Really, it boggles my ming that people think a stock wing (dealer option stuff or even the dreaded home-made sheet metal variety) on a stock car is going to make a difference, especially at 50-60mph :rolleyes: .

I mean if someone has a wing for looks and admits its for that purpose, then more power to them. But when you see a VTEC Type-R Civic Ferrari with that crap and the guy swears its necessary for his 120hp street racing league...it makes me sick.

And this just isnt against ricers but anyone who believes that and im sure wherever you live its an issue but in MB the performance to rice ratio is EXETREMLY low. Add in the tourists with their fagged-out rally paint jobs and it makes it worse.

Got a little off topic. Anyway, thoughts on wings?

I would have to agree that ungodly HUGE wings serve ZERO purpose... but hey if they want to waste THAT much money on looks over performance... All the better for me to smoke em... (Of course I don't street race ;))...

Mike
#25

(Topic seems a little inflamable... IBTL)

"(Topic seems a little inflamable... IBTL)"

Nah. Well since this is a Subaru forum, yeah. A similar topic was discussed at clubsi and all hell broke loose but when you think about the kind of car enthusiasts(?) that visit that page its not hard to guess why.

I had a guy in a Civic Si tell me it was a boost to his performancxe in his car when he was racing. When I pressed him for details, he couldnt really say why, i then explained to him that most likely it was causing him to lose speed in racing. The wing will actually help to lift the front wheels off the ground, and that will result in loss of traction, ie, loss of speed. Thats what cinfuses me, people in front wheel drive cars that think the monstrous wing on the back actually helps them. if they want something to help, put a wing on the nose.

I used to think the same thing about factory spoilers until I went through a car wash one day, and when the drying fans came on, each time they swept over the rear wing, it made the car squat down at least an inch. They do serve a purpose!:D

Guys who put huge wings on cars are like fat women in spandex; everyone is in on the joke except for them.

I say let 'em go wild; there's never too much laughter in my day.

Although, I always have wanted to rice out a Chevette or something similarly ridiculous. License plate: "THUG4LIFE".

Well, I hate to spoil the party, but wings, well spoilers do serve a purpose. The RS wing for example doesnt provide for downforce, but will negate lift at highway speeds. While for most folks this is not a huge factor, if you are actually doing racing it could mean the difference between making that corner and going into the wall.

I agree that 99% of people have to real use for wings, and a great many aftermarket wings are poorly designed to even negate lift. However, dont dismiss the usefulness of a wing even at relatively low speed in actual track conditions. (And we aint talking auto-x here)

Originally posted by Midwayman
Well, I hate to spoil the party, but wings, well spoilers do serve a purpose. The RS wing for example doesnt provide for downforce, but will negate lift at highway speeds. While for most folks this is not a huge factor, if you are actually doing racing it could mean the difference between making that corner and going into the wall.

I agree that 99% of people have to real use for wings, and a great many aftermarket wings are poorly designed to even negate lift. However, dont dismiss the usefulness of a wing even at relatively low speed in actual track conditions. (And we aint talking auto-x here)

sounds like someones got a big goofy wing and doesn't wanna admit it :lol: ;)

I like my factory wing. It provides a nice finish to the otherwise boxy looking tail of the car without that outrageously large touring wing look. Speaking of which, check out this pic of a Subaru JDM touring style wing. I found it at Subaru Customize World (http://accessory.subaru.co.jp/impreza/catalog/index.html)

http://accessory.subaru.co.jp/impreza/catalog/image/i-035.jpg

Well...if you really want to know the purpose of wings, this month's SCC covers Downforce in the Performance Dictionary section. They give a pretty detail explanation on the whole thing.

"Even at relatively slow speeds, a little bit of downforce can make a significant difference"...SCC

Of course, I'm not saying those people in Camries and Accords with giant double blade GT wings look cool...so please don't flame me. LOL


Ben T.

i got my wing cuz it looks cool...

i got it cuz i like it and um... could really care less what anyone else thinks about it...

performance? it adds none. zero. zip. zilcho. nada.
but who cares? i dont... it looks COOL! hahaha :lol:


oh and by the way :)

this thread has already been reported to all mods once... so we'll be watchin closely for the flame war to erupt... keep it clean and it stays... keep it on topic and in focus and it stays... stray from that??? it becomes a memory

Subie *big friggin wings are cool* Gal
www.subiegal.com

flame war seems to be on topic from me 'Lets argue'

seems like flame war would be on topic to me

but anyway
personaly i DO think that many of the wings if done right look good

some times it's over done...on civics w/ 3 tier wings etc

or that generic wing that EVERYONE puts on they're talon that flares out w/ 2 levels

but many times it does look good if paired w/ a matching body kit

it's bad when there's a really boxy body kit and a smooth wing or a smooth body kit and a boxy wing..

Midway has made a valid point, that a wing on the rear of a car does not have to create any measureable down force to add to the stability of the car, if the car has a tendency to create a low pressure region over the decklid, as almost all cars likely do. All the wing/spoiler has to do is disrupt the smooth flow over the rear of the car that is creating the low pressure region to reduce the possibility of rear end lift. The added turbulent/attached flow at the rear windscreen might mitigate drag due to separated flow, but that depends on how far upstream the effects of the wing/spoiler travel. Whether it produces actual downforce is a secondary issue, as producing a force towards the ground will necessitate a more refined design to make it efficient enough to reduce drag. interested persons could check the local campus bookstore/library for automotive or aircraft aerodynamics texts. I've never read an automotive aerodynamics textbook, but I think it would be very interesting to see where the theories overlap.

I don't think that any of you should be saying 'this wing works' and 'this wing doesn't work' until you go and wind tunnel test them all.:rolleyes:

No windtunnel testing needed. Any of you that own a 2.5RS just remove the rear wing and drive the same bends you allways drive at 100 mph. You WILL feel the car unsettle at the rear. BTDT.

Besides this I have a testreport here from a German car magazin proving the working of the rear wing. It's rated as VERY effective. Tests were done at approx 120 mph.

Nico van Steen
Netherlands
MY99 555blue Impreza turbo
MY00 black Mitsu Lancer EVO VI

Well, the bigger the wing you see on a FWD car the dumber the driver is. As we all know the rear wing makes downforce necessary for the rear wheels to keep them glued to the dround. But on the FWD you'd need more downforce on the front end since those are your powering wheels. Now if the wing is big enough then the front will start losing contact with the ground and make the guy go slower than hes supposed to. So I usually laugh at all those guys who look tough and sporty in their supra wings on geo's and kia's and neon's all wannabe import fighters.

has anyone seen the wings they put on the TT's after the recall.

they are tiny put provide enough wind diflection to keep people from spinning out at 80mph.

If you don't like spoilers don't buy one, and laugh at people who do. I think some of them look good and some of them don't. I don't think I need an aftermarket wing for Auto-x's, but that GT style wing on the WRX rules. I can think of some thing else to buy for that much money... COBB cams hehehehehe

If I had a civic I would try to make mine as different as possible...
there are so many of them

Wings on Front wheel drive cars are useless, and will probably DECREASE the performance because you are lifting the front end up at high speed. Hence decrease traction to your front wheels. Big wings are all look and no go on street cars. But if we are talking about F1 and GT...

Wings on Front wheel drive cars are useless, and will probably DECREASE the performance because you are lifting the front end up at high speed. Hence decrease traction to your front wheels.

Well, I dont think civics can reach that high of speed to see decreasing traction...:lol:...

-justin

--let the flames begin--

I have a 97 GT that is stock as far as body. I think it looks good with the spoiler and it is also a good place to stick the third brake light. As for all the H's; the wings look stupid to me but if thats what they like who cares. You know what they say about a man who needs a big wing.
stoopidMOMO- At least they have a car.

BTCC cars and the like are FWD and have wings, not huge but still have wings. Planting the back of the car down a little is a good thing no matter what wheels are driven. I find it hard to believe that the front wheels are actually lifted off the ground by the downforce produced by these wings. Even if the wing does cause that much downforce, the frame would bend enough to keep the front wheels planted fine.

rear wings (even huge ones) don't provide enough downforce to even insignificantly lift the front of the car for reduced traction. wings DO slow cars down though because they increase the drag coefficent.

Wings will slow down cars because they increase drag a significant amount (when 0.1 is the difference between a poor drag coefficient and a very good one) as well as increase the weight of the car. This is why a recent review of the WRX applauded Subaru for not making a wing standard for a true performance car.

This doesn't mean I'm not getting a spoiler for my wagon, or wouldn't get one for the sedan.

it all depends. Sorry to disappoint everyone, but aerodynamics is not that simple. Some wings can help (yes, even at 50-60mph), and some wings hurt. Most of the "rice" wings probably hurt. Ant WRX is correct that you cannot say which ones work/don't work without a wind tunnel (or computational fluid dynamics). Professionals (and maybe you too) can make educated guesses, but nobody is smart enough to know for sure.

There is a popular misconception that cars have downforce. Very few do. Most cars actually generate lift which causes drag. Wings can be very effective at decreasing the lift and the drag. However, adding one to a stock car can also unsettle the car. Car manufacturers put a lot of effort into giving cars close to a 50/50 front/rear weight balance AND aerodynamic balance. Just adding a wing can upset that. Also adding a lip spoiler can rebalance the aerodynamics.

As for the argument that wings hurt FWD cars by lifting the front wheels. What a load of cr@p. Think about this: a wing mounted 2 ft behind the rear wheels. If it produces a force of 40lbs downward (I'm being generous), it would effectively lift at the front wheels ~10lbs. Do you think that makes a difference when there is ~1600lbs of weight on the wheels? Does it hurt RWD cars less? No. When do you really need the most traction at the front wheels (in a FWD car)? When you're taking off from the line. Wings do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING at 0mph.

And in case anyone was wondering, I have a BS in Aeronautical Engineering and worked at a wind tunnel for 4 years where I helped Ford develop their production and race cars. I have read books on race car aerodynamics. I would consider myself to be fairly knowledgable (although, not flawless).

Personally, I'd like to put an STi GT wing and a lip spoiler on my car. Now, if only I had about $1500 to blow :lol:

Micah

HIHO- "At least they have a car."
So true. I could get something now but I want to wait a bit longer (when I have more cash) to get something better. Got my heart set on a WRX or RS, either this MY or next. Really anything would be better then Crazy Earls Used Cars.

Great posts so far, keep it up eveybody.

Heres my little rule of thumb:

"Your wing should never be more extravagent then your car, and certanly never more extravagent then your engine."

Any car with intake exhaust and headers in a N/A 4, does not deserve some huge carbon kevlar blade across the back. Now a fully built supra twin turbo, maybe.

But when i see N/A 2.5 rs's rocking the larger then life JDM wings well i cant help but thunk that people are laughing just as hard at them as at the Fighter Jet Wing civic guys.
Save the huge downforce for when your car is truely "Race-Worthy".

-DoomEquation

Pease join 'The DoomEquation Foundation to Help Keep Ridiculously Big Wings off Daily Drivers'

I haven't read any of the responses so I apolgize if this comment has been made....... why do hondas have huge rear wings when they are front wheel drives?

I put a spoiler on the back of mine for 100% looks. The rear of the car simply looks unfinished without it. Does that mean I have (insert word that sounds like mice) my car. Maybe. If it does in fact provide enhanced handling then great. I don't expect that it would.

I have a nitro awd 1:10 scale remote control car. I can say for 100% certainty different body styles make a big difference in terms of handling. And without the spoiler attatched on those bodies you can't turn nearly as sharp as with it on. I beleive the verticle slants have more impact than anything.

With that being said, the questions are Is the wing effective and if so at what speeds? My 1:10 nitro car cruises at around 45-50MPH, put those speeds to scale. Is that when the spoiler benefits can be noticed?

Just wondering, and just my .02

keep it reasonable....=)

low profile always looks best...and also keeps cops lookin fo other cars~

hehehe

Who said wings on FF is useless?
Come on, all the cars need grip on all the tires!
Would you want to drive a car with slick tires on front and stock tires on the rear? It'll spin like crazy. Same thing to the wing, the grip has to be balanced front to rear and often in FF cars rear end is light so rear wants to lift up at the corners.
I'm not saying rice wing makes sense I think those are stupid, but sometimes especially on twisty road, having a rear wing on FF is not a bad idea.

but...yes... r*ceboy only goes straight so rear wing won't matter...

Actually no. Mine is completely stock. I only autocross. If I was using my car on the track you can bet Id get a nice aluminum adjustable wing, but none of that silly bi-level crap.

Originally posted by nomadtw


sounds like someones got a big goofy wing and doesn't wanna admit it :lol: ;)

Actually all the Subaru wings *have* been wind tunnel tested. The results were linked to from a previous discussion.

Originally posted by Ant WRX
I don't think that any of you should be saying 'this wing works' and 'this wing doesn't work' until you go and wind tunnel test them all.:rolleyes:

I saw a WRX last month with a 3 stage wing.

It was about a foot taller than the roof of the car and stuck out on either side.

I was dismayed, to say the least.

The '02 rex actually looks pretty nice without a wing, however the factory wing is very tasteful and helps fill out the ass end of the car nicely.

From an aesthetic point of view.

I personally think wing is a good addition to your car, as long as it matches and at least looks acceptable (meaning not outrageous looking). I have heard that if your car has an acceptable and working wing (maybe the factory ones?) and you do highway miles alot, that could have an impact on gas mileage. Can't be certained, but all my old cars did turn out better since I did at least 300 miles weekly back in the old days (though not by too much).

I also agreed that wing at take off doesn't do much, just like the theory of airplane I guess. Hey, subie always have the bigger factory wings to choose from right?! So we are pretty lucky compared to the others that have to steal other designs or just borrow wings from others (like a supra wing on a neon for example).

Feel free to correct me :)

-Alan

i acutally get alot of comments from people about my 00's stock wing (the taller one) every one so far has mentioned how it isn't ricey and it fits perfectly with the car, wether or not it is helpful i have no clue, i think it just looks nice :D

Maybe I should get rid of the stock spoiler on my car. But then I would lose the special wax holder for my car (when i wax of course).

I noticed that on the Mercedes sedans has a slight bumb at the end of trunk. I'm guessing that it there to serve what the spoiler does on other cars, which is to reduece the drag coefficent. It's an excellent design because its cheaper, and it doesn't block the rear view window like the spoiler on my car.

Have to say though, spoilers on some cars (like the prelude and 00 celica) just make it look much better. Might not help performance, and it might even distrupt the aerodynamics of the car, but dammit it looks so boxy without that small spoiler.

Just because the purpose of a wing is to reduce lift or create downforce at the rear wheels doesn't mean that every aftermarket wing will have that effect on every car. As others have said, some wings may actually unsettle the car at higher speeds.
Some wings do add to the appearance of a car but most detract from it in my opinion. I can tell those of you with huge, boy racer wings on your Imprezas, most people are laughing and snickering at you. I know, I know. You don't care what other people think.(right):rolleyes:

I just have the stock wing on my RS, and I like it because it's usually at the perfect level to block the headlights from the car behind me.

But if you're looking for a bigger, more effective wing, check out this link.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc2/mycoffeecan/page3.html
(sorry if it's been posted before)

Originally posted by brucelee

http://www.nsxfiles.com/images/vc2001_ruf_rear_med.jpg

I had one of those on my old Corrolla! :D

:rolleyes:

dead horse... fishy??? where is the dead horse???

j.

I've got it around here somewhere...

but too lazy to post it..


Insert pic of beefjerky looking dead horse here