During yesterdays practice event, Tom Berry asked to drive my SM WRX. One of his daughters has a stock Impreza RS ... which he drove in our very wet February race instead of his usual Vette. For those that don't know ... Tom is a I believe seven time National AX Champ, including being the current ProSolo overall Champ.

Since it was a practice event I had a pair of old 225/45/17 Hoosier S04's in front and a pair of old 225/45 Victoracers in back. To balance the car I used 5 mm spacers in back and softened up my rear dampers ... a lot.

I had been having oversteer issues ... and kept softening the rear and lessening the rear tire pressures to get more grip back there. Eventually it wasn't too bad.

When Tom drive it ... he was getting a lot of understeer. But it was interesting to see the difference in our driving. On his one lap he bettered my fast time by a second and said there was another 1.5 seconds in the car. I got one more lap and took off 0.3 seconds.

Because I use to have a problem going into corners too fast ... didn't we all start that way! ... I tend to brake a bit early and go for a shallow line on the tighter corners. I start a bit wide if I can, get the tail out under weight transfer, get on the gas ... late apex and go. I'm trying to keep the revs up.

He said forget it ... always take any corner that's 90 degrees or tighter by braking late, going straight for the apex, rotate and go. He says you can't gain time in slow corners ... only lose time ... and it's best to shorten the real estate ... don't worry about the revs. His method meant that my car would understeer badly under power exit, even with the front LSD. He's use to racing a Vette ... where he can balance the car with power.

Because my usual set-up includes 15 mm spacers in front, 245/40 Hoosiers ... I have had to up my rear camber to -3. On our typically fast National style AX courses I find I gain more with this set-up then with a set-up that allows extra easy rotation. My (first) win in our last race shows me that my set-up is working for me.

The main difference between us otherwise ... was that he was extra aggresive in his late braking and he was very aggressive and fast in cutting in after passing slalom cones. He remarked that my anti-lock ('03 WRX) was inconsistent. I said yup, that's why I had stopped using it (pulled the fuse) but recently went back to using it with fresh R tires and with my earlier lighter braking.

He also noted that racing a Subaru (in classes with other strong cars) was always going to be a bit frustrating because everything we do is just a band-aid applied to a brick. He said that there were only a few cars that are really purpose designed for the sport we try to adapt them to: Vetts, Miata, M3's ...

Any thoughts, comments. Should I continue with my set-up and driving style or go with his advice, loosen the car up and ... ?

btw. My goal for yesterdays practice was to practice left foot braking. I've been trying to practice on the street ... but this was the first time on the track. After stalling the car on my first lap at the finish :lol: I started to get the hang of it. Tom said that "every" top National driver that he knew, except Gary Thomason, used left foot braking. He said it was especially important to get the most out of a turbo car ... getting the rev's up early.

My best time yesterday was a 58.5, he did a 57.8 with my car ... and with his ASP Vette got into the 53's! Tom is usually No.1 in our Indexed results ...

http://images9.fotki.com/v163/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoNight-vi.jpg

http://images6.fotki.com/v161/photos/4/43793/1961534/TomBerry1stASP-vi.jpg

Very cool, did you let him ride with you to see if there was anything else he could advise on?

And there are a few guys in our region wearing jackets who do not LFB.

IMO, Lessen the rear camber and embrace the looseness!

3??? We are at less then .3!

Also, LFB is not necessary at all. Its a matter of preference :)

-Tom

Personally, I would lobby the region to use less cones... :lol:

Seriously, though, I might just continue to develop (driving)as you are...that's the difference between setting up your own car and driving it to suit your style, or building a car and letting a hotshoe drive it their way.

For example, I would NOT let Tom Hoppe drive my car for the purpose and intent of suggesting changes to its setup. He's Tom, he's faster than me, and he drives "differently" than I... :(

Also, not everyone who drives Subarus FAST, is a LFB'r.

Although I would like to become one soon.............

We ran out of time ... but he told me that at the next chance ... he wanted me to drive with him observing, and then back and forth. Very cool ... look what happens after you win one (local) event! :p He does drive as many different cars as he can. He feels it's important to be able to get in any car and be fast, quickly. Tom feels that within two corners he knows how a car should be driven ... although, he would have been faster in my car if he had controlled the amount of under steer that he was setting up ... and he acknowledge that. He's not THAT familiar with our cars ... an STI owner asked him if he wanted it in Manual ... and Tom clearly didn't realize that the owner was talking about the DCCD.

For example, I would NOT let Tom Hoppe drive my car for the purpose and intent of suggesting changes to its setup. He's Tom, he's faster than me, and he drives "differently" than I... :(


I don't think that Tom has yet to figure out how to make the car loose enough for him. What the rest of us feel is crazy loose makes Tom decide that maybe an additional 1/4" of rear toe out would work better. :lol: He keeps preaching the "loose is fast" methodology to me and it works for him but to me loose (or at least as loose as Tom likes the car) still feels out of control.

I think it's all about having fast hands ... although the ladies might disagree ... :-)

... intuitively correcting as things happen ... rather then reacting a "moment" later ...

I think it's all about having fast hands ... although the ladies might disagree ... :-)

... intuitively correcting as things happen ... rather then reacting a "moment" later ...


Bingo!

Fast Subaru = Loose Subaru

The car just likes being treated like a bitch.

That is the question ... in order to be fast ... do our cars need to be set up for the Tom's of the AX world?

If you are very loose ... are you going to lose time in the fast sections ... might that negate being fast in the slower sections ... where one can't necessarily gain much time ... or does being a bit faster in all of the slow sections add up enough to make up for the fast sections ? I remember Tom H. saying that his car is so loose that he can barely make it through the slaloms ... maybe that only works after a certain amount of experience (to make up for natural talent! :-)

Maybe bring extra loose works best for street tires ... and doesn't necessarily apply to my Hoosiers? After my clean and tidy winning run at the last race ... I got ragged during the fun runs ... and couldn't beat my race time ... even though I knew the course much better by now ... and usually go faster and faster during fun runs ... when the pressure is off ?

The more I learn, the less I know ... :rolleyes: :)

That is the question ... in order to be fast ... do our cars need to be set up for the Tom's of the AX world? Absolutely not! I drove Billy Brooks' car during the challenge at the Atlanta Pro after my car broke (Thanks Billy!) Billy's car isn't setup NEARLY as loose as mine, but it fits his driving style. He is fast as HELL in that car, but I wasn't able to come close to his times in my 4 runs in the car. Its just a matter of driving style.

-Tom

I can deal with the looseness as time has gone by I've just driven a car that is more and more loose. Totally badarse in the sweepers, a little bit of a handful in slaloms. What's it's made me do is learn how to turn earlier than I ever thought necessary...and that's been a good thing for sure.

But I'm with Mako; the more I learn, the less I know. But that's the great thing about it; I always get to keep learning. :)

-Biggly

I also say lessen the camber (and told you that in SD). A little toe out won't hurt either.

Ask yourself... where will you lose the most time? In the fast stuff, or the slow stuff? There's only one correct answer. The slow stuff. You need to get out of the slow stuff asap to make the most of the course. In order to do that, you need to have slow speed rotation.

In the fast stuff... just hold on and anticipate what your car is gonig to do. It requires seat time. :)

--kC

Car setup is all about your driving style and how you want the car to behave in certin sitiations.

DrBiggly's WRX is really really neutral...I like that in a car. Tom and Biggly really have a setup going on with it for this year. Its the first non-R compound autox car that I have driven that will actually rotate like I would want it to.

Believe it or not, my 87 SUBARU RX has turn in all to hell and back....but its NOT by anymeans loose. Its VERY stuck and stable, only gets out of hands when you do something stupid....like snap the wheel one way and jab the brakes...*woops, im going backwards now*... :lol: The car does not rotate like I want it to...but its 90% within what I want. I still get some push on power exit...and some push in the middle if I get on it too early.

Probably the fastest SUBARU on an AX course will not even drive like a SUBARU after its done and starts setting competitive National level SM times. Granted Biggly/Tom's car is still 100% a SUBARU, but its in a class that you cant really do alot, and while it IS fast...im talking about Street Mod class and beyond.

Depending on what you want the car to do...here's what I would do....

First, what suspension are you running? What are the rates? What size sway bars? How much toe front and rear?

Since you are in SM...how many of the original suspension bushings still exist?

-3 Deg negative in the rear? more like...you only need -1 AT MOST. Like Tom/Biggly said..they are running, IIRC, -0.25 in the rear with a teeny bit of toe out.

-2.5~-3 in the front should suffice for such rubber you are running.

I would almost say put the ABS fuse back in....but then again, its driver preference...my RX doesnt have ABS...but sometimes I wish it did.

Since you are in SM...drivetrain mods are unlimited. What all do you ahve done engine and tranny wise? A front LSD would help, regardless of what others say. If you are AX'in a SUBARU, its needs a front LSD, PERIOD. My RX only has one LSD...in the BACK. Yes, the center is an open diff. On some courses...I am loosing over a second by not being able to get the power down. Most courses I can pick up atleast 0.5 at a minimum if I had a center...and another 0.5 in the front.

I don't think Mako is really looking for car setup pointers, he's been driving the car long enough at a reasonable prep level that he knows what is comfortable in his car. He's not looking to build a national winning SM WRX.

I tried to drive my SM car much like Tom told Mako. I would run it into a corner, brake hard and then just nail it to dig out of the corner. The car had enough power so it was very good at doing that. Unfortunately the braking wasn't quite good enough so I had to back off quite a bit. If my car would have braked like I wanted it to, I could have been .5-1s faster on some courses. I wouldn't drive a STX WRX that way, it just doesn't have the torque or power to accelerate fast enough out of the corner.

I would run it into a corner, brake hard and then just nail it to dig out of the corner. I tried to drive like this at several local events last year in STX and it really shows the need for a front LSD (even with those incredible rear spring rates ;) ), because that inside front was screaming!

Don't run it into the corner then brake. You should be rotated before the corner and already on the gas and accelerating as you get into the corner ;)

-Tom

He also noted that racing a Subaru (in classes with other strong cars) was always going to be a bit frustrating because everything we do is just a band-aid applied to a brick. He said that there were only a few cars that are really purpose designed for the sport we try to adapt them to: Vetts, Miata, M3's ...
I take issue with that comment. The Vettes, Miatas and MR2s of the world are purpose built from day 1 to turn and go.. but the M3 (a one time motorsports legend) is not. The 3 series, like the impreza, is first and foremost an everyday sedan. Both were conceived with motorsports use in mind, but neither was made without compromise. Other than the 50/50 weight distribution, the M3 is no less a bandaged brick than a WRX STi.

If anything, BMW's ultimate sports sedan proves that bandaging can transform even a brick into a true sportscar.

Thanks for the good read Makofoto. Your threads usually are.

I think I would loosen the car up a bit and adapt your driving to suit. Perhaps the key is getting some rotation but not overdoing it. Jumping from my BSP S2000 into my wife's STX WRX is always an eye opener.

I just like to throw things out there to get a discussion going. :D

STX drivers that have driven my SM WRX are always pretty delighted with it. I had four of them try out my car this weekend ... even though it had an old skinny Hoosier/Victoracer combination on it ... it was still pretty nice compared to their cars. At the last race I beat my buddy Jeff Barco by over 2 seconds. Jeff is our top STX driver in the area at the moment (Josh Sortor beat him by 0.7 seconds at the San Diego Tour, I think that was combined time difference) ... which can mainly be explained by my R tires and front helical Torsen2 front LSD. Jeff and my cars are otherwise very close ... stiffer bushings, coilovers, springs in the 500 range ... except I also have a RevLab steering rack, big brakes and STI IC w/sprayer, and no back seat. Jeffs no doubt a more talented driver. Just pointing out that my car is more a SM/STX hybrid WRX then a "real" SM car like Vic Sia's or Gary's M3's with their huge 335 Kuhmo 710's, good 100 hp more power, 50/50 weight distribution and a number of pounds lighter then me. My goal is to win our local SM class ... and after 4 events I've gone into the lead. But the current champ is putting a new motor into his Camaro ... and he already had 440 hp! I just wonder why he never seems to drive in any of the local National events?

I not convencied that a tight entry into slow corners, requiring an extra loose car is optimal for a power/torque challended car. If you watch other relatively low powered cars ... the more successful drivers often take a line that allows them to maintain speed rather then reduce real estate. Perhaps our cars are different enough (AWD w/ challenged differentials) and in the middle powerwise ... that we have the confusion of choice. Add to that, different levels of skill, experience and prep, besides class and tires ... and courses that require so many decisions and inputs ... and we have delightful chaos. On the other hand ... we have drivers with consistently high results. But we have very successful drivers like Tom Berry and Gary Thomason, both drive ASP Vettes, one insists on left foot braking, the other doesn't. Lots of different ways to skin a cat ... thank god ... gives us a lot to talk about! ;)

My main opponent locally:
http://images8.fotki.com/v148/photos/4/43793/1784256/225Vs-vi.jpg

I hate my car when I see it next to sportier looking cars ... but the results make up for it!
http://images9.fotki.com/v178/photos/4/43793/2097504/autox_21-vi.jpg :huh: :devil:

BMW 3 series cars at least come with a front end that doesn't dial out camber as you turn ... a major handicap on Suby's and most cars in the world. BMW, at least use to have a reputation for being loose because of that ... but I'm sure they've gained more fans and buyers then they've lost by compromising their design. The 50/50 weight distribution is a major item also. They've basically just moved the body back ... so that the front wheels are at the front corners ... and the rear hangs further out in the back ... to achieve that.

What is special about the e36s mac struts that keep it from losing camber? I know mattucci still runs way more camber than you on his 3series and his car is "somewhat" well sorted for dsp.

I not convencied that a tight entry into slow corners, requiring an extra loose car is optimal for a power/torque challended car.

Not in all instances, you'd be right. However, most times it is.

Ever taken an EVO school? Phase 3 and Challenge works on this VERY point. "What's just after the tight stuff?" is the question of which line to take. I paid money to learn the answer... so either take the free advice that people are saying and try it... or not. Your choice. :)

--KC

I don't know much about suspensions but apparently the BMW's just come with more caster then our Suby's. I've got +6 myself now ... and it makes a huge difference. You don't need to start with as much static neg camber to end up with reasonable "mid turn"camber ... which means you will have better braking when your (flatter to the ground) tires are straight ahead.

Some people feel they just always need more. :-) My tire temps are nice ... about 10+ degrees hotter on the inside of the fronts. But I might try backing off on my camber a bit. I've got about -3.9 right now. More the Hoosier recommends ...

If anything, BMW's ultimate sports sedan proves that bandaging can transform even a brick into a true sportscar.

:lol:

... afterall, BMW engineering has nothing to do with it. Bandaging? That's precious. I'll relate that to the bimmer guys I autox with next time I see 'em.

I don't know much about suspensions but apparently the BMW's just come with more caster then our Suby's. I've got +6 myself now ...

The front strut on the BMWs (3 series) actually has a double-jointed type lower mount that produces a significant gain in negative camber when the wheels turn. Hence, even though a typical BMW even has more static camber, this arrangement produces more negative camber in the wheel that needs it that our Subies ever will.

I've done Evo 1 & 2 ... good stuff ... although the Evo 2 that I took, was Evo 1 on a bigger, faster, changing course.

Right ... what follows is what's important ... so ... if what follows a slow corner is say the fastest part of the course ... should one in general try to carry as much speed through the slow corner ... if necessary even adjusting ones entry line to acheive that ... or reduce real estate into the slow corner ? If it's "carry speed," then the popular _generalization_ of cutting off real estate doesn't hold ...

I've done Evo 1 & 2 ... good stuff ... although the Evo 2 that I took, was Evo 1 on a bigger, faster, changing course.

Right ... what follows is what's important ... so ... if what follows a slow corner is say the fastest part of the course ... should one in general try to carry as much speed through the slow corner ... if necessary even adjusting ones entry line to acheive that ... or reduce real estate into the slow corner ? If it's "carry speed," then the popular _generalization_ of cutting off real estate doesn't hold ...
That's also going to determine what comes after the slow stuff.

We had a particularily tight section on Sunday that required you to make this decision. After this super tight section was a 3-cone slalom, that if taken on the inside, meant 2 cones. But if pushed wide out of the section, required that you use all 3 cones on the slalom.

All the faster people that day took the tight line to maximize the next "straight".

To expand more on this. I will show you the correct way, and the incorrect way with a set of sequence pictures. This particular corner was important to take tight because you had a tight left-hander coming up. If you pushed it too much coming out of this exit, you would screw yourself for the unpictured left-hander.

Here, we have myself, taking a fairly tight line. It may look wide at first, but wait until I show you the slow way around it.

http://www.autocrosspictures.net/SCCASolo2Penn042405/SCCASolo2042405_044.JPG

http://www.autocrosspictures.net/SCCASolo2Penn042405/SCCASolo2042405_045.JPG

http://www.autocrosspictures.net/SCCASolo2Penn042405/SCCASolo2042405_046.JPG
A couple or wrong ways.
http://www.autocrosspictures.net/SCCASolo2Penn042405/SCCASolo2042405_055.JPG

http://www.autocrosspictures.net/SCCASolo2Penn042405/SCCASolo2042405_056.JPG

Actually, to conserve bandwidth. Take a look at the pictures on this page. You can witness corner entry and exit. You will notice at the exit how many people are still turning way after they should be going straight.

I'm heading in a straight line while they are still pushing wide trying to get set up for the next turn.

http://www.autocrosspictures.net/SCCASolo2Penn042405/g-0.html

At the last race I beat my buddy Jeff Barco by over 2 seconds.


Mako.......

Over two seconds :huh:

1.793 to be exact :p

And we were the course sweepers for you lucky dogs, who were running on R compounds, Mid Day, on the nice warm blacktop.....

Regardless

You kicked
A
S
S

my freind.... Nice drivin. :)

Here is a nice video with some clips of my car.
http://www.4113pittsburg.com/movies/Various.wmv

Dude! You were the one that was saying 2 seconds on the phone today! And don't call me "freind"in public! :-)

Are you going or not! I thought you said you would find out today ...

Dude! You were the one that was saying 2 seconds on the phone today! And don't call me "freind"in public! :-)

Are you going or not! I thought you said you would find out today ...



:lol: I said (Vaguely (Man I hope thats spelled right, or else KC and Tom are gonna make jokes about me that I don't understand :furious: :p )) "Around Two seconds or something like that"... I was being very casual about the conversation. ;)

I just want ppl to think that U and I are Freinds.... So they think I have someone to talk to besides myself. :D

Ok..... Screw work.... I don't need it.... I can quit this job and goto Attwater. Then after I can't get any more work, (because I burnt the last bridge) I can buy a Hotdog trailer, that I tow behind my Suby, and sell STX dogs durring the events...

The ultimate Autocross Bum.... :disco:

arg ... I just checked out this interesting formula that they use in our local championship series ... and when they add in our last results, my win ... I'm still going to be in 2nd place. FOR NOW!

Series Points = ((500*t)/Time) - 400, where t = fastest class time

Actually Barco has to work on Friday ... probably late ... so I'm going to drive him and his car to Atwater ... five hours ... so he can run Sat. morning. He figures if Tom can stay up all night partying ... then he should be able to function after sleeping in his car.

I just hope Jeff keeps his hands off of me. Might be stupid sharing a room with him. Here he is giving Mark Coleman a lap dance ... after just one beer!
http://images8.fotki.com/v140/photos/4/43793/1630552/NotTEAMblewApproved-vi.jpg

Ok .... thats it! I'm taking your camera away. :furious:

Incriminating photos of me drinking, autocrossing and cavorting (New word for me). :rolleyes:

Do you realize, that you have just ruined my Political Career. :(

Wait .... Thats not me... Thats Norm Roberts! :devil:


Mako,

If I get off work before 11pm we will go.

And that was my 8th beer. I'm not that easy.... :lol:

-Team AXDUI- Black Sheep Racing :devil:

HA!!!

You can't take my camera away from me ... I'm japanese ... it's an appendage off my body ... :p

:lol:

... afterall, BMW engineering has nothing to do with it. Bandaging? That's precious.My point was just that they're still sedans. It's not meant as a cut toward BMWs or 'Hans & the boys' (whom I have a lot of respect for). I was talking about the platform. The discussion is about cars in SM where the suspension attachment points are the only restrictions. All that I was saying is that BMW made their 'brick' into a true sportscar.. the term "bandaging" was used tongue-in-cheek in regards to Tom Berry's comment. I don't see why Subarus should be excluded from playing with the big dogs when there's already an underdog proving that it can be done.. and done damn well.

Side note: Not all 3 series have the same means for extra camber under tight steering angles. My e21 project car has very basic Macpherson struts with a peculiar front control arm that uses the swaybar as a fore-aft stay. Also the semi-trailing arm\chapman strut rear suspension of the e21, e30 and Z3 aren't exactly ideal for racing purposes.

Hey Mako!

Tom Berry actually told me to tighten up the SRT-4.

Guess I got a little carried away trying to make a plowing pig loose.

He also noted that racing a Subaru (in classes with other strong cars) was always going to be a bit frustrating because everything we do is just a band-aid applied to a brick. He said that there were only a few cars that are really purpose designed for the sport we try to adapt them to: Vetts, Miata, M3's ...

So our cars are ****? :(

...Side note: Not all 3 series have the same means for extra camber under tight steering angles. My e21 project car has very basic Macpherson struts with a peculiar front control arm that uses the swaybar as a fore-aft stay. Also the semi-trailing arm\chapman strut rear suspension of the e21, e30 and Z3 aren't exactly ideal for racing purposes.

I can attest from first-hand experience that the Z3 is prone to snap oversteering. I've also seen a few do the same snap oversteer maneuver at an autox course; in fact repeating each other.