications, flames, or otherwise I will respond to by PM.

Initially (March-May) I did lay all of the blame on myself, but after attending auto-x's in other regions (June-August) I came to the conclusion that the SWVR was half-assed with regards to safety relative to other regions

The classic it bugged you in the beginning, but rather than letting it go and chocking it up to experience, you stewed on it. It would be tantamount to me blaming the NHRA for putting VHT down and prepping a track where I got TOO MUCH TRACTION and then broke something or ended up in a wall. Of course it would be the NHRA's fault that the wall was there, right? I mean if they didnt mandate them I wouldnt have hit it.

Accidents happen. Thats why they are called accidents not 'on purposes'. You dont deny that initially you admitted you overdrove your car and your abilities. End of discussion. You are lucky that your lack of skill didnt hurt you or anyone that was nearby.

Man up and bite the bullet. Did what the SCCA do or not do in this case really matter? They revised their layouts. No plans are foolproof, for fools get in Subaru's and autocross. Did you crash because of how you were driving? Yes. From what I can see the apex of most of the corners are actually clear or as reasonably clear as can be expected in a PARKING LOT that isnt designed for racing.

If this is your point (and I am guessing that it is), that Club racing isnt for everyone, wow a revelation. To quote Smee, "I have had an apostrophe...a bolt of lightning has hit my brain." Is the NHRA for everyone? If it was would you have the IHRA and AHRA as well as local grudge matches?

The SCCA guidelines are abritrary at best. Chances are, before this incident you did not know what the policy regarding distance from the curb. Chances are that the only reason that you discovered this is because you were looking for a way to squeeze the region for money. If you lost control of the car, the only person you can blame is yourself. Granted, most of us have lost control on occasions, but any resulting damage from that is our own responsibilty. Autocrossing at a regional level is grassroots at best. Just a bunch of local folks with a common interest getting together. Everyone have a small share of responsibility, especially when it comes to being responsible for yourself.

I agree with 99% of the replies. What an idiot, I like how he said that the car overcorrected itself. You gotta pay to play and its this type of finger pointing that is ruining our country. Take responsibility for your own actions, grow a pair, and learn how to drive your car. As Sanford always said "You big dummie"

Tryng to use perspective I think zzyzx hit it right on the nose, we're probably arguing so viciously because so little is at stake.
Whether what is a stake is "a little" or "a lot" is going to depend on what side of the fence you stand on.

The region stands to lose a site, the SSS stands to lose his SSS license, the region also stands to lose the ability to sanction autocrosses for the foreseeable future. Considering SCCA is not-for-profit, and many regions do not carry large sums in their coffers, expecting any form of compensation also means that the region may not be able to upgrade equipment or do other things that require cash, and this could be an even bigger problem if they can't hold autocrosses for lack of a SSS or venue.

I autocrossed at a truck stop this weekend. It was such a tight course, I never got out of first gear. I could have spun and hit a truck, a jersey barrier or a concrete retaining wall between the boundary of the course and the truck scales. I could have turned around and gone home, after driving 2.5 hours to get there. If I'd hit something, yeah, I'd be mad, but at myself. The region did the best they could with the site's shortcomings and the safety rules. There's only so much we can do to prevent accidents. Otherwise, everyone should just stay locked in the "safe" confines of their homes, and die by stepping on a bar of soap in the shower.....

Karen

I've been to many events that were far more "dangerous" to the car than your little event. Its simply a fact of the lack of good lots being avalible in most regions. I've been to one that I bumped the limiter in 2nd (approx 80mph) heading at a curb... and negotated a turn just before it at said speed dumping me out maybe 15ft from it. Guess what every run but that one I was doing a nice safe 50mph or so because *I* was being responsible for my safety and braked when I didn't "have" to brake. That run was the product of learning just what the cars limits were on said surface, and the layout of the course. guess what, NO ONE had issues hitting something in that lot with its numourus close light poles, curbs, etc. despite 10+ novices attending.

More over the danger of the STi and cars like it is that you think the car is a magic bullet and will allways pull your rear end out of the fire when things go wrong. It won't. More over you should learn the #1 rule of safe autoX. If you start to loose the car... Ditch the run as you already blew a winning run. Trying to save it before or during a spin is a GREAT way to eat it. How would you feel if you hit a cornerworker instead of a curb? GET IT???

Basicly I feel that the only "bad" thing this region did was cover up the incedent. They should have jumped the hoops required and basicly said... Ooops we need a better autox n00b program to make sure that people understand the sport.

just an outside observer's take:

The fact is that you are a child and one year after an incident still can't assume the responsibility for what happened.

The fact is that your organization still hasn't assumed full responsibility for their share of what happened either.

Our region should have done a few things differently (after your incident), but that in no way alleviates you from the burden of being a virgin, novice driver in a car with capabilities and horsepower so wildly out of your league that you shouldn't even have the keys.

not only is this statement ridiculous, since 95% of all autocrossers (and fully 99% of drivers) are in this same situation, this also goes both ways. The driver should have done a few things differently, but that in no way alleviates your region from the burden of providing a safe course for novice drivers. It would be just as true to say that your region's members are so wildly out of their league that they shouldn't be designing courses. Of course, neither statement is representative of the entire situation, and it's difficult to design courses in tight lots.

However, if you aren't going to design a novice friendly course, don't accept novice registrations.

I hope you go on to learn a lot about life and driving.

I hope your club goes on to learn a lot about life and course preparation. People (especially novices) generally autocross their only car, unlike experts, who may have a prepped second car that they can afford to damage.

You swept into our town, entered in a region with a blemish free safety record and proceeded to drag us through hell that has yet to abate. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Your club put on an event for a driver that had a blemish free autocross safety record also, and proceeded to drag him through hell also by designing a course that violated design rules, not filing incident reports, and denying your own responsibility whenever possible. I hope you guys understand that you are lucky no one was seriously injured, and that you're all sufficiently ashamed of yourselves too.


You guys think this is one sided, but neither of you are fully accepting the blame you deserve, or the potential future ramifications of your actions.

Of course the driver is ultimately responsible, and I agree with everyone else here that he is responsible for the damages to his car. Especially since he was overdriving (according to witnesses) and tried to save this run (according to himself) rather than putting both feet in. But, novices will be attending events, and the course designers need to design courses that are safe. The fact that the club treated this situation (especially the aftermath) with total apathy is disappointing to me. The penalties to the club are already significant enough to me, also, so I think ultimately this debate is for nothing.

Everyone already has their punishment, all that's left is for the parties to fully accept their responsibility, so that history won't repeat itself.

I'm not going to bother even mentioning about the SCCA's reaction, it was as expected for a MINOR, although unfortunate incident. But I will respond to other things:

1) If they own the site, then they own the content. I agree it may have been in poor form to delete posts. But, if nick wanted to he could come in here and write "Jeremy's an F'ing Wanker" over every post I've ever written and there's nothing I could do about it. The internet is only the land of free speech to those who PAY for it to be there, you're spending other peoples money every character you type.

2) I know at my first Auto-X I made MYSELF drive under control untill I felt comfortable stretching towards the limit. Now, three years later, I spun my car twice during yesterdays event, but I know how to control it and there's that instant where I see the 6'5" 300lb instructor that took me out my first time yelling "BOTH FEET IN" and I do.

3) Which leads me to my next point, instructing novices, I've been to places where novices are treated like leppers and I've been to others where there treated like new friends. I think my region does a pretty good job with them, as the four or five posters from this thread that have been to our events will agree. The region should have learned to spend extra time with the novices and explain to them to take is easy, and to watch out in certain places. That is about all you can ask. I didn't see anything too bad from those pics, but you can't tell from poorly taken pics that aren't at the right angles. My region has done everything from sitting people down to asking them to leave because of the safety issues they cause from over driving their abilities.

4) I've been to other organizations and other regions where I will not run any more. One place I won't go to after being at a race and seeing cars going 100+ MPH towards a curb, and 25' be damned 250' wouldn't have mattered. I was doing almost 80 in those places and didn't feel safe, so I dailed it back. I didn't feel safe while working the course either. Now I chose not to race there. We have region members that do not race their cars at some of our lots because of the power/size/surface combo and they know that getting out will not be good.

PS - please read this thread:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=498019
for how to better deal with your own driving mistakes...

I have been an SCCA Member for four years now. I can agree that the SCCA does not always handle things as efficiently as possible. The stewards do not get paid anything, and they actually pay for their membership fees. The only way to change how the SCCA operates is to volunteer. Volunteering is not asking if you can design the next auto-x course or assisting in the timing trailer. Go to your regions monthly meeting, talk to the person in charge, and tell them that you want to voulunteer. I am sure that they will have something for you to do as everyone is overworked for what they get paid (nothing). That being said, here are some of my experiences with losing control of my car.

I have been club racing for three years, and autocrossing for six. I have spun out in auto-x's, contacted other cars at 140 MPH, spun out at 120 MPH, run off track at over 100, T-boned other cars at 70, and I recently hit a tire wall at 100. All of these incidents (except the T-bone) have been my fault because I was driving over my head. Cars do not overcorrect on their own, the driver makes mistakes.

Now, to expect any financial compensation for your damaged car is ludacrious. It does not matter if the course is not to safety standards. The fact is you and you alone decided to auto-x that day. If you felt the course was unsafe, you should not have driven that event. Period.

When I autocrossed for the first time, I spun out because I was driving beyond my limits. What I have learned from all of my incidents is that the key to being fast is to build up speed by intentionally underdriving, and then pushing the car more as you become more comfortable. I, like most novices, thought that I was a great driver when I first autocrossed. I was humbled very quickly.

Any motorsport event is very tough for novices. As you become a more experienced driver, you will want to run courses that are more challenging. It would suck pretty bad if all auto-x courses were simple so that the handful of novices that were present would be more comfortable.

Just a small update:
The SWVR region had a great AutoX this past Sunday.(I got 1st in SM class and 2nd overall, Yea!!) Challenging event, well organized and fast. All SCCA course guidelines are not only met but safely exceeded. We have not had any accidents or safety issues since Mr. Corn-Pickers wreck.

Any and all newbie drivers are welcomed to the chapter.
+The newbie drivers are given a thorough safety talk after and in addition to the drivers meeting.
+The newbies are also given a walk-thru (5-10 mins after the normal drivers walk through) by a senior and very experienced AutoX member. Multiple walkthrous are encouraged.
+The newbie driver MUST have a veteran AutoX'er in the car with them in their first few runs and throughout the day if they wish.
+Many of the newbie drivers (including a STi driver who is now rather fast) return to this chapter to race.

Just thought it was important to share this information so people know the current safety conditions that is chapter is performing.

Truly,

Davis K. Powers
http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com

+The newbie driver MUST have a veteran AutoX'er in the car with them in their first few runs and throughout the day if they wish.


This is one area where I wish the regs were more strict.

At our local events, the "Pro" class drivers work assignment is to be available to provide instruction to new drivers, and drivers are "encouraged" to have an instructor, but not required.

Twice at the last event, we had cars get off course and hold up the event. One car didn't get in between the cones until he was 3/4 of the way through the course, and the other driver took a left instead of a right and cut off a good section of the course. Luckily there weren't any incidents...but the risk was there.

It would suck pretty bad if all auto-x courses were simple so that the handful of novices that were present would be more comfortable.

agreed, but it's always good to give the most difficult sections of the course plenty of room from other objects, in my opinion. If you have a section that has to run between or against curbs, putting a very tight section before it to slow the section down and the like, while putting the more aggressive sections in areas of the course with plenty of runoff room helps. It's often more experienced drivers that are pushing the limits more that spin or go off, but they're better at recovering.

sounds like the region is taking good safety precautions and running safe events. handling novice drivers is an essential part of successful autocrosses. and, autocross is about safely learning the limits of a car, and improving driver skill near those limits, to me. More novice autocrossers means less drivers who are dangerous in panic handling situations. :)

This is one area where I wish the regs were more strict.

At our local events, the "Pro" class drivers work assignment is to be available to provide instruction to new drivers, and drivers are "encouraged" to have an instructor, but not required.

Twice at the last event, we had cars get off course and hold up the event. One car didn't get in between the cones until he was 3/4 of the way through the course, and the other driver took a left instead of a right and cut off a good section of the course. Luckily there weren't any incidents...but the risk was there.

learning the course is sometimes the hardest thing a novice has to do, especially those who aren't overdriving the car. It can take several autocrosses for someone to learn how to learn the course from the coursewalk and actually push the car, rather than trying to stay on course.

agreed, but it's always good to give the most difficult sections of the course plenty of room from other objects, in my opinion.
yeah, but the difficult part with newbies is you don't know what they'll do. its easy where to predict where someone driving a proper line and giving proper imputs to the car will spin if they get a bit too greedy. its much harder for someone who is doing who knows what out there. not that this is a bad thing, its how we learn. however, having designed a number of auto-x/rally-x courses, I can tell you that trying to take novice driving techniques into account is very challenging. Just like in this incident. Looking at the picture of where the crash happened, I wouldn't have expected anyone to hit that curb. as the person who did stated, they kept over correcting. there is just no way to predict that.

anyway, glad to hear the region has things going well again. we do a number of those newbie helping items here as well to some degree, and it seems to work pretty well.

its easy where to predict where someone driving a proper line and giving proper inputs to the car will spin if they get a bit too greedy.
Well said. All Solo2 accidents are preventable, but some are less preventable than others. Course designers can control everything except the drivers.

Our biggest incident in the Oregon Region involved a car that actually crashed about 200 feet from where the driver lost control. Everyone that wasn't watching asked, "How did he end up there?" The answer... He didn't know when to quit. The guy totalled his car in the middle of a straight. Who'd have thought?

And in those cases, submitting an incident report should end up clearing the club, and confirming that they designed the course prudently. Of course it's impossible to guarantee that a driver won't try to keep his foot in and save a run, even a novice. All you can do is instruct them not to try to save a run in the course walk, provide a co-driver, and try to design the course to be wide where it's possible to carry a lot of speed.

Though it's common knowledge to experienced autocrossers, most novices have no idea how much damage a curb can do to their car if they try to save a run. Lightpoles seem to be pretty universally understood, however :)

The fact is you and you alone decided to auto-x that day. If you felt the course was unsafe, you should not have driven that event. Period.

Hello,

sprinkdawg, what if "you and you alone" have no idea what is safe or unsafe? What if (oh the horrors) you are a complete novice and have nothing by which to judge the course? What if you've never driven your car beyond 5/10ths on the street (I know, it's a crazy thought), so you don't have any way of recognizing that a particular turn will cause your car to handle in a particular way?

I think drivers should be responsible for their actions, but I don't think you can say that the course designer is free to do whatever he wants. If I sit and think long and hard enough, I can probably design a series of corners to completely upset just about any particular car (ie, give me some time, and I'll make a Z06-killer, and some more time and I'll add a subsequent corner that's a WRX-killer, etc.). The novice is the least likely person to be able to read the danger.

Anyway, my point is just that the rules and regulations that the SCCA has come up with are not arbitrary. They are not designed to make a fun course impossible to design. They are not designed to make a course absolutely idiot proof. They are simply a compromise between excitement, danger, fun, and safety that experience has shown to make the risk acceptable and the fun, well, enjoyable.

If you cut short margins of safety, you're taking some responsibility onto yourself. Your course has now moved the fun<->safety margin away from what the SCCA feels is "safe enough" for noobs. You should now own up to that reduced margin of safety and take some responsibility for the consequences...

Just my thoughts...

Joel

But I have seen no evidence that the course designer "cut short margins of safety". I don't see any picture that shows the course < 25' from solid objects. There were some sections of the course I might have wanted to see closer shots of, but given the pictures that are there, I can't say definitively that the course breaks any rules.

So at that point, it's a "he said; she said" between a trained SSS and a rookie. And simply put, the SSS should have a pretty good idea of how far the course is from any solid objects. I wouldn't expect the rookie to.

As for What if you've never driven your car beyond 5/10ths on the street (I know, it's a crazy thought), so you don't have any way of recognizing that a particular turn will cause your car to handle in a particular way?Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths? Sorry, but that just seems DUMB to me. Most newbies drive at maybe 4/10ths their first time around the track. By the end of the day, maybe they're up to 7.5/10ths. IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.

Hello,

But I have seen no evidence that the course designer "cut short margins of safety".

True. The only "evidence" I would suggest being critical about is the deletion of the discussion of the problem.

As for Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths?

Personally? The announcer was calling me 'the grinning kid'. I was driving quite poorly (tires squealing like nuts while turning a time a good 10 seconds a lap slower than other people in my class).

I was told to be careful in a particular area of the track where it was explained to me that a big mistake could make a mess of my car. I did spin out that day... in an area with a wide runoff. I drove much less hard in the "dangerous" area.

After that, I did spin out from time to time at autocrosses. I think that's one of the advantages of autocross over track events. I've never spun at a track because it's not as safe to spin on a track at track speeds and I don't have the margin of safety provided by a full cage. Autocross lets you explore the limits of your car at reasonable speeds, with minimal danger.

If there's a high-danger area, everyone, noobs or pros, should be warned of the danger, just in case it's not obvious.

IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.

Hahahhaha... :D But seriously, it's been said several times in this thread. Mistakes were made on both sides. Both sides need to have learned from their mistakes. It seems like both have, even though both made mistakes in dealing with their mistakes.

Joel

I can't say definitively that the course breaks any rules.

They're guidelines, not rules. And just because some weren't "broken" doesn't necessarily mean the course was safe.


So at that point, it's a "he said; she said" between a trained SSS and a rookie.


$h!t happens. Why does it have to be "he said she said"? I think the root of this problem was the "he said she said" attitude, not really the incident itself.


As for Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths?


I did. Should I be barned from autox for life now? I thought as experienced autox'er it was out job to help recruit and teach? I personally attend to as many newbie locals as I can, perticularly when I see they're having trouble. They don't way to crash and burn any more than the SSS wants them to.


Sorry, but that just seems DUMB to me. Most newbies drive at maybe 4/10ths their first time around the track. By the end of the day, maybe they're up to 7.5/10ths. IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.

Stupid for a newbie, perhaps, but not dumb. That's to say, if one lacks the skill and knowledge to pull it off, that's one thing. If, on the other hand one consistently fails to learn from their mistakes then perhaps they are too dumb to autox. I didn't see any evidence of this in this situation.

You know what sounds dumb to me? This:


I autocrossed at a truck stop this weekend. It was such a tight course, I never got out of first gear. I could have spun and hit a truck, a jersey barrier or a concrete retaining wall between the boundary of the course and the truck scales.


And no, I'm not bagging on Karen. She very eloquently demonstrates that some sites are marginal and have a much greater chance of something bad happening. As an experienced autox'er I can assess the situation and choose not to compete. I will not assume, however, than a new person that's never autox'd before would be able to make an informed decision about this.

- Steve

And no, I'm not bagging on Karen. She very eloquently demonstrates that some sites are marginal and have a much greater chance of something bad happening. As an experienced autox'er I can assess the situation and choose not to compete. I will not assume, however, than a new person that's never autox'd before would be able to make an informed decision about this.
Aw, c'mon now Steve, no need to mince words around me. You really think I'm just a dumb blonde, don't you? ;) ;)

Seriously, many moons ago, while I was still a scared, inconsistent, and inexperienced autocrosser, Old Dominion Region held an event at Langley Speedway, a small oval track. Part of the course was on the infield, but most of it was on the track itself. In the first heat, I saw a 5.0 Capri (Mustang) and a GTA TransAm wreck, badly. I wanted to leave, right then and there. My boyfriend at the time (who was codriving with me in my Camaro) and another friend who was driving an ASP Viper both convinced me to stay, though I said if any other cars wrecked, I was leaving.

I was so scared when I was on course, that I couldn't push the car at all. I was some 7 seconds behind my boyfriend, and while I was not usually near his times at that point in my autocross "career", I wasn't usually that far back.

To this day, that event gives me the willies. I think if I had it to do over again, I would have left, even knowing nothing happened to me. It just wasn't fun, driving that scared.

Karen